Anti skating part 2 of 2 - Soundsmith - Peter Ledermann
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2017
- Part 2 of 2; Peter Ledermann of Soundsmith discusses why Anti-skating is needed, and how to adjust it for ANY cartridge without special test records or tools.
- Věda a technologie
Hi Peter, I just wanted to say that for years I had issues with sibilance on everything from cheap MM cartridges to expensive MC cartridges and I almost gave the hobby up completely due to frustration. Then I read about your method of setting anti skate and have it a shot. The results were unbelievable and the sibilance was COMPLETELY gone. I have been a staunch advocate of this method ever since and continue to recommend it to people.
Thanks Peter. I don't even own a turntable, but I'm interested in physics. I found this very fascinating, and informative.
Peter Ledermann I just want to say thank you for this. I have a VPI prime and used to use no antiskate because VPI says you dont need it. I did your test and, sure enough, the tonearm flew to the middle. I ended up having to put a metal nut on the antiskate mechanism and got it to slow down a lot. In the past, no matter what I did, I COULD NOT get a good center image. After adding the antiskate, I now have a perfect center image and the overall quality has improved dramatically in every aspect. I wish I did it a long time ago. Thanks!
Thanks for that info. Just ordered an Otello and am excited to hear this cart. I'm going to try this method of setting anti-skate on my ADC XLM cart today.
Thank You again, Professor Ledermann, you are exposing us to ideas that had remained unknown to many of us.
On another note, your sleeping INO, identified non-flying object looks almost exactly like the lighting fixtures we had at St Beatrice grade school, just a bit smaller.
The only clear explanation of the skating effect out there! Thank you!
I tried that method in the seventies.....it was empirical after trying all possible solutions......and it worked fine.
The scales on tone arms are only a starting point , they are seldom spot on !
Best Anti Skating info vid I have seen and used by far. Thank You!
Using a cd or laserdisc to set Anti Skate sounds right until you realise that there is no friction. Therefore if you use the cd method, you will have too little Anti Skate set.
Using a test LP Anti Skate track has very high modulation and therefore has too much friction. Setting the Anti Skate to this will have too much Anti Skate set.
Thank you Peter! Learn something new every day! I have two Fidelity Research tone arms designed by Ikeda-san. FR29 and FR54. Neither use anti-skating. Apparently Ikeda-san at that point didn't believe it mattered. I have the FR29 on an Ariston RD11 TT. Cartridge is a Coral 777 Sleeping Beauty lomc. Sounds excellent, no mis-tracking!
God damn I love this guy. Very clear
Awesome tutorial. Thanks, Peter!
Hi, just found your videos, great explanation of anti-skating. Please keep up the good work.
Long live vinyl.
Regards
Richard Herbert
Best explanation I've heard on anti-skating adjustment, as well as the physics of anti-skating. BTW, you remind me very much of a jazz drummer friend of mine, Randy Opela, originally from the Chicago area and later from Florida. Unfortunately he is no longer with us. he first turned me on to avant-garde and electronic musicians like John Cage and Karlheinz Stockhausen which I in turn passed on to a bass player I was working with at the time. Anyway, good presentation.
Thank you this helped me setting the correct anti skating. I used Diana Krall's latest album which is only 3 sides, side 4 is blank.
You’re a credit to the analog community. Thanks for sharing.
I have absolutely no reason to doubt you, being fully aware who I am writing to. So I will definitely follow your advice (honestly my quick and dirty setup was always doing this, only at the beginning of the record. Which then turned out to match what a test record says, for good or for bad), but I'm wondering; How does '30-40% modulation' translate to 'blank groove at the end'? Why does it work even though there, virtually, no drag or modulation?
I have been asked how SLOWLY the stylus should track inwards. Imagine if it held still, and then JUST started moving in VERY slowly - MUCH slower than if it WERE in the end groove. That is the point of best adjustment. Just a bit beyond holding still. Trouble getting it right with a VPI arm?? Please see my website for details on VPI arm anti-skating adjustment.
@soundsmithcorporatio Can you do a video showing exactly where and how to drop the needle in the runout groove. It's better to see this in action. Thanks
Hi, interesting video. Would anybody know of a video with someone actually perform these concepts? Trying to adjust anti-skating on my Denon DA-309 arm (DL103 cart, 2g tracking) When dropping the needle on the inner runout section, even at the very max setting, the needle moves inward slow, but not that slow. I was kind of hoping for a pivot point where it would be still, and dial back a bit to make go "slow". As I increase the anti-skating, it moves gradually slower but never to a still. I know my arm is a good match for my cart, It was designed for it. Now wondering if somethings wrong with it. At max setting it seams to be a lot of antiskating. Did not get to critical listening tes yet but if I lift the needle it swings back with quite a bit of velocity. If I want to Cue a particular track it is quite difficult, Just lowering the lever pull the needle back about 4-5 mm. So I can't visually set the needle to a place and just drop it. To me this means quite a lot of anti-skating. Any helps?
