Is Halcyon Dive Equipment a waste of money in 2021? - Halcyon vs. AQOR
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- čas přidán 3. 08. 2024
- #doktorben #halcyondivesystems #aqor
Most of the dive equipment, especially the BCD systems, made by Halcyon Dive Systems is great, but much more expensive than other brands, like Tecline, DIR Zone, Agir Brokk etc. However, their Backplates and Wings often are not very similar to Halcyon BCD's like the Halcyon Evolve 40. In this video I check out the new brand AQOR Dive Systems. Their BCD's are significantly cheaper than Halcyon BCD's but look extremely similar. But are AQOR BCD's as good as Halcyon? And if yes, does this make buying Halcyon Dive Equipment a waste of money in 2021 and can you get literally the same for a lower price?
Here is AQOR's website:
www.aqor.de/
The Halcyon Website:
www.halcyon.net/
00:00 Intro
03:52 The Wings
06:49 The Backplates
09:57 The Harnesses
11:03 The Hardware
11:50 How similar are they really?
12:55 Why should anyone buy Halcyon at all?
A short information for European customers:
Actually there is one test due for the CE certification. That means actually AQOR wings can not be sold in the EU. This only applies to the wings. The backplates are fine by now. - Jak na to + styl
So guys...AQOR or Halcyon, what do you prefer and why?
Great video once again
I personly dive with an xdeep zen what I am happy with just need to upgrade my regs
Which regs do you own?
@@DoktorBEN currently an old yoke aqualung legends and thinking of getting something like the tecline or qpeks with the 5th ports on the 1st stage
I’m a taller diver so I recently bought a long Halcyon SS backplate with a custom Evolve black/red/charcoal 60lbs wings. It went for about $1400CAD. So Aqor would not of been an option even if it was available. FYI I have the same issue with the Argon bottle placement on my Halcyon backplate as you described in the video. Thx for the great content!
Very much appreciated! Yeah that’s the thing - for special demands you need to go for Halcyon, because they can make everything customized.
Great video. Just got a Halcyon Eclipse 30 system and awaiting delivery (keep using my Zeagle Ranger for a while longer). Supported my local dive shop and got it 20% off. If the AQOR was available I might have given it a look but I customized the Halcyon so
So what’s your customization?
@@DoktorBEN Got the orange stripe for viz and to match my DUI dry suit (also not arriving until June thanks to COVID backlog),as well as the grey H on the webbing. I also got the weight and the extra pockets. We’ll see i need them. My buddy got the blue and while camo on his and it looks great.
If my LDS gave me 20% discount then i would support that shop and gave him my money too.
Very nice! That’s the cool thing with Halcyon that’s customizable
Yeah unfortunately, very often the margin is around 20% so if he’s not doing for fun, it’s hard to give that discount most likely
Hi Doc Ben, when you say that the Halcyon wings is perfect for you, gas distribution, dump valve position etc. Does it have anything to do with your torso or its just the position of the wings relative to your back that makes it very easy to dive with?
When it comes to the wing, especially the cut of it
I have been diving Halcyon for 5 years. Order a new one in the fall as I wanted custom color wing and weight pockets. I went with blue camouflage.
Verify nice!
Thanks for the review! The Aqor website prices are now €720-830 for a wing set (mono tank). Is that still good value or do you recommend alternative options?
I don’t know what the actual prices for Halcyon and others are. Traditionally, Aqor is a bit cheaper but what I heard is that customer service is not perfect.
@@DoktorBEN can you please specify what exactly you heard ? I would be very surprised by this statement, apart from the fact that the service is the reason why more and more dealers focus on Aqor and the poor service of other suppliers leads to the purchase of spare parts through Aqor. Since you have also placed some orders, it would surprise me if you had negative experiences.
many greetings
Frank Robrecht
Aqor
i hope they will make a equvalent to the halcyon 18lbs bat wing i really miss it i started diving with it but they dont sell it anymore.
What is a bat wing? Do you mean the horseshoe style?
