6.5 NEEDS-MORE | Factory ammo test - sound issue fixed.
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- čas přidán 3. 10. 2022
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Thanks for the redo. I'm very interested in the Needsmore series.
Hopefully, part of this series includes doing some of your own loads with, maybe, the top three performing bullets to see how much tighter you can make those small groups. Maybe shoot at a longer range, for that part, to see how much the factory ammo groups open up.
Loving this series.
Hornady ELD-M = Match ELD-X = hunting - I thought your last video was pretty good despite the audio issue.
Awesome show guys. Loading for my 6.5 I have found the ideal weight for the twist on the rifle ( T3x CTR) is between 140 and 143 grain. I've gotten hand loads on the stock rifle down to .26 with the Accubond long range (142gr) but unfortunately haven't been able to find the ELD-X bullets themselves, only the factory loaded cartridges. Those ELD-X are my go to for out of box performance and fireformed brass.. haven't stepped up to the big leagues of AMP annealers and Lapua Brass yet like you guys.
Thank for this, was an awesome video!
I completely agree. If I need out of the box, I have had the best luck with ELD-X
Love the show
Jason does a great job with compiling the data and he is a good trigger man.
Effective team
Great stuff Eric
Thank you for your time hard work and willingness to share your knowledge.
Wisconsin hunter here! Anywhere from 20 yards to 300 yards where I’m at! Love the content!
The amount of knowledge on this channel is delightful.
You guys flat putting in work on this, greatly appreciate it
Our pleasure!
I just bought a Savage 6.5 Creedmore Mdl. 10 with a heavy 1 in 8 twist barrel. It was in my price range. I am waiting for the Arken scope I ordered to get here. It seems that I was a day late and a dollar short buying this gun. Your ammo test should save me some money in my own testing. So, you did convince me that in order to get the accuracy I am hoping for then I need a tuner. There is a new 1000 yd. range opening up near my home and hope to shoot often. I really enjoy watching your programs and always learn something new. Not bad for an old fella…lol
Eric, I love your show. I love exploring the minutiae of variables in hand loads and commercial ammunition.
Lot to lot variation has been the reason I only buy factory made is when I need brass.
The most tested brand was Federal Power Shock .308 150 grain.
I had 5 boxes each of 10 different lot numbers. No two lots shot the same. One lot shot MoA.
After 2 x 5 shot groups from each lot were test fired; the 9 lots that didn't shoot good were disassembled, inspected, weighed and assessed.
8 of the 9 had charge weights that varied 5 to 7 grains.
One lot had a change of powder (from stick to ball) and had a primer change (indicated by different color priming compound).
Having averaged the charge weight I reloaded 8 lots to within 0.1 grain. Brass was re sized.
Groups shrank from 3 to 5 MoA to around 1. Velocity went from an extreme spread of 200 fps to 20.
Remaining components were repurposed for other projects.
I've done similar with R1M1, but it's a pain removing the bullet sealant. 7 inch groups to 1.5
I'd love to nerd out with you sometime.
Nice video; keep'em coming.
I started shooting in the early 60's and Federal then was the dirtiest, mis-firingest, hang firingist ammo there was. Because I was a kid I bought Federal because it was the cheapest and allowed the lawn mowing money to go the furthest.
Thanks for putting in all that work... Interesting
Good information guys. I hand load but try to help others and have explained the importance of shooting various factory loads to see what shoots best in ones on rifle. This information should help people save money on something that may never shoot.
Thanks guys. Interesting stuff.
Very useful info for when I am contacted asking what ammo to buy (I’m the gun guy of most people I know) I’ve had fantastic results on stock and custom rifles using hornady eld-m and eld-X factory. I have not shot much else besides Berger and Prime as far as factory ammo is concerned since I load everything else. No surprise that those 3 performed so well.
I love these videos.
This is Great I have picked Hornady to set a EC Tuner I have on a Bergara Pro 6.5 cre It was shooting very good but with your tuner it is a tack driver Many Thanks
Great info!
I love Barnes ttsx. I'm just starting to develop loads for their LRX.
I got a 6 ARC gas gun and Hornady Black shot 4 moa. I reloaded 58vmax & 103 eldx with groups from low powder on up and dialed both of them in. None of my reloads shot poorer than the Hornady Black factory load. I loaded Hornady 140 BTHP match for my nephew's 6.5, and he's 3/4 moa. I've had good luck with Federal Premium.
Great video. As a future suggestion, assign the different ammo a number and then use a random number generator to pick the shooting order. This will quiet the "experts".
I just got my 6.5 rifle and picked up a couple boxes each of Hornady American whitetail 129 and eld-x 143.
Good video. This is a great video to show the guy who just buys “what ever “ for
His rifle
Great show. If ya have no tuner try pushing the seed in .003 at a time. I got creedmoore sports ammo to shoot from 1”+ to under 1/2 by pushing in .012 for my .308. Sure it would work any other seeds.
