Speaker Decoupling: Why it’s so hit and miss (and when to still do it) - with HEDD Audio
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- čas přidán 22. 07. 2024
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I don't know about you, but whenever people get into lengthy arguments about speaker decoupling, I just want to leave the room.
It's such a pointless debate.
The physics is well known and it's not particularly complicated.
The only reason why there's so much confusion about this, is that manufacturers of studio speaker decoupling products do a TERRIBLE job at showing how they work.
Perhaps that's because physics isn't really on their side...?
What makes things worse for us home studio folks, is that decoupling in general is WAAAAAY overemphasized.
Even IF you have a coupling problem, the effect will be so small that you can't even detect it with our standard Room EQ Wizard measurements.
Can coupling cause deterioration of sound?
Sure!
But literally EVERYTHING else you do will be an order of magnitude more important and impactful.
And that leads me to my very practical advice on speaker decoupling in this week's video.
Let's put this to rest and move on to more important things.
Timecodes:
00:00 - Acoustics Insider and HEDD Audio
01:09 - Decoupling advice for home studios
01:50 - How important is decoupling your speakers?
02:52 - The one example where decoupling can matter
03:44 - My practical advice for speaker stands and decoupling
04:45 - What speaker decoupling is for
06:03 - Speaker decoupling needs to minimize speaker wobble
07:13 - The physics behind speaker decoupling doesn’t work for us
08:56 - Why off-the-shelf decoupling solutions aren’t convincing
09:55 - How to properly decouple home studio speakers
11:16 - How to decouple speakers in the home studio
12:21 - How to correctly set up your speakers, no matter what room you’re in
- HEDD Audio - What is HEDD Audio? -
Heinz Electrodynamic Design (HEDD) is a Berlin-based creator of cutting edge loudspeaker and headphone solutions. Founded in 2015 by physicist Heinz Klaus and his son, Musicologist Dr. Frederik Knop, HEDD products include studio monitors, subwoofers, and main speakers - as well as the signature HEDDphone®. Producers, sound engineers, recording artists, and high-end enthusiasts worldwide seek out HEDD for use in music production, mastering, and home HiFi. HEDD’s mission has been to build products aiming for complete accuracy and outstanding signal fidelity in Germany, that can accommodate a diverse range of sounds and eclectic spectrum of musical tastes.
- HEDD Audio & Acoustics Insider - What is it about? -
Welcome to this video series in collaboration with HEDD Audio! In this series I'm going deep into different aspects of studio speakers and subwoofers to show you how they work, how to use them in your home studio, and the pros and cons of different types of speaker designs. I'll be using acoustic measurements with Room EQ Wizard (REW) and Rational Acoustics SMAART, and I'll talk to experts, specialist and speaker designers. To do that I am partnering with HEDD Audio, which gives me the opportunity to go into a depth and breadth that I wouldn't be able to do on my own. I use HEDD Type20 MK2 speakers every day myself in my own studio and I couldn't be happier with how they perform. Otherwise I wouldn't have agreed to this partnership. I'm very excited to go on this deep dive with you and to show you how you can get the most out of your room and speakers.
Related blog post on Acoustics Insider:
www.acousticsinsider.com/blog...
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Get your own HEDD speakers here to support Jesco and Acoustics Insider → hedd.link/MK2JescoYT ** - Zábava
there is a perfect decouple fix !!!!!! you helped me fix my huge bass problem!!!!!.....after watching this video carefully understanding the issue with wobble and vibrations I tried an experiment I haven't tried with prime acoustic recoil stabilizers. there meant to prevent speaker from wobbling back and fourth but I put them on ultimate support stands filled with sand and a tile plate on top then recoils./......lets just say for 3 years I was suffering with a null in bass and lots of speaker distortion trying thousands of acoustics tips to fix nulls and lack of forward bass ..(positioning ...decoupling..bass traps etc.. looks like I was the one case of severe decouple issue... I honestly feel like most people don't have this case but I was the unlucky one...thank god I figured this out....I need you acoustic insider to research and test this recoil stabilizers asap!!! mike in his book mixing secrets says without these you could be basically throwing speakers in trash !!.
