DEBATE | Can a Christian Lose Their Salvation? | Trent Horn vs. Dr. James R. White
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- čas přidán 28. 07. 2024
- Apologist Trent Horn and Dr. James R. White of Alpha and Omega Ministries debate the theology surrounding the topic: "Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?" This debate was moderated by Michael O'Fallon on January 18, 2017. Sovereign Alliance sponsored the event at the 2017 G3 Conference in Atlanta, Georgia with over 1,300 audience members in attendance.
00:00:00 White Opening Statement
00:20:37 - Horn Opening Statement
00:40:22 - White Rebuttal
00:56:19 - Horn Rebuttal
01:11:27 - White Cross-Examine 1
01:22:19 - Horn Cross-Examine 1
01:32:36 - White Cross-Examine 2
01:43:23 - Horn Cross-Examine 2
01:54:06 - Audience Questions
01:54:06 - White Closing
02:24:13 - Horn Closing
(thank you ArchetypeGotoh for the timestamps)
Debate Format, hopefully helpful for viewing
--White Opening Statement, 20 Minutes (0:00)
--Horn Opening Statement, 20 Minutes (20:37)
--White Rebuttal, 15 Minutes (40:22)
--Horn Rebuttal, 15 minutes (56:19)
--White Cross-Examine 1, (1:11:27)
--Horn Cross-Examine 1, (1:22:19)
--White Cross-Examine 2, (1:32:36)
--Horn Cross-Examine 2, (1:43:23)
--White and Horn, Selected Audience Questions (1:54:06)
--White Closing, 10 Minutes (2:13:32)
--Horn Closing, 10 Minutes (2:24:13)
Thank you so much!!!
A scholar for doing this
Thank you!
1:46:40 James white blunder :)
Helps😊
I'm here seven years later. Watched as a protestant concerned about my soul and I'm back to comment as a Catholic who is grateful for the continual renewing love and grace of God!
Now I know why James White made a 59 minute "post-debate" video to teach his viewers about "Accurately evaluating debates". Great debate Trent Horn! That was for the greater glory of God!
That's what I thought...
Mak Matix, How does one become a "sore loser" by stating a fact?
Jimmy G I think Mark Matix meant that James was a "sore loser", otherwise his comment does not make sense.
Santa Escritura & Mak Matix, I apologise for my miss understanding
it was not a debate both he(James White) and Yasir Qadhi said it was not a debate, but a dialogue. Did you listen to both of their intros on both nights of their talks in the church and mosque?
Watched this roughly 2 years ago as a Protestant who loved James White…. Now I’m back to watch it as a Catholic who loves Trent Horn. 😅 life is wild.
Same lol
Anyone who is Catholic how are you do blind?
How can you be a part of such as The papacy and the Vatican?!
Open your eyes seriously investigate.
Why does the Vatican display a big Egyptian obelisk? Like Washington DC and The inner city of London.
Read your Bible…wake up.
@@jimijames7703 "Read your Bible…wake up."
Open your bible to the table of contents. What authority do you defer to, to have decided that your New Testament contains 27 writings, no more, no less, out of 300+ early Christian writings?
Read your bible! Do you have a book, chapter and verse that lists these books??
@@TruthHasSpokenI'm Catholic because God and scripture lead me to the Catholic church
@@andreeattieh2963 Wonderful! Was there a doctrine or belief in particular that convinced you to convert?
As a protestant i can say that Trent schooled James White.
Also i as a protestant can say i believe in Communion of the saints, baptismal regenaration, the holy eucharist and maybe even the virginity of Mary.
I was anti Catholic but now i see them as my brothers and sisters in Christ even though i dont agree with everything.
God bless
Brother how are you protestant when you accept the dogma of the Catholic church?
@@aaronquinn6626 I am a biblicist. I accept what the Bible teaches. I also affirm the trinity, does this mean I am a Roman Catholic or a Christian. I affirm many things that Protestants would condemn me for but I don’t care. I accept Catholics, orthodoxs as fellow Christians
@@buffsoldierofchrist5907 I didnt say you aren't Christian, you claimed you are protestant and then said you follow some Dogmas. These concepts are at odds, you cannot be both.
@@aaronquinn6626 well I am a Christian biblicist who is always protesting. I don’t have to classify myself as something. Some would say I am a Protestant others would say I am a heretic and others say I am embracing this or that. I read the Bible and follow what it says. Traditions can be true if they match scripture
@@buffsoldierofchrist5907 Fine you just agreed with me. I didn't say you have to call yourself anything but you surely are not a Protestant by holding dogmatic beliefs.
"There were two crucified with Christ. One was saved , we must not despair! The other was not, we must not presume!" •Saint Augustine•
Beautiful.
"There are many rooms in my Father's house." So the thief on the cross would hardly expect the same rewards as St Paul. Matt 16:27
Gerry De naro at least the thief got to Heaven and he wasn’t late to be counted among God’s friends
@valiant crusader
So I shouldn't listen to anyone at all? Including you?
@valiant crusader
You said, "Better to listen to THE LORD JESUS" to someone quoting St Augustine in reference to a Catholic-Calvinist debate.
I'm a Muslim, but I watched this to better understand my 'cousins in faith'. It was very informative. I felt the Catholic gentleman was a better speaker and explained his faith much better than White. White was okay, but I felt he felt flat against a more knowledgeable debater.
Thank you, uploader, for sharing this. I wish you all peace.
I pray you accept jesus as the true messiah into your heart.
Thank you for your openness. May the one true God bring us all to Himself.
True
God bless you, Sonny! :)
Thank you Sonny, May God bless you and keep you.
I was a Jehovas Withness but my wife brought me to Catholicism 🙏🏽 📿
Hi! May I ask what was it that brought you to Catholicism? I find jehovah’s witnesses to be the most stubborn and hardest to reach in the fact that they don’t even believe Christ to be God and it’s a high control group that doesn’t allow questioning. What made you question?
Vman, what is that you saw as true in Catholicism that you did not see as a Witness?
@@TruthHasSpoken well I realized that a lot of what JW (my family included) would quote to refute or assert their beliefs were mainly taken out of context.
Also the fact that JW are taught to distrust the world and anyone who becomes ex fellowships ur suppose to shun them. So friends u had who no longer are JW are completely ignored by everyone who they use to call friends.
And another reason is I really like the traditions of the Catholic Church, and after attending the Latin Mass i saw that the focus was put on god and not some preacher on a stage.
I use to be combative and say “what authority does this guy have to teach us?!” And then I learned about apostolic succession and the authority given to the priest from Jesus and the apostles then it started to make more sense to me.
@@vman9347 Vman, all praise to the Holy Spirit for stirring your heart. Many never find their way out of Watchtower. It's a blessing that you have and it the Church!
You left one cult for another.
I left the Catholic Church about 20 years ago. I then went to aBaptist church. A new “reformed” preacher came in and invited James White to speak on “The Dangers of Catholicism.” Look it up, it’s on CZcams. His conference made me go back Catholic lol! Something didn’t sit right with me. His claims about the Catholic Church did not make any sense. This led me to many weeks researching the Catholic Church. I am so happy God led me back home! Thank you Trent for your videos, they played a big part in my family going back to the church.
Yay!
