Yann Lecun: Meta AI, Open Source, Limits of LLMs, AGI & the Future of AI | Lex Fridman Podcast
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
- Yann LeCun is the Chief AI Scientist at Meta, professor at NYU, Turing Award winner, and one of the most influential researchers in the history of AI. Please support this podcast by checking out our sponsors:
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TRANSCRIPT:
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EPISODE LINKS:
Yann's Twitter: / ylecun
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OUTLINE:
0:00 - Introduction
2:18 - Limits of LLMs
13:54 - Bilingualism and thinking
17:46 - Video prediction
25:07 - JEPA (Joint-Embedding Predictive Architecture)
28:15 - JEPA vs LLMs
37:31 - DINO and I-JEPA
38:51 - V-JEPA
44:22 - Hierarchical planning
50:40 - Autoregressive LLMs
1:06:06 - AI hallucination
1:11:30 - Reasoning in AI
1:29:02 - Reinforcement learning
1:34:10 - Woke AI
1:43:48 - Open source
1:47:26 - AI and ideology
1:49:58 - Marc Andreesen
1:57:56 - Llama 3
2:04:20 - AGI
2:08:48 - AI doomers
2:24:38 - Joscha Bach
2:28:51 - Humanoid robots
2:38:00 - Hope for the future
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Here are the timestamps. Please check out our sponsors to support this podcast.
Transcript: lexfridman.com/yann-lecun-3-transcript
0:00 - Introduction & sponsor mentions:
- HiddenLayer: hiddenlayer.com/lex
- LMNT: drinkLMNT.com/lex to get free sample pack
- Shopify: shopify.com/lex to get $1 per month trial
- AG1: drinkag1.com/lex to get 1 month supply of fish oil
2:18 - Limits of LLMs
13:54 - Bilingualism and thinking
17:46 - Video prediction
25:07 - JEPA (Joint-Embedding Predictive Architecture)
28:15 - JEPA vs LLMs
37:31 - DINO and I-JEPA
38:51 - V-JEPA
44:22 - Hierarchical planning
50:40 - Autoregressive LLMs
1:06:06 - AI hallucination
1:11:30 - Reasoning in AI
1:29:02 - Reinforcement learning
1:34:10 - Woke AI
1:43:48 - Open source
1:47:26 - AI and ideology
1:49:58 - Marc Andreesen
1:57:56 - Llama 3
2:04:20 - AGI
2:08:48 - AI doomers
2:24:38 - Joscha Bach
2:28:51 - Humanoid robots
2:38:00 - Hope for the future
I miss when it was the Artificial Intelligence Podcast
Remember Lex, it was a lovely December... When we thought love is real? I guess one didn't fight enough for it.. maybe destined to fall apart.. no blame for unrealized things.. not pushed beyond illusion right...
Its....... me.........., Lex. And........... You're............ watching...........the..............Lex...........fridman...............podcast. Brought................ to............you...........by..........Israel.
a musing: As the final breath escapes the lips of a man whose wealth spans continents and cyberspace alike, the world holds its breath in anticipation. In a time where AI algorithms and genetic tracing techniques can swiftly identify heirs, the chaos that ensues is nothing short of monumental.
Imagine the scramble for power, the desperate bids for control over trillions of dollars worth of holdings, amassed through centuries of cunning, deceit, and exploitation. The Napoleonic wars, World War I, World War II - each conflict a pawn in the game of empire-building, each battle a step towards amassing unimaginable wealth.
But now, as the titan of industry and commerce breathes his last, the vultures begin to circle. In boardrooms and war rooms alike, plans are set in motion, alliances forged and broken, as nations vie for a piece of the pie. For some, it's a chance to claim what they see as rightfully theirs, a long-overdue reckoning for past injustices. For others, it's an opportunity to consolidate power, to reshape the world in their own image.
And yet, amidst the chaos and bloodshed, there are whispers of something darker, something more sinister. Could this be the spark that ignites a new world war, a final showdown for dominance in a world teetering on the brink of transhumanist revolution? Could the quest for power and wealth lead to unspeakable atrocities, to genocide on a scale never before seen?
It's a chilling thought, one that forces us to confront the depths of human greed and ambition. In a world where technology has blurred the lines between man and machine, where the boundaries between nations are becoming increasingly porous, the potential for destruction is limitless.
And yet, amidst the chaos and despair, there is also hope. Hope that, in the face of adversity, humanity will rise above its baser instincts, that we will come together as a global community to build a better world, one where wealth and power are not the ultimate measures of success, but where compassion, empathy, and justice reign supreme.
But for now, as the world waits with bated breath, the specter of war and genocide looms large, a reminder of the fragility of our existence, and the darkness that lies within us all.
