Hello Fred I would like to ask can this technique be done with copper too or only silver and gold I would really love to learn but cannot use expensive metals
Hi Helen, I am never one to tell someone that they cannot do something and I suspect that bonding copper to copper eutectically would be difficult using this process. The copper carbonate used in this process deposits a minute amount of copper when heated and this small amount of copper alloys to form the lower melting temperature alloy at the point of contact between the sheet and the spheres. Using copper on copper would not create this lower temp alloy. Perhaps you could use a silver bearing compound that would mix with the copper at the point of contact during the heating proceedure. This is not something that I have explored.
nice video I have tried this a few times and feel that to get accurate size granules the best thing is to make very very fine jumprings then proceed to melting them in this way the uniformity will not be an issue eg. no need for sorting.
i have been making granules for years now, and the way i learned how to do it, is to melt say a silver wire over a bed of ground up charcoal, with a charcoal block placed in the center that is at an angle, thay roll off the charcoal block landing in a coushaning bed of charcoal dust, you end up with perfectly round granules, no lumps or bumps, and not hollow, you can get some as small as a grain of sand, then just grade the granules you get, and store them separate, i find just melting them on a block tends to make them hollow alot, or there is always a concave bottom to the granule.
Ashley. If you watch the video carefully you will see that I tilted the charcoal block and as the granules melted they are perfectly spherical as the drop into the water tray. I do not get flats on any of the granules. Your method works for you and I may try it sometimes
Tradução PT-BR Narrador/Entrevistador - Os etruscos eram também mestres trabalhadores do ouro. E conhecidos por seu fio de ouro, ou filigrana, como era chamado. E os pequenos pontos de ouro em seus trabalhos conhecido como granulação. Frank Zweig é um famoso metalúrgico do Arizona e também historiador de metais. Eu pedi para Frank ajudar a enteder o que os etruscos faziam ao fazer esses lindos filigranas e granulações. O que Vamos fazer aqui? FZ - Eu estou fazendo esses desenhos, algo que era usado nos tempos etruscos em algumas decorações. Eu estou separando igualmente estes fragmentos que criei. Os etruscos eram conhecidos por fazer alguns desses de apenas um décimo de milímetro de diâmetro. NE - Eles deviam ter uma ótima visão para conseguir fazer isso. Eu imagino que não conseguiam fazer isso por um longo período de tempo. FZ - Eu suspeito que eles usavam crianças para diagramar isso. Agora eu vou acender o maçarico e... NE - Eu vou precisar esperar minhas sombrancelhas crescerem de novo depois disso... FZ - Agora eu vou cuidadosamente aquecer até esses carinhas virarem esferas. Às vezes você consegue encontrar alguns exemplos como este em que eles não estão perfeitamente redondos, mas eles não queriam gastar tempo para fazer o processo de novo. NE - Estes são os "grânulos" da granulação. FZ - Correto. NE - E ninguém percebe até sentar com alguém como você a incrível quantidade de trabalho e detalhe que está nesse processo. E a quantidade de fadiga nos olhos que isso produz em um longo período de tempo. FZ - Sim... Este é o cobre que permite que os grânulos se combinem. E eu vou usar um mandril aqui. O mandril é só algo que vai ajudar a moldar esse fio no formato que quero. NE - Eu não sabia que você podia fazer tanta coisa com ouro, enrolando ele em volta, moldando em diferentes formatos. FZ - É um material formidável. É um dos metais mais maleáveis. NE - É um trabalho tão delicado! Algo que estou aprendendo aqui é que eu preciso checar meus olhos. É tão fino e detalhado... As oficinas etruscas, como você disse, usavam crianças para serem seus olhos e provavelmente se tornavam aprendizes muito cedo. FZ - Esse é um momento muito delicado da operação aqui. Apoiar nesse "ninho" de fio de liga de ferro, faz com que o calor se distribua por todas as direção, de baixo... NE - Deve ser muito difícil fazer com que os grânulos fiquem todos do mesmo tamanho. FZ - Isso que é o complicado, de fazê-los todos do mesmo tamanho. E aí, depois de fazer isso... Eu pulei algumas etapas, porque não queria gastar o tempo de soldar individualmente cada um deles aqui. NE - Nos trabalhos etruscos, ainda que possamo perceber que os grânulos têm alguma variação, temos a impressão, olhando o trabalho, que existe uma certa similaridade nos tamanho que realmente é notável. Acho que isso te dá a capacidade de apreciar como essas técnicas antigas eram difíceis. Quero te agradecer pela oportunidade de nos abrir essa janela para o passado. Eu nunca mais vou olhar para essas filigranas e granulações da mesma maneira.
