WIRED by Design: A Game Designer Explains the Counterintuitive Secret to Fun
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- čas přidán 14. 12. 2014
- Ian Bogost at WIRED by Design, 2014. In partnership with Skywalker Sound, Marin County, CA. To learn more visit: live.wired.com
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WIRED by Design: A Game Designer Explains the Counterintuitive Secret to Fun
Producer: Editor in Chief - Scott Dadich, Creative Director - Billy Sorrentino, and Senior Producer - Sowjanya Kudva
Editor: Junho Kim - Zábava
He makes a really good point. You only have fun with a game when it takes itself seriously, when it's consistent, when it earns your respect. Or, as I interpreted it, you only have fun with a game when you love it. And that sounds really obvious to say, but it's an important thing to think about. You have to love your game while you make it if you hope for others to do the same. You have to respect it.
Matthew Crazer I would change "taking itself seriously" to "being self-aware". Games like Borderlands are always making jokes and they know it. Even then, they are aware that some points are crucial so the game can take a serious focus in a very natural way. That's why I love borderlands. It's a franchise that knows when to be funny and when to be serious
By definition Candy Crush isnt fun then, because no one takes it serious. It's a tool of procrastination.
And this is why so many old games are highly praised. The programmers back then experimented and loved their creations while people involved with games today massproduce using formulas that we, the consumers, are SUPPOSED to like.
That's the very thin line then between something being fun and something being entertaining; a diversion. They easily overlap, the are both highly subjective and are sometimes two sides of a coin. But fun is something that grows over time (I.e. you cant wait to continue the pursuit of it no matter how boring it might seem to other people), vs a diversion, which could be defined as something you do to kill time or amuse you momentarily to distract you from other things. In essence fun is a job you decide you want to do and pursue vs diversions are things you do because you don't have anything better to do (The common denominator between not doing anything and doing something). I guess you would consider candy crush procrastination unless you find it something worth pursuing, in which case it becomes fun.
While I partially agree with you, I don't think that's always the case today. Think about it, back then games had one solid job, gameplay and replay-ability, story telling was maybe secondary (if at all a thing). So they honed their craft to a fine edge, they made fun (Or entertaining) games. Now-a-days its a balance of not only having to please everyone because of various things (Profit for continual growth, profit for individual benefit and pleasing the broad fan-base) but having to incorporate elements that didn't exist back then; graphics, cinematic storytelling, inter-connectivity (multiplayer, chat, etc). Just think about all of the work it takes to make a game today and you'll value their effort a lot more. Granted some companies/people make shit games today, but the same happened when games started. There are gems in both sides of the pond, just as there a piles of shit in both eras of gaming.
The fact that someone hasn't created a top-tier successful game does not mean they don't have valuable insights; likewise, someone who has created a classic may not be aware of what made it good. And the talk isn't fun, but the talk isn't a game, so that's fine too. That being said, here are what I thought were some interesting ideas from the talk:
*Games must limit you in some ways but not others. (If you have zero control, you're not playing a game: you're watching a show. If you have total control, you're not playing a game: you're drawing on a blank sheet of paper.)
*Games are "the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles"
*Fun means "deliberately manipulating a familiar situation in a new way"
*In order to have fun with a game, you must "respect" it and take it seriously - despite the fact that this seems like an absurd thing to do.
*"Fun comes from the attention and care you bring to something that offers enough freedom of movement - enough _play_ - that such attention _matters_."
*Meta-commentary: This seems most applicable to "core games" that focus on a skill-based challenge, as opposed to social games, pure immersion games, etc.
Flyborg Thx for the notes friend!
To be fair, even drawing on a blank sheet of paper can be fun. The issue for most of us is that we see only the blank sheet. The artist, however, sees beyond the sheet. They see boundaries and obstacles in appealing to a crowd or a buyer with specific tastes, or even some self-made boundary in the limitations of using only certain materials, textures, colors, etc.