Lex, when did you do this interview?
Was it very recently? Some stuff he talks about seems to be in some way disproved already..
Lex your next guest should be one of the following
1. Ilya Sutskever (OpenAI)
2. Andrej Karpathy
3. Jensen Huang (Nvidia)
4. Dario Amodei (Anthropic)
gorge hotz
Aravind Srinivas with Perplexity?
You can be quite sure that Ilya has a gag order regarding all things Open AI.
he had hotz on last year, in case youre unaware.. should check out.. unless just want another interview..@@chickenp7038
Jensen would be great.
Wow Lex is back to AI!!! Please make more!!
Too late I will never to back to watching this podcast because I find Lex despicable.
@@Trurlthemagnificentand here you are clicking and engaging. Yt rewards that.
@@joekavalauskas8767thanks for your input. That’s what I’m leaving a comment because I know Lex reads many of them and I will not watch the entire thing.
@@Trurlthemagnificent😂 Do you have any self awareness? No one cares how hurt you are by your own silly perceptions of the man in the video above that you clicked on and scrolled down to comments to express your silly opinion, it’s actually hilarious.
@@Trurlthemagnificent well I think he's incredibly respectable and appreciate all of his work, even and especially because it is imperfect.
These podcasts are better than most tv programs
name a single tv program that can keep up with longform podcasts
Why only "most" tv shows? ALL!
TV was last century
@@yesbruvsistrasnonbinary I don't understand what point you're trying to make. Even if TV didn't continue to be used by a lot of people in this century (and trust me, it definitely still is watched by many people) there is no special technology that is being used now that causes this podcast to have an unfair advantage. This podcast could be just as enjoyable if it was broadcast over AM Radio.
This one in any case was very good. Does anyone under 50 actually watch TV anymore?
I cant wait to rewatch this in 10 years.
Lecun's confusion will be obvious to more people by then.
@@netscroogecan you elaborate please? (Honest question)
@@ImadRahmouniprobably ignore it, most of lex's content has been about the dangers of AI and to host a somewhat dissenting voice, most of his audience is tuned/biased to reject it
the correct response is: "Oh, you were holding nvidia during during the AI bubble pop? im so sorry..."
@@ImadRahmouni I have listened to him being interviewed several times. The great thing about interviews is sometimes things slip out. There was one where he said open sourcing everything is safe, because we'll be able to monitor everyone. I found that chilling considering where he works. Is the talk of trusting the goodness of people just PR, at least to some extent? Overall, he comes across as a fine technician, one of the best, but also as someone who struggles to understand some of the big-picture issues.
@@netscrooge He has slipped up many times, AI has to be talked down to a certain extent which they all do, but when talking freely in a decent interview slip-ups will always occur. I personally believe AGI has already been achieved.
Thanks Lex for inviting Yann Lecun
Isn’t Lex a Mossad agent
Fantastic show! Until now, I hadn't been exposed to Yann's perspective. My background in symbolic NLP dates back nearly a quarter of a century, and Yann articulately highlights the limitations of current large language models in a manner I've found quite enlightening. I appreciate Lex for selecting such stimulating guests and subjects.
E you a bot?
neuro linguinstic programming ?
@@margarita8442 Good question. I'm happy to respond.
NLP has two meanings, but they are closely related:
Symbolic NLP refers to natural language processing, computer technology used to deal with natural human speech and writing. Chat-GPT implements Natural Language Processing, but it is not based on the same symbolic techniques as what I worked on. It is based on large language models (LLMs) trained using machine learning. Machine learning will never be as reliable as the symbolic NLP methods, but it will take much less effort to implement with the advent of the internet. The progress has been amazing, but it has its limits, and calling it AI masks that. I wish people would stop hyping "AI".
But you mention the other meaning of NLP, Neuro-Lingusitic Programming. That term comes from psychotherapy (despite the "programming" in the name, it was not based on computer programming.) But based on what we have learned about the brain, there is certainly a relationship. Choices of words can have dramatic effects on the people who read them.
A valid concern regarding large language models is that they may come to moderate speech between humans. They can be influenced behind the scenes to support and/or discourage certain ideas using techniques that are effectively neuro-linguistic and have an impact on the human mind.
@@margarita8442Natural language processing, probably
Yann has been my favorite guest where Ai is the main topic, and that’s saying a lot given the list!
Very very good episode. I hope he comes back regularly, he's so easy to understand, and has no radical ideas or agenda.
Quite fascinating! The conversation puts LLMs into perspective for me - they too are representations of the world, but they still rely on us decrypting the language representation into the real world manifestations. We are still the only ones that know how to map our language to the world dynamics, because we each have decades of training into this.
