Miking 2 People: Microphone Placement to Avoid Bleed and Phase Issues
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- čas přidán 22. 08. 2024
- When you shoot an interview or panel discussion or even a narrative film with two or more people where you use a separate mic for each person, there are a couple of common issues which can arise. These are mic bleed and phase issues. In this episode we talk a little about the 3 to 1 rule for mic placement which helps prevent phase issues and can also reduce mic bleed. We also show how to aim your mics so that you use their rejection feature (polar pattern) to reduce mic bleed.
In an upcoming episode we’ll also talk about mixing to help reduce bleed even further.
If you’d like to learn how to record and post process your sound, be sure to have a look at my sound for video courses at school.learnlig...
Visit us at learnlightands... for more updates on how to improve your lighting and sound for video. Also be sure to subscribe to get new episodes every week!
Gear used to record and featured in this episode:
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Blackmagicdesign Ursa Mini Pro Digital Film Camera (talking head shots)
B&H: bhpho.to/2nRgYER
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Panasonic GH5 (for product and mic aiming shots)
Amazon: geni.us/b1RV
B&H: bhpho.to/2oIdG7o
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DPA 4017B Shotgun Microphone
B&H: bhpho.to/2mb6pr6
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Audio Technica AT4053b Hyper Cardioid Boom Microphone
Amazon: geni.us/sRuj
B&H: bhpho.to/2lIMLCz
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Shure SM58 Dynamic Microphone
Amazon: geni.us/KP5r
B&H: bhpho.to/2noYCqu
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Aputure Light Storm COB120t LED Light (Key Light)
Amazon: geni.us/qOSe
B&H: bhpho.to/2mDOUoi
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Aputure Light Dome Soft Box (for COB120t key light)
B&H: bhpho.to/2lIDfj0
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Panasonic Lumix 12-35mm f/2.8 Lens
Amazon: geni.us/poazs
B&H: bhpho.to/2k9dmg2
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Copyright 2017 by Curtis Judd
Ethics statement: Some of the links above are Amazon.com, B&H Photo, or other affiliate links.
I'm such a bad subscriber. Just wanted to mention that over the last few years your channel has been one of the most helpful I've ever watched. Many thanks.
+Chilupian. CC&C haha! Not bad, thanks so much!
Fully agree :)))) The most helpful channel to spet into the world of audio recording!
Love your channel! I never considered audio until I started filming more, and realised that it is not so simple as "plugin a mic... any mic will do" and I've been learning so much from your complete and in-depth teardown of each subject, and thanks so much for replying to some of the questions I had earlier! That is immeasurably helpful!
Thanks so much! Audio is a journey for sure!
Incredibly well explained and demonstrated. Thanks for taking the time to lay it out as you did!
Thanks, Tom.
I must be tired, cause I totally read that title as "Milking Two People" ;)
Please do not operate dangerous equipment like microphones and mixers when fatigued. ;-)
The one person who actually answers the question, how do you record two people in the room without bleeding (echoing) etc.? A simple explanation and super helpful.
👍
Curtis Thanks so much again. I was just going over the Comments which I don't normally do but it's a good idea because then I get to see what other's have questions on. I also need to do so more often so I can get an idea of what other's are thinking and using. Excellent ideas and advice.Thanks again Deb as I really enjoyed.
Thanks for all the videos, Curtis. They have been extremely helpful to me over the years.
Thanks Todd.
A very helpful explanation, although somewhat ironically, I can hear what sounds like a violin being played in the background. I'm forever trying different things to reduce bleed when doing multi guest podcasts.
Automix or railroading in post may be the best bet: czcams.com/video/-ffUEKRRuWs/video.htmlfeature=shared
Google Search a semi technical audio issue, clicked the link, and its you again Curtis. Really you are amazing thank you for this content! getting a new NTG3 for interviews this week. you have taken me from complete beginner to... complete beginner with a decent idea.
Hahaha! Thanks Fala, and happy recording!
I've fought so much with sound. Heck, I've fought with video and lighting, too, but getting great sound on a budget is trickier in my opinion. Thanks for all your videos and for getting me to use metric measurements, ha.
Haha! And thank you for the feedback!
@Curtis Judd I am partially deaf. I am currently using a Mighty Mic W to transmit audio wirelessly via Bluetooth from the "talent" - usually a teacher or educator etc to my iPhone6s into AVA an awesome voice to text app. This is basically a realtime "transcript" of what is being said.
The app is designed to make group conversations accessible, ideally each talent downloads the app to their phone and uses their phone as a microphone. Their input goes to the cloud which gets processed and output in realtime over land based wifi (home/commercial wifi/ public hotspots) or each person's cellular connection.
In real world use it's time consuming to get people to download an app and setup an account. Often I can't meet a lecturer in advance. So I've been looking into ways to simply hand them a microphone and go.
I've run into a few snags though.
I've run into situations where the internet is flaky, AVA grinds to a halt and I am without access. I've been doing some research and I've purchased the Tascam DR-10cs (I'm willing to order from overseas to bypass the copyright infringement debacle). I bought it so that even if I don't have access to what a teacher says in class, I can run the recording through voice to text transcription software after the fact and get something instead of completely losing out on the information provided in class. I think I have heard of some sd cards being able to transmit wirelessly, some transcription software can work with audio files that are still writing… hmm. I'll have look into that more.
Anyways, to the point. I need a suggestion for a mic.
I like the style of the headset I saw in your review of the Samson Stage XPD1 Headset USB Digital Wireless System. I need something higher quality though.
My current use case scenario is I need to put it on my paragliding instructor. We will be on the beach where there is constant wind, minimum 3 mph up to 12 mph+ wind speed. Once in the air the wind speed is minimum 12 mph and up. I understand that this is difficult for microphones to handle… I can't use a shotgun mic as my hands will be occupied working my paraglider, the same is true for the instructor.
