PROS & CONS of Spray Foam Insulation | PART 2
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- čas přidán 4. 08. 2024
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In my last video, we discussed the differences between open and closed cell polyurethane spray foam. Their chemical compositions, physical properties and performance. Today, we’re going to cover the pros and cons of both types of spray foam. I’m going to incorporate your feedback and answer your questions from the previous video.
Chapters
0:00 Introduction
0:35 R Value
1:05 Air Sealing
1:39 Energy Savings
1:58 Closed Cell Foam
2:28 Lifespan
2:51 Evolution
4:03 Cost
4:39 Sound Insulation
5:46 R value
6:14 Permanence
6:42 Environment
7:13 Fire resistance
7:27 Building System
8:39 Preparation
10:12 Conclusion
Let’s start with the advantages of spray foam.
R VALUE - R value is the measure of resistance to the flow of heat. Open cell foam has a good R value of 3.5 per inch, but closed cell foam has an excellent R value of 6 per inch.
AIR SEALING - 1 to 1.5 inches of closed cell foam can act as an air barrier while 3 to 3.5 inches of open cell spray foam acts as an air barrier.
ENERGY SAVINGS - It is estimated to reduce heating and cooling costs by up to 40%.
CLOSED CELL FOAM - Closed cell foam is good in areas prone to severe weather like flooding, storm surges and high winds
EVOLUTION - The spray foam industry is constantly evolving because it is under unrelenting scrutiny.
Now the disadvantages of spray foam.
COST - Spray foam has a high upfront cost, around 3 times more than traditional fiberglass insulation. A rough estimate is 50 cents to 1 dollar per board foot of open cell spray foam and $1.5 to $3 for closed cell foam.
SOUND - The hardened foam also binds layers together which couples the wall elements. This can increase sound transfer.
R VALUE - Since the R value test is biased towards fibrous insulation, the spray foam may not meet the minimum code requirements.
THERMAL BRIDGING - If you don’t use a layer of continuous insulation on the outside of a building, and only spray foam in between studs, those will act as a thermal bridge and reduce the overall performance of the wall assembly.
PERMANENCE - Spray foam adheres to the substrate it is sprayed on and cannot be scraped off easily. Any renovations to the building’s structure in the future are going to be very difficult.
ENVIRONMENT - Polyurethane spray foam is a long-term use plastic that plays a vital role in the decarbonization of homes.
FIRE - Neither open cell nor closed cell spray foam are fire resistant. However, they do have some flame retardant chemicals.
BUILDING SYSTEM - Spray foam needs an ERV or energy recovery ventilation system, a fresh-air ventilation system or a dehumidifier to draw clean, fresh air into a home and remove stale air.
HEALTH - PPE or personal protective equipment is vital when using spray foam. Exposure to spray foam before complete curing can lead to asthma, sensitization, lung damage, breathing problems, skin & eye irritation.
PREPARATION - If spray foam is undersprayed, it pulls away from sides, allows air infiltration and reduces R value. Overspraying can lead to messy floors and damaged studs.
RATIO - An excess of Part A isocyanates will result in a glassy cell structure, brittleness or friability. It will easily break into smaller pieces. An excess of Part B resin will result in soft and spongy foam with a lower density than the manufacturer's specifications.
But the one thing that terrifies me about spray foam is that it is not a DIY friendly product, despite what novices on CZcamsrs tell you. It is very messy and requires a lot of experience to get it right. Mixing the chemicals is an exact science with a small margin of error. Spray foam experts are trained for weeks on the proper methods of spraying. I’m worried about spray foam deteriorating or off-gassing behind a wall without you knowing. I was on the fence about spray foam’s future in the construction industry until I visited Ambit’s lab here in Dallas and spoke to the chemists. I have a whole new respect for the product.
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#sprayfoam #insulation #proscons #fiberglass #rockwool #diy #diyremodel #flippedhouse #buildingscience #stem - Věda a technologie
I have been following your channel for a while, and I amazed by the amount of work, research, dedication, that you put into it. The result is information for your viewers that is difficult to come by otherwise, unless spending an inordinate amount of time.
Thank you!!
I'm now a home builder in the US, after doing commercial and residential construction in Alberta for the last 16 years. As the owner, I've been in a unique position to try many different things. When Alberta implemented its 'Energy Efficiency Program' 6-7 years ago, it caused many of us incredible headaches. While there may have been some builders involved in drawing it up, It was obviously written mainly by people who have probably never built anything.
The incredible R value requirements (R21 wall average, R68 attic if no HRV, etc.) pushed insulation manufacturers to make almost mythical claims on their products, which of course cost many times what standard products had cost.
This forced me into spray foam considerations.
After tons of research (which I was happy to see recently corroborated on your own channel!), I've settled on the 'flash and batt' method for buildings here in Missouri.
