Why MEN PAY on the FIRST DATE: the freedom of walking away
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- If dating is an extended hiring process, then it is typically on the company doing the hiring to cover the expenses incurred during said process. This is why organizations fly out compelling applicants when they are interested in their services. However, since most applicants will not ultimately be offered a position, covering these expenses allows the organization to back out of the process at any moment and for any reason without recourse. This is why men pay on the first date: it affords them the freedom of walking away without obligation.
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Presented by Orion Taraban, Psy.D. PsycHacks provides viewers with a brief, thought-provoking video several days a week on a variety of psychological topics, inspired by his clinical practice. The intention is for the core idea contained within each video to inspire viewers to see something about themselves or their world in a slightly different light. The ultimate mission of the channel is to reduce the amount of unnecessary suffering in the world.
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This video comes with a fantastic timing.
I was on a date few days ago and this girl tells me with a disarming imprudence: "if a man invites me for a coffee I won't go because it's just a waste of time. Coffee is not worth my shower and having to dress and do my makeup." I let her wander on the subject and then I ask back: "...but in this way you reduce the chances of meeting a good person, not to mention that the man has to prepare himself as well". She gives an annoyed half laugh and continues: "I have to be sure that he is willing to invest money in me from the very first evening, so I know that he is not going out with other girls since he can't pay for a dinner for each one, while with coffees it's different."
At that point I tell her that it was time for her to go get a taxi and go home. Number deleted. Guys open your eyes and please have no mercy.
Dodged a bullet
What if the guy could pay for a dinner for each one ? I wonder what she'd think of that lol.
@@DeltaV64 just date a non-american, no headaches nor games.
I got to give it to her, she is smart but its nonesense in the end. She sounds like high maintenance.
@@DeltaV64 Ironically, she'd probably find that very attractive.
Once my sexual drive changed over time, I began to turn down options even if they were the only only option at the time.
I strongly believe that waiting for better options and bulding a better "ship" is way better than ending up miserable...
this is 💯% the best strategy. however, most guys only realize this once they get divorced and lose their money, house and kids in divorce, and end up single, broke, lonely, homeless and depressed.
@@marriagecausesdivorce7540
So true. And the worst part is that men in such situations rarely get at least a shoulder to cry on.
@@badmojjo You just have to be willing to pay for it (therapy).
That is true. However, you must have many "applicants" in oder to evaluate the "best option" you are talking about.
If you are a man, you must invest some money until you find the right applicant among several girls. Perhaps such expenses will be less than ending up miserable.
@@kellygreenii I have 3 therapist friends... I wonder why 😂
Treat it as a job hire or interview if you want, but remember that employee's that under perform don't take half of the company when they leave!
😂
Don’t cohabit or marry her. That’s you effectively making her co-owner of the firm. Like it or not, that’s the law, and your the mark.
Nice. Well said.
They do, if you‘re dumb enough to sign such a contract with the ceo, where he gets a lot of shares and you have no control over him
LOL, my boyfriend paid 1 dollar and 20 cents for my drink on the first date. WTF? I didn't walk away with half his earnings
"That's what paying communicates: I don't owe you anything." - This was true even before paying so there's no reason to pay.
I think the moral of the story is not about paying or not but to develop a vetting mentality. Paying on the first date helps to do that.
Romantic relationships are like the suits of a poker deck of cards. At the start, all you need is hearts and diamonds. At the end, all you desperately want is a club and a spade
Wow I like that one !
Romantic relationships are for men who lack vast sexual opportunities, so they get with one women in order to have a stable source of getting laid. In reality, the more opportunities you have as a man, the less appealing relationships become.
I was told they're like tornadoes.
A lot of excitement, sucking, and blowing in the beginning.
And in the end you lose your house and all your stuff.
@@Khan-rz8qi Yep. Deep down, that's what I always say. Most men enter RL because of the chance of having consistent s3x. If most men had the opportunity to have several s3xual options, the majority would not settle for only one.
@@Khan-rz8qiwhy are you reducing men to this ?😅
You guys missed the big part. We can walk away at any time. ANY time. Hell with ´politeness´, walk.
i think better advice would have been for dr. taraban to say just go for low cost dates, e.g. coffee, for walks, going to the park, etc. that way any money you waste is not a lot and the woman you date is not expecting a lavish and luxury lifestyle. never lead with your wallet, because she will just treat you like an ATM cash machine.
Exactly.
you can leave at any time and pay for your half
If you think having sex gives you a testosterone boost, try rejecting a woman calmly with money on the table. Your confidence will skyrocket.
Walk away, even if she pays LOLL
1. Coffee date first (of course make sure you pay), if she proves her worth then she graduates to a real date (dinner) or if you are still on the fence with her instead of dinner go on a gym date, or an ice cream date. HOWEVER if a girl truly likes you. She wont care what you do regardless of the activity. Fun fact my best relationships were with the least amount of inital investment. The more she expects upfront the higher the likelihood it wont workout as she probably has a gapping hole of need that you'd never fulfill unless you have lambo money
best comment. if a girl genuinely likes you, she won't care if you are just meeting up for coffee or a park date. she is just glad to spend time with you. guys, spending loads on 1st dates are just compensating for a lack of personality and attractiveness.
Dude if you a a luxury yay h, you will vet the best furniture and treat it accordingly , and buy the best polish for it etc.
pay for diner and date less , select your furniture well , buy less but classy.
If paying for afew dinners which you Also have to eat, breaks your bank . Then you shouldn’t even be dating at all. Or you end up with a masculine energy woman and complain she’s cold
@@sparkle1949You don't get it. You spend resource on women that are worth it. The first date is when you evaluate her. So no dinner for first dates.