Guys stop following denominations. Religion says do, God says come. Why do you think their is so much division? It’s not about what you do, who you follow, how you do it and why. In Ephesians 2:8-9 it says For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. It doesn’t matter if you are a catholic or a baptist or so forth. If God is not the final authority in your life and you do not put Gods word over every decision or circumstance and you do not believe that Jesus is God, died and rose again, there is no salvation for any of us. Not all Catholics believe the same things just as not all baptist agree and believe the same things. Don’t stick with a church or denomination, stick with THE CHURCH. The big C, the big B believers. Jesus didn’t preach Catholicism or methodology or Mormonism. He came and demonstrated his love and taught us the truth and then proved it to us. The Bible is written by witnesses. You don’t stand with anyone and you don’t stand apart. We stand together regardless. The Bible tells us all we need to know, it’s the only starting point we have. That’s like saying I’m a catholic so I’m going to heaven because we have it right and so on and so forth. You being a catholic doesn’t save you, Jesus dying and your repentance and belief is what saved you. Guys don’t feel like you have to pick sides because we can do this all day. Just follow Jesus and his truth and you will be ok. It’s not about you or me, there is only one hero of the story and it’s Jesus. Your job, my job, our job, is to tell other the good news, the gospel. Not to tell them which denomination to join because Jesus didn’t point to one and he didn’t create it. He said deny yourself, pick up your cross and follow me. That’s what a Christian is, a follower of Christ. You are not a catholic or a baptist or whatever, that’s not your identity, your identity is in Christ and with Christ. You are not a white Christian or a black Christian. You are not a male Christian or a female Christian. You are not a wealthy Christian or a poor Christian. You are not a catholic Christian or a baptist Christian. You are a Christian because you follow Christ not because you follow religion. Why do you think there is division? Well this denomination says this and they say this and I believe this. What does the Bible say? We are a body guys of one bigger purpose. You are just a part of one big body as am I. I need a foot, an arm, someone else is the hands another is the eyes. We all have a part to play and regardless where to stand, God will accomplish his will with or without you and regardless of your denomination. If you are wrong, you can still be saved. If you are right, you can still be saved. We all need forgiveness, we all need his saving grace. Come together and build his kingdom, stop trying to build your own. We need to bring others together and it’s ok to have differences, just don’t deny the power of God and who he is. There is only one Christ and we are all trying to point to him. Do what Gods word says and you know you are doing what’s right. I was saved before I found a church. I found God without a church because he came to me as I read his word. It don’t take a specific view, I just chose to believe and I surrendered to him, I was ready and I knew I needed forgiveness for what I have done and he came to me. Put your faith in God, not in man or yourselves. We follow Jesus and his teachings, not religion because religion says different things. It’s not about what you do because works and opinions don’t save you, faith alone does because Jesus paid our debt. That’s ok to have your views, but don’t teach others your views teach them Gods word because we all have an opinion, God states facts. Let’s come together and focus on what we can agree on and settle on our differences and look out for one another. Get back to me and let me know what you think, thank you very much for your time
@@sethl7858 Non-denominationalism is still Protestantism
@@jlouis4407 I got you and I should have been more clear on that. The point I was trying to make is that it’s not so much as finding a group to stand with as much as it is knowing the truth. I listen to James white and some other guys and it was my first time listening to Trent Horn and I think he did have a much better explanation. But just because we share the same views doesn’t mean I have to be a catholic. Maybe James white was the wrong guy to represent the other side for this debate. You don’t have to be something or stand in a certain area because of similar beliefs. As I stated we have the same views but maybe our beliefs differ in areas. I don’t want someone to think they have to pick a side to believe a certain way. I’m with Horn and I think James agrees to a degree but that doesn’t make me a catholic nor does it mean I share a catholic view, I just agree in this area. I’m not saying denominations are not important but really they aren’t. It gives a title and that title is known for overall beliefs, I don’t think it clearly defines me or others. I’ve been asked if I was a lot of things and I just said I believe the Bible for what it says, it didn’t take a label nor did I feel the need to add one. You can be something or believe something without a label or even knowing what it would be called. It’s not important to define ourselves by our denomination but by who we are In Christ if any of this makes any sense. I saw where they felt the need to jump back and forth and it seems important to say someone has it wrong or maybe not completely put together and to say that a representative gave a better explanation so you are now this or this isn’t accurate, it doesn’t make sense. What if Horn debated someone else and that person didn’t agree, would they change denominations again? If hitler was to preach the gospel I would say yes I agree but I wouldn’t say I’m a nazi now. If he said we need to kill the Jews and do this and that, I would say we agree in the one particular area about God but I’m not killing anyone because I disagree with your belief here. I don’t have to become a nazi because we have a similar belief because I might not agree in all areas. Horn could be right in this one area and later he believes some similar beliefs of Mormonism or something. If I have all these mixed beliefs what am I then? I don’t want people to think they have to stand in a certain group to believe something, sometimes we can just say I believe that and some other things because the Bible shows what seems to be clear evidence and until I’m shown otherwise and convinced, my belief won’t change but that doesn’t mean I now have to change denominations.
God have blessed you trully, welcome back to the one holy and apostolic Catholic Church!
Why is it so difficult to understand that if a person refuses Christ, s/he cannot be saved?
The answer lies in what the act "refusing" or "accepting" Christ actually means. It is actually a lot more complex than a simple profession. However, in the end, we could not know if we could be saved, since we are all unworthy. On one end, the Scripture tells us that faith alone can justify us. On the other hand, it tells us that faith should not be passive and be manifested in good works centered in Christ's commandment of love. In any the case, our limited mind can only know that much, and only through God's grace can we be saved. Only He can decide on that, we only follow what was taught.
Calvinists believe human beings *have--no--free--will,* and therefore are *not capable* of refusing *or* accepting Christ. Since this position is not supported in a single verse of scripture, they have to resort to extra-biblical measures to confuse you, or in James White's case, mock and ridicule you into silence.
Yes, but that is refusing Jesus. They were never saved. The point is, you can't lose your salvation (after you are saved), because the God will not allow this to happen.
SanSebastian Show me one scripture verse that teaches this.
@@davidfigueroa8188 What about the Holy Spirit? When one is saved, is protected and guided by the Holy Spirit. He will never let us fall away from faith. Sin wilfully or reject Jesus. I can't believe the person filled with The Holy Ghost could turn his back away from Jesus. That is one of the most important task of The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit dwells in believers and fills them. “Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?” (1 Corinthians 3:16,).The Holy Spirit is a source of revelation, wisdom, and power. (1 Corinthians 2:10-11). The Holy Spirit gives spiritual gifts to believers. (1 Corinthians 12:7-11). The Holy Spirit is a seal in the lives of believers. (Ephesians 1:13).
I believe Mr Horn presented a better argument. I converted to Catholicism 10 years ago and this was a pivotal issue.
Brett RCG have a relook at the rebuttals on the hermeneutics esp the descriptive vis a vis prescriptive aspects of exegesis to be consistent. Mr. Horn does not have this understanding. I would recommend D.A. Carson’s “Exegetical Fallacies” for your reading before you decide who made a biblically informed presentation.
@@Tanjaicholan so D.A. Carson is the final authority on exegetical fallacies and who presents biblical arguments? That's weird.
@@Tanjaicholan But, why are we having to construct this method of reading the Bible....? That's going through hoops and doing cartwheels to understand the common sense of the Bible (with the exception of Paul's Epistles, apparently lol).
@@Tanjaicholan The Protestant Reformers are "ministers of righteousness," for they made themselves apostles who divided Christ's Body over the doctrine of righteousness, of justification, claiming to have the light, when in fact they do not. There is no greater evil than to tell people it is not necessary to obey God, take them away from the saving grace of God's Sacraments, then tell them that they are saved. In fact, these "ministers of righteousness" *told everyone they could be their own apostle, interpreting Scripture for themselves* with no regard for the teachings the Church has held since the beginning... It is one thing to read the Scriptures for ourselves. It is another thing to go running around, devising our own "truths" of doctrine from Scripture.
Zach Lee Did I say he was the final authority? You read that into my rebuttal and made a false and incoherent case for yourself.
Mr. Horn. I really appreciate what you did here. Good Job. I'm a protestant (I,m not on any journey to turn catholic or anything, by the way) but in this debate I learned so much how to confront calvinism. Thank you. God bless you.
Same ! I am a Protestant and Trent did a great exposure of the Calvinist flaws !
I’m a former anti Catholic Protestant that was very slowly converted to the Catholic Church by Jesus Christ. My guardian Angel started my journey in a very startling way that got me shaking from terror because he asked me if what I believe really is the truth. I’d never questioned it before. So, I asked God to guide me to his truth and send someone to teach it to me. And he did.
@@Aryalanae … that was the devil …
@@lauromartinez8948
Humble yourself and repent
Biblical Christianity is hard to confront, I hope you succeed.
“If salvation can’t be lost these warnings are nonsensical”
Trent Horn
Yes , trent nailed it
That´s no argument. You have to see that there are 2 Typs of Faith (Clearly shown in the Bible) 1: Saving Faith (True believer/Reborn) 2: False Faith (No true Conversion/Not Reborn) There is not one Clear Passage where it is mentioned that a Born again Beliver can lose his Salvation. For eternal Salvation there are as you heard in the Debate clear verses which are clear for reborn beliver.
It was interessant to hear the point of Horn that "God gives the Grace
of perseverance to thouse which love to the end"(more grace to some then to other, because they worked more? Thats not what the bible teaches) but don´t seeing that they would not need this grace because God knows that they will love until the end, so why giving the grace. They would and have mantained their own Salvation, but to dont say that, you are saying "no God gives the Grace to those" so that you can say the glory is of God because he gives the Grace of perseverance. Thats not honest .
It is grace to say God gives the grace of perservance to thouse which "Humble themselfs and Recognize that they cant earn they own salvation and put their trust in Jesus Christ, thats the one that is reborn of the Holy Spirit by the word and have decided to follow jesus christ after being convicted by the Holy Spirit and died for themselfs and got new life by the SPirit of God" (You can not be UNreborn; like now you cant say i dont want to be Unborn and dont exist/You have no power over that and this is predestined in the way of no one asked you if you want to exist our not, God decided to/.
