@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 hey there I just bought a 12 gauge shotgun made by pietta and I don't know is it can handle buckshot do you know if it would be safe? Any help is appreciated 🙏
Thanks Steve, hunted dove this year for the first time with my dads Brown Bess. Best time I’ve had hunting them in the last 20 years. Needed this info to improve upon for next year. Glad to see you making some videos again. Thank you.
The load you called the Starchief load is actually the Skychief load. Works awesome in my smooth bores for dense even patterns. All of my hunting buddys use it too for turkey and squirrel. It made dramatic differences versus other load combinations!
Hi Steve, I find your videos to be very well made, educational for the things I haven't heard of and reaffirming for those things I know about or methods that I already use. Very good information for new as well as more experienced shooters. I wondered about some of the things you explained in your videos before and now I have the answers. Thank you very much Steve! I have a way to remember which barrel to load first that works for me. It's pretty corny but here's the way I do it. I think, "If I load this gun RIGHT, then I'll have one barrel LEFT to load." I have to figure out how to keep the paper from blowing away when I want to shoot my patterns. I came up with a way to carry a bunch of pre-measured charges of powder and shot that might come in handy. I bought a bunch of little plastic tubes with push in caps and charge these up before I head out hunting. They fit nicely into a bandolier made for .410 sized shells. I carry a pocket full of Nitro cards and over-shot cards. I just use one over the powder and and an over-shot on top. I carry the caps in an inline capper on a string around my neck. Great for hunting doves when the action is fast. Thanks again for all the films you put up. They are great, Calvin
Awesome n very entertaining video, every muzzle loading shotgun shooter should watch this video !! I use a TC New Englander 12 ga single n love it, very fun to shoot !!!
I look for information on muzzleloader shotguns all the time and never find much. Very glad i found this channel. One thing I like to do for my 14 gauge is make tubes of shot. It looks like a small roll of quarters and i can have pre measured shot of different sizes and weights for whatever im using. I dont get terrible donuts usually but my patterns are usually rather wide, which I don't mind much at this point.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983I found it very helpful. But I currently load with two overshot cards over powder, wonder wad, shot, one overshot card. No donut but very wide, which I don't mind much because I keep it close for now. Next year I plan on getting tighter groups. If I can find actual 14 gauge components. The dealer told me it was 12 gauge, and I can't safely use the other wads that I had bought thousands of. 1873-75 manufactured drisket.
I found similar results using over shot cards between powder and shot. Large but very even patterns. Sounds like you will need to get a punch and make cards and wads to fit. Good luck with it,
Good info, and a few BP tips for loading my new Pedersoli trap gun, at this point in time my results are mediocre. Will go the patterning board and a few load combo's, thanks for the tip's and the informative video.. Richard from Canada.
i don't think your explanations were boring , people that are long time black powder shooters , will fully appreciate your indept explanations . i agree with v.m. starr , that's why i always carry more than i need . ram rods ,spare nipples , barrel worms , barrels jags , and wads . i use a dram/ounce dippers and mimic the charge loads from shotgun boxes . i've seen ramrods end up in the drink , when a person fails to take account of air pressure in the barrel while loading . i some time carry marked preloaded paper cartridges . powder , nitro card , wads , then overshot card , then shot , then finally shot. i carry them in watertight pvc tubes . my cheap cva double has brought down geese, ducks , pheasant , snipe , quail , and dove . heavier loads for rabbit and squirrel. patched .690 roundballs with a normal slug powder , will bring down deer.
I have a 20 gauge Chief's Grade trade gun. I use the same wad combination in it as my double barrel shotgun and get good patterns. I have a turkey load that is impressive, need to do a video on that. Good luck with your trade gun, they are fun.
I hope to go, but my schedule is very up in the air. Perhaps as the time gets closer I will know. I really enjoyed it last March and it looks to be even better this time.
What a great video. I have been shooting BP muzzle loading shogun over fifty years in competition and in hunting too. You have described virtually the same as me, but the only difference is I use an once and a quatre volume for volume. There is one thing I'd like you NOT to do and that is using the palm of your hand to push the ram rod down, either hold its side or use a range rod with a ball on the end. I was at a MLAIC world champs and saw a ram rod go through a man's hand because there was an ember still in the barrel and it went off. Great job with the video and happy hunting.
Well I haven't seen you for a while it's good to see you back especially showing your 12 gauge shotgun loading. I have a 1905 and the Name Escapes me but I do know it was made in New York with a Damascus Barrel and I was told to use only black powder in it. Well that's what I use in it now I can use shotgun shells but I can also reload down the barrel it just takes a little longer because I have to take the primers out of the shells that I have cut off and just put another primer in there and then load it the same way you just did. I haven't had a chance to ask anyone but it seems to me that if it's a Damascus Barrel I should be able to shoot conventional shells but I haven't had a chance to ask anyone I'm hoping you'll be able to answer this for me. Anyway I love my old shotgun it shoots black powder just as good and I can keep loading shells or if I want to I can load down the barrel. I wish there was a way to convert it to using nipples but I don't know that they make anything to do that. Thanks for the video I'm certainly glad you showed the double barrel loading. Keep ye powder dry!
With the old Damascus barrels only use black powder. You can reload those shells with black powder. The smokeless powders create too much pressure for the Damascus barrels. Plenty of cowboy shooters are loading shells and cartridges with black powder. That load data is available. Thanks for watching.
