Another thing about Vergil's battles I wish you'd mentioned is that it has the perfect display of how you improve, both as a player and a character. In the first battle, Dante gets his shit kicked in, like you do as a player. But after getting his DT, his second battle with his bro ends with a draw, culminating with the finale where Dante takes him out for good. It all just clicks so well.
While you've more or less completely outlined the reasons why Vergil as a character was a narrative success in Devil May Cry 3, I feel like the gameplay progression of his boss fights is also important to the lasting impression he's made. The first time you fight him, you don't have Devil Trigger, your Style is maybe Level 2 if you've been focusing on one at a time, and you've reached competency in the use of whatever you've chosen as your bread and butter from the three Devil Arms you've unlocked at that point. Vergil similarly chooses not to use Devil Trigger and relies on some relatively simple but dangerous moves with Yamato alone and maybe some Summoned Swords. He's also kinda passive-aggressive in this state, liable to stand around and posture for a bit, like he's lording his superiority over you, and not terribly keen on pursuing you beyond cancelling into a rising cut if you jump over his combo like a shmuck. The second time you face him, you probably have at least one style maxed, are even more skilled, have access to pretty much every weapon in the game aside from Beowulf and Kalina Ann, and possess Devil Trigger. Here, Vergil has a new weapon of his own, freely uses Devil Trigger, is much more likely to employ Summoned Swords if you're on higher difficulties, and delivers his attacks in a more complicated and dangerous pattern. He's more aggressive then as well, attacking more explosively and for longer periods of time before taking a shorter breather in between clashes. It's a fairly no-nonsense fight compared to the previous, though not exactly high stakes. By the time you reach the third fight with Vergil, you've unquestionably attained at least a low form of mastery and have every option in the game at your disposal. Vergil himself only has one moveset now (one-and-a-half on higher difficulties where he makes use of Yamato as well as Fore Edge), which echoes that of your first Devil Arm Rebellion in a manner I find almost nostalgic, like things are coming full circle. As predictable as this makes a fair number of his moves (which itself might be a nod to Dante having grown to surpass him since the first confrontation), he is absolutely, viciously, unrelentingly aggro in this form, like he's either furious or desperate at the fact that Dante still stands in his way. In all the character action games I've played since, I've never come across anything that feels quite like it. The second fight against Jetstream Sam is more like Round 2 of the same duel, both fights against Dante in Devil May Cry 4 are just him trolling Nero, and the Adam, Eve, and A2 fights of NieR: Automata all have a vastly different context and dynamic.
Speaking on the point of Virgil, one thing that sticks with me is when Virgil encounters Beowulf. The player is scaling the tower, getting better both skill and Arsonal wise, but before the second Virgil fight you see what happens when one of the towers bosses encounters him. Not only does Virgil simply annihilate Beowulf, he himself acquires a weapon in the same manner as that player, Combo montage and all. It help show that while Virgil might be a badass he's also changing with the player. Beautiful.
Wow, just got done with a DMC3 playthrough too. Fully Agree with the style meter being the main strength to the formula, but I moreso agree with it's impeccable subtlety in game design. From enemy color, distinct silhouettes to help understand which character is each; to even manhandling encounter with launchers juggles, trickers evasions, and fucking *TAUNTS*! Man I fucking love DMC *SO* much, and you made a wonderful video to showcase all of that. Have a great day, and keep up the good work! ;D
I might be 8 months late,but did you found the triple dash with the air dash in the end a use full mechanic to use.It gave me a great sense of mobility compared to just the roll and also made the game more easier in harder modes.Also would you want it back in dmc 5,cause I don't understand why the fan base doesn't want it implemented in dmc 4,it makes you a mix between vergil and dante with all the high speed movement
A lot of great stuff to unpack here. Your analysis of DMC3's enemies made me realize that the game is essentially similar to classic Doom in regards to its enemy design. Despite the small roster, at least when compared to something like Dark Souls, each of the DMC3 enemies are all unique and serve different purposes, just like the Imps, the Barons of Hell and the Cacodemons and the like of classic Doom. And unlike Dark Souls or even classic Doom, there is no overlap in function in the different enemies in DMC3. They are all unique chess pieces, whereas the Baron of Hell and the Hell Knight both serve the exact same function and are basically identical chess pieces in classic Doom (though less so in Doom 2016). I'm disappointed in myself to not have realized this, despite having spent hundreds of hours on DMC3. Your point about the intuitive and simple design of the style meter in DMC3 is mind-blowing. I never even thought about it that way. Yes, it's true that when I play DMC3, I'm always aware of precisely how well or poorly I'm playing. Meanwhile, in Bayonetta or a lot of other cuhrayzee games, I have to estimate what my final style ranking will be and how much the game likes or dislikes my minute-to-minute playstyle. Something you didn't mention that all genres (not just fellow cuhrayzee games) can also learn from DMC3 is how to do difficulty upgrades properly. This is something that so many modern games fail at, even masterpieces like Dark Souls (which just lazily increases enemy health and attack power in each New Game Plus cycle) or NieR: Automata (where Hard and Very Hard are both just lazily increasing enemy parameters and removing lock-on while also, in Very Hard's case, turning every hit into a cheap one-hit kill). Obviously, the first thing is that the changes in the checkpoint system from the archaic no-checkpoint system in vanilla DMC3 to the Divinity Statues becoming checkpoints in DMC3:SE is a massive improvement that made the game extremely more accessible without harming the difficulty. More importantly though is the meaningful changes you see in difficulty settings. Normal in DMC3 is **extremely** different from Dante Must Die difficulty. Compare the aggression of (say) the basic Lust enemies in Normal with the aggression of the Lusts in DMD. One only attacks you every 15-20 seconds and the other attacks you constantly, while also jumping around much more quickly. The Enigmas are similarly much more aggressive in DMD compared to their docile forms in Normal, not to mention the fact that they actually try to dodge your attacks in DMD and Very Hard but don't even move in Normal. Similarly, Vergil has his Summoned Swords in DMD but not in Normal or even Very Hard. Unfortunately, the one thing it still can't do better than its peers is release a goddamn PC port that actually works properly and doesn't need hours of tweaking and modding just to perform at acceptable levels. After trying and failing for hours to bind certain buttons to my numpad, I gave up trying to play DMC3:SE on my PC with my keyboard and just resorted to using my Xbox 360 controller. :(
The Style meter is exactly why the DMC games will always feel better than Bayonetta. It's why I didn't understand Bayonetta when I first started compared to DMC 3
I fell like The God Of War series would be much more explored, in terms of combat, if it had a style meter like DMC. Most players just stick to the old "square, square and triangle" even though the game offers a fuck load of others combos.
I think God of War doesn't need a Style meter, because those games doesn't want you to be Stylish they want you to be Brutal. In most of these games you need to play in a strategic way and you often will use some lesser enemies to harm big enemies is all about of destroy the big ones first. Yes, they offer you a lot of options in terms of combos but most of these doesn't do shit and they're there just to give you a "variety" of options. For me god of war ascension is the one who improves more the old combat system of this series, it offers you less options most of the time but instead he gives you more ways to deal with large crowds of enemies. He gives you the chance to stun bigger enemies and dealt a lot of damage in a short period and beat tougher enemies faster.