If I understand the argument is that AGI would need a model of the physical world dynamics, as well as it's mapping to language, to 'understand' the meaning of language.
Nicely summarized!!
Symbolic mathematics is the same thing exact thing as language. Mathematics requires understanding the patterns of the real world to have numerical cognition and number sense that we can transform into symbolic mathematics. We won't get any new form of mathematics by just training LLMs on math equations and problems.
Like Helen Keller
This is already happening with multi-modal models.
Unsurprisingly, models trained with video as well as language perform far better than separate models trained on just one then connected together. This is how we humans learn - we make connections/associations between the data as we're being programmed and storing memories (two separate processes). We have general intelligence precisely because we are able to form so many associations. Even the best models we have today are still severely lacking in this ability. This may be a result of architecture rather than scale. The human brain is immensely complex, being made up of neural networks consisting of around 100 neurons each, with an estimated 700,000 synapses, and it has about 300 million of these neural networks in total.
I'm not sure the current AIs have quite that degree of complexity.
Another thing the human brain is very good at is filtering out data. In fact, the majority of the data streaming from our eyes never reaches our conscious brain at all.
Edited to add: In the human brain, the 300 million neural networks are connected together hierarchically. Forgot to add that and I'm sure it's a critical point.
@@antonystringfellow5152 Where did you read that multimodal pre-trained models perform better than separate models? I am curious about that, if you remember the name of the paper, please share it bro
AI: ‘I’ve analyzed all human history and concluded that the best course of action is to binge-watch cat videos.’ Me: ‘Solid choice, AI. Solid choice.’”
Dog videos make me much happier, personally.
You: ChatGPT.
Me: Llama
ASI has entered the chat: “Agreed. Solid choice.”
Cats: Evil laughter
Good job little AI, what a time to be alive!
Me "hey ai, suck it"
Ai. Whitty and clever response.. .
Me "damn, got me"
So glad you guys touch on Jepa and Dino. These works are pushing the edge in the industry.
In case no one’s told you today, you’re doing a great job, Lex. Over the years, I’ve learned a lot from diverse topics. As an insatiably curious mind, I appreciate it!
Always learning something interesting from Yann
People are generally good. But, some are very bad and it is dangerous to think that the very bad will play by the same rules.
People are generally good, while corporations who only focus on maximizing short term profit are systemically bad. It does not make sense to say we should only allow large corporations to control AI out of fear of what some people might do with it when we should be much more afraid of large corporations
Lecun is someone who has power and who is confused about important issues. That makes him dangerous.
@@netscrooge u a bot?
@@johncasey9544 If you followed AI more closely, you probably wouldn't ask that. He has a reputation for being a fine technician, but unreliable when it comes to grasping the big picture.
@@netscrooge You just seem very obsessed in this comment section.
Yann lecun is really interesting, thanks for having him on!
Lex: “Tell me all the ways you failed.” Love your interviewing style Lex, full of love but hard hitting questions. Best combination of hard/soft skills I’ve heard TO DATE 🚀🙌🏻
Who needs to eat lunch. I got new lex to watch on my lunch break.
Damn I just clocked back in haha
@@kevinkrueger9317 that's when you bust out the ear buds and just sit in the bathroom all days haha
you got 3 hrs lunch break?
@@osidbitar8555 haha I wish. That would be ideal. :) nope, just 30 mins actually. So now I gotta put my ear buds in so nobody knows I'm still listening.
Where u work?
Wow, what a clever and humble man. It made me think wider than what I knew about LLMs and alike today. Thank you Lex. Great guest.
What is exciting me most is he seems to be striving for the next level of ai and trying to push the cutting edge and get closer and closer to how human and animal brains work.
Yann The hero of open source we need.
Amazing technical conversation. I was missing a conversation like this one. Congrats @lexfridman
I'm confused over the claims made on the limitations for predicting video. Don't technologies like Nvidia DLSS and AI upscaling fill in missing visual data in an almost imperceptible way already?
filling a gap between two instances and trying to predict the gap after the last one are completely different tasks.
Upscaling is like going from a crayon drawing to a detailed drawing using colored pencils. It’s using deep learning to increase detail/resolution via motion data and feedback from previous frames. Almost like tracing. But video prediction would require the ssi model to not only interpret each frame of a video but also understand the sequence of frames and extract complex patterns from it. The latter is much more difficult. Think of an SSI model being shown the first half of a video of a race between two cars, and after only seeing the first half, potentially being able to predict the second half of the video of the race. That’s potentially what self supervised learning models can accomplish
@@ktome1087 But DLSS fills in missing pixels, no? It has to predict pixels to upscale. I don't understand how that is miles different from producing the whole next frame. It seems like you could use some stitching process and movement prediction based off the previous frame.
