Klaus Heinz: Why do speakers sound different when they measure the same? - with HEDD Audio
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- čas přidán 7. 08. 2024
- ►► Correctly set up your speakers, no matter what room you're in. Free workshop → www.acousticsinsider.com/phan...
Get your own HEDD speakers here to support Jesco and Acoustics Insider → hedd.link/MK2JescoYT **
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A quick thought experiment:
Say you compare two speaker systems that go down to around 40Hz.
One is your typical 2-way with a 6" driver.
The other is a massive old-school 4-way system with double 18" drive units, BUT high-pass filtered to 40Hz as well.
Do you think they'll sound the same?
If designed correctly, they'll both have a (more or less) flat frequency response.
And if you play both at the same volume, shouldn't that give you the same sound?
Even if you've never heard a system like the second one, I'm sure you can imagine that the answer is a big, hard:
HECK NO. Not even close.
But why is that?
How can speaker systems sound so different when they largely measure the same?
To answer this question, I've invited Klaus Heinz, former CEO of HEDD Audio and arguably the world's leading expert on Air Motion Transformers, to join me in conversation.
I think we hit the nail squarely on the head in explaining just how limited measurement data actually is when trying to understand how a speaker sounds.
Or in other words: If you've ever wondered how measurements differ from what you're hearing, this video is for you.
Timecodes:
00:00 - Acoustics Insider and HEDD Audio
00:48 - Klaus Heinz: Why do speakers sound different when they measure the same?
03:04 - How has 55 years of playing the piano affected your professional work?
10:45 - Catching the loudspeaker bug in divided Berlin.
13:33 - The problems with the original Air Motion Transformer (Oskar Heil)
18:30 - The original amplifier invention predating the Air Motion Transformer
20:51 - Oskar Heil invented the dome tweeter and FET transistor before anyone else
22:47 - Klaus Heinz’ improvements for the Air Motion Transformer
24:12 - Measurements cannot capture the complexity of a real sound field
32:21 - A linear response is not the gold standard
34:04 - Why measuring dynamics is so difficult
37:00 - Things we can measure, but are not part of the typical data set
38:53 - Speaker design goals are not clearly defined
40:51 - Can we hear phase shift in loudspeakers?
46:38 - Looking 10 years into the future of speaker design
50:02 - Wrapping up my discussion with Klaus Heinz of HEDD Audio
51:04 - Setting up your speakers correctly, no matter what room you’re in
- HEDD Audio - What is HEDD Audio? -
Heinz Electrodynamic Design (HEDD) is a Berlin-based creator of cutting edge loudspeaker and headphone solutions. Founded in 2015 by physicist Heinz Klaus and his son, Musicologist Dr. Frederik Knop, HEDD products include studio monitors, subwoofers, and main speakers - as well as the signature HEDDphone®. Producers, sound engineers, recording artists, and high-end enthusiasts worldwide seek out HEDD for use in music production, mastering, and home HiFi. HEDD’s mission has been to build products aiming for complete accuracy and outstanding signal fidelity in Germany, that can accommodate a diverse range of sounds and eclectic spectrum of musical tastes.
- HEDD Audio & Acoustics Insider - What is it about? -
Welcome to this video series in collaboration with HEDD Audio! In this series I'm going deep into different aspects of studio speakers and subwoofers to show you how they work, how to use them in your home studio, and the pros and cons of different types of speaker designs. I'll be using acoustic measurements with Room EQ Wizard (REW) and Rational Acoustics SMAART, and I'll talk to experts, specialist and speaker designers. To do that I am partnering with HEDD Audio, which gives me the opportunity to go into a depth and breadth that I wouldn't be able to do on my own. I use HEDD Type20 MK2 speakers every day myself in my own studio and I couldn't be happier with how they perform. Otherwise I wouldn't have agreed to this partnership. I'm very excited to go on this deep dive with you and to show you how you can get the most out of your room and speakers.
Related blog post on Acoustics Insider:
www.acousticsinsider.com/blog...
