OMG If You Coil Your Speaker Cable You're Gonna Lose Fidelity?!?
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- čas přidán 27. 02. 2021
- What happens if you coil excessive speaker cable on the floor? Will it act like an inductor? Will you lose performance or fidelity? In this video I demonstrate through measurements exactly what happens and determine whether or not it should be a concern to any audiophile.
Learn more about cable inductance: bit.ly/3pZRgK9
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#cables #audiophile #speakers - Zábava
Finally, someone who is putting REAL SCIENCE behind speaker cables! Thankyou Audioholics!
Wouldn't you know after 2 years, 69K views and only 3K likes . People don't like hearing the truth ...
I worked i a physics lab we did similar test but more testing on sound coming off the speaker we used hi end research gear. and NADA .... when we measures at the cables at connectors. how tight the binding posters were made a difference but so far out from audio range and human hearing ... well unless the connections were loose that made a difference anyone could hear.. like cracking.
Super looking forward to the next vid of measuring audio performance from different cables. Good stuff !
Thanks for talking some sense into me Gene. I was starting to get sucked in to all the fancy braided cables when I know better. My 12 gauge in wall cable is just fine.
More and more I find myself making the same statement to my audio buddies.
Does it make a difference? Yes
Can you measure the difference? Yes
Can you hear those differences? Most likely not
Do you want to spend money chasing that kind of difference? Most Likely Not
“Most likely not” is more like “definitely not” unless your mates come from Krypton or something
I have noticed that room size and shape make so much more of a difference that the coil issue is just silly.
Hello
The same can be said for any audio equipment then. Why spend 10 grand on a set of speakers if you can get a set with the same frequency response, same amount of speakers? Especially if the room is what will give you the most control over the overall sound? Is the change in wave guide the game changer? I mean you can measure the difference the wave guide has on the crossover point can you not? Can the majority of people hear the difference? And is that difference worth another 8 grand? The amp might be more efficient at running your speakers, can you HEAR the difference? I find it interesting how the audiophiles get a lot of flack, yet even at the other scale the differences in the tech you get from each price jump is just as "emotionally driven" when choices are made. Why did gene chose the speakers and amps he did given what else is comparable out there? I mean sure he can maybe measure the differences, but can he hear then? And is the difference worth the extra in price, and if not WHY make the choice. There is a measurable difference when the cable was rolled up, in that respect no one was wrong. Can the difference be heard? Well again, I'll refer you to what I've just written.
@@nihilityjoey You pretty much proved my point. Just in a LOT more words. Unless you have money burning a hole in your pocket, just buy what sounds good to you that is reasonably within your budget. Room setup is free, treatment costs a bit. I would argue that the extra 8k might be better spent on room treatment than the speakers. You'd have measurable AND audible improvement if done right.
Thanks Gene, you are a real asset to us audioholics
You should see my velcro-tied bundle of cables behind my setup. I haven't noticed a lick of difference in audio performance as opposed to having a rats' nest of wires.
I was recently wondering about exactly this, not just for speaker cables but for any cable. Thanks for doing the measurements and showing the calculations. Very helpful.
Coiling cables only become an issue when there is a larger load, potential temperature increases and when the cable has a very long distance to cover.
In building electrical systems it can become an issue when there is something like an electric shower or motor being driven with a cable covering hundreds of feet.
So how they overcome issues with electrical cables they use larger cross sectional areas to drive impedance down so in other words they use a thicker cable.
Exactly what I was looking for, on what to do about extra cable length , thank you Gene!
Thank you for the true facts and going through the details in explaining how you came up with the results and if it will affect the sound quality. Your a true master Sr. Keep On Keeping On
So not even if we had the hearing of a bottlenose dolphin or a bat... would coiling our cables make an audible difference! :) Thanks for the video Gene!
Nonononnoo... of course it makes a difference, only, we cannot measure it ;)
@@Baerchenization ...so, it doesn't make a difference to US...
Great video Gene thanks for quantifying it.
Thank you for pointing out the coil effect for last 11 years i wondered if the extra 2 meters i have on all 4 back channels would cause any interference. It be nice to see you put big brand cables to the SWORD LOL.👏👏👏
Nice video. I always knew this to be the fact (as an EE), but had never seen measurements and conclusions before. Very nice. I would like to see a review comparing balanced vs. unbalanced cables for sound quality. I don't think there should really be any difference for reasonable lengths.
