My BFS 3 9mm: extended length sliding internal weight buffer, carbine spring, bolt+buffer 21.8oz.total. Ramped bolt. Runs well, no hammer follow. Limiting bolt rearward overtravel and reducing bolt bounce (by using sliding weight buffer) was the key. 9mm has 3/4" shorter bolt than 5.56 and a buffer spacer or extended buffer helps to improve cycle time, prevent broken bolt catches, and prevent brass from falling into the lower's fire control pocket. Bolt bounce may cause what appears to be "hammer follow". Bolt bouncing back, hammer moving forward, hammer strikes carrier body instead of firing pin, hammer follows carrier. Thanks for the vid!
Thanks for the video :) I am just about done building a Colt "DOE" clone upper, and I was debating whether or not to add a binary trigger to my lower. I think it would be a neat addition to the build, even though there are very few places around here where I could actually use it :P
The Echo AR2 will actually function fine in 9mm. I had to slightly modify my PSA bolt. A very easy mod. I run an 8" upper with an H3 buffer and .308 spring and it runs flawless.
Just ran my Echo ar2 on my PSA 9mm upper today, zero faults with stock carbine buffer and spring. I do have the 5.5 oz in my dedicated 9mm lower, just figured I'd try it on my binary lower with a Sylvan magwell adapter. It ran awesome, and seemed alot faster than in this video.
@@MrKlassiPHIed I actually performed the work myself. It just involved removing a little material from each side of the channel behind the firing pin on the bolt carrier.
I have the echo 2 in my 10inch 9mm ar pistol. Running it with a bolt that I bought from Fostech. The channel for the hammer is widened to allow for function with the echos trigger stop ears. I also have an angstadt arms bolt that required milling for it to function with the newer echo trigger stops. I don't have a scale so I don't know what the weight of the bolts are but they both run great. I paired them with the blitzkrieg hydraulic buffer and a JP AR10 spring. Its proving to be a very reliable combo for me but the technicians at Fostech advised that hydraulic buffers tend to cause cycling issues. 500+ rounds so far... No issues so who knows. Since these guns are blowback, I prefer a heavier bolt with medium weight buffer and extra power spring. This is why I went with the echo vs the binary III. I kinda figured there would too many tuning issues with the bfs III. Couldn't be happier with the echo so far.
My Rock River Arms 9mm SBR runs very well with the Fostech Echo II. I had two bolts ramped AND the bottom channel (the under side) of the bolt widened. In an AR, (9mm, 556, or 300BO), Fostech Echo II is the way to go. I do not say that because I need validation. I say that because I have not only fired other's guns with these, but I also have a few Franklins. I ended up finding that the Franklin AR triggers are great in other guns, like Sig MPX (Yes, they work fine) and MCX.
All American Resistance 9mm systems run echo systems flawlessly. I HAVE TESTED thousands of rounds on multiple weapons flawlessly. Just saying. Use American Resistance lowers.
What buffer should i use with their BCG in a Maxim PDW brace? Michael at AR said to use a Standard rifle Silent captured spring in his video, but when i asked him in a email he couldnt remember what they used.....
Working off standard 9mm weights, springs, buffers, parts, etc... I think a slight heavier buffer spring or delayed blowback bolt or a hydraulic buffer would improve the timing (slow things down) to prevent a failure to feed, stove pipe, or hammer follow strike on the initial pull of the trigger. A heavier bullet like 147g subsonic would probably slow things down a bit as well by keeping pressure in rifle longer. Finally, u can increase buffer weight as a last resort to slow bolt. I am sure there are those who get this to work with stellar reliability after some tuning. Or, is the idea to speed up the bolt cycle on release of the trigger so that the bolt slips in to a charged position before hammer strikes? I.e. a machine gun you want to slow things down to improve reliability but on this you may want to speed things up to improve reliability because the hammer and bolt positions can get out of sync on release of the trigger? Or is the hammer follow jam just user error? I.e. shooter isnt letting it completely reset before he pulls trigger again? Im not sure, as i dont have experience with binary triggers just short reset triggers.
It's not the drop-in trigger housing catching on a 9mm bolt, it's the "teeth" sticking up on the trigger block on the Echo AR-II. A 9mm bolt without that taper in the hammer cavity will binary just fine.
@@GOGETFUKD2009 I originally had one of the 9mm bolts with an hourglass shaped hammer well, and ran into the issue in the video. I replaced that BCG with a Stern Defense SD BU9 9mm Bolt Carrier, and it works like a dream!