I realize this application is probably very niche, and I may well not use the microphone in this windy situation as I'd use in a lecture hall, or public space with sound that bounces around everywhere.
I've done some research in the past and have heard that some aviators (or was it motorcyclists?) use throat mics, but I wonder if that's really necessary for this, or if it'd even be feasible for voice to text purposes.
One issue for sure though with transcription software like Dragon Dictate is that it doesn't like it when more than one voice is in the audio at the same time. I know from your review and having looked around that most lavalier mics are omnidirectional. I'm definitely wanting something that only picks up the immediate user's voice and is really good at rejecting background noise or the voices of other people in close proximity.
I currently have a cheapo mic that came with my Nolan livemic2 (terrible Bluetooth audio transmitter I wish I could get a refund for it), a Rode smartlav+ (pretty happy with it for my modest needs,) and a Movo PM 10 Deluxe (I'm testing the MOVO PM 10 right now, considering picking up 10+ of the MOVO PM mics to give to a classroom of people so I get better input when they use AVA so they don't have to hold their phones in front of their faces + hand them a small power bank so they don't resent the drain of battery on their phones) or for meetings etc.
I'm willing to pay through the nose for a good mic. I picked up the CS model but I'm wondering if the other variations might be compatible with better mics. Sucks that microphones and recorder models are so proprietary.
Apologies for my mammoth comment, I could really use some help though. Even if you can't help me I'd much appreciate being pointed to a great forum where I can sign up and ask.
Lastly I wanted to say I've really appreciated your videos and have learned a lot in a short time about video/audio equipment. Thanks :).
Hi Adam, Countryman makes the E6 with a cardioid polar pattern. You could also put a furry lav cover on it to help manage the wind. There are options for several different types of plugs. Here is the most common with a 3.5mm locking (identified as being for Sennheiser but works with many other 3.5mm systems): bhpho.to/2tSMpSd Best wishes!
Gosh what an excellent channel. I've started to play around a little bit more with audio and have been piecing things together informally. Your videos have helped clarify how I can improve my work in the future. Thanks!!!
Thanks for the feedback!
Great advice Curtis! Thank you so much for taking the time to make this video.
The pleasure is mine, thank you!
Is the 3:1 rule a minimum? Like can I have the other mic more than 3 times the distance away and still have no issues with phase?
Yes, I would consider 3:1 a minimum and when you get farther away than that, the chance of phase issues seems to diminish a tiny bit more, mainly because you're getting even less bleed.
@@curtisjudd what is the scientific reason behind phase? How does another mic cause that slight distortion if it is too close? (Ignoring mic bleed bc thats obvious)
@@wcsdiaries The sound from one person arrives at the two microphones at different times, thus they are out of phase to some extent. When the sound from both microphones is combined, this results in constructive and/or destructive interference or comb filtering.
@@curtisjudd thank you! You are the audio guru!
Just a note , a lot of mixers have phase invert switchers
Which cancels out phase probs , you can also phase invert when you mix the sound using something like Logic Pro
+Tarquin B nice point, thanks for calling that out!
Good point.
Although, as I understand, inverting the phase would primarily be of help only when two mics are used to record the same sound source but are placed at the opposite sides.
For example, when you mic a snare top and the bottom, you would flip the phase of one of the mics.
In this case though, because we are miking two different sources each being closer to one of the microphones, phase inverting or even phase alignment might not be of too much help. Maybe you could try it to get the best possible sound with minimal phase issues.
good, that you pointed that out. i'd like to add a general note, that you should not confuse those two things. phase invertion does not have anything to do with time, but with the direction of sound propagation and thus + or - voltage values.
looking at the waveforms in a daw you will see almost the exact same waveforms for both mics recording the snare drum, but symmetrically mirrored over the horizontal axis (invertion ;).
combining these two signals will, in theory, cancel the signal out completely (destructive interference - like in active noise cancelling headphones), whereas phase issues over time will create comb filter effects. (that is, destructive and also constructive interferences happening over the whole course of the frequency spectrum, depending on the distance of the two mics - when you begin to move one mic you will get this phaser effect shown here.)
in post you should also check your use of equalisers on two mics recording the same thing and being mixed at a later stage, as every filter, which is not 'linear-phase' will introduce phase shifting in the time dimension (having the most drastic effect around the cutoff frequency). in a nutshell, phase shifting is just playing back one signal slightly later than another, just what happens when you are mixing two mics at different distances like in this video. (btw phaser effects are build with combining allpass filters, wich won't filter any frequency, but change the signal's phase accuracy over the frequency range. combine that with a little modulation and you can simulate, what curtis showed here :)
Man, your channel is incredible. It has helped me a lot. Keep up the good work. You deserve more subscribers.
Thanks Fabricio!
That phase demonstration was awesome
Thanks.
I love your videos I wish you would get to the point a little faster in some. Just start with the 3 to 1 rule first then expand,
In newer videos I include an index so you can skip ahead. I think it is important for people who are newer to understand the issues first. Thanks for the feedback and I hope the index in the newer videos are helpful for you.
My dude sounding SPOT ON to a vacuum. I see the real purpose of this video. Keep on demonstrating that skill boss.
Seriously, thank you I've been looking for this video for years and JUST TODAY entered a mix of words that lead me here! The world will give you what you want, you just have to ask correctly.
Thanks and happy recording!
Hi, really great video. It did help me get a better understanding. I do have a question though. I have a Mix-Pre 3, a ME66/K6 and a Superlux S502. I wanted to record some ambient nature sounds with the S502 and highlight some sounds with the shotgun. How would you suggest positioning to record them at the same time or would it be better to record them separately and mix in post? Thanks again for all the tutorials and education.