Children are masters of fun (surprise) in this way because they create their own obstacles. Given an empty sandbox, I loved to create games in which my brothers and I would create sand castles, but would be limited to a designated section of the box, could only make use of a single, small stream of water running through the box by a hose (which was neutral territory), and would have to prepare for disaster as the stream of water slowly increased in volume. Whoever's construction lasted the longest in the increasing flood, a valuable commodity turned catastrophic, would win. Plain sandbox, endless fun.
I learned this lesson very young and call it the God-mode effect. It's principally the same reason why things have value in the economy: scarcity/ supply and demand. When the objective becomes pointless or resources/power becomes infinite, the euphoria crashes because it turns out it does not satisfy something deeper at the end of the rainbow. It's the same reason why very wealthy people like rock stars do not feel fulfilled, and King Solomon from the Bible experienced the same thing.
I believe the takeaway here is that you can't just slap some gameplay together and expect it to be fun. Making a game fun requires attention to detail and having the game take itself seriously in delivering an experience.
gibbdude What is it about?
What's up there: A meaningful and educated lecture.
What's down here: Absolute sewage.
thanks that saved me some time
+
What's up there: No subtitles.
What's down here: More words than up there.
Took me a long 1,8 seconds to understand. For a moment there i was clueless.
Thank you for reminding me to not read the comments.
I'd phrase it a little easier: There is joy in progress which can be made by discovering, learning and then using your experience to grow. Then fun is the feeling you get when you watch yourself growing.
I thought almost the same: just that i thought fun is giving importance to the act of discovery. Yours is a little bit more complete. Way to go!!!
I'm deaf. Can you add captions?
It has captions
@@cortoons7889 4 years ago it didnt
🤣🤣🤣🤣 mf forgot about the past
Skill issue.
@@deleted_handledisliked lol
He's right. You only have fun when you take something seriously. I've noticed that in my own life.
It takes stupid dedication to something to do anything worthwhile to with it. All the grumpy commenters before me seem to be missing that this is an academic discussion and that it's not designed to be a spectacle by itself. It's informative.
Chris Sawyer Ah, right, academic discussions shouldn't be relatable or interesting!
well said, I think it was very informative and could be applied in many thing which is fun
Nathaniel you clearly missed the whole point - you're asking for sugar, that's why you're not having fun listening to his talk. It was fun to me because it got me thinking in a new way.
I wasn't really informative, it was a lot of vague words without any specific messages or facts at its core.
Those people just doesn't consider about the quality of the content but only about the charisma of the speaker :/
"...enough play..." I never thought about those two meanings of "play" together. That's fascinating.
Contrary to a great number of comments here, I found this talk entertaining. It was informative, well presented and MORE THAN TOLERABLE.
Ok this talk is not 'fun', at least not directly. But come on, he's a great speaker. Pauses, hand gestures etc - and above all else he speaks clearly and doesn't stutter. Also entertainment can hinder recall. Pretty well done.
Where are those "this is not fun" comments?? Found only one or two that claim that the talk wasn't fun. (which makes sense, because by his definition, the talker was supposed to have fun; while the audience was supposed to only have fun interpreting the talk)
That was literally more educational than my Games Tech course at uni.
Yes! Manual transmissions are fun, even though they're difficult. When I heard him say that he got all the cred he needed in my mind.
Ian is a genius. The talk is all it took to make me look him up, find his book, "Play Anything"", and buy it.
His description of "fun" sounds like my description of learning a craft.
That was an amazing and inspiring talk! And I am so happy that you kept it concise, not dragging the audience through 20 min of talking to get a strong point across. Much respect for you sir Ian. Thank you again for the talk!
I thought it was Gilfoyle for a second.
This guy makes a very good point regarding how much of a poor idea of what fun is we have. Creativity, challenge are the core elements of fun. The coffee example is perfect for anyone who is a coffee aficionado, pouring a good shot is a mild inconvenience that makes mornings less boring because unlike the most of the morning routine it has challenge and self expression. I do this kind of stupid stuff he mentions all the time. If I’m making some tea and toast with butter and jam I try to come up with optimal paths: how to brew the tea so it’s at the right temp when everything is finished, when the toast should be made so it’s not hot enough to liquify the butter, when the butter should be taken out of the fridge so it’s soft. It may seem mental to other people but it’s a mental stimulus to an otherwise boring routine.