I agree with you at this point even though Bayonetta has a deep deep combo compared to DMC3 but like you said it doesn’t encourage you to make a variety of combos it only give you higher medal when you make a non-stop combo even if it’s the same move I saw someone when he was fighting Bayonetta replica in the lost chapter he did a variety of combo and no damage but he get a bronze medal for the combo because it wasn’t contiuous
Till this day, DMC3 or even DMC4 for that matter was still the most challenging action game of all time. Ppl always say that the Soul series was the most difficult in term of hack n' slash and I was like WHAT? I practiced DMC3 just so that I could SS rank DMC3 back in the day and it took me like YEARS just to SS rank all of the DMD mission. What the Soul series did was just to restrict you as realistic as possible with the Stamina and you had to play optimally just so that you can survive. Soul fans will give you argument like you can do self imposed challenge like no item or weak weapon or armor. However, those are not official. DMC series challenged or for the lack of better word TAUNTED you that you sucked if you play optimally. Each Mission gave you ranking of Time, Orbs, Style, Damage and Item used. You don't have to self imposed challenge speed run because the game directly challenge you. Got S rank for each category? Boom more Red Orbs mean you will progress faster or in case of DMC4, more style points = more Proud Souls for upgrade. If you SS ranking all of the mission in each difficulty will reward you will a compliment, clear bonus art and later on Trophies/Achievement. I will never forget the very first time I SS rank on Hard with Regular Dante (Not super costume) was that "That's how you separate from boy to man" alongside with a clear bonus art. They game docked your ranking heavily on taking damage or using item even once and those are the majority of your deduction from the ranking alongside with low style point. You also collect more Red Orbs if you kill enemies when your Style was at higher rank. This gave me more reason to get better because you will be like Vergil's "Now I'm MOTIVATED!!!" The game gave you all the tools you needed and all you had to do was to GIT GUD. The very first time I play Dark Souls 1, I was like "Huh? Is this the game that people struggling with? Really?" I was very surprised how gamers are getting more and more spoiled years later on. I played the Original Dante's Awakening where Normal was actually Hard for god's sake.
I remember pissing off my friend when he had me try Dark Souls. The first thing I said was that it felt like a slower, less mobile Devil May Cry with the combos ripped out. He got so butt hurt it was hilarious.
I'm kind of not a fan of DMC and Bayonetta punishing the player for using items, but to each his own. Those combat adjudicators was a pain in the ass though.
Potidaon if Street Fighter can make a comeback after 9 years since the latest revision of SFIII in arcades, 3rd Strike, (1999) to SFIV's arcade release (2008), I think DMC can comeback.
Devil may cry 3 ......I still can't believe , until this time its still is a KING of the action game out there , to be honest this game has a good personality , people who played this game will always remember every single character in the game , but we don't often heard people talk about Bayonetta , Metal gear rising , god of war......if we talk about action game , then "Devil may cry" will always be the first game on our mind.😊
What about dmc 4 dante then,from what I remember,you couldn't properly alternate between your sword and your gilgamesh with out double taping to skip lucifer,just like vergil which means it was pretty hard to pull of a rebellion and gilgamesh combo.So wasn't it hard for you to control dante in dmc4 after being used to his proper interchangeable switching in dmc 3 which is easier to manage.i think the dmc reboot had the best solution to this by just putting weapons on the dpad,which I think should be on dmc 5 If they wanna introduce proper more then 4 devil arms
Apsandman yes I know that,what I'm saying is that since in dmc 5 we will have more styles with a limitation of 4 on d pad,why not put dantes third weapon by double taping the dpad,it would still be weapon 1,2,3 cycle but 1,2 weapon are on the trigger only while the double d pad option allows you to instantly go to the third weapon with out any hassle.Capcom really fucked up dante in dmc 4 by making enemies and level design more suited to neros playstyle and basically slapping vergils weapon switching to dante with out any thought while we know that dante also switches between guns.
Apsandman I don't think any body would miss dantes second rate dark slayer in dmc 5 cause vergil will return and be the sole master of it.Now that I think about it I don't think capcom has the narrative or the game design talent to make dmc 5 that us fans want,cause I'm pretty sure they don't even know about dmc 3 style switcher mod and they implemented no way for us to use it in hd collection.If it was bathesa,we could just rant and they have added the support like in a week but capcom,well they made re6 and probably re8 would be first person too
I'll keep this in mind. There's been an IP I've been itching to create since I was about 13 years old that I can probably describe as being like a mash of Devil May Cry 3 with Ratchet & Clank 2... maybe with a few touches of early 3D Zelda and Sonic Adventure 1/2. Planning on college for game-design soon. Not sure if I'd be able to make a working prototype while I'm there, but it's been one of the things I've been most passionate about in my life. The style meter is definitely a must-have now. I didn't consider just how vital it really is until now, but I remember being much more focused on rising it in DMC3 than the previous titles. (Haven't played 4 or the reboot yet.) The way you described it definitely reminds me of the Glory Kill system in Doom (2016). While it raised a few eyebrows at first, it ended up being the perfect way to incentivize playing the game as viciously and aggressively as possible; throwing yourself into harms way for bonuses, rather than staying back and picking off enemies from a distance. There's more of a risk vs. reward system in place with ripping health units straight from a demon's chest, rather than just picking a medkit off the floor. It feels good. I may use something similar to both of these to make things even more crazy. Maybe I'll even throw in that individual enemy kill ranking system that was in those 6th gen console Lord of the Rings games (or maybe just one of 'em; it's been a while). You know, where the words "poor", "fair", "good", "excellent", and "perfect" pop up depending on how well you managed to slay an enemy? Or maybe that'd be too much clutter. Hmmm... It's been years since I've played those. Maybe I need a refresher on how that system worked. I'm ready to create a visceral eviscerating experience, and I'll take every lesson I can in making it shine through with style!
I may also have to put some more thought into the whole "rivalry" concept. I do try to avoid chichés, but perhaps this is something worthwhile to consider. Perhaps I'll be giving some more of this to the antagonist. He and the hero do have some parallels, though they do have very different builds, with the hero being a mage, while the villain is a scientist. I'll see what I can come up with.
I think it's kind of funny that I've been toying with an idea a lot like yours for several years now. Good luck with your endeavors. Hope I'll get to play your game one day.
i think another great thing in the game are the styles. they are so unique and distinct from one another and help you create so many different combos.... i love this game
Couldn't agree with you more about the style meter. I have not experimented with a beat-em-up's combat variety as much as DMC3 and it's a direct result of being given clear feedback as to how varied my combos are. The statues that only broke when you reach a certain grade helped to enforce the premise of the combo-style meter too. Arkham City had a robust comboing system which was satisfying as hell, it just didn't encourage me to think about it through it's design, it always felt like it was always about beating the segment of a level than it was about going nuts with variety. I only discovered that combos accrue points a certain way through the joker challenges.
I can (or at least was able to in my DMC prime) beat every DMC on hard and very hard, but God Hand? i had to put that on easy, I seriously couldn't even beat the first stage of Mission 2. But goddamn, was that fun. Even on easy.
You forgot other BIG flaw in DMC 4 Telling. Enemies in DMC 3 have VERY distingued tellings. For example. Lust will laugh before lunging at you. Sloth screams then teleport. The angel guy screams or chants before attacking you. Every enemy says "im going to attack you" and they attack you. Even the bosses do that, only that most are very subtle. DMC 4 absolutely fails at telling the players when the enemy is going to attack. It goes back to DMC 1 way of fighting you. By expecting you to just use your eyes. DMC expected you to use your eyes and your ears. DMC 4 also suffers from a problem with timing. most enemies have very unpredictable timing. Mostly because they don't give a good telling for when they are going to attack. This is something that happened in DMC 1. But if DMC 3 did it right why removing it? This leads to frustrating fights that are NOT fun. For example the plants that sprout and cut you off. How do you know they will burst into knives? You don't , they just do. Frosts do a passable job in the visual side. But they are hard to notice in the auditive side. The Mephistos and fausts are a little less annoying than their DMC 1 counterparts mostly because they have a better telling. But the pace of their attacks is really hard. Specially for Royal guard, because the timing is absolutely insane . It takes too long to memorize.
Vin D. Yea I'd love to see that be brought back as an alternative costume, but keep the DMC3/4 Rebellion over DMC2's as it just looks bigger and nastier - and by nastier, I mean like it'll do massive damage at how heavy it looks - compared to the original appearance. Thankfully at least it's not the toothpick that is DmC's Rebellion. Also for DMC2's gameplay, as bland and easy as it was, it still at least laid the groundwork for what would become the Style system, and introduced Bloody Palace, so besides the awesome Dante design it also has that going for it.