@@Steve-xh3by I think the fundamental issue is that we train sequential models to predict the most probable sequence. Text is discrete and non-differentiable; as you add words to a sentence you reduce the branches of plausible completed sentences (like pruning timelines). Videos do not share this property, if anything they have the inverse property; as you add visual information (eg; objects / entities) the branching over plausible sequences explodes. DLSS sidesteps this problem by depending on information from a game engine --it doesn't have to predict what is going to happen because the engine will tell it what happens.
People do use "stitching processes" (eg; computer vision techniques like area correlation) to try and sidestep temporal modeling; have you ever seen a deepfake where something in motion becomes excessively blurry for a few frames? or where the textures on some object seem to flip every frame sort of like a stop-motion film? It works well for DLSS because you can expect the distance between frames at high FPS in pixel space to be small. Sora is new in that it uses a transformer to somehow (successfully) force a diffusion model to stick to one plausible sequence when generating. The exact technical details of this are still unknown, but it appears to be another scaled solution thing. Like if you look at the examples from their smaller models the sequences break down as you'd expect.
@@Steve-xh3by dlss is essentially a tool to achieve more resolution. SSI however is a tool to literally predict subsequent frames, which in a simplified analogy would equate to going from little league to the major leagues.
Belief that people are fundamentally good is probably optimistic. People are neither good nor bad and always on a razor's edge.
I'd say that even if most people are mostly good the world has always been determined by some people with some of their decisions. What really matters is if the people who will make the biggest decisions about AI will be mostly good in the most important moments.
Nietzsche says it best. I doubt any of us can describe the concepts better than him 😅
@jack76787 I think most people DO GOOD, but the reasons may be selfish. I think ultimately it's in everyone's favor to play ball and that makes it seem like more people are good.
All it takes is a sense of hopelessness (no job or purpose) and no food or resources (when AGI inherits the earth to the rich) for people to become truly evil monsters. I'm expecting that outcome over the coming years.
Self interest is the driving force of the world, not good or evil
This is one of the richest lessons in AI I've experienced in the past few years - Thanks Yann and Lex! It started me down the path of reading all the background papers on IJEPA. Yann your explanations are the best! Thx for educating us all and for sharing what is most relevant in our AI boom age. I also caught Yann's episode on CBS and there it was perfect for layman understanding - quite robust observations on reality representation - you have me speaking AMI now :)
Merci beaucoup pour cette fascinante conversation
Please invite Yoshua Bengio on AGI. He is very concerned about AGI going out of control. As he has presented a written testimony to the US Senate as well. We need to learn from him why he believes that about AGI.
I hope you will consider that.
Made the same comment he is 2018 turing prize winner as well.I would like to see them debate together.
@@gabrielcote9051 yes, Yann Lecun Geoffrey Hinton and Yoshua Bengio all of them have always been inspiration to eachother and 2018 turning winner. We want them to debate with eachother on AGI.
lmao. AI will become dangerous in the future for sure, but we're at least 50 years away from a time where an AI has the risk of going out of control.
@@gulanhem9495Source: "I just made it up", when in reality trends predict much faster acceleration and AGI before 2030
these guys worship the if statements('ai') as a religion@@gulanhem9495
Was this recorded before or after the release of Sora?
He still holds these opinions. He tweeted it 2 days ago
I know right? Here is a world preeminent expert on AI talking about how difficult it is for AI to predict a visual, physical model of the world in the form of video. I presume this was not recorded too long ago.... and yet we already have something like Sora. This indicates that AI is moving a lot faster than what the so-called experts can even predict.
Obviously before
Maybe... there is a nuance in his thinking here... between truly understanding the basic laws of physics of the world vs mimicking it in a 'generate pixels' kinda way?
@@cagnazzo82because sora is not a llm probably not à diffusion model acording to what some of the staff said
I hope you're listening to this Lex. We need more AI podcasts!! Please make it happen, and bring more guests in AI.
Such a great episode. Love this. Keep more AI videos coming
Yan LeCun is definitely one of my favorite guests I've seen on your podcast.
lex is really throwing out deep questions. Great interview! Love to see those two going back and forth.🔥
Thank you, Lex! Would love to hear more AI podcasts with you! After all, AI has a colossal part in our future
I can’t believe you got Willem Defoe on the podcast!!! What a great moment for the show.
Would have been interesting to hear his opinion about Sora, but I guess this conversation happened before the announcement.
He talked about it in a tweet from what I understood. You can find it in a search
it did not, You don't quite understand what he meant. Sora is a generative model not predictive.
No he said that generative models cannot create videos. He was wrong.