So you are saying i could not save my self, but now i can keep my salvation by myself and even more, i have to earn my salvation and mantain my salvation by works?
The big problem of the people are the tradition. As Jesus already said to the Pharisee and
Sadducees. And you really think that Jesus will add something to himself? Thats very blinded.
Psalm 119:9 John 1:1;14/ John 14:26/ John 15:26/ John 16:13/ 1.Joh 2:27
Repent and belive in the Gospel
You only need the bible and the holy spirit and he will Guide you in all truth.
@@Christian.Portugues.Francisco My third response because I did not address your tradition comment. Their is no problem with Tradition from God but Tradition of Men is what the problem is.
2 Thessalonians 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
Also Jesus recognizes The Pharisees Influence 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat; 3 so practice and observe whatever they tell you, but not what they do; for they preach, but do not practice.
Jeremiah 23:4 I will set shepherds over them who will care for them, and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall any be missing, says the Lord.
Multiple Shepherds (plural)
Mark 14:27 And Jesus said to them, “You will all become deserters; for it is written,
‘I will strike the shepherd,
and the sheep will be scattered.
Jesus is the first shepherd Then makes Peter a Shepherd John 21:15-1715 When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16 A second time he said to him, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” And he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep.
A person who feeds lambs, tends sheep, and feeds sheep is only a shepherd.
Matthew 16:18-19 And I tell you, you are Peter,[a] and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the powers of death[c] shall not prevail against it. I WILL GIVE YOU THE KEYS OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, AND WHATEVER YOU BIND ON EARTH SHALL BE BOUND IN HEAVEN, AND WHATEVER YOU LOOSE ON EARTH SHALL BE LOOSED IN HEAVEN. Peter got the authority to bind and to loose (Traditions are biblical)
That’s not the way it works.
It appears as though you can lose it because we humans cannot determine who is in fact real Christians. Even the biggest Christian apologists have become non Christian. It’s unpredictable. The warnings are from a human perspective.
Additionally, a backslider and a non believer can look similar yet one is saved and the other is not. Again we humans cannot determine it so to us, it is 50/50 and hence the warnings are there and also to support the backsliders.
So this argument doesn’t make any sense.
I wish he would have asked White directly about this. OK, you could say that Jesus might provide "guidance" to the saved as to how they should live, etc. by why warnings? A warning sayings "be careful of X or otherwise Y will result." But according to White "Y" (loss of salvation) can *never* result, so why warn?
I dislike Trent for this debate wgen i was a protestant.
By the grace of God, Trent and many other Catholic apologists helped guide me towards the true church that Jesus Christ set up on earth.
Cloud Strife Welcome home!
valiant crusader Are you perfect? No. You are being a hypocrite by saying that. You don’t try to convert someone by telling them they’re wrong, you find something in common. Right now whatever religion you’re in I don’t want to be in because that must mean there are people like you. I said this before, and I’ll say it again. Stop it when you aren’t perfect
@valiant crusader First of all, you're acting like an immature 8 year old. God doesn't "choose" anyone. God made ALL OF US. He loves EVERYONE. Do you sin or are you perfect? You have NO RIGHT to say those things about me. You don't know who I am, and you don't know my sins. Don't call me sinful when you yourself is sinning in your comments. Example: Me telling someone to be quiet when I'm being loud... It doesn't make sense, right? Once again, you are being a HYPOCRITE! Please stop calling your brothers and sisters sinful when you have your own soul to worry about. Being mean to people isn't going to make them say, "Wow, I think "valiant crusader" is a really great guy, I think I'm going to join his religion!" NO! They AREN'T going to say that. YOU are being RUDE and DISRESPECTFUL to others. Please stop, you are not perfect. No one is perfect except for God. I don't want to be mean, but you are being horrible to people!!!!!!!!
valiant crusader And who is He talking to?
valiant crusader Oh and also, you didn’t say which book you got this from, so I can’t look into it. Plus stop saying I’m a sinner, because you are too.
According to Dr. James R. White, I am condemned.
According to Trent Horn, I have hope
Hallelujah
According to the Bible, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. John 3:18 says those who don't believe are condemned already. Dr. White gives you the proper diagnosis of your condition, Trent Horn tells you, you only have a cold that can go away in a few days. I'd rather get the real diagnosis.
@@choicemeatrandy6572 Or perhaps the "real diagnosis" as you put it, is actually more favorable than you think.
@@hilairebelloc3368 I don't see how condemnation is favorable. Better tell someone the truth than lie to them by encouraging false hope and false piety.
@@choicemeatrandy6572 I did not say that "condemnation," in the bleak and Calvinistic sense of the term, was the real diagnosis. The real diagnosis is that the image of God remains, albeit tarnished almost beyond recognition, and that grace is well within the grasp of the will, if only it would turn to grasp it.
This was a major issue for myself and my wife. It was absolutely astonishing to read the Church Fathers and realize, after being raised in evangelicalism my entire life, the errors of protestantism. We were stunned, and coming to the knowledge of the ancient Faith, the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, we have been greatly blessed.
The church fathers are an interesting topic, however their written words are not God-breathed.
The Spirit says that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we have hope.
The Spirit also says that men receive the Word and then it is choked out.
@@ericdelanoy9570 The question that I have for you then is do you have an infallible interpretation of scripture? Or, if you prefer, do you have an infallible systematic theology through which you interpret them?
Gabe no, neither. I have what God has graciously given. The question you ask I have heard before from Catholics and Orthodox, I’m just not sure I see it’s place. Are you suggesting that Church tradition/fathers are infallible? Or the pope? Is it something you have that Protestants (I don’t really call myself that) don’t? Do I need infallible interpretation to be right about the meaning of a text? Doesn’t the Scripture say to “study” and “let each one be convinced in his own mind”, implying by the Reading of the Word and the Holy Spirit helping? Lots of questions, hope they are a coherent response to your question.
@@ericdelanoy9570 You don't see it's place because you don't see the lenses that you're looking at the world, and especially, scripture through. Whatever you've been given, the Scriptures (and I assume you are missing the deutero-cannon), you have because of a faithful transmission of them, from one apostle to the next, as well as a liturgy and interpretation transmitted by what we call Tradition as well.
Gabe that doesn’t answer any of the questions I asked. I, of course, could say the same thing to you. Rather than that if we ask some good questions we might get somewhere near the bottom of this. Also, the Christian has been given everything pertaining to life and Godliness. And, I’m not sure if your saying this or not, but if your arguing that without the apocryphal books that I don’t have the Scripture (let’s assume it is inspired Scripture), I would say the writers of the NT would disagree. Early Christians didn’t have their own Bibles, and their assemblies would typically only have parts but the Scripture with Christ dwelling in them they have everything (again) necessary for life and godliness (words written before the canon was complete).
It's unfortunate that Dr White resorted to attacking Catholic doctrine that were not necessarily relevant to this debate. These jabs were, for the most part, ad hominem attacks at Mr Horn trying to discredit him before their mostly Protestant audience.
It’s totally necessary to attack Catholic doctrine because it’s the devil, Paul did the same thing he attacked false doctrine
@@carolwilliams383 boo I’m a Protestant, James white isn’t a good debater
@@adamduarte895 He is better than most
It's nothing more than a fit of chicanery to advance his heretical views.
Cry about it!
Trent Horn was amazing here, for a younger apologist. Just Imagine if he had the age and experience of White. It would have been a no contest. Trent has a bright future ahead of him that's for sure. Thanks for the upload Catholic Answers!
Ivan, there was a no contest. It's just that some people get it and other people don't. Yet.
There was no contest because Trent believed in the truth, and White didn't have that advantage.
@valiant crusader is the valiant crusader betraying his church with a meaningless insult?
@valiant crusader Christ's Church and the claim that Trent Horn is void of truth.
@valiant crusader that makes your ideas sound very powerful, a shame the church fathers disagree.
"The one who states his case first (James) seems right,
until the other (Trent) comes and examines him" Proverbs 18:17
Santa Escritura I liked how Patrick Madrid applied this verse to White on another debate.
Cherry picking verses is the catholic way.
@@ministryoftruth1451 the biblical way is the Catholic way. The Church set the canon as you know it.
@@lionofthecherubim4486might want to do some reading on this. Your information is wrong. Of course Biblical scholars recognize the canon was ratified (for lack of a better word) by the followers of Christ prior to any council. If it were not so then there was a 1500 year period without canonized scripture. Biblical references to other writings is one way the writers and apostles confirmed the canon. OT canon was determined by the prophets themselves such as Moses who put the law as scripture next to the ark of the covenant. Catholic church was a dollar short and a day late on this.