This is probably the greatest talk I've seen in the last year, awesome Ian!
i like the whole art deco look of the auditorium.
I love that WIRED by Design logo behind him!
In games, it's risk vs reward. Any enjoyable task can feel like a chore if the reward for success does not equal the effort needed to reach it. Even this is a variable based on how much the player is invested in the genre, if you love superheroes, you will accept more difficult tasks with more moderate rewards, but again even then, that is tenuous. Fun is anything that you want to do in life, aside from the things you have to do in life
Wow...that is a brilliant talk...learnt a lot with this perspective of fun
Absolutely incredible.
Love this guy. Hands down. He's got the gist of it, he knows what it is in the core of the thing. I am glad to henceforth call myself a professional Fool. Thank you for defining my role in life.
9:47 my biggest frustration with my work.
This is a great talk! Great points - it definitely explains why people who are passionate about something will find it fun even if it's a boring thing to other people.
This makes sense in a way. I have way more fun poking around with tiling window managers like Xmonad or bspwm than I do clicking a mouse in typical floating window manager, even though the latter is what I'm used to and am therefore more productive using.
Long post part 2
tl;dr Balance reward, difficulty and iteration if you want it to be fun.
What some people are trying to do with boring things is fool others into thinking they're fun. Technically it works, but briefly. The more rapid an iteration, the less value there is in each similar iteration, and fun things stop being fun. Space out the fun. When iterations are too far apart, the practice required to gain skill is difficult to attain, and the experience can seem not worth coming back for. Keep an active pace. My un-fun is folding laundry. Not laundry in general, just folding. My interactions are:
How fast per item? How neat/consistent per item? How well do they fit in the drawer? Speed and neatness iterate too quickly, and once I hit a wall it becomes boring almost immediately. Fit in the drawer iterates once between laundry days. Way too far apart to be fun at all. If I was determined to make laundry fun, I would do it in stacks throughout the day instead of in one shot, spacing out the iterations and increasing opportunity to notice and adjust drawer fit. But that leaves my laundry sitting in a lump. All. Day. Makes me feel like a schmuck. The reward of fun laundry isn't worth the time.
The last bit will wrap this up.
This was a pretty cool talk. Made me see fun differently
Has anybody else here ever sat in front of a blank sheet of paper with some intention of drawing only to be paralyzed by the endless options? In contrast, has anybody else had a friend draw a random line on a totally blank piece of paper, and then have to try to make some sort of object, animal, or landscape out of it?
You start with the dauntingly endless possibilities of a blank sheet of paper, create "meaningless obstacles" for yourself, and then make something of it. You overcome them. You have many options to overcome this obstacle, perhaps similarly endless options to what you had with the blank paper, but you have a clear obstacle: turn some random mass of scribbles (because the friend is a jerk) into a coherent and often hilarious depiction of something we can identify with.
I wasted so much time in elementary school with this....
This is an interesting take, commenting so I don't lose this!
Very informative thank you
This is incredibly insightful. Thank you
Very insightful.
Makes total sense...I'm having fun discovering...learning....progressing...and over coming the challenges of making a game...because i can see that progress in the product...that doesn't necessarily make my game fun...BUT if I add these factors into the gameplay...
great talk!
While there's a lot of things he doesn't touch on, I think his main argument is sound. Fun is about learning and exploring, and that can't happen if you're constantly being distracted away from the main task. Sure, if an experience is innately unpleasant, you're probably better off being distracted from it, but in most cases, the experience isn't unpleasant, only boring. If you have room to learn about and explore the task, it can become fun.
But it's just not true. Wario ware games are one of the funnest things outta there. They have close to zero learning and exploring. Learning and exploring can be fun. But we must to put it in context of problem solving and creativity. Some task require learning and exploring, others don't. Both can be fun.
Internet is boring. It became a political platform and paid priorities ruined searches. This is why I am moving to board games. ,In 1999 we were at the pinnacle of civilization. We could find interesting blogs of people, Internet was newtral so it was fun to find stuff. People who liked music could find music. Today I made a search on music and Ukraine search results appeared, and these were not about music.