Men pay all the way through… Not just on the first date. Given the nature of modern female behavior, it just doesn’t seem like a worthwhile investment. I feel especially sorry for all the young men today who are not only vilified by society at large, but who will likely also never get to experience a healthy intimate relationship. I cannot even bear to treat female clients anymore. Their pathological sense of entitlement and unchecked aggression have simply grown intolerable. This has all just gone too far IMO. MEN: please stand up for yourselves and stop reinforcing their terrible behavior. In other words, STOP SIMPING.
Yeah, in long term, simping actively destroys both worlds, but simping will only be amplified in the coming years as there are more and more ways by which women can substract resources from romantically unsuccessful men without even knowing them. Unless AI progress will be rampant
If they listen to your bullshits of course young men will likely never get to experience a healthy intimate relationship. You should go on therapy or maybe should date men.
Great advice from a good friend:
If you’re every unsure how you feel about someone, always pay for the first date. People are very good at knowing whether they have wasted their money or not.
First video I openly disagree with. As both a man I. LTR and former hiring manager.
I have the freedom to walk away without paying just as much as I do with paying. And we only pay for the interview expenses for candidates where we're on the short lever, meaning for the positions where our boat is not constructed enough. Otherwise, the resumes would fly in anyway.
I am now the main provider for the family, but never paid for the dates. Why? My standard is/was that I only date women smart enough to make their own ends meet. That means she'll be smart E ough to handle the resources I provide. So any woman demanding I pay for the date falls below the bar.
Me paying for stuff is the bonus for her work, you dont pay out the bonus during hiring.
Good comment. Agreed.
Great perspective on dating/providing. This crackpot Taraband stands to learn a lot from a man like you!
Of course. Anyone can walk away at any time. And one of the easiest ways to make sure nothing follows you is to put some money on the table. This is why successful companies offer severance: it's a defensive strategy against litigation (which would be even more expensive).
@@psychacks Lol, nothing will "follow you" if you only pay for yourself on the first date; she's not going to open a case against you because she has to pay for her own dinner.
I pay on the first date, but only because it's a social more. I like a lot of your videos but this one is just mental hamstering gymnastics.
@@peterbest7732hink he offers the example as a metaphorical construct not a literal one. What I think he means is you dont get to be told “Ive paid for this evening and its my time aswell, you dont just get to walk away cause then ill disrespect you and make a scene”, you just get to walk away. Having to “refuse applicants” en mass from a certain point, makes the necessity of an effective scissor, a very real thing. Paying for the first date is that scissor. Why? Because youre not taking the p on someone else’s money investment(which would kind of be disrespectful on your part),you’re not attracting any agro. If anything its cold af to pay for the first date while operating with this mindset. Because its walking into the date with scissors at the ready. Its like it even gives you leverage during the “negociation”, youre the one that could just stand up and walk away. She might not know it. But you do. And that’s impactful I believe.
When on line dating sites started I met first dates for lunch. It was shorter and cheaper. I paid my share. Later I only met them at coffee places and arrived early to pay for my own drink. Paying my share means I can walk away without guilt. I am female.
yeah i agree with this, honestly ive never paid and expected something but then again ive only dated women ive met IRL. Online i would typically do walk in the park and coffee, but tbh online dating is not great. Best luck is meeting people in the real world.
Yup, this is my policy now. I haven’t gone back on line dating even before Tinder was launched (have never had any dating apps). I just do what I enjoy doing and live my best life. Although I wouldn’t swear off dating, however, a romantic relationship is time and energy consuming (money, too). If I am not with a guy I feel is worth taking my time and energy to be with, it is a no brainer “no thanks”.
Unfortunately I only get 30 mins for lunch, which is usually a sandwich of some kind. Coffee after work is possible, but I'll get hungry and want a meal, which will distract me from the date.
@@tancreddehauteville764 how about weekend? Who has time and mind during working days to meet a total stranger? I didn’t. If a guy couldn’t meet me for lunch or morning coffee on Saturday, I suspect he’s married.
@@33Jenesis Weekends are also busy for many people! I always went on my dates in the evening after work, and that usually meant a pizza somewhere.
Here's a better rule:
If she seems uninterested during the date, then it's not worth your money.
Else, if she seems interested CONSIDER paying.
Here’s my take, if you even have to take her out on a date to impress her alone, then you’re not that guy. I’ve literally never been on a date, all of my experiences came from me being physically attractive with a great mouthpiece. Dates are for guys who aren’t naturally chosen.💯💯
@@Khan-rz8qi I agree, I have had girls come to my home who were not experienced which I could tell. Sex the 1st time and they wanted to date and just han gout with me, treat me. Now I got this girl, highest body counter I have ever known off. Made me wait 5 dates untill I told her, why should I wait in comparison to other guys? What am I doing wrong. Now I just pulled back after a few times of sex cuz she gave me STD. Now she is chasing but I think its funny, she is used to boys chasing her and she is obviously playing them. I'm just down for the fun of the ride as the sex was great.
You are spot on, when a woman is really into you she won't even whine about having to date, at least not before getting intimate with you. I would really date her obviously if I want to go long term. It can be allot of fun and is a great way to get to know someone but I sure as hell never dated anybody to just get laid.
@@53strat55You gotta be careful out there man. I’m very active but I stay wrapped up, I got some great women who I know aren’t sleeping around so I regularly get tested and protect myself in order to protect them too.
@@Khan-rz8qi When the girl pre-selects you, she'll even sometimes pay for your stuff. LMAO
That's how you can differentiate real interest.
@@NeoZetaFacts! I've experienced this several times. The way a girl looks at you affects how the date will end. In a financial, sexual or next date standpoint.
