Ukraine: Why NATO Tactics fail
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2024
- In this video we look what NATO training, doctrine & tactics don't work or apply in the war in Ukraine. For this I asked a former German combat engineer that was extensively trained in NATO doctrine and also served in the Ukraine War as a volunteer.
Cover design by vonKickass.
Warno footage by www.youtube.com/@VulcanHDGami...
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Smoke Operations by SSG David Zilinski, Senior Intelligence Analyst, 177th Armored Brigade
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_...
00:00 Intro
01:04 Tanks & Tank Combat
02:10 Pace of Combat
02:50 ATGM vs non-vehicle
03:17 Weapons & Ammo: Availability über alles
04:14 IFV & Armored Vehicles
04:50 APCs & MRAPs
05:32 Smoke Operations (or lack thereof)
07:00 Smoke by Artillery
08:18 No Smoke Ammo: Less Training, less Friction
09:43 Artillery
10:16 Night Vision Equipment
10:48 Mine Warfare
11:10 Why Warno footage?
12:36 Summary
#NATOTactics #Tactics #Doctrine #ukrainewar #Analysis #Warno
NATO tactics don't work in Ukraine because they revolve around overwhelming American Air Superiority to offset Russian/Soviet advantages in ground based fires. Without air superiority Ukraine is instead having to fight an artillery war against an opponent who generally has a superiority in fires.
Russia has masses(had, running out of ammo) of fires, but not accurate fires or effective, when compared to US artillery fires.
@@xxxlonewolf49 still, even if Russian artillery saturation is not efficient, it is countered much easier via air superiority vs engaging in artillery duels
They haven't even been using NATO tactics at all. They've been fighting on Russia's terms the whole time, even when they shouldn't have been.
@TheLumberjack1987 Very true. The COTS drones are also a whole new aspect to war neither side planned or had trained around.
@@xxxlonewolf49
'Murika ... F**k yea. only 'muricans can shoot guns accurately, no one else ... give me a brake !
Tactics dont Suddenly make a 5km Deep minefield that the enemy has no intention of attacking Over cease to exist
"just go around bro"
@RaikoTechnologies of course, why didn't the Ukrainians think of the obvious invading another country to go around the minefield, or launching an amphibious invasion of Russia to go around the minefields 🙈
well said, one Ukrainian returning from western training said they told him just to "avoid or, bypass minefields" which unfortunately shows how modern NATO forgot the old lessons of peer on peer combat in the last 30 years
@@DD-qw4fzNo that’s what GERMANS said.
I have four years in the Marines with training filled with minefield clearing.
@@kaneworsnop1007 the joke was "you mean going into the sea? there are mines here as well"
Another thing that has been talked about a lot, but not emphasized enough that with the combination of the flat open terrain, massive number of artillery assets and 24/7 drone surveillance of the battle space it is practically impossible to concentrate forces to conduct larger scale offensive opperations without immediately suffering an artillery raid. By extension that's why we don't see maneuvering tank formations, because they cannot set up assembly areas close enough to the front so they have to march long distances before engaging the enemy, which is in part responsible for the poor performance of armoured assets in this war, because those movements are extremely taxing to the crew even in more ergonomic NATO tanks. The Ukrainian counter offensive is a great example of this in effect. After that fiasco they started using smaller infantry units with limited armoured support, which led to the small amount of gains they could achieve in that operation. This tactic seems to be prevailing on both side to this day.
It doesn’t really matter since neither side has the capability to even conduct battalion sized attacks
@@looinrims why do you think is that?
@@oliverpasztor788the factors above, any battalion size assembly immediately comes under fire by artillery
@@acceptablecasualty5319 I know that as I laid that out in my original comment. I am curious what @looinrims will answer, because his comment suggests that neither is inherently capable of conducting such an operation, which I don't think is true.
@@looinrimsboth sides have such capability. But, when troops will be accumulated in the staging area - they would be clapped by artillery, or, if it will be AFU - also by helicopters or strike aircrafts, or by both. So, this is become purely arty warfare, with small groups constantly trying to infiltrate to enemy lines.
Because the textbooks didn’t expect the enemy to have 10 light years of mines 3 high and two inches apart
reminds me the thing with genius Ameriquan êkspêrts evaluating MiG-25
"It weren't we, who've fucked up and who must take some responsibility. It's Sovets who invented a wrong plane!"
It isn't our textbook which never shed light on a possible scenario. It's just dæmned Æstern Eüropa.
@@worldoftancraft and then as a response the Ameriquan êkspêrts developed the most successful air superiority fighter in history that also happened to destroy several MiG-25 with no combat losses of its own
@@colinadams5419 good thing it never enters truly protected airspace.
Now you should go remember the noombar 1 US-of-A interceptor: the M1 Abrams and how it annihilated everything in Easting 73 airzone, together with Bradley AWACS system.
Also English literacy is a joke. Cope with that. It's people of this tribe that make the used spellings not that unimaginable. Or you have been through a hiccough while reading them?
@@colinadams5419 also it's kinda neglectful from you that you omitted the curious fact that the most powerful entity that kicked the ass of an F-15 was... Earth. The beloved blue-green ball that, as I can recall, doesn't have conscious.
Also, curious fact number two is... what you've wrote is am example of WhatAvoutIsm. The irony itself.
Because the text books also don't tell you to sit on your hands doing nothing while the enemy makes a big ass mine field.
Ukraine is going to be a text book example of squandering your edge over the enemy. (They had U.S. intel, Drones, optics, thermals, air defense)
NATO tactics without air dominance? Lmao. Without air dominance, you can't concentrate forces to pull off a shock and awe push.
Still Ukraine was goaded into the counteroffensive that was to reach the black sea.. With no air power and inferior artillery.
So NATOs doctrine is completely flawed. Good luck trying to achieve air superiority when the enemy aren't armed with AK 47s and slippers.
@@x7zy-xx And less than 15% of required demining systems
And that air dominance requires what? Exactly, a vastly inferior enemy army. And even then, look at the declassified documents of Vietnam's air war. It was a complete turkey shoot for the Vietnamese and their allies whenever they engaged NATO aircraft.
@@DinnerForkTongue No les digas.
- multilayered defences more then 50 km deep
- automated remining of huge areas in hours, which makes mineclearing a herculean or better sisiphosian task
- drone surveilance deep into enemy territory - round about 50 - 70 km range
- no air superiority
- increasing thermal imaging capabilities on both sides
- glide bombes
- long range artillery and huge ammount of it (Russia)
Also dont announce the entire world that u are going to attack
@@annguyenlehoang7779 They even made a trailer XD
To be fair. All these factors have always been part of the basis of NATO doctrine; an all out war with the Soviet Union.
Ukraine isn't employing NATO doctrine. It uses NATO weapon systems in a Soviet style.
@@065Tim Thank you... and to add NATO doctrine does work in these condtions... really look at every war NATO has fuaaght for exemples of how they overcoming these types of issues.
@@juannieves8642 🤫🤫🤫🤫🤫
Are you telling me pumping all of your soldiers and equipment into a position surrounded on three sides isn't an effective tactic?
it worked when running a simulation with bad coefficients for the stupid orks! :)
Of course! That's how Ukraine successfully advanced to the rear in Avdiiv . . . err . . . Avdeevka, causing eleventy billion casualties to the Russians while Private Oinkskiy stubbed his toe as the only Ukrainian casualty.
@@jchrystsheigh The thing that gets me is how poutine didn't predict his massive loss of eleventy billion casualties. As we all know, the Russians ran out of ammunition 2 years ago and have been using exclusively shovels since then. If only NATO weren't so stingy with the money, Ukraine could have defended against the shovel-wielders and their illegal invasion more quickly.
@@asahearts1 Love to see that there's people out there who understand that war is an extension of politics. I clearly remember that Nuland was involved in planning the counter offensive, at least so she stated herself. Well turns out that Coup plotting propagandists don't make for good military strategists lmao
@@bimbocrammmm Speakimg of Nuland, I noticed there's been a lot of sudden turnover. I wonder what that's all about. 🤔
No plan survives first contact with the enemy.
That plan has been in place for years now.
Cute pupper in profile pic tho
@@Sercer25 Thanks, what I meant was that it seemed like the intention was to apply as much NATO tactics as possible, but it probably wasn't going to fully work either way, even if there was a solid air force on the top of things. The Russians were prepared, the Ukrainians struck where they were prepared whilst this didn't happen in the previous, more successful offenses.
NATO equipment was also maintained to a better standard, once upon a time. You know, back in the days when crèches on army bases were not a top priority.
In the words of Mike Tyson, "Everyone got a plan until they get punched in the mouth".
@@PowermadNavigator and how long did those "successful offences" last? be critical or shut up
I see a lot of similarities between the war in Ukraine and the Iraq-Iran-War. Lot of what you have mentioned was executed there between 1980 -1988 too: trench and mine warfare, tanke fire indirect fire, attack helicopters stopping armour, a permanent lack of ressources. In genreal: Firepower over movement.
Movement, in this case, is not freely permitted. The entire battlefield is perpetually surveilled. Drones have altered tactics, with military institutions quick to adopt, but slow to counter. Even "efficient" Russian jamming seems to have moderate effect.