People who liked videogames, could find reviews by gamers. Today you find fake reviews written as political propaganda and generic comments (that could apply to any game) by people who did not play the game.
It is absurd.
Fun is play or control / movement that allows you to have control over it and experiment with differences. Experimentation and control.
Very neat talk.
Fun isn't finding the logical conclusion of good gameplay. It's discovery through play, or the enjoyment of a logical, internally-consistent system with elements of chaos through AI or another player. Liked the presentation though.
Blew my mind. On point.
that was pretty fun
I really like this, and it resonates with me a lot. Maybe that's redundant. Anyway, this approach makes me think of Ron Swanson from Parks and Rec. He finds great pleasure in crafts like woodworking, and fixing radiators and stuff. He puts forth his best efforts and takes pride in the quality of the outcome.
So how do we make a fun toaster? Or laundry machine?
According to this talk you would make a toaster that has more "play" and allows you to take toasting seriously. I could imagine being able to have fine control the heat or fine control of the distance from the heating element... I could imagine that would make toasting more "fun".
By taking this talk seriously I had fun trying to design a fun toaster. :)
+Stefan Marchhart have a serious commitment to toasting and doing laundry.
+Stefan Marchhart I just got inspired! What about a toaster that has a microphone in it and you have to scream in it! The louder you scream, the hotter it gets! And you have to find the perfect volume and constantly scream for 1 minute or so... xD Not practical at all, but I would sooo love to see people staying in the kitchen screaming like mad... "God morning hone-" *Screams uncontrolable*
Oh god i just got into that idea way to much... but again it was fun! :D
give it a face.
Honestly I think a fun 'toaster' would be holding a piece of bread over a small bonfire, this would require skill and dedication to get the right timing, heat levels and distance from the flame. Making the toast like this is a kind of like playing so therefor I suppose it's more fun
Amazing
So to have fun, become a geek and obsess about silly stuff. Makes sense, actually.
Judging something with bias is stupid itself, if u think sports is not geeky and games r for nerds, don't u think u r so boring and stupid that think just like some idiots high school students?
Kr|nX-3D ikr
Someone gets it.
Lol if these people need fun explained to them, do you really think they're going to get a joke?
Fair point, my fellow netizen. I tip my fedora. Fly away now.
The guy is brilliant!
this helps explain why i look forward to folding the laundry ever since i started taking it more seriously (& doing it the konmari way lol)
This might be giving me some hints about why SAME work/job is sometimes fully engaging and fun and sometimes just makes me want to quit
Very good video about difference between real and synthetic gamification.
4:08 "games make no sense, and we take them seriously precisely because they make no sense"
very interesting
amazing
BRILLIANT
This was a cool lecture.
I guess this commitment is more about enjoyment than fun.
Really interesting conference
Great stuff :)
Fun is easy to learn but complex to master in the mundane. Welcome to Super Smash Bros!!!!
2:40 that remaineds me an outlook on the Sisyphus story that i can't remember who said (i think Niestzche), think if suddenly Sisyphus enjoyed his punishment, what then?
Probably Albert Camus, "I leave Sisyphus at the foot of the mountain. One always finds one's burden again. But Sisyphus teaches the higher fidelity that negates the gods and raises rocks. He too concludes that all is well. This universe henceforth without a master seems to him neither sterile nor futile. Each atom of that stone, each mineral flake of that night-filled mountain, in itself, forms a world. The struggle itself toward the heights is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy."
Feels like it could have been a Ted Talk.
I didn't know Gilfoyle was a game designer too.
Well spoken mate, good on ya.
I don't know but that is just one perspective. Kids almost always have fun but I'm not sure it is about treating something with respect.