Would it be normal for the anti-skate setting to be significantly higher than the VTF? I have a Technics SL-1200 and perhaps the anti-skate spring isn't as strong as it should be, but it feels like the tonearm doesn't pause and then move very slowly unless it's set to 3.5-ish (with a VTF of 2 grams). Thanks!
@@shredhero I believe he said NOT in the run out groove. In the groove, it will only and always follow the groove. Go back and review what he said.
Thanks a milion! This is a great explanation and a great tip to do it well (or at least better than the diles on my table).
Great video and very helpful! However when you say use the run out area to adjust A-S so that the stylus move inward "slowly" .... well, how slow is slowly? Is it almost stationary slowly or half speed of no A-S slow? I think if you use your pen to give viewers some idea it would be great! Thanks!
I adjust my anti skate while the music is playing and listen to a few minutes then adjust if the cymbals fade off up or down tiny adjustments eventually you will hear better sound .
In doing this not all LP s are the same so if your fussy do the same for different records if you think the sound can be improved .But you can get it pretty good this way set and forget but write down the tracking force weight and the anti skate setting .
If you want a vinyl record with a perfectly smooth surface and no grooves you can use the Diana Krall "turn up the quiet" side 4 record to adjust your anti-skating and let the arm go very gently towards the center of the record 👍🏻
I bet that Rega probably uses the "Stevenson" method because I notice my Mahler records always sound better at the end of a side on my P3 (compared to my Thorens).
Thank you very much for the informative video. My question : does one need to change the anti skating force when switching between 33 and 45 rpm records? Theoretically the faster the record the more friction force produced and hence the need for a more anti skating force.
To my knowledge, kinetic friction is equal to the normal force multiplied by the kinetic friction coefficient. The equation does not involve velocity, therefore is not velocity dependent. So in theory, as long as the normal force remains constant you should not have to alter your anti skate. However, in this case, more modulation in the groove results in higher friction. Speed does not increase friction coefficient.
Hi, please help me tio make sure I understood it well. On mt TT Technics SL1200 GR in instruction in written I have to set antiskating exactly like Trakcing force. TF 1,25 G =means Antiscating 1,25 too. Mayby my English is not good enough, so make mu seure I understood well - I should set Antiscating 40 % less? If TF 1,25 anti should be around 0,85?
I have a Rega turntable with an 880 arm. If you are familiar with Rega tonearms they use a magnet for antiskate and will swing back to the outside with no tracking force even with antiskate set to zero. I have my tracking force set to 1.5. I tried your method and even with the antiskate set to half the tracking force the arm still moves back toward the outside. It does move slower to the outside with less antiskate. Have you tried this method with a Rega arm?
Excellent, thanks!
Peter his one of the best in the world!
Thank you! Very straightforward and concise.. So: SLOW: Just beyond stationary. Excellent.
What is you opinion of using a CD for this? I am thinking it is a harder surface than vinyl - and would therefore introduce more skate? Would it be acceptable practice though? (for longer viewing time before the stylus gets picked up by the groove).
CD's are NOT vinyl, so NOT the same drag coefficient as vinyl.
Great video Peter. I have been using this for all my setups for a couple of years, and it works great. I have managed to find a few completely blank on one side records that I use. If you go to a used record store that has a lot of old used DJ 12" pressings, you will occasionally find some that are one sided.
Was just wondering if it would be even better to use a record with a blank side
Great anti-skating explanation. I'm confused about a couple of things though.
1) Given identical content (modulation) do the inner and outer grooves put the same amount of drag/friction/skating force on the stylus? It seems like it would be less since the inner grooves are traveling slower (fewer mm/sec). Though maybe not since the same amount of modulation is passing the stylus.
2) Wouldn't the unmodulated area between the run-out groves have far less friction than a typical modulated groove? Thus less force being applied to the stylus to pull the arm to the center? If so then if the arm moves toward the center wouldn't that indicate not enough anti-skating force? If there was modulation there then the arm would move toward the center even faster. It seems that if placed on an area without modulation that the correct amount of anti-skating should overcome the skating force. Resulting in the arm being moved outward. Not inward.