I purchased some copper carbonate and was wondering what preparation must be done to use it on silver. I tried mixing some in water and has some success attaching large granules of sterling silver to a sterling sheet. Unfortunately I've turned all my on hand fine silver into sterling so will have to wait to try it on fine silver. Do you have any suggestions for me? Do you think I could use corn starch instead of the tree sap?
I have not used the copper carbonate on sterling silver. What I have done is to use fine silver for both the granules and the sheet. I coated the silver sheet with a microscopic layer of copper by laying it in a glass tray with a small amount of pickle that has been used to clean copper. This means that copper ions are floating in the solution. I then quickly touched each of the four corners of the fine silver plate with a thin iron poker and the iron causes a galvanic action that lightly plates the fine silver with an invisible layer of copper. I then remove the copper and rinse it in water to remove any pickle. Keep fingers off the surface. I then arrange the granules onto the silver plate using a diluted "batterns" flux. If there is too much flux I wick it up with the corner of a tissue. Once dry I then apply heat to the surface as I did with gold and watch until the metal glazes over with a reflective shine. Do not overheat or you will end up with a mess. This should secure the granules in place. I suggest experimenting with small samples. Best of luck!
I agree with you both that the Etruscans did not have access to a blow torch. There is documentation of a reed tube used to add oxygen to the fuel of wood charcoal to increase the temperature of the fire much like a bellows is used on a forge. I used a torch for convenience and to save time. The use of children and youth to place the gran my speculation alone as my eyes have deteriorated over the years and I now need glasses to augment my eyesight for placement of the granules.
Something you may be unaware of, since you don't carry my affliction. I am extremely nearsighted, over 10 diopters in each eye. Because of this I can see with ease things that others need a magnifying lens for. I find flaws in stones that are missed by other jewelers using a 10x loupe. Nearsighted craftsmen can do finer work than those with normal vision, and are more likely to be the people that were placing those granules than children.
Marc, Thank you for your insight. I suspect you could be right. I am not an historian and it was my speculation that it took youthful eyes to do this work. Thanks! Greatly appreciated.
The green powder is copper carbonate. Under the correct conditions of both heat and the presence of carbon, the copper carbonate will smelt copper. This is simply explained in this charming video. czcams.com/video/8ocYcA_xi98/video.html. Hope this helps.
Dear Fred, As for the copper solution, many compounds were used - malachite and turquoise are good sources. Malachite is an important source of CuCO3. CuO can be used (simple copper oxide). CuOH can be made by annealing copper in the presence of an alkaline. Even more simple, CuCl2 (copper chloride) can be produced by painting salt on copper, heating it until it become a crust and then annealing the copper. Or you can make CuSO4 by treating copper with H2S04 (which takes seconds). This technique can be used for all sorts of shapes, not only balls. What I do not know - but would love to know (finding no literature on it) is if the same technique can be used to fuse palladium 950 to gold. Perhaps you know? Best regards.
Hello Dordi, Thank you for your the additional information. I suspect there were other compounds found in minerals that could have been used in the granulation. As I recall John Paul Miller used copper oxides when bonding different shapes of gold to each other. My experience with palladium is nil and have no input on whether this process might be used to bond palladium to gold.
Před 3 lety
Is it possible to make real granulation (no solder) with sterling silver (granules and metal sheet)? Or its not possible because of high content of copper in sterling silver and adding another copper will not reduce melting temperature (eutectic temperature)? If it is possible, please describe a full eutectic granulation process with sterling silver. Thank you.
Před 3 lety
@Broom Hill Gypsies Thank you for your response. But is it anything what I can use instead of saliva? Using saliva is so weird. And please, what is "corona flame"?
Isabel, I suspect that I used 20 guage iron wire. I coiled it on a rod and then made coil into a ring. This allowed me to heat from both above and below.