I'll be honest with you the fostech AR-2 is best he can play around with Franklin all day long I am not in any way saying they do not work because they do however comparing Franklin Armory to the Fostech. ECHO 2 is like comparing a filet mignon to a bologna sandwich you get what you pay for I have the echo 2 in a spikes 9 mm also have it in a Daniel Defense AR-15 thousands of rounds later I can tell you from friends that have bought the Franklin 90% went back and got a fostech echo 2 again this is just my opinion take it for what it's worth just saying after all it's your money you can do whatever you want cheers and I hope everyone has a great day🙏
Hi Mike, Have you done any testing of the Echo triggers with a suppressed 300BO? Enjoyed this testing vid and appreciate you showing the parts so we can learn the differences.
Hi Mike, PSA has the 8.5 and 10 on sale or the FN CHF 10 would be a good choice too. Whatever you think would be best with a suppressor. Thank you, Bob
@@MichaelBellmbell556 i cant wait until all this gets figured out and it becomes knwon what combo of AR lower/9mm/binary works with the least jams. I cant afford to experiment so i think were are all hoping a youtuber pro like you can do it for us! thx for the vids michael bell
Instead of pulling the trigger hold your right hand stiff and pull the weapon into your trigger finger. The resulting recoil will, once you get good at it, reset the trigger or in this case fire another round.
I have the Franklin Armory gen 3 in my Noveske Space Invader. It keeps bending the trigger pin thus allowing it to fire in safe. I’ve replaced 2 bent KNS anti rotation trigger pins. It’s a shame cause that sumbitch runs like a champ for about 500 rds.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 Exactly, you haven't had one YET. An out of battery discharge is not a matter of IF, it is a matter of WHEN. I was warned of this directly by Franklin Armory, and I own both a Gen2 and Gen3. [Gen3 is way better than Gen2 and I'm glad you do these comparisons :) ]. It's the same reason you should not use bump stocks with blow back guns. The Fostech ECHO (which I don't own) does have a sear trip to know the bolt is all the way forward.
IIRC, Colt had OOB even with their SMG 9mm with sear trip due to bolt bounce. They switched to a sliding weight buffer. They act like a deadblow hammer to help prevent bouncing.
Also, it seems to me that, since the 9mm cartridge rim shouldn't snap under the extractor and sit sgainst the bolt face until the bolt is fully in battery (the cartridge appears to free-float until breech closure, depending on bolt design), the firing pin shouldn't be able to contact the primer on the bolt's initial forward stroke until the bolt is fully in battery and the bolt face is pressed against the cartridge base. So it seems that OOB should be unlikely unless the bolt bounces, carrying the cartridge with it, now held tight to the bolt face by the extractor. Correct?
@@MichaelBellmbell556 I have the Fostech Echo 2 and I know for sure you'll need the "auto sear trip and anti-bounce weight kit", which I have but still needs modification because it doesn't reach the trigger lock.
6:08...hammer follow...and that's why Fostech is better. However, as a dealer, I hate Fostech. Horrible dealer support; horrible treatment of dealers who help sell their products. Had a guy buy one online cheaper than I can buy it. Typical Fostech. Guess what. You need help installing in a 9mm? $100. I'm sure as not going to help you for free when you bought the item online.
Nope. My right index finger is missing the distal 1 and a half phalanges. My trigger finger is straight and off the trigger it just looks like it does because it is short.
You're joking right? The binary is a mechanical part that takes no stupid stock that slides around. And is a 3 position safety.. Also. Dump stocks are banned any way
My BFS 3 9mm: extended length sliding internal weight buffer, carbine spring, bolt+buffer 21.8oz.total. Ramped bolt. Runs well, no hammer follow. Limiting bolt rearward overtravel and reducing bolt bounce (by using sliding weight buffer) was the key. 9mm has 3/4" shorter bolt than 5.56 and a buffer spacer or extended buffer helps to improve cycle time, prevent broken bolt catches, and prevent brass from falling into the lower's fire control pocket. Bolt bounce may cause what appears to be "hammer follow". Bolt bouncing back, hammer moving forward, hammer strikes carrier body instead of firing pin, hammer follows carrier. Thanks for the vid!
Great information. Thanks!!
Thanks for testing these combinations.
thank you for the video , it answer all my questions .
You are welcome!