Great video, if you are looking for that last 1% *after* you treated your room then you *may* want to consider decoupling. For anyone else, buy more bass traps!
To decouple my speakers I have:
Concrete slabs on the carpet/underlay
little pucks (about 8cm circumference) with a thin ring of sorbothane built into the ring and a tapered spike shoe
Thin spikes
The speakers themselves have sorbothane decoupling for the mid and the treble (nautilus by B&W)
The sub has an Auralex sub bass platform under it
None of it really made much difference! To put that into context, adding *one* extra 4x2ft bass trap makes a bigger measurable difference than all the faff with the spikes etc.
I used to work in a shop that sold all kinds of isolation platforms (hifi voodoo I called it) and I tried them all. Ethan Winer got it right when he pointed out that simply raising the speakers by a few inches has more of an impact on the sound you hear, due to a change in the comb filtering, than the isolation itself.
If raising the speakers a few inches results in a big change, then the off-axis response of the speaker is poor. I would suggest getting new speakers unless you enjoy listening to music with your head in a vise.
So, in short, Ethan Winer arrived at a conclusion based on a faulty assumption. Also, consider that it takes very little tilt to change the effective height at your listening position a few inches.
I would suggest that in your situation, you started with a very well designed speaker on a concrete floor. Had you a suspended floor, you might have found that decoupling had a major impact. Decoupling from my suspended floor had a huge effect. My speakers are constant directivity corner horns - even large changes in vertical off-axis have no effect.
@@joshua43214 perhaps he was referring to comb filtering from the floor, ceiling, desk and SBIR. Axial dispersion would only be part of the story.
I got the $30 wedges for my new desk speakers and I'm done. Glad you agree. (My monitor stands are expanded steel garbage cans flipped upside down, sitting on top of my stereo subwoofers. Works well enough for me.
Great video as usual. I have mine mounted on a pile of cinder blocks, with a thick rubber layer under the bottom of the whole thing.
that's what the PresentDayProduction guys suggested. Thinking of trying it. Did it make a difference?
@@hummarstraful Not sure if it made a difference because I bought the cinder blocks BEFORE I bought the monitors, i.e., they've never sat on anything else! I can tell you I haven't noticed/measured any unwanted coloration which is a good thing. In the past I used steel stands and I used to get ringing. Ideally try to affix the monitor to the concrete as best as you can, so that the mass of the stand and the mass of the monitor become one. My monitors are Genelec 8351B's which, with Genelec's Iso-Pod kit, are easy to secure. As the bass driver cones move back and forth, the metal pins prevent the monitor from moving but based on what Jesco has said in this video, if your monitors have a flat bottom (i.e. no need for a funky base like Genelecs), you could just place a thin sheet of tacky rubber between the monitor and the concrete block to couple the two whilst protecting the monitor from scratches. Low-frequencies will transfer through the rubber straight into the concrete. Use a thick piece of rubber, or some kind of rubber feet, between the floor and the bottom cinder block.
What about Isostands? The Sub Version says to let the subwoofer move (/"float") corresponding to the driver movement
The guys at the PresentDayProduction channel recommend just using cinder blocks underneath your monitors to stop the "wobble." They are heavy and cheap. I'm pretty frustrated with my home studio. I've spent a ton of money on treatment but still struggle with translation. Right now my monitor stands are the cheap $40 stands with the triangle feet and they are sitting on carpet. So lots of wobble. Thanks for the good info in the video. Lots of food for thought.
I just discovered a whole new world of speaker greatness. Decoupling with springs (Nobsound) underneath my speakers.
I noticed the speaker vibration has reduced a lot. But, my stands underneath are practically vibration free.
I find these springs on eBay and Amazon.
I have light speakers. Out of seven springs, I removed four.
Excellent! Thank you.
I have seen some videos on YT and read some testimonials about those desk decoupleing things, and even though I never hear any changes comparing before and after, they swear the sound is a lot better using them. I have Yamaha HS8 on Gravity stands, also with spikes set up, and.. I forgot about the decoupling thing, just as you mentioned :).