Unmodulated surface, has to my understanding, less friction. The force is therefor also less, than in a modulated groove. The tip of the needle is not (supposed) to touch the bottom of the modulated groove, which it is at a Unmodulated groove; this results in higher friction.
Isn't it also because of where the needle sits on the record. If the needle were at a 90 degree to the spindle it would pull straight away from the tonearm pivot, but because the needle rests on the lower section of the record, the record movement is now moving in a sideways direction to the tonearm pivot, thus pushing the arm to the inside of the record, irregardless of the angle of the cartridge.
First, let me say thank you for your time in making these videos, I have learned a lot from you on these subjects.
My question is, is it fair to assume, since you are referring to straight tonearms with the angled headshells, that the S-shaped tonearms like the one on my Denon DP-790, are designed that way to counter the anti skating problems with a straight arm? If so, why does my turntable have an anti skating adjustment? Thank you again, and all the best to you.
No, it doesn't matter if the arm is an S shape or straight. It is all about the axis of the cartridge, so the direction of the force not being aligned to the pivot point of the arm
Make a simple sketch of any tonearm, and it is quickly easy to see that the arm could even be a giant squiggle shape, it does not matter (ignoring things like weight, flex, etc). Only the distance from pivot to needle tip (= overhang) and inward angle of the cartridge matter. As the overhang measures directly point to point, the arm only establishes and locks in those parameters, and its shape is not involved. Matters of aesthetics, rigidity, mass, may enter new considerations but won't affect the essential setup parameters.
What about turntables without an anti skating dial? How do you track it then?
The runout grooves have lacquer ID inscriptions in between, wouldn't that damage the stylus?
This is an excellent point; I have wondered/worried about this as well. So......the rule of thumb is to make sure the ID inscription is FAINT at worst. Most all of them are. I have never, in 15 years, dislodged a stylus by having it accidentally go across the ID inscription. But you are correct - SOME records have VERY deep inscriptions, and these SHOULD be avoided. THANK YOU for this question - (Peter Ledermann)
+Tony C. If you have one then great, use that.
Technics SL1200-MK2, stock arm, Sumiko headshell, Ortofon 2M Blue cartridge. Tracking force set to 1.8g. If I try the runout test as described, I have to set the Anti Skating to about 2.8 or 2.9 to get the stylus to drift slowly toward the spindle on the non-grooved surface. Does that seem right? That's a lot of anti-skating.
I’m playing with this and my new 1200GR and am getting similar anti-skate figures as you. Sounds great to me. Stylus is very strait. Before when I had it set to the same as the vtf the stylus would shoot inward the the very beginning of the song sometimes further. Now it rides the lead in groove very well. I’m using a Ortofon Concorde 40th @ 1.8 vtf and somewhere around 2.75-2.8 on the anti-skate dial. Still playing with it, but it sounds great.
@@seanlanddB Where did you end up with this? Do you keep your antiskate at the same setting now? I'm having a similar issue with my AT-VM540ML and SL-1200. Seems to take a lot more antiskate to do what he's saying.
@@mf1932 Sounds like maybe you vtf may be too high (too much weight in the stylus)? But to answer your question: I ended up with the anti skate dialed up high to get the results he's talking about in the video and i never looked back.
I have a Dual CS 627 Q table that the anti skating shows a "round" symbol and "oval" symbol. Is this just a Dual quirk, or is it for needles that are round shaped or oval shaped?
There aren't many round stylus around, most are oval in some fashion.
My problem with this method is that it is terribly fussy. You have to drop the stylus at just the right time to miss the groove. Why can't you use a test record with a blank track, no groove, like my Shure test record? It has a track a little more than half way in with no groove and it is wide enough that there is no problem seeing the movement of the arm. Much easier than trying to miss the groove in the runoff.
It is the only reliable way to set the bias.
However, the skating force is not caused by the offset, it is caused by the overhang, If you have undehang, the stylus moves outwards, away from the centre.
Everything is a compromise. Now you have me thinking of a method to calculate the drag coefficient. So then I can create an equation to determine the general amount of clockwise moment generated by the canted headshell. Then dial the anti skate to counteract the resulting force.
I listen to mainly Heavu Metal/ Thrash and Death Metal. Is this the still best way of setting the tracking for that ? Forgive the maybe ignorant question.
Yes, exactly the same. .... for all records ... once it's set, it's set
I tried this method on a single sided record. I can set it on the inner grooves and it works fine. However, if I then drop the needle closer to the outer grooves, it jumps inward unless I add a whole lot of anti-skate. Is something wrong?