Thanks, You answered several questions for me. I can also say this, I have a Franklin trigger in a MP-5 And it runs perfect
Good to hear
If you up the weight of the buffer, you would clear these issues
I would like to see this with the echo sport
Thanks for the video :) I am just about done building a Colt "DOE" clone upper, and I was debating whether or not to add a binary trigger to my lower. I think it would be a neat addition to the build, even though there are very few places around here where I could actually use it :P
They are fun if not practical.
The Echo AR2 will actually function fine in 9mm. I had to slightly modify my PSA bolt. A very easy mod. I run an 8" upper with an H3 buffer and .308 spring and it runs flawless.
Thanks for the info
Thank you
Just ran my Echo ar2 on my PSA 9mm upper today, zero faults with stock carbine buffer and spring. I do have the 5.5 oz in my dedicated 9mm lower, just figured I'd try it on my binary lower with a Sylvan magwell adapter. It ran awesome, and seemed alot faster than in this video.
What was the mod they did to your bolt? I have a G4-9 hybrid bolt from them.
@@MrKlassiPHIed I actually performed the work myself. It just involved removing a little material from each side of the channel behind the firing pin on the bolt carrier.
Suppressor friendly!👍
Wondering if upping the grain high brass to maybe 124 gr. would make any change?
You guys need to have the buffer tube and stock Straight into your shoulder that's why it was having issues
I have the echo 2 in my 10inch 9mm ar pistol. Running it with a bolt that I bought from Fostech. The channel for the hammer is widened to allow for function with the echos trigger stop ears. I also have an angstadt arms bolt that required milling for it to function with the newer echo trigger stops. I don't have a scale so I don't know what the weight of the bolts are but they both run great. I paired them with the blitzkrieg hydraulic buffer and a JP AR10 spring. Its proving to be a very reliable combo for me but the technicians at Fostech advised that hydraulic buffers tend to cause cycling issues. 500+ rounds so far... No issues so who knows.
Since these guns are blowback, I prefer a heavier bolt with medium weight buffer and extra power spring. This is why I went with the echo vs the binary III. I kinda figured there would too many tuning issues with the bfs III. Couldn't be happier with the echo so far.
Excellent information. Thanks!!!
One of the best firearms channels ever
Hey, thanks! Please share with friends. I am trying to make a go of it with support from patrons. I have a lot of projects to cover this year.
My Rock River Arms 9mm SBR runs very well with the Fostech Echo II. I had two bolts ramped AND the bottom channel (the under side) of the bolt widened. In an AR, (9mm, 556, or 300BO), Fostech Echo II is the way to go. I do not say that because I need validation. I say that because I have not only fired other's guns with these, but I also have a few Franklins. I ended up finding that the Franklin AR triggers are great in other guns, like Sig MPX (Yes, they work fine) and MCX.
It will work if you have the bolt carrier milled out.
Yep
All American Resistance 9mm systems run echo systems flawlessly. I HAVE TESTED thousands of rounds on multiple weapons flawlessly. Just saying. Use American Resistance lowers.
Thanks for the info
What buffer should i use with their BCG in a Maxim PDW brace? Michael at AR said to use a Standard rifle Silent captured spring in his video, but when i asked him in a email he couldnt remember what they used.....
@@GOGETFUKD2009 I do not have the Maxim PDW system so I cannot say. Hopefully someone with experience with that system can respond.
Working off standard 9mm weights, springs, buffers, parts, etc... I think a slight heavier buffer spring or delayed blowback bolt or a hydraulic buffer would improve the timing (slow things down) to prevent a failure to feed, stove pipe, or hammer follow strike on the initial pull of the trigger. A heavier bullet like 147g subsonic would probably slow things down a bit as well by keeping pressure in rifle longer. Finally, u can increase buffer weight as a last resort to slow bolt. I am sure there are those who get this to work with stellar reliability after some tuning. Or, is the idea to speed up the bolt cycle on release of the trigger so that the bolt slips in to a charged position before hammer strikes? I.e. a machine gun you want to slow things down to improve reliability but on this you may want to speed things up to improve reliability because the hammer and bolt positions can get out of sync on release of the trigger? Or is the hammer follow jam just user error? I.e. shooter isnt letting it completely reset before he pulls trigger again? Im not sure, as i dont have experience with binary triggers just short reset triggers.
Hammer follow is releasing the trigger before bolt is in battery. Outrunning the BCG. You want to speed up the bolt velocity with binary.
It's not the drop-in trigger housing catching on a 9mm bolt, it's the "teeth" sticking up on the trigger block on the Echo AR-II. A 9mm bolt without that taper in the hammer cavity will binary just fine.