@@ministryoftruth1451 The Canon was first ratified by a council called by Pope St. Damasus I in 382. The first ecumenical council to deal with Scripture was indeed Trent, but various local councils had already been ratifying 73 books for over a thousand years beforehand.
Further, I find the accusation that Catholics "cherry-pick" verses telling. Protestants run through their handful of classic "prooftexts" against the Catholic Church, but as soon as the Catholics quote a verse that flatly refutes the Protestant view, it automatically becomes "cherry-picking," without any actual demonstration of that cherry-picking. Please, go ahead. Where is the "cherry-picking"?
Trent Horn converted to Catholicism because:
It made the most biblical sense.
It is the only faith that brought him to a practice of christianity that mostly resembles that of the members of the early church.
His explanation, not mine.
Such a odd take on this part
@@argollothe catholic church is the mother of the Bible as well!!!
@@davido3026 LOL hilarious.
What about Orthodox church?
You mean he became religious like a Pharisee? Jesus's harshest words and condemnation was towards the Pharisees! You are deceived! The catholic church is apostate and teaches heresy!
Trent wins ! Coming from a Protestant who’s inquiring Orthodoxy
@Matt Blaise really? I never thought of that. I would like to chat to you more about that.
Orthodoxy is the Gospel. Read Paul’s writings were saved by Grace, not by works.
Read ALL of the early church fathers writings. They themselves argued if there was a Chair. Augustine of Hippo stated Christ is the rock not Peter.
True, one is saved by the grace of GOD and not by works as said by Paul - but if you'll read the synoptic gospels, you'll find that Christ said, "Love GOD with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, *and* love your neighbor as yourself." So how can one can be bestowed or granted the said *grace of salvation* ? It is by truly obeying GOD - that is, by doing *works of love* . Remember the parable of the Good Samaritan - where Christ explicitly commanded the learned person who asked Him how he could inherit eternal life or salvation: "Then *go and do* the same."
Peace and GOD bless...
I am born and raise as a Catholic, nd I thankful for this post.
So glad this is up for all to see! Trent Horn made it so easy to see that James White was preaching a false gospel. Thanks for uploading this Catholic Answers! We love your work of spreading God's Word!
GGodHand I'll take your advice! What a great debate am I right? :D
How To Be Christian I am now your 200th subscriber good sir! Thanks for all the informative videos you post! :)
Thank you GGodHand! Catholic Answers played a huge part in helping me to realize that the Catholic Christian Church is the One Church that Christ created, and I'm glad to be a part of a community that helps Christians find Christ's Church.
We love seeing your comments! Thank you.
Hi Soldier of Christ 111,
Thank you! That is very much appreciated! We loved seeing the great work that Catholic Answers was doing for Christ's Church, so we decided to try to do our part as well. Thanks for being the 200th!
How To Be Christian Not so... The Catholic Church is in many ways demonic, in its institution of false and man made mandates that enslave and subjugate its followers to remain in their vicious cycle.
Me before the debate: no
Me after the debate: yes
James White was more on theoretical, less on biblical, which was in contrast with Mr. Trent's...
No bias, I am a Catholic but I am very satisfied with Mr. Trent's explanation...
Proud being Catholic.
Can you please show me exact verses? Please explain as well?
System Guy plenty of specific verses were give in the debate, they were heavily dismissed by Mr White.
Or were you inquiring on something more specific, verses that speak to something in particular?
No actual Christians can lose their faith...makes sense.
Of course you can. Once-saved-always-saved is an un-biblical, non-sensical fantasy. Making "sovereignty" mean a denial of free will and the need for cooperation is a way to have something we aren't supposed to have: the final judgement now.
I am so amazed how humble Trent during this debate. He definitely radiate God's love throughout. Thank you Trent and God bless! 🕊️
Yes! Well said!
@1:55:03 Trent Horn loses the debate and exposes the reason why Roman Catholicism is apostate.
He says not all those who are justified are glorified in Romans 8.
Romans 8:29-30
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30
@@elunico13 Yes, but how do you know YOU are one whom God predestined? You don't KNOW, ergo you do not have eternally security.
@@theamerican4609 Yes I do know, Satan. Romans 8:30 is one of many scriptures that tell me I am. Since I've been justified before God by believing the gospel, I know I'm predestined by God. Catholics can't know because they are never justified ever, in this life or after death. Read the 6th session of the council of Trent Canon 24.
Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.
Romans 8:30 NIV
@@elunico13 You didn't answer my question but instead just repeated scripture. How do you know you are predestined? Many have believed in the gospel as fervently as you and have 'fallen away", therefore you don't KNOW, you just believe it to be true as you should, but you may also fall away as others have because you can't know, you cannot foresee the future. Why would one have to "hope" and to "win the race" or claim to have "fought the good fight" if once you believe you can't fall away? Clearly, you fight for something you can lose; if you don't win, you lose; and if you hope, then it is because it is not a certainty.
Thanks Trent your one my top ten Catholic Convert Apologists Scott Hahn, Tim Staples, Steve Ray and many more. I love my Catholic faith I was lost and you let me back. God bless everyone who seeks the truth.
@@joemen3332 catholicism is a false corrupt doctrine
@@backtonature3464 That's not called an evidenced statement. You know what really is a "false corrupt doctrine"? Protestantism.
@valiant crusader Then I do not know which "Christ" you serve. I serve the King.
And Gary Michuta. The Catholic faith is wonderful and I’m glad you feel the same way I do :)
@@backtonature3464 Prove it.
"I wish Jesus would just carry my laptop like He carries my sins"
-Trent Horn
I admire Trent Horn because he is able to share information without anger.
No disrespect but anyone who has a bit of self control can deliver information without anger. The matter here is whether it's true or false.
Absolutely! Clearing the lies or misconceptions about our faith is no easy task. The Lord is with Trent.
@@angelicalee6 That is your own perception in this but really, or you trust in Jesus sacrifice or trust in your own works, through Mary, through purgatory, though money paid in Mass. At the end, you catholics believe you can Not loose your salvation. Did you see it? This is why God is Not God of confusion. Your god is...
@@j.3m.857 You are outside looking in, ignorant of our faith and theology. Having your own perceptions.
@@angelicalee6 l was part of catholic system for many years… until l started reading the Bible. Truth set me free. Purgatory is not in the Bible. The miraculous appearance of Mary who asked that a temple be built to venerate her is foreign to the writings of the apostles. Peter's letter does not talk about her. He only talks about being a servant of Jesus Christ. and you say that Peter is the first pope... all popes are devoted followers of Mary and Peter in his two letters, he never mentioned her. I speak according to the revelation of Christ and the foundation of the apostles. I don't know about you, but if you claim to be from God, you would have to renounce all doctrine of men. In the end you proclaim another way, another message of salvation, another Christ, another means of salvation. If they bring out Mary as a co-intercessor, they lose their business like Diana's followers in the book of acts.
Interesting when Trent started his cross examination, he tried to find some common ground with James by connecting with him over which city he lives in, and James writes him off with a cheeky response about how many others also live in this city.
I noticed this as well. It's pretty typical of James White, and pretty low. I wonder if he realises how much it puts people off.
@@gregcooper3773 but according to James white he is not prideful, lol.
you will know them by their denomination.
If you take that into effect notice how this kind of people treat anyone else. Why be nice, why do anything if I am saved.
Biggest question is how do you know if you are chosen. How do you measure.
In light of Biblical evidence presented by Trent Horn, Calvinism cannot stand as truth. Great job Brother Horn
We cannot say Calvinism is Biblical based on a few isolated texts which are more often than not, quoted out of context. Please listen to the debate prayerfully then respond. God bless
proud catholic from Philippines and i will defend my Catholic faith.
God bless brothers and sisters.
Please join us in Catholic Faith Defender
@valiant crusader May all confusion be dispelled from your heart and the minds of all people and may the Light of Truth shine in them, find out which church Jesus established, which church compiled the bible, and which church was Jesus was talking about when He said in 'Matthew 28:20"Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
haha robot jesus for sale. catholic bili kana ha? black Nazareth is demonic! itim na christo galing africa hehehehe.
Amen!
Why Jesus did not mention purgatory and limbo? Why Jesus did not promote making stone and worship it? Buddhist worship stone version of Buddha. Catholic worship stone fake version of wooden Jesus Christ version. 12 disciples never worship Mary but the Catholic worship Mary as queen of heaven. The gospel of Catholicism is fake. There is no historical evidence that Jesus came and stablish pagan Catholicism.
James White lost me when he brought up other Roman Catholic Doctrines. The Debate was about Eternal Security, not the Roman Catholic Church.
And, what was Trent Horn doing? Triggering White by calling out Calvinism, and attacking his theology. James White shut his mouth at, 2:13:00. A lesson for Horn - Don't mess with White!