While not a character action game I can remember Sonic Adventure 2 had something of Style system which you could boost by chaining homing attacks and grinds together before touching the floor again, hitting big jumps on ramps and by seamlessly sliding through tight spaces without stopping. Also funnily enough, after a quick google search I see there was only a few months between SA2's release in June and DMC's in August (going by the Japanese release as it was first), plus they both share the same, only display the rating but no gauge. Coincidence?
+Bronze V true, but taunts have become almost universal in modern hack and slashes and I really wanted to focus on things that had yet to become standard
You missed out on mentioning taunts, acting as a reward for bringing up your style meter and functioning as a tool to increase it. Taunts also play into playing to be cool rather than playing for efficiency, because of the risk involved in doing them.
I think he's was specifically talking about parts of DMC3 that haven't been widely used by other games after it's release. Taunts are pretty common so it probably wasn't worth mentioning
Absolutely fantastic video. This really deserves more attention and traction. Your editing and writing quality deserve more than a few thousand views. I love this game, probably not as much as most people do, but I still love it. Yeah, the story is kinda basic and while the writing is campy and super entertaining, it does cross over into overly-cheesy sometimes. And yeah, characters makes pretty sudden shifts in attitude and personality at some points, but almost everything DMC3 does right, it does flawlessly. The action, both in gameplay and in cutscenes is beautifully animated, expertly choreographed, and just a fucking blast. The music is an absolute joy and I even listen to some of the soundtrack because the music is just that good. The style, the cinematography, the design, the atmosphere... everything is just so amazing. One of the best PS2 games and one of the best action games of all time in my book.
Ever since I played DMC3, it has become my benchmark for every Action Game I see...well...every Action Beat Em Up combo....whatever this type of game is called.
This is a great video. You couldn't be any more right about the Style Meter, and what is subconsciously encourages the player to do. That is indeed something that makes the DMC series so special.
Thanks for this. All your videos are excellent! I would like to add one more thing that DMC3 does so much better than most other games in the genre: Enemy sound design. Every enemy has a very distinct and noticeable sound that they make a set amount of time before attacking. This means that you can always tell when an attack is going to land on you, and what enemy type is attacking, by sound alone. When playing with Royal Guard style, I will often just forgo trying to look at attacks when determining the parry timing. I just listen for the sound and press the appropriate amount of time after I hear. I consider this to be of extreme importance in these really hectic fighting games where it can often be hard to keep track of everything happening, and it can make the game fair, even if attacks are coming from weird angles or from almost out of camera shot. DMC4 is a big offender for not having proper enemy sound design. Enemies make a noise when they attack, but most are kind of small noises that are hard to make out from other sound effects, and most are low growls that, to me, all sound basically the same. The one attack that always stood out to me as excellently designed was the Mephisto finger attack: A bright light indicating the point of origin, and a sharp high sound that is always noticeable and always reaches it's peak at the same timing relative to the attack hitting. Unfortunately, almost all the others suffer from the audio version of the poor communication that you already pointed out with the scarecrows.
Caer very good points all around. It’s also worth noting that the average human reaction to audio is slightly faster than the reaction to visual stimuli, which makes this point all the more worth remembering. That’s one area where I feel Platinum has done a great job with almost universally. Even if their visual design may falter from time to time, their audio quirks are always fantastic imo. Here’s hoping DMC 5 will pick up that lesson from them.
Awesome video. I agree with everything you said, and about the Style meter, you have a good point. However I still think there is some confusion there. Like, you can get S Ranks all throughout a mission in DMC3 and still have a final score of A or B. Whereas in Platinum games, you are ranked on the spot, at the end of every battle.
I do think Platinum has a better overall ranking system, but I was talking specifically about the style meter and how that affects gameplay in the moment. The overall style ranking system is what encourages you to improve. The style system is what encourages you to vary your attacks and prevents players from mindlessly spamming. This is where I feel Platinum's design breaks down in comparison, cause they're style meter is vague in what it wants, where as DMC's is very clear.
I absolutely agree. And I think there's a chance that DMC 5 doesn't have the mission-based structure because apparently, it's more open/Metroid-like(take this with a pinch of salt, though). So as a result, maybe it'll have the best of both worlds. So you'll have the Style Meter, but also get ranked at the end of every battle. That'd be awesome... But, yeah, we don't know how DMC 5 is structured yet so this is just my speculation.
A problem I have with Bayonetta is that the games have way too many combos and in the end of the day I only end up using a fraction of them. I barely have any idea of how well I'm doing in fights, sadly.
Exactly! I'm not that deep into Bayonetta but I do have a few platinum around the levels and what confuses me so much is the optimal way to deal with enemies while having the best scores possible. I still love the franchise and can't wait for the 3rd game. Also, really love your work. Keep it up!
WCamicase Gaming biggest piece of advice I have is don’t forget to use the guns to keep combos going and angel weapons are always a good call. And thank you, will do!
game theory level quality is literally an insult to a video where you can actually feel the person is passionate about the game he's talking about and not making just empty claims of being "the biggest fan" of *insert game of the video here* This guy never claims he knows dmc3 more than most, he simply shows it by passionately and solidly talking about why he likes it
Just discovered your channel last night and I must say, you make some damn fine content, and almost exclusively on games I adore, keep up the work my good man!
Talking about the Style Meter a bit more, something else about it that I think is genius is how it ties in thematically. Dante is a cocky teenager who clearly prides himself on being a badass, so it makes sense that he would be constantly trying to look as cool as possible and striving to vary up his fighting. It adds to his character and reinforces what we know about his personality in a unique way through gameplay that helps get the player into Dante's mindset. This means that even if other games were to fully implement the style system I don't think it would still be quite as good on a thematic level as Dante. Bayonetta is probably the only other game in the genre that I think a style meter could fit with (though I would rename it slightly to fit Bayo's fighting style better).
This is a very good point, and I do agree with it to a large degree, but I disagree on that no other game could make use of it without having a cocky, show off character. The thing is, you could take the basic idea of the style meter and implement it into a lot of games and still have it be effective. The catch is you have to change what it values. MGR is a good example of this. That game doesn't care if you vary your moves. What it cares about it you not taking damage, dishing out a lot of hits, and that you do the thing FAST. This results in it encouraging a very aggressive, yet efficient playstyle, kind of like you're supposed to be playing a cyborg ninja. Now lets imagine a game where you played, like, a samurai or something, some kind of incredibly patient and precise warrior. You could make a style system where the bar drains really slowly and getting, like, frame perfect blocks/parries massively bump it up. With that, you could use the style system to encourage patient play while still keeping the pressure on to be engaged in combat. I think you get my point. I think there are relatively few action games that wouldn't benefit from using this mechanic, even if you had to drastically change it from how it functions in DMC.
Yeah, I guess I was thinking about the specific implementation that DMC3/4 use of the style meter. Different variations of it for different games and characters as you describe would honestly be amazing. Many games would benefit from even the current incarnation of the system purely from a gameplay perspective IMO but it has great scope for experimentation and adaption. I think in some cases just renaming the rankings would be enough for it to fit as well, this would work for Bayonetta or even the other protagonists in the DMC games quite well I think.
I think it makes sense thematically that the Scarecrows in DMC4 all act the same. They're a hive of mostly unintelligent demon insects working together to animate burlap bodies. They're purely instinctive creatures. Granted it's less interesting, but it may not be an oversight. Just a thought.
im still pissed that they took out the triple dash from the trickster style in dmc 4,and the worst thing is that the fan base either doesnt know or doesnt even care,like whats the point of trickster any more if you cant immediately put in a safe distance from a bad situation,not to mention how cool it was do it along with the air dash in the end.Sometimes you dont wanna roll all the time and have a proper awesome looking dodge mechanic which trust me gives you a great feel of mobility which makes the game even more fun to play as you keep zipping across enemy attacks like its a cutscene,and its a good friendly style to have if you are new to the game or come back to it after some time
Only the first dash in triple dash has invuln sadly. DMC4 lets you guard cancel dash recovery so you can chain them together on your own, or you can pop DT to chain them easily indefinitely.