Assuming all new construction is 2x6 exterior wall (I'm appalled to say that most builders are still using 2x4 in this area, but it will never happen on one of my builds), I start with 2 inches of closed cell foam. This gives me the increase in rigidity, the vapor barrier on the outside of the cavity, as well as wind proofing. I'm now still able to wire the building because there is 3.25" of cavity remaining open. When everything is done, we finish off the space with craft-faced R-12 fiberglass.
I DO NOT like fiberglass insulation. It is one of the most misunderstood and overestimated products in the history of building. However, by placing it on the 'warm side' of 2 inches of CC foam, we've negated its weaknesses. First, there is no draft, so it actually works. Second, it never gets very cold so its actual rating doesn't stray too far from the factory R-value determined at ~70°F.
I'm about to finish a house with this method used, and am expecting my thermal imaging camera to show up any day. I'll be sure to post the results.
Belinda, thanks so much for all the work you're doing!
Interested to see your results!
Hi! I'm in KC planning a build the same way you've described. Can you tell me how it ended up working out?
I’m in St. Louis. I live in a historic full masonry building built in 1903, and have also settled on flash and batt with rock wool as per Section 5.4 in NREL “Measure Guideline: Internal Insulation of Masonry Walls.“ I am only able to fur out selected walls with 2 x 4s, so this limits what I can do to achieve R15 or greater. As I understand it, St. Louis is in ASHRAE Climate Zone 4. According to Fine Homebuilding “Why Flash and Batt Makes Sense,” I should use 1 1/2” closed cell spray foam in Zone 5. They don’t mention Zone 4. This leaves me 2” in my stud spaces. Rock Wool makes a 2” thick batt in their AFB Acoustic Fire Batt line. It is R-3.7/inch. So the flash and batt should give me about R17 in toto. I will not be able to afford to pay someone to insulate these exterior walls for me, so I will be learning to use Dow Froth-Pak insulation, which is closed cell. I found a good price at Industrial Products. I would not want to use a Kraft faced fiberglass in my situation because the spray foam already provides a vapor barrier and the Kraft backing would add a second vapor barrier.
As a general contractor for over 40 years, I am very impressed with both open cell and closed cell spray foam. Having used it in my own personal residence building on the Southern Coast I couldn't be more happier as it's super energy efficient giving us utility costs at least 75% less than our last home where we used rock-wool in walls and ceilings. We choose a professional who was top notch on the mixing, and product knowledge and it paid off handsomely in positive results. Great video, keep up your insightful posts.
A university built two identical houses in an Ontario neighbourhood and spray foamed one and traditionally insulated the other. After two years (heating/cooling cycles) they found the spray foamed house used about 50% of the energy as the other. That is a lot less gas, oil and/or hydro being used. I would post the link, but i read about this a couple of years ago.
I own a spray foam company. One thing I will note here off what you said about not being able to add plumbing and electrical after application. When using closed cell, you can easily aff after the fact many things. In a 2x6 cavity, we are typically spraying 3 inches ( zone 7) leaving 2.5 inch of wall left to aff a wire or apex plumbing after is some changes need to be made.
Air sealing a home in a warm, humid environment is tricky, but when managed correctly with HVAC we end up with lower humidity levels in summer, and higher humidity levels in winter (both relative to poorly sealed homes). I have a single story home with exterior ICF walls and a sealed attic, at about 5000 square feet of interior space with an average plate height of 11 feet, dropping the J load requirements from 11 tons to only 3 tons allowed me to afford a geothermal system (with a tax incentive). Which allowed me to also use a desuperheater for lower hot water costs. Supplemented with thermal solar water heat, I pay almost nothing for hot water, and my total HVAC costs over time are dramatically lower than a conventional home. When my geo thermal system inevitably dies, the loop field is still in tact so it’s just an equipment swap rather than loosing the total cost of installation.
Foam makes this all possible. There may be other ways to achieve similar results, but not easy or inexpensive.
Another factor is comfort level. The stable air, noise reduction, humidity levels, and solid feel of all this apparatus just makes for better living.
Idk anything about architecture or civil engineering but find your channel really interesting. Congrats on reaching almost 200k subscribers!
Thank you!
Thank you! I'm deciding between spray foam and other options on my bus build so this video was right on cue. Your evaluations always seem honest and helpful. Please keep it up!
For insulating a vehicle use closed cell foam. And DO NOT USE THAT STUFF YOU CAN BUY AT THE LUMBERYARD! Those cans, even the tanks they sell at lumberyards are meant for sealing cracks and joints not for doing large areas. Figure for every square foot of foam you’re adding approximately 3 pounds of weight to the vehicle. For what you have in mind find a licensed and bonded spray foam insulation professional.