@@panzlockDrones changed a lot. Especially when it comes to dislocation of troops. But I want to point out some things:
1.) The informations provided by drones have to be put together. There are in my opion no doubts that there's friction too concerning this.Also the informations have to be transferred to CPs and staffs to work with them. Another point which requires constant corrections due to combat operations.
2.) The other ways of reconnaissance are not gone. They can provide pictures of situations still. i.e. during the Iraq-Iran-War the iranias didn't use encryption or coding on tactical level radio transmissons most of the time but plain text.(!) On operational level the Iraqis were able to deciphered Irans radio transmissions (with the help of swiss machines and czech operators).
3.) In the end you need to have the resources to use the informations on the battlefield. That means you need to have the the appropriate weaponry and you need them in appropriate numbers. You also need troops that are able to conduct the right tactics. Again: Drones change a lot. I absolutly agree. But i.e. the informations provided by drones do not change the inferiority of the ukraine army concerning artillery.
You lie. There are no any similarities at all. trench and mine warfare is inevitable in case when enemies are equal in strength. It's not war against Afhgan peasants or any other 3d world contries what USA and NATO did in their history.
How in 1980 they used child soldiers, in 2024 its drones
dumb ahh comparison
the damn shovels with washing machine chips....
Them shovels sure are effective. I want many for my country.
@@DinnerForkTongue thinkntwice! Shovels are cheap, reliable and easy to use and maintain.. they dont generate much GDP just keep working...
Ballistic cluster shovels, heat-seeking thermobaric shovels, guided titanium shovels, hypersonic shovels and AI swarm shovels.
@@DinnerForkTongueget out of here, stalker
NATO should import that tech
NATO and SOVIET doctrine was developed without any actual direct engagement with their main adversaries. It's unique in that it's a battle of two hypotheticals that were never tested in the real world.
Part of the great tragedy that wars are. In certain aspects generals are as clueless as random people.
First Gulf war, the Iraqi's followed the Soviet doctrine to the letter and were steamrolled by the coalition who did nothing but practice against soviet doctrine. The tech gap that was shown in that conflict scared the shit out of the Russians and the Chinese. While the Russians said they were going to rework their military (They didn't) the Chinese did, they [China] are attempting to make their military like a modern western one.
@@tdlainc.4737 Am sorry but Iraq isnt russia or by extension the soviet union. We know for a fact that suppressing russia's air defenses would be too costly for anyone that dared. Iraq had no such defenses. Once the US attained air supremacy, that was it. Soviet doctrine focuses on denying the opponent air supremacy. This is seen with there heavy focus on air defenses.
And it works, Ukraine denied russia air superiority for 2 whole years. Its only now starting to fall apart. Ukraine was using mostly S300 systems..... We apply that to russia who have even more advanced systems and you can see how daunting the task is for Nato doctrine. Any fight with russia is one where you are committed to go all in. Its gonna be costly. And am talking conventional.
For a group like Nato, they know that spending there strength on russia is stupid when the dragon in the east is merely watching....
@@tdlainc.4737Comparing Iraq to the USSR and Russia is the most pathetic take ever. The statement that the Russian army has stayed the same since 1991 is also, to put it mildly, untrue. They've changed tactics at least twice - after the Chechen wars and the Syrian Civil war.
@@tdlainc.4737 which only says that Iraq made a mistake using soviet doctrine, not being adjusted to it. Just like Ukraine now.
1. They’ve been tailored to fight insurgencies in the Middle East and Africa for the past 30 years
2. They hinge WAY too much on favorable conditions such as air superiority, numerical superiority, etc.
3. Fail to account for the limitations of equipment, as Ukraine has complained about.
We hinge on Air Superiority or Air Dominance because THAT is a guaranteed factor.
We outnumber the RuAF two and even three to one, with more advanced technology across the board and better pilots. The Airspace will be contested, but WE will still be the ones doing strike missions even as the sky is not fully secured. Russians will be on the defensive through and through. They can rely on their SAMs, but they will pretty much be attrited at only a slightly slower pace than the enemy aircraft.
Ukraine is on the opposite spectrum. They cannot even gain air superiority at all, nor can they even contest the airspace.
It’s only because of Russia’s pure incompetence that they haven’t been pummeled into the ground at a rate never before seen in the war up to this point.
In regards to the air war…
Ukraine is to Russia what Russia is to us.
@@PeterMuskrat6968 No it’s not and you’re a fool to think it would be. Modern air defenses can lock down airspace very effectively. You’re grossly overestimating our capability. Anybody who’s worked for the military (like me) knows the Russians aren’t the losers you make them out to be. They’re very competent fighters, their pilots have more combat hours than any other air force on earth, and their missile technology is either on par with or exceeds ours. Anecdotal, but my cousin was a CCT in the Air Force and even admitted we wouldn’t just magically gain air superiority over Russia. Don’t let your hubris be your downfall. We thought Ukraine would punch through easily last summer, thought the Abrams would single handedly roll through Moscow, and thought the NATO trained troops were superior to Russia’s. All of that was wrong.
@@PeterMuskrat6968 If your whole strategy relies on one factor being guaranteed, doesn't that mean then your whole stratagem was very vulnerable. What if you underestimate your opponents Anti Air ability and they make it costly for your airpower. Or worse they actually out compete or make your airpower a none factor?
What's worse is you then package this way of fighting to a country who does not even have that one guaranteed factor either, setting them up for failure.
@@PeterMuskrat6968 Never in a million years, as things stand, would NATO even contest for Russia's airspace. Their air defence capabilities would make short work of the USAF, downing aircraft at a rate that would make replenishment untenable, considering America's shambolic lack of production surge capacity. Not to mention the crucial loss of experienced pilots.
Stop the cope.
@@chico9805 Russia could barely deal with what little Ukraine received in missiles, you think they'd stop hundreds of tomahawks and f35s? You're drunk go home. You say USA can't produce replacement, what, prey tell would Russia use to replace their air defenses once they're exhausted? If this war showed anything is that Russia anti air was way overhyped.
I know the "communities" have quite some overlap, but seeing WARNO footage from Vulcan first thing really surprised a laugh out of me.
It could be a lot of things, like how from the outset they were poorly thought out and based around the idea of total air superiority, but a critical aspect is also that for the last 30 years, everything NATO, from the equipment to the tactics, to the doctrine and strategy, to the logistical base have been retooled to fight profitable insurgnecy/anti-terrorism/ seal-clubbing conflicts where the opponent can't really fight back.
Now placed against a peer opponent, unsurprisingly, it fails spectacularly.
exactly
More broadly, the NATO doctrine works on the assumption of technological superiority, or achieving technological superiority, in several key areas like intelligence and reach. The Soviet doctrine works on no such assumptions - it assumes the enemy is at least as strong, at least as smart, at least as knowledgeable, etc. Thus the idea of maskirovka, attempting to deceive the enemy, thus the complex tactical maneuvering to separate and destroy the enemy piecemeal, thus "meatgrinder" defensive positioning, etc. NATO doctrine is 'comfortable' fighting, Soviet doctrine is blood sweat and tears until victory. All the difference, really.
So basically it boils down to "NATO tactics fail when the enemy doesn't do what we want them to do". That's wild.
Its really wild that "Let's not do what they want us to" came as a shock.
Drones, drones, drones, drones. That is what you seem to have missed.
Any attacking force is equivalent to taking your unprotected hand and messing up a wasp's nest with it. This goes for both sides. The moment you get into the open, the drones, the wasps, swarm. This gives an advantage to the slow moving firepower heavy side. You simply can't do movement warfare anymore against an equal foe.
the introduction of drones to reach into and past local defense for clearing fog of war and accurate targeting of high value targets really has changed the game imo. the idea that we would be reduced to world war 1 style combat again just blows my mind. modern battlefields are going to remain a trench slog with very limited mobility until such a time as drones can be quickly and efficiently dealt with. there are other factors of coarse but i would argue these drones are the single biggest impact item which has thrown mobile warfare under the bus
I disagree.
The trench slogging we're seing really shouldn't come as any surprise given the terrain and forces at play. The ground is not conducive to manuver in the best of circumstances. The donbass and adjacent regions are a tangled knotwork of hedges and streams and small towns, not like the plains to the West.
@@horsemumbler1this isn't the french countryside circa WW2, this is literally the terrain armor was designed to operate in, it's like 1000km of grain fields with very little cover and only one major obstacle in the form of the Dniper. the ability for drones to prevent any kind of force concentration close to the front has created this situation which amounts to no one being willing to expose more than a platoon or 2 of infantry at a time. any time Russia tries to put any kind of tank numbers together, drone swarms either engage them directly, pinpoint their positions for accurate artillery or give Ukraine information to prepare for a spoil/counter attack.
@@horsemumbler1the reason why Ukraine entry into NATO was considered such a threat by Russia is that Ukraine has long been considered to be undefendable to modern mobile warfare doctrines and a direct path to Moscow.
Trench warfare is because PSU lacks aircraft and VKS don't have weapons to deal with AFU anti-air systems.
Plus the fact that the armour was caught naked against the drones with strapped-in explosives (which are basically just next-gen ATGMs that are better and 2 order of magnitude cheaper than e.g. Javelin).