So why do you release this video a week after I purchased my Tecline Donut SE 22! :-) I only have one dive on it, as my double tanks haven't been delivered yet, but I've been very happy with my single-tank Tecline. Do you have any opinion on those? One think I'm noticing is that the standard sizes appear to be slightly larger than what other brands make. 15kg for single and 22kg for double. I liked the wing on that one dive (with borrowed tanks), but I hope I won't come to regret my purchase.
Sorry! 😂 I think Tecline is ok, too. It’s not as similar to Halcyon as AQOR. My Girlfriend has the Donut 22 and is satisfied with it. I just don’t recommend the Special Edition since for many students it’s not beneficial in regards to trim.
Ah, I fell for the marketing blabla and bought the Special Edition! Now that you mention it, I did feel a tiny bit light in the feet while diving with it, which I guess makes some sense since the bladder is thinner at the top. It was only a small bit, though, and my own cylinders are concave, so maybe that's just enough to balance it out. Let's see, if it really doesn't work I'll have lost some euros and have learned a lesson :-)
Yeah that’s exactly what most people have with the SE. Let’s see if you can manage it.
Do you consider Agir Brokk a good alternative to Halcyon? They are easy to buy in many places and have a longer history than Aqor.
Well never owned one. I have the impression the harness is pretty stiff, especially the crotch strap, but maybe they changed it by now
Great vid! We liked it much until the end 👌🏻
Thank you very much!
@@DoktorBEN gerne
I am wondering a bit about the choice of size for this wing. Is 18kg really the prefered size for most?
The Halcyon users I know around here all use the 27kg Evolve60 and I use a 23kg DirZone. When having to remove and float your kit in the water to get back on the boat, perhaps in a choppy sea, some surplus lift is really helpful, and with steel tanks, battery canister and weights for winter undergarments 18kg seems awfully small to me.
It depends on the tanks you use! For D12 the 40 pound is usual.
@@DoktorBEN D12 concave, 3mm steel plate and 3kg of lead. The complete kit is about 50kg. Can you even float that with an 18kg wing? The rest of the kit would have to displace 32kg of water for it to float...
If it’s 50kg, the tanks displace 24l meaning 24kg, so the wing needs to compensate for 26kg. Depending on the suit you use this might work or not. It’s hard to tell without seeing it. A concave D12 I dive with Al backplate and 2kg Max. Roughly it’s 28kg for the tanks, including gas and valves it‘s let’s say 36kg plus weights it’s 38kg plus BP maybe 40kg, probably a bit less. Minus the displacement of the tanks (and the displacement of the tanks is in Reality more than 24L) it‘s 16kg negative, meaning that 18kg is sufficient.
@@DoktorBEN My D12 is definitely heavier than that. The stamp on the cylinders say 14.8kg each, but when I put the whole thing (cylinders w. ~215bar EAN28, valves/manifold and tank bands) on the scale, it says 40.8kg. Add BP, lead, regulators, canister, backup light and harness hardware, and it'll be about 50kg. I don't think it would float with an 18kg wing.
No, then probably not. But I doubt you need a SS necklace and 3kg then, anyway. But as I said, I can’t tell that without having a look
Interesting comparison and as always very nicely done video. But I would have imagined a somewhat more critical tone, that AQOR simply copies the BCD design from HALCYON. Production is one thing, the development (even if it is many years ago) has also once cost money, time and tears. And then the manufacturer also has the "right" to make profits with it. Because to copy the product 1:1 is of course more comfortable for the new manufacturer. As soon as all manufacturers do this, however, innovation no longer takes place.
Well…that’s market. However, I think that there will be innovation, since the real innovators like Halcyon have the resources and mindset to innovate things.
@@DoktorBEN That's not market, that's more like counterfeit.
Well…that’s market, too. It would be counterfeit if they stitch a Halcyon patch on it and pretend it was Halcyon. But now it’s just a cheaper copy entring the market which happens to so many products in industries with low market entry barriers. I would be upset, too, if I was Halcyon and I understand that you feel for Halcyon, too, as you can imagine somebody producing a cheap OSTC in China. However, I would see it rather as a compliment - many tried to re-create Halcyon’s products and did not really succeed, and now they started to just copy it 1:1, because the design was nearly perfect in the first place…
@@DoktorBEN they won't be able to continue to innovate if companies completely rip off their design and sell it for cheaper so they lose customers and funds. The extra cost will in part go to innovation, so if you simply have your designs and IP stolen, innovation stops.