Hi Jay, I'd probably record both simultaneously if you can to isolated channels and mix in post. Good luck!
@@curtisjudd Thanks for the reply. Much appreciated !
What kind or brand of the boom stands do you use to fix those shotgun mics?
And I'm agree, this channel is excellent. Very helpful and informative
For sit-down interviews, I usually just use these cheap boom stands:
When I need a taller stand, I use a K-tek boom pole, century stand and boom holderk: alexa.design/2nyVLjx
K-tek carbon boom pole: bhpho.to/2nyBKJP
Century stand: bhpho.to/2okD8gy
Boom holder: bhpho.to/2nyFU4H
Thanks!
In the music production realm this sound actually produced by phaser pedals. yes we guitarist do this on purpose haha
+Vautksch ha! Right. And adding distortion is another thing added on purpose!
When I was a kid long ago I'd put a phaser on my Rhodes and dayum you'd have such a fat, rich, synthy-sounding layer of sound for everything else, it was awesome.
Yes, constructive and destructive interference is “distortion”.
👍
Excellent discussion! Question: Is there a target db of seperation between the mics you are looking for? eg... by looking at the meters can I tell if I will have a phase issue when combining the tracks in post or into a live mix?
Good question Gregg. Interestingly I find that the default setting on the auto mixer feature on the SD 633 attenuates the non-active channels by 20dB. I find that this usually sounds pretty good. So in practical terms, you'd probably see a good 40+ dB of separation.
this was incredibly helpful. thank you!
You're welcome!
Thanks for your videos, especially this one as I was looking for info on using two mikes for two people. My question is; if you are using two different mikes, different brands or models, to what extent will that make the sound of the two voices completely different? I assume that the two sounds will be different. Thanks in advance for your answer!
It depends. Since they're each on different people, it isn't necessarily a problem.
Thank you for sharing knowledge. you are a good teacher.
Thanks Kris.
Thank you for the very interesting video!
You're welcome!
Thanks Curtis. Educational as always!
You bet and thanks for the feedback! 👍
Stinking measurement conversions! LOL Great information! Really appreciate these types of practical tips. Would be interested in what is the best setup if you are miking one subject with shotgun and lav for backup audio. Hard to get that 3 to 1 rule, but maybe a different angle or position because of patterns???
Thanks! Yeah, conversions. I'll get it figured out soon!
I don't usually worry about phase when using a lav as a backup mic because in post I will drop the backup channel altogether and at that point, phase is no longer an issue.
so do you use your boom mic as your main and the lav as the backup?
any particular reason or is it just that the boom sounds best to you?
and what are your go-to mics in both cases?
Booms are usually my first choice because they generally sound better than lavs. My go-to lavalier is the Sanken COS-11D and my go-to boom for indoors is the Audio Technica AT4053b. For outdoors, my DPA 4017b shotgun mic. Here's an overview of the mics I use: czcams.com/video/7Ou9ZVsDLEY/video.html In this playlist, you'll also find a piece specifically on the AT4053b and one on shotgun mics. Actually, there are a bunch of mic comparisons and reviews. I hope you find them helpful!
Curtis Judd thank you for your reply!
Yes! I've watched a lot of your videos and they have been a really good guide to give me an idea!
Thanks a ton!
I've zeroed in on the Rode NTG4+ at the moment, still not sure which lav to go for... got more research to do...
I'm a growing audio professional, so I'm looking for gear that is good quality and what would be a good value for money...
At the end of the day, we need to get the job done without compromising on acceptable quality and be affordable to the client.
And you Sir are someone I've learnt a lot from! thanks again!
Thanks Sankararaman, your kind words made my day.
Very very helpful information. Thank you!
You are welcome!
thanks for the video, very useful. one question, using lav mics, what is the minimum distance for the talent to avoid the bleed?
It depends on a lot of factors, but the farther apart the better. It is especially hard to avoid bleed with most lavalier mics because most have an omnidirectional pickup pattern. I generally aim to have people at least a meter apart unless there are factors preventing that. Then I clean up the bleed in the mix/post.
Again, great Information!!!
How much gain did you put to the channel of the shure SM58? (Sounds very good at the distance you were). By the way, your pre-amp is very clear.
Thanks!!!
Thanks Francisco, it’s been long enough since I shot this that i don’t remember the specifics but the SM58 usually needs about +55dB of gain.
Great video, thank you !
Thanks!
Great video as always - thanks! I'm curious, do you have any thoughts experience mic'ing 2 people using one boom pole? I'm pretty sure I've seen this set up before on TV sets but I can't seem to find anything online. Any/all feedback welcome.
update: I just did some more research and found this "stereo bar" (link below) - perhaps this is the answer. Any experience using one?
www.amazon.com/Rode-SB20-Stereo-Spacing-Microphone/dp/B00JR2DDW4?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_2
Hi Michael, Indeed, I have this very stereo bar, though I usually don't use it for interviews. The main reason is that it, by itself, doesn't have any sort of articulating adjustment to boom it over two people where I could keep the boom and/or stand out of the frame. Usually I use two stands/booms. Though if you added some sort of articulating connector or friction arm, you could probably make it work. Best of wishes!
thank zou that zou covered this issue. it is verz rare here but that was a solid episode :) Thank you!
Thanks.
annnd another great video from the audio expert. Very helpful vid, thanks :))
Thanks Kevin!
Curtis, I don't know if this has been done already, but have you considered making a set of quick ref or cheat cards on the rules and tips you know. For example the 3:1 rule and the mic placement with pattern pickups. I'm thinking 3x5 size cards on a ring. It could even be 3 point lighting. The reason is that I can't always instantly recall the rules and tips OR I might be working with someone who is unfamiliar, but with the mini diagrams I could show him/her what to do. Even explaining the pickup patterns. I think it would be a compact and useful piece of kit. When I saw the diagrams you had in this video it just sort of hit me. I'd buy a set from you if the price was right and I'm sure many other would as well. All the best to you.