@@danwilliams349 uuh, no.
@@danwilliams349 uhhh the debate was about some of the core doctrines of Calvinism (ever hear of Tulip?) The doctrines that white brought up were not a part of the debate.
@@gustavusadolphus4344 They are relevant. He is rejecting those ideas which gives more insight to his stance.
@@danwilliams349 bro that is the core doctrine of Calvinism
What a fruitful and respectful discussion. Debates have their time and place in the church, and I’m thankful for these scholars taking the time to dig for the truth.
I am a Protestant on the road to becoming Catholic, and this debate was an important piece to my journey. The thing that stood out most to me was how James White had to do cartwheels to explain Biblical passages, and Trent Horn simply read passages and let them speak for themselves...
Sharon Plascencia yes. Agreed.
Thank you, I noticed that as well. It was painfully awkward.
but again, the point James was making is that Trent's interpretations can't be right if they contradict the rest of the bible... This was stated numerous times. How do you miss it?
John 6:37-44 proves that those "given to Jesus by the Father" ie the "elect" cannot be lost. Fine, as a Catholic, I can completely affirm that. The problem is that advocates of the eternal security doctrine assume without any proof that they are indeed members of the elect when they have no way of knowing that. Furthermore, the elect are not the only ones who receive grace. As the parable of the sower talked about, there are those who "believe for a while...then fall away." They are not of the elect who were predestined to heaven but they did receive at least some grace (as evidenced by the seed going out to them) but after they accepted it, they fell away. And Galatians 5:4 just does not make any sense if it's impossible to be severed from Christ and fall away from grace. White's interpretation of Hebrews 10:29 is simply abysmal.
MatthewP - excellent analysis.
Sadly, the first sin is PRIDE. People are so fixated on proving they're right they forget that the important thing is the LEARN from the debate and, in this case, grow closer to Christ (and to cease offending Him and God).
Again, excellent work, I pray you keep defending the faith with patience and courage. God bless.
Great job by Trent Horn! Very impressive performance!
What a wonderful and illuminating debate by two very thoughtful and eloquent speakers. One of the most evenly-matched debates I’ve ever watched on Christian theology.
Brother Trent you are amazing.
Thank you brother in Christ.
And a huge thank you to Catholic Answers for putting this important and informative video up.
Mr. Trent has been quite good beyond my initial expectation of the debate turnout.
Wow! Trent Horn you truly had the upper hand in this and clearly "won" the debate. Especially towards the questions part, he didn't have a direct answer to your questions, kept going around in circles and talking about unnecessary things. It's so hard to listen to him, but with your presentation on the subject, Mr. Horn, I truly feel blessed and I've learned a lot! Thank you.
Faye Cooks I sense you didn't understand what the main issues of the debate were ie. monergism and synergism.
Faye Cooks great observation!
Chama cooks are you on drugs or are you Catholic? Or both?
1:47:00 to 1:48:12 James White dismantles his own argument...perfect response by Horn, "how do you fall from grace if you never had it in the first place" lol 😆
The same way that the sun moves from east to west even though it stands still and the earth revolves.
Both frames of reference are valid. Choose one and stick with it, and you'll describe the interaction between the sun and earth correctly. Switch midstream and you'll confuse the scenario.
*. God forekows, predestines, calls, justifies, glorifies.
* Man hears the gospel, believes, confesses, calls on the Lord, stays faithful till the end and is saved on Judgment Day.
Both perspectives are valid.
Hearing the gospel is a grace.
Believing truly is a different kind of grace.
Trent is conflating the two when he asks your question.
Dr. White said at 0:20 that "what we're doing here has more eternal impact", but if God has already predestined everything, then that doesn't make sense.
this is why a lot of their theology cannot support itself.
a lot of converted catholics from protestantism was told by other protestant that they will remain sinful, but when they were protestant they already accepted Jesus Christ as their savior, so they cannot tell ex protestant that they remain sinful, because they believe once saved always saved.
Never thought Bryan Cranston and Shia LeBouf would debate
LOL
Just say "I don't understand Calvinism".
"if God has already predestined everything, then that doesn't make sense."
Sigh. Only lightweights in theology say such things.
The arguments made by Trent Horn truly do make the most sense, that is why I am Catholic. The theology of Catholicism is not only ancient and comes from the time of Jesus Christ (as opposed to Dr. White's theology which is less than five hundred years old), but the theology of Catholicism makes the most sense as well. We are all made by God and have the choice here on earth to follow and obey God... or to disobey God, to sin gravely and go to hell. When we sin gravely, God will forgive us if we truly repent of our sin(s) and strive to live in holiness. If we do not repent and die in an unrepentant state, then we will go to Hell. God does not choose who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell, rather, He KNOWS who is going to Heaven or Hell based on how they respond to His grace. It is WE who make the decision to come to Jesus and stay with Him, or to walk away and continue in sin. We only have such a decision because Jesus Christ died for our sins. If it wasn't for Jesus' death on the cross, none of us would be worth of God's kingdom. We are all unworthy of Heaven because of sin, but Jesus Christ gives us the opportunity to live in righteousness, to do God's will and hold on to the salvation which was given to us by Christ in baptism. But we are human and we make mistakes, so if we sin gravely, for example, by committing murder, then we are not worthy of Heaven unless we repent. According to Dr. White, someone who commits several cold-blooded murders after having been saved is either A) Never a true Christian to begin with or B) Is a true Christian who will later repent of their sin and thus have been saved all along. But you see, this is really barely different from Catholic theology (which is more accurate and more in line with Scripture). In Catholic theology, God knows if you are going to Heaven or Hell, but He does not choose whether or not you go to Heaven or Hell. We are the ones who choose to listen to God who is our Shepherd and follow Him, or to go astray. When we go astray by committing sins (especially mortal sins), Jesus gladly takes us back if we repent. If we do not repent though, then we will be lost and at the end of our lives go to Hell. I am redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in him alone for my salvation, and, as the Bible teaches, I am ‘working out my salvation in fear and trembling’ (Phil. 2:12), knowing that it is God’s gift of grace that is working in me.
Stevin, take a look at this discussion. Go to U Tube and type in Protestantism & Evangelicalism Refuted by Jay Dyer. I promise you that it will really make you think in a different way than you have before. It is long but I have never seen a more cogent presentation of Protestantism anywhere.
@valiant crusader Wow! That's not a very Christian response!
It doesn't matter what your denomination. "You must be born again".
@valiant crusader a house divided against itself cannot stand. Are you really of Christ if you're going to attack people who have a different understanding to salvation than you? Also you don't know Roman Catholicism at all. If you did you wouldn't call it pagan.
@valiant crusader you apparently
I was there, such an awesome experience to meet Mr. Horn
A person that believes in Jesus Christ is Saved Jesus said He who believes in me Has eternal life , then if that person sins or lives the faith his eternal life was not eternal but temporal , please read 1a cor 5: 1-5 this man was in adultery with his fathers wife and Paul say at the end will be saved.
Truly a great debate, Trent horn so inspirational with that closing.
The devil comes as the angel of light
Trent: “ Because my opponent’s theology has to be true first, the bible has to fit it. Our theology should come from the bible not the bible from our theology”
Great Job! Trent. Dang!!!!
Ultimately Trent won. Because accurate and Orthodox soteriology should presuppose scriptural balance. And Orthodox and Catholic make the best efforts for balance between the Scriptures and Epistles, But Calvinists will always pit Paul against Moses and go through mental gymnastics to cling to their self evidently heretical belief.
It’s an amazing statement coming from a Catholic. Honestly, what a lack of self awareness.
Great job Trent. God bless you, and your 10 closing statement was fantastic. I am a practicing cradled Catholic. I have always known I am in the right faith, but at my age of 60, I want to be able to defend and explain it better to others. I have learn so much from you Trent. I love how you keep your cool, also. Thank you so much.
You should really pay better attention, my friend.
@@markmeyer4532 Trent is one of my favorites to listen to when explaining our Catholic Faith. I also love Brant Pitre. Our faith is so enriched with the Scriptures. Praise you Lord Jesus Christ.
@@markmeyer4532paying attention is what brings people here..
Why does the Catholic Church call themselves “Christians”? From my experience they don’t read scripture for themselves. We are to be Good BAREANS ❤‼️ why do you listen to doctrines of men who add to and take away from the “Word of Truth”⁉️ according to scripture any one who does this should be ACCURSED ‼️💯
Look at Romans 11:6! The idea of having to merit and increase grace is by definition a contradiction.
Just want to say that I am a reformed christian and that I love catholics.
Blake Jones we love you too!
Thanks, matthew! That is awesome!