FULLY balanced, of course there is a difference with a two-wire active balanced were cold is out of phase of hot, versus the unbalanced with only the hot connector. Also a fully balanced +4dB output has about 6dB bigger headroom - more dynamic range.
Nice video.. I always wondered if this was or was not a factor. Real world knowledge like this very useful. Thnx!
Good stuff Gene, could we see some tips on tidying cables in the back of audio racks/cabinets sometime? Like the average 4-5shelve units with multiple components and a myriad of wires!
Great info as usual Gene
Thank you for doing this Gene.
I always tell people if you can hear it, you can measure it. Don't relay soley on listening tests, espeically if its someone else listening. And I am not saying different things can't sound different because sometimes they do. Just that if someone is claiming some crazy attribute about something and it can't be measured they are probably BSing you. And just because something measures or sounds different doesn't mean its bad. It all boils down to personal taste. I have some headphones that measure very flat or are on the Harmon target curve. I personally don't care for them. Its just not a sound "I" like. It might have to do with my tastes or my hearing. My old abused ears just don't hear flat anymore lol.
I like that you did the test and proved it does actually effect it. Then you did the math to show HOW it effects it and where. You are right, most can't hear can't hear that high (if anyone). Heck I can't hear to 10K if that high. And when I do all I hear is hiss or noise anyway. I am actually more sensitive to bass. I can easily hear or feel down to 10 hertz.
I remember years and ago a high shop let me take home and demo some high end cables once. When I brought them back he asked me what I thought. I told him I wasn't sure, maybe they were a bit better but it wasn't night and day. Certianly not enough to warrant the price of the cables. Especially on my relatively cheap audio system. I mean if I could afford and had a 10,000 dollar or up system then sure I guess I would do it. However when your entire system cost like 1500 to 2000 bucks expensive cables didn't make much sense to me. I will give them credit though they looked great and were really well made. And I think they were only like 1 or 2 hundred dollar cables not some of these stupid crazy expensive ones.
Thank you. Very informative and matter of fact delivery.
Thanks for measuring that. I’ve always wondered if it made a difference. Now we know!
Great video. I’m a avid music listener and your expert advice really helps.
Enjoy your videos. You have great way of explaining the topics.
Thank You Sir. You are alway's so Informative and your straightforward way of conferring information is very refreshing!
Awesome video!!!! I have speaker cable coiled to hide the extra and wondered about this. Thank you for sharing.
Thank you Audioholics. Awesome Channel
Thank God that up. I was seriously worried that my coiled cables had beginnings of creating a black hole. Phew, I can rest in peace now :-)
How about do some measurements of the effect of having power cables next to audio cables? Balanced and unbalanced. Thanks!
i have seen the effects of this in car audio and if not properly separeated or installed with supressors that changes the fedlity of your equipment, the engine noise comes through so yes that you would be nice to know
To my understanding it’s best practice to keep power cables separated to reduce the chance of noise interference but of course with multi channel processors, multiple amplifiers, and wide variety of devices connected that becomes more of a challenge. Would be nice to know if it is worth the effort to organize all the cables neatly or does balanced cables eliminates any potential problems.
@@08ExigeS240 aggread for the same reason it posses an interest for me as it has become difficult to separate.
@@Jcan4u yes in car audio i def found that out too
I use a voltage tester on high sensitivity so it gives me that extra couple inches from where it picks up a current other wise electrical interference on standard is not much then a inch or two. Use it to keep speaker cables apart from each other as they have a current it picks up. And thx to my brother i have some conduits made by icore who produce stuff for the military and airlines to avoid 0% electrical and radio signal coming into your cable. i have put about some on my power cables and on high sensitivity the voltage meter picks up 0% of electrical current. Only have it because when icore would make a mistake producing the conduit it would get scrapped lol lucky for me simple thing like couple mm wide or thin made it defect lol. Even have there conduit that has a metal braid outside then the conduit inside it and that goes for £200 a meter + i have 7 meters of that also thanks to my older brother who worked there.
Thank you, good to know and thanks for sharing, I have just moved house and need to set up my system again.
Thank you for another informative video!