On this, my first encounter with your content, I have both liked and subscribed; and, my comment/inquiry follows. I am ashamed to admit why I found your channel and this video. However, the truth is that during a time of severe and prolonged crises I neglected not just one, but two muzzle-loading rifles. The first was a Thompson Center Renegade in .50 caliber. In order to make only the second elk hunt since the life-changing events in the mid-to-late 1980's, I purchased the second rifle, a CVA Optima, also in .50 caliber, in 2018 under the mistaken impression that it had a stainless steel barrel. I did not fire the hunting load in that barrel for more than a year, only to subsequently discover that "stainless steel" was no more than a coating which the powder--I honestly can't recall whether it was Goex FFF or Pyrodex RS--found the material quite ameanable to pitting. I do not want to retain, nor do I wish to sell, firearms in such a deplorable state. Thus, I am considering having the barrels of both rifles bored out to function as smooth-bore muskets/shotguns. Wondering what type of over-shot wadding might prevent "doughnut patterns" prompted my online search term "best way to load muzzle-loading shotgun for good patterns." Thus, I arrived at your comprehensive and well-presented discussion of the topic! Sir, are you aware of, and would you care to recommend, anyone who offers such machining to convert my rifle barrels to smooth bore? Do any of them also produce a bore that will accept modern, screw-in choke tubes?
I don't know anyone personally but there are gunsmiths who can fresh out a barrel to a larger caliber rifled bore or a smooth bore. Screw in chokes can also be installed if the barrel wall is thick enough. I don't know anyone I could recommend, but some Google search will likely find them. Thanks for your comments and good luck with your guns.
good video, one idea, to save double charging, mark the ramrod with a red tape, so if the tape is seen, STOP, the rod hasn't gone down enough, due to too much powder in the gun.
I’m new to muzzle loading shotguns and found this video extremely helpful, so thanks. I find from reading V.M. Starr that guys of old sometimes did a lot of shooting afield and, I get the impression, not so much shooting at a range. It’s also my impression that most guys today do a lot of range shooting and not as much afield. I’m talking rounds expended here. I’m totally with you about patterning your loads but I was wondering your impressions on field experience versus range experience when it comes to black powder and its lethality and effectiveness? It also strikes me that black powder shotgunning is superior to smokeless in that loads can be customized on the spot without sacrificing much velocity or range at all due to the nature of smoothbores in general, this not being the case with blackpowder rifles versus smokeless cartridges. Just some musings that you may have covered before and if so if you could direct me to that video I’d love to hear your comments. And one last thing; when I think of loading brass shotshells with blackpowder for my modern side by side, I think of it as virtually the same as muzzle loading a black powder gun with the only difference being the thin wall of brass of the case. Am I missing something in that thinking that I should be taking into consideration when working up loads?
Black powder shotguns are about 100 to 200 fps slower than modern shotshells. I can discern no difference in lethality on game or the effectiveness at breaking clay targets. Field shooting vs range shooting? I do a lot of both. I believe skeet shooting makes me a better shot on birds. I understand the difference between "old guy" thinking and "young guy" thinking when it involves shooting. My older relatives were in the field when game was plentiful and limits were generous. They could shoot birds until their skills were well honed. Today we have short seasons, smaller bag limits, and fewer birds to shoot at. We can not develop our shooting skills on live game as they did in those days. Target shooting on clays develops our skills. Our ancestors also lived through the great depression. Money was scarce and they viewed target shooting as a waste of ammunition. Each shot fired better put meat in the pot. The only difference between muzzleloading shotguns and modern shotguns that I notice is the time it takes to reload. They are not at all like rifles. A modern centerfire rifle is an entirely different tool compared to a muzzleloading rifle. Muzzleloading rifles can not come close to the velocity or ballistics of a cartridge rifle using modern propellants. Modern shotguns are not such a great leap in performance over the muzzleloaders as rifles are.
Thank you for a very informative video. I have tried patterning my sxs 20 ga with disappointing results. I am anxious to get to the range and try a few of your suggestions
sir thank you for this.. i have a good channel of my own and i cover mostly woodscraft..however blackpowder is a passion of mine and i began covering percussion revolvers a few years ago as part of my channel.. i shoot a flintlock 50 poor boy southern mtn rifle but recently i was gifted a cva .50 mountain rifle and a TC new englander 12ga. in the 1980's i did quite a lot of hunting with a double 10ga percussion .. so i wanted a refresher on shotguns since i am out of touch for 30yrs.. i found your channel and really enjoyed your video more over you helped me to recall a lot of the tips and tricks i knew back then.. when i do my video for my followers i will be sure to point your channel out and encourage those who enjoy the muzzloaders to check your channel out..
Excellent! Wonderful & your presentation was not at all confusing or overly complicated. You explain things very well & concisely, & I thank you. Been doing this for decades, and learned some new tricks. My 12ga. side-by-side is a Navy Arms cylinder bore. I think there only 2 areas of possible catastrophe in muzzleloaders: one is using other than black powder; and two, is not having the projectile firmly seated on the powder. Other than those, basic firearm safety is identical between a front stuffer & those modern things that use those brass suppositories up the wrong end of the gun (personally, I think they're just a passing fad,... they'll never catch on...) BUT, I've always been a BIT concerned about the recoil from the first barrel moving the shot column slightly forward in the second. Whaddaya think? Anything to it? Thanks again, Steve. Always a pleasure.
Recoil from the first shot moving the load up the second barrel? I've heard that concern but never had it happen. I did check for it when I first started shooting my shotgun but never found that to be an issue. I did shoot twelve pheasants and two chukars one day and only fired my right barrel. I never fired the left barrel and that load stayed in place all day. And that was using the cork wad over the shot. Talking with other shooters, they have never seen that in their guns. I suppose it could happen if you were trying to use undersized wads. ( a 16 gauge wad in a 12 gun?) It is easy to check though, just drop the ramrod down that barrel while reloading the fired barrel. Thanks for watching and commenting.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Thanks, Steve, for answering. I've used the ramrod to check the position of the shot column in the 2nd barrel & I've never noticed any change, but I was just wondering if anyone else had. Appreciate it.