@@jamesmchugo9422 Thanks James! Yes, I'll definitely have it professionally done if I go that route. There's another consideration specific to vehicles that I'm looking into - squeakiness! Ours is a shuttle bus and the original foam board insulation made an awful racket as the bus flexed and shook. If the spray foam does the same from either delamination or just from its contact to covering materials that's a show stopper for us.
@@JordanWorkshop I should have asked, are you insulting for temperature or sound? The foam will give you the best R value, but it’s garbage for sound. If your primary concern is sound look into sound deadening mats. They’re not cheap, but will stop just about all noises from the frame and body. Some even help with temperature insulting as well. Just google sound deadening mats or automotive sound dampening. Good luck.
@@jamesmchugo9422 It's for temperature insulation. I just don't want it to also sound like I'm in an aviary while driving down the road.
@@JordanWorkshop you may want to use a combination of the mats for sound proofing and foam for temperature control. Good luck with your project.
What a terrific resource you are for accurate, unbiased information! 👍
Thank you for this detailed pro and con look at spray foam. Many points I had not considered before.
Belinda! Would you be interested in making a video on “straw bale” construction? Thanks for making and sharing the content you do!
I love the depth of the information about one subject! Thank you
Our company installs closed-cell SPF and your video is very accurate and balanced, thanks for sharing this information!
Thanks, Matthew!
@@BelindaCarr And how much were you paid for this one sided review - what a joke!
@@Lotan-in8og Hardly one sided. She clearly explains both pro and con with lots of context and good general information. In contrast, you offered nothing.
@@MrTeff999 No mention of the health Implications, environmental issues, etc., is this your idea of all rounded review? But if your American then your not worried drinking lead water, eating hormone beef, breathing in toxic PFAs, etc…. You have currently the shortest lifespan of any human in the civilised western democracies….
@@Lotan-in8og 1) Lead in the water -- The US is a very large country. Not everyplace in it has lead in the water. Drinking water is generally handled at the local and state level, as was the case in Michigan that you apparently heard about. Most American's, including me, believe that all people should have access to clean water. I support our president's infrastructure plan that includes money for replacing lead pipes. 2) I don't eat animal products that have been treated with hormones or antibiotics, nor do I eat farm raised fish, and I don't believe other people should do so either. 3) I do what I can to protect the air, which is why I power my house with solar panels and drive an EV, among other things. 4) The fact that so many American's are unhealthy and America's healthcare system is bad, is a huge concern for me. But I personally have excellent health, I'm extremely fit, and I expect to live a very long life. So get off your high horse and don't bother sending me any more of your overly generalized and insulting rants.
I'm very glad that you had the post asking why this video didn't do so well... I was another in belief of this being the same video as 'part 1'.
Thanks for the information Belinda. I always appreciate your thorough information.
I'm going to subscribe. It's very hard to find intelligent well explained answers online.
Love your deep dives into building materials and methods. It may be common knowledge to experts, but it’s nice for us lay people to have a jumping off point for planning.
Thanks!
Great presentation, kept my attention to the end.
Excellent as usual Belinda.
Another great video! Thanks, Belinda!
I learn a lot from your channel Belinda. Thank you.
Same here!
I did not even know that open-cell foams exists before the lady's videos. This is because I only ever see closed-cell foams sold in my place.
Amazing insights!
-What a great video!
I stumbled upon your channel researching spray foam. There are so many different opinions regarding spray foam that it can make your head spin! I am currently building a new home and almost went with conventional insulation until my HVAC encouraged me to research spray foam further. Your video was the most helpful I've seen, taking a scientific approach to explain how it works along with the pros and cons of each type and it's misconceptions. Thank you!
Well done and thank you for a very intelligent and well presented video. 👍. And a good piece on the pros and cons and doing your research. 😉👍
You're videos are so amazing! Thank you for this content
20th time watching this. Love nerding out w/ Brenda! Plus I have a current project with spray foam.
Great information! I have a house being built (should be done near the end of May), and the builder is using spray foam and air sealing it. The house is all electric and looks to have really good air flow. From watching the video, I feel better about the spray foam and how energy efficient it should be.
"I predict an HGTV series...." hilarious! Great information!
A consideration for me in renovating my house was that if I had a leak develop in the roof, a nail backing out or other minor leak source, it would be very hard to find behind the monolithic structure of a foam seal. Water can run for amazing distances and is unrelenting. This compounded with possible mold problems accompanying the possible leak put me off. What has worked amazingly well is a radiant heat barrier.(I’m in south Florida.) it is relatively cheap, easy to install and very effective. A builder told me he could tell which homes under construction in a development had the barrier as in the late afternoon, the work crew congregated in those shells/houses as they were consistently 10-15 degrees F cooler, windows and doors or not. I could see spraying to seal to control air flow and doing the bulk of my insulation with a radiant barrier and conventional battens in the attic floor. A composite approach.