With all do respect, a man who values his time and respects himself wouldn't subject himself to dating.
So how is he supposed to get laid?
This is the first time I disagree with Dr. Taraban , mostly because of the current condition of the dating market. I believe that most women come to a date for extracting resources (free dinner, movie, gift etc.) or just play the chance of knowing a potential less than 1% man while most men do invite women for a temporary relation or sex (they are not looking for an "employee" or anything long term). So it becomes a game where nobody is going to a date with genuine intention and the man is the one paying for it, as the woman at least got the resources and probably some validation.
I disagree, have you actually spent time with people you have no interest in to get stuff out of them? It's only done my a small minority of women. It's the worst thing to spend time with someone you have no interest in dating, you'd have to be a psychopath.
@@AnniK243I agree..and be a masochist too as some men are so repulsive and excruciating to spend time with..no amount of money in the world is worth my precious time!
This is great advice! if we were living before the 2010's. Women nowadays just leech resources and attention for males. Several meal-paying men is just what they want. No woman wants commitment. But lessons need to be painful to be properly learnt. So, young men, go outside and pay for dates, you will experience soon enough what is dating in 2020's
Yup! While growing up, I got "on the hook" for at least two very expensive *first* dates. *Never again!* If / when I plan dates, the are for "a" drink / coffee, or I invite her to an event I was going to attend, anyway.
I always pay for every date. Usually about $500 an hour.
For that it better be gfe or bbfs lol
@@talianun3259 I've found rentals are better value in the long term.
That's not a date😂.....that's a pro
😂
That's not a date it's a Medjool.
My EX-wife used to ridicule me in front of her friends for taking her to a "chain restaurant" on our first date.
- I had about an hours notice to plan a date
- We had a nice time
- I had no idea it was a chain restaurant
- She ended up eating there 3x per month
Unfortunately, this red flag came up too late. I will never let a woman disrespect me like that again. It's one and done.
"My EX-wife used to ridicule me in front of her friends for taking her to a "chain restaurant" on our first date." -WTF?? *Soooooo ungrateful!*
@@M0viLover it was a red flag for everything else.
- Nothing was ever good enough for her
- The thought was never enough
- It was always a competition with her friends
Blah, blah, blah....
I don't want to sound like a jerk, but the crazy thing is we both had high-paying jobs. God forbid we go to some place with laminated menus 1 day out of 365. The entire thing was disrespectful.
There were young couples there rhaving a night out looking dreamingly into each other's eyes and I find out later that I'm there with some B that resent me for it... my infraction for choosing a chain restaurant.
Oof, I'm getting angry thinking of it it. I wasted 11 years Whatever.
@@thedalillama Dude.. I think *most* of us have been there.. In the 2000s I dated a Latina. Come one Valentine's Day, I made reservations for us at a "nice" restaurant. I went to her place after work, with a solitary rose. The dinner cost $100. We go back to her place, and she has a couple of gifts for me. I open them. She then asks, "Where's mine??" I tell her that I *did* bring her a rose for the .. "holiday." *And* - I just dropped $100 on us for dinner?! *She* said that expected *a dozen* roses, plus *at least* another gift. I replied that *if* that was the case - she should have told me. Instead of the "nice" restaurant, we could gone to a mid-tier restaurant, and I would have spent the difference on *what she wanted.* W0men are *never* satisfied / happy..
@@M0viLover Your story reminded me of another situation. That's exactly what we face as men - always guess what they want and never allowed to deliver... even if it's precisely what they say they want. At a certain point, why bother?
American women are trash.
You are a simp. She knew that.
You married her up anyway.
Not her fault.
Big Cope. What do men get out of the relationships? If females only date up they are going to always benefit the most out of relationships.
Sex?
You must have had a rough dating life.
Can't imagine what all of the things that women are good for...
@@williammentink and you must be blind….
Because you can’t see how useless most em are today 😂❤
@@williammentinkother than sex give me a list
"what do men get out of relationships?" ....... erm, loads actually. Men get headaches, moaned at, complained at, shouted at, hen pecked, drama, chaos, regret, arguments, bossed around, stress, etc.
This line of thinking resonates with me as I approach 30 and more young men need to hear this message. I had to insert myself into a woman's orbit when I was younger if I wanted to get some play, but now women +/- 5 years of my age attempt to insert themselves. For you young bucks out there, if you're under the age of 25 keep chipping away at a decent career/business, build your stock/bond portfolio, and get some cash together for a down payment on a house. Then start the hiring process. Thanks for the insightful video Doc! Subbed!
Paying to walk away only serves to sooth your internalized chivalry/masochism. You do not pay a 304 for service not rendered, you just walk away. The restaurant does not call the cops on you for only paying your own meal. There's no law other than the one in your head, forcing you to pay for a stranger. If she has nothing of value to offer you, walk away, ghost her, delete info, and think of her no more. The less resource you give away for free, the more you'll have to trade with later - all types of marketplaces are governed by this logical value exchange, not by chivalry or communism. When was the last time a company offered to fly you across the country, hotel and all expenses paid, for a job interview? All for the privilege to walk away? Which they can do without paying to begin with?
Good analysis. I agree, Dr. T is wrong on this issue. There's too many "foodie" calls happening and with prices for dinner out SOARING, it's too much of a risk.
Good take. Dr. is incorrect on this one.
@@josealexi5141 Agreed, its always coffee first unless i meet the girl outside of online. Online women cannot demand dinner dates, women i know and meet irl naturally thats different.
some girl on some app, nah thanks ineed to know you better before i blow 120$ on dinner.