For your consideration only and not to tell you what you need to do. I have learned from reading and shooting my vintage 12 gauge muzzle loader that the loading recipe my gun likes is....1FG black powder.....followed by a wad of wasp nest packed tightly....followed by two stiff cards cut from waxed milk cartons. I do not feel that a cushion wad is needed and a waste of money because some pressure is vented through the nipple orifice. These wads were developed for shot shells to act as a filler and somewhat of a cushion. A muzzle loader barrel is not a shot shell. Then I load the shot held in place by one stiff card. The wasp nest is light but seals the bore very well and does not interfere with the flight of the projectiles. And the Skychief recipe uses a cushion wad soaked in olive oil not soaking wet with water. This soaked wad is placed on top of the shot and card....and does produce better patterns in my gun...maybe not in yours. Also, google VM Starr, an old time SD black powder gunsmith and hunter. And yes, I have tried, felt wads, cork wads, and nitro cards and otherwise. Enjoy your gun, keep your powder dry....and Merry Christmas!
I knew the Cork protectors I got at the 99 cent store would be useful sooner or later. Also, Wet Water in a wad will Not Compress? so a cushion wad may have less cushion? Love the idea of some "whatever's wet" down the pipe after the charge, I may adapt a form of this with my Capers and stoners with Ball? Thank You Sir! for getting me Thinking. I must do more thinking and planning than shooting as the drive to shoot is a pilgrimage for me. Keep Your Smoke Poles SMOKING!
A patched ball in a rifled barrel may allow moisture to seep past the patch and wet your powder. I have not tried spritzing the bore in my rifled barrels, only the smoothbores. I still wipe my rifled bore with a damp cleaning patch between shots when shooting competition. My friends who load wet cushion wads don't have any problems with it. I don't use them because my gun did not shoot as well with that.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Agree, I was thinking s shot card or cork already on hand sized over charge, but I would try the one less step too on rounds, not a Mine ball only card on top of projo, maybe ball too?. could be huge for multiple shots without a swab and easier cleaning at end? like good grease over ball in my cylinders?
I have an 1838 D/B 12. I use 8 pellets, .32 of soft lead wrapped in paper. I never use wad, just the paper. I hunt deer in close brush. I've never shot one farther then 6 yards. So slow and soft load. I shoot a 3/4 oz of shot and 1/2 oz. of powder.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Love to see something on buck loads. I'd also like to see standards wads vs paper. I've tried cork and found very little diff at close range.
I plan to work on buck shot loads sometime soon. I don't see a reason to try paper wadding or paper shot tubes. I have my guns dialed in well with what I am using and have concerns with paper starting a fire. I also don't have interest in paper cartridges. Those were military use, I don't think it was common for civilians.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Got ya. My "cartridges" are a wad of paper with the buck wadded up inside. The powder is premeasured in a small plastic medicine bottle with the wad underneath. I use newspaper soaked in borax.
Do you know the degree of the choked barrel? is it modified, Full, or? Usually the right barrel is the more open choke and the front trigger fires it. The left barrel should be the tighter choke and is fired with the rear trigger. I load both barrels exactly the same. The only issue with a full or tight choke might be getting the card started. Start it edge first then turn it. With a 10 gauge, a cylinder / full choke setup might be a good combination. My 12 gauge is Improved cylinder / modified which I consider a good choice for clays and upland birds. A cylinder / full setup might be a good gun for waterfowl over decoys.
I have flintlock rifles but not a shotgun. Are you familiar with a flintlock shotgun? I would like to have one of those and not worry about finding caps
The only new flintlock double barrel shotguns I know of are Pedersoli. I don't trust Pedersoli flintlocks. If you want a single barrel, consider a flintlock smooth bore.
I have trouble loading the cushion wad. It requires quite a bit force and wad damage to get the wad past the choke (modified). What's the trick to getting the wad past the choke?
I have never seen that problem with a modified choke but I have with a full choke. I would measure the inside diameter of the muzzle and compare that to the diameter of your wads. Perhaps those wads are too large for your gun? It is usually the over powder / nitro cards that cause problems with the full choke not the cushion wad.
Some have good results using plastic shot cups, others make cups from paper. None of that helped my double barrel gun at all. In fact the patterns were worse than my regular loadings. However, my cylinder bore flintlock will shoot full choke size patterns using muffin mix as a shot buffer. There is an article explaining how I do that on the website. One key is I use magnum, hard, nickel plated shot for turkey hunting. It's expensive but patterns tighter than the same size soft shot. I have never been interested in seeing how far out I can kill a turkey. I enjoy calling them right into my lap. So the patterns I get from my I/C and Mod chokes in the double work fine. The 20 gauge flintlock cylinder bore does benefit from the muffin mix. That takes it out to 35 yards. Everyone I know who has a jug choked barrel loves those for turkey. If I were to have a gun just for turkey it would have a jug choked barrel.
I buy shot from the re-loading section of sporting goods stores. The last time I bought any it was just beginning to be hard to find. I was low on #9 and #8 and could not find any so I settled on #8 1/2 and #7. Wish I could tell you of a reliable source, but I don't know any. Like everything else, just grab it where you can find it.