@@isabelrowan6776 If you are interested in working is silver granuation I suggest starting off using fine silver for both the plate and the granules. The granules can be made in the same fashion as the gold granules. There is a simple way of charging the silver plate with copper. Use pickle solution that you have quenched copper into. This will provide copper ions within the pickle solution. Then decant a small amount into a glass tray. Enough so that the silver plate you are going to use is covered by the pickle solution. Now use an iron rod with a sharp point and touch each of the four corners of your silver plate. Do not linger as you touch the corners. Do it quickly. This process will plate a minute layer of copper onto the fine silver base. If you so choose you can place the fine silver granules in the pickle along with the fine silver plate. Remove the fine silver plate and granules from the glass tray, rinse the fine silver plate and granules and dry them. Now you can make up a light solution of gum tragacanth and apply some to the fine silver plate and then apply each granule to the plate with a fine tipped brush. Now place on the iron wire trivet and allow it to dry slowly. Once dry you may apply the flame from above and below. When you see the reflective flash, quickly pull away the flame and the granules will have been bonded to the fine silver plate. It may take a few times before you get the hang of it. The amount of fine silver being used is minimal and inexpensive. Good luck in whatever you do and please stay safe.
olfursson kyllian good point-i think these guys have no idea how to mass produce granules. Doubt the Etruscans even needed a blowtorch, Pour molten gold into a pot full of fine charcoal dust and you get loads of granules-i saw it on Filigreenus channel.
m3sca1 well more than the fact that the etruscans didn't use a blow torch , the fact is that blow torch were not invented until the end of the 19th century !
I agree with you Lynn. I suspect the may have used a charcoal furnace or reed blowpipes. The probably did use a natural gum like gum arabic and they did have access to copper carbonate since that was used a eye makeup and paint coloring. I am so glad you enjoyed it.
Great job Fred. I really enjoyed this. Imagine that they didn't have the same tools as you did. Thanks for sharing!
Beautiful. Subscribed.
Thank you!
Hello Fred I would like to ask can this technique be done with copper too or only silver and gold I would really love to learn but cannot use expensive metals
Hi Helen, I am never one to tell someone that they cannot do something and I suspect that bonding copper to copper eutectically would be difficult using this process. The copper carbonate used in this process deposits a minute amount of copper when heated and this small amount of copper alloys to form the lower melting temperature alloy at the point of contact between the sheet and the spheres. Using copper on copper would not create this lower temp alloy. Perhaps you could use a silver bearing compound that would mix with the copper at the point of contact during the heating proceedure. This is not something that I have explored.
It all adds up to gage of the wire differences and same exact size in length cut for same exact size bead. Melt and gravity roll onto tray. Ciao!
nice video I have tried this a few times and feel that to get accurate size granules the best thing is to make very very fine jumprings then proceed to melting them in this way the uniformity will not be an issue eg. no need for sorting.
i have been making granules for years now, and the way i learned how to do it, is to melt say a silver wire over a bed of ground up charcoal, with a charcoal block placed in the center that is at an angle, thay roll off the charcoal block landing in a coushaning bed of charcoal dust, you end up with perfectly round granules, no lumps or bumps, and not hollow, you can get some as small as a grain of sand, then just grade the granules you get, and store them separate, i find just melting them on a block tends to make them hollow alot, or there is always a concave bottom to the granule.
Ashley. If you watch the video carefully you will see that I tilted the charcoal block and as the granules melted they are perfectly spherical as the drop into the water tray. I do not get flats on any of the granules. Your method works for you and I may try it sometimes
Tradução PT-BR
Narrador/Entrevistador - Os etruscos eram também mestres trabalhadores do ouro. E conhecidos por seu fio de ouro, ou filigrana, como era chamado. E os pequenos pontos de ouro em seus trabalhos conhecido como granulação. Frank Zweig é um famoso metalúrgico do Arizona e também historiador de metais. Eu pedi para Frank ajudar a enteder o que os etruscos faziam ao fazer esses lindos filigranas e granulações. O que Vamos fazer aqui?
FZ - Eu estou fazendo esses desenhos, algo que era usado nos tempos etruscos em algumas decorações. Eu estou separando igualmente estes fragmentos que criei. Os etruscos eram conhecidos por fazer alguns desses de apenas um décimo de milímetro de diâmetro.
NE - Eles deviam ter uma ótima visão para conseguir fazer isso. Eu imagino que não conseguiam fazer isso por um longo período de tempo.
FZ - Eu suspeito que eles usavam crianças para diagramar isso. Agora eu vou acender o maçarico e...
NE - Eu vou precisar esperar minhas sombrancelhas crescerem de novo depois disso...
FZ - Agora eu vou cuidadosamente aquecer até esses carinhas virarem esferas. Às vezes você consegue encontrar alguns exemplos como este em que eles não estão perfeitamente redondos, mas eles não queriam gastar tempo para fazer o processo de novo.
NE - Estes são os "grânulos" da granulação.
FZ - Correto.
NE - E ninguém percebe até sentar com alguém como você a incrível quantidade de trabalho e detalhe que está nesse processo. E a quantidade de fadiga nos olhos que isso produz em um longo período de tempo.