Yh Doc is usually amazing but I think his point about paying to walk away is weak here. His other point about seeming marketable seems sound though.
I just pray Doc isn't turning into a beta cuck right before our eyes.
I am a lady.
The logic you explained is exactly the reason why when I was a single woman, I never ever allowed men to pay for me, unless I liked them a lot. So they didn’t have the impression they have a chance to enter in a “interview” with me, as for the example you made. It was a way to politely tell them I am not interested.
I am very happily married for over 10 years now.
The good man has to pay, as an initiation to what can possibly unfold. A bad guy may be one night stand worthy, not more. Adorable gender, isn't it!?
Women also walk away
And they don’t pay
So paying can’t be a reason for men to be able to walk away
Because women also walk away eventhough they didn’t pay
Exactly this, and if you are paying and she sticks around, you will never know if she's just sticking around for the food & drinks.
I'm afraid Mr Taraband is really starting to lose it, sadly I no longer view him as a trusted resource.
@@skinnyguy7773your messing up taking them for food and drinks 😂. Go in dates to have fun bowling, top golf, etc stuff you would go do anyways and enjoy yourself regardless of the outcome.
@@skinnyguy7773 Indeed. Worse, if you pay for service not rendered, you've just established the fact that your money/resources are free, since you gave it away for nothing in return. All marketplaces are governed by value exchange. If you assigned no value to your resources on day one, you can expect to keep paying for no return on investment, from that point forward.
Simping is poison to a relationship. Don't do it.
Correct. She will give it to the dude she really like for free. In fact, she'll be willing to pay. There are women who take $ from their current dude to give to their pooky in prison.
@@joncarbone this is my experience too.
i thought there was something wrong with me as i was the one who was doing the ‘walking away’ or rejecting each time, but, yes. i have options. I have a theory also; women have a stronger initial filter but if you are deemed acceptable and pass their initial filter they can bond quickly to you, so it makes sense why it’s difficult for some men to even get past that initial filter.
There’s nothing wrong with it. It just proves that you also have a filter which is smart especially around these times.
I never thought of that, it makes a lot of sense.
That's called pre selection
If the woman has burning sexual desire or attraction paying won't even be an issue. If she's truly interested in you and what you have to offer her she'll gladly pay or at least pay her half without question. The best way to save your time and money is to let her pay (at least her half of the bill) if this turns her off she wasn't that attracted with you in the first place. If she is truly interested she'll want to see you again, regardless of the fact that she also had to pay. It's not the 1950's anymore ladies and gentlemen. Neither gender needs to waste their time and or money.
Spot-on. If she likes and respects you - she will bye herself offer to pay her half, she is not a hooker.
You told no lies. Surely aligns with my own experiences.
Precisely! I used to tell my friends that scaring off the gold-diggers was the whole POINT of a first date.
You know what’s funny though? That in the 1950s, if you offer to take a woman to the local fair as a first date, she’ll happily accept it. Give that same offer to the modern woman and she will look at you like you’ve just killed her mother.
Agreed. If she pays, she's definitely not a hooker. It's the one who accepts money who is the servant.
Pay too often with no results changes ones attitude from freedom to walk away to not enough juice for the squeeze.
😂 I like your comment cheers me up because it’s so true.
You can walk away and pay for your part only. No rules against that. The metaphor doesn't make a strong argument either way. You're never going to see this woman again, so what's the point of paying her way? Your own guilty conscience? Give me a break.
Yeah ..; first time I've disagreed with Orion.
This is the first video where I actually cannot get behind what you’re saying. Although I agree, it’s probably best to pay for a first date to demonstrate value, it depends on just how much you’re paying and what the experience is. I can walk away from any date without paying no problem. Paying for a date doesn’t give you the ticket to walk, it’s in your own head. Gents learn how to walk away. That demonstrates your value even more.
Nice. I just said the same thing.
The problem is that men don't have a lot of applicants. They need to increase the compensation.
The problem in your analogy isn't the compensation offered, it's the compensation expected. Minimum wage applicants demanding 6 figure salaries means no one takes the job.
@@williammcginnis9026 agreed. Unemployment is too low 😄
In German German Men do not pay for a dinner for their date. It is not done in Germany
Sehr Gut!
ich zahle nur Frühstück und Mittagessen 😂
@@christofotto2499 Du bist der klügste Mann in deiner Stadt.
I think the 'tradition' of having the man always pay for the first date is about setting up the expectation that the man will be paying and providing for this female throughout the relationship. In other words, establishing the you are the sucker who has to pay for her attention. I don't like that dynamic and in today's world they can more than take care of themselves.
Taraban's advice here is somewhat contradictory to one of his prior videos where he said that "the man that pays the most get's the least". I believe that is true. If she likes you she will stick around regardless of who pays. And if she doesn't then good riddens!
I never pay for dates, always 50/50. I like to maintain the frame that she's not anymore special to me than I am to her.
She's not a prize or a present to me.
Regarding your comparison with jobs, you'd never fly a candidate with expenses covered if you could find a handful of equally good candidates living 10 minutes from the office. And that's what happens with my dates, they are not one in a million women the same as I'm not a millionaire rock star in my twenties.
Solid advice. Thank you Dr. Taraban!
You are talking what I needed. Love in the language of economics. Just awesome, bro!
They may be out earning in the short term which is not really much to speak about. How are they doing long term and what are they saving? Based on observational experience they pine about "security" but behave like it's their least concern. The old saying of "watch what they do, don't listen to what they say" shows their true intentions and beliefs.