It is a fixed choked - IC / Mod. Chokes came into use in 1874. My double barrel percussion gun fits into the late 1800 early 1900 time period. It is correct for the 1880's time period. My flintlock trade gun is an 1812 type and it is cylinder bore. Choke tubes didn't appear until 1960's 1970's If I remember correctly. I was not trying to pass my double barrel off as a pre-1840's gun. If I gave that impression, it was not intentional.
Like a modern side by side. The right barrel is Improved cylinder and the left is Modified. The front trigger fires the right barrel and the back trigger fires the left barrel. You have instant choke selection.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 I see what you have now. I only have an open bore single shot BP shotgun. No choke as best I can tell and you can load it to scatter a little or a lot but a heavy pattern it not possible.
My 1812 style Chiefs' Grade Trade gun is 20 gauge with a cylinder bore. I have found a loading that matches the pattern from My 870 20 gauge with full choke. I have not done a video on that yet but you can read the article here. traditionalmuzzleloader.com/index.php/muffin-mix-turkey-loads
This might be a long read , warning; My understanding is that tighter double barreled choked old western Shotguns were rare. The reason was it made them hard to load. The most common combo was an open cylinder and improved cylinder. That is how my Spanish made CVA 12ga is and i have owned two in my lifetime. First off, Nipples: I replaced all my Nipples with musket caps on all long guns, except the inline as its a 209 primer. :) Switching over to musket caps is a whole new ballgame. You get HOT ignition which burns up more powder, less residue. A win and you also get more velocity. Ever try RS Pyrodex in your Shotgun (loose powder, not pellets)? I like 90gr and 1oz of 7 or 7.5 shot. However i can also go as high as 100gr same load of shot, i call it a magnum load lol. 90 grains is actually close to the 3 dram equivalent of the old rating of modern shotguns. With 3.25 drams being common loading. Wadding: Ever Try a modern 12ga shotgun wad (plastic) shot cup with piston? The same ones you buy at a modern reloading store? Despite what people say, they do not melt right on top of the powder by themselves. If you are worried about it you can put a card wad over powder before you put the plastic wadding down the bore. However, if you use Pyrodex with them you would be lucky to notice virtually ANY melting. I must give the man responsible for showing me about the plastic shot cub wads. He was the editor of Field & Stream Magazine in the 80s, his name was Ted Trueblood. Started doing what he suggested in the article when i got my first BP shotgun, good times, good times. Moose Milk: I seen how quickly your shotgun foals. This is a sign that your not burning up as much of the powder as you think you are. Barrel length, caps and how tight your bore is ARE factors. I have never needed to use Moose Milk to clean any black powder guns. Just Hot water and plenty of rags and a bronze brush. Shooting: I can shoot many times in a day with 30 or more per barrel being common without wiping or cleaning in the field. I am curious as to how long your barrels are and how tight the bore is. Tighter chokes are going to be harder to load each time you shoot and reload them. My model of CVA: My BP muzzle loading shotgun is a CVA Turkey double 12ga. There is another model that is almost exact but, the scene on the locks is different. The manufacturer of these guns made the mistake of putting the wrong scene on the wrong gun. So Turkey Doubles have the Duck scene and the Duck Double has the turkeys scene. LOL These guns have not been made (thins version) since mid 1970s to late in the 80s. Good video. I like to see what others are doing. I may have to make more BP videos at some point, i have a challenge or two in mind...
I have tried several different plastic shot cups including those sold by CVA for their muzzle loading gun. None of them improved my patterns and some patterns were just horrible. My shotgun is a Navy Arms with 28 inch barrels choked improved cylinder and Mod. I don't have any problem loading the wads or cards. I will only use black powder. The guns get dirty and foul but there are easy ways to deal with that. Yes, water works to clean them but I think the moose milk works better. I like the Ballistoil in the mix. I think it helps prevent flash rusting. Interesting thing about muzzle loading gun, many different things will work well. Just find what works in your gun and go shoot!
I love Traditional Muzzleloader unlike some CZcams filmers he actually knows his subject material very well
Thank you!
I know right he is a great guy.very knolagable
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 hey there I just bought a 12 gauge shotgun made by pietta and I don't know is it can handle buckshot do you know if it would be safe? Any help is appreciated 🙏
@@offensiveguy4085 Yes, buck shot will work fine. Load it by weight just like any other size shot.
Underrated channel in the blackpowder side of youtube.
Thank you.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Perhaps I missed it, but what do you use to lube the cushion wad?
@@chickensandwich1589
I bought them pre-lubed. I do add olive oil when needed.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Thanks! I just soaked about thirty or so in some olive oil, they are on a screen over the sink as we speak.
Thanks Steve, hunted dove this year for the first time with my dads Brown Bess. Best time I’ve had hunting them in the last 20 years. Needed this info to improve upon for next year. Glad to see you making some videos again. Thank you.
Thanks for watching
The load you called the Starchief load is actually the Skychief load.
Works awesome in my smooth bores for dense even patterns. All of my hunting buddys use it too for turkey and squirrel. It made dramatic differences versus other load combinations!
Thanks for your correction. Yes, it can work. I know some who use it.
Thank you for sharing your experience with load development... Thumbs up...
My pleasure!
Great lesson. This is the grandpa I wish I had. Thank you sir!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Great video! Very informative!
I have a CVA double barrel.
Hi Steve, I find your videos to be very well made, educational for the things I haven't heard of and reaffirming for those things I know about or methods that I already use. Very good information for new as well as more experienced shooters. I wondered about some of the things you explained in your videos before and now I have the answers. Thank you very much Steve! I have a way to remember which barrel to load first that works for me. It's pretty corny but here's the way I do it. I think, "If I load this gun RIGHT, then I'll have one barrel LEFT to load."