FZ - Sim... Este é o cobre que permite que os grânulos se combinem. E eu vou usar um mandril aqui. O mandril é só algo que vai ajudar a moldar esse fio no formato que quero.
NE - Eu não sabia que você podia fazer tanta coisa com ouro, enrolando ele em volta, moldando em diferentes formatos.
FZ - É um material formidável. É um dos metais mais maleáveis.
NE - É um trabalho tão delicado! Algo que estou aprendendo aqui é que eu preciso checar meus olhos. É tão fino e detalhado... As oficinas etruscas, como você disse, usavam crianças para serem seus olhos e provavelmente se tornavam aprendizes muito cedo.
FZ - Esse é um momento muito delicado da operação aqui. Apoiar nesse "ninho" de fio de liga de ferro, faz com que o calor se distribua por todas as direção, de baixo...
NE - Deve ser muito difícil fazer com que os grânulos fiquem todos do mesmo tamanho.
FZ - Isso que é o complicado, de fazê-los todos do mesmo tamanho. E aí, depois de fazer isso... Eu pulei algumas etapas, porque não queria gastar o tempo de soldar individualmente cada um deles aqui.
NE - Nos trabalhos etruscos, ainda que possamo perceber que os grânulos têm alguma variação, temos a impressão, olhando o trabalho, que existe uma certa similaridade nos tamanho que realmente é notável. Acho que isso te dá a capacidade de apreciar como essas técnicas antigas eram difíceis. Quero te agradecer pela oportunidade de nos abrir essa janela para o passado. Eu nunca mais vou olhar para essas filigranas e granulações da mesma maneira.
I purchased some copper carbonate and was wondering what preparation must be done to use it on silver. I tried mixing some in water and has some success attaching large granules of sterling silver to a sterling sheet. Unfortunately I've turned all my on hand fine silver into sterling so will have to wait to try it on fine silver. Do you have any suggestions for me? Do you think I could use corn starch instead of the tree sap?
I have not used the copper carbonate on sterling silver. What I have done is to use fine silver for both the granules and the sheet. I coated the silver sheet with a microscopic layer of copper by laying it in a glass tray with a small amount of pickle that has been used to clean copper. This means that copper ions are floating in the solution. I then quickly touched each of the four corners of the fine silver plate with a thin iron poker and the iron causes a galvanic action that lightly plates the fine silver with an invisible layer of copper. I then remove the copper and rinse it in water to remove any pickle. Keep fingers off the surface.
I then arrange the granules onto the silver plate using a diluted "batterns" flux. If there is too much flux I wick it up with the corner of a tissue. Once dry I then apply heat to the surface as I did with gold and watch until the metal glazes over with a reflective shine. Do not overheat or you will end up with a mess.
This should secure the granules in place.
I suggest experimenting with small samples.
Best of luck!
How would they have done that initial melting? They didn't have blow torches with bottled gas.
23k alloyed with silver only. Copper carbonate, gum tragacanth and batterns flux. The batterns was not needed and it made my life easier.
I agree with you both that the Etruscans did not have access to a blow torch. There is documentation of a reed tube used to add oxygen to the fuel of wood charcoal to increase the temperature of the fire much like a bellows is used on a forge. I used a torch for convenience and to save time. The use of children and youth to place the gran my speculation alone as my eyes have deteriorated over the years and I now need glasses to augment my eyesight for placement of the granules.
Something you may be unaware of, since you don't carry my affliction. I am extremely nearsighted, over 10 diopters in each eye. Because of this I can see with ease things that others need a magnifying lens for. I find flaws in stones that are missed by other jewelers using a 10x loupe. Nearsighted craftsmen can do finer work than those with normal vision, and are more likely to be the people that were placing those granules than children.
Marc, Thank you for your insight. I suspect you could be right. I am not an historian and it was my speculation that it took youthful eyes to do this work. Thanks! Greatly appreciated.
Hi Fred, do you mix your copper powder with carbon to make the "glue" that you use?
I mix the copper powder with a gum tragacanth liquid.. The glue turns to carbon when heated with the torch.
Did you say....The copper that will bind the granules? What kind of copper? Can you explain about that green powder, please...Thank you
The green powder is copper carbonate. Under the correct conditions of both heat and the presence of carbon, the copper carbonate will smelt copper. This is simply explained in this charming video. czcams.com/video/8ocYcA_xi98/video.html. Hope this helps.