Agree 💯, women do not put any effort into trying to secure a man or caring about what men like how do they expect to find a man to provide security, they’re really not trying at all from my observations I seriously don’t bother dating and am loosing interest in girls for this reason. Most have bad pasts and are not fun to interact with they use bedroom fun to get you interested but that’s the only thing they really do.
I strongly disagree. If she show no intrest in you, you should pay ONLY for yourself and leave. When you pay for both, you just give her what she wanted in first place - free meal/coffe. They aren`t worth your money. Invest in women only if she show readiness to invest in you.
🎯 real talk, I don't even take most women out on "dates" I haven't been intimate with or high interest with a woman. As far as I'm concerned its GIFT to woman if a man actually spends effort and time on her.
I believe the he is working under the assumption that SHE is interested in you, but after spending time with her, you find that you're not interested in her. So she's not getting what she wants. She wants the keys to the kingdom & a seat at your right hand, but instead all she gets is a coffee.
U didnt get it
He means if she is a qualified applicant sure u pay the cost.
She's showing interest by showing up to the date, no?
@@TheBroSplitonly an absolute loser would date for a free meal
If we will keep the analogy for dating - the employment one, then how stupid it will be for a HR to pay for every job interview meeting? This YouCorp will go bankrupt in a few days.
And interview always costs. Your interviewer is being paid by the company/employer.
damn you are the best, you hit the points deeply and wisely, decades of trying to understand this by entire communities of men doesnt explain it as well as an 8 min video from you
I can see the same argument from a woman's perspective: 'I AM the employer, and my time is more valuable than the man's. He has to pay, be funny, be sexy, etc, or else I will not hire him'. Since women _are_ the selectors (the ones who consent) this makes more sense, so I disagree with your example.
Your example is for the 10%-20% men that are being pre-selected by so many women, that they've become the selectors themselves; but the core is *always* the women's selection.
What if, in your analogy, the candidates you wine and dine have no intention of accepting the job offer? They just show up for the free stuff. How long would you keep doing it? It's not good business to keep investing in an endeavor that generates NO return.
Also, as someone who has to put in all the work, effort, time, and risk in securing a "first date," IF a woman actually shows up reasonably on time (no guarantee) then SHE should pay. This notion that women sacrifice more for a first date than men is BS. The expectation that the man should always pay clearly implies that women think their time and money are more important than the man's.
100% correct!
I only go on coffee dates if it's a first date.
And i don't mean Starbucks. Oh hell no!
We meet at the bank where the coffee is free!
Amazing breakdown and analogies, I love listening to you
This is an insightful channel! I love the ideas it explores!
Never take a woman to have dinner at first dates. YOu invite her to visite a zoo, a museum, fairy market, a gallery etc... at best something that does not cost lots of money and you can walk around with her...The location gives you free topics you can speak about and this way it is not a plain interrogation but you learn how she reacts on you. This will stick way more to her head as just a dinner.. ...
@@beowulf_of_wall_st Exactly. She will be way more natural, more as she is in her daily life as this is not such an under observation situation. That dinner dner or one drink thing can follow up when you got realy interested in each other.
I think he just made the argument why the women should pay on the first date and every date after that.
Interesting. Taraban, though he didn't say it, seemed to me he was describing a particular age range of men and women that were, 1 Actively seeking each other, 2 Attempting to, or making themselves marketable, 3 Regularly circulating about a location (your town or city), 4 Assumed that men are looking to invest or pay for a longterm relationship or marriage. Most of us know dating is a sales process or function to achieve a strategic goal: Prospecting, Contacting, Qualifying, Addressing Objections, Requalifying & Closing. Because this modern World has socially changed dramatically, standard or traditional assumptions are out the door. Number of divorces, how many children from how many men, financial position, attitude, age, compatible cultural-sexual-political views/opinions/positions all translate into value. We all know most women, even if they're fat/disgusting w/bad attitudes believe they're Amazing and Fabulous with a Jesus Level Vagina, and even though women will lip-service their belief in Equality, either they don't really believe it or they're just wrong. And this hypergamy tells us most women, especially if they're older than 35, will do a quick Lifestyle Check before agreeing to date #1: Appearance, residential location in the area, vehicle, employment because that's the initial hypergamy check. This is not how it used to be, and since many younger women have culturally agreed to promiscuity and think sex-work-webcamming is a smart way to make bigger money without men (translation: Emancipate themselves while charging/needing men's money, isn't that weird?), to me this means one (1) thing: If we're going out, you pay yours I'll pay mine because I don't know you, I don't trust you (especially if you're older than 35), you transport yourself to get to our meeting destination and because you're a feminist who believes in equality then this shouldn't be a problem. Otherwise, in these times, a man sets himself up to be taken advantage of, led on and manipulated while she's out doing whatever nuts-work today's women do. My opinion.
If you establish that your money/resources is worthless by giving it away for free on the first date, you'll keep doing so from that point forward. Objecting and requalifying afterward, when your starting point was free, is unlikely to produce an acceptable deal. Simping is poison to relationship.
@@georgedang449 Exactly. Anything of value isn't free, cheap or easy.
@bobdavis: whitespace is your friend. Don't abandon your friends.
I actually agree with you on this one dude, I dont believe in paying for women pay your own way and or don't pay at all because I'm not paying, i I'll let let a woman pay a couple of times maybe on the 3rd or 4th date then I'll see if she genuinely jot i don't date women who don't show interest in me at all maybe I've been show much interest i can do this but it is just what I do and it's my opinion because I don't approach these women because they are vile most of the time in to me ( in my opinion ) so i don't do any thing to go up to them but to attract them i guess but yeah I don't pay for them hntil later until I know she's mine ( the one ) but other than no i don't pay for them and I don't show other women interest unless they show me uintereet at all at all so yeah so yeah, period, period,,,,,,,,,.,.,.,.,.,.,.