So you have to get a patent for your innovation…at least if your innovation is not too complex for others to copy. I understand Halcyon and had a personal chat with JJ about the matter and I understand he’s not happy about people making copies of his designs. And from a moral point of view it might not be ok. But they don’t steal the design (because a design can’t be stolen - at least not in German law ;) ), they just copy what is already good. To some extend, every new BC manufacturer steals from Halcyon - so what should be the appropriate reaction? A monopoly hinders innovation, too
Bravo Ben. Bel servizio 👏👏👏
Grazie mile! 😁
Ben, In order to compare the Metallurgy of both SS backplates - I would use a magnet.
Yes I considered this, but it doesn't tell much, since there are magnetic and anti-magnetic stainless steels.
@@DoktorBEN Yes exactly... That is my point Ben. With a magnet you can compare if same, similar, or completely different amounts of IRON content. I.E. SS 304, 316, etc etc..
Yeah ok, that’s right. I’ll try to find one and write my result in the comments.
When it comes to wings and primary lights it's only Halcyon for me. The quality, customer service, and warranty on these items are amazing. These are expensive items. I do live in Gainesville, FL and I am happy to support Halcyon and I hope they will always stay in High Springs. Alone the cost of these Items are not disproportionate to their value. I feel the cost of Halcyon items do send the customer to another company. So I'm sure other companies are happy about the prices that Halcyon maintains. The decision for me to purchase new Light Monkey back-up lights was more influenced by Halcyon than it was Light Monkey.
hi in canada the halcyon evolve 40 is about 750$ plus taxe.. ( just the wing )
have you tried the xdeep wings if so witch one thanks
No, never tried XDeep unfortunately
Up date the halcyon 40 is now 1138.99 canadan
@@johndavid7783 Where in Canada ?
Does the Halcyon Cinch System fits the Aqor Backplate? Can u check that please?
I don’t have a cinch system, so I can’t try. But they are very similar and I think it fits
I have made an enquiry to buy this set.
So, since we didn't get a good view of the stitching and stitching methods. It's the same as suits, two can look exactly the same, but the stitching matters, this is just one facet to look at. This would apply to any of the fabric components. Having known people who have companies who use Chinese manufacturing facilities, I know it is a constant struggle to ensure things are built exactly as you spec'd, using the expected quality of materials you spec'd with the design; thus, especially with high end furniture companies and higher end technology companies, they have dedicated people who are always there to audit the production lines and validate components, but this does increase cost because you're validating the quality, this may not be the case with AQOR.
How do they do this? They generally start with simple and minor things, which adds up to increase the manufacturing facilities overall profit margins at the expense of using lower quality materials including, but not limited to: grades and quality of plastics, quality of rubber gasket components, lower grade stitch material, and lower grade adhesives. These may pass QA initially, but when you consider exposure and use, could deteriorate faster or fail under conditions for which you expected the BCD to function in, which could be life threatening just to save a few dollars.
The back-plate, from the look of the holes, without measuring, it does appear the AQOR is a tad sloppy in hole position, but this is speculation as it wasn't measured. Measuring the grade of metal is best left to a metallurgist to tell us exactly.
Finally, customer service is paramount in my opinion, full stop. People who buy cheap always think they're getting a great deal, until they need service and can't get it; thus, you read their scathing reviews online about the poor customer service, yet they're the ones who decided to buy lower end knock offs and expected mainline quality customer service, you only have yourself to blame.
This video should be titled "High level overview" so to say they're "manufacturing quality is comparable" is misleading without further research into the details that matter in the long run that aren't always obvious with such a cursory look over.
Yeah, one could always dig deeper. Can you make a list of aspects you want to have covered e.g. consistency in hole diameter and position etc. and send it to me on ben@gue.com? I’d love to look into these things!