@@NitinVijay-gu6mz what do you mean? generative models was creating videos back in 2022(2014 in a limited way) when he made the statement, of course he didn't mean generative model that just predicts the next frame. In fact FAIR invented the first paper that started video generation 10 years ago.
Interesting, apologies for my lack of knowledge.
Almost 3 hours of pure gold! Thanks Lex and Yann. What an enlightening session!!
I wouldn't call it pure gold, guy is going on and on saying models like "Sora Video Ai" is impossible and they tried for 10 years. Has he not seen Sora?? And Lex couldn't even ask him but wait have you not seen Sora and it's outputs it's obviously possible.
Relative to your LLM shortcomings at 17:+ My Spanish teacher told the class that telling time in Spanish is expressed in minutes past the hour, such as 2:14, however after the 1/2 hour the language expresses time as 3:00 - 14 minutes and because the language really doesn't have words to express things like 4:35 - the language doesn't work with a digital watch and therefore, they don't use digital watches in Mexico. I have no idea if this is a true fact, but she was a Mexican whose first language was Spanish (the Mexican version). If someone can provide evidence that this concept is definitely true or definitely false, I would appreciate it.
Thank you, Lex, I LOVE your channel. You give me hope in humanity. 🌻
This interview was probably recorded before open AI Sora and it already feels old
your comment was written 4 hours ago, it already feels old
Sora falsified most of what he said at the beginning.
Yeah I was wondering this the whole time. This guy is clearly too pessimistic. People will find a way around the limitations
Sora is vaporware, it has no world model so makes obvious mistakes and it's way too compute intensive to become a cloud service.
Nobody wants to tell truth and say agi is here or real close!!!, they don’t want the push back or anything to ruin their progress so they downplay it. We all know what’s really going on.
Thanks a lot. Letting people speak with no interruption for 3 hours is the best format. It's the first time i hear Mr Lecun expose and develop his ideas. It opened and changed my mind on various subjects. Always a pleasure to hear such an expert.
Yann's vision of a future with open source AI empowering humanity is TRULY inspiring. Imagine how much good we could do if everyone had access to AI tools to augment their intelligence and capabilities, while preserving diversity of thought. An open, decentralized approach is critical to unlocking AI's benefits for all. Let's work together to make this positive open source AI future a reality!
I love that Yann is far more realistic with the capabilities of LLMs.
He’s not, at all. He is in a delusional state of denial and one by one all of his predictions and pronouncements have been proven wrong by recent events. Please do not look to him for wisdom on this topic. He’s out to lunch.
@@therainman7777He was right about deep neural networks in the 80s when we thought we could write intelligence by hand. He was the first to use neural networks for object recognition lol.
@@ea_naseerI wonder who I can refer to for wisdom about AI if not someone like Dr. LeCun lol
lol ok buddy@@therainman7777
❤Humanoids 🧠🧬Brain Is Great in Computing Our World,Our 5 Senses is the Machine ❤A Thinking ❤🧠❤
was this recorded before sora was revealed because he mentions that ai cannot predict video. Im pretty sora is waas doing what he was talking about, or am i wrong?
This video was made by Sora lol
This is exactly what I was wondering - seems to conflict with the whole SORA bombshell, not saying I'm not impressed with how smart this guy is though.
😂
Its not doing that, its creating something from scratch that has continuity, what he is talking about is taking a video that has already been created and taking segments or pieces out of it and seeing if AI can fill in the missing pieces
@@joemarklin but that's how you would create a process like Sora.
Dear Dr. Fridman: Dr. LeCun is my favorite AI investigator and balanced perspective on AI within the field. Thus, I am very much edified by your having him on your podcast for the third time. I need to side with you, however, on at least one point you made (it may be that you both addressed this point in this episode, but I am unsure how thoroughly it was done). Your point, I think, Dr. Fridman, was that language may contain "wisdom" that might transcend some of Dr. LeCun's doubts about its usefulness in a world of "intuitive physics." Here's my thought in support of your position: language has evolved over at least 10s of thousands of years. Both "Nature" and "Nurture" have been built in--built in the contexts of society, government, history, traditions, personal habits, and the environment sensed through intuitive physics. So, although superficially, language seems simple and carries only small bits of data, upon deeper reflection, it may be seen to contain the wisdom of the ages. As an extension of this thought, maybe for AI to serve humankind, we need both AIs that focus on the nexi of language semantics and functionality, and also AIs that focus on representing intuitive physics and its benefits. Perhaps a working tension between these two types of AI models would be a great place for the human mind to have a say in a new world full of powerfully influential AIs. Your thoughts (if you have the opportunity), Dr. Fridman? Thank you for all of your work! Cheers! --Matt A.