@@skipperg4436 Javelin is so expensive only because that's what it costed to have a robotic drone in 1996. 20 years later, identical capability is much cheaper due to progress in mass manufacture of MEMS devices . . . everyone is going to make them now, en mass. add a NVidia Jetson image processor to it and it doesn't even need a pilot anymore. As soon as we run out of tanks, they will become cheap enough to target individual people, and each other.
I think the major thing that you either missed or minimized was the total proliferation of drones. Neither side can move. If the Russians move out into the open, they are immediately spotted by drones and then attacked by massed artillery fires and the same goes for Ukraine. If NATO was fighting in Ukraine, they also would be unable to move. Drones have absolutely changed the battlefield. There simply will not be any large-scale breakthroughs or operational maneuvers unless one side figures out a way to neutralize the other sides drones. Everything else you mentioned is merely tertiary.
Its like the barbed wire and machine guns of WW1. No one wants to admit a coil of sharp wire destroyed their gallant charges with cavalry with gleaming sabres in hand. Drones have done the same to people that think a dozen Abrams rolling through the desert with total air dominance against n outdated enemy was how all wars would be fought. There shouldn't be "NATO" tactics. There should be different tactics based off the available forces in relation to the opposing enemy.
smoke launchers get rusty, yes, but they don't fail because of it. They only need to transmit an electrical signal to the smoke canisters through a few metal pins, worst case scenario you clean the pins and it works again. Honestly I've seen or heard of nearly every part of our tanks failing except for smoke launchers.
Maybe the warehouse with most of the NATO supply of smoke canisters got striked or got blown up in transit?
@@trunglequoc542 its more likely a training and equipment issue.
the australian Armor Museum stated in a video about T-72 that it has "dead man cirquits" in its hatches, that disable certain equipment like the smoke launchers or with the drivers hatch, even the turret controls, when not closed.
If this is correct, most tanks in ukraine cant use smoke due to operating with open hatches.
And NATO tank crews come from sovjet tanks and thus have limited experience using smoke.
In soviet/Russian doctrine vehicle smokes are considered as a unit's tactical measure, not an individual protection system. For example, ivfs driving across the field in front of friendly infantry deploying smoke to cover grunt's movements. Even smoke launchers in older models of t72 were set up to throw a smoke charge as far as possible, smoking the enemy position 100-200 meters away, not the individual tank. These launchers have been changed but everyone is used to old tactics
@@zhufortheimpaler4041dead man circuits are standard worldwide and you can disable them. This is necessary in case they malfunction or your hatches can't be closed properly anymore. You're drilled to close the hatch first and then smoke, though to be honest if I were in combat I'd disable the turret and chassis safety features by default. I'd rather smoke immediately and then close the hatch instead of fumbling with the hatch for precious seconds without being able to do anything. For the driver too, if the motorblock gets damaged I'd rather not have the "you lost the cooling circuit, we'll shut off the engine for you right now while you're under fire so you don't damage it :)" feature. Disabling these does require the crew to know what they are doing to some extent though.
@@ando3087 with the training level in ukraine and russia... knowing what they do is not really the case for most tank crews
All the armor videos that I have seen were operating independently of either mechanized infantry and/or regular infantry support.
yes, that's interesting, isn't it?
possibly this is due to the prevalence of cluster munition artillery? armor is somewhat resistant to these
Generally what I’ve seen is usually only high up drone footage. In that it’s usually very hard to see any infantry but they are usually there. Reporting from Ukraine has lots of details of assaults that combined tanks covering fire while APC stormed up to drop troops at the trenches.
i am baffled every time when theres a lonely tank rolling around and then taken out. i wonder what going on there, i doesnt look like something you would want to do....but they know better in the field i guess.
@@simonschneider5913 and who should acompany said tank? and how exactly they/it would protect a tank from a drone or guided arty?
@@TheRifild see why i find it curious what theyre doing there? can you explain it?
During my time in Afghanistan as a British soldier, we very rarely used smoke traditionally. We noticed it acted as a bullet magnet, so if we did use it, it was either to distract (ie throw it one way, wait a moment and then move in the other way) or to make insurgents reveal themselves.
It was a weird conflict.
In training, we never had some available and it was genrally glossed over. We were told it could be used for signalling, but that was about it.
You were lucky that Russia wasn't supplying Taliban, otherwise there would have been lots of bodybags!
In 100 hours in Desert Storm During air and ground operations, U.S. and allied forces destroyed over 3,000 tanks, 1,400 armored personnel carriers, and 2,200 artillery pieces along with countless other vehicles. How?
Most of the enemy vehicles were destroyed by the USAF.
And Iraq was pummeled for month before.
But Russia is not weak as Iraq.
@@alek9195What you actually mean is that russia is not as strong as the US
These are fairy tales for young children, as the proverb says, a donkey loaded with bags of gold opens the gates of any fortresses, the Iraqi generals were simply bought so that they would not withdraw their troops from the garrisons, this is the truth.The Americans have never won wars!Because this is not a nation of soldiers, they cannot tolerate the loss of millions of soldiers, like the rest of the Europeans!
@@saltzkruber732 Russia is stronger then the US.
What is even more interesting earlier armies advanced trough countyside and got stuck in urban battles. Now going trough fields is almost suicid because of drones and artillery and advance is easier trough urban enviroment. Due to drones enemy can always see your forces.
This is only valid, if the enemy is willing to spare the lives of the civilians. If the Russians decided they didn't care about the civilians in the slightest, the towns would be turned into fields.
@@danielhalachev4714 this is flat out wrong. Russians have not cared about civilian lives on the slightest, No leveling modern cities and towns requires an absolutely excessive amount of explosives without nukes, so much that attempting it with conventional munitions would run any modern countries stocks dry.
@@danielhalachev4714 I mean, that's exactly what they are doing lmao
@@dylanroemmele906If that was the case, most major Ukrainian citizens wouldn't have a single citizen left. Also, all those politicians that visited Kiev in those 2 years would either be left under the rubble or they would have never gone there. Think before you speak.
@@danielhalachev4714 The rubble will still be there. And yes, advancing through urban areas in that scale likely requires that you destroy the potential for resistance.
Proliferation of drones, both military and consumer ones makes having the element of suprise extreamly hard. Which is needed for company or battalion size manuvers
based vulcanHDgaming footage
great video ... really comes down to doctrine for combined arms mobile warfare vs. the reality of positional warfare in Ukraine
And NATO having a consistent history of sucking badly in any sort of combined arms warfare.
Respect. Two of my favourite channels working together.
Smoke launchers aren't really used in US training for armor formations. I've been on tanks for 10 years (SEP V2 and V3). We used it once in 2015 and then once in 2023 to test the new tank gunnery table. Its not used because either the launchers are broke, its not safe, or units are not allowed to draw it due to it being seen as a waste of money for the unit.
As for the tanks using direct fire, No not on any of the tanks or in the books I got a MG school show that we have indirect capability. Its rather looked down on due to being a 'Waste of ammo'. Our Firing table books show a lot of info that Im sure it can be done, but American units are to ridged to come up with things like that because we are not trained. (While its COOL that we are so DISICPLINE, what a joke by the way, that we won't attempt to come with ideas and try concepts. Its not in our culture.)
Yes you are correct in the deployment of tanks in this war. Its something I've seen on my end. Though this also needs to be understood: The sexy idea of 'Tank on Tank' combat is just a sexy idea.
I get that we will always go back to '73 Eastings' but you must understand that majority of tank engagements in history were majority 'Tank on Troops'. NATO believes firmly that each platform will engage the same platform (Tank on tank, troops on troops) and you will never deviate from that. NEVER. Its not in the script.
Examples: NTC rotations for myself in 2016 and 2019. Hohenfelts Training Center for myself in 2018 and 2022. (I've been in ABCT's for my whole Army career.)
Tanks units only fought tanks in both NTC and Hohenfelts. We didn't see troops assaulting our armor positions. The only time we did is when we did it on accident and attacked the troops.
This ridged behavior prevents any form of 'Think on your feet' mentality. In my view it seriously discourages you to be flexible in a fight. More often then not, the idea that you as a tanker will fight anything other than tanks is just a joke and you are made fun of for it. For instance, the US Armor community views the MPF (Mobile protected Firepower) M10 Booker is a waste because 'IT CANT FIGHT TANKS!!!!!' When in reality its doing the job of an actual tank which is to SUPPORT THE INFANTRY WITH PROTECTED DIRECT FIRE SUPPORT.
OK, Im done.
I have a question, if you don't mind: what do you think about the effectiveness of the standard HEAT "multipurpose" projectile that you used as suppression of enemy fire points and other infantry/units support? How effective in this role do you think compared to Soviet/Russian HE projectile the OF-19/26?
I was a Jäger and not a Panzergrenadier in the german Bundeswehr but all I heard about the German Puma IFV why it's so different (and expensive) to every other IFV is, because german tank units NEVER fight without IFVs and thats why the IFV needs the protection level against MBTs. Every Platoon in an IFV has AT Weapons on them, too and the three parts MBT-IFV-infantry fight in a symbiosis against MBT-IFV-infantry. Its plan still is MBT against MBT but at least they think and train to be in the same place as tanks AND infantry...