That's because 99.9% of all youtube videos are just poorly masked advertisements. Snake oil salesmen telling you that you have a problem, and that they have the solution, but hey "No money changed hands and my opinions are my own!" Yeah right.
There is no difference! You can remove your spikes too unless you need them for the height. Decoupling is pure BS products to make your wallet a bit thinner... Please read my comment above!
Thank goodness, someone finally stated the obvious. don't put soft stuff under your speakers!
If I bought a pair of those ones, ISOACOUSTICS In fact. Not the puck ones, I bought the Stand (Pair). Do you recommend that I sell it and buy normal stands?
My neighbor is complaining that my subwoofer is being felt inside his house when I'm listening to music. I have the Sonos/Sonance in-ceiling speakers and Sonos subwoofer. I live in a townhouse where I share the wall with the individual complaining about the base. Will decoupling the subwoofer help drastically reduce the base vibration getting to the neighbor's house?
Hi you can put a platform with 2 or 3 layers of tile then just use 3 emisphere of sylomer. Touch the surface to tell when the vibration is transmitted. It really works and its cheap.
doesn't work as well as the Townshend podiums
@@chrisrichards2827 Can you explain why ? If your skins can't feel the vibration how your ear can ? 1500 ? we are in the hifi voodoo teritory here, not science
I have the speakers on my desk (Kali lp-6 2nd wave) and they're transfering the vibration to my body when I rest my arms on the desk, and that ruins the music listening for me x_x
hope a pair of stands will be the correct tradeoff in my case x_x
Hello, fellow! Did you got the stands? Can you share the results? Thank you!
Which stands are being used in this video??
My Genelec monitors include decoupling bases that do not require additional mass to improve fidelity
That's the question I asked Hedd 20 Minutes ago. Thank you - I got a question now: If I a have a fully treated room, (28cm rockwool on every side), do I still need to worry about the rule that I have to have 1/3 distance to everything?
I bet he's gonna say to find the bass sweet spot, and set up everything around that spot. High frequencies will be dead, but low frequencies are still a potential problem.
@@fredygump5578 makes sense, ty
I made "massive overkill" massloaded speakerstands about 1 week ago, they are a mix of stands and diaphragmatic absorber inspirerad by diy plans from acustic feilds. They drop a lowend peak by -1DB. On top of them I have granit slabs with isoacoutics mini pucks under my genelec 8330 with built in rubber feet, the pucks thighen the mids and made my speakers them more full down low, just by balancing the pucks you hear a diffrents in lowend if they were of...
so, was it worth it?
Time(education), money(not much), free gymsesh, better sound and use of space. I'll say yes.
And pucks also!
I can say that with my Monitor Audio gx200 speakers (floorstanding speakers) it was a triumph. Per default on spikes (on concrete) and after i placed them on gaia III feet + the spiked carpet discs everything improved. Sound stage, bass and numerous other effects. Just nuts. It's not a studio, but livingroom. Added more improvements in the meantime like cables, position etc. It just amazes me how much more you can get from speakers when you spend some time with these things.
Few notes,
Investment isn't cheap and it was a bi**h to install and order the custom connectors. Importing them too to reduce price.
But, the sound was improved a LOT. Understandably, it will differ / situation. Regarding the weight issue you mentioned, the speakers are about at 75% of the max weight allowance of those feet.
Did you actually take any measurements to show an improvement?
Ethan Winer once had a back and fourth with another studio based youtuber called streaky, sparky or sketchy or something like that. Ethan pointed out that simply raising the speakers will cause a difference in comb filtering that would have more of an impact on the sound than the isolation itself.
Don’t mean to be a naysayer but I did take measurements (admittedly without the height compensation Ethan discussed with streakey) and I couldn’t see any measurable improvement.