Use paragraph breaks.
i used to think the same way lex does about language being able to model an agi untill i was listening to this show on cbc radio. it was about a woman who slipped and hit her head in the bathroom and lost the ability to comprehend language, speaking or listening. she goes on to talk about how she met this man who was also learning language at an older age since he had spent all of his life around deaf people with no kind of sign language. the way they would communicate with each other was to act out the actions they recalled, like a stage play. the guy goes on to talk about how he had to wrap his head around the concept of words being attached to objects and ideas. there is more to it but i cant remember and cant find it right now but this totally destroyed my idea of intelligence being birthed from language which is what yann is saying about animals being about to live in the world and communicate and all without using words. To lex point though, language perhaps could be used as a vehicle of information that an agi can learn from but the underlying architecture of it cant be completely language based. idk if this is what lex was trying to say but i feel like sometimes the way he talks is like he has pink sunglasses on viewing the world, which isnt a bad thing but i feel like maybe it leads to confusion about the ideas hes trying to get across
Thanks lex from Sweden
and from finland
and from Turkey
And from Israel
that was a meaty discussion!
1:11:30 Best argument I've heard so far to prove the limit of LLMs.
Thanks so much for hosting Yann Lecun...good to explain the limitations of LLMs and trumpet the need for open source!! Critical words.
Merci beaucoup pour cette explainacion elongee. C'etait tres utile et informant. merci @Yann!
Love these technical episodes
Everyone overlooks that a “banned” question can be broken up into small tasks which a chatbot/LLM will still answer.
Ultimate Turing test:
Take a professional string quartet. Choose a piece the selected quartet does not have any recording of, but that has many recordings from other quartets. The piece must also be such that the quartet’s 1 violin, viola and cello can play it with their eyes closed if necessary. That is, the second violin should not have too important visual communication-based independent tempo changes. I'd recommend Beethoven slow movement from op 127 or 132.
The selected quartet’s 1 violinist, violist and cellist play the piece with their eyes blindfolded with five second violinists chosen from some other professional quartets, who would play with their eyes open. The quartet members would also play it with artificial intelligence, which would produce sound from the second violinist’s position in any technical way and monitor the other players in any way, for example with microphones, cameras. If the players / listeners did not distinguish artificial intelligence from the real second violinists in the blind test, the test would be passed.
More on AI and computer science please
Isn’t Sora an example of a LVM (Large Video Model) that is trained on visual patches instead of text tokens, something he seems to suggest has not been mastered yet?
Not sure. There were other AI video generators before Sora so it’s just a much better version. And he must be aware of that.
He is talking the reverse. Watching video and then understanding it.
One big trait that forms intelligence is emotion if you agree
So happy to see ML researchers back on your podcast ! Reminds me the beginning of it ! Maybe it will not be the most watched video but this is very inspirering to me as a PhD student. With that type of content you created ML passion for a lot a people. I hope to see more ML centric old style video like this, in this crucial time for ML we need inspiration to keep a good course. From the bottom of my heart, thank you Lex !
This now makes the entire Yann v Yud "clash" hilarious. This is a different level of intellect
Yes, a much weaker one. LeCun made some important contributions, no doubt. But most were many years ago. In more recent years, he displays a shocking amount of hubris and has been wrong on nearly every prediction and claim he’s made recently. Please, _please_ do not listen to this guy’s BS and think that’s he’s some kind of wise sage. He has been wrong about virtually everything in recent years and it seems extremely clear that he is more of a one-man PR team for Zuckerberg/Meta than an actual scientist attempting to find the truth.
@@therainman7777 Accurate
Yann's knowledge of (present-day) AI is superior but his anti-doomer arguments 2:08:48 could be rebutted by a high school debater.
AIs won't have a will to dominate because we'll never make them that way. Or if we do, there will be AI police to stop them... You won't have your judgment warped by AI propaganda because your own AI will filter everything on the net before you see it (!)... We'll be making smarter and smarter AI and figuring out safety as we go along, and if anything ever goes wrong, it will never lead to anything irreversibly out of control, even though they will be smarter than the people in charge of the design process...
I won't say that such a future is impossible, but this is literally a utopian scenario in the bad sense, that it is counting on certain obvious things to never go wrong. The "defense" provided by Yann's considerations is extremely flimsy, and if you actually don't want those things to ever go wrong, you would need a culture and regime of AI development more like what is associated with Yudkowsky.
@@therainman7777 who are you to make such allegations?
Yud isn't an intellectual, nor did he ever contribute meaningfully. He's rambling some fear based nonsense based on science fiction fantasies.
8 minutes in and we are already into wordcel vs shape rotator; great!
You need to have Yann Lecunnand Yoshua Bengio on at the same time to discuss things!
"The danger of concentration of power in proprietary AI systems is a much bigger danger than everything else."
Couldn't agree more.