That would mean that the germans knew better?
And by the way, thanks for the post. Based on the logic of both your armored forces and tank designs, especially the Abrams, I have the strong impression that the US Army has firmly absorbed the German WWII experience. Because not technologically, of course, but conceptually, the Abrams is another version of the Panther: a tank whose job is to stop the "endless" tank hordes rolling from the East. Your words further reinforced that impression for me.
@@maade9642 "That would mean that the germans knew better?" I think their Military was conceptualizing land warfare against the Warsaw Pact forces based on the AAR of your ex-nazi generals. You know, the "Hitler was a complete idiot, he should have listened to us (which he did) and this is how we fought the Bolshevik hordes brilliantly" ones.
HEAT on Tanks is not used and has been phased out as of 2016 by the US Army. So do with that info as you will. We used MPAT (Multipurpose Anti Tank) but it is not ideal. Its not a heavy enough HE load to do what it is needed against troops effectively. Soviet HE-FRAG is better because of the actual frag element vs the mid explosive of the MPAT or HEAT. To deal with troops we use Coax and CAN. But if i have to hit a bunker, then we use MPAT-OR. Though that is 3 rounds (MPAT, MPAT-OR, and HEAT) that you have to carry with in your ammo rack vs HE-FRAG where I can deal with all that and still have more room in the ammo rack.
While MPAT can be used for PC's, Buildings, and Helicopters they are not the best for dealing with troops due to lack of fragments. It has just enough explosive, but not enough. OR is also rare and heavy.
I consider, due to the role of Tanks in supporting infantry, the Soviet HE-Frag is a better solution for this. @@Ailasher
Hard to conduct the Western style of war without a lot of planes.
Oth, Soviet doctrine always assumed a disadvantage in the air, hence they made 1m AA systems.
Cheers Bernhard, well explained.
The old Soviets also made a doctrine that reflected their experiences with being invaded and outnumbered. An uncomfortable fact is the USSR actually had the numerical disadvantage until October 1943, and even were mismatched in artillery until March 1944. So they came up with ways to keep a front active while not committing to big engagements and concentrating their skills or resources, where needed to achieve important victories.
The later Soviets, and then the modern Russians, kept the assumption in war, that favorable advantages cannot be relied upon as a presupposition for assumption of operation. So they focus on leveraging advantages that are tougher to disrupt, such as artillery, saturation, armored, harassment, attacks armor as mobile fire support, and frequent misdirection attacks up and down the line of contact. So it’s never clear where the Russians are going to attack from and even if they’re outnumbered, they will force you to keep defending so they can build a local advantage, and then attack while you have to protect elsewhere to prevent multiple breakthroughs.
@@Mortablunt True, but over the course of the war they had a 5 to 1 advantage in tanks, and ample fuel to supply them
@@juliantheapostate8295 Russia was greatly outnumbered in 2022, especially after the contract soldiers left en masse in August of 2022. The mobilization of 300,000 reservists followed by a recruitment drive bringing in a average of 1,200 (1,400 by another source) recruits per day over the last year and a half has eventually reversed that situation.
@@juliantheapostate8295 Fuel & ammo more than sheer numbers on the Ostfront.
@@thechloromancer3310 Can you supply me with your source? Those numbers sound well off.
Turns out that using single, unescorted armored vehicles for probing attacks is a bad idea. Who would've guessed?
they need to hire you ASAP as you clearly know better than the entire strategic brainpower of NATO
@@sowianskizonierz2693 actually yes🤓☝️
@@sowianskizonierz2693 My guy, whenever someone calls out someone else "YoU're a BeTEer ExpErt ThAn MiLitaRy exPerTs" let's have a quick reality check. Both RU and UA (with assistance of US and A primarily) made horrible decisions throughout these two years and I don't have to be a Michelin star kitchen chef to tell you that shit on a plate is still shit on a plate, no matter who "cooked" it.
@@vanjamenadzer it's always the commenters who know best which military decisions should have been made.
@@sowianskizonierz2693 shut up nerd
great video! hope it does well...i love this kind of discourse. it helps everyone involved!
These videos on Ukraine and doctrine/tactics are great
Anglo/euro tactics do not work when used by slavs, and slav tactics do not work when used by anglos/euros. This is because the devs thought it would be less fun if everyone used the same meta build
Funniest comment, and true in a way.
All of the nations that have been corrupted by the Soviets all utilize the same basic formula… at varying scales of course.
They use the Soviet doctrines… in terms of Armies, Air Forces and everything in between.
They worked for the Soviets when they were a juggernaut… but they barely work even for the russians, who hold the majority shares of the soviet juggernaut.
@@PeterMuskrat6968they didn't even work for the soviets. After ww2, their only military operation outside of other Warsaw Pact members was Afghanistan. 100k dead Soviets within 10 years, and a humiliating loss
@@PeterMuskrat6968 maybe because American tactics only works on weak enemies who you can bully with airpower.
Russia have so many Anti-aircraft systems that it is pretty impossible unless it is most of US's air units/missiles against Russian Army. And then when Nukes enter chat.
@@AKUJIVALDOfact that NATO doesn’t have stuff like Pantsyr (mobile AA with guns and missiles) proves your point
@@innelator6941 what are you talking about? NATO has a different concept of AA and many different systems but the lack of a tracked vehicle (btw Romania still has Gepards) doesnt proof anything. the AA Gun vehicle was pretty useless until massive drones started to show up anyway.
Air Superiority can be assumed only against beduins. This will not work with majors
It will soon, they're developing Mach 5 scout/missile bait jets to bait Anti Aircraft weapons and atritive drones to shield stealth aircraft + Link 16 battle zone data share nodes. USA owns the Death Star basically. You aren't witnessing NATO combined arms in the first place.
Iraq
@@knowahnosenothing4862US doesn't even have hypersonic capabilities. This is what happens when you have to much estrogen in the water supply.
@@saltzkruber732😂😂 you mean The iraq military a 3rd world country
@@arnoldvezbon6131 'US doesn't even have hypersonic capabilities.' lol actually they are the only nation that does. They have multiple hypersonic vehicles (real ones, not just a modified ICBM that claims to be able to maneuver) in fact a new one was launched 2 weeks ago. To be clear, neither Russia or China have hypersonic missiles (i.e. steerable missiles). If they did then Ukraine wouldn't be able to shoot them down, which they do all the time.
Artillery smoke, smoke canisters, and the onboard smoke generators, can help primarily during a disengage. And the reason for that is that they do not persist. They have short duration, relatively low volume, and/or high cost. They are not adequate for any sort of large scale movement or breach.
For offensive actions, such as a breach or a heavily opposed advance, you need Mechanical Smoke produced by proper smoke generators. For example, the Humvee-mounted M56, or the Stryker-mounted M76. They produce high volumes of smoke that can be persistent (depending on the weather) and can be generated through extended periods of time. Moreover, the smoke can be made opaque to enemy sensors such as thermal optics, etc.
A company's worth of smoke generators can cover several kilometers of front and last as long as needed if proper supplies and maintenance are available. The smoke is not toxic and doesn't require the soldiers working under it to use any specialized equipment.
There are other tools that are part of the NATO Arsenal that need to be provided to UK in order for them to break the stalemate. Without those humble combat multipliers, proper NATO doctrine for this type of scenario cannot be implemented. A couple companies of smoke generators could be worth more than a few F-16's in UK present situation.
NATO doctrine is actually pretty comprehensive. It contemplates obstacle-based offense and defense. There are whole chapters in the Field Manuals dedicated to this, though they are rarely read by anyone below the level of a Company-Grade officer.
regarding use of NATO tanks for indirect fire, there are actually range tables and associated gun laying instruments on US tanks at least up until M60A3 that allow you to do that albeit in a limited manner.
It can be set up in pretty much the same manner as field artillery, and in fact was quite popular thing up until Vietnam war. Some old FM (I believe it was FM 17-xx series) also outlined methods for digging in/making berms for tanks to increase firing angle, how to conduct fire mission, etc.
I suspect that newer smoothbore guns and ammo are not considered to be particularly well suited for this, so that function got eliminated
With my very very limited knowledge on this topic, would smooth bore guns be ineffective as a HE shell would not spin as it left ? Or is it something else
@@Bornst3ll3r technically you can still make fin-stabilized shell for smoothbore weapons (similar to mortar), although I'm not sure how very high muzzle velocity gun and the ammo design itself affect that
but M1A1/A2 weren't even issued with dedicated HE shell anyway, the closest would just be M830/M830A1 HEAT
@@Bornst3ll3r Smoothbores use fin stabilization that is technically less accurate but when soviets switched to smoothbores decades before NATO they deemed the accuracy loss acceptable in direct fire as the 115mm shell was heavy enough to compensate through sheer energy - a smaller gun they would still consider being rifled and indeed they have with their light tank projects up until they crammed the 125 into one (Sprut-SD).
There are drones everywhere. It is hard to get a decent grouping of vehicles together when the enemy can see it coming. Minefields are everywhere with built in artillery zeroed in on those areas. No air superiority. No shock and awe.