You are amazing! Very insightful and informative. I actually feel lucky I found your channel :-)
Well spoken and well throughout 👍
I had my basement walls spray foamed approx 3 years ago. It’s an old stone foundation. The results were and are very good.
Awesome insight as usual. Thank you for your balanced input.
Thanks for all your work. Legend.
I lived in Canberra in the 70s, I married and had children there.
We had a house built, and having moved in decided insulation was in order. We were using bottled gase fo heating, the bottle was a permanent fixture and ESSO came around and refilled it as required. We were using a fill every week or two.
We had the expert come round and fill the exterior wall spaces with urea formaldehyde foam. It was highly effectiv, we went from using one fill every week or two to using about one a year. The delivery driver thought we'd changed to electric heating.
There was some concern about formaldehyde escaping (not at our place), measurements showed it settled down to background in a few days. It happened, we went away for a while after the job was done.
The foam is no longer used, but urea formaldehyde is used in gluing plywood, particle board and MDF, with similar results to the air inside homes.
A video on cob and strawbale construction pros and cons would be helpful for those who do not want any petrochemicals whatsoever in their home construction, and who live in Northern colder climates. Love your videos and hope you have a wonderful day
Thanks, Jason. I'll work on that topic!
Well done and thanks for your very detailed video!
Thank you! Great video!
In 2018 we began a gut-rehab of two adjacent buildings we joined together (one 100+ years and one built in late 60s). We used mainly closed cell foam. Our heating and cooling costs are low. Our bedrooms are on the third floor of the 100+ year old building and the temperature at night remains consistent within the building...the other day we had a sunny warm day and a cool night. The temperature -- with no heating or cooling -- remained between 74 and 72 degrees f while the outside temp dropped to 61 degrees. Enjoy your thorough analysis of building materials and methods.
Super helpful, thank you!
Belinda, another job (video) well done, thank you.
Very interesting stuff! My curiosity of spray foam insulation comes from the diyers making schoolies and tiny houses, since their wall cavities have to be so much thinner than standard homes. I'd love to hear your review on light straw clay or wood chip/slip! Similar insulation system to hempcrete(loved your video on that!), But uses a more accessible and potentially local fiber source.
I like that spray foam has become better on the environment, but I feel it is still a "kick the can down the road" approach on end of product life. Won't have to deal with landfill problems if we use natural materials and stop adding to the landfills in the first place.
Also, I've seen some amazing things being done with mushrooms the past 5 years or so, I wonder if mushroom/mycelium insulation is in our future!
It's the ever ongoing fight between ease of use, cost, performance, longevity and environmental issues. Personally I like glass fiber and rockwool as they have a very low environmental footprint and are stable compounds that doesn't rot, burn or can be digested by bugs or animals. It's primary environmental impact is in the manufacturing where it takes a lot of energy to melt the source materials and blow the fine fibers that makes up the wool. Then there's transportation, but that's more or less the same for most of these materials. It could be argued that spray foam probably has less of this as it's transported in liquid form that on use is expanded to something between 30 to 100 times the volume. Sure both glass and rock wool eventually ends up on the landfill, but they are not more toxic than glass, sand or stone.
Any material with organic compounds will degrade over time, and are often susceptible to mold, rot and being eaten by mice or bugs. They also tend to be flammable in their "pure" state and require chemical treatment to become flame retardant. Chemical treatments can also be used to make them more resistant to rot, mold and bugs.
Now don't get me wrong. I'm not claiming that chemicals equal bad. It has to do with exactly what the chemicals are. After all most everything can be called a chemical. If it's used in or causes a chemical reaction it is a chemical, and it doesn't matter where it comes from or how it's produced. All I'm saying is that a lot of these products need additional treatments to be safe and sound for long term use, and whatever is used for that has to be accounted for when looking at environmental impact and how safe a product is to use. Sometimes things can surprise you, such as wood based products without any added chemicals that outgases and can cause problems. That's not what you probably expected hearing something was made from wood.
Every new product has to be tested and investigated before it can be said to be better than the existing products. After all we don't want to end up with something that has to be treated with kids gloves like Asbestos. That is a material with wonderful properties. It can be solid or a fiber, and it's very stable so it ages well. It doesn't burn, rot or get infestations and it's cheap. All in all it's a close to perfect material with just that itty bitty little problem that it is very likely to cause lung cancer if you breathe in the dust...
Another issue that has to be considered are allergens. Products such as glass fiber and rockwool doesn't release any allergens by them selves. I've seen wet insulation that's been sprouting mold however, and that can be nasty. Another thing is the small particles that can be released in the air if you cut or rip these materials. I've not really looked into it but I can't see that breathing that in can be in any way a good thing. So that's a mark against glass and rock wool.