Very nice, did you use 22k and copper carbonate?
I alloyed a 23k and yes I use copper carbonate and gum tragacanth liquid.
Dear Fred, As for the copper solution, many compounds were used - malachite and turquoise are good sources. Malachite is an important source of CuCO3. CuO can be used (simple copper oxide). CuOH can be made by annealing copper in the presence of an alkaline. Even more simple, CuCl2 (copper chloride) can be produced by painting salt on copper, heating it until it become a crust and then annealing the copper. Or you can make CuSO4 by treating copper with H2S04 (which takes seconds). This technique can be used for all sorts of shapes, not only balls. What I do not know - but would love to know (finding no literature on it) is if the same technique can be used to fuse palladium 950 to gold. Perhaps you know? Best regards.
Hello Dordi,
Thank you for your the additional information. I suspect there were other compounds found in minerals that could have been used in the granulation. As I recall John Paul Miller used copper oxides when bonding different shapes of gold to each other. My experience with palladium is nil and have no input on whether this process might be used to bond palladium to gold.
Is it possible to make real granulation (no solder) with sterling silver (granules and metal sheet)? Or its not possible because of high content of copper in sterling silver and adding another copper will not reduce melting temperature (eutectic temperature)? If it is possible, please describe a full eutectic granulation process with sterling silver. Thank you.
@Broom Hill Gypsies Thank you for your response. But is it anything what I can use instead of saliva? Using saliva is so weird. And please, what is "corona flame"?
Iron binding wire underneath the silver plate! What size binding wire is used? I am so eager to try this! Fabulous interview!
Isabel, I suspect that I used 20 guage iron wire. I coiled it on a rod and then made coil into a ring. This allowed me to heat from both above and below.
@@FredZ49 Thank you so much!
@@isabelrowan6776 the plate and the granules are 23 karat gold and not silver.
@@FredZ49 Thanks for letting me know! Very valuable!
@@isabelrowan6776 If you are interested in working is silver granuation I suggest starting off using fine silver for both the plate and the granules. The granules can be made in the same fashion as the gold granules.
There is a simple way of charging the silver plate with copper. Use pickle solution that you have quenched copper into. This will provide copper ions within the pickle solution. Then decant a small amount into a glass tray. Enough so that the silver plate you are going to use is covered by the pickle solution.
Now use an iron rod with a sharp point and touch each of the four corners of your silver plate. Do not linger as you touch the corners. Do it quickly.
This process will plate a minute layer of copper onto the fine silver base. If you so choose you can place the fine silver granules in the pickle along with the fine silver plate.
Remove the fine silver plate and granules from the glass tray, rinse the fine silver plate and granules and dry them.
Now you can make up a light solution of gum tragacanth and apply some to the fine silver plate and then apply each granule to the plate with a fine tipped brush.
Now place on the iron wire trivet and allow it to dry slowly. Once dry you may apply the flame from above and below. When you see the reflective flash, quickly pull away the flame and the granules will have been bonded to the fine silver plate.
It may take a few times before you get the hang of it. The amount of fine silver being used is minimal and inexpensive.
Good luck in whatever you do and please stay safe.
What liquid did you use to drench the granules?
Hi Jose, I used a solution of water, Gum Tragacanth, & copper carbonate.
@@FredZ49 Thanks for your reply. How do you make this mixture and how to use it? Can I get your help?
@@FredZ49, Will it pass 21 karat hallmarking?
@@PAPATONMOY Yes, I used 23 karat alloy as I recall.
@@FredZ49, Thank you very much.
How did the Etruscans do this without a blowtorch ?
olfursson kyllian good point-i think these guys have no idea how to mass produce granules. Doubt the Etruscans even needed a blowtorch, Pour molten gold into a pot full of fine charcoal dust and you get loads of granules-i saw it on Filigreenus channel.
m3sca1 well more than the fact that the etruscans didn't use a blow torch , the fact is that blow torch were not invented until the end of the 19th century !
olfursson kyllian exactly! and these guys are also claiming children did the work because it is hard on the eyes, historians... they are not!
m3sca1 you beg a belief !
;)
m3sca1 My claim is that the children may have been used place the granules and it is hard on the eyes.
Balinese jewelry! anno 2020
Thi technique is ancient Georgian. Georgians Did this thousand years earlier then etrusces
I agree with you Lynn. I suspect the may have used a charcoal furnace or reed blowpipes. The probably did use a natural gum like gum arabic and they did have access to copper carbonate since that was used a eye makeup and paint coloring. I am so glad you enjoyed it.