I have to figure out how to keep the paper from blowing away when I want to shoot my patterns.
I came up with a way to carry a bunch of pre-measured charges of powder and shot that might come in handy. I bought a bunch of little plastic tubes with push in caps and charge these up before I head out hunting. They fit nicely into a bandolier made for .410 sized shells. I carry a pocket full of Nitro cards and over-shot cards. I just use one over the powder and and an over-shot on top. I carry the caps in an inline capper on a string around my neck. Great for hunting doves when the action is fast.
Thanks again for all the films you put up. They are great,
Calvin
Thanks for all the info. I didn’t realize all the combinations of wads to assist in patterning. This helps a lot.
Glad it was helpful!
Awesome n very entertaining video, every muzzle loading shotgun shooter should watch this video !! I use a TC New Englander 12 ga single n love it, very fun to shoot !!!
Thank you!
Great video! Very informative, just what I needed. THANK YOU SIR!
Very welcome
I look for information on muzzleloader shotguns all the time and never find much. Very glad i found this channel. One thing I like to do for my 14 gauge is make tubes of shot. It looks like a small roll of quarters and i can have pre measured shot of different sizes and weights for whatever im using. I dont get terrible donuts usually but my patterns are usually rather wide, which I don't mind much at this point.
I hope you found this helpful.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983I found it very helpful. But I currently load with two overshot cards over powder, wonder wad, shot, one overshot card. No donut but very wide, which I don't mind much because I keep it close for now. Next year I plan on getting tighter groups. If I can find actual 14 gauge components. The dealer told me it was 12 gauge, and I can't safely use the other wads that I had bought thousands of. 1873-75 manufactured drisket.
I found similar results using over shot cards between powder and shot. Large but very even patterns. Sounds like you will need to get a punch and make cards and wads to fit. Good luck with it,
Very informative, thank you very much for sharing your wealth of experience.
Glad it was helpful!
Good info, and a few BP tips for loading my new Pedersoli trap gun, at this point in time my results are mediocre. Will go the patterning board and a few load combo's, thanks for the tip's and the informative video.. Richard from Canada.
Good luck, have fun with it.
i don't think your explanations were boring , people that are long time black powder shooters , will fully appreciate your indept explanations . i agree with v.m. starr , that's why i always carry more than i need . ram rods ,spare nipples , barrel worms , barrels jags , and wads . i use a dram/ounce dippers and mimic the charge loads from shotgun boxes . i've seen ramrods end up in the drink , when a person fails to take account of air pressure in the barrel while loading . i some time carry marked preloaded paper cartridges . powder , nitro card , wads , then overshot card , then shot , then finally shot. i carry them in watertight pvc tubes . my cheap cva double has brought down geese, ducks , pheasant , snipe , quail , and dove . heavier loads for rabbit and squirrel. patched .690 roundballs with a normal slug powder , will bring down deer.
Mr. Star sure knew how to do it! I don't think there is a more versatile gun or one that is more fun.
Hunting snipe eh?
Thanks for this. I have a 20 gauge trade gun coming. I was needing this
I have a 20 gauge Chief's Grade trade gun. I use the same wad combination in it as my double barrel shotgun and get good patterns. I have a turkey load that is impressive, need to do a video on that. Good luck with your trade gun, they are fun.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 I plan to bring to Hawken Classic this year. Hope to see you there again.
I hope to go, but my schedule is very up in the air. Perhaps as the time gets closer I will know. I really enjoyed it last March and it looks to be even better this time.
What a great video.
I have been shooting BP muzzle loading shogun
over fifty years in competition and in hunting too.
You have described virtually the same as me, but
the only difference is I use an once and a quatre
volume for volume.
There is one thing I'd like you NOT to do and that
is using the palm of your hand to push the ram rod
down, either hold its side or use a range rod with
a ball on the end.
I was at a MLAIC world champs and saw a ram
rod go through a man's hand because there was
an ember still in the barrel and it went off.
Great job with the video and happy hunting.
You are right about the hand over the ramrod. A bad habit I need to correct. Thanks for the comment.
Well I haven't seen you for a while it's good to see you back especially showing your 12 gauge shotgun loading. I have a 1905 and the Name Escapes me but I do know it was made in New York with a Damascus Barrel and I was told to use only black powder in it. Well that's what I use in it now I can use shotgun shells but I can also reload down the barrel it just takes a little longer because I have to take the primers out of the shells that I have cut off and just put another primer in there and then load it the same way you just did. I haven't had a chance to ask anyone but it seems to me that if it's a Damascus Barrel I should be able to shoot conventional shells but I haven't had a chance to ask anyone I'm hoping you'll be able to answer this for me. Anyway I love my old shotgun it shoots black powder just as good and I can keep loading shells or if I want to I can load down the barrel. I wish there was a way to convert it to using nipples but I don't know that they make anything to do that. Thanks for the video I'm certainly glad you showed the double barrel loading. Keep ye powder dry!
With the old Damascus barrels only use black powder. You can reload those shells with black powder. The smokeless powders create too much pressure for the Damascus barrels. Plenty of cowboy shooters are loading shells and cartridges with black powder. That load data is available.
Thanks for watching.
New sub. Me & my 12ga Thompson Center New Englander thank you sir.👍
Awesome! Thank you!
On this, my first encounter with your content, I have both liked and subscribed; and, my comment/inquiry follows.