As for spray foam I can't really make any good arguments for or against other than what was mentioned in the video. Instinctively I want to put it in the nasty chemicals category, but apparently it isn't quite as bad as my gut wants to think. To me spray foam feels like such a new tech that I'm suspicious. It's not logical or reasonable, so I try to ignore the feeling.
Great overview of spray foam! I definitely like its ability to insulate against the smallest crevices that rock wool or more traditional insulation might miss, and even though both traditional and spray foam products will eventually find their way to landfill, I definitely don’t like the idea of how messy it would be during destruction. I wish destruction of housing were more green. The lumber from an older house may still be good to an extent. Perhaps not for building a new house but perhaps it can be repurposed more. That said, even considering repurposing building materials comes with a cost.
The video "Spray Foam Insulation - The Ugly Truth?" has great info to.
When I asked a chemical manufacture that makes spray foam the best (marine) foams under ideal conditions are 95% close cell. This means 5% or more of the cells can absorb moisture. The industry came up with open cell to try and deal with the water issue but open cell is an even worse sponge. Spray foam is great if there's never a chance of it coming in contact with moisture.
Belinda you amaze me! Thank you for all your research you explain so much. My new home is getting closed cell foam thanks to you. PS you’re pretty cute too!
Very informative as always! You don't miss any details!
Thanks!
What are you talking about ? Health, dangerous chemicals, enviromental issues… it is obvious you have no handle on the issues?
Love your channel. Keep up the great content.:)
I love this channel
Great video as always Belinda. I have some I sight from across the pond for you. Here in Belgium houses are 99% brick and mortar I'd say. Probably even more. So spray foam is mainly used in the floor. Under in floor heating. Most of the negative press around spray foam centers around bad applications that start to sag after time.
I've also seen it called "the asbestos of our age".
Whoa, instead of blaming the applicators, they blame the product?
@@BelindaCarr unfortunately they do, due to ignorance. For reference: we have 17 cm in our floor. Not a mm of sag over 5 years now.
Love your content! New subscriber for sure! You are kind of mesmerizing with the accent I have to admit.
Always very informative videos.
Would love to hear your take on the Barndominium trend.
thank you. you just saved me a lot of money.
this is the video I've been waiting for. I've been very curious about the environmental impact of spray foam. even though it's a long term plastic, it's still a plastic. with so many other options out there it feels like an unnecessary concession to use plastic for insulation. I'm heavily leaning toward cellulose for our attic (and walls?). thanks so much for these insulation videos. you've been one of my primary sources in all of my research.
It is a plastic sure, but it’s really mostly air. And it saves so much petroleum product by insulating very very well its negative imoact is far outweighed by the energy savings.
That’s not to say that everything‘s perfect, but what it?
@@FreekHoekstra yeah i'm not saying it doesn't have its benefits, my personal preference is to avoid stuff that will eventually end up in landfills or be toxic. And we heat primarily with a heat pump sourced from municipal power that comes from 93% carbon free sources. No choice is perfect and we've no way of knowing ultimately what the BEST choice is environmentally with all the different factors, but given the info i have right now i'd like to avoid plastic insulation and go for something else that seems to work very well also. Thus the cellulose is looking like a good option. wouldn't have been able to navigate all these nuances without Belinda's videos.
@@jasonreed6262 yeah there’s a bunch of good options personally I do like the idea of using close cell foam for thin layer say 2 inches and then filling the rest with less chemical solutions, The main benefit that this provides is a very good air seal which means there’s also no condensation happening in your walls which means they last for pretty much forever. I think that’s a part that a lot of people forget about it if you make your building last for 20 years longer because it has been air sealed properly spray foam, that’s a lot of material not going to the dump either
@@FreekHoekstra very nice points. A small amount for air sealing / delay EVERYTHING from landfills longer. i like it. fortunately i'm not the one who will be ULTIMATELY making the decision as... it won't be DIY :). our house is about 50 years old and has insulation... but not a ton and not well installed and i've no clue about the walls or above the gararge. definitely need a professional to look at it. but yes air sealing i think is going to be a big factor i didn't really know about a few months ago before i started going down the youtube rabbit hole.
just out of curiosity, what's your relationship to insulation? a home owner? a homeowner who has done DIY insulation stuff? a contractor of some kind? just someone who finds this stuff interesting?
@@jasonreed6262 just be careful when you air seal an old house, if it’s done improperly it can cause the wood to rot and die,
Remember you can’t really keep water out you have to make sure it is still able to dry to the outside, Another good channel to pay attention to might be the bill show or Matt Risinger. He has a lot of information regarding this type of construction and renovation. Anyways yes your ceiling is super important if you don’t hear seal your house but insulate it’s like wearing a down jacket but not closing it while going down the ski slope, it’s not pointless but close.