Apsandman I'm sick of these mother fucking cancels plaguing dmc 4 so I can enjoy that game like I do with dmc 3 constantly,hey like lucifer is the best weapon of dante yet to me and it's cancels give satisfying results but why did they nerf dantes styles and moves so much,but dt having an infinite dash system was yeah the next step on to how dt should work like
They had to nerf Dante because his styles are OP on their own in DMC3. You could easily get just guard and just release by abusing i-frames from jump and roll. Ultimate Tempest was broke as fuck, hammer spam was broke as fuck.
Considering you bring all of his Styles at once, I think the developers had to nerfed Dante in one way or the other, i.e. reducing his consecutive dashes and weakening his guns power for example. Beside, you can "infinitely" do multi dashes while in devil trigger.
DMC3, still my favor action game of all time! The game play, the character design, the story, the pacing, the sensation, the tension, the execution, are still unmatched till today!
Great video! Glad to know I'm not alone in how much more effective the style meter is in DMC over other character action games and I agree with your assessment that it goes a long way for these type of games. I think the only problem I've had with the DMC series is how limited they make you feel from the onset when starting a new game from scratch. It always felt like there was a disconnect between the opening cutscene where Dante is doing all these crazy things and tanking all these hits and then when you actually started playing you had this smaller moveset. I can understand that Dante would have to spend time learning new moves with new weapons that he just got but he should know everything regarding Rebellion since he's had it for longer. Whereas with Bayonetta I can immediately jump in and have a much larger moveset and immediately start doing everything she was doing in the cutscenes. But to be fair on the flip side Bayonetta's combos lack I think a lot of the variety visually of DMC's which have a much more clear rhythm. I'm just afraid of if/when we get DMC 5 that I'm gonna start up a new game and still have to purchase Stinger, Dance Macabre, etc.
Man I sure love DMC3. I will never claim to be good at these games, but I still really enjoy them. It's too bad the PC port on steam is hot garbage or I would play though it again :( Great video as always!!!
Well, luckily serpentiem's Style Switcher mod fixes many of the PC version's issues. I know not everyone wants to go through the hassle of installing mods, but I still think it's an option worth mentioning.
TimtheEnchanter That's understandable, but Devil May Cry, Nier Automata, and other games of this caliber play VERY different from beat-em-ups such as, say, Streets of Rage.
Lady Maria from Bloodborne takes a lot of cues from the Vergil battles(especially the first battle in mission 7) and it's sad no one mentions this. Take a look closer on how she moves and how Vergil moves.
I would argue Bayonetta provides more information as to what you do. The problem is it isn't in text. So basically you have to look up a guide to translate. If they just replaced it with text, it would be quite mathematical. But I can see how that would be a problem as well, you're just minmaxing the system now which discourages creative play.
Man, I don't think I've seen anyone on youtube breakdown DMC3 or the DMC series as a whole in the way you have. So, where would you place the XBOX NINJA GAIDEN BLACK and NINJA GAIDEN II games in your pantheon of action games?? I'd reay like to see a vid from you dissecting these two games (and even the inferior PS3 versions and shitty third entry).
Actually beat em up sounds perfectly fine, they are extensively the same kind of game as Double Dragon and Streets of Rage, just with additional elements so as to not make the game too monotonous.
yeah, but it didn't care if you varied your moves as there were no moves to vary and take a long time to drop to 0. That combo meter was way more about not getting hit than about being fast and stylish.
yeah i know im just sayn it was there. also i dont remember if you mentioned a more practical approach to dmc3`s style meter which also increase your damage and orbs collected. so its kinda smart way to force players to be stylish in order to be most effective. in DMD if your not max style... shit gets reeeealy hard.
My only complaint is why is their still no true remaster for DMC3! I got duped into buying the 'HD' Collection for PS4 after i already own it for PS3 just to find out it's basically only a port. It's so annoying...
"or your uncle"
That's hilarious for some reason
Yes it is😂😂
And now he's truly the "uncle" lmao
12:05
Another thing about Vergil's battles I wish you'd mentioned is that it has the perfect display of how you improve, both as a player and a character. In the first battle, Dante gets his shit kicked in, like you do as a player. But after getting his DT, his second battle with his bro ends with a draw, culminating with the finale where Dante takes him out for good. It all just clicks so well.
While you've more or less completely outlined the reasons why Vergil as a character was a narrative success in Devil May Cry 3, I feel like the gameplay progression of his boss fights is also important to the lasting impression he's made.
The first time you fight him, you don't have Devil Trigger, your Style is maybe Level 2 if you've been focusing on one at a time, and you've reached competency in the use of whatever you've chosen as your bread and butter from the three Devil Arms you've unlocked at that point. Vergil similarly chooses not to use Devil Trigger and relies on some relatively simple but dangerous moves with Yamato alone and maybe some Summoned Swords. He's also kinda passive-aggressive in this state, liable to stand around and posture for a bit, like he's lording his superiority over you, and not terribly keen on pursuing you beyond cancelling into a rising cut if you jump over his combo like a shmuck.
The second time you face him, you probably have at least one style maxed, are even more skilled, have access to pretty much every weapon in the game aside from Beowulf and Kalina Ann, and possess Devil Trigger. Here, Vergil has a new weapon of his own, freely uses Devil Trigger, is much more likely to employ Summoned Swords if you're on higher difficulties, and delivers his attacks in a more complicated and dangerous pattern. He's more aggressive then as well, attacking more explosively and for longer periods of time before taking a shorter breather in between clashes. It's a fairly no-nonsense fight compared to the previous, though not exactly high stakes.
By the time you reach the third fight with Vergil, you've unquestionably attained at least a low form of mastery and have every option in the game at your disposal. Vergil himself only has one moveset now (one-and-a-half on higher difficulties where he makes use of Yamato as well as Fore Edge), which echoes that of your first Devil Arm Rebellion in a manner I find almost nostalgic, like things are coming full circle. As predictable as this makes a fair number of his moves (which itself might be a nod to Dante having grown to surpass him since the first confrontation), he is absolutely, viciously, unrelentingly aggro in this form, like he's either furious or desperate at the fact that Dante still stands in his way.
In all the character action games I've played since, I've never come across anything that feels quite like it. The second fight against Jetstream Sam is more like Round 2 of the same duel, both fights against Dante in Devil May Cry 4 are just him trolling Nero, and the Adam, Eve, and A2 fights of NieR: Automata all have a vastly different context and dynamic.
damn. this is a good book
Speaking on the point of Virgil, one thing that sticks with me is when Virgil encounters Beowulf. The player is scaling the tower, getting better both skill and Arsonal wise, but before the second Virgil fight you see what happens when one of the towers bosses encounters him. Not only does Virgil simply annihilate Beowulf, he himself acquires a weapon in the same manner as that player, Combo montage and all. It help show that while Virgil might be a badass he's also changing with the player. Beautiful.
Wow, just got done with a DMC3 playthrough too. Fully Agree with the style meter being the main strength to the formula, but I moreso agree with it's impeccable subtlety in game design. From enemy color, distinct silhouettes to help understand which character is each; to even manhandling encounter with launchers juggles, trickers evasions, and fucking *TAUNTS*! Man I fucking love DMC *SO* much, and you made a wonderful video to showcase all of that.