Blake Jones no problem. I'm actually of fan of Dr. White. His work helped me talk to muslims I work with.
I appreciate the love! And yes, I love his work and how we respects those he debates. That is awesome! I really like Trent too. This is my first time encountering him, but I love his mind and demeanor. i would love to see another debate between them soon!
he
There is a very simple problem with the dogma of “once saved, always saved.” That problem is that it is just not biblical! The truth is, the dogma of “once saved, always saved” is part of the doctrines and commandments of men. Consider Matthew 15:1-20; Mark 7:1-23 → Galatians 1:6-20 and II John 1:7-11!
Thankyou Trent, you are a great inspiration to me as a Catholic....both on these issues, and on that of abortion....I very much to learn from you, God bless you and Mr White!
Dr. James White obviously is looking at this thru Calvanist Glasses. He is so wrong and needs to re-evaluate his stance. Truth is Truth in spite of one's own ignorance or self deception. Great Job Trent Horn!
I think you’re looking through your fallen flesh blinded eyes I think you need to actually study scripture and pray that God opens your eyes to his wisdom and truth🤷♀️
Thank you Trent Horn! Fantastic job. It took me 8 years of studying to realize I was baptized in the true Church of Christ. I've been on both sides of the Christian world, I can't be on the protestant side anymore. I love my devoted protestant brothers and sisters, but I can't be one. The idea that once saved always saved makes no sense whatsoever. We all know people who do whatever they want, behave in horrific ways in this world, and yet argue they are saved forever and ever. It just sounds so easy peasy in so many denominations. It's not easy to be a devout Catholic, but Jesus didn't promise "easy." I can't live without without the Holy Scriptures, without the authority of the Church, nor without our sacred Tradition, just can't.
Thank you Catholic Answers for posting!
The Orthodox Church is the one true Church. The Patriarch of Rome split from the other four Patriarchs in the 11th century, creating Roman Catholicism.
@@davidfigueroa8188 actually you might want to do some proper research.
Before the schism Catholics and Orthdoxy weee supersets but still friendly and they still ‘recognised’ the Seat of Peter in Rome.
However it wasn’t until the Muslims that started entering the east of Europe and they inevitably forced the orthodox to walk away from Catholicism
@@davidfigueroa8188 The Orthodox Church BROKE AWAY from the Catholic Church in the Great Schism of 1054 AD.
Neither debater here was defending a "Once Saved, Always Saved" idea. White's opening statement said as such outright.
@@davidfigueroa8188 I think that is backwards
I’m Lutheran, but I will stand in support with my Roman Catholic friends here
Of course because Lutheran's are Not Saved by GRACE Alone!
Btw..did you lose your Salvation yet...since you watched the debate?
@@cassandragarcia5548 You sound awfully sure of your salvation. You even seem to boast about it; even mocking another believer in Christ. In fact, you seem far more assured and confidant than the Apostle Paul in his earlier life, who said:
1 Corinthians 4:1-5
1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2 Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
read the context they were fighting over who was better/being baptized and or taught by a specific apostle. So he tells them to focus on christ not the servants of Christ because you cant see there true intents when they preach/teach
@@yes_senpai8880
@@cassandragarcia5548 you don’t speak like someone who was saved.
@@cassandragarcia5548 you sound prideful here. Are you sure YOU are saved ?
By what authority does James White proclaim the “correct” way to interpret the Bible? He uses the words of the Church Fathers to justify his position - however he does not accept the authority of those same fathers???
How do you conclude they are the words of the 'church fathers'? Because they said so?
Seems to me you are standing on circular reasoning rather than on what is God-breathed.
great job. Trent Horn. Very calm. full of wisdom and knowledge . I'm so proud being a faithful Catholic.
@valiant crusader why are anti Catholics always so hostile?
@valiant crusader I understand your passion, but frankly your hatred for "falsehood" seems to include hatred for those you perceive as practicing a false branch of the SAME FAITH
@valiant crusader okay, then why do you accuse Catholics of paganism? You might see certain aspects of RC faith as paganistic, but the issue is you use that as a derogatory insult
@valiant crusader so things which are true should just be naturally apparent to everyone who is not foolish, without guidance or explanation?
@valiant crusader and what is the truth that the rest of us Christians are missing out on exactly?
I gotta say, the Catholic really went to work.
Swept the floor.
Does the possibility exist for former Christians to lose salvation (supposing a protestant framework of understanding salvation itself)?
Yes or No?
If No, then how do you know with absolute certainty that they were never saved in the first place?
If you claim that Scripture tells you so, my question for you is, is your interpretation of scripture fallible or infallible. If you assert “fallible,” then that means that your private interpretation is subject to error, which also means that you can’t be absolutely certain that ALL former Christians were never saved.
Now suppose someone claimed that they were morally certain that ALL former Christians were never saved. My question for you is, does the possibility exist for SOME former Christians to have BEEN SAVED? If you responded “no”, then you’re claiming absolute certainty. However, Protestants can’t have this level of certainty regarding their private interpretation of scriptures.
Hence, the possibility exists for SOME former Christians to have been saved, but lost their salvation due to apostasy. Hence the Reformed doctrine of Eternal Security is false.
Really? Did you listen to the debate? Have you read your Bible?
@@ministryoftruth1451 We might ask the same thing of you.
@@Volmire1 there's no defense for the catholic view in the Bible. Idols, praying to "saints", etc. In fact it says the opposite. Study.
I appreciate both speakers respect for each other, these debates tend to get heated but can handle themselves well
This debate actually made me come to Catholicism. I wasn't sure of all the other Catholic Doctrines, but I began to listen to Brant Pitre, Scott Hahn, and other Catholic Answer speakers, including Trent Horn. As nice as life could be not needing to confess my sins to a priest and what not, logic and truth can only take you the the Catholic Church. I was born into a Catholic family, but when I really came to Christ at 20 years old, I was anti Catholic because I was listening to Protestants only and had a lot of protestant friends and was a few weeks from joining their church so I would say I was very unbiased. They cherry pick. Catholics really look at the hole picture and make sense.
The entire dogmatic tradition of the Catholic church is cherry picked. Development of doctrine is advocated for, for a reason.
Where’s the Mary adoration come from? 😳 be careful. Mass gives more focus to her than our Savior Himself!
Rome has fell away from pure doctrine and pursuit of Jesus.
@@Amencore that is false! You are lying and you clearly have never been to Mass. Mary is only ever mentioned once in the entire mass and only during the recitation of the Creed where she's referenced as having given birth to our Lord Jesus, and even then it's in the context of her relationship to Our Lord. The entire mass is dedicated to worshipping God, our Father, Lord and Saviour. No one else.
You clearly have never been to mass, otherwise you'd know this, which only makes it clear how your goal is not to inform but just to calumniate Catholics.
@@gilbertotoledo1421 I’m not lying. I’m basing off what I’ve heard and seen from mass.
It's very easy to fall into protestantism. It's literally everywhere, especially in the USA. In inner city areas theres always at least 5 or 6 protestant churches of competing denominations where there is only 1 Catholic church if you're lucky.
We are constantly bombarded by protestant influenced media that pushes, whether consciously or unconsciously, its protestant view of the world on us. Catholics are always being singled out, made fun of, or criticized by most protestant sects constantly as being wrong when they can't even agree on basic theology. To them we are always the bad guys, that is until they need an exorcism (I wonder why?).
If you're a nominal catholic that doesn't fully know his own faith, it's easy to cave to the protestant accusations and believe their lies or worse their heresies.
Thats why it's important to read the Bible but also the Church Fathers and the Catechism to know why we believe what we believe. Because our beliefs don't come from nowhere, they come from the written word of the Bible and the unwritten word of the Apostolic Tradition that St. Paul asked us to hold on to and which our protestant brothers have forsaken.
The Bishop of Rome sits on the seat of St. Peter, as the Patriarch of Constantinople sits on the seat of St. Andrew and the Bishop of Alexandria once sat on the seat of St. Mark. Let no one tell you that Catholics are not Christians for we, together with the Orthodox Church and the Eastern Churches, are the original Christians. We are the early church to whom protestant sects love to compare themselves to ironically. Stay strong in your faith brother.
“If only Jesus could carry my laptop like he carries my sins.” Somewhere around 56:00 😂 underrated comment of the debate.
I caught that, too! 😁
The problem is with the word "saved." All are redeemed. Not all are saved. We have free will, and we constantly have to fight the "flesh."
@ktownbball ktownbball Christ said we will be judged by our work not by our faith so you Protestant heretics must’ve twisted saint Paul’s epistle or misunderstood like you do the bible only the Catholic Church has the authority to interpret the bible
@ktownbball ktownbball is anyone making the argument that the OT laws saves us like Romans 3:28 refers to?