I am ashamed to admit why I found your channel and this video. However, the truth is that during a time of severe and prolonged crises I neglected not just one, but two muzzle-loading rifles. The first was a Thompson Center Renegade in .50 caliber. In order to make only the second elk hunt since the life-changing events in the mid-to-late 1980's, I purchased the second rifle, a CVA Optima, also in .50 caliber, in 2018 under the mistaken impression that it had a stainless steel barrel. I did not fire the hunting load in that barrel for more than a year, only to subsequently discover that "stainless steel" was no more than a coating which the powder--I honestly can't recall whether it was Goex FFF or Pyrodex RS--found the material quite ameanable to pitting.
I do not want to retain, nor do I wish to sell, firearms in such a deplorable state. Thus, I am considering having the barrels of both rifles bored out to function as smooth-bore muskets/shotguns. Wondering what type of over-shot wadding might prevent "doughnut patterns" prompted my online search term "best way to load muzzle-loading shotgun for good patterns." Thus, I arrived at your comprehensive and well-presented discussion of the topic!
Sir, are you aware of, and would you care to recommend, anyone who offers such machining to convert my rifle barrels to smooth bore? Do any of them also produce a bore that will accept modern, screw-in choke tubes?
I don't know anyone personally but there are gunsmiths who can fresh out a barrel to a larger caliber rifled bore or a smooth bore. Screw in chokes can also be installed if the barrel wall is thick enough. I don't know anyone I could recommend, but some Google search will likely find them.
Thanks for your comments and good luck with your guns.
good video, one idea, to save double charging, mark the ramrod with a red tape, so if the tape is seen, STOP, the rod hasn't gone down enough, due to too much powder in the gun.
Great video, i learned allot.
Thank you
I’m new to muzzle loading shotguns and found this video extremely helpful, so thanks. I find from reading V.M. Starr that guys of old sometimes did a lot of shooting afield and, I get the impression, not so much shooting at a range. It’s also my impression that most guys today do a lot of range shooting and not as much afield. I’m talking rounds expended here. I’m totally with you about patterning your loads but I was wondering your impressions on field experience versus range experience when it comes to black powder and its lethality and effectiveness? It also strikes me that black powder shotgunning is superior to smokeless in that loads can be customized on the spot without sacrificing much velocity or range at all due to the nature of smoothbores in general, this not being the case with blackpowder rifles versus smokeless cartridges. Just some musings that you may have covered before and if so if you could direct me to that video I’d love to hear your comments. And one last thing; when I think of loading brass shotshells with blackpowder for my modern side by side, I think of it as virtually the same as muzzle loading a black powder gun with the only difference being the thin wall of brass of the case. Am I missing something in that thinking that I should be taking into consideration when working up loads?
Black powder shotguns are about 100 to 200 fps slower than modern shotshells. I can discern no difference in lethality on game or the effectiveness at breaking clay targets. Field shooting vs range shooting? I do a lot of both. I believe skeet shooting makes me a better shot on birds.
I understand the difference between "old guy" thinking and "young guy" thinking when it involves shooting. My older relatives were in the field when game was plentiful and limits were generous. They could shoot birds until their skills were well honed. Today we have short seasons, smaller bag limits, and fewer birds to shoot at. We can not develop our shooting skills on live game as they did in those days. Target shooting on clays develops our skills.
Our ancestors also lived through the great depression. Money was scarce and they viewed target shooting as a waste of ammunition. Each shot fired better put meat in the pot.
The only difference between muzzleloading shotguns and modern shotguns that I notice is the time it takes to reload. They are not at all like rifles. A modern centerfire rifle is an entirely different tool compared to a muzzleloading rifle. Muzzleloading rifles can not come close to the velocity or ballistics of a cartridge rifle using modern propellants. Modern shotguns are not such a great leap in performance over the muzzleloaders as rifles are.
Great info Thanks for sharing .
You bet
Great video
Thanks!
Thank you for a very informative video. I have tried patterning my sxs 20 ga with disappointing results. I am anxious to get to the range and try a few of your suggestions
I am sure you will find a load your gun patterns well.
sir thank you for this.. i have a good channel of my own and i cover mostly woodscraft..however blackpowder is a passion of mine and i began covering percussion revolvers a few years ago as part of my channel.. i shoot a flintlock 50 poor boy southern mtn rifle but recently i was gifted a cva .50 mountain rifle and a TC new englander 12ga. in the 1980's i did quite a lot of hunting with a double 10ga percussion .. so i wanted a refresher on shotguns since i am out of touch for 30yrs.. i found your channel and really enjoyed your video more over you helped me to recall a lot of the tips and tricks i knew back then.. when i do my video for my followers i will be sure to point your channel out and encourage those who enjoy the muzzloaders to check your channel out..
Thank you. I have enjoyed watching your woodcrafts videos. I do love spending time in the forests. Thanks again for your comments.
Excellent! Wonderful & your presentation was not at all confusing or overly complicated. You explain things very well & concisely, & I thank you.
Been doing this for decades, and learned some new tricks.
My 12ga. side-by-side is a Navy Arms cylinder bore. I think there only 2 areas of possible catastrophe in muzzleloaders: one is using other than black powder; and two, is not having the projectile firmly seated on the powder. Other than those, basic firearm safety is identical between a front stuffer & those modern things that use those brass suppositories up the wrong end of the gun (personally, I think they're just a passing fad,... they'll never catch on...)
BUT, I've always been a BIT concerned about the recoil from the first barrel moving the shot column slightly forward in the second.
Whaddaya think? Anything to it?
Thanks again, Steve. Always a pleasure.