You articulated the situation brilliantly.
I generally detest the idea of paying on a first date, it feels transactional. However, this is a pretty solid argument
The problem is that most women think they're the prize and they're the employers, it takes two to tango, we as men can move on up all we want but the women think they have a say so on how it goes in a relationship
Just keep putting shit out. You have a much needed insight on this platform.
I never paid on any of my first dates! It was always split. I only paid for dates once the relationship was well established. If I pay for something I'm going to want something in return. I don't agree with Dr Taraban when he says a date is like an interview, that's just BS for 99% of men. If you're Tom Cruise or Brad Pitt or George Clooney then yes, a date will be an interview and you'll be sure to have 2,000 eager and stunning women waiting to be 'interviewed', but if you are overweight, bespectacled John Doe who works at Dunder Mifflin as an accounts clerk or whatever, then she will always interview you - if you're even lucky to get that far!
It’s still an interview. It’s just that if you are the John Doe you describe,your company is essentially McDonald’s- a low wage job that the applicant may not want or even take seriously.
Indeed. If you pay for service not rendered, you will continue to do so to no end. In any marketplace, consumers do not like to suddenly pay for something that should be free. Once you've established that your money and resources are free on the first date, it ensures that anything further you give from that point forward, have no worth, and therefore cannot be used in subsequent value exchange.
Simping is poison to a relationship.
the point is to not be overweight John Doe, but to strive to become the best man she could possibly find, as said in 6:12, you need to work on your boat first
then it becomes an interview
that's the point. be better than average
Tanc that is the point.
What arrogance is it to think that you (the general you, not the specific) are good enough the way you are to get everything that you want. The compelling you is the one that gets the attention. As they should, no?
Get fit. Learn good conversation skills. Eat right. Exercise. Hygiene daily. Make male social groups. Get a career/trade. Become good at something. Build (metaphorically) yourself a home.
There are tons of women that only go on dates to get free food and drinks. I would strongly advise against paying on the first date.
Better to gage genuine interest by inviting her for something free or cheap. If she actually is interested, that won't put her off and she'll agree to it. If she's only looking for free sh*t she'll decline and you've lost nothing.
@@docsavage8640 I agree. IMO, if she is interested in you a coffee date doesn’t matter since she wants to spend time with you. If she declines and wants a “real” date, then she is interested in your money. That’s how I see it.
This is quite a U.S. thing
Since you are the one asking her out, you should always pay. If you don't want to spend money, just invite her to a walk at the park or something cheap like an icecream.
You guys need to get off the dating apps. The women there don’t take men seriously so it’s no point.
Good analogy and tip!
This is a great advice for top 10% of guys, it’s coffee dates and park walks for the rest of us
The job analogy does work. ... There are many people who only show up in order to meet the qualifications for an unemployment check or to polish their interviewing skills for the job they actually want.
"Paying allows you to walk away without any complications. It shows you value your time more than your money, and that you don't owe her a damned thing." You know what else does? Just walking away and paying for only what you bought for yourself. Any "complications" are only going to be an issue with people who expect the man to pay in the first place. Hell, she'd be doing you a favor by pointing out you didn't pay and warding away women who are only there for free shit.
Exactly bro -
Why did you even invite her? you should eat with yourself....
I agree. U don't owe her anything. She is free to leave too...Does she have to pay to leave?
I don't pay for women, therefore I don't go on a first date to a place where you need to pay to avoid conflict.
Great metaphor for dating. I enjoy your authentic and To the point work.
you fookin nailed it mate
You're the man Orion
Strange take. Do companies fly out random people? No they don’t. Why pay on the first date with random people? Sure if you knew the girl for a while and there was a mutual intrest.
My arguments are always easier to refute when they're changed.
I agree 100% with this. Drop a couple of $20’s and get up. I did it a number of times and as I get older, I truly care less about being “polite”.
Great breakdown
Just when I thought I'd already met the best psychologists (JP, Alexander Grace), I come across your channel. Your explanations in every video I've watched are very clear and make complete sense.
Solid analysis.
Imo (as a woman), I would like to share the bill. You say that paying gives you the right to walk away, and I agree. But it also means that if the woman wants to walk away, she's made someone maybe nice waste time and money on her. Even if the man says 'okay, good luck' after saying I'm not interested, I will feel guilty. Because I don't think we should take advantage of the other while learning about each other. I would let the man pay once we've met a couple of time, if I think this man is actually an interesting option.
This girl wanted to split it with me, we did not really have the exclusive talk and she knew I did not trust her which was based on valid information. I think that is only fair in this modern world. If you really want the traditional treatment I expect her to be more traditional, otherwise I just appreciate it if they show they are not just in it for the money treatment.
NO SHARING 😂😂😂
It’s simpler than that. It’s called “Pay for your own shit” ❤
And I agree. Women should 😂❤
@@Macheako yeah, share if the prices of the meals are similar or pay your own if it's different, you get the idea. Just, the woman isn't here for a free meal. And if one offers a meal to the other, it's truly because he/she wants to, after a certain attachment was formed.