Thanks Bill, interesting idea that never crossed my mind. I'll give that some thought!
It blows my mind that a video like this, with more concise info than an MIT physics lecture, gets 6,000 views, but a video where a cat wears ipod headphones gets 200,000 views.
I hate cats. Great video.
+Patrick Thompson thanks Patrick, your comment made me LOL, quite literally!
Thank you for all your videos. I have a question about recording an interview with 4 people wearing zoom h1n lav mics and how to avoid bleed. Is there a way to set the gain low enough not to pick up the other speakers? To make things even more challenging, we're in a tight space, so we're up against walls.
You’ll probably want to mix in post and automate/attenuate the mics during the parts where that person is not speaking. Or use directional mics while recording instead of omnidirectional lavaliers.
Very Useful!!!! Master of sound!!!!!
Thanks Jorge!
My issue is that when using 2 lavs for an interview and we're sitting about 5 feet apart, I too often get an echo. At first I think it's a sync issue, but the other mics are picking up too much of the other persons conversation. Someone suggested to turn the levels down (i'm recording manually) but then I think, if the person is talking soft, I'm just going to have to boost the audio in post and this would still yet again produce the echo? Your help is greatly appreciated.
Hi Carolina, Here's a follow-up episode that covers how to mix (adjust levels) when you are miking multiple people. You can do something similar in post. The secret is to record each person/mic to a separate channel that you can adjust independently of the others: czcams.com/video/UZ0ygMdIICo/video.html
Curtis. I've heard getting mics (capsules) as close as possible will help also. Is that right? also, what if mic have different polar patterns? will a shotgun and hyper-cardioid right next to each other interfere?
Hi Matthew, yes, mic position can help a lot. If the mics have different polar patterns, that's ok, just use each mic's polar pattern to reject sound from the other as much as possible. Happy recording!
Thanks for this. Recorded my first interview yesterday and learned about bleed Lolol. I get it now.
Experience is a very good teacher, even if it is sometimes brutal. 😀
Luckily I had separate tracks for each mic ;)
Hi Curtis, I'm having lots of issue when using two lavalier mics connected to a mixer for two people interview. There is a lot of reverb, even when the room doesn't have that much reverb. If I isolate only one track/mic, the sound is great, but as soon as I turn up the gain on the second track/mic, it starts sounding horrible. How can I fix that? Thanks for the awesome channel, it has helped me in many ways.
Hi! Here’s a video that covers mixing which can help. We show how to do it while recording but you can also do it in post as long as each person is recorded to a separate channel: czcams.com/video/UZ0ygMdIICo/video.html
Best wishes!
I agree with Mundo, your channel is so informative I can't even describe how awesome it is to get so much knowledge for free by just watching your channel!
Thanks sooooo much!!!
I got a question about microphone bleed. The scenario I am currently facing is: me and a friend are planning to record a podcast through two mics. Each of them on a tripod clamped to a table (with an adjustable arm). One Mic is the internal mic of the h1 zoom pointed to my mouth (pop filter attached to it), the other one an iphone X pointed straight to my friends mouth (selfmade pop filter attached to it). We try to have at least 60cm distance between the mics but still there is mic bleed. With this kind of setup, would you think sharing a microphone (zoom h1) and recording into one audio track would be the better alternative for our podcast. Or is there something we could do to use both of the mics and having the bleed issure somehow reduced.
It would be awesome if anyone could help me with this. I hope I described the scenario understandable and someone could give me some advice.
Thanks so much in advance to everyone on this channel! To Curtis, keep up the awesome work I will keep on recommending your Channel to other people who wanna learn about audio!
Hi Kai, This is a little tricky with the mics you describe. I believe the phone's mic has an omni-directional pickup pattern so it will almost always pick up the other person speaking. The H1 will do slightly better since it's microphones have a cardioid polar pattern, but since they are still very close together, there will still be some bleed. I'm not sure there's a lot you guys could do other than sit in two separate rooms and call over Skype and record with the mics separate from the skype call. Hopefully that makes sense. You would both need to wear headphones for the Skype call, of course.
@@curtisjudd thanks so much man! that helped a lot! We were thinking about doing the recording via Skype great idea. Is there any mics which suit a small budget which you'd recommend to use to keep the current scenario? So both of us could be still in the same room and won't have to face the bleed issue or at least minimize it.
(i am not pretty sure about prices yet, but I am happy to invest in some better equipment)
Thanks so much again for your great advice keep up the good work!
@@kaigatz Cardioid dynamic microphones are usually best for this. The Audio Technica AT2005 is quite good for this: czcams.com/video/EHgSC3C0pTw/video.html
Are two boom mics necessary to get two people talking? I do my interview in my personal office.
I'm undecided between a boom shotgun mic vs. 2 wireless lavs and 1 receiver.
Please let me know which you recommend.
Usually it is best to have a mic for each person in terms of audio quality, but if you need a simple workflow, a single omni-directional boom mic will make it so you don't have to do a lot of post processing. A single omni-directional boom mic will pick up more reflected and ambient room sound. So that is the main trade-off.
@@curtisjudd Thanks!!!
With the 1 receiver 2 wireless lav trasnmitter, I don't imagine there is a much post processing that needs to be done. But maybe I'm wrong.
Which 1 receiver 2 transmitter wireless lav do you recommend?
Please send me an affiliate link if you want the credit. Thanks again!!!!