@@DoktorBEN Yeah, it would be interesting to see if they would respond; however, they could say this is "trade secret", but even if they provided a list, the next question is what mechanisms they have in place to ensure consistent quality when using a third party Chinese manufacturing company? I take this from personal experience in two rather opposite industries. The first was furniture, same dresser, same brand; however, the hinges, bearings, handles, and even screws were entirely different between them, one was spec'd material, the other was lower grade/cost material and it was obvious after a few months of use. Next is technology, same servers, same brand, but I took notice of component failure rates (all the same brand names) but upon deeper inspection you could see their third party manufacturer used lower cost parts at one time, resulting in higher failure rates. Thus, what the OEM specifies is one thing, what comes off the line may be another unless strict quality control mechanisms are in place.
Sure, cheaper doesn’t mean worse necessarily, but maybe less consistent in production quality. The only method to check this would be to get a large enough sample (which will be impossible for me…)
@@DoktorBEN Yes, not all the time, but I do take into account one thing that a lot of people don't consider, the fact this was just a pure rip off copy. I mean, I get it, he didn't have an answer to his customers' questions about Halcyon, so instead of taking their design and, perhaps, finding either flaws to fix or other areas to improve upon to manufacture his own unit, he just said "Here, let us just rip off their design and sell it cheaper". Perhaps this burns me a tad more than most people because my industry is ripe with infringements on intellectual property, especially in China. So, at least for me, it doesn't count as impressive, its actually more of a negative that you ripped off a design and put your own name on it.
For us consumers, it would be impossible without an unlimited source of money to check quality at random, on a mass scale; thus, that is the OEM's job.
Any updates on this based on your diving experience with AQOR?
The outlet valve of the inflator broke after some weeks. Not a big issue since I could repair it easily. A student of mine had a hole in the inner bladder after 10 dives. AQOR just offered to sell a new one and claimed it got punctured by the zipper.
@@DoktorBEN Interesting....
Well…at least the customer support is better with halcyon. But that’s a nobrainer. AQOR has to have a tiny margin…there’s simply no money for customer support left. On the other hand, you can buy two AQORs for the price of one Halcyon BCD
@@DoktorBEN For some things this is a smarter idea, I see this in my line of work with certain pieces of hardware, where buying two is cheaper than paying for the support contracts, but not for everything and it doesn't apply to life support equipment. I'm a Dive Rite fan, I looked at Halcyon, and was rather serious about buying their gear, but there was absolutely no way I could be convinced I was getting a lesser quality product when I objectively compared it against Dive Rite rigs.
Was the same with me just for Halcyon 😄. Anyway, a Wing it’s not rocket science either. But for sustainability reason I like it when things are repaired instead of replaced
Hello, I am a diver from China. The price of Halcyon in China is also close to 800 euros. It is a bit expensive for some Chinese divers. Many Chinese divers use the akuana brand of the Chinese technical diving organization WUD, which is half the price. But I Believe in the value of Halcyon products and GUE courses. I will learn GUE basic courses in the near future. I hope to learn more. Thank you for sharing
Stay tuned until tomorrow. Maybe I’ve got diverging for you 😉
Informative (y)
When all the ideas and innovations are overseas and the only way you get help is by an email 24 hrs later you will then understand why
Yes true! I said customer service is something to be considered. However, the products are made in China perhaps, but usually you don’t order them from China but from your national distributor or a local dealer, so responses are usually quick.
Just saying that I built my BP+W BC with generic parts sourced from alibaba with the total cost of a little shy away from US$200, and most importantly both quality and perform it are as good as those branded and overpriced BC systems.
So what exactly did you order to build it?
@@DoktorBEN OSR (OEM brand) 38lbs complete wing set with inflator, Akuana standard size aluminium backplate, generic complete harness set (webbing+steel parts+crotch strap).
The Halcyon trim weight pockets I bought started falling apart almost immediately and were completely useless after a few months. The Nylon type fabric literally began to unravel and fray all around the edges. A total POS! I've never had an issue with the ones I buy off Ebay from China for $10 a pair.