@@tonysaad3072 Wow such Christ Like love your showing him.
So what is the definition of “redeemed” and “saved” ?
Ephesians 6 verse 12 comes to mind. It is most important to remember that it is the forces of darkness that tempt us every day of our time here on earth. Tempting our own flesh and heart, as they tempt ALL others by way of the flesh and the heart. We must remember the commandment of our father to pray (without ceasing) in the son’s holy name ✝️
We bring our thoughts into the captivity and obedience of Christ, and rebuke all temptation in his holy name so help us God
Amen 🙏🏼
1:42:39 - Faith as a gift
1:43:25 , 1:46:33 , 1:47:50 , 1:48:45 - Galatians 5 and falling from grace
when trent referenced the prodigal son, I shed a tear and felt His Spirit fill my heart.. very well said, and like God said He was well pleased with St thomas, I believe He is very well pleased with what trent said
Bravo Trent Horn! Absolutely magnificence display of knowledge on the subject! That closing statement was so on point!
Props to Trent. Dr. White has lots of knowledge, but knowledge and wisdom are not synonymous.
And you think, you do tim?
tim spangler, "made you think I was claiming immunity from that universal reality" How did you conjure up that idea?
tim spangler, If what you said to Mike Stapleton is untrue, you use logic to show otherwise. You have ZERO chance of doing so.
tim spangler, What did Mike Stapleton say that made you think he was claiming immunity from that universal reality?
tim, Humility is the only human quality....whereby when you think you have it.....you dont
1:49:20 Good questionning there Mr Horn. That's the kind of questioning Filipino apologists wants to see all the time in debates.
As a cradle Catholic I can say when I was a teenager I heard the the protestant version of the gospel and was drawn in by the easy grace they proposed and the longer I listened the more I realized that they all believed different versions of truth. The more I juggled all these different versions the more I realized that the holy spirit would not give us a divided Christianity that Martin Luther gave. So thankful I realized the true church that I was baptized in.
@@JesusChurchBible Correct. If one believes that it’s impossible to obey they won’t obey, what we believe influences what we do, always.
Islam, Mormons, and JW's are also united in their belief. We aren't confused about how to receive salvation, and that's what matters since we all intend to endure to the end either way.
@barelyillegal As a cradle Catholic the Church NEEDED Reformation during the 1500's. But what Luther did is WRONG, he BROKE AWAY and SPLINTERED Christianity.
@@JesusChurchBible this is a really bad take. No Protestant teaches this. Romans 6: 1 and 2
@@Barefootseal_66 many protestants believe once saved always saved. Which means you can sin all you want... all the murder, rape, etc. and you'll still go to heaven if you were baptized or you simply believe in Jesus Christ died for our sins. That is a real teaching a hundreds of churches in this country. I've been to many, spoken to many people personally and watched many "pastor/preachers" online via text as well as CZcams videos teach this " "once saved always saved and go to heaven" false Gospel. I'm not making this up, nobody in Christian history believed this or taught this until Martin Luther taught this. He literally said people should kill thou. This is the same man that many people who new him thought he was mad and had a real mental problem. He said he sometimes hated God. And he was a known anti Semite and was quoted saying he wanted to murder Jews and hang them from the gallows. Jesus was Jewish by the way so this is wild to think an anti Semite teaching about Jesus. This is the man protestants get there teachings from. It's quite sad really. Most have no idea the history of who gave them there false protestant teachings.
"Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. No sin will separate us from the Lamb, even though we commit fornication and murder a thousand times a day" -Martin Luther
I like how they were both gentlemen about things.
One can never be overdressed or overeducated, Oscar. ;)
Resquiat In Pacem.
thanks for the upload, I got 7 hours of train ahead of me...this will help me through a part of it :)
Trent Horn is a great debater, so is Dr. James White. I came out of Roman Catholicism over 20 years ago and fall on the Reformed side now, but man, these are two very sharp men.
That's a real shame.
Come back home.
Trent’s explanation is whole and true! Thanks
Thank you for putting this up!
lol! I love Mr. Horns joke about Technical difficulties being ordained ahead of time !
Even St Paul said he could fall away if he failed to discipline himself.
I don’t know how anyone can read Matthew 25: 31-46 and not understand that you can lose your salvation.
I can definitely see how one can read that and say “one group didn’t live in love working through faith so they were never saved, but the other group did and that was a testament to their true faith and salvation”.
@@Migler1 But after you read James 14-26, you can not.
@@MarkelBeverley Well, that passage is not an issue if you believe in Ephesians 2:10 along with 1 Thess 5:23 and Phil 1:6.
That is also where some believe in the perseverance of the saints and lordship salvation. In no sense does James 2:14-16 indicate losing salvation, but rather it’s talking about a fake, not real faith, the same kind of faith that Jesus talked about in the parable of the sower.
But hey, I’m not here to argue or debate. I just think it’s important to accurately understand and represent what your counterpart believes.
@@Migler1 Thess 5:23 and Phil 1:6 and especially Ephesians 2:10 doesn't refute the fact that what God prepared for us is predicated on what he desires for us. That alone does not determine what we, agents of free will, will ultimately do. Also to Phil 1:6, penance has nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins and paying off the eternal debt that sin incurs. Christ did that once and for all on the cross and those graces are applied to us when we repent.
Penance comes after forgiveness and has to do with repairing the harm that sin causes.
James is not speaking on salvation in a temporal sense. He says faith itself is dead. In fact, he makes the point vividly by comparing it to a corpse: “For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead”
But hey, I'm not here to argue or debate either. I just think it's important to accurately understand and represent sacred scripture as well as sacred tradition.
Simple, losing salvation assumes human will ability to cause loss. Christ never once talked like that. Jesus infact said those who love him, who are already saved, WILL obey. They WILL do the will of the father. He and the apostles NEVER say “choose to obey” or “choose to believe”.
Jesus says - "If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
Paul said- Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed.
People who believe do not exit practiced sin, by human will. The spirit of God renews them and causes them to exit that life.
Paul-
And you WERE dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
But did we exit??? Or did God cause us to exit???
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, MADE us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved-
Watch…
and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Now….where is our will in any of that??? Where is our willed cooperation???
Paul tells us what cannot cause loss.
Romans 8:38-39 ESV
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, [39] nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This was a great debate to listen, thank you catholic answers for uploading this video
Really good debate. I always appreciate Catholic and Calvinist perspectives on these issues.
I was raised mormon and still technically am but I want to be Catholic. I remember I once had to do a research project of the early history of the church and it’s impossible even through all the flaws of men that this isn’t the church that Christ spoke of in Matthew 5:14
You need to leave Mormonism now. This isn't something that you can dilly-dally about.
Luma, think about this. Jesus started just one church, not churches. Ephesians 4 says there is one faith, one baptism one God and Father of all. Jesus in John 17 prayed we would all be one just as he and the father on one. Look up on CZcams, "The Veil Removed" to see what happens at a Mass.
@@EdwardGraveline facts. Its either Catholicism or you’re justifying faith to meet your own lifestyle not Christ’s
@@lumanate1493 There have been six saints who saw the Mass with Angeles and Jesus on the Cross and all the saints. Padre Pio said the same. check out the short movie called The Veil Removed to see what they saw.
Are you home in the Catholic Church? Praying for you
May God bless Dr. White. He carries the cross of Protestantism to help show how great Catholicism is.
@valiant crusader Be silent demon.. ..by your fruit (at least by the very little or no knowledge you've displayed so far for all to see) you are known.
Ill gladly accept your false retort gracefully.
@valiant crusader There's a good path out of your dilemma. Remember, Satan can appear as an angel of light and wreak havoc on your mind. His lies are painfully cunning and I'm no stranger to being duped by them. May God give you what you need to overcome your difficulties and receive the light of Christ's love for you. Be at peace friend. There's much beauty around you. Consider the beauty of the stars, the oceans, and all of God's good creation. Also, there's an encyclical by Pope John Paul II called, "Fides et ratio." Look it up if you get a chance. It contains this opening line, which as you will be able to tell, is in keeping with the goodness of the creation:
"Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth-in a word, to know himself-so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves." God bless you.
@valiant crusader Is this the type of thinking that following James White produces? You might want to pick another theology. I mean, consider what you're saying with the fact that Jesus instructs us to love our enemies. Doesn't it sound to your introspective self like you are condemning everyone? In any case, have a good one man.
@valiant crusader I didn't say I was insulted. I said you have placed yourself in role of God administering judgements out as if you were. You wouldn't make a fair judge at a traffic violation hearing, how do you think you are fairing as the judge of the world? Peace.