If you need to buy right away, Sony makes this kit but it is a bit on the pricey end of the spectrum and is generally made for working with cameras rather than phones. So you'll have to use an adapter, most likely: bhpho.to/2TWfOZx
Deity has a new dual channel wireless system that is supposed to be released in the next month or so called the Connect. I'll have a review of it after they finalize the design and manufacture the first round.
Curtis Judd thanks.
I see that two other options are the comica, and the sarmonic.
Should I wait 1 month for the Deity system? If it’s going to be a great deal, maybe I’ll wait.
Thanks again!!!!
@@RealJustinZiegler I've had very poor experiences with the Saramonic wireless systems so I cannot recommend them. I have not used the Comica wireless systems but have had poor experiences with some of their other audio adapters. The Deity system will be less expensive than the Sony system (likely less than $800 for a dual channel receiver and two transmitters I am told) but only time will tell how well it performs. I'd wait if you can. But if you need to buy now, I'd go for the Sony system.
Really informative
Thanks.
Hi Curtis,
I need to record a video in a room with high reverberation. I tried with shotguns, but the result was less than satisfactory.
I would like to buy a couple of pics for these environments (mostly corporate videos) with a budget around 300USD or slightly above. Which mic would you suggest? Thanks in advance
Luigi
Hi Curtis, firstly great channel! I've learnt a lot from you, so thank you!
Secondly, I hope you can help me decide how to mic a two-person interview. My partner and I will be travelling, and we'd like her to interview women from across the globe, audio only. Needless to say, acoustically untreated rooms are the most likely environments. I've got a Zoom H5 on the way as an audio recorder, but cannot decide on which mics to get. I've considered handheld dynamic mics (with windshields, like an SM58), headset mics (maybe WH20XLR), or lav mics. We're wanting to capture quality audio, so I worry that if they don't have good mic technique, the handheld mics will be in and out of proximity, lav mics would capture more clothing/background noise (plus more involved to setup on person). I've considered headset mics to solve proximity issue, but windshields would be less effective against plosives. So I'm leaning towards the handheld mics via XLR into the H5, but not sure if I'm barking up the wrong tree. What would you recommend?
Hi Dominic, I would probably go with two RODE Reporter microphones. The reason I suggest these is that they do much batter at managing handling noise than the good old SM58 and they only cost a tiny bit more. Worth the extra cost to avoid all of the cable and handling noise that the 58s tend to pick up. Good luck!
RODE Reporter: bhpho.to/2vERmfH
Thanks Curtis, I hadn't considered handling noise, or the RODE Reporter mics! Given that they're omnidirectional, would they not suffer from excessive noise or bleed issues in a smaller non-dampened room (assuming the two talents are sitting ~1.5m apart?)? Also, would the Zoom H5 preamps alone make it a suitable recorder for the RODE recorder mics? i.e. if I have to raise the gain on each mic for recording purposes, would the noise/bleed/phase be exacerbated? Thank you again.
+Dominic Garczynski hi Dominic. Because the RODE Reporter is a dynamic mic, it does a nice job only picking up sound close to its capsule. Here's and example on a noisy show floor: czcams.com/video/4l0yNknm1dQ/video.html
The H5's ability to provide enough gain is the real question. Unfortunately I don't have one on hand to test it. Based on my experience with the H4n Pro and H6, it should be good.
Note, just in case, there will be some post processing required as there always is with recordings in less than ideal rooms.
Good luck!
Great, thanks again Curtis!
Hey Curtis. Quick question on your backdrop: I've watched your white background tutorial. Is the blue color a variation of that same technique? Are you just using a filter/gel over the background lights or is this the paper itself colored? Thank you.
Hi Jimmy, thanks for the question. In this case I used a daylight colored light on the white backdrop paper and a tungsten colored light on me. I set the white balance with light from the tungsten light on a gray card. I hope that makes sense.
Yes I think it makes sense. Thank you!
Should you always use 2 mics or record them at the same time on one mic in figure 8?
Figure 8 can work if they’re opposite one another. But might still need a room without too many reflections.
Super helpful. Thanks!
Thank you Jermaine!
I have just recently discovered this issue, and your video has been really helpful!
What would you recommend to do in the case of lavalier mics to avoid phase and bleed issues? Say, if I have to mic two people with lavaliers in relatively close proximity?
I would use a recorder with automix feature or mix in post and manually use faders to reduce the levels for the not-currently-speaking track.
@@curtisjudd Thank you for replying!Are there any affordable recorders now that support automixing? And if so, can you recommend one?
@@yawningmarmot That's the trick, and it depends on your definition of affordable. But the ZOOM F6, F8n Pro, and Sound Devices MixPre series recorders all have some variety of auto mix (or MixAssist plugin for Sound Devices MixPre).
@@curtisjudd I see. I've been eyeing MixPre 3 for a while, so it's good to know it has another feature I need, though it seems it's become out of stock now in most places. Anyway, thank you for the advice, it's very helpful!
Hi Curtis, thank you for sharing your knowledge about audio and equipments. I would like to ask for your expertise on an audio phase issue I recently ran into, though solved. You seem to be the person with an answer for it. my friend had a shoot the other day, the setup was a simple talking head with one stereo omnidirectional lav mic to a camera. and the exported audio was just a mix from lav mic with a piece of music in mono. the lav audio seemed to be out of phase, because some of my friends' phones would only played background music, while other phones played both fine, however, the audio certainly sounded thin coming from off the center. so my questions are, 1) how does out of phase happen with one lav mic, and 2) why certain phones would still play it while others wouldn't? Thank you very much!