@@NathanOakley1980 Sounds about right. I compared some isoacoustic pucks to cheapo sorbothane or washer pucks and couldn't tell the difference at all. The only differences I could identify were the appearance and price tag. Didn't bother taking measurements when my subjective experience indicated no improvement. If I subjectively sensed an improvement, I would take the time to measure but it didn't get that far.
Placebo, and please read my comment above... and stop wasting money on BS products, it is just an advice...
@@NathanOakley1980 Ethan Winer is one of a few sources one can trust. I suggest visiting his web page and learn, because it will for sure help a whole lot of people saving money.
@@TheMikaeler nope, not everything is placebo. This is physics. And yes i did measurements as well.
Your loss....
Thanks for another insightful video! One option hasn't been mentioned I think.... is mounting the speakers to the front wall a good idea? If mounted well, this solution might be better than using a stand because (especially the cheaper ones) will also wobble. Just a thought.
I think he didn't mention about this is because it is hardly applicable in a home studio. Few people afford and/or can make such a setup, like mountuing the monitors in the wall. But I'd be courious of his oppinion anyway, of course :).
@@arminfatol I'm not sure if he meant "in" the wall, or recessed. But, it's an interesting question. I posted above that the PresentDayProduction channel suggests using cinder blocks as they are cheap and have lots of mass. I may try it myself.
@@arminfatol I didn't mean mounting *into* the wall (called flush mounting if I'm correct), but mounting *on* the wall, like TV's can be mounted. Sorry for the confusion!
when we talked we also move too, so what is the problem if the speakers move just a tiny bit? Musical instruments move when played too. Damping and islation are quite basic things in engineering but why they are so hard to do when apply to audio? Maybe we can look at the problem in another angle. If we consider the whole enviroment as a big instrutment while the listeners are sitting inside it. Maybe we should do the opposite way to try to better couple and let the whole room including ourselves to "resonance" together. If we all move together, then relatively the speakers don't move. That maybe more natural and enjoyable.
was it not KEF just recently did a presentation(KEF NEW BEST SPEAKERS Reference & Blade META) about their new drivers and how the coax driver is decoupled from within, some spring inside the chassis so that vibration would not get to the cabinet, and even to the mounting rim. that sound like its going the wrong way. but i am no expert and if we have good reviewers it will show its merit.
i would rather have the driver have a solid connection to the cabinet and damp it and add more mass, the decouple to the floor or table. i have build my own speakers so i could do all that. but adding to existing speakers could be pretty cheap, cheaper speakers have better effect.
My Genelec speakers come with a tilt-stand-cum-isolation-balls, so I just use that. I can't feel vibrations transmitted to the stands, and they don't wobble either. Many other channels discuss isolation as being a problem, but I don't worry about it.
I liked your video based upon the intro alone...before watching it.
Do you think increasing the mass of the speaker to counteract the energy of the drivers can be achieved by fixing the speaker rigidly to the stand/shelf and those to floor or wall? like putting mountable speakers on a massive wooden shelf affixed to a wall?
I'm aware of the Issues with reflections such a solution introduces, so I guess my assumption is: Since the mass of such a system (speaker cabinet + stand/shelf + floor/wall) is much higher than that of the drivers, the "wobble" would practically be eliminated.
Okay! I stop thinking about decoupling....
Can you hang speakers from the ceiling instead of using floor stands?
Saw a video of a studio that used cement blocks and hard rubber pucks. Dont know how effective it was but makes sense
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A few reasons to why decouplers won't do anything to what is audible;
1. Speaker cabinets are built to NOT vibrate and if they do that so much (and I mean audible), then buy better speakers because those are BAD speakers, I would say faulty. But of course, then you would need to see the actual wood of your speakers move in/out just like a woofer for the vibration sounds to overcome the actual speaker audio... so... can you see the wood/cabinet pump out and then back in? There is a reason to why some people started building speakers with concrete instead of wood...to get rid of these super tiny vibrations... But even they understood that it was a stupid idea because first of all it didn't help one tiny bit regarding what was audible, and second... who could move them... This is just PURE LOGICAL THINKING... so... have people stopped using their brain?