I like new thumbnail and title. It showed in my suggestion today.
Hope it worked.
Strangely fascinating and technically rich!
Thanks you are always so helpful - I wonder about polyiso board insulation for warmer weather , I cannot find much specific information online
Very interesting about the lack of sound deadening. I have been looking for something to help keep sound from the street out of my rooms. Guess it's back to rockwool.
You don't waste words or my time, thanks
Great presentation. 👍👍 For a future video on spray foam insulation, I would like to see a serious look into fire ant, carpenter ant, and termite infestation of spray foam insulation and how to best avoid & prevent it.
Thanks. Working on a termite abatement video!
I was considering using spray foam for the rim joists in my basement. all the video's I saw on you tube never said what you are saying .
Thank You for the detailed information. Sometimes there are things a DIY'er should'nt do.
Thank you :)
Belinda, thanks for breaking up the video into organized sections and the great detail. Very helpful. There is a comment in the R value section where you say foam may not meet code. I'm having trouble understanding that. Open cell foam has the same R-value as fiberglass batt (about R 3.5 and closed cell has an R value of about 5.5), so how is it that if cell foam has an equivalent or higher R value than fiberglass batt, it doesn't meet code? Or are you just pointing out that CI is necessary to meet code for both fg and foam?
Spray foam definitely has its place. IMO where you have limited cavity depth and serious sun exposure, but need high R value the stuff is great. Where there is no ceiling/attic cavity & wallboard is direct applied to rafters it works well. The downside that once it's in it is hell to remove is a real concern for project planning & later remodeling. Perhaps spray foam could be combined with 3D printing of concrete walls for a better R value mix built into the structure.
Electrical could be installed in conduit, which would allow for replacement or upgrades in the future.
Plumbing could be done the same way, in conduit, assuming they are running a product such as PEX.
I would also leave spray foam to exterior walls only, and stick to more traditional insulation for use on the interior.
In the end, planning is THE KEY factor. Without proper planning, someone down the line is going to be screaming bloody murder :P
Good info! 👍🙂
A lot of the peeling back issues are also happening a lot lately because everyone had to change their formulation for the greener gasses. I believe most manufacturers still haven't gotten their formula back where it used to be.
Great overview, thanks! I like the idea of spray foam, but the cost compared to fiberglass, and difficulty of revisions tend to discourage me from using it.
I'm considering options for converting an attic to a heated space with a vaulted roof. I'd love to see a video from you describing the differences between hot and cold roof systems and the considerations when converting.
tHanks for that suggestion Dave. It is time for me to change out the shingles and would love to see options.
This is a master class for me, as a Property Manager I will continue to follow your channel. Brilliant work!
Flash and batt with closed cell foam is my favorite combination of insulation when dealing with price sensitive situations. We are using this in our new home construction this year. One inch of spray foam and the balance of the wall cavity filled with batt.
I'm in the middle of a DIY project to insulate and air seal the rim joist on my house. I'm using a modification of the flash and batt method by combining 2 in thick foam board and closed cell spray foam. Cut the foam board to roughly the size of the opening and place in the open rim joist bay with some construction adhesive. Once the construction adhesive sets, fill in the void around the edge of the foam board with the spray foam. I can come back later and add a layer of fiberglass or whatever but my main goal was getting it air sealed first.
@@jon27dThat is a good DIY version that will, most likely, make a noticeable difference in energy utilization, and even more importantly, comfort in the home.
One of my contractors uses this method as well. The flash and batt also allows for wiring to be fished in if needed.
Sounds like all pros and no cons to me!
Gonna use it on my ceiling for my unfinished 2nd floor in my house!
fascinating stuff ^-^ should you ever run out of video ideas, cob and clay adjacent materials in general have some really fun properties and possible applications, I'd love to learn more about them if that's something you would ever consider talking about
How about aerobarrier. Suppose to seal the home? I like aeroseal for duct work. Your thoughts. Really enjoy your videos!
Wonderful video, thank you!
I'm an architect in California. I am finding closed-cell, flash-and-batt to be useful for modern work with thin roof lines where detailing out ventilation is problematic. I imagine some of the added cost in closed cell can be offset by the savings in ventilation installation. It seems far simpler for roof subs just close things up tight rather than install things like roof to wall, 2-part flashings. Curious if you have thoughts on this aspect?
I am in France and the craftsman who does this told us that he used a special with recycled plastic and that he reuses what exceeds, when he insulates the attic.
He passes it through a grinder and spreads it out on the ground before putting the spray.
Hi Belinda. Thanks for the well explained videos. I live in Canada. Our attic was spray foamed with 6 inches of closed cell foam directly on the upper interior roof structure. The 6 inches filled the cavity between the rafters but not the rafters themselves. 14 years later rot is in many places along the ridge board and top of the rafters. Ant are nesting in many spots.