The Halcyon MC cost 850 euro in the Netherlands. The XDeep MC cost about 440 euro but then you wont be part off the elite GUE club :P . I have imported my DiveRite MC from divegearexpress USA . I was sick and tired with my Dutch LDS shop in Groningen (Tuimelaar) that wanted me to buy Halcyon and Agirr brok for the highest price. If i would buy a new wing i would go for X-Deep or Apeks. Depends on the best price i get.
Nah, being part of the GUE community had nothing to do with the brand of equipment you use. But yeah it’s possible to save some cash if you buy cheaper brands and don’t want crazy customizations.
Regarding the "elite clubs", if you are not known, the fact of not wearing those 4/5 elite brands, could influence at the beginning, in some groups .... but if you are a skilled diver, well, nobody cares anymore then
No I never experienced that people look down on me because of non-elite equipment
@@DoktorBEN I have noticed it more than once, not on myself, but I have noticed it
Switched from Halcyon to Scubaforce
Can’t say anything about Scubaforce, honestly. Never used their stuff.
Just to tell you guys a sad story. In China, the plate costs 40euros, the wings are below 250 euros. Same stuff, different logo. These are just piece of metal and piece of nylon… cheap stuff
Yeah that’s true. Still it’s awkward to send everything to China if you need customer support.
HA HA
In Israel you can find the Halcyon evolve for 1400$ official price (or 1200$ VAT free only in Eilat city which quite far away in Israel terms although its our divers capital....)
Wow…that’s quite expensive!
@@DoktorBEN
Yes. Everything is expensive here specially dive gear. It leads us to look for cheaper alternatives like other countries (Egypt, Europe) or AliExpress
That why your videos so relevant for us
Thx
Can we talk about the Halcyon Eclipse 30 and the OMS Performance Wing 27. Just the wing itself is 140% more expensive with Halcyon. I mean wtf?
Yes…so what can the reason be?
@@DoktorBEN I was hoping for your kind and insightful elaboration
Well…they can ask such prices because people are willing to pay them. They have outstanding customer support - that might be part of the story. Another part is the same when it comes to Skoda cars vs. Audi or Volkswagen. The cars are quite similar since they come literally from the same company. Still, they differ in some details and largely in price because people like our dislike a certain brand.
@@DoktorBEN well, that was a bit of a disappointment: I was expecting some more specific insights on material quality/differences and production, rather than general claims about macro economy and brand. 😅 Besides, price tags may vary in all industries, but what can explain a 140 percent (on some pages more) increase, seriously? Have you had the chance to get your hands on OMS wings? A video like this backplate comparison might be an interesing one to watch for many, I am sure...
Yes I owned one some time ago. It was before they joined with DUI. I cannot really tell a difference. That’s why I can’t really say anything about differences in material quality. What I know in fact from personal experience is that Halcyon has a very good customer support
Halcyon warranty
Yes, the c customer service of Halcyon is outstanding, no question!
why does the Halcyon single wing and backplate need a single wing adaptor? Seriously Halcyon is producing a piece of steel for a fraction of the £180 they charge for it.....Halcyon is good and well made but typical American marketing with overpriced add ons that aren't needed and packaged up in an overinflated price
Well…I like the single tank adapters cause single tanks are more stable on the BP then. If it has to come at 180£ it’s questionable, though.
Of course it’s cheap, it’s a copy no money wasted on R’n’D no money wasted on living wages for the workers I could go on for ages but I think I got my point across
That’s true. The question is still, why it should be the buyers business, if the supplier has to spend money on R&D, living wages for workers and so on.
@@DoktorBEN because without someone to innovate and develop new gear we will be stuck in the past .
Sure…it’s still questionable why that should be the customers concern. I personally support companies who invest in R&D - that’s the reason I own a whole lot equipment from Halcyon - but a company has no (legal) right to expect that from their customers. Another aspect is that a wing and backplate is a rather simple and easy to copy product. If someone copies that cheaper, especially if it’s not protected by patents, that’s just the free market. That’s by the way the reason why there aren’t so many cheap JJ-CCR/SF2/Liberty/… copies from China out there.
@@DoktorBEN I agree with you, no companies have that right but it should be a customer concern because without R&D we would still dive copper hats if you exaggerate a little :-) but I see your point too .
or any DGX or Dive Rite or Mares or ....