Recoil from the first shot moving the load up the second barrel? I've heard that concern but never had it happen. I did check for it when I first started shooting my shotgun but never found that to be an issue. I did shoot twelve pheasants and two chukars one day and only fired my right barrel. I never fired the left barrel and that load stayed in place all day. And that was using the cork wad over the shot. Talking with other shooters, they have never seen that in their guns. I suppose it could happen if you were trying to use undersized wads. ( a 16 gauge wad in a 12 gun?)
It is easy to check though, just drop the ramrod down that barrel while reloading the fired barrel.
Thanks for watching and commenting.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Thanks, Steve, for answering. I've used the ramrod to check the position of the shot column in the 2nd barrel & I've never noticed any change, but I was just wondering if anyone else had. Appreciate it.
VM Star shot clay birds at Frienship back in the 50s and 60s. The distance was mostly around 20 to 30 yards.
This was not hunting loads.
Only change one component at a time. That way you know what did or didnt work
For your consideration only and not to tell you what you need to do. I have learned from reading and shooting my vintage 12 gauge muzzle loader that the loading recipe my gun likes is....1FG black powder.....followed by a wad of wasp nest packed tightly....followed by two stiff cards cut from waxed milk cartons. I do not feel that a cushion wad is needed and a waste of money because some pressure is vented through the nipple orifice. These wads were developed for shot shells to act as a filler and somewhat of a cushion. A muzzle loader barrel is not a shot shell. Then I load the shot held in place by one stiff card. The wasp nest is light but seals the bore very well and does not interfere with the flight of the projectiles. And the Skychief recipe uses a cushion wad soaked in olive oil not soaking wet with water. This soaked wad is placed on top of the shot and card....and does produce better patterns in my gun...maybe not in yours. Also, google VM Starr, an old time SD black powder gunsmith and hunter. And yes, I have tried, felt wads, cork wads, and nitro cards and otherwise. Enjoy your gun, keep your powder dry....and Merry Christmas!
Thank you! And Merry Christmas to you and yours!
I knew the Cork protectors I got at the 99 cent store would be useful sooner or later. Also, Wet Water in a wad will Not Compress? so a cushion wad may have less cushion? Love the idea of some "whatever's wet" down the pipe after the charge, I may adapt a form of this with my Capers and stoners with Ball?
Thank You Sir! for getting me Thinking. I must do more thinking and planning than shooting as the drive to shoot is a pilgrimage for me.
Keep Your Smoke Poles SMOKING!
A patched ball in a rifled barrel may allow moisture to seep past the patch and wet your powder. I have not tried spritzing the bore in my rifled barrels, only the smoothbores. I still wipe my rifled bore with a damp cleaning patch between shots when shooting competition.
My friends who load wet cushion wads don't have any problems with it. I don't use them because my gun did not shoot as well with that.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983
Agree, I was thinking s shot card or cork already on hand sized over charge, but I would try the one less step too on rounds, not a Mine ball only card on top of projo, maybe ball too?. could be huge for multiple shots without a swab and easier cleaning at end? like good grease over ball in my cylinders?
#legend love these videos!!
Thank you.
I have an 1838 D/B 12. I use 8 pellets, .32 of soft lead wrapped in paper. I never use wad, just the paper. I hunt deer in close brush. I've never shot one farther then 6 yards. So slow and soft load. I shoot a 3/4 oz of shot and 1/2 oz. of powder.
We shoot .32 caliber ball from our smoothbore trade guns in a buckshot match. I am still experimenting with the patterns for that.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Love to see something on buck loads. I'd also like to see standards wads vs paper. I've tried cork and found very little diff at close range.
I plan to work on buck shot loads sometime soon. I don't see a reason to try paper wadding or paper shot tubes. I have my guns dialed in well with what I am using and have concerns with paper starting a fire. I also don't have interest in paper cartridges. Those were military use, I don't think it was common for civilians.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Got ya. My "cartridges" are a wad of paper with the buck wadded up inside. The powder is premeasured in a small plastic medicine bottle with the wad underneath. I use newspaper soaked in borax.
just got a pedersoli 10 gauge classic. rgt barrel is not choked and left is. how do you handle that?
Do you know the degree of the choked barrel? is it modified, Full, or?
Usually the right barrel is the more open choke and the front trigger fires it. The left barrel should be the tighter choke and is fired with the rear trigger.
I load both barrels exactly the same. The only issue with a full or tight choke might be getting the card started. Start it edge first then turn it.
With a 10 gauge, a cylinder / full choke setup might be a good combination.
My 12 gauge is Improved cylinder / modified which I consider a good choice for clays and upland birds. A cylinder / full setup might be a good gun for waterfowl over decoys.
I have flintlock rifles but not a shotgun. Are you familiar with a flintlock shotgun? I would like to have one of those and not worry about finding caps
The only new flintlock double barrel shotguns I know of are Pedersoli. I don't trust Pedersoli flintlocks. If you want a single barrel, consider a flintlock smooth bore.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Thank you for your response.
I'll check Kibler to see if they have anything going on
Boa tarde
I have trouble loading the cushion wad. It requires quite a bit force and wad damage to get the wad past the choke (modified). What's the trick to getting the wad past the choke?
I have never seen that problem with a modified choke but I have with a full choke. I would measure the inside diameter of the muzzle and compare that to the diameter of your wads. Perhaps those wads are too large for your gun? It is usually the over powder / nitro cards that cause problems with the full choke not the cushion wad.
Steve what load recommendation do you give for maximum performance for harvesting turkeys?
Some have good results using plastic shot cups, others make cups from paper. None of that helped my double barrel gun at all. In fact the patterns were worse than my regular loadings.