Darko Audio Interviews with Klaus Heinz:
• Klaus Heinz talks HEDD...
• HEDD Audio factory tou...
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This means that for any successful sale generated through this link, a small provision is paid out without any extra cost to you. Of course feel free to buy the products anywhere else as well. The link is merely a proposition to have a closer look at the product. :)
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Get your own HEDD speakers here to support Jesco and Acoustics Insider → hedd.link/MK2JescoYT ** - Zábava
Jesco! This is such a GREAT video. And thank you for the shout out. 👍🏻
Great speaker designer, a true polymath of electronics, acoustics and engineering
That was realy extreme interessting in many ways. Klaus Heinz is a scientist, who has learned to be suspicious about what measurement data can tell us and what it is good for as well as the limitations. I worked on auditive perception of the human ear and cortical recognition of speech, regarding the effects of latency and phase shifts of the acoustic signal. The outcome for me was to admit, that we do not know yet the measurable parameters to objectify the complexity of the signal and which of these parameters are crucial for language recognition. It seems to be a very similar problem like searching for valid parameters to measure the quality of the acoustic reproduction of a speaker system. It was very impressive to me to listen to Klaus as a scientist telling that all these measurements do NOT give the answer, the answer can not be objactive up to now. Thank you very much!
Best regards from
Robert
Lovely to have an opportunity to listen to an eloquent expert.
No two speakers actually measure alike *if* the measurement procedures and/or gear are comprehensive enough. Even two speakers from the same maker with consecutive serial numbers can measure a bit differently if the procedures and test equipment are up to snuff -- this is especially true of the "entry-level" stuff found on sale at big box stores.
True, they are mechanical things after all. Even if they measure alike on certain specs, they are probably complete different on other things.
@@limitlesssky3050 -- Well, "completely different" is an overstatement IMO. The differences between various examples of the same make and model speaker tend to be very minor and are seldom audible.
Indeed, one and a half minute in he explains a phenomenon that can be observed in compression measurements.
Fascinating discussion and not a single flowery audiophool description of sound in the entire video, well done Jesco, really enjoyed this one.
🙏
I´m loving this pratical series!! Keep it up Jesco!
i love that you took this question - ive been thinking about this for years
Thank-you so much for this interview and to Mr. Darko for bringing it to my attention via his community posting. I am enlightened.
Fascinating guest. Nice set-up with his experience playing organ and piano. Many thanks. to him for giving his time
Just ordered a set of HEDD studio monitors and sub, based on the philosophies Klaus has described what makes a good speaker and how he builds them. From playing around with DIY, it is clear to me he really knows his stuff and the company is driven to deliver the best sound for the money and all the other stuff second.
The Klaus. The Heinz. The Legend.
wow thank you for this content and this rich conversation/interview! Much love from morocco
Great discussion. Thank you!
Just bought the HEDD headphones. Incredible sound resolution and retrieval. A true reveal of sound with authority.
Good stuff! Please consider doing more interviews, lots of interesting audio people in Berlin to talk to! Many good videos on your channel, thank you very much and keep up the good work!
Couldn't agree more!
Whilst criticising the limits of a static microphone one must always remember that many great concerts were captured with a static single microphone.
I seriously LOVED his very last comment - "All of you out there... do something about it.". But you know, he is right. There needs to be a complete reinvention of the "Speaker"... which has been my belief for quite some time now / 20+ years... and I am (we all are) still waiting.
Maybe it would be a good idea to put these kind of interviews on spotify too. I, for example, have to drive around a bit during the day and it would be awesome to be able to listen to these kind of hour long interviews without having to consume all my mobile data on a youtube video
sooo good!! Thank you!! for this video!!
Really enjoyable to listen to a master engineer discuss his trade!
Very interesting. Thank you
Thanks for asking the question about the 6” driver vs the 12” driver!