@valiant crusader I'll get back with you later. This whole section is an improvement for you. At least you are trying to make a case for yourself beyond simply derogatory terms. The question is, have you understood what is being said in the Bible verses you have quoted as it petains to the way you have decided to carry it out? I don't think so. But again, at least you have expounded a bit. Ttyl.
I'm a protestant Christian and I feel like Trent is more of a brother in the Lord then Dr White, by how Trent handled the Scripture. Twist not Scripture lest ye be like the devil.
kevlar kevin horn is a bit more humble
kevlar kevin
Can't wait until you come home to the Church :)
Keviar, take a look at this discussion. Go to U Tube and type in Protestantism & Evangelicalism Refuted by Jay Dyer. I promise you that it will really make you think in a different way than you have before. It is long but I have never seen a more cogent presentation of Protestantism anywhere.
Don't leave your protestant faith because you do not understand everything as a protestant, Catholicism is anathema and you will see this when the return of our Lord and Saviour, just because you watched this from a Catholic uploader and obviously all the Catholic and Muslim commenting will be one-sided, if you are a true evangelical protestant Christian then watch on an unbiased upload. Don't fall away brother, in fact you can't fall away if you are in the Lord's elect, it is impossible. Catholic and Muslims know not Christ and Christ will profess in that day that He never knew them, I promise you that with my life
@@The1SilverShadow If I recall correctly, James White's ministry has the same video uploaded in their CZcams Channel, as well as other debates, but somehow their comments section are disabled? Maybe that's why he went here.
I could never believe like Calvin ever again as he ultimately makes God the author of sin.
Precisely!
Your belief is man centered if you think you can choose to reject God's Grace.
@@Knildragon No it is not.
@@Knildragon it’s far more complex than Arminius or Calvin bud. You keep bending scripture to stay within your doctrine and keep telling everyone else their way is “man centered”. You Calvinists are modern day Pharisee
I’m afraid you are mistaken. Calvin never made such assertion.
How is James White gonna say his argument isn't "Once saved, always saved" when that sounds exactly like what he's arguing.
hahaha, I like to call him the spin-doctor, he will talk so much, red-herring, straw-maning...you will lose track what's he talking about ! He IS the master, I will have to admit after listening to him for awhile
Once saved, always saved could include someone who signed a card or made a profession of faith in Christ while continuing in all his sins and having absolutely no change in his life. This is why James White distinguishes himself from it.
I don't think James White has any problem with the strict literal meaning of the words "Once saved, always saved", but when used as a slogan, it's associated with a particular teaching that goes beyond the literal meaning of the words.
Yeah, there seems to be some confusion on his part.
@@leahunverferth8247 Yes I think by once saved always saved he means a person who made a profession, never has a change, doesn't want to do good works, never progresses in santification, but said a prayer or was baptized or something and is supposedyl justified from it
I hope to see more debates like this. Very valuable for my understanding of both worldviews. I keep noticing new things each time I watch it.
Trent Horn thanks you cleared away all confusion, you dispelled it from the hearts and minds of all people listening to you. May the Light of Truth shine on all our separated brethren.
they are not true brothers: they are reckless heretics...
You would of course mean those that are anathema? To be cursed? As per the counsel of Trent?
@@silveriorebelo8045
Don't use that phrasing
"But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16 keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander."
1 Peter 3 15:16
GENTLENESS AND RESPECT
@@christopherneedham9584 Anathema or not, they are separated brethren we are obligated to bring back, but DO NOT use inflammatory language. That's unchristian.
See my other comment.
@@alonsoACR as per the counsel of Trent, they are not separated brethren. They are anathematized heretics. All Catholics who argue against this are opposition to the dogmatic teachings in that counsel.
This was an absolutely amazing debate, I think clearly Trent was owning throughout this whole debate, there at the end I have to admit I was a little shaken, this was mainly because I began to question things in my faith. It certainly showed me that I still have work to do regarding my understanding of truth, but this is not to say that Trent was not for a moment spot on. He sure proved himself a great apologist throughout the debate, and also in his closing arguments. The only thing that would have made this all more complete for me was if Trent would have been able to school James as to just why the theology of Catholicism is in fact biblical, and is not just theology read into the scripture the way James is obviously writing his in. I would have gladly stayed a few more hours to watch that happen. If you should ever happen to read this comment, I just wanted to say, God Bless you Trent, and Thank You. 🙏🏻
Hi. Maybe that's because it wasn't the topic of the debate, but if you want you can check out Trent Horn's CZcams channel (Counsel of Trent). He dives deep in those topics!
James White sister converted to Catholicism. Great job James 👍
Really? Where's the link for her testimony?
@@ReyWhocheck out journey home with patty bonds as guest
That his sister
Rubbish
Not his fault his sister has bad theology
@@jordangarvin9282 Despite the bad influence of her brother, she managed to make it to the actual Church, so that is commendable.
Thanks for posting this, Catholic Answers!
Jorzz Crackz Hahah yes, sir! 🙌🏽
I gave you a thumbs up just because of your name. It made me giggle for a good 5 minutes.
much respect to Mr.Horn and Dr.White :D both were calm and have their arguments said explicitly.
I am reformed and I respect Trent, very articulate! :)
I see 2 loving men that truly desire to worship God to the best of their abilities. I'm still learning all of this, but that I can see❤
These guys are so quick and their recall is impressive. I struggle so much with scripture memory.
Go Trent!!! That was a fun debate!
I love that this is a true debate! So amazing and yes Trent horn crushed it! May God bless all
Amanda The only thing Trent crushes here is the gospel
Trent Horn crushed everything, because he is not following Man made religion. He learn from the early Church father. They pass the deposit of faith to Church. The Catholic Church established by Jesus Jesus Christ.
I think watching this debate with all Mr White statements really prove me that I am less patient than I thought. I don't know how Trent did to remain calm. Great job Trent, you exposed your point with so many grace, charity and clarity. Keep on the good work, and God bless you for what you're doing for his church.
I would say white won this, but just barely. I agree with whites position, but from a neutral standpoint, I would say, Trent did an awesome job explaining himself. The reason I agree with white is because white reads text exegetically and Trent reads plainly. White reads hermeneutically through an exegetical contextual point of view and Trent reads from an “open book read as you see it” kind of approach.
The scripture themselves say that you can’t just read scripture plainly because if you’re reading it from the point of view of unregenerate unbeliever, you won’t understand it. Scripture is a spiritually discerned text.
@@HillbillyBlack Your second statement is abjectly false
@@explodingrubberducky797 would you say reading scripture is a spiritually discerned action?
@@explodingrubberducky797 put another way, would you agree the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolish to them , and they are not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned?
@@HillbillyBlack You're taking that from 1 Corinthians 2:14. However, that's not necessarily talking strictly about unbelievers. Because in the next chapter 3. Paul tells the Corinthians this:
1 Corinthians 3:1-4
And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; *for until now you were not able to receive it *, and even now you are still not able; 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and [a]behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?
☝He tells the Corinthian believers that they are carnal and could not receive solid and had to be fed milk as babes
God bless you Trent
Glory to The Holy Trinity! Thank you Mr Trent Horn. We have you in our daily praying.
@Michael Trn May the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost have mercy on your soul.
God bless trent horn for enduring the debate.... So many souls are being saved.... And in the least are led to doubting the heresy that once saved,go party..no trembling to work your way to salvation
You don’t have to work your way to salvation what you say is foolish, We who are in christ and remain do have salvation. We are sealed untill the day of redemption. The Bible clearly states that it’s not by world that we’d are saved but by grace. So that no man can boast Ephesians 2:8-9
This same debate happens in Buddhism with the idea of Nirvana. Some Buddhist schools believe that once you are “enlightened” into Nirvana, that you can not lose it, while others (Zen) believe that you can reach it, and then lose it. I guess I am a Zen Catholic.
Trent Horn!! yeah!!
Mr. Staples May God bless you with long life to continue to teach us. You come across with such patience n humility n not a single note of anger unlike mr. White. I love ur voice by the way it suits ur job as an apologetic.
When I grow up I want to be like Mr. TRENT HORN
So you want to be like a sinful man just like yourself already? I would like to be like my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that is what you should aim for. Idolizing a man? Come on dude
🙏
Too bad you didn’t say that you would want to be more like Jesus Christ in Christ likeness, not a fallen man’s likeness😢
@@carolwilliams383 it’s insane that you’re implying people can only have one role model. What a bad faith, condescending comment
Great debate! Some comments seem to make it out to be between catholic and Protestant theology but James white is the only one that seems to address the debate in that way. This is a debate James has had with other Protestants as well.
Wow Trent horn your amazing!!! You killed it great explanation!
Jane's white went to work and won the debate I dont know what you are talking about
What drugs are you on? Did Christ die for our sins or not?
Manuel Silva
White is a waste