I would love to see how NATO intervention would shake up the war now.
Russian artillery fired would drop off a cliff quickly because the logistics train would be de-railed by constant Missile and Air attacks.
No artillery=No success at offense.
As far as defense goes, that is the more interesting question.
How would we apply the overwhelming Air Superiority and to where would we apply it,
Can’t blast through the minefields, so it would just be a slow crawl through the stretches of minefields until we reach the other side.
Russians likely would not be able to effectively build new lines because they would be harassed by Air attacks.
The Dnipro frontline might even become a major focal point if the US can come up with a plan on how to get forces across the river.
Less Russian artillery and no real air strike capabilities would allow for pontoon bridges to be set up and armor to cross.
Which would turn that sector into a new Shock and Awe run.
@@PeterMuskrat6968 Iraqis also had minefields , quite extensive , but the fact of 2000 aircraft bombing them everyday gave the coalition quite some breathing room to clear them
Drones aren't the problem, have no idea about drones until after you lost everything is the problem.
@@PeterMuskrat6968 Fortunately for you NATO command unanimously disagree with your assumptions.
Also, China will start supplying weapons to Russia, and after both sides are in ruins, China attack Taiwan.
@@PeterMuskrat6968 You would catch nukes in your major cities and then none of your fan fiction would happen.
tbh, the problem is that "NATO styled doctrine/tactics" (in quotation marks because each nation developed their own doctrine) historically during the cold war were primarily focused on the defensive, rather than the offensive, and instances where a NATO force conducted an offensive strategy (ie the gulf war), they approached it the same way as something akin to bewegungskrieg, and by that I meant a surprise deep strategic strikes at military targets and C2 hubs (shock and awe), followed by driving a spearhead, manoeuvre to bypass, engage in decisive set piece battles to win freedom of manoeuvre, encircle all the cities/ launch decapitation strikes to finish the job. On paper this sounds fine, but in Ukraine pulling the exact same thing ended up disastrously for Russia, either because a lack in equipment, training, logistics, introduction of a variety of effective "anti-manoeuvrist" weapon systems, and the generally far more "near-peer" status of the two sides (the gulf war probably would have ended up very different if the Iraqis have drones, Javelins, thermals, and an air defense umbrella that could deter NATO air power). In a way, it is less of a failure of NATO doctrine/tactics but rather a failure of manoeuvre warfare in general, and how even a small infantry centric force now have the kit necessary to deter large armoured formations and can only be dislodged by attrition.
NATO tactics only work with total air dominance and ineffective enemy AA systems.
Iraq was the most heavily defended airspace in the entire southern hemisphere, far better than even 99% of NATO countries at the time- hell even better than the US as far as "home defense" Because they had so much less land to cover.
The Iraqis had the 4th highest funded army in the world at a time where military spending meant a LOT to most countries (you didn't hear about the "peace dividend" yet in 1991) S-200 and S-300 launchers, new soviet fighters and tanks, the works.
And it really wasn't a surprise because they (the coalition) spent more than 6 months building up their forces. The Iraqis KNEW they were coming, just not when.
The airwar lasted over a month before ground combat began for a good reason, the Iraqis would have slaughtered even US pilots if the US didn't ALSO have some of the best strategists in the world.
And one drone with a projectile is basically a thousand buck, while an Abrams tank is $8.92 million lol
Ukraine and Russia had and have been pretty similar in doctrine and Equipment so they know what to expect now.
Russia attempt to reach Kiev was blunt and not that well prepared and Ukraine fought them off with everything they had.
@@CultureCrossed64still the US had far more up to date weapons and further range and were well trained in it's employment.
I did not expect warno footage in a random video about ukraine that popped up in my feed lol. I've been playing it a lot lately
The answer is air power. NATO gets its power through air dominance, so without clear skies and fire support the blitz falls apart.
Just a caveat, NATO gets its power through AMERICAN air dominance.
Air power does not work with countries that have strong air defenses.
@@alek9195 kinda like the Soviet Union integrated so much AA defenses into their armed forces that two former Soviet states would have a hard time knocking it all out.
@@jchrystsheigh What are you talking about.
@@alek9195 Tell that to the US during Desert Storm when they faced one of the most dense air defence networks ever put together.
Re employment of Multi Barrelled Smoke Grenade Dischargers (MBSGDs). Here in Australia the doctrine aligns with US usage - i.e. popping smoke is almost an immediate action for the Crew Commander when the vehicle comes under fire. Usually our MBSGDs are covered by rubber boots so at least prior to first use, the maintenance issue is not very severe.
It should also be noted that MBSGDs on NATO vehicles are primarily defensive in nature, whereas those on Soviet type vehicles are more offensive in nature - due to the range they project the grenades.
I'm simply amazed that Anti-personnel guided missiles aren't already been done. Even ATGMs are used against infantry with great effect without regard to its cost so it'd be very easy to produce smaller missiles at scale to completely saturate the front with them. Proliferation of precision guided small explosives will completely change infantry tactics.
Good video, but the "air part" was a little to short for my liking. Nato doctrin relies heavily on joint fire support, and airwarfare is a really important part of it. Nato wouldn't fight without an capable air force.
One does not stop fighting because of lack of you'd like to have.
NATO can't fight without air superiority. That's a major problem. Meanwhile, Soviet/Russian doctrine always assumed that the air would be contested. Which is why they have a plethora of AA assets that merely needed to be upgraded to deal with drone threats. Meanwhile, NATO was stuck sending museum pieces into combat.
@@JurekOK what i meant was, that the West did not provide all that is needed for the operstion. Nato would not fight without airpower but expects ukraine to do so. You know what i mean?
@@Crosshair84 well some of those museum pieces are quite capable, like the gepard spaag. Lots of aa equipment was put out of service to save money and it was considered obsolete, because they did not expect a full scale war.
@@Crosshair84interestingly enough , western AA seems quite capable in this war
Nice analysis! And thx for using our baby for that!
Is it me, or does it feel like this video would have been perfect for a Military History Visualized?
WARNO is just beautiful game
No.
i quite enjoyed the WARNO footage lol. was even quite relevant, with ATGMs firing when he discusses ATGM, smoke when he talks about smoke etc
No
The Chieftain has actually commented on a likely reason for why smoke is not used by forces on either side. Namely that Soviet vehicle-borne smoke launchers are used in an offensive role, rather than a defensive one like in the West. Basically this comes down to Soviet smoke launchers having a rather large launch distance.
Thank you, Andrew.
NATO tactics wprk perfectly. They are not designed to win battles. They are designed to supply the most expensive gear with the most expensive serviceable equipment in an endless conflict using the most expensive munitions.
The industrial complex writes the NATO tactis to ensure financial gain.
Fr, crazy how most people dont realize the US rarely wins wars and just gets involved simply to make money
That Warno Game looks good, i played early 2000 a similar Game for Naval Forces , Janes "Fleet Command" was pure fun for years.
Hey, I was a US mortarman for two decades and trained the Ukraine and Russia soldiers (among many other nations). If you want more insight I am happy to give it, especially on smoke missions
A US serviceman training Russian soldiers?? What.
@@stephenhumphrey7935 Russia and US used to do many joint exercises. They stopped when Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014.
We trained US Forces for years about Jungle Warfare. We noticed you guys without air superiority can be routes out or surrounded. Smoke missions are useful while moving forward in open terrains. In Urban or vitigation terrain smoke missions is useless.
@@PinkFZeppelin So, the regime in Kiev shelling Ethnic Russians in Donbass since 2014 (the year of the coup d'etat in Ukraine by west-Ukraine, sponsored by America) isn't aggression? During those 8 years of shelling by the regime in Kiev, more than 11,000 ethnic Russians, men, women, and children were killed, and more than 40,000 injured .
@@rustyshacklferd1854the way he worded it to make it seem like russia was the aggressor was really deceiving
Super interesting good work thanks
Maneuver is rather limited because in this war battlefields are shaped by good coordination between UAVs, counter-battery radars and artillery. This combination makes "you're spotted -> you're dead" the main principle of this war, since a good amount of accurate firepower could be brought in minutes after target detection. As a result, movement is limited even in the rear areas, so amassing forces, or even supplying those who are on the front line without taking heavy losses would be a rather difficult task.
Because Ukraine isn't using NATO doctrine. Unleas they've massively hidden the air supremacy...
No, because NATO/Western tactics do not work unless the USAF has secured air supremacy.
Without the USAF in all its glory, all NATO ground forces (including the US Army) would be superbly defeated.
Interestingly while Russia could not really take over Kyiv or invade all of Ukraine, the Ukrainians could not successfully mount a counter-offensive despite real-time NATO (mostly USAF) ELINT and other support. Just goes to show.
@@MrBahjatt All the real time satellite intel in the world not going to help when your troops still have 10 miles of minefields to cross lol....
Ukraines' western sponsors believed that Nato doctrine could function without air supermacy. Now they know it cant.....
Btw, Ukraine did use Nato doctrine at the start.... they only abandoned that shit after taking massive losses.
It is NATO doctrine minus the air force. Which is exactly why it doesn't work. Good luck trying to achieve that against a military that isn't composed of goat herders and hairy men in slippers.