Yes, a bolt carrier milled out will work.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 I'm using a Stern Defense 9mm bolt in mine, and it rocks with the Echo AR-II.
@@unixphreak1911 Thanks.How much and from what vendor?
@@unixphreak1911 the new one without the weight in the bcg, or the original one?
@@GOGETFUKD2009 I originally had one of the 9mm bolts with an hourglass shaped hammer well, and ran into the issue in the video. I replaced that BCG with a Stern Defense SD BU9 9mm Bolt Carrier, and it works like a dream!
I have a BM9 ECHO Edition. Fostech from the factory. It is FLAWLESS.
Thanks for the info. With the right bolt Fostech should be great.
Mine works flawlessly.
Nice isn't it.
Could you please make a video on the FM Products Ar9 with both triggers? Great video.
God bless yall.
tried the FA BFS Gen 3 in the FN 9mm and it did not reset in binary mode.
I'll be honest with you the fostech AR-2 is best he can play around with Franklin all day long I am not in any way saying they do not work because they do however comparing Franklin Armory to the Fostech. ECHO 2 is like comparing a filet mignon to a bologna sandwich you get what you pay for I have the echo 2 in a spikes 9 mm also have it in a Daniel Defense AR-15 thousands of rounds later I can tell you from friends that have bought the Franklin 90% went back and got a fostech echo 2 again this is just my opinion take it for what it's worth just saying after all it's your money you can do whatever you want cheers and I hope everyone has a great day🙏
Th e ECHO II is more reliable with no tuning
this test is good to know! thanks alot fellas!
Thanks for watching.
What is that pistol that is toms carry, in his waste holster?
I'll have to ask him.
Michael Bell thanks, yeah let me know I’m very curious👌👍
Sweet video and great experiment. 👍
So it sounds like the lighter hardware the better. Would you say that’s about right?
Basically
Hi Mike, Have you done any testing of the Echo triggers with a suppressed 300BO? Enjoyed this testing vid and appreciate you showing the parts so we can learn the differences.
That will be my next "will it binary" video. I can work that in next week. What length barrel do you want to see?
Hi Mike,
PSA has the 8.5 and 10 on sale or the FN CHF 10 would be a good choice too. Whatever you think would be best with a suppressor.
Thank you,
Bob
@@MrRmh3481 8.5" it is!
Damn he’s leaning into it hard
Yep.
Its not too fun when 90% of the time you cant make it through a magazine without a jam or misfire. I speak from experience too.
You have to find the right combination of parts and the right cadence.
...or when you have to spend a few hundred bucks to experiment😉.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 i cant wait until all this gets figured out and it becomes knwon what combo of AR lower/9mm/binary works with the least jams. I cant afford to experiment so i think were are all hoping a youtuber pro like you can do it for us! thx for the vids michael bell
cmmg mkg 9mm with glock brand mags runs perfectly
what about glock mag pattern? not just colt pattern
Heavy buffer and you're good...
I'll try it. Usually heavier slows down the cycle.
I had to grind out my 9mm bolt to get the echo to work with it. Devalued the bolt but works perfectly now even after several thousand rounds,
I might try that on one of my bolts.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 Please post a video of this!!!
You just ground out the extra metal he was referring to??
What buffer are you using, & what bolt? Are you using the weight inside the bolt or is it removed?
Instead of pulling the trigger hold your right hand stiff and pull the weapon into your trigger finger.
The resulting recoil will, once you get good at it, reset the trigger or in this case fire another round.
That would be bump firing and you do not need a binary trigger to do it.
I have the Franklin Armory gen 3 in my Noveske Space Invader. It keeps bending the trigger pin thus allowing it to fire in safe. I’ve replaced 2 bent KNS anti rotation trigger pins. It’s a shame cause that sumbitch runs like a champ for about 500 rds.
Thanks for that information.
Did it bend the stock pin also, or is this unknown?
Rod Coxswell I did not run stock pins as they seemed to creep out a little to easily.
What does LMR stand for? I like to get one them integrated suppressed uppers
Actually I think it is LRM . Lee Minor is the guys name facebook.com/pages/Lrm-Custom-Firearms-Suppressors/197258330343678
Thx
Any updates on that awesome iar build?
Taking it out for a video next week. Been running some rounds thru it to break in the barrel. Have not had a single failure.
I want to put one of these in my Freedom Ordinance FX9 will it work ?
Not sure
Did you find a Trigger? I want to change out my trigger. Thanks
Great vid. But it's called a Bolt Carrier Group, not a bolt. The bolt is inside the carrier, but the whole thing is the BCG.