However, my cylinder bore flintlock will shoot full choke size patterns using muffin mix as a shot buffer. There is an article explaining how I do that on the website. One key is I use magnum, hard, nickel plated shot for turkey hunting. It's expensive but patterns tighter than the same size soft shot.
I have never been interested in seeing how far out I can kill a turkey. I enjoy calling them right into my lap. So the patterns I get from my I/C and Mod chokes in the double work fine. The 20 gauge flintlock cylinder bore does benefit from the muffin mix. That takes it out to 35 yards.
Everyone I know who has a jug choked barrel loves those for turkey. If I were to have a gun just for turkey it would have a jug choked barrel.
Thanks for that info, I'm not planning on taking 40 yards shot just the most effective and lethal load possible
@Traditional MuzzleLoader you have a go to place to get your shot? Dixie Gun works, Ox-yoke, midway USA?
I buy shot from the re-loading section of sporting goods stores. The last time I bought any it was just beginning to be hard to find. I was low on #9 and #8 and could not find any so I settled on #8 1/2 and #7. Wish I could tell you of a reliable source, but I don't know any. Like everything else, just grab it where you can find it.
I wonder if a plastic shot shell wad would work. Not the one with the crush wad but the one you put the felt wad under.
They did not work in my gun. Some use them and get results, I did not.
Ask for construction paper.
If you use a plastic modern wad they generally pattern better.
Mine did not. I tested several different wads and results were disappointing. Others have had good luck with them.
Ya better use an over powder card first..or melted plastic
If I understand you correctly you are using choke tubes in a muzzleloader. That just don't seem right.
It is a fixed choked - IC / Mod. Chokes came into use in 1874. My double barrel percussion gun fits into the late 1800 early 1900 time period. It is correct for the 1880's time period.
My flintlock trade gun is an 1812 type and it is cylinder bore.
Choke tubes didn't appear until 1960's 1970's If I remember correctly.
I was not trying to pass my double barrel off as a pre-1840's gun. If I gave that impression, it was not intentional.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 Ok so does your bouble barrel have different chockes on each barrel. Say one improved and one a full or a modified.
Like a modern side by side. The right barrel is Improved cylinder and the left is Modified. The front trigger fires the right barrel and the back trigger fires the left barrel. You have instant choke selection.
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 I see what you have now. I only have an open bore single shot BP shotgun. No choke as best I can tell and you can load it to scatter a little or a lot but a heavy pattern it not possible.
My 1812 style Chiefs' Grade Trade gun is 20 gauge with a cylinder bore. I have found a loading that matches the pattern from My 870 20 gauge with full choke.
I have not done a video on that yet but you can read the article here.
traditionalmuzzleloader.com/index.php/muffin-mix-turkey-loads
This might be a long read , warning;
My understanding is that tighter double barreled choked old western Shotguns were rare. The reason was it made them hard to load. The most common combo was an open cylinder and improved cylinder. That is how my Spanish made CVA 12ga is and i have owned two in my lifetime.
First off, Nipples:
I replaced all my Nipples with musket caps on all long guns, except the inline as its a 209 primer. :) Switching over to musket caps is a whole new ballgame. You get HOT ignition which burns up more powder, less residue. A win and you also get more velocity.
Ever try RS Pyrodex in your Shotgun (loose powder, not pellets)? I like 90gr and 1oz of 7 or 7.5 shot. However i can also go as high as 100gr same load of shot, i call it a magnum load lol. 90 grains is actually close to the 3 dram equivalent of the old rating of modern shotguns. With 3.25 drams being common loading.
Wadding:
Ever Try a modern 12ga shotgun wad (plastic) shot cup with piston? The same ones you buy at a modern reloading store? Despite what people say, they do not melt right on top of the powder by themselves. If you are worried about it you can put a card wad over powder before you put the plastic wadding down the bore. However, if you use Pyrodex with them you would be lucky to notice virtually ANY melting. I must give the man responsible for showing me about the plastic shot cub wads. He was the editor of Field & Stream Magazine in the 80s, his name was Ted Trueblood. Started doing what he suggested in the article when i got my first BP shotgun, good times, good times.
Moose Milk:
I seen how quickly your shotgun foals. This is a sign that your not burning up as much of the powder as you think you are. Barrel length, caps and how tight your bore is ARE factors. I have never needed to use Moose Milk to clean any black powder guns. Just Hot water and plenty of rags and a bronze brush.
Shooting:
I can shoot many times in a day with 30 or more per barrel being common without wiping or cleaning in the field. I am curious as to how long your barrels are and how tight the bore is. Tighter chokes are going to be harder to load each time you shoot and reload them.
My model of CVA:
My BP muzzle loading shotgun is a CVA Turkey double 12ga. There is another model that is almost exact but, the scene on the locks is different. The manufacturer of these guns made the mistake of putting the wrong scene on the wrong gun. So Turkey Doubles have the Duck scene and the Duck Double has the turkeys scene. LOL These guns have not been made (thins version) since mid 1970s to late in the 80s.
Good video. I like to see what others are doing. I may have to make more BP videos at some point, i have a challenge or two in mind...
I have tried several different plastic shot cups including those sold by CVA for their muzzle loading gun. None of them improved my patterns and some patterns were just horrible.
My shotgun is a Navy Arms with 28 inch barrels choked improved cylinder and Mod. I don't have any problem loading the wads or cards.
I will only use black powder. The guns get dirty and foul but there are easy ways to deal with that.
Yes, water works to clean them but I think the moose milk works better. I like the Ballistoil in the mix. I think it helps prevent flash rusting.
Interesting thing about muzzle loading gun, many different things will work well. Just find what works in your gun and go shoot!
@@traditionalmuzzleloader4983 , that is true.