Oh and the F16s won't do anything new for ukraine lol.
On the topics of smoke: I can imagine 3 more reasons why smoke isn't used that are not mentioned in the video:
A: With drones around permanently, using smoke on your own position (for example by having it emanate from your vehicle) actually makes it *more obvious* where you are.
If a drone wants to spot a group of 4 vehicles, it either has to be quite close, or that formation is a series of small dots, painted in a similar shade of green as its surroundings and thus only really visible in thermal sights, potentially hidden under/behind trees, ...
If a drone wants to spot 4 armor vehicles that are "obscured" by smoke, it has to spot a huge (hundreds or dozens of meters across) blob of usually white (very much standing out against the foliage even in visible spectrum) fluff that billows out to above the tree tops.
Yes, the positions of each attacking vehicle in that smoke could is more hidden, but if the defender has something that can just hit the whole smoke cloud at once...
B: Using smoke on the position of the defender (or in between your own position and that of the defender) only really works if the defender is on the ground. But drones are in the air, and there's really no good way to deliver smoke to a specific position in the air (the smoke grenade/shell/canister will just keep dropping until it hits the ground). And even if you could make the smoke canister hang in the air, you can only do that if you know where the drone is *(in 3 dimensions)*, and then the drone is usually nimble enough to just move.
As a result, you can suppress the position where the enemy's small arms fire and MANPADs are coming from, but neither where the enemy is observing you from nor where they are launching their artillery fire from.
C: Explosive artillery shells can be used to *both* attrition the defenders *and* to suppress them in preparation for an incoming assault. Meaning if the attacker launches explosive artillery at the defender, they can't really know which of the two things the attacker is doing. Whereas if the attacker launches _smokes_ ahead of an assault, the defenders immediately know that it can *only* be an assault (or a pretended assault), since you can't really physically attrition defenders by launching smoke at them.
Gunners sextant is used to calculate angle of fire for use in indirect. I never saw it trained and I don't remember it in any of the 19K/11M skills manuals.
game looks interesting, however I have a question. If the op knows you have superior armor (and what looks like a superior force in general) why arent they laying down Anti Tank/Infantry traps and using strategic retreats to bait? Since you appear to be blitzkreiging their positions with bulk force pushes, he could systematically wipe out most of your front line assets with a minimal committal of counter force?
Warno models a meeting engagement not positional warfare
There's also to note the huge improvement in Operational Security on the russian side compared to one year ago, they managed to get their soldiers to keep the phones off, everything is managed by a dedicated infrastructure.
Thing with relying on *superior training* is that it doesn't help when OpFor don't play jousting with you and just level the area.
Thanks for this very interesting video. Of course there is nothing unique about shortages in war and deficiencies in training shaping real tactics as used in battle. It was certainly a feature of the eastern front in WW2, especially in the early years. Even so, I think everyone interested in how the Ukraine war is being fought should watch this video.
the only time i saw a Russian tank use smoke was at Stepove in the duel between the two Bradley and T90 and that T90 just hanged around after deploying smoke
Because it can't back out at high speed. No present day Russian tank can. It would have to turn its backside toward the enemy, and that's not a good idea, even with only 20 or 25 mm weapons shooting at it.
I've seen smoke used in a couple other engagements.
Numbers.
More complex tactics would be more efficient but would have less redundancy. One link breaks and the whole thing falls apart, combat efficiently of a unit would be significantly diminished. Ukraine did increase the use of air power during the counteroffensive, but didn’t achieve air superiority due to the lack of numbers.
Numbers would offer the much needed redundancy.
Small reminder that the US Air Force enjoyed overwhelming numerical advantage in the first Gulf war.
One can employ whatever a good number of tactics, if there is no strategy, or a strategy based on false premises, it will all fall apart. Including the Tables of Equipment and the logistics capacity.
With the lack of smoke use, is there an element of popping smoke providing the opposite effect to the intended one? When you assume your enemy has advanced optics and can spot a vehicle in the woods smoke will obsure that to prevent precision strikes. However, when you are faced with an opponent who simply drops indirect artillery fire onto a grid square then popping your smoke actually illuminates your position more!
I haven't even watched this yet, and NATO making Ukraine fight their way without Air superiority, was to my mind, criminal on our part
That would be absolutely criminal. But fortunately, we didn't force them to fight NATO way. They don't fight NATO way and never did.
Сама война на Украине - американское преступление.
In respect to the use of smoke grenade launchers on MBT´s: Sovjet Era MBT´s like T-72 seem to have a "dead man cirquit" in their crew hatches, that disable certain functions of the tank when the hatches are open.
Turret or Drivers hatches are open - smoke launchers are disabled.
Drivers hatch open - turret rotation/control is locked
So you can really only operate under closed hatches.
That might be one of the core reasons why we dont see much smoke use from MBT´s in Ukraine, as they just cant use it.
No it’s because smoke would invite artillery or rockets in under 3 minutes
It makes no sense to do it and put yourself in more danger
Finally an honest comment section have civilized talks about tactics and strategy, a rare sight these days
heard that IDF when going into Libanon a few years ago often times didnt have the smoke cartridges available. and that military operation was of rather short duration.
I see a bunch of comments about Air Dominance and don't get me wrong, it matters and it is a criteria to enable large scale operations! But I think a critical factor is missed in the discussion. How NATO enables tactics.
NATO tactics are not how people understand tactics traditionally. After Vietnam, the US was looking at how they did so shockingly poorly again men in skirts with AK's, when they had what they thought was the best kit in the world at the time they looked at their weapons inventories and how they want to fight and noticed a gross mismatch between the two. The US then began to start designing and building a whole fleet of new systems to enable all of the conditions they needed to succeed
This is the genius of NATO tactics because NATO as a whole went on to follow this exact train of thought! You want to breach a minefield, yeah you want the skies clear but that's not to enable the operation, that's to allow helicopter fire support and Wild Weasels to take out mobile AA. Then with the greater vision provided from an eye on the sky, saturation fires happen in tight boxes to eliminate all heavy fire power. Once heavy equipment is out of the fight, armour in the form of MBT's and IFV's form a line to begin suppressing infantry. Only then does the M1150 mine clearer show up! Shreader creates perfect straight paths though the minefield with the MICLIC, plows the land and drives the first 100 metres where Shredder is joined by an Abrams Wingman and a new Shreader to continue clearing. Each MICLIC and bulldozed area is 120 sq metres and takes good crews 10 mins for accomplish
So while Ukraine doesn't have Air Dominance, just getting F-16's won't win the fight. They also need to be able to operate a large number of systems, in a coordinated fashion and currently while they learn of this, we don't if this is how Ukraine can fight or even wants to fight. While we absolutely need to step up weapons deliveries, the great failure isn't the tactics, but listening and learning how Ukraine wants to fight, and then providing what we can to enable that way of fighting.
Spot on. Also, NATO generally has senior military leadership that understands NATO doctrine, not bunch of old Soviet trained generals who are still fighting 2014 war with somewhat new equipment.
Well said sir.
@@misarthim6538More like 1914.... because even in 1917 there were already new ideas.
what a crock.
Are you going to provide the soldiers then? Cause these weapons you're talking about ain't manned by dogs.
I'll commit to the "extrapolating from games to reality"-folly on this one... but I think the use of smoke is actually somewhat comparable in this regard.
If you don't know what you're doing, then smoke is worse than useless. As you say, it can benefit the enemy just like yourself.
But if you do know how to use it right, then it can be a game changer. Either greatly improve your own safety, or create absolutely oppressive situations for the enemy. Moreso in games than reality, where firefights are decided in mere seconds rather than hours, and indirect fire is less important... but obviously direct sight is an immensely important component in real military operations as well.
In the hypothetical context of a NATO force operating in Ukraine, smoke would probably both be extremely useful at keeping vehicles alive (such as the classic use of rapid position changes by combing the quick reverse speeds of NATO vehicles with smoke launchers) and during offensive operations in combination air denial/drone jammers. Even if we exclude the mass use of air power to supress enemy artillery that NATO would attempt, large scale smoke use can protect the crossing of mine fields and make it hard for the enemy to find out where to focus their artillery if they cannot get a good overview with drone spotters. Even drones can have fewer angles available to actually detect forces moving under smoke, making them more vulnerable to counter measures.
Does smoke work in an environment full of observation drones at all? It is based on sightlines. If eyes are everywhere that will fail.
Hi Bernie, you really should check out Combat mission series.
Before watching it: Isnt nato doctrine build on total superiority or slowing down the enemy when not in a superior position?
its build on: "go nuclear after 4 weeks"....and it shows...
@@simonschneider5913no? Only 3 nato nations have nuclear weapons
@@looinrims "participation"...they are/were all around europe.
No, it's not. It's built around delay tactics and maneuvers. Air superiority is never assumed and wargames usually assume that air superiority will be denied.
Human lives are valued in free countries so losing 100k KIA in only 2 years would be a failure
I think drones is what made things different. A real time data and cheap smart guided bombs practically made everyone move very slow with utmost alert from the sky.
Epaminondas rules are not possible to fulfil for now because of satellites, recon drones, thermals and good quality roads in the rear.