Have a great day, and keep up the good work! ;D
I might be 8 months late,but did you found the triple dash with the air dash in the end a use full mechanic to use.It gave me a great sense of mobility compared to just the roll and also made the game more easier in harder modes.Also would you want it back in dmc 5,cause I don't understand why the fan base doesn't want it implemented in dmc 4,it makes you a mix between vergil and dante with all the high speed movement
Huge DMC fan obviously. You hit the nail on the head for all the right reasons. Good shit.
A lot of great stuff to unpack here. Your analysis of DMC3's enemies made me realize that the game is essentially similar to classic Doom in regards to its enemy design. Despite the small roster, at least when compared to something like Dark Souls, each of the DMC3 enemies are all unique and serve different purposes, just like the Imps, the Barons of Hell and the Cacodemons and the like of classic Doom. And unlike Dark Souls or even classic Doom, there is no overlap in function in the different enemies in DMC3. They are all unique chess pieces, whereas the Baron of Hell and the Hell Knight both serve the exact same function and are basically identical chess pieces in classic Doom (though less so in Doom 2016). I'm disappointed in myself to not have realized this, despite having spent hundreds of hours on DMC3.
Your point about the intuitive and simple design of the style meter in DMC3 is mind-blowing. I never even thought about it that way. Yes, it's true that when I play DMC3, I'm always aware of precisely how well or poorly I'm playing. Meanwhile, in Bayonetta or a lot of other cuhrayzee games, I have to estimate what my final style ranking will be and how much the game likes or dislikes my minute-to-minute playstyle.
Something you didn't mention that all genres (not just fellow cuhrayzee games) can also learn from DMC3 is how to do difficulty upgrades properly. This is something that so many modern games fail at, even masterpieces like Dark Souls (which just lazily increases enemy health and attack power in each New Game Plus cycle) or NieR: Automata (where Hard and Very Hard are both just lazily increasing enemy parameters and removing lock-on while also, in Very Hard's case, turning every hit into a cheap one-hit kill).
Obviously, the first thing is that the changes in the checkpoint system from the archaic no-checkpoint system in vanilla DMC3 to the Divinity Statues becoming checkpoints in DMC3:SE is a massive improvement that made the game extremely more accessible without harming the difficulty.
More importantly though is the meaningful changes you see in difficulty settings. Normal in DMC3 is **extremely** different from Dante Must Die difficulty. Compare the aggression of (say) the basic Lust enemies in Normal with the aggression of the Lusts in DMD. One only attacks you every 15-20 seconds and the other attacks you constantly, while also jumping around much more quickly. The Enigmas are similarly much more aggressive in DMD compared to their docile forms in Normal, not to mention the fact that they actually try to dodge your attacks in DMD and Very Hard but don't even move in Normal. Similarly, Vergil has his Summoned Swords in DMD but not in Normal or even Very Hard.
Unfortunately, the one thing it still can't do better than its peers is release a goddamn PC port that actually works properly and doesn't need hours of tweaking and modding just to perform at acceptable levels. After trying and failing for hours to bind certain buttons to my numpad, I gave up trying to play DMC3:SE on my PC with my keyboard and just resorted to using my Xbox 360 controller. :(
brightsuperstition I Hope So
Also lust looks and moves like dante
The Style meter is exactly why the DMC games will always feel better than Bayonetta. It's why I didn't understand Bayonetta when I first started compared to DMC 3
Also I always ended up using the same combos for both Bayonetta 1&2 whereas Devil May Cry rewards you much more for experimenting and using new combos
What you said about the style meter is too true. There are so many games that offer deep combat but don't encourage the player to explore the depth.
I fell like The God Of War series would be much more explored, in terms of combat, if it had a style meter like DMC. Most players just stick to the old "square, square and triangle" even though the game offers a fuck load of others combos.
I think God of War doesn't need a Style meter, because those games doesn't want you to be Stylish they want you to be Brutal. In most of these games you need to play in a strategic way and you often will use some lesser enemies to harm big enemies is all about of destroy the big ones first. Yes, they offer you a lot of options in terms of combos but most of these doesn't do shit and they're there just to give you a "variety" of options.
For me god of war ascension is the one who improves more the old combat system of this series, it offers you less options most of the time but instead he gives you more ways to deal with large crowds of enemies. He gives you the chance to stun bigger enemies and dealt a lot of damage in a short period and beat tougher enemies faster.
I agree with you at this point even though Bayonetta has a deep deep combo compared to DMC3 but like you said it doesn’t encourage you to make a variety of combos it only give you higher medal when you make a non-stop combo even if it’s the same move
I saw someone when he was fighting Bayonetta replica in the lost chapter he did a variety of combo and no damage but he get a bronze medal for the combo because it wasn’t contiuous
Ahem.. Nier Automata :/.. Does horribly with this.
Also the robots are weak
Till this day, DMC3 or even DMC4 for that matter was still the most challenging action game of all time. Ppl always say that the Soul series was the most difficult in term of hack n' slash and I was like WHAT? I practiced DMC3 just so that I could SS rank DMC3 back in the day and it took me like YEARS just to SS rank all of the DMD mission. What the Soul series did was just to restrict you as realistic as possible with the Stamina and you had to play optimally just so that you can survive. Soul fans will give you argument like you can do self imposed challenge like no item or weak weapon or armor. However, those are not official. DMC series challenged or for the lack of better word TAUNTED you that you sucked if you play optimally. Each Mission gave you ranking of Time, Orbs, Style, Damage and Item used. You don't have to self imposed challenge speed run because the game directly challenge you. Got S rank for each category? Boom more Red Orbs mean you will progress faster or in case of DMC4, more style points = more Proud Souls for upgrade. If you SS ranking all of the mission in each difficulty will reward you will a compliment, clear bonus art and later on Trophies/Achievement. I will never forget the very first time I SS rank on Hard with Regular Dante (Not super costume) was that "That's how you separate from boy to man" alongside with a clear bonus art. They game docked your ranking heavily on taking damage or using item even once and those are the majority of your deduction from the ranking alongside with low style point. You also collect more Red Orbs if you kill enemies when your Style was at higher rank. This gave me more reason to get better because you will be like Vergil's "Now I'm MOTIVATED!!!" The game gave you all the tools you needed and all you had to do was to GIT GUD. The very first time I play Dark Souls 1, I was like "Huh? Is this the game that people struggling with? Really?" I was very surprised how gamers are getting more and more spoiled years later on. I played the Original Dante's Awakening where Normal was actually Hard for god's sake.
I remember pissing off my friend when he had me try Dark Souls. The first thing I said was that it felt like a slower, less mobile Devil May Cry with the combos ripped out. He got so butt hurt it was hilarious.
I'm kind of not a fan of DMC and Bayonetta punishing the player for using items, but to each his own. Those combat adjudicators was a pain in the ass though.
@@MasterLee2011 I don't think it's a punishment for using items
it's just that you should be rewarded for not needing any in the first place
Why don't we call them style em ups?
that's actually a really good name.
Interesting name, but people already argue that stylish action game doesn't make sense. Good name though.
Spectacle fighter
I still like Stylish Action, which is fairly close.
You are terribly underrated.
fuck, seeing this and Dante in MvC makes me want a DMC5 more than ever, it's been like 8 years
Potidaon if Street Fighter can make a comeback after 9 years since the latest revision of SFIII in arcades, 3rd Strike, (1999) to SFIV's arcade release (2008), I think DMC can comeback.
Grey Ninja Devil May Cry 5 is on the way. Look forward to it.
E3 2018 for Dante to comeback
Devil may cry 3 ......I still can't believe , until this time its still is a KING of the action game out there , to be honest this game has a good personality , people who played this game will always remember every single character in the game , but we don't often heard people talk about Bayonetta , Metal gear rising , god of war......if we talk about action game , then "Devil may cry" will always be the first game on our mind.😊
What about dmc 4 dante then,from what I remember,you couldn't properly alternate between your sword and your gilgamesh with out double taping to skip lucifer,just like vergil which means it was pretty hard to pull of a rebellion and gilgamesh combo.So wasn't it hard for you to control dante in dmc4 after being used to his proper interchangeable switching in dmc 3 which is easier to manage.i think the dmc reboot had the best solution to this by just putting weapons on the dpad,which I think should be on dmc 5 If they wanna introduce proper more then 4 devil arms
Vergil doesn't need to double tap to switch weapons, he had a wheel that could go either way.