I'm wondering the same thing
Hi what about getting the tonearm to sit still in the middle of a blank record?
I think this method is pretty close to that.
@@mr.classicalmusic5607 funny enough. I remember in the 1970s using a good gold ring lanco L75 turntable and deciding you didn't need the counter bias weight anyway.
Really fascinating. I have an sl 1210mk2 and a nagaoka 110 mp110 cartridge set at 1.8 g. VTA set perfectly level. I set AS at same and somehow felt something wasn't right with sound. I then adjusted AS using spinout grooves and discovered it was very rapid. I set anti skate until spinout was very slow. Result: Everything balanced out and clarity across music appeared. There was also an injection of warmth n rhythm. My issue is psychological in nature. The sound of my system is great but the so called audiophile voice in my head says that I'm wrong because my stylus pressure is set at 1.8 but my AS is now set at 2. As Ozzy would say, Am I going insane. Or has anyone else found the same. I've only come across comments that suggest either the same AS setting as VTA or slightly less. Please put me right so I can set up, forget and just enjoy the music... 😂😂😂😂😂🎶
I just actually spent a good hour playing with anti skate and tracking forces on same songs and ended up at 1.5g tracking force and 2g anti skate. THAT was the best combo with very little tracking force. Also kept trying 1.5g anti skate to match the tracking force but wasn't as nice.
When I follow this procedure the stylus crashes into the first track of the record
YOu kan use a CD to...But you have to make an adapter for the center pin.
I would just set the anti-skate to the same as the dialed in tracking force, because real audio engineers likely knew more than the average audio enthusiast. The only possible glitch might be if the measured tracking mass is off significantly from the indicated dial setting even after zeroing it out first; should one set the anti-skate to that of the mass dial, or to the actual measured tracking weight? After belaboring the reason why skating happens, the concept of floating a stylus across blank vinyl does not line up with the explanation.
"average audio enthusiast"? The man is literally a lifelong engineer who design and build high-end phono cartridge.
my Rega P3 has no anti skate adjustment.
Yes it does. All Rega 3s have adjustable anti-skate if they have a Rega RB300 series arm. On most of them it is a small black button in a slit in the top of the arm rest platform that can be adjusted back or forth.
Imagine you are on skates in an ice skating rink. You go fast then bend down and touch the ground with your right hand. As a result of this force would you then turn right or left ?
Answer is right. So now you know. That is the force you are trying to balance to keep going in a straight line.
I believe in the blank record band method for adjusting AS, just like it's described here, except I set to just a tad higher, so the arm doesn't move at all while traveling on a groove-less portion. My reasoning for that is that the friction of a stylus riding in a groove has to be greater than when it's riding on its tip only, on a smooth, unmodulated surface. Interestingly, when I set the AS like that, the value displayed on the dial matches the VTF exactly.
The friction would be greater in your setup, and it would be from the outer groove as you are setting your tone arm to fight against moving in the center at all. Your needle it getting pulled toward the center because the pressure from the outer groove rather then evenly lining up in the groves.
Mind blown. Antiskate is only a phenomenon of cocked tonearms/headshells. I would like to experiment with straight tonearms
A straight tonearm also requires anti-skate since the cantilever axis is not pointing back toward the pivot. Curved tonearms allow the installer to set the cantilever axis nearly parallel to the tonearm section close to the cartridge whereas one has to noticeably tilt the cantilever (cartridge body) with respect to the tonearm axis using an alignment template. The only tonearm tracking scheme that has zero skating force is a tangential arm because the cantilever always points back to the pivot. Straight or curved tonearm design choices are more concerned with looks and mass.
Niel degrase Tyson is right, the dark matter of the universe is pulling the stylus towards the center of the universe.
Frank Schroder 30 or 40 % modulation .... / discussion.
Just set tracking force to 5 grams that way you won't have to worry about antiskating because stylus is sitting firmly in groove and it won't ever skip, this is why audio geniuses at crosley do it.
🤣 I see what you did there! 😆
@@StopMoColorado Think this is what's known as Dark humour 🤣
I was going to mention, it appears that your UFO has lost power. "Now is the time to ATTACK!!!!" God's speed Will Robinson.....God's speed... 👽🖖 "Na-nu Na-nu..."
So I should disregard all of the videos recommending anti-skate be set so that the tonearm remains stationary, neither moving in or out? I was wondering because the anti-skate on my Panasonic RD-2900 (basically a Technics) only slows the tonearm while moving to the center, even at the highest setting it will not allow the tonearm to either remain still or move to the outer edge. So is mine correct if I set it to move to the center as slowly as possible?