2. The energy of ANY vibrations from a correctly built speaker is so super, super tiny compared to the actual sounds coming from the woofers/mids, and in order to be able to create such vibrations in a speaker cabinet so it becomes audible your ears will first fall off before you could reach ANY audible sounds from these vibrations, your speakers would not survive either.
3. You will hear rattle from objects in the room long before you would hear any vibration sounds caused by ANY speaker cabinet.
4. Put a glass of water on top of your speaker cabinet and pump up the volume... Do you believe the water in that glass will show vibrations? Give it a try...
5. What decouplers CAN do is to alter your sound image because the speakers might get better or worse placed regarding the height, and they look cool, ey? .... If the placement in height of the speakers are needed for anyone, take two similar books and wrap them in some cloth and put your speakers on the books, it is cheaper and will look good, with your own design too. But you could also buy speaker stands that are meant to help you, and I mean for angle and height for your speakers because... decoupling products that are aimed at cabinet vibrations are just PURE BS!
6. For a speaker to actually move from sound or vibrations it takes a whole lot of power... so please read the following, because... well... the SPL needed is so high that you would need to create some kind of sonic weapon... well... read this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion
I'm just saying....
I have my psi a21m speakers on zaor classic stands with isoacoustics gaia feet and Isoacoustics aperta iso stands and I must say, the difference between only the stand vs the decoupling was huge, if not massive. The biggest change was the sound feeling/sounding more direct and the stereo field has more depth!
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@@ruia.6729 Haha.... yes.... what the hell is wrong with people today.... haha....
Based on these ideas does this mean iso puks are worthless?
Yes, and it goes for all these products except for the "normal" stands that can help with placement regarding speaker height and the angle. If this is not your problem then do nothing to your speaker setup because... well, you're fine as it is. You won't improve the sound at all with these BS products. Take a nice trip instead.
IsoAcoustic pucks are good to use when a sub-woofer is sitting on a hardwood or ceramic floor.
I was watching this IsoAcoustics video about how their stands work, czcams.com/video/hC4wBi7T0Rw/video.html _(and some of the things he compared it to felt a bit out there)_ and it made me think of just what you said. Shouldn't the speaker stand as still as possible, so the drivers can produce the sound they're trying to make? Isn't there a reason why every speaker manufacturer tries to make their speakers heavy and stiff to make the drivers stay still?
The reason I was looking at this is cause I need to mount the speakers on desk clamp stands, unless I want to do something more drastic, but I'm not mixing audio, just listening to it, so how important is it? Probably not very, really, I just want them at the right height and position 😋 So I will check out the phantom speaker test to see what it is.
I feel like this video would do better if you changed the title to "How to make your Studio Speakers 10% better (and why you don't do it) - with HEDD Audio"
Just a feeling
(thank you for the info, by the way)
I think you don't know what you're talking about buddy I decoupled my speakers with the Townshend podiums and the difference was so great it was like I changed to more expensive electronics and there was another person here with me that heard the before and after and he just shook his head and he said I can't believe how much better it is so I think you better go back to school.
Whats hes saying there are things that cause bigger problems than coupling and those should be addressed first. Its what he meant by priority list no need to be rude.
@@Jupiter1423 well actually he's wrong because decoupling is the biggest improvement you can make to your system and I've got a very expensive system It's worth 72,000 and the difference before and after was so significant we both just looked at each other and said what the fuck just happened and go read the reviews on the Townshend podiums and everybody says the same thing.
@@chrisrichards2827 do you even know what this channels about? Hes offering advice for small diy budget level home studios not $72k systems. I think you just ended up on the wrong channel which makes sense considering you spent $72k w out first checking if you should decouple.
@@Jupiter1423 hey dumbass I've already coupled, I'm using the best out there the Townshend podiums maybe you should check them out they isolate down to three Hertz maybe you should find out what the vibration in the earth does to the sound of your system you don't know much do you lol
@@chrisrichards282772k and you still had issues. 😂
blu tack is good for decoupling, five blobs not for four.
Isoacoustic ftw.
sounds like that room has really bad acoustic
It has....