The cheap BP/W from DGX is every bit as good as a Halcyon for a fraction of the price. It's about the diver.
I don’t know that brand. But it’s not a secret how to build a BC 😉
OK//the AQUOR has slots for single tank....do you guys not know this.....
AQOR seems to me to be a direct copy of Halcyon..10/10.
You can call it OEM but the original design seems an awful lot like another OEM's design. Thats my opinion having watched this video.
Yes also to me
OEM is not a copy
Egal welche Marke aber Ich bin absolut bereit dafür mehr Geld zu bezahlen wenn Produkte lokal und nachhaltig gefertigt werden, Ich schätze auch die Entwicklungsarbeit dieser Betriebe, den Service und freue mich das Geld in den Umlaufreis zu lassen wo Leute sich auch selbst dafür begeistern. Ich finde es etwas daneben Produkte in ein billig Produktionsland zu schicken um mir dann davon dann günstige 1:1 Nachbauten erstellen zu lassen - insb. GUE/Dir Taucher sollten sich doch der Nachhaltigkeit mitlerweile bewusst sein. Auch so ein BCD kann einen ja sehr sehr lange Begleiten…
Sicher! Ist halt die Frage, ob AQOR oder sonst wer nachhaltiger oder weniger nachhaltig ist. Was tatsächlich der Fall ist, ist das Halcyon die Community sehr unterstützt.
@@DoktorBEN Naja die Umweltauflagen sind bei einem Betrieb in Florida Springs, USA und der EU sicher andere als in China ;-)
Ich kann den gesamten Produktionsprozess bei keinem Hersteller bewerten, weshalb ich dazu nichts sagen kann. Sicher, Halcyon ist sehr etabliert, was auf jeden Fall ein Vorteil ist.
Wie genau erklärst du es dir, dass immer die gleichen Produkte bei verschiedenen Marken zu finden sind ? Die beiden Tecline Framless Masken gab es Jahre vor Halcyon H-View und Uni Version. Die Bleitaschen, Wings, Cutter usw werden von vielen Marken vertrieben oder glaubst du auch das Hollis und Scubapro und andere nachbauen? Die Aqor Produkte werden wohl beim größten Dienstleister der Tauchsport Industrie gefertigt wo auch die meistens anderen produzieren lassen.
@underwatertoolspaderborn7905 ist ja auch effizient zu nutzen, was schon da ist..
That Aqor looks actually better😆
Yeah but I think the same design is available from Halcyon, too.
The Main Reason Not To buy this! Is this company has stolen the designed from Halcyon!
If you have personal ties to halcyon, this might be a valid reason.
It is probably more the time to question why other, much larger renowned brands for many years just as the same wings, weight pockets, dive masks, etc. distribute ... but only everything OEM?
Halcyon is definitely overpriced. We are talking about a wing and a plate, not a space rocket. Virtually no innovation and investments in R&D in the last 20 years. I would be curious to know the margin they have on these items. If you don't care about the brand, good "copies" are more than welcome IMHO. Ps. I own Halcyon and Xdeep
Yes sure. Although brands like Halcyon have a very loyal customer base, but there are always people who don't care about the brand and for them the "copies" are made.
Two things in Halcyon's favor that I didn't mention: customer service (they changed my wing after years because it had a flaw on the seams) and resellability (If you have "copies" and for some reason you have to resell them, you won't get much money)
Yes the same happened to me with lights that broke on a flight. It wasn’t even Halcyon‘s mistake but they changed it without any cost.
I’m trying to decide between the Halcyon and XDEEP. Seems like both companies have brought innovation in the last 20 years. Does this innovation have practical purpose or is it just marketing? If cost is not a deciding factor, what would you recommend? Thx
I would always go with Halcyon if price wasn’t to consider, cause I never made a bad experience in customer support with them. With XDeep I already had bad experiences
I wouldn't support that "copycat" company.
It is probably more the time to question why other, much larger renowned brands for many years just as the same wings, weight pockets, dive masks, etc. distribute ... but only everything OEM?