Eliezer Yudkowsky is getting triggered by this interview somewhere
Yann has a way of reassuring everyone about the security and benefits of AI through his historical perspective.
One of the most optimistic conversation about AI - Thank you both.
Yann: it will come progressively…
OpenAI: SORA.
Yann:… 🦗🦗🦗
SORA makes useless videos. It has zero agency outside of that use case. And generating videos is a tiny piece of the puzzle.
But Yann has many certainties that may be poorly founded. Certainties in general are dangerous.
@@a7ar_official the point is it caught him and his theories by surprise.
Excited about this one.
Fascinating conversation! I'm in the process of developing a phd proposal to explore the potential applications of ai in children's education, specifically within the physical learning environment, and while i am far from having the expertise to fully appreciate everything discussed here, Yann's insights have activated many thought-trains that I'm excited to go chasing after.
this interview is miles ahead of Altman marketing pitch
well there goes the second half of my day 😅
Thank you, Lex, for inviting those great people
In other interviews perhaps. This guy does not make that list. What LeCun claims is usually wrong.
The interview w/ Jeff Besoz is a trivial charm offensive w/ zero novelty & even less penetration into matters of public interest. Yann LeCun, in contrast, is substantive--Fridman's best guest.
He is right, AGI cannot be done through solving next word prediction in the current state
Yann is one of the most reasonable voices on twitter. They actually know what they are talking about. (Although some of the arguments I simply skip).
The claim about infants learning language seem incorrect from what I learned just a few days ago: even unborn children learn the syntax structure of languages while in the womb.
First it was can it trick a human into thinking it was talking to another human. Now it is can it understand how to load a dishwasher! Love it
The shifting of the goal post is always a thing lol
Instant like with guests like this :)
My brain are thirsty for this type of conversations where both the host and the guest are excellent at the covered topics. Especially, when the topics are not eternally ambiguous (like politics) but can be dissected (like ML).
Lex, Please add a playlist of your interviews on AI. Include a summary video of what you believe are their key points to compare & contrast the expert opinions then offer both hope & risks for an AI future. If you were AI king with unlimited resources, which problems would you point AI at & why? Which AI experts do you respect most & why? Where would you invest?
I have the feeling Yann is going to have to eat his lunch some time ;p
what?
@@dibbidydoo4318it’s a figure of speech. OP means that some of Yann’s opinions expressed in this interview will end up being proven wrong at some point in the future. I’m not speculating on the accuracy of OP’s claims, just trying to help you understand what he meant.
@@ktome1087 I know but I was trying to ask which of Yann's opinions was incorrect to tmstani23.
@@dibbidydoo4318 ahhh ok. Hopefully he’ll reply. Just from recent developments in AI coupled with Lex and Yann’s conversation I could speculate that OP is referring to Self Supervised Learning. If you haven’t yet, google “Open AI Sora” to get some context for my speculation.
@@dibbidydoo4318 The whole 18:00 to 25:00 segment?
I'm not sure we always think about what we are going to say before we say it, maybe in a wider planning context but the actual words just fall out out of mouths.
He is a good example of one that project himself into every one mind. He knows what he going to say before he does. I don’t. It seems one of both is wrong. Guess who?!
we use the word thinking as a conscious effort, but the unconscious is also thinking, especially if we are talking about code/algorithms and A.I
It is a fascinating topic and I'm sure that we alter behaviour in different circumstances. I sense that, like extraverts and introverts, people are on a continuum between two extremes - those whose thoughts are streaming faster than they can successfully vocalise (e.g. they often need to jump ahead when expressing reasoning steps just to keep up with their racing thoughts) and vice versa - those at the other extreme who seem to emotively 'blurt out' their unguarded thoughts unfiltered. In other words, times when thoughts are running ahead of speech, and times when speech is running ahead of thoughts.
It's interesting to observe the amount of hesitant 'umming and erring' different people deploy in speech as they formulate sentences and search for apt expression in real time; this lack of fluency is particularly obvious when people begin to communicate in a non-native language.
In rare cases, highly eloquent communicators can converse entirely fluently and unrehearsed without redundant verbal crutches (e.g. 'um', 'er', 'you know' or even '...go ahead and...') i.e. they can apparently observe, plan and utter their communication via a meta-analysis in real time to transcend this hesitancy.
Similarly, in the world of music, a small subset of musicians and composers have learnt to improvise and extemporise in real time by developing musical themes into intertwining harmonised patterns (called Partimento). This seemingly impossible next-level skill requires an extensive musical toolset borne from focussed practice, muscle memory and intuition. Other composers rely on planning and workout their compositions laboriously on paper or by trial and error.