Apsandman yes I know that,what I'm saying is that since in dmc 5 we will have more styles with a limitation of 4 on d pad,why not put dantes third weapon by double taping the dpad,it would still be weapon 1,2,3 cycle but 1,2 weapon are on the trigger only while the double d pad option allows you to instantly go to the third weapon with out any hassle.Capcom really fucked up dante in dmc 4 by making enemies and level design more suited to neros playstyle and basically slapping vergils weapon switching to dante with out any thought while we know that dante also switches between guns.
Double tap style switch gives you the 5th option though.
Apsandman I don't think any body would miss dantes second rate dark slayer in dmc 5 cause vergil will return and be the sole master of it.Now that I think about it I don't think capcom has the narrative or the game design talent to make dmc 5 that us fans want,cause I'm pretty sure they don't even know about dmc 3 style switcher mod and they implemented no way for us to use it in hd collection.If it was bathesa,we could just rant and they have added the support like in a week but capcom,well they made re6 and probably re8 would be first person too
I'll keep this in mind.
There's been an IP I've been itching to create since I was about 13 years old that I can probably describe as being like a mash of Devil May Cry 3 with Ratchet & Clank 2... maybe with a few touches of early 3D Zelda and Sonic Adventure 1/2. Planning on college for game-design soon. Not sure if I'd be able to make a working prototype while I'm there, but it's been one of the things I've been most passionate about in my life.
The style meter is definitely a must-have now. I didn't consider just how vital it really is until now, but I remember being much more focused on rising it in DMC3 than the previous titles. (Haven't played 4 or the reboot yet.) The way you described it definitely reminds me of the Glory Kill system in Doom (2016). While it raised a few eyebrows at first, it ended up being the perfect way to incentivize playing the game as viciously and aggressively as possible; throwing yourself into harms way for bonuses, rather than staying back and picking off enemies from a distance. There's more of a risk vs. reward system in place with ripping health units straight from a demon's chest, rather than just picking a medkit off the floor. It feels good. I may use something similar to both of these to make things even more crazy. Maybe I'll even throw in that individual enemy kill ranking system that was in those 6th gen console Lord of the Rings games (or maybe just one of 'em; it's been a while). You know, where the words "poor", "fair", "good", "excellent", and "perfect" pop up depending on how well you managed to slay an enemy? Or maybe that'd be too much clutter. Hmmm... It's been years since I've played those. Maybe I need a refresher on how that system worked.
I'm ready to create a visceral eviscerating experience, and I'll take every lesson I can in making it shine through with style!
I may also have to put some more thought into the whole "rivalry" concept. I do try to avoid chichés, but perhaps this is something worthwhile to consider. Perhaps I'll be giving some more of this to the antagonist. He and the hero do have some parallels, though they do have very different builds, with the hero being a mage, while the villain is a scientist. I'll see what I can come up with.
I think it's kind of funny that I've been toying with an idea a lot like yours for several years now. Good luck with your endeavors. Hope I'll get to play your game one day.
God, i miss the old DMC
mateus oliveira Devil May Cry 5 is on the way. Look forward to Nero and Dante's return.
Golden times when capcom make masterpieces
i think another great thing in the game are the styles. they are so unique and distinct from one another and help you create so many different combos.... i love this game
Couldn't agree with you more about the style meter. I have not experimented with a beat-em-up's combat variety as much as DMC3 and it's a direct result of being given clear feedback as to how varied my combos are. The statues that only broke when you reach a certain grade helped to enforce the premise of the combo-style meter too. Arkham City had a robust comboing system which was satisfying as hell, it just didn't encourage me to think about it through it's design, it always felt like it was always about beating the segment of a level than it was about going nuts with variety. I only discovered that combos accrue points a certain way through the joker challenges.
God Hand is, if not *the* (It changes depending on my mood), definitely one of my favorite games of all time.
I can (or at least was able to in my DMC prime) beat every DMC on hard and very hard, but God Hand? i had to put that on easy, I seriously couldn't even beat the first stage of Mission 2. But goddamn, was that fun. Even on easy.
Sperium3000 Kingdom Hearts II takes that title in my opinion
Doing a kick me sign run of God Hand might be the most masochistic thing I've ever done in a game.
You forgot other BIG flaw in DMC 4
Telling.
Enemies in DMC 3 have VERY distingued tellings. For example. Lust will laugh before lunging at you. Sloth screams then teleport. The angel guy screams or chants before attacking you. Every enemy says "im going to attack you" and they attack you. Even the bosses do that, only that most are very subtle.
DMC 4 absolutely fails at telling the players when the enemy is going to attack. It goes back to DMC 1 way of fighting you. By expecting you to just use your eyes.
DMC expected you to use your eyes and your ears.
DMC 4 also suffers from a problem with timing. most enemies have very unpredictable timing. Mostly because they don't give a good telling for when they are going to attack. This is something that happened in DMC 1. But if DMC 3 did it right why removing it?
This leads to frustrating fights that are NOT fun.
For example the plants that sprout and cut you off. How do you know they will burst into knives? You don't , they just do. Frosts do a passable job in the visual side. But they are hard to notice in the auditive side. The Mephistos and fausts are a little less annoying than their DMC 1 counterparts mostly because they have a better telling. But the pace of their attacks is really hard. Specially for Royal guard, because the timing is absolutely insane . It takes too long to memorize.
Somecooltoad Fucking Shadows.
It's pretty funny that Kamiya created the three games, but DMC truly shines when Itsuno handled it.
Itsuno was a gift to the genre.
DMCV finally got the enemy roster right again. Each one is distinct and (for the most part) enjoyable to fight
DMC 5 pretty much perfected DMC 3'S formula
Gameplay-wise, probably. Storywise, nope.
@@mastervidxad5883 5's story is way better than people give credit for.
@@supersbbrawl4ever yeah, 5's story did a good job nullifying the impact of past games.
@@mastervidxad5883 Nah, I disagree. But please elaborate anyways.
As for the gameplay, I'd say not entirely. 3 imo has a bunch of unique advantages combat-wise. Only thing 5 has is variety.
do a "what we can learn from" with all devil may cry games, i want to know your opinions of dmc 2
I may actually do that at some point. On the downside, that would mean having to replay DMC2. Definately going to be more DMC vids in the future tho
+Codex Entry i'll be waiting for it
Vin D. Yea I'd love to see that be brought back as an alternative costume, but keep the DMC3/4 Rebellion over DMC2's as it just looks bigger and nastier - and by nastier, I mean like it'll do massive damage at how heavy it looks - compared to the original appearance. Thankfully at least it's not the toothpick that is DmC's Rebellion. Also for DMC2's gameplay, as bland and easy as it was, it still at least laid the groundwork for what would become the Style system, and introduced Bloody Palace, so besides the awesome Dante design it also has that going for it.
I see you have exquisite taste in music. Animals As Leaders are a perfect match for this video.
While not a character action game I can remember Sonic Adventure 2 had something of Style system which you could boost by chaining homing attacks and grinds together before touching the floor again, hitting big jumps on ramps and by seamlessly sliding through tight spaces without stopping. Also funnily enough, after a quick google search I see there was only a few months between SA2's release in June and DMC's in August (going by the Japanese release as it was first), plus they both share the same, only display the rating but no gauge. Coincidence?
Theme is very important in game design, a lot of game designers overlook the importance of theme.
Ho could you not mention taunts, They make the player feel cheeky (yet awesome) as all hell every time you manage to pull one off.