As a musician, engineer, and acoustic product developer, I consider the answer to the last question & Mr.Heinz's answer will be limited by our current recording method and workflow of audio processing, which is heavily based on our understanding of sound capturing and reproduction basic rules. We might need to make some groundbreaking changes to our understandings, create something brand new for measuring and capturing, then we can make a big step forward in the physics of speakers for example efficiency.
Nice to get some background story.
Cheers,, 🍻🍻😎👍👍
Even if 2 speakers measure the same anaechoicly, they will sound very different even in the same room... not to mention even 2 different pieces of hedd type 07(for example) will measure a little different.
Hi! Thank you for the great video. I'm in love with those monitor stands, but I can't find them. What brand and model are they?
Excellent
Jesco - thank you for facillitating this wonderful discussion that has filled in many gaps in my understanding of loudspeaker phenomena. One point I still don't quite grasp: regarding how ours ears hear, Mr. Heinz mentions a couple times "...by squaring the signal, phase information is lost" and goes on to say "...and yet something else happens that makes us sensitive to phase response." So my questions are, what's the meaning of the statement that our ear squares the signal, and what's the mechanism, which he says is mathematical, by which that happens?
dolby atmos will be funny for the speaker industry. a linearized atmos setup would be nice
I enjoyed the discussion. The only question which I had after listening to the discussion is, If the microphone cannot represent acoustic energy in a room, then how do we expect loudspeakers to recreate it? That said, a recording studio uses a mic to record music later to be played back through speakers.
Studios are very specialized treated rooms that usually dampen out room acoustic energy on purpose. So the fact that it's not transmitted by a microphone is what they want. Agree though with what you are saying that a microphone then doesn't really represent true sound. Always felt this way myself.
Jesco, it would really be great if you could provide some examples of music tracks/recordings where a phase shift provides a clearly audible effect? A realistic phase shift could for instance come from a Linkwitz Riley 4th order crossover at 100-2000 Hz.
Hey
i m in to new room the avilable space is
A :: 15x21x10 WxLxH
B::: 16x21x10
C:::: 17x21x10
Which one is good
And there is no window etc only one door
Room is for theater and stereo
Bus most of time for stereo
i have tannoy arden legacy speaker
I'm just wondering if in the future or even now there is such a thing as a music streaming deck that outputs all the different instrumental sounds in an individual way like the drums go to one driver only the vocals go into another driver only and so on. wouldn't that be best for sound quality and separation and put less stress on each driver... Wouldn't that be a better way for a speaker to reproduce sound. When we listen to a live band the music doesn't come from an one point source right .. Mr Heinz talks about the progress in speaker development in material's which might be true . But wouldn't it make more sense if progress come more like technology and the way audio is delivered to your speakers... For sure speakers have developed a lot in the lost 20 years or so , But the method of delivery in sound seems like it was the biggest leap in sound quality ... There was tape in the past then CDs come along and changed the game and so on.... Just an idea ... Great video
that's what we do, using the frequency ranges, though, of course.
The good old bass driver at the bottom, mid woofer in the middle, tweeter at the top is still the closest we will get to a artist/band playing music live.
The tweeter mostly voices at the top to mimic the mouth. The mid woofer in the middle to mimic the guitar, drum etc at the artists stomach. And the bass woofer at the bottom to mimic the sub/subs on the floor of a live gig.
I think the title is a bit dishonest/clickbait-y since it clearly refers to that single 1m measurement and not a full measurement suite a la Klippel. But nevertheless an interesting discussion, thank you.
I have met Klaus several times at AES ans NAMM conventions. I imported the first consumer ADAM monitor into the USA in 2000. But, his current line of speakers are unlistanable as they are very harsh.
Someone from Audio Science Review should put this video in their forums. Maybe they can learn a thing or two from this video.
Please set up a gofundme to have this superior gentleman wreck the folks at ASR in a debate. I’ll be the first to donate 😉
No 2 speakers measure the SAME... they might have similar measurements but never the same...
Yeah the video description is misleading. It should say measure similar, instead of measure the same.