Thank you! I've been wondering about this for a long time... but was too lazy to do the measurements myself.
great video. very useful info
Wow, I had this question after thinking about me and my dad making an electromagnet back when I was in fourth grade. I didn’t expect it to make a diff in sound, but thanks for the breakdown.
Thanks. Great technical explanation. Erases any doubt.
Great review, thank you! 👍This perfectly answers my question on whether I can buy similar lengths speaker wires and get any loss in sound quality since one speaker is 6 feet closer to receiver than another. I should see no audible difference.
Nice to know that my thinking was actually correct!
Very interesting video
I love the shorter cables you can get from Monoprice. I bought a bag of 1 ft power cords for a decent price because my power strip runs right behind my gear, same with interconnects. Gets rid of a lot of "cable clutter "
Gene and Amir shining a light on the murky home audio industry. Awesome work guys.
I take it that you are an owner of murky audio equipment and listen to it. What would you say to the murky food your wife dishes up to you, do eat it because you have to or do you enjoy it, where is the science in it.
@@nicoras8803 what are you talking about?
These are the only two channels for me.
@@nicoras8803 You forgot to take your crazy pills buddy?
Hi, Gene,
Very interesting and well done work. As we can see, the increase in inductance, comparing a cable straight and the same cable coiled is minimal: 2.36uH to 2.56uH. It could be also interesting to compare the cable capacitance in the same both conditions (straight cable and coiled cable).
Regards.
I really like that you use science to differentiate between best practice, bull crap, and reality. At the end fo the day peopel spend a lot of time, energy, and money on things that in reality, don't improve, or degrade their experience, which is what it should be about, the experience and enjoyment of the hobby and content. I mean the producers of content, don't put as much effort in to signal integrity as some of these home listeners do. Overkill to a fault.
Agreed. it has very little affect because the load is so strong, or low impedance 8 or 4 ohm. Do the same measurement on a low line level signal between something with 1v line level RCAs, then coil it and connect it to a high impedance input - something with like 10k ohm input, or even better, into a phone pre-amp.
Thank yu for very well done analysis
Although I have no idea what you're talking about, your message is clear! Thanks for saving me $1,000's on my wire budget as I'm building my 2.0 system now.
My speaker cables has over 80" left-over because I move from a bigger room to a smaller, coiled behind the AVR, bothers me should I cut it? with a few slack to avoid tension. Thanks Gene for put the time on look into this subject.
I wouldn't take the trouble. Inaudible effect.
For a cable that long, you should absolutely do something about it, and it will be audible.
You don't have to cut it, just lay it back and forth cross wise so the loops cross each other.
Here is a real professional big name expert (he is a really big deal in pro-audio) doing a nice demo of signal loss in a speaker cable.
czcams.com/video/KKooWhMGT-k/video.html
The example is extreme for most home audio, but applies directly to you. It is the first in a short series, I suggest you watch them all
@@joshua43214 Thank you very much, definitely gonna check it!
UR new house rocks man GLAD 4 U Man
Capacitance of long speaker cables is much more of a stability issue in amplifier design. We add a inductor of 0.8 to 1.2 uH internal to the Amp. Extra inductance formed by a small length of speaker cables coiled under your couch might actually not be too bad a thing.
Dude congratulations! You should do a different speaker cable every week and build out a database! It, sounds to me like an ideal speaker cable would be one with enough inductance to roll off all the noise above 20k what choo think about that? I think it's that much less flux in the tweeter affecting field stability. The energy levels may be small, but add them up like the "Ultraviolet Catastrophy" and the energy across such a broad range of frequencies may be of some subtle significance.
But then my super tweeters wouldn't work......lol
I'm pretty sure Danny Richie invented the Wayn Kerr meter. It's named after him.
That was a good one!
Hi Jean does having speakers in a set up of difrent ohms adds any difficulty in setting up your system ?
Thank you! Proper debunking!
Would there be any chance of a video ,about what are the effects of having power cable in coil, compared to figure 8.
Hey Gene would it be possible to make a video about good quality affordable component racks?
Real engineering! Thank you!
What do you think of Ehtan Weiner's Null Tester? Can you / will you get one?
Oh my God, I love these thumbnails! pure #audioangst!!!
It's great that you can give the details of these components that are part of systems.