We are chemicaly programmed. Feeling of fun is just chemicals realesed in our brain creating a feeling that helps us grow up and learn about the world around us and ourselfs. It acts as a reward for perfoming a task well , learning something new, recognizing an abstact pattern, noticing and improvment of ourselfs or a subject of our work, among many other examples. Kids tend to have more fun as they have more stuff to learn and theyr able to get it out of things that adults wouldnt be able to. This is so because It works like a drug that we slowly get used 2 and some fun acitivites that are too shallow to threat them seriously become boring eventualy as we get less of a kick out of it each time and we dont get a reward for same discovery or a feat we already could perform just for doing it better. What is fun to any person is objective to theyr past expiriences, character and goals they pursue. Games can create fun by immitating life in abstract way creating scenarios and feedback to our actions that wouldn't exist in our life with just enough similarities to the world we know to allow us to make concious decisions in them and set our own goals. Playing a new game and discovering all possible interactions and things we can do is like beeing a child again and learning about the world.
Make play not fun. That's my mantra. If you create plenty of opportunity for play then the fun takes care of itself.
I greatly enjoyed this video. The most outstanding part is the prose, the second being knowledge of the subject matter.
In other words, the secret to fun is making something that's satisfying to Git Gud at.
I feel like I just learned a great truth about the nature of the world.
I call it the paradox of work 😋
this man speaks in poetry
Glad to see gilfoil got work after silicon valley
I clicked on this video thought it would be Keanu Reeves
awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think there's a larger idea here. A goal and the journey to that goal is an important aspect of life. If it's not pleasure the it must be this, otherwise it's apathy.
Mind blown
I'm not sure it can be summed up as eloquently as that. Sure, for us nerds fun is delving into a subject and learning it's nuances and boundaries, mastering it and proceeding to break the boundaries to make an entirely new subject that can then be mastered. Take Jazz for example. But then theres also stupid fun. That is a legitimate kind of fun that is almost entirely mindless, and that might be the kind that Mary Poppins was referring to!
amazing mary poppins references. im gona watch that movie soon because of this vid
This video is so unbelievably eye opening and so absurdly true that I am at a loss
What an illuminating talk! I usually don't comment just to say something as boring as, "super!" but I was affected by this! Great insight into living a mindful and examined life.
A game you can learn and become better at and eventually master is a game that people will enjoy
When they pour enough time to be happy with their skills
Or something like that
and not a good game like Genshin Impact
@@freelanceart1019 I didn't get into Genshin, but I wouldn't say it's bad
Clicked thinking it was gonna be Gilfoyle.
F is for friends that do stuff together U is for..
Uranium
bombs
Sometimes when playing pool I get very precise about defining the rules of our particular game and often people get annoyed and will say something like, "Oh im just playing for fun." This frustrates me because having loosly defined rules significantly reduces how much fun I can have. How can I perfom better not know where the goalpost is? Similarly, it wasn't until I competed against other players in disc golf that I started to take the game seriously enough to make enjoyable. For me personally, fun comes when I care to try sufficiently hard enough to improve or win. This talk nailed it and makes me feel less like an overly competitive weirdo.
interesting
this is true, if you can't understand = you can't have fun.
the comment section disappoint me ;/
Very much that. I was so surprised people come here and bash the speaker for not presenting himself as fun on the stage. This is a talk, not a game :O.
A year later, those childish comments flood to the bottom and the real educated comments stay on top. This comment section is actually more magical than you think. More interesting, more inspiring, more...
*FUN*
holy fuck that was profound. you can apply thous last 3 or 4 sentences to relationships
I wanna give this two thumbs up
Fun comes from Optimizing.
Who knew that sticks and friction would yield fire.
Walt Disney was in the business of selling snake oil in sugar-coated chunks!
so fun i fell asleep halfway toward them lecture ....
so is it basically saying dont half ass stuff?
MK5 GTI Shift stick
I started putting my finger into to the candle flame. In the beginning it was borring, a bit itchy, and smelled of bacon. But then a started to respect the activity and it suddenly became a lot of fun. The deliberateness, discoveries, seriousness, attention, and care just make it so much fun.
Nothing beats the secrets reveal by my infatuation with burning wax.
minecraft and candy crush. wow, what a wide range of games
I wonder if this is why I always get bored of games so quickly. I rapidly exhaust everything a game has to discover that is interesting to me.
RIP First post. You were the fairest of them all.
most important sentence @ 9:01
Very cool. Thanks for sharing this info and inspiring students @mediaartssbcc
Fun can't be mandatory. I know that much.
Thanks gilfoyle