Mine fields are iffy if you don't have people and big guns supporting them. In the battle for 73 Easting the Abrams and IFVs drove through the Iraqi mine field and they set the mines off but they were going so fast little to no damage was done to the armor.
yea depends on how deep the mine fields are and how powerful. Try speeding through 60 kms of minefields and tell me how you will do
@@dracoboomin6511 The minefields aren't that deep. Most minefields these days aren't buried unless you're dealing with insurgents. Mines are emplaced using planes, artillery or mine scattering vehicles so they're on top of the ground and easy to spot. 99% of the time they're not even on the roads since the guy laying the minefleds has to leave a path open for when he does his offensive. Having teams or MGs, AT's and even armor covering a minefield isn't my opinion, it's minefield SOP. Not having an overwatch drastically reduces a minefiled's effectiveness. Want to know more? Read FM 20-32
P.S. From what I've seen neither the Russian or Ukrainian military's performance has been noteworthy. As far as I can tell it's been a multi year lesson on how not to fight a war.
As a former member of 2ACR , Training emphasized hi intensity Defense supplemented with quick Transition to HI Intensity Offense to exploit gaps in Offensive lanes or axis. Air superiority is a given, except occasional loss by enemy emphasis of Offensive on that axis. Training was frequent on M68 cannons (M60 series & M1 tanks) w/direction from Fire Direction Control targeting. Until the gulf War ( Verify w/ a txt. to Chieftain..... Excellent Video & topic ) Ex Cav Fan ....not-visualsed
You play Warno?
yeah
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized You should look at Broken Arrow. Quite a promising game WARNO and Wargame style.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualizedDoes WARNO fix some of the problems with Wargame: Red Dragon, especially ATGM teams getting spotted and killed by tanks while the missiles are still in flight, causing the missile to miss ALL. THE. TIME...??
@@Noble713 I don't know if it is exactly the same like in Red Dragon, but currently it is similar. (Spotting might be different.) Yet, I think there was also a mention that ATGMs should continue if there is loss of sight etc.
Smoke is not used too much on tanks for another reason, mines. Most mines are just scattered and smoke is no bueno
Shocking that a text book falls apart in the face of reality.
Just like Vietnam, if you design a doctrinal system to operate with certain expected parameters, and then decide that political considerations prevent those parameters from being put into effect, you must either adapt your doctrinal system, or operate inefficiently. It's a good idea to work up doctrines in accordance with realistic expectations about political considerations and other constraints, of course, so you don't have to develop doctrine from scratch in the field while you're already under fire, and it's also a good idea to consider letting doctrine guide political pressure to at least some extent.
That's where this war is being lost to the Soviets: For some reason, they're being allowed to dance political circles around Ukraine and its allies, which I have found perplexing from the beginning.
You ever been to/in present day(ok, of 2010's) Rossija? Haven't? Then, why would you use your cringe loanword from French that describes the past? Because you are smarter than anyone around?
The Soviets?
@@EvilSmonker He's still in Cold war. Probably torturing people trying to get false evidence of them having allegiance to communism. And shooting down Italian airliners which carry national oil company's CEO, because only in Soviet Russia there's "no god" therefore people suspiciously fall out of windows.
Also, if you think you're losing to the Soviets, wait til you meet the Russian federation 😂
It's intentional, once you understand this war is choreographed to prevent MAD. The US could flatten any country in the world in a week even after nuclear exchange in conventional warfare. It's a low boil war for war hawks to make money out of.
Air superiority as a prerequisite is a dangerous assumption.
If your plan has to be perfectly executed, it's a bad plan.
It isn't the same to fight Third World countries and to prepare for a major confrontation with a serious enemy. It feels like the British confident to start WWI because they had defeated the Boers and the Zulus.
amaizing game
damn the game footage at 02:48 was building up so much I kept not paying attention to the good points xD
As a Danish Veteran - the lack of smoke on footage of Ukraine is actually rather interesting. Maybe the supply of smoke grenades are also just limited? I mean - to use smoke as smoke should be used.. you are using a lot of smoke regularly.
When you consider how much air power is a corner stone in NATO doctrine.. I can understand why it wont work... I guess the Ukraine tactics is a hybrid between NATO and Soviet doctrine?
On the point of WARNO - I recall having conversations with former colleagues while we were playing back in year 1.. that it was wild how the vehicles we were maneuvering in the game.. was exactly the same In Ukraine right now. (even more so when Marders and Bradleys were sent to the front)
A good and well-rounded video. The thumbnail and title don't need to be clickbait though.
I love and play Warno BUT i think that is little bit distracting from the actual content
As stated the video and content developed rather rapidly and originally it was intended as Ukraine Veteran about Warno.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Adam Something analyzed it perfectly. Zaluzhniy received much less than 1/4th. of the hardware that he had requested for a long, protracted push to the pre-February 24th. borders if that was possible, and on top of all that, Ukrainian troops received only appalingly basic NATO training.
There's simply no way that Ukraine can keep on going like this unless USA and NATO finally decide to start having balls and send Tomahawks and ATACMS in large numbers to help them, but so far, this conflict has only been ever kept alive due to token arms transfers, which end in nothing if the equipment is going to be used like shit, and not how exactly it was mean't to be used.
NATO and USA's faults are dragging their feet to get shit done, like we saw with the first attempted transfer of MiG-29 jets to Ukraine, and Ukraine's faults for this counter-offensive are this poorly-prepared and executed rush towards a prepared enemy, and overall poor command structure when it comes to mechanized warfare on an open ground, even without air support. Why send priceless F-16 jets to the Ukrainians if American-made cruise missiles and air defense systems do the work just fine?
My point is: The worst thing about this war is that it has only been kept alive due to token arms transfers, all from donations, while NATO, USA and it's allies lack balls and have been dragging their feet for the entire war. Zaluzhniy received much less than 1/4th. of equipment that he needed to go back to pre-February 24th. borders. It's better to send Tomahawks, ATACMS and SAM systems rather than F-16's and Abramses.
It's essential nowadays that we bring once massive industrial buildings that helped us win WW2, like the Detroit Arsenal Tank Plant, back into use so that they could help win the war in Ukraine by vastly overfilling the shortage of artillery shells and equipment sent to fight. I personally believe that the war in Ukraine might have been won if the West wasn't dragging it's feet, sent Zaluzhniy exactly what he wanted instead of the 1/4th. that he got, supplied his troops with more essential stuff and if Ukraine revised it's tactics, then the counter-offensive wouldn't have even failed. It ashames me and saddens me to see what has happened to America, or more rather, Miss Columbia's old war industry from WW2 or places like the Ruhr industrial valley. So much decay and neglect when we need it the most. Technology has advanced, where it isn't now vast armies fighting like in WW2, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to mass-produce at least IFV's/APC's anymore, or lots of artillery shells of multiple different calibers to keep the war effort going.
I would be at tears when i saw what modern war has become after we retired some essential components that made it good in the past, like for example, streamlined and simplified mass production. But now, an M1 Abrams tank is apparently just so advanced and complex that we can't even supply these in larger numbers to Ukraine, despite America literally having dozens of thousands in storage, and yet, they had the audacity to only supply Poland just 116 hand-me-down retired M1A1 FEP tanks leftover from the United States Marine Corps retiring it's own tank fleet, literally telling us that "this was all they had"? And what, they're keeping all of those M1A2's dusting in sand for Ukraine despite them dragging their feet the entire time? Come on! When the US was sending over Shermans to Europe in WW2, nobody asked for it and all of that firepower was more than welcome. Well, look at the US and NATO now. What a joke. Out of 450 retired ex-USMC M1A1 FEP tanks, they gave us only 116?! For this number of second-hand "hand-me-down's", America could've given us at least 250 M1A2 SEP V3 tanks for fucks sake.
We lost what to be proud of anymore, and we need to gain that back.
It's too late for the F-16's and M1 Abramses. It would have been a much better idea to send large amounts of long-range ATACMS (AtaSeeEms) ballistic missiles, Tomahawk cruise missiles and lots of modern SAM defenses for a protracted defensive war.
America has shit-tons of M1 Abrams tanks literally just sitting out there, stockpiled in the desert, and they must be whipped into shape in order to send them like they were sending M4 Shermans to Europe during WW2, a scale which sadly we aren't even seeing today.
This is starting to remind me of Britain's budget cutting spree in the lead up to the Falklands War, same level of unpreparedness and carelessness, a collapsing gerantocracy, lack of self-improving countries and no national pride.
With this much of a passive giant even more than during the Great Depression before America entered WW2 in 1941 after it took the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, what would even be any use having the United States as an ally when nowadays it wouldn't even react much once attacked in peacetime?
If they really don't need all of those 3,400 Abrams tanks currently in storage, at this rate i can just buy out the entire United States military by myself if their management is so passive, weak in pride and unwilling to act in terms of achieving world peace by stopping totalitarian leaders from achieving world dominance.
@10:30 you talk about ground surveillance radar. Maybe you should do a video about that. I don't understand why these radars cannot be jammed. You should do a dedicated video about night vision in the Ukraine war. I am very surprised that NATO night vision has not lived up to my perception of NATO equipment, that I got from American sources. I really believed we owned the night.