According to the numbers you mention for water vapour transfer, it sounds like my 6 inches of spray foam should not be allowing water vapour to seep through to the cold roof boards above. Could water vapour be getting absorbed through the non insulated rafters then in turn condensing against the exterior thereby rotting the surrounding wood structure ? Thanks.
Lots of specific info in this vlog. Much appreciated. I live in a termite area and I've heard spray foam is susceptible to this insect. A work around is to use spray form between the framing, hang the sheathing, install rockwool on the exterior before finally hanging the siding(in my case due to wild fire will use a cement-based siding) . The rockwool exterior offers fire resistance, soundproofing, and is a natural barrier for termites. New construction materials require new building solutions. Bummed to hear about the 6 months shelf life as I just bought 2 pallets of closed cell foam with the intent of using it in the summer. Need to get through the permitting process before the foam can go up. at least I know some new variables...
If those are Froth packs, there should be a use before date on there. I believe those last 2 years. I also think it depends on the manufacturer/chemical makeup to say how long it will last.
@@eduardos8895 You're the man! Just checked the boxes, the use by date says Nov 10th, 2023, so its 2 years on these containers of closed cell. I was under the gun to get everything wrapped in time to use it before April. Thanks for the heads up.
@Lionscircle Glad I could be of service. I used it my attic. I love it.
Just make sure both cylinders discharge at the same rate... I had one stop dispensing the Iso and it all became mush🙄. But usually, that happens at the very end of the containers. I just got a bit greedy.
Refinished the 3rd floor walk up on a 100 yo brick structure. Sprayed 1.5 inches to the underside of the roof deck.
Put a warm hat on the house. House is still leaky but not nearly as much.
I did see a sound and insect proofing benefit. No insulation previously meant we heard every street sound and critters passed un hindered. After I only hear the loudest straight pipes and if my wife complains about 1-3 stink bugs a month in winter that’s a busy month.
Well worth the investment. Bat insulation was not an option because venting the roof deck would have been a nightmare.
Only thing I would use this product for is sealing gap and detouring air flow in smaller areas. Otherwise Rockwool insulation is the most effective. No worries about fire hazards with Rockwool insulation.
You get it
If you have to do that much R&D to equal existing and/or better solutions & still have downstream problems... then it's more about being trendy
Being trendy, aka can't think for yourself lol
I remain open to my mind being changed; but, currently I'd prefer rockwool both inside and as the exterior insulation vs open/closed cell foam with foam on the outside.
Rockwool seems like a better overall solution. It appears to better handle moisture and sound than foam.
The two things that absolutely kill its appeal are the permanence and acoustic properties.
Renovation and even just the occasional new appliance will require electric and/or water to be run or re-routed based on the geometry of the appliance or fixture and adding anything from a generator hook-up or welding station in the garage to simply wanting to upgrade from a 15A to 20A circuit will be an absolute nightmare. I have a feeling that houses with spray foam will likely have lower resell values once people realize the difficulty and cost.
I also like having a very quiet house. Partly because I can get pretty loud at times, but also because I tend to sleep from 2am till 11am due to the nature of my job. Neighbors leaving for work, delivery vans slamming their doors, farm equipment running down the street or harvesting the field behind my house and trucks delivering oil, gas and mulch or pumping septic tanks all make it nearly impossible to get a full morning's sleep.
i had my old house filled with cellulose last year , i think for this little old house it is an improvement
My biggest fear of spray foam is improper mixing and application, especially in this current labor market. You can train people for months but if they do not adhere to the training it will end up costing everyone involved at some point from delayed construction, to dollars, to even health issues.
It's not really just training. It's often an equipment issue. One that the sprayers are totally unaware of
There is a safety shut off incase of imbalance on all machines, but all the sprayer bypass it to get the job done faster, so sue the sprayer.
I have tonzon floor (crawlspace) isolation, basicly it aluminumfoil bags.
I'm intrested in what you think about this. And how it compairs to others
I'm getting spray foam in a few weeks 3 in of closed then 6 in of open cell on top. For the 2x10 roof. 2x4 walls are getting 1 inch of closed followed by 2.5 open. Hope this was a good choice. My other option is the same thickness closed cell as stated above with fiberglass Batts on top of it.
Any feedback please?
Spray foam allows a 90% reduction in heat loss when properly installed in houses renovated in the Toronto area.
Do you recommend spray foam in the floor joist when coupled with foam-board based on your research? Will this affect babies in the house?
From an electrician's perspective, I don't like spray foam for the same reason you gave: you can't fish wire through it in a retrofit application. Spray foam does have its place however, you just need to be sure that your plumbing and electrical is exactly how you want it permanently.