However, as the whole purpose of each system is to deliver sound to the listener's position in space, shouldn't you be measuring the differences to that, when you make changes to the type/length/connectors/topology etc. of speaker and interconnect cables?
Thanks for videos.. I want to add an amp to my av receiver but not enough preouts have you used or recommend russound 1.2 adp speaker level to line level adapter...or do you have any other recommendations
Just found you great info.
I once put a pair of bookshelves right next to my amplifier, coiled up the excess wire and stuffed it into the port of the speaker, well the tweeters melted from parasitic oscillation in the feedback of the wire picking up the driver's emited EMi. You may want to add a word of caution on where these coils are placed. A little bundle right next to the speaker is in my experience an absolutely catastrophic mistake. I feel EMi is highly underestimated, especially around single ended RCA interconnects, I'm pursuing braided power cables and toroidal power supplies for that very reason. But just interpreting the "inverse square law" with enough sense to not stuff wires inside your speakers is probably enough to avoid a meltdown ;P
My god what sort of a load where you driving. Was it a 100,000 volt system with thousands of amps of fault current?
@@bighands69 Naw just some rather forgettable entry level Pioneer receiver from the 70's running Philips bookshelf speakers, the ones with the 2" ribbon tweeters and 5" grey concave woofers. in pretty cherry cabinets. Very nice build quality on those with buttery smooth port flaring. Volume was elevated, but was listenable in loudness. Probably less than 80db. The thing that melted the tweeters was the Parasitic Oscillation, it ramps out of control at high frequencies. Sounded fine.
Thank you for getting the truth out.
Great info 👍I did wonder 💭..
Thank you
Have you ever measured various types of terminations? I've heard spades are best but which ones, and are they measurably better than bananas?
Gene has said that he doesn't prefer spades because they can become loose, not because they are less conductive. I agree - it would be interesting to see someone measure various termination types - I have to think that there would be no audible difference but am curious if even the tiniest measurable difference could be detected.
Many thanks for your very professional investigation and presentation! As an engineer I totally agree with your findings! It is always important to judge the relevance of values and you really showed the facts with your test and calculations. Impressive!
Appreciate your scientific knowledge
Does difference in speaker cable lengte have an influence. For example left channel 2,5 meter and right channel 5 meter?
Or better keep them the same and coil the left chanel cable lenght?
Wayne Kerr? Hahaha. What a great name. He needs to meet my friend, Jack Mehoff.
very good
I love your utube videos!!! So much info.but my question is can you cover the best speaker cable type for electrostatic speakers, I have a pair of vintage Acoustats 6600, someone told me that Neotech Cable -Nemos 3080 is the best. They said it is a occ cable? Do you know anything that is not overly expensive. Thank you
Gene, I know you don't like these cable questions. But, when I look at your charts, the Kimber 8TC and 4TC seem to perform better and flatter across frequencies than all the others. Am I reading this right? I'm thinking the others will actually cause rolloff above 5 or 10khz. Did I read it right?
Technically the coil for twisted pair has little effect except the cable is too long with the extra length adding more resistance due to more length, more capacitance due to more length, and more inductance due to more length. Resistance, inductance, and capacitance are all per foot or per unit of length properties of any cable.
For test equipment, consider adding a TDR to your tool kit as it can be used to measure the nominal impedance of cable as well as length if the dielectric is known or dielectric constant if the length is known.
If your speaker cables were two single conductor wires and you coiled them each by themselves, the yes, you make a solenoid cable. However if you coil a braided, or twisted pair cable, you again have an inductor, but in a configuration known as a Bifilar Coil. The inductance reacts to common mode current on the cable, not the differential mode signal to the speaker. See Bifilar Coil for more information.
I always thought it was about interference. Is there a measurement for that?
Please do pwr cables mixed with speaker cables and/or RCA cables?
Like everyone else, i separate them.
Its a massive hassle though.
If it doesnt make a difference it will make a huge difference to my cable management
Hey Gene, as an electrician who has done well over 500 RJ45 ends (CAT 5/6/7). I watch videos of people saying we need to maintain the twist as much as possible into the RJ45. I think it’s hog wash because what is 1 to 3 mm going to make in the long run of a cable, that could be as much as 100 meters? Especially inside the devices the cable is plugged into. When the traces on the board travel several inches to the microchip for processing.