Correct. When I say bolt I am usually referring to the bolt and not the BCG.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 Oooh ok. Thanks for clarifying. I want sure what you meant.
Colt 9mm isn’t exactly standard
Fostech will be coming out with a new trigger that is not a drop in style
I would like to see that one close up.
The fostech sport is already out now. Looks neat but I still like my echo.
@@davey.j.bowski9299 From what I have seen I prefer the ECHO.
Not trying to be negative but you’re doing it wrong brother
he was setting tom up for failure
Haha
You should never run the Franklin Armory binary trigger on a blowback gun unless you want a out of battery discharge.
Your bias is showing.Fostech Eco II will give you an out of battery discharge as well czcams.com/video/I76YFapGLLs/video.html
Has several hammer follows with no marginal primer strikes.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 Exactly, you haven't had one YET. An out of battery discharge is not a matter of IF, it is a matter of WHEN. I was warned of this directly by Franklin Armory, and I own both a Gen2 and Gen3. [Gen3 is way better than Gen2 and I'm glad you do these comparisons :) ]. It's the same reason you should not use bump stocks with blow back guns. The Fostech ECHO (which I don't own) does have a sear trip to know the bolt is all the way forward.
IIRC, Colt had OOB even with their SMG 9mm with sear trip due to bolt bounce. They switched to a sliding weight buffer. They act like a deadblow hammer to help prevent bouncing.
Also, it seems to me that, since the 9mm cartridge rim shouldn't snap under the extractor and sit sgainst the bolt face until the bolt is fully in battery (the cartridge appears to free-float until breech closure, depending on bolt design), the firing pin shouldn't be able to contact the primer on the bolt's initial forward stroke until the bolt is fully in battery and the bolt face is pressed against the cartridge base. So it seems that OOB should be unlikely unless the bolt bounces, carrying the cartridge with it, now held tight to the bolt face by the extractor. Correct?
Binary .22lr please!
I'll try to add that on next week.
@@MichaelBellmbell556 I have the Fostech Echo 2 and I know for sure you'll need the "auto sear trip and anti-bounce weight kit", which I have but still needs modification because it doesn't reach the trigger lock.
@@js0ne I have that set up for FA lowers. I'll try it next week.
I'll try the ECHO 2 and BFS Gen3 triggers. I have a few different uppers to try. Going out this afternoon if rain stays away.
Can always take a dremel to that bcg and make it work with the echo 2. That's what i did, down like 5,000 rounds and havent had any issues yet.
What buffer system are you using? Do you have a weight in your BCG?
5.6 oz 9mm buffer from the 90s. Original 9mm style. Steel and tungsten weights in BCG. Discussed in video.
Seriously, who puts the red sticker on their receiver with a binary?
Really. That is one ugly addition.
Can the other shooters not wait a few minutes?
LOL. Tom could not wait to try out a new pistol.
What song is that intro. I know it and it’s driving me nuts that I can’t think of the name
Blinding Light. Look at the end of the video for credits.
czcams.com/video/9ao07gOl1x4/video.html
Watch this video for the full song
Michael Bell not at all what I thought it would be. Weird
Maybe the melody is just familiar. Thanks anyways man
what ammo were you shooting ?
1:48
6:08...hammer follow...and that's why Fostech is better. However, as a dealer, I hate Fostech. Horrible dealer support; horrible treatment of dealers who help sell their products. Had a guy buy one online cheaper than I can buy it. Typical Fostech. Guess what. You need help installing in a 9mm? $100. I'm sure as not going to help you for free when you bought the item online.
Yep, the Fostech trigger block eliminates hammer follow in my experience.Sorry to hear about their poor dealer support.
Yes Fostech will work with 9mm! This is a very poor way to test this. Did you ever think that there's different bolts available? terrible!
I know now.
At the 4:56 mark, your clearing a FTF. Your trigger finger was on the trigger.
Nope. My right index finger is missing the distal 1 and a half phalanges. My trigger finger is straight and off the trigger it just looks like it does because it is short.
Good to know , thanks for setting me straight.
Bumping is far better than those binary triggers. Junk.
You're joking right? The binary is a mechanical part that takes no stupid stock that slides around. And is a 3 position safety.. Also. Dump stocks are banned any way
No slide stock, just a trained finger to bump it at will. Binary triggers will be banned by this time next year.@@PureCountryof91
@@ericzeigler8669 still waiting ;-)
Seems like they'll ban the frt first
and get some people who know how to use the trigger. amateurs
I am not a professional.