+Bronze V true, but taunts have become almost universal in modern hack and slashes and I really wanted to focus on things that had yet to become standard
First video I've seen from your channel and I must say that you deserve more subs.
You missed out on mentioning taunts, acting as a reward for bringing up your style meter and functioning as a tool to increase it. Taunts also play into playing to be cool rather than playing for efficiency, because of the risk involved in doing them.
Chief It also serves as a good strategy for helping fill up your devil trigger
Goddamn DMC is awesome
I think he's was specifically talking about parts of DMC3 that haven't been widely used by other games after it's release. Taunts are pretty common so it probably wasn't worth mentioning
no doubt about it, Devil May Cry 3 is literally, the Resident Evil 4 of that franchise.
Can't help but keep loving this game, probably for many years to come and more
DMC is the gem of its era of hack & slash
6:11
The revolutionary mechanic
You have very good musical taste, sir, that AAL song is quite a masterpiece :D
Absolutely fantastic video. This really deserves more attention and traction. Your editing and writing quality deserve more than a few thousand views.
I love this game, probably not as much as most people do, but I still love it. Yeah, the story is kinda basic and while the writing is campy and super entertaining, it does cross over into overly-cheesy sometimes. And yeah, characters makes pretty sudden shifts in attitude and personality at some points, but almost everything DMC3 does right, it does flawlessly. The action, both in gameplay and in cutscenes is beautifully animated, expertly choreographed, and just a fucking blast. The music is an absolute joy and I even listen to some of the soundtrack because the music is just that good. The style, the cinematography, the design, the atmosphere... everything is just so amazing. One of the best PS2 games and one of the best action games of all time in my book.
Forget the video itself, 1:30 in - Animals As Leaders starts playing. Good fucking music taste man. I can see you're a man of culture as well.
This game is the game that made me love games. I have played many games but i always go back to playing this game until my pc broke.
Best game for me!
Ever since I played DMC3, it has become my benchmark for every Action Game I see...well...every Action Beat Em Up combo....whatever this type of game is called.
This is a great video. You couldn't be any more right about the Style Meter, and what is subconsciously encourages the player to do. That is indeed something that makes the DMC series so special.
@1:28 Animals as leaders? Hell yeah dude!
Great video. Concise writing with strong, clear points. Also really dig the Blu and Exile Dancin in the Rain use. Truly a man of taste.
Thanks for this. All your videos are excellent!
I would like to add one more thing that DMC3 does so much better than most other games in the genre: Enemy sound design.
Every enemy has a very distinct and noticeable sound that they make a set amount of time before attacking. This means that you can always tell when an attack is going to land on you, and what enemy type is attacking, by sound alone. When playing with Royal Guard style, I will often just forgo trying to look at attacks when determining the parry timing. I just listen for the sound and press the appropriate amount of time after I hear.
I consider this to be of extreme importance in these really hectic fighting games where it can often be hard to keep track of everything happening, and it can make the game fair, even if attacks are coming from weird angles or from almost out of camera shot.
DMC4 is a big offender for not having proper enemy sound design. Enemies make a noise when they attack, but most are kind of small noises that are hard to make out from other sound effects, and most are low growls that, to me, all sound basically the same. The one attack that always stood out to me as excellently designed was the Mephisto finger attack: A bright light indicating the point of origin, and a sharp high sound that is always noticeable and always reaches it's peak at the same timing relative to the attack hitting.
Unfortunately, almost all the others suffer from the audio version of the poor communication that you already pointed out with the scarecrows.
Caer very good points all around. It’s also worth noting that the average human reaction to audio is slightly faster than the reaction to visual stimuli, which makes this point all the more worth remembering. That’s one area where I feel Platinum has done a great job with almost universally. Even if their visual design may falter from time to time, their audio quirks are always fantastic imo. Here’s hoping DMC 5 will pick up that lesson from them.
As soon as I heard animals as leaders while you were talking about dmc3, one of my all time favorites, I subbed.
AND kavinsky? You have great music taste sir.
Awesome video. I agree with everything you said, and about the Style meter, you have a good point. However I still think there is some confusion there. Like, you can get S Ranks all throughout a mission in DMC3 and still have a final score of A or B. Whereas in Platinum games, you are ranked on the spot, at the end of every battle.
I do think Platinum has a better overall ranking system, but I was talking specifically about the style meter and how that affects gameplay in the moment. The overall style ranking system is what encourages you to improve. The style system is what encourages you to vary your attacks and prevents players from mindlessly spamming. This is where I feel Platinum's design breaks down in comparison, cause they're style meter is vague in what it wants, where as DMC's is very clear.
I absolutely agree. And I think there's a chance that DMC 5 doesn't have the mission-based structure because apparently, it's more open/Metroid-like(take this with a pinch of salt, though). So as a result, maybe it'll have the best of both worlds. So you'll have the Style Meter, but also get ranked at the end of every battle. That'd be awesome... But, yeah, we don't know how DMC 5 is structured yet so this is just my speculation.
A problem I have with Bayonetta is that the games have way too many combos and in the end of the day I only end up using a fraction of them.
I barely have any idea of how well I'm doing in fights, sadly.
Man, I’m approaching pure platinum on normal in bayo1 but even I still feel this way. PKP is too good to not use
Exactly!
I'm not that deep into Bayonetta but I do have a few platinum around the levels and what confuses me so much is the optimal way to deal with enemies while having the best scores possible.
I still love the franchise and can't wait for the 3rd game.
Also, really love your work. Keep it up!
WCamicase Gaming biggest piece of advice I have is don’t forget to use the guns to keep combos going and angel weapons are always a good call.
And thank you, will do!
You earned yourself another subscriber.
Holy shit. Liked for the Animals as Leaders song. Great choice
Holy moly that Below the Heavens track throws me back lmao nice music choice
That analysis was incredible. This is Game Theory level quality, maybe better.
ImmortaINub I feel the same
game theory level quality is literally an insult to a video where you can actually feel the person is passionate about the game he's talking about and not making just empty claims of being "the biggest fan" of *insert game of the video here*
This guy never claims he knows dmc3 more than most, he simply shows it by passionately and solidly talking about why he likes it
*N O T H A R D*
Just discovered your channel last night and I must say, you make some damn fine content, and almost exclusively on games I adore, keep up the work my good man!
Nice to hear Kavinsky in the backround
DMC3 remains one of my all time favorite games. I just discovered your channel. Your videos are fantastic, keep up the great work :D!
Talking about the Style Meter a bit more, something else about it that I think is genius is how it ties in thematically. Dante is a cocky teenager who clearly prides himself on being a badass, so it makes sense that he would be constantly trying to look as cool as possible and striving to vary up his fighting. It adds to his character and reinforces what we know about his personality in a unique way through gameplay that helps get the player into Dante's mindset.
This means that even if other games were to fully implement the style system I don't think it would still be quite as good on a thematic level as Dante. Bayonetta is probably the only other game in the genre that I think a style meter could fit with (though I would rename it slightly to fit Bayo's fighting style better).
This is a very good point, and I do agree with it to a large degree, but I disagree on that no other game could make use of it without having a cocky, show off character. The thing is, you could take the basic idea of the style meter and implement it into a lot of games and still have it be effective. The catch is you have to change what it values.
MGR is a good example of this. That game doesn't care if you vary your moves. What it cares about it you not taking damage, dishing out a lot of hits, and that you do the thing FAST. This results in it encouraging a very aggressive, yet efficient playstyle, kind of like you're supposed to be playing a cyborg ninja.
Now lets imagine a game where you played, like, a samurai or something, some kind of incredibly patient and precise warrior. You could make a style system where the bar drains really slowly and getting, like, frame perfect blocks/parries massively bump it up. With that, you could use the style system to encourage patient play while still keeping the pressure on to be engaged in combat.
I think you get my point. I think there are relatively few action games that wouldn't benefit from using this mechanic, even if you had to drastically change it from how it functions in DMC.