I'm installing 2 empty jboxes in each room that stubs out to the attic space(closed attic) in case added services are needed down the road. Spray foam over the emt, planning for future needs.
The cons seem to outweigh the pros. Appreciate the video.
I'm currently renovating the 100 year kitchen of a 135 year old house. 2/3 of the main house was renovated and I used a mixture of rockwool and fibreglass as insulation. The house is not nearly airtight...field stone foundations and old windows contribute to this. In the kitchen, I've been leaning strongly towards closed cell SPF since everything is opened up but now I'm having second thoughts. After reinforcing the kitchen structure, I now have 7.5" deep stud bays and 10" for the flat roof's rafters. SPF is very expensive right now, $1.75/bdft in my part of Ontario. But SPF will tighten up the structure and seal it. Comments or suggestions anyone?
Its easy to remove, you get a wire brush on a grinder and you just rip it off, it does take some time depending on the power of the tool. But I mean if you are removing it in 30-40 years your either going to be ripping out the entire wall and everything but the studs or your fixing a section or adding a line of water or power and then yeah your just going to put a large wirewheel brush on a grinder and have that tear it out with a vacuum attachment to suck up most of the shredded foam along the installation path.
What are the possible issues for spray foam for under slab?
Attic sprayed with foam and no wires under it. What is the best fire proofer to put on top of it?
I've seen contractors down south in the US, saying that termites like to tunnel up into the stuff, just like they would, do to wood..
I don't know how true it is, but... I don't see them having anything to gain by lying?
Personally I'm interested in the "Hemp wool" product you talked about before. When I finally get to build my home, I think I'll aim for that..
And those new studs that have been engineered. The "Tstud" I believe with their powers combined... it'll be a half way decent insulation system. (or captain planet will manifest, lol)
@Eric B
Sounds like a good strategy to me. (The zip panel stuff is a somewhat "newer tech" by construction standards) You could probably just take more time, to make sure certain key points in the building are really sealed well, & it balance out?
I mean I've heard the term "rough construction" thrown around alot... so if you just had the crew take more time, or if your a home builder yourself, & tighten your standards in certain areas, it could pay off, in the long term (completed house) a lot better?
please let me know to make a pontoon block be filled with closed cell PU foam.
When the labour and material cost of batt insulation is compared with spray foam - the foam is more cost effective. This is what I have found in my area.
I don't think I'll ever choose spray foam as the primary insulation material, but what it teaches us is the importance of sealing every little nook and cranny of a home. So what I would do is seal every nook and cranny with canned spray foam from the hardware store, as that is exactly what it's designed for, and use rock wool with good R value and sound insulation as the main panels of insulation.
The attic, depending on its size and shape, may need to be completely spray foamed though, but that's up to whatever technology there will be at the time of me having to make such decision.
I like the new video name
This is a great video and I say this in a somewhat jokingly fashion because I am undecided as to what type of insulation I want to use in my home and as I started watching this video I’m like oh She loves it…..oh wait she hates it….oh no she loves is…. Oh damn I’m unsure lol. It’s a great video. Thank youn
We specify spray insulation on all new homes but don’t recommend it for renovations unless all the ceilings are going to be removed. We have seen issues with ac diffusers sweating when spray foam is Uber on renovations and the attic is not sealed completely.
I can not find any information on open cell foam and moisture problems. One video showed that moisture slowly goes into the open cell foam over time and stays there, like a sponge almost. Do anyone know about this?
I've been following it and reading about it for years. I even used it myself for a packing material many years ago. There is a "BEST" way for everything or at least the best way we know right now. I feel that every new house should have all outside walls and the roof sprayed with 1.5 to 2" of closed cell and then the proper additional Rockwool to bring to insulation to at least the minimum code for your area. Going over code is allllways a good thing!! As far as changing the air and removing moisture, there are additional machines needed for that, but in my estimations is quite worth the money as they will make your home far more comfortable and clean and quiet. Also, for people like me whom live in bad weather areas, "hurricanes for me", the closed cell foam can also help keep your roof on!! This means a break on house insurance as well!! For stove hoods and shower fans there is, as mentioned earlier, a machine to exchange house temperature conditioned air with the outside air taking some of the temperature from the other. As far as fire ratings go, I think foam is the best for keeping air from infiltrating through the roof and is it's own fire block inside of walls. Adding Rockwool to it is not a must, but in my line of thinking, is the best added insulation. With the foam there is no exchange of outside air where you don't want it. Adding the rock wool immensely adds to the R value and the fire retardant. This doesn't mean you have to stop there. Adding drywall over the foam and rock wool, well lets say I would NEVER worry about my house going up in flames.. YES, having foam done by a professional is the only way. There are many horror stories about bad jobs that made people sick and as you saw in this video, useless spray jobs..
Sorry it's so long, but this is extremely important for all of our futures.