Yeah, I once went out on a date with an American woman (I'm not American), she was the one who invited me out. I agreed to go to a group thing, she changed the plans to only be me and her. I didn't really want to go with just her, but I had already said I was available, so I went anyway. Didn't have any intentions of doing anything with her, so my stance was very neutral the whole time. At the end of the date, she was telling me that she had no cash withdrawn (and the place only accepted cash, no card). She knew that beforehand, as she saw me having to go out of the place to withdraw money as well. I ended up paying for the whole thing, which was a bit expensive, (even though I could easily afford it), because it was more than just food (also entertainment stuff). My pain was that I had no desire of even going out with her in the first place, I simply went just out of courtesy at tat point. Also, I knew for a fact I wasn't going to see her ever again in my life. She basically just got a free night out. That's why women like men to pay. Because they lose nothing when they walk away. Even in this case where I was the one walking away, I felt like I lost. lol
That's exactly what you are supposed to do. Walk away instead of hiding behavior. I would expect most men to appreciate the honesty and favor that to manipulation. Also your date isn't responsible for your emotions. They don't make you feel the guilt lol
Sufficient optionality scares the hell out of the employees, that motivates fear, thus causes respect. Sufficient optionality elevates self respect, and dignity. In case an employee acts cocky and arrogant the employer would simply replace the employee and waste no time finding another.
Not at all. They’re not going to change their attitude towards men that they aren’t sexually attracted to. And why should they?
A man with options is an attractive man. Women want what other women want.
@@psychacks No. A physically attractive man is an attractive man. Women do not want what other women want. They compete with other women only for the chase, but not for the man. Men compete for the chase as well. It’s about power and self worth. Not the man.
@@nicolem5626 what he saying applies after guy is pretty, trustworhy, has socioeconomic strength (including apparent segsual pshcyal ability, because being able to have better quality sperm and larger quantity of sperm to outcompete other mens sperm in woman to spread genetics as natural genetic selection designed humans to do, is socially influential, and to woman it by nature simply seems like natural segsual attraction even if shes not thinking of how these things are working) . him apprently having lot of options , makes her feel hes proabbly effective at satisfying her because otehr women think so too, its especiall female that thnink like this because they are less impuslive, or in otehr words, more fearful, whch is why they overthink and rely on following others thinking instead of being rational
@@psychacks chekc out my comment in this small comments section thread in response to the original comment, i think i expalin it better for him , but when you give that expalanatuon just dont use words like "women are not rational" because you know how deceived goyim are
Making time to meet up with _her_ by turning down others is *my* way of communicating me valuing her! No need to pay for anything - but if i do, you can take this as a sincere "let's date again!". I never had issues with leaving, paying just for me.
You made a few other very interesting points though, that will keep me thinking. thx 🙏🏻
Great video.
It is a really nice content, thanks!
Take em' for a walk in the park. You can learn a lot more about a woman from walking and talking side-by-side than by sitting and talking side-by-side.
hard to talk when chewing for 60 minutes during a 90 minute date.
04:20 So far, you've made a strong case for "dating" escorts!
Job analogy is great and paying allows you to walk away is a sound argument.
However, in real life, a reject application, who may 'feel' slighted or entitled, can't do anything to said company
However, in modern dating, she's encouraged/enpowered to slander, false rap3 accuse you or even slander you on social media for more cash and prizes and may even crocodile tears some simps and the government to punish you!!
The "paying" isn't the most important point that Orion raises. It is in fact the "....I've got a vacant position in my life... ...that I'm interviewing for" point. Plus the preconditional male requirement of "One needs to have an emotionally compelling lifestyle". All fundamental good knowledge and comprehension. Thanks indeed.
Díky!
"You don't seem to be interested. Give me your food and get the fuck out of my face."
I like that advice.
I don’t pay for dates, than again there is no point of having relationships anymore
What a strange analogy ... Don't pay for a womans attention! I never go on a first date where I have to pay. Just go on a walk and have a great time.
This channel offers a lot of valid advice and psychological insights. Just some videos - in my eyes - appear to address those men who see themselves always in fights with women, always afraid to be taken advantage of. Yes, there is more than pure love and chivalry involved when a prospective couple meets for the first time. Framing the whole situation as a business case, however, seems a bit uncalled for. Actually, to my mind, in most situations it can be rather easy. If you really do not connect with each other on a first date, acknowledge that freely and without any anger, thank her for her time and suggest to split the bill.
If you have a feeling that the date went particularly well and that more dates are to come, you can ask, if she lets you pay for the first coffee/dinner. If she is a good person she will allow for it and reprociate the next time around. (If that never really happens and she earns good money too, you might want to bring this up) It doesn't have to be a fight, it doesn't have to be bare knuckled hard negotiation. Just talk to your date and tell her how you feel about the situation.
I agree with you because I see your point and saw it myself as well. Orion puts a lot of faith into treating dating like job interview, buying a car, etc. a materialistic view. But my experience with women I've been (and am) closest to - if I have to treat a relationship like that, then it's not worth it. There is enough women who go past and beyond mindset where I count every thing a woman does for me or I do for her, relationship based on mutual trust, respect and kindness, without materialistic and egotic worry - am I getting enough STUFF from you? Are you getting TOO MUCH STUFF from me? Sorry but, if I am approaching a relationship solely or even majorly with this kind of mindset, then I'm doing something wrong, or I'm with a wrong person, but one thing is sure - I am not a happy human.
Kudos on this comment. As a woman I’m always happy to pay for a first date. If I get the sense that he’s paranoid of being taken advantage of, it’s a red flag. You see this with men who have Venus opposite or square their Pluto, and this indicates a man who has an issue with women in his psyche that needs to be worked out. If he doesn’t, guess what, he’ll keep attracting exactly that type of women. Check your birth chart fellas, and do your shadow work. Everyone is YOU, pushed out.
this is not good advice at all, because it doesnt address the main issue here that men complain: the money that they spend on a date. If this is a simple coffee, men paying for a coffee is not even an issue. The REAL issue is when a date is something more expensive like a lunch, brunch or a dinner. This is why men should NEVER have meal dates before sex happens. And there you go, problem solved.