Jason/Erik any input on doin this?
A couple years ago when I started shooting 6.5CM I got into using S&B 140gr FMJBT. For me they've been running about 1moa; some groups a little bigger, some a little smaller.
I've been thinking about taking a long range class but for that I'll probably go with Hornady Match. Either their 140gr or 147gr ELD.
My AR10 loves the ELDMS I get .6 to .75 groups at 100 yards and I'm not a great shooter. I have a Faxon 24" match barrel on it. Amazed at the accuracy for a gas gun!
Interesting. My Criterion 6.5 barrel Loves Aguilla. I guess every barrel has a personality.
There must be 1000 ways to test this ammo. I like the way that you did it. I've tested a few, and the only disappointing one that i found was the Nosler match grade ammo. It was about the most expensive 6.5CM, and shot near the worst out of my rifle. My simple test, similar to yours. Thanks for the vid, Erik, Jason Edit, I only shot 6 brands, all match ammo.
Sqi andiscan is the box also there's the bulletseeker mach 4.. you guys should test them both with the labradar
Not too long ago I think I heard you guys mention that the next step was going to be reloading for the NEEDSmore series. Just wondering when will that start?
What is the twist rate of the barrels measured? Lighter does not fit the twist rates maybe.
Great info. Thanks for the vid.
Always thought of remington and federal as the bottom barrel ammo. Gonna add Aguila to that list now. Thanks for showing us!
It depends on the rifle! I've shot some of the same ammo in a Bergara rifle and their shitty stuff did great and vice versa. I'm also not a precision pro shooter either though.
@@user-ee4jy5pp7m true, but as a wise man once said, quality in, quality out!
Far less than who makes it mattering is what it is...120 gr TMJ range-plinking ammo is NOTHING like 143 gr hunting or 130 gr MATCH. How do people not see this?
Sure it does matter somewhat as to who makes it, but that can be typically seen in the price, along with the tier of rounds you are buying, and then the luck of it working in any given rifle at that twist, and seating depth, and velocity, and E.S. / S.D. and type of projectile. It's crazy to see how people and their brand-recognition just washes over the actual variables involved.
It'd be like comparing a Pinto to a Corvette and saying..."Ford sure is garbage".
Remington and Federal make some good ammo and they make some that should be plinking only. Just like all brands. Federal GMM loaded with SMK is good ammo. Remington Premier Match used to be good. No idea if they even still make it. Aguila is just plinking ammo in general in my opinion. I wouldn’t buy it for anything other than that. I have bought lots of 9mm Aguila 115 FMJ ammo and was quite happy with it. It used to be dirt cheap up until the pandemic at Gander. You could buy it for 6.85-7.50 for 50 rounds almost any day you wanted it. I figured for that price it was plenty fine to shoot steel plates with.
It would be interesting to measure the base to ogive on all these ammo to see 1) how closely their consistency matches the group size results, and 2) How re-seating each type of ammo to closely match the ammo with the best groups would improve the groups of each ammo.
For #2 I imagine we’d see much better results, but only because we made the seating depth much more uniform, and not so much because we matched the harmonics of the barrels. Given we’ve already seen that two different barrels produced very similar results with the same ammo, it’s probably not likely that the ammo performed poorly solely because it wasn’t in the correct node. - I guess you could test this too by re-seating each bullet to the average base to ogive measurement of its box. If the ammo does better, you know if was primarily due to inconsistent seating depth. If it only improves marginally, then that would suggest it had more to do with being in the right node for the barrel (but I suspect this would not be the case).
The Aguila and Federal American Eagle are more like a shotgun pattern ! Sadly I bought 2 boxes of Aquila because I could not get any brass for the last 6 months.
When I first bought my creedmoor I bought federal AE for the brass. It's small primer brass and works ok. I never really even tried to shoot it for groups. That is horrendous.
Sure the Berger and Federal had low SD but the drastic group size difference appears to consider the bullets themselves and that makes sense. 😉 You bought what was available and all the Good Stuff was gone. I suspect Top Tier Federal would been very satisfying to shoot. 🤷♂️ Nice video and thanks for sharing the knowledge.👍👍
It would be fun to see if you can make the federal shoot
Nice #!!!😊
How do you keep getting Berger bullets? Or is it a team/sponsor thing?
Eric. You showed the accuracy and consistency of the different ammo but you kinda suggested to take the match ammo on a hunt and maybe that’s ok but I would suggest a true hunting round be used
So should I buy the green or black SPS stock? I can’t get over how well it’s keeping up with or surpassing the chassis’d gun.
This is Great , so the question is we know the Hornady at $40 a box is acceptable accuracy, how much is loading your own cost and accuracy will benefit you?
Erik please answer
When you consider the number of times you can reuse good brass, even expensive Lapua brass will only cost an average of a nickel per firing over its lifespan. That being said, it costs roughly 55-60 cents per round to handload with 140 ELD-Ms and current component prices versus nearly four times that if you buy factory. ELD-Ms are what I use in my handloads for 6.5 Creed. With a load tuned for my rifle plus an EC tuner, I can average 0.3 moa groups all day long.