I know this video dealt with speaker cables. But CAT 5/6/7 are also a big part of the HT industry, as you know. With that said, and with the equipment you have. Can you do a test on a CAT5/6/7? Where one cable has the wires straight inside the RJ45 and an other where they are twisted until the very end? Keeping in mind the frequency the cables are used at as well.
Most of the audio bro science is nonsense. The figures involved in such systems simply would have no effect on the current being carried by the cables or the voltage.
As an electrician you probably already know the sorts of figures that are required for voltage drop to become a problem and speakers systems in the home are nowhere near that level.
I think the twisting in RJ45 has more to do with common-mode rejection than electrical characteristics. Any straight part has the potential to become an antenna for EMI. It's probably just good practice more than anything else. A few cm of straight wire won't do a world of difference in the error statistics, but it's nice to be safe.
Did you test the cables with real high current swings? as it is during music playing? The difference will be clear during heavy loads and load swings.
"wayne kerr" lol, there are lots of "wayne kerrs" in the audiophile world
especially cables, you stole my thunder lol
I always... and I emphasize A L W A Y S hear this manufacturer with a Beavis and Butthead voice in my head... MTV damaged my childhood. Ha! =o)
Is he a friend of Mike Hunt?
Thanks Gene, Just a bit of study in regards to inductance and capacitance and working with the math involved. Would give people a much better idea about how things can be orders of magnitude to small to hear.
Thank you 👏👏👏
me liking this engineering measurement of audio-related gears and components...
Can try to measure CAT7 LAN cable compared with normal speaker whether any significant difference
Well that depends if the cable is coiled on carpet or hardwood floors. Also if it's the first Tuesday of the month on a leap year.....
clockwise or counter-clockwise?
@@user-ex9zm7bg3x Ohhh that all depends on the phase of the moon. Clockwise if it's a new moon. Counter clockwise only on odd number years...
Hi Gene -- your blogs are fantastic. Would you consider doing a review of portable audio players as these things are swimming in gallons of snake oil.
do you guys have any updates on the yamaha avantage series for 2021 i want a new receiver but looks like onkyo is out of business
you and your measurements ! How am i gonna sell special magic wooden cable risers ?
fantabulous
Love that you're a Grogu/Mando fan. Raises the status of your site to 11!!!
Is there a way to measure RFI on cables? I have a couple of cheap radios with a length of thin cable which picks up the radio frequency waves. Unless someone convinces me otherwise I'm sure all cables in AV are to some extent acting as aerials and degrading sound.
I connect my spkrs with twine, sounds great!!!
Hi, does ferrite cores on RCA audio interconnect cables affect sound quality? Thanks.
And not to mention, that was the entire 20ft coiled when you tested it.
so yeah, coiling a few extra feet matter not. great video.
How about comparing OCC vs OFC speaker cable? Can you do a vid on that? I've done my own comparison, but I want to see a pro do it with those pro tools. I've done it from individual recordings and analysis of those outputs and there is most definitely a difference in performance.
Lol. Ofc vs copper is more related to coffee straw vs fountain drink straw lol
Danny will have a fit... 😆
Is that excel sheet located somewhere on your website or only available for your patrons?
It's internal but I will be putting all the cable data I measure on our patreon soon
Did you go with a right-hand coil or a left-hand coil?
My speaker cable's are 2 weeks past their expiration date and are now starting to sound stale. Anyone else experiencing this?
I cryogenically treated mine for freshness but now they won't stop shivering.
It is probably oxidation that is causing a lowering of the potential electron affinity. Or I could just say it is horse crap.
This subject has been haunting a good portion of viewers and I do remember the conversation I had with salesmen giving me that very faulty information; at the time of this "Inception", I was young and very naive.
I thought the twisted pair speaker cable is more resistant to ambient RF interference/noise. No?
MS Natural Keyboard 4000... love them, but so hard to get.
This is the reason I have yet to do cable management behind my rack ;). It's a MESS!!
If you have 500 cables behind there you may have a problem but it is unlikely that you have that many cables back there.
What do you think of GR Audio perspective on cables
Nauseating
I coil mine. They are pretty stiff so I can pull them out and when I put them back the coils fall right back into place. It's 12 awg shielded with a braided sheathing. Sounds great.