Danke!
I recently found your channel and I love the way you describe things. Thanks! Also, I'm having some success attracting beautiful women.
Thanks!
This is the best video you have ever made! It would be ideal for young men just starting out. As a retired man I have witnessed many a man still trying to cater to a lazy, unproductive wife.
got no problem to cater for a lazy , unproductive wife as long as she shows me much love and caring.😂
God level analogy 🤯
The best type of date is to share a fun activity of the man's choice, such as workouts, bowling, dancing and so on. That positions the man as the leader, gets the woman to participate and would always be more fun than just food or entertainment. This also exposes the wrong type of woman. A woman who doesn't genuinely like the man won't want to participate and have fun. A food or entertainment date requires no effort or participation from the woman, especially if the man is paying for it. She'll assume that he has a subservient, cuck mentality, because he's paying her just to share her company.
Makes a lot of sense!!
Why not something that both parties are into, to enjoy as two equally worth and fun humans? Just a thought.
Indeed, even offering a date of a sunny afternoon walk in the park is perfectly reasonable.
@@davidwhyman1189 not in my book. Going for a walk is boring and doesn't count as a fun activity. For example, she'd ghost you for me if I took her salsa dancing.
@@ColdSteel-oi3um She likes nature.
Thank you so much
This argument makes sense to me.
It's right in line with my view that the dating market and the job market are very similar.
I heard that what many people do is they will meet for a coffee or a drink at the bar, and if they like each other, they'll proceed to have a longer evening with a dinner etc. It makes a lot more sense than agreeing to a full dinner date before to even seeing each other. What if you discover in the first 10 minutes that don't like each other enough to spend the next 2 hours in a conversation?
Also, if the guy didn't like the girl all that much, and is not looking for a repeat date with her, there is no harm if he only pays for himself. Paying for the girl is basically saying "I really enjoyed your company and want to continue to get to know you".
I am totally agree with it
Thanks alot
Good video!! Here are my thoughts. Your first date should never be a restaurant. Your first date should always be like a little coffee shop and make sure to pay for her drink which is very cheap around 3 to 5 dollars. So in this way, you’re not only paying for the deck it’s not breaking your bank and you can actually decide if you want to continue at a very affordable price . (If you can’t even afford 3 to 5 dollars, you shouldn’t even be dating in the first place )if you decide to pursue then your next date could be like a little potluck in a park which is still a very affordable way to have a nice date. In fact, these experience will actually be much more better than having a dating inside a restaurant. Now you will have spent enough time with her to decide if you want to take it to the next level then you can actually take her to a really nice restaurant and pay for it by this time but you and her are really interested with each other. So after this, the dinner date, if you’re lucky, you might get some action in the bedroom.😉
All the three dates you are in charge of planning everything which will make her to like it even more since you’re taking the lead. Also, all this only applies when you have your own shit together. If you just working minimum wage, don’t even think about dating anybody.
Depends on how well you know the woman. She has to show her worth (character) before you invest in her beyond the basics. Anyone who is demanding more than that is interested in your resources and not in you.
@@beowulf_of_wall_st exactly! , I did the same. I’m got married last year
Great
I pay for the first date and I show my lifestyle with fancy clothing or nice cars it’s called zahavian signal
Men paid for dates because women didnt work as you said. Thats literally all there is, maybe you arent dating currently. Now sure its nice when the girl really likes you and you can just take her to a park or a musueum.
But if she doesnt like you that much yet and wants you to prove yourself, you have to spend $300+ for a singlular date!? 10 first dates + maybe some second dates a year would end up costing you 6k+. How is wasting 6k in my best interest as a man?
Your job analogy is very fringe, most people dont work careers, so most jobs arent willing to do that much to hire someone.
However most guys arent rich and most women do work.
His job analogy doesn't happen in real life, even for senior management positions. Companies only fly people in for interview, all expenses paid, under extreme and fleeting circumstances. For example, during early days of covid, New York City hospitals were flying in nurses from Florida, all expenses paid including hotel rooms, while paying them upward of $200/hr, because local nurses were dying and the newcomers take up the offers at risk of death. Those hospitals were in no position to not hire any warm body with a valid license. Companies do not go that far just to walk away.
Paying is a sign of desperation, like the thirsty men today. Those simps pay to try to make women stay, not to walk away from them.
@@georgedang449 Rich Ceos would get huge packages just for the chance to work at some companies. This is the same way women would fly to Korea and spend thousands for a chance to get sweat on by some kpop star.
Have been viewing a lot of your content recently must say I like it. Not sure if you have already done a video about ”three captain challenges” you refer to in the video, would love to see a more detailed explanation on that. How exactly would one develop a more emotional compelling life? Great video as always!!!
I will have to fully consider this but the idea of the guiltless dump is a major plus.
guilt is for the weak.
When anyone pays, it's a GIFT.
You don't expect anything in return for a gift - at any time.
Do you go around giving gifts to complete strangers all that often?
@@eljay5009 .. No, but if I did, why would it be yours or anyone else's business??
@@jimlong2469 It wouldn’t - but by the same token nor would I expect to be told I wasn’t a “real man” or I was “cheap” if I didn’t follow suit.
But there are plenty of comments along those lines.
In the "modern dating era" I look at dating and marriage as gifts to women that actually deserve it, we can't view relationships in a 20th century way of thinking anymore because the "rules" have changed and if we set the standard for men, but don't hold women to the standard then that's were the issues will continue to get worse. Even tho I don't always agree with your assessments, your commentary is definitely an asset.
This is good framing.
this makes sense for a man with options and has filtered out a lot of the dregs. Both of which are really hard as womens standards/demands are not within reality.