If the microphone is a stereo microphone, that can introduce potential complications Usually, if the two capsules on the microphone are close, this shouldn't be a problem as the sound source will arrive at both capsules at the same time or very close to the same time. However, if they were off at all, that could create constructive or destructive interference - destructive more likely in this case given that some phones wouldn't play anything back at all. My guess is that some phones sum stereo signals to mono and those phones would not play it because the audio from the two stereo channels were 180 degrees out of phase. Phones which play back true stereo - to different channels - would still play the audio. My recommendation would be to NOT use a stereo lavalier microphone for dialogue or drop one of the channels in post. Best wishes!
I have a question, what do you call as a boom mic and a shotgun mic? Are you calling shotgun mic referring to the mic polar pattern? Sorry, I'm a beginner and I got confused. Good video though :)
A boom microphone is any microphone placed on a boom pole and suspended above the person speaking (or below in some cases). A shotgun microphone is a specific type of boom microphone with a long cylindrical tube with a lot of slits along the tube. This enables the microphone to have a more directional pickup/polar pattern and reject a bit more ambient sound.
@@curtisjudd Thank you so much for replying! I thought you were referring as a boom mic as an specific type of microphone. Got it! Thank you!
Hello Sir,
I am a sound student and I live in India. I have a Zoom H6 and Rode NT-G2. The problem I face is the mic demands high gain as compared to other shotguns which I don't like because of fader noise. What do you recommend I should do?
That's hard. Mic position will be key - get it as close as feasible to the sound source. You might try something like a cloud lifter, but ultimately I'd look to save up enough to upgrade to something like a DEITY S-Mic 2. Best wishes!
What are the red and blue circles with the lines suppose to represent?
People. The line indicates their faces.
Curtis, please explain how to record a long dialogue with 2 LAV mic - if people are really close together
Thx so much!
If they're close together and you must use two lavalier mics, it'll take mixing in post. If they're really close, you might consider using a single omni-directional boom mic instead. Or even a cardioid.
put one channel out of phase
Thank you sir
You're welcome.
Hi Curtis - I'm trying to do training videos for our adopters of rescue dogs. Capturing sound seems to be the hardest part when you have may be a handler and a trainer moving around outside. Can you suggest a mic or mics that would work. I'm thinking of buying the Rode Wireless Go for each of them, then recording to their smartphones? Would that work? Or is this a bad idea?
Hi DogsnHomes Rescue, the Wireless GO should do a decent job. The only reservation I have about the Wireless GO is that if there is anything between the transmitter and receiver, especially when working outdoors, it has a tendency to drop the signal. You might have a look at these two reviews I did of the Wireless GO and Sennheiser XSW-D wireless systems. The Sennheiser might be a better fit for your situation.
Wireless GO: czcams.com/video/UNfXmB_blwI/video.html
Sennheiser XSW-D: czcams.com/video/QMDg__BhIWE/video.html
@@curtisjudd I wasn't expecting such a quick reply. It is really appreciated and thank you for your recommendation
Hi, what if I use some near- coincident pair like ORTF or NOS for miking the piano. The distance between capsules in this arrays is about 20-30 centimeters. So to execute 3to1 rule should I place such array not greater than 10 centimeters from piano deck? Thanks
Hi Alexander, Im not an expert at miking instruments, so I’m not certain on the best approach for piano.
Curtis thanks for this info. I work for a school district and we changed our podcast setting once a month to have a student panel. We used 1 Saramonic mic B2pro or something like that and one Rode wireless go in a handheld stick. At the end of the recording we had echo or double audio getting into the recording. We Brough the audio through 2 different cameras. I never faced this before and I am not sure what I need to do. For future panels we want to set a lab mic to each person and I am aware this issue turns into a nightmare. (We have a Rodecaster pro and also a Behringer X18 mixer we plan to use next time). Any suggestion? Thanks!!
In post, you’ll need to cut the mic that isn’t actively being spoken into throughout the program.
i have this issue with run and gun walking car garage interviews with two lavs, not sure how to fix it
Have the people stand farther apart and/or mix in post - fade down the mic of the person not currently talking.
Great video , thank you
👍
Hi Curtis, yet another question for you... if one would want to put one boom mic between 2 people sitting close together what is the recomended polar pattern? Still on the fence with which to go for was looking at the mkh50 and the mkh416. Will probably mostly be indoor and usually one person but want the flexibility to use for 2. Thanks again!
Hi Luke, the 50 and 416 are both great microphones but neither are well suited for miking two people at once unless someone is actively cueing a boom back and forth between the two. Their polar patterns are just too narrow, especially the 416. Even if the two people are sitting very close to each other, you'll want at least a cardioid microphone (vs. lobar or super or hyper-cardioid).
That said, for indoor, I'd go for the MKH50. Maybe then add a much less expensive 2nd mic for the rare circumstances you do shoot a 2 person piece?
Curtis Judd yes that’s a good idea... I can get a pair of neuman 185’s for the same price as a single mkh50 but sound seems to have less depth to it... the 8060 also seems interesting... thanks again for the videos very informative and accurate - great for us perfectionists :) have you tested the mkh 8060?
Hi Luke, I have not used the 8060 but the 8050 is a staple in my kit for indoor interviews and talking head shots. Most of my episodes in the last 6 months have been recorded with the 8050. It sounds great on almost every voice I've used it on so far.
I would avoid shotgun microphones, including the 8060, if the main use case is indoor recording. They're fine if the space doesn't have too much in the way of reverberation and sound slapping off of hard surfaces, but that's often not the case. And when there is a situation with that reverb and the sound source is slightly off axis of a shotgun mic (e.g., like you suggested using a single mic for two people), you can get a rather intrusive warbling phase effect. This doesn't happen with non-shotgun small diaphragm condenser mics like the 8050 or Neumann KM185s.
great video. Can you do a video showing how to make background voices louder than the front voice. for example the use of a lav mic with audacity program.
Hi Omar, I'm not sure I follow. Do you have an example you've seen/heard somewhere before?