Whereas in the video near the start Jesco actually says - why do two different speakers that measure similarly not sound the same.
Clear picture...
damn!
If they sound different it's because you are not measuring right or measuring the right thing.
This kind of approach is misleading and at the beginning of your video you compare a big speaker with a lot of punch with a little speaker and say they measure the same... Of course they wouldn't measure the same in some variable.
Exactly. Frequency response characteristic is not the only variable that can be measured.
If two speakers sound different, you'd see it right away on distortion characteristic, which you can get from the same measurement you use to determine the frequency response.
It took me back! I had a pair of Heil AMT 1's and Magnapans. As far as the critiques on exactness. I sure Jessi wasn't talking about two speakers being exactly within +/- .05 db in 20 to 20K. I've listened to some killer monitors in my life. From the Mastering Lab to Abbey Road to audiophile systems to my studio's JBL 6328'S and Auretones. With my experience speakers with close to the same specs when compared large to small the large speakers do sound different. For better or for worse.. Do a comparison between throw high pass and low pass filters on them.
Bigger loudspeakers have inherent differences such as distortion performance and acoustical differences due to size of the drivers and cabinet. So not that unexpected
the question why meassuring dynamics is so dificult was not answered?
It's not. Typical way of measuring frequency response is from an impulse response. And impulse response is "dynamics". If you measured an impulse response of your audio chain at only one frequency, you'd get a visual representation of what could be called its dynamics.
@@tomkocur what would that visual representation be?
@@Jaburu impulse response graph (x = time, y = amplitude).
@@tomkocur the "speed" should certainly be visable as a "pre-ringing" before the spike. but you wont see how it behaves when volume changes (dynamics)
@@tomkocur i have an idea that dynamics is impulse response or waterfall graph, and spl combined. because db measurement is just loudness at a single point in time or an avg.
by spl i mean the measurement that reveals the effect of large cone area which effect are more impact.
Its hard to Quantify and Justify how great is youre Hearing if youre above 30S , theres no way you can Buy a great Eardrum and Cochlea, So for an AudioFool he will buy the expensive Speakers and Amp then Pretend "Saying I can still hear them.
Because they don't fucking measure the same. Sure, on axis anechoic response might be very similar, but I bet you'll see very clear differences in THD and compression measurements at higher SPLs.
I think the issue with measuring speakers by measuring frequencies is the fact that we need to average a series of results into one number. You can imagine a speaker that produces the signal perfectly at every point in time, which will produce the perfect measurement. But another speaker that is wrong all the time and doesn't quite keep up with the music can still produce a perfect measurement if the error just happens to be perfectly distributed across the different measurements.
I've often thought that the true difference in speakers is in the dynamics - in how they produce the transients. Because there is NO WAY that a speaker cone that is moving through air is going to be physically able to keep up all the time perfectly with a signal complex as music. Any speaker can keep up with a test tone, because it only needs to produce one frequency - the trick is being able to produce high and low frequencies and everything in between incredibly fast. Imagine making a knot in your shoelace slowly with unlimited time - anyone can do it - but if you need to make that knot in half a second, you'd have to be really skilled. In nature sound comes from a variety of resonating sources and instruments and voices, each of which produces the sound on their. A speaker is alone in trying recreate that cacophony of sounds that gets then represented as just a single voltage.
Speaker measurements are wayyyyyyyyy more complex than just a single frequency response, everything from dynamic capability to large signal performance (more than 1 watt) or multi tone performance can be measured. Measuring a speaker can be way more complex, all reviewers don’t do those measurements, some manufacturers do. It is really amazing what you can measure and simulate, more than most audiophiles know, search for klippel if you want to know more
@@skandiaart thanks mate! Really interesting- I need to dig into this more
Nice clickbait, but there's really no such thing as two (different) speakers that measure the same.
ooii
If youre hearing is not getting better you say it Loud that my speakers and Amplifier is a bit Expensive.(AudioFooL)
I really think it needs to be "voodoo and black magic." Just saying "voodoo" feels incomplete.