Well, I mean we do.
Not every Ukrainian infantryman gets a pair of NVG’s, and not every Russian infantryman gets a pair either.
All of our frontline troops will have them, so we can still effectively do nighttime engagements with minimal problems.
No commercial?
The drones role was underrated. Basically, these small and cheap artifacts make useless or less effective the smoke use and many of the NATO tactics based on surprise and constant movement.
It wasn't underrated by Ukraine. Russia had none at the start.
@@skyworm8006 I mean in this vídeo.
smoke can, and has always been used, to obscure aerial observation - that's one of the reasons why airborne ground surveillance radar is a thing
drones are not really that much different if faced with proper smoke ops, in fact their onboard EO sensors are not particularly great and will be even less effective than those onboard regular planes unless you got a large UAV, which for all intents and purposes are basically more expendable prop planes
Lets not forget Ukraine is not a NATO member and is only receiving the support of them.
Ukraine as a military was mostly still based on old soviet doctrines afak so it's not a shock that they aren't finding much success with a military that's suddenly had to change doctrine and has to learn everything from the ground up again with some hand holding.
Now if we saw a full mobilization of all NATO member states then the results would probably be quite different.
Very different...most of Europe would be a radiated wasteland.
@@soaringbumnm8374most of Russia too
Considering NATO can't adequately supply Ukraine, and is outproduced by Russia alone, I'm not sure how its mobilisation would help. Deploying more men to the field, without solid logistics against a firepower superior force, is called a meat grinder.
@@chico9805 NATO fights air wars
NATO doctrine is based around air superiority. And most NATO countries couldn't achieve this without the presence of the US.
wait a min arnt most atgm's heat projectiles. I dont see how a jet of molten copper is going to do much dammage against personal unless the very unlucky change of a direct hit and im not even shure then the fuze would go off if hitting a soft target like that
I think the smoke aspect is actually simple in genius. Attack or defending it has tactical and psychological effects and is not extremely complicated. E.g instead of active protection deploying smoke would stop majority of drone attacks.
There's insufficient numbers of anything to employ Operational doctrine at any level, be it Russian or Ukrainian. This is war done on the cheap, with little-to-no depth of reconstitution on either side.
While your take is uncommon, I think there's merit to it. Most of the videos seen of an 'attack' are usually a dozen guys or a handful of tanks. Then I recall a video right as Russia entered...whats it called. Orechtenivo? The town NW of Avdiivka. Suddenly a drone spots about a hundred dudes piling out of a building all at once and a day later the entire town was captured in a major shock. I recall a video two years ago of 4 guys "attacking" the Pisky overpass. Two Russians held back, another moved up, but only one guy approached the overpass to attack it.
This war really is being done on the cheap, but when forces do get concentrated progress becomes possible again.
Just like Cold War battles,
American western doctrine bases its strategy mostly in sync with massive air power.
Soviet Russian doctrine is a mastery of artillery and infantry infiltration.
Without air power the western trained armies are trained to be dependent on, the Soviet strategy will overwhelm them.
With the airpower support for the western trained armies, the Soviet strategy will struggle
Vietnam War is an example.
I think it has more to do with the fact NATO is used to fighting poorly armed and trained militias they can airstrike, and not a conventional military.
didnt they know that they run a tactic depending on air superior as they ran into death without air support ?
Against whom ??
Buddy The enemy had SAM defence system, how the He'll F16 gonna give Ukraine air superiority??
Ukraine tried NATO tactics in their "counter" offensive. They ran into Russian minefields and other defenses and got totally obliterated. Hence the now infamous Bradley square. What we learned so far from this war is, that NATO tactics are unusable without air superiority and air support. That means any country that is in danger of getting attacked by NATO will probably have to make sure they have good (Russian) anti air weapons.
Also watch out for mines!
NATO turned out to be a paper tiger.
"Everyone has a plan, until they get punched in the face" -- Mike Tyson
@@ZappyOh how did NATO turn out to be a paper tiger if it didnt fight in that war? Remember that if NATO was pulled into a full scale conventional conflict would probably completely obliterate russian air in a month lmao. Keep dreaming
@@ZappyOhThe real issue is political, which, to be honest, isn't that surprising. Not many people want to spend billions of dollars sending some random Eastern european country top of the line fighter jets and bombers. If they did, it's almost certain that Russia wouldn't stand a chance, but right now Russia is sorta banking on wavering support in the West while they gamble their whole economy on this war. Basically it's a difference in motivation, and while I don't think Europe is motivated now, if Russia moves any farther West, I guarantee things will change.
@@123four... You do understand, that Russia have more nukes, and better delivery systems, than anyone else, right? I'm pretty sure, that direct western participation would be dealt with harshly.
They are even saying so openly, as to drive the point home, that we are playing with fire.
In my view, NATO have no teeth, because what we have invested in, simply can't be used as intended.
Many judge the war based on opening overconfidence of Russia. They thought they will be welcomed as heroes saving Ukraine, they did not expect resistance. So they thought they could take Ukraine just rushing to Kiev. Many took this as military incompetence, but that is not really the case. It was an intelligence problem. And honestly that kind of logic is underestimating Russians. What happens in Ukraine is when the sides have comparable level of tech. People become too complacent on how war works watching US fight poor people. And this "NATO tactics" thing is the part of the same problem.
Underrated comment
The point of origin of Russia's failure in the February/March 2022 offensive certainly is to be found in the intelligence department, however the Russian armed forces absolutely did display great levels of incompetence at the same time : first failing to account for the possibility of resistance, failing with logistics, failing to adapt rapidly to a "we are at war" mindset, failing with air defences, failing to suppress Ukrainian air forces, air defences and anti-ship capabilities, etc. And then there are the mindless assaults on strategically unimportant positions that cost Russia tens of thousands of men even in the recent months. Not to forget, quite importantly, the performance of many supposedly advanced Russian weapon systems, which have definitely proven to be stuck in the 20th century in terms of capabilities, even despite having been hyped for years as Russia catching up to the US.
Now it is true that Western forces shouldn't be complacent. Even with some level of incompetence on Russia's side, their doctrine was still forged in fire and blood, and they are absolutely not dumb enough to not make use of what advantages they have. Russians are still capable of using their artillery, their mining capabilities, their long range cruise missiles, etc. And while their air defences are certainly not performing to the level they were expected to by pre-war international observers, they are still a major presence forcing Ukraine to only make limited use of air power (combined with Ukraine limited air forces of course).
@@MadManchou I agree with some of the stuff, but still people underestimate how many things can go wrong in a war. There are many stories from US veterans on how things went wrong on various theaters like Iraq or Afghanistan on internet. Only difference was the enemy was not capable to use or even recognize those weaknesses.
And even costly frontal assaults are not that senseless if you know how Russians work. Any other western nation would refuse to go that blunt, and probably lose. But no cost is too great for Russians, if they win in the end. They did the same thing in ww2.
I would point out that this did have a lot of success elsewhere as Russia marched into the south without a fight and took the land bridge without a fight, except for specifically the city of Mariupol. It was Kiev that had the most trouble but I think the problem was that Russia moved quickly, bypassing urban areas, lacking control of the rear and this is where their logistics got caught up by small teams of Ukrainians. This choice in tactic and insufficient troop numbers to neither control the rear or take Kiev, would imply that Russia didn’t intend to take Kiev or even hold cities. I think it was a rush to pressure Ukraine to the negotiating table. By the 2nd day of the invasion, Russia had already pursued negotiations. Also, there was no such battle to push Russia out of the Kiev region, they simply withdrew. I think it’s accurate that Russia agreed to leave the region as a condition of the peace treaty that was showing promise as the Ukrainian negotiators have since reported. It would seem that Russia believed it would quickly end with negotiations and were themselves incredibly unprepared for this war. I think that is exactly why the west had such confidence at the beginning, and seeing an opportunity, they told Ukraine not to negotiate.
@@randomdude8202 Costly frontal assaults might make sense in the Russian mindset, they are nonetheless a manifestation of incompetence - Russian officers are stuck in a mindset where the Russian bear has endless waves of bodies to throw into offensives, whereas in reality their manpower is very finite, and becoming more finite every year.
"No cost is too great" is the philosophy that makes you lose wars, not win them. If from the outset, losses do not scare you, how can you be expected to make effective and efficient use of your ressources ? A competent military shouldn't shy away from confrontation, obviously, but it should be conscious of the value of its personnel and equipment and not throw them away willy nilly.
BTW, I remember MHV actually demonstrating that the idea of the soviet human wave tactic "winning WW2" is mostly a myth, considering the casualty ratios by the end of the war were actually pretty fair for an offensive. Soviets also won ww2 in no small part because the West was also there pulling its own weight, even though tankies love to claim the soviets did 90% of the work.
Gunner's sextant is still BII for M1 tanks so presume also all Leopard variants as well. Yes, the smoke grenade launchers do need to be oiled and cleaned. I suspect it's a training issue. You could just use regular smoke grenades too. Using the smoke generator is dangerous on poorly maitained tanks/track due to fire hazard and low training proficiency. Probably few Russian crews were ever trained on it.
I wonder if any 'doctrine' will ever work against determined and capable adversary.