When I used my lav mic I sound clear and loud but the voices of the people in the background sounds really low. How to raise the volume on the people voices in background equal to mine.
Omar, if more/new mics are out of the budget, you can tape your lav mic to a stick and pass it to the current speaker. Tape down the cable to minimize noise, too. Using a stick or a rod minimizes handling noise as the mic is passed around.
+Omar Williams I agree with Derek. Ideally each person will have their own mic. In editing you can increase the gain when people in the background are speaking but it usually does not sound great.
Does 3 to 1 apply to lavs also. I had two people speaking side by side and both wearing a lab. Was wondering about 'bleed' and how that would affect the final mix. Ah seems you answered at the end. Still wondering how to tackle bleed in that case
Yes, but the trick with lavs is that they are almost always omni-directional in their pickup. The If you have the sound bleeding into other mics, the mix won't be as clean. Ideally, you would fade the channel for the non-active person (the one not speaking). We'll cover that in an upcoming episode on mixing.
well done
Thanks.
Sometimes especially with VIPs, hard to sit close enough to use one microphone.
Yes, totally understand. You can definitely use two mics. You'll likely just need to do a bit of mixing in post to eliminate the additional noise and mic bleed issues.
What about the Reverse polarity/phase switch?
That can help sometimes but sometimes when things are 90 degrees out of phase, even the polarity switch doesn't quite get the job done. Good thing to try when it is an option.
Thanx
👍
Curtis, I'm videoing a 2 person interview, I have the Rode wireless Go Lav mic and a Rode shot gun mic, the way I've done this in the past is using the Rode shotgun mic on a boom in between the 2 people just out of camera view, I've been recording to a Sony AX100 4k camera, I've since added a Nikon Z6. Would one of these cameras handle the sound better than the other? The final use of these videos is website. I'm a still photographer that shoots about 5% video, thank you again
Hi D, my guess is that the Sony has better audio circuitry. I have the Z6 and it’s audio input is terribly noisy.
Thanks!
Did anyone else read this as "milking 2 people"? lol
Ha! No milking here!
Thanks, most of my interviews are standing usung one hand held microphone plugged into smartphone taking video. When I do Sit down interviews, often with VIPs, I am experimenting with using both a IRigg lapel lav for the guest while I use a hand held. Both are connected to the phone with an RODE SC6. It appears the hand held is dominating the sound. Is it better to use two microphones or two lavs? Thanks Ken
If you can use two directional microphones (I don't know which handheld mic you are using), that is probably ideal from a sound quality perspective. However, I have had good results with a single handheld reporters microphone like this into my phone: czcams.com/video/4l0yNknm1dQ/video.html
Using an IRigg Mic, most of interviews are with coaches after a game or trade event speaker after an event in which we are standing and it easy to extend Mic back and forth. This is with Mic plugged into Samsung 7 Edge held on a stand.
I've had good luck with a single RODE Reporter microphone: amzn.to/2rtr7JK But you do have to have an adapter/interface which can feed enough gain to the mic for it to work well. I used the RODE iXLR: amzn.to/2rLn9bM
Hi Curtis, I recorded a little podcast with two Shure stage microphones into my Tascam dr 60d mk II using (dual mono I think). The point is, I recorded the audio with two microphones, both of which were putting mono data onto the recorder, for my little podcast. I am having an issue where one of the microphones cannot be heard on mobile devices. I know why it's happening, phones only are built for outputting single mono audio, but how do I fix it?
Hi JimineyBob, you need to mix that down to mono in the edit. Right now it is likely putting the first mic on the left channel and the second on the right channel. You need them both on both channels.
Who played music in the background?
+TutorialesPro my family :)
Hi! I have to set up a live stream with 5 speakers (all at the same time having a conversation), but I don't have microphones for each of them. What would be the best way and gear to set this up? It is a hybrid event, so there will be a live stream via CZcams and a live audience for which I need to amplify the sound. Thank you so much!
What mics do you have to work with?
@@curtisjudd I have a Takstar SGC 598, a Shure 55SH and a Sodtack ST800.
@@fgiraldoc88 Ideally, each person would have a dynamic microphone like a SHURE SM58 or a whole host of other dynamic microphone options and would be close-miked.
Small request. For future videos can you lower the text on the screen just a little bit? When I pause the video on my phone CZcams puts the title of the video right over the top of your text. Of course it might have something to do with the fact that I'm tired today and not reading so quickly. haha
Hi Bill, thanks for the feedback. Will see what we can do.
are you recording yourself on the sm58 bcz you needed the shotguns for the demo ?
It was so long ago, I don't remember.
@@curtisjudd 😁 thought so. thanks anyway, really like your style
thank you!
+LeifIsStrange you're welcome!
I just recorded a singer with one mic, who had a reflective wall about a metre behind her. She did the first verse with her head in front of the mic and it was fine. But then she moved off axis for the rest of the song, and I captured a slight phase or comb-filter effect on the quiet parts of her track. I think it was due to the reflections being delayed just the right amount of time to cause some frequency interference, and it manifested as phase instead of reverberation. Does that sound possible?
Yes, could definitely be the case. Which microphone were you using?
@@curtisjudd SM58. It was for an exam practical in a high school. Her first piece was in the middle of the room, and it doesn't have this problem. But for the second piece she wanted to stand beside the piano player. Oh well. You live and learn! I just need to note to the examiner that it wasn't an intentional effect that we added, and they'll try to ignore it.
@@NebulousWeb Interesting. Not something I've experienced before with a dynamic mic, much more common with shotgun microphones. But I learn new things every day so I shouldn't be surprised! Thanks for sharing!
does the 3 to 1 rule work on the basis of the inverse square law which as a photographer I'm used to using for light, please?