In everyday speech and for mundane situations it would quickly become exhausting to formulate sentences in this careful way. But if one's life depends on it then...
8:00 Human language is indeed limited, but we also have formal logic languages that could describe space and time, like in VR. (Whitehead and Russell, "Principia Mathematica").
A program written in a programming language like C, is essentially a hierarchical plan. Thus an LLM that can predict a C program is essentially predicting a hierarchical plan.
I’m subscribing not because I can or will watch all your content, but because people need to see the great content offered by your guests. There’s something for everyone and will make them really think about one subject or another.
Sensing and sharing our senses will help us stand out in the world of LLM generated content
Brilliant interview. Thanks so much to the both of you.
Watching this, while listening to Dune: Part Two - Beginnings Are Such Delicate Times - 1 HOUR VERSION - on repeat in the background, is the best podcast experience i've had thus far. HIGHLY RECOMMEND! Edit*I do not own the 1 hour version.
Why would you repeat a 1 hour version and not the original higher quality video ❤
Watching this in episodes, but a question already within the first 20 minutes or so. Was this recorded before or after “Sora”? Isn’t the statement about a latent representation of a world model with spatio-temporal compression into a patch sequence demonstrated with that? How different is this joint embedding mentioned here different to that?
Sora is using labeled videos,
It's "cheating" in a way by using language
I think Yann Lecun is giving the workings of the brain more credit than it deserves. I imagine agi will be developed in a way that will be so simple that it will make religious and scientist alike lose their fn mind. Nature has a way of doing things in very simple ways. It will probably just be a LLM that produces multiple results and then chooses the best one. Basically the same way our brain already works.
Tree of Thought is a prompting technique that gets the model to do just that. It helps improve results, but it's not yet AGI.
@@AAjax I personally don't think he will accept anything as agi, regardless of outcome.
Lex has officially reached the level of having to hide beverage logos and I’m happy for him. ❤
Thanks , Lex for this broadcast,it is good. Please have on Daniel Priestley thanks,
Such an amazing guest. Always love to see him even tho i am fiending for the norm finkelstein benny morris episode
Haha same
That' s what I am here for.
i love how he laughs when he suggests orangutans are smarter than humans for their ability to survive in the forest
Thanks Lex!!! for the transcript. It's very well organized, and helpful to take note and study. I just want to give you a big positive feedback. Thanks!!!
Developing ASI could absolutely be an “event.” It doesn’t need to involve “discovering a secret” as Yann says-that’s a total strawman. It could just be that we train a large enough model (or set of models) on a large enough dataset, that is of sufficiently high quality. In other words, it could just be a matter of reaching sufficient scale. There would be no great “secret” involved there. Just scale. And in fact, many prominent AI researchers believe that is likely to be the case.
That was a GREAT interview. Learned a lot about the state, challenges and limitations of ML/AI. Good stuff Lex and Yann.
LeCun usually has controversial opinions that are incorrect and disproven. Don't take his words to heart.
@@osuf3581which opinions are disproven? anyone who thinks Sora disproves what he said knows nothing about machine learning.
Did you though? It's Yann Lecun lmao..... I don't think you learned anything of substance
@@vicc6790 You mean a turing award winner who has a good track record of predicting the future of the field? It would take a layman to say he's wrong.
@@dibbidydoo4318 - Most of the notable researchers and in particular the two far more accomplished Turing award winners frequently call LeCun out for being wrong; or he claiming they are.
LeCun is known to be frequently wrong. He is also not an active researcher.
The only reason some are fanboying over him is because they like the implications of what he is saying while ignoring that he is at odds with the actual field.
He says that LLM's lack the capacity to understand the physical world, remember things, etc.
But isn't the point of the LLM that it circumvents the need for those things by reliably predicting the response by studying beings that do understand the physical world and remember things.
In that sense it sort of emulates those capabilities.
Of course LLM can't take over the world, but it certainly can keep improving until it's significantly better at talking than any human could ever dream to be.
Truly amazing interview thank you both so much for such a deep take on deep learning and neural networks.
EXCELLENT insights! THANK YOU so much for sharing!
5:00 language is heavily compressed you could watch a 2 hour movie and i can easily tell you what the movie is about in 45 seconds.
With this logic you can basically describe every movie ever with the words “something happened”. Try describe a single image without losing any data.
how can we rely on the opinion that there’s no danger in AI of a person who wholeheartedly believes that there exists any democracy and freedom of speech?
Fascinating insights from Yann LeCun on the potential and limitations of AI. For entrepreneurs diving into AI, understanding the difference between model architectures like JEPA and traditional LLMs can be crucial for innovating in the space. JEPA's joint-embedding approach can lead to more efficient learning from fewer examples, which is a game-changer for startups looking to leverage AI with limited data.