Yeah, I guess I was thinking about the specific implementation that DMC3/4 use of the style meter. Different variations of it for different games and characters as you describe would honestly be amazing. Many games would benefit from even the current incarnation of the system purely from a gameplay perspective IMO but it has great scope for experimentation and adaption.
I think in some cases just renaming the rankings would be enough for it to fit as well, this would work for Bayonetta or even the other protagonists in the DMC games quite well I think.
I think it makes sense thematically that the Scarecrows in DMC4 all act the same. They're a hive of mostly unintelligent demon insects working together to animate burlap bodies. They're purely instinctive creatures. Granted it's less interesting, but it may not be an oversight. Just a thought.
im still pissed that they took out the triple dash from the trickster style in dmc 4,and the worst thing is that the fan base either doesnt know or doesnt even care,like whats the point of trickster any more if you cant immediately put in a safe distance from a bad situation,not to mention how cool it was do it along with the air dash in the end.Sometimes you dont wanna roll all the time and have a proper awesome looking dodge mechanic which trust me gives you a great feel of mobility which makes the game even more fun to play as you keep zipping across enemy attacks like its a cutscene,and its a good friendly style to have if you are new to the game or come back to it after some time
Only the first dash in triple dash has invuln sadly. DMC4 lets you guard cancel dash recovery so you can chain them together on your own, or you can pop DT to chain them easily indefinitely.
Apsandman I'm sick of these mother fucking cancels plaguing dmc 4 so I can enjoy that game like I do with dmc 3 constantly,hey like lucifer is the best weapon of dante yet to me and it's cancels give satisfying results but why did they nerf dantes styles and moves so much,but dt having an infinite dash system was yeah the next step on to how dt should work like
They had to nerf Dante because his styles are OP on their own in DMC3. You could easily get just guard and just release by abusing i-frames from jump and roll. Ultimate Tempest was broke as fuck, hammer spam was broke as fuck.
Considering you bring all of his Styles at once, I think the developers had to nerfed Dante in one way or the other, i.e. reducing his consecutive dashes and weakening his guns power for example.
Beside, you can "infinitely" do multi dashes while in devil trigger.
DMC3, still my favor action game of all time! The game play, the character design, the story, the pacing, the sensation, the tension, the execution, are still unmatched till today!
Dude, this is an amazing essay, so much truth in it! Kudos & keep up the good work! cheers~
Ive beaten DMC4 multiple times and didn't even realize that the arm and leg scarecrows were two completely different enemy types.
Great video! Glad to know I'm not alone in how much more effective the style meter is in DMC over other character action games and I agree with your assessment that it goes a long way for these type of games. I think the only problem I've had with the DMC series is how limited they make you feel from the onset when starting a new game from scratch. It always felt like there was a disconnect between the opening cutscene where Dante is doing all these crazy things and tanking all these hits and then when you actually started playing you had this smaller moveset. I can understand that Dante would have to spend time learning new moves with new weapons that he just got but he should know everything regarding Rebellion since he's had it for longer.
Whereas with Bayonetta I can immediately jump in and have a much larger moveset and immediately start doing everything she was doing in the cutscenes. But to be fair on the flip side Bayonetta's combos lack I think a lot of the variety visually of DMC's which have a much more clear rhythm.
I'm just afraid of if/when we get DMC 5 that I'm gonna start up a new game and still have to purchase Stinger, Dance Macabre, etc.
And then there's people like Under the Mayo who claims that the style meter doesn't matter... Yeah right...
I don't see Nier Automata as a action game, I see it as a Yoko Taro game (people who played his games get it)
Yet another awesome video praising my fav game DMC3 👌
Anybody else hate how it judges you on time it took to beat the level?
2005 was a great year to the genre with dmc3 and gow
Also the first Yakuza game.
GOW helped define the cinematic aspect.
DMC3 absolutely redefined the mechanical and stylish aspects.
Man I sure love DMC3. I will never claim to be good at these games, but I still really enjoy them. It's too bad the PC port on steam is hot garbage or I would play though it again :( Great video as always!!!
Well, luckily serpentiem's Style Switcher mod fixes many of the PC version's issues.
I know not everyone wants to go through the hassle of installing mods, but I still think it's an option worth mentioning.
First game will always wears the crown.
czcams.com/video/cEmuFuZxom8/video.html
I am not going to call them "Craazy games"
Also I'm digging the new profile pic
Actually the proper genre spelling in the community is "cuhrayzee", not "craazy". Just pointing out. :)
TimtheEnchanter That's understandable, but Devil May Cry, Nier Automata, and other games of this caliber play VERY different from beat-em-ups such as, say, Streets of Rage.
to be fair, demonic insects in a leather bag would lack personality ^^° but yes..good point
I just found your channel. Great video. Subscribed!
Dancing in the Rain eh? Nice choice
Devil May Cry 3 and Animals As Leaders. Hot damn, I like your SSStyle.
Nice animals as leaders background music
*reads the title*
Gitin gud, that’s the lesson
Lady Maria from Bloodborne takes a lot of cues from the Vergil battles(especially the first battle in mission 7) and it's sad no one mentions this. Take a look closer on how she moves and how Vergil moves.
Saw what you did there at 12:05 ahahhahaha, in 2017.
I would argue Bayonetta provides more information as to what you do. The problem is it isn't in text. So basically you have to look up a guide to translate. If they just replaced it with text, it would be quite mathematical. But I can see how that would be a problem as well, you're just minmaxing the system now which discourages creative play.
the scoring system in bayonetta also sucks.
Strongly agree about Vergil!
Animals As Leaders, ah, the nostalgia. Great video.
Vergil is the best. Change my mind.
Man, I don't think I've seen anyone on youtube breakdown DMC3 or the DMC series as a whole in the way you have.
So, where would you place the XBOX NINJA GAIDEN BLACK and NINJA GAIDEN II games in your pantheon of action games?? I'd reay like to see a vid from you dissecting these two games (and even the inferior PS3 versions and shitty third entry).
couldn't have said it better by myself
Dope ass vid
dmc3 is god's second greatest gift to humanity first was okami
You know what I cannot stand?
When people take games like Devil May Cry, Bayonetta, or NieR Automata, and call them hack n slash games.
Actually beat em up sounds perfectly fine, they are extensively the same kind of game as Double Dragon and Streets of Rage, just with additional elements so as to not make the game too monotonous.
Dante and Virgil are even more awesome than Sasuke and Itachi.
Doc Rhino
I think it’s because they have a different dynamic
What's that Chon-y song you're using in the background while describing the scythe enemies? It's been stuck in my head for like 4 days
Animals as Leaders - On Impulse
"flawless enemie design"? nah. still a good game regardless? yes.
Yeah that was hyperbolic on my part lol
in fable tlc your experience wuld be multiplyed by your combo
yeah, but it didn't care if you varied your moves as there were no moves to vary and take a long time to drop to 0. That combo meter was way more about not getting hit than about being fast and stylish.
yeah i know im just sayn it was there. also i dont remember if you mentioned a more practical approach to dmc3`s style meter which also increase your damage and orbs collected. so its kinda smart way to force players to be stylish in order to be most effective. in DMD if your not max style... shit gets reeeealy hard.
Hey, do you have the links to the songs you used in the video ? They're really good.
Agreed on all this!
my duude!! Animals as Leaders - on impulse
great choice ;]
Great review subscribed
My only complaint is why is their still no true remaster for DMC3! I got duped into buying the 'HD' Collection for PS4 after i already own it for PS3 just to find out it's basically only a port. It's so annoying...
And both of them are cool as hell (dante and vergil)
Hey I just wanna let you know I love your choice in games and music DMC3 is amazing and blue and exile is bomb too
12:20 ... aheM MOTIVATION
Dmc and it sounds like the background music is from the weeknds “kissland album” I give this video a like!!!