Similar concept, yes.
Curtis Judd twice the distance, 1/4 the sound, then.
I don't know the ratio of falloff for sound, exactly.
Curtis Judd i checked and yes sound does follow the inverse square law.
hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Acoustic/invsqs.html
Excellent, thanks Jenny!
How can I avoid the bleed on a two person podcast using lavalier mic?
Move the people farther apart from each other or place sound dampening between people (broadband absorbers/bass traps, sound panels, different rooms, etc.)
Great explanation. Thanks.
Hi there! Could this rule be applied to a noise rejection situation? Say a computer fan...
Absolutely!
Curtis Judd Thanks!
hey there i have a jvc gy hm 200 4k camcorder. every video i shoot it always has noise and grain i shoot with zero db gain, 25p 1080p and 1/50th of a second shutter speed, but i keep on getting noisy images what can i do to reduce that?
Reduce the gain/ISO setting and add lighting to your subject. :)
but the problem is that I can't go under 0db gain and even when i shoot in really good and bright situation i still have noise in the dark spots
Ok, I see. I'm sorry, I am not familiar with that camera. You might contact JVC's technical support. Best wishes!
Curtis Judd thanks
dude i just livestreamed with two mics and there is so much phasing that idk if i can make a video out of it 🤦♂
Hopefully you have a better idea of what to do to fix it for future recordings. 🙏
@@curtisjudd thank you for the help fr!
simply record each person on a iso track and cut between them in post.
Yes, definitely if you have the time in post. Sometimes we don’t have that option.
Important!!
Yes!
Uhm sir what is ur view on Azden SGM 990 for a presentation video like explaining things?
I am on a budget in here so i am gonna make sure the mic that i will buy serve me well.
Thanks
Hi Ya Mi, I haven't used the Azden SGM 990 so I'm not sure how well it works. Shotgun microphone are usually best when boomed above a person, Is that your plan?
Sorry took me long enough to reply.
Yes sir i am planning on doing some presentation video like you and i find the shotgun mic is the best for my scenario.
Well if u havent used azden sgm 990 can u recommend me a good mic around $100-$140 sir?
thank u so much for replying.
Will you be shooting with a phone or a camera for the video?
A camera sir a DSLR one i havent decided to buy one since i need to do more research on it first. but its gonna be a DSLR camera.
I tested this one with decent results: czcams.com/video/Ecs0GWaPtto/video.html
in motion pictures you normally don't use both mics at the same time
Mmmm, there are times, especially now that many directors want each of the main actors with a wireless lav in addition to a boom mic. And it is not unheard of to have two boom mics in a scene. Also, in video production, particularly corporate, we record panel discussions with multiple microphones quite often.
Curtis Judd I'm sorry that's not what I meant to say. what I mean is that in dialogue editting you normally go with just one per line. either the boom or the lav.
so normally phase is not an issue as you don't tend to edit both mics together.
Ah, yea, that makes sense. I'm sorry. Thanks!
Boom isn't some type of a mic. Boom mic is any mic you put on a boom pole, and most often that will be a shotgun mic.
"Boom isn't some type of a mic. Boom mic is any mic you put on a boom pole..." Perhaps his audience knows what he means by the term "boom mic"?
"...most often that will be a shotgun mic." That will come as news to people who own own cardiod or hypercardiod mics :)
He shows "a boom mic" like it's a type of a mic, which it isn't. Yes, I'm sure some of the audience know it (like me), so I'm pointing it out. If you say, cardioid or hypercardioid are used more often in the boom poles than shotgun, so be it. Although shotgun is hypercardioid I think. You can use whatever, it's just a pole.
Technically, you are correct. "Boom Mic" is a wide category. For those shooting indoors, that is often a super cardioid. For those shooting outdoors, that is more often a shotgun mic. I shall endeavor to be more precise in the future. Thanks.
Curtis Judd Unsubscribed. It's your channel, and of course you can do what you want, but I kind of like plain English, and I don't have the time for this guy's pedantry. I don't need to follow this, or any other channel, to be lectured on the fact that a pole is a pole.
I can't comprehend what seems to be your problem but it seems bigger than what we were discussing. Bye forever!
Danni sure is a good sport. :-)
Absolutely! She's always been supportive like this. Good luck on your upcoming excavation!
The title of this episode - "Miking 2 People" in the description, but "Micing 2+ People" in the video, reminds me of the great Mike vs Mic debate :)
Linguist Ben Zimmer in the New York Times: www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/magazine/01-onlanguage-t.html About Zimmer: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Zimmer
And from musician and linguist Samuel Bayer: www.sambayer.com/tirades/whymike.html (written in 2002, but with updates to 2017).
Question for Curtis Judd - did you spend a lot of time in the South Bronx, or are you just trying to please everybody?
I prefer "mic" but it gets confusing when you're mic-ing. I just haven't committed to one or the other just yet.
Hi Curtis,
I wasn't being serious. Hence the question of whether you have spent a lot of time in the South Bronx doing rap (highly unlikely, and getting the joke requires reading Zimmer's essay ).
Some people might find the question amusing, and might get a kick out of the links. If the weekly New York Times On Language essay, which the Times ran for decades, thought it worth writing about, and Mr. Bayer has updated what he calls his "tirade" about the right spelling for 15 years, the message might be that this debate is supposed to be fun.
Sorry if you, and perhaps others, took my comment seriously, and failed to read the links, which are, and were intended to be, rather less serious than such questions as how we achieve peace in Syria.
+Rory on a Bike I skimmed them and they made me smile. Thanks for that :)
How do you turn the mic off "a little bit"? LOL.
Off axis, not off. In other words, turn it away from the other mic and sound source.
sounded a bit like a flanger
Exactly.