Thank you for proving Federal is garbage ...I always said this. I'm surprized by Barnes and Nosler the most. I have had fairly good results with Norma in multipul calibers and settled with ELDM's for my developements because Bergers are almost 20 cents more a bullet proving you get what you pay for. Great Video! Here was my prediction before watching the results (unEdited)
Worst: Agilla,Federal,Winchester,Nosler,Barnes.
Best: Berger, Hornady(both),Norma, Sig.
I'm surprised by the Barnes performance, too. They were bought by Sierra during the Remington bankruptcy sell off, so, I expected them to be better. I can't imagine that any of the old Remington owned Barnes production was still on the shelves anywhere, especially in 6.5 CM.
If you think Federal was proven as bad by this, then you fell for some REALLY bad interpretation and you even proved it out with your slanted bias causing you to miss the actual results. 120gr TMJ was proven bad, FAR more than "Federal" was. As was 129 gr FMJ. But you forgot to mention Aguila. ooops.
Your "rankings prediction" should look more like:
Worst: Target/Plinking/cheaphunting
Best: Expensive match & expensive hunting.
And guess what? That's what the results were. shocker!!
Also your predictions are basically arranged by price - which they completely ignored.
It would be Nice if you pulled those rounds appart and weigh the powder and the bullits for consistency.
My 6.5 likes the 123gr Lapua Scenar bullets almost as much as my hand loads. Great round for me out to about 600 yards.
Has cryo treating barrels to relieve stress just gone by as a passing phase?
This goes to show people, buy one each box of ammo, try and see what YOUR RIFLE likes, not what the box says, or your buddy, or Uncle JOE BLOW. Test your rifle and see what IT LIKES. You don't need fancy setups, just rifle, ammo, targets, sharpie, notepad and dial calipers. Get out there and try out different stuff. Your results my surprise you.
I would be curious to see two other variables.
First, 5 or 10 rounds shot with the gun in a vise, totally eliminating the shooter, versus the same number of rounds with a prone or bench shooter, whichever they felt was more accurate.
Second, the variation from batch to batch. Buy one box now, buy another box in two? months from a different manufacturing run. See if those groups are the same.
I see that the Bar (Standard) the Federal Natch King Gold...ir the Federal With Berger Bullets didn't get in the group.They alway h ave th I se at my Academy..But Hor b ady gas shot best for me
The group you got with the federal American eagle looks like what I got with American eagle in my 30-06. Which my 30-06 can shoot Winchester 180gr ballistic silvertip into one ragged hole at 100 yards. Yeah, I’m not impressed with American eagle in anything larger than 5.56 62gr green tip
If you take the American Eagle, measure the Base to ogive you will see its all over the place, varied.030” in what I had. Run a seating depth test, find a depth it likes and seat all the bullets at that depth and it will shoot. I did this with American Eagle for .308 with 150 fmjbt and it went from 2-3 moa to around 1moa consistently.
Saw that drastically be true with some Winchester Silvertip last night...3 weights in .30-06 all had considerable variance. Imagine if you had taken that A.E. and dumped all the powder and weigh them to all be precisely the same charge. And then trim all the cases to identical length...Now you nearly have match ammo and invested all of the quality control that comes more with match ammo than it does with plinking ammo that people use to do mag-dumps out of their AR-10, and not comparing it to rounds that cost double or triple to be able to blame the brand.
@@ShastaBean i didn’t even pull or trim just set them all BTO of 2.124” ish, which is a massive amount of jump but it worked. It was old stuff that had 1998 manufacture date which was shot in 2022.
Surprised the heck out of me.
@@williamkillingsworth2619 so if I read it right...you actually seated them deeper than they were out of the box?
@@ShastaBean Correct. I can’t remember the range but I sorted them then ran seating depth test test in .006” increments. They shot best at that measurement and ran with it.
I think the biggest take away is cheaper factory ammo, the base to ogive measurement is not precise. That alone can cause problems, ie point of impact shift.
My Bergara HMR likes the 143 ELD-X and my Aero Precision AR10 likes the 129 White tail from Hornady.
Is it the Bergara HMR pro in 6.5? If so, you should try federal whitetail 140grain. Very accurate in my Bergara. Just being curious.
@@user-ee4jy5pp7m Yes it is a 6.5 CM. it shoots 1/2" MAO or less (depending on the day) at 100 yards. My AR 6.5 CM shoots the 129s at about 3/8" MOA. I will have to try those 140s. Thanks
Why have fluted barrels, which are supposed to cool faster and flex less, fallen out of fashion?
Ive never had really good luck with Federal. Federal brass is crap also!!!! As far as factory rounds Hornady is better at least for me!!! The Federal pistol rounds are awesome!!!!
Well, you have shown me the four worst groups I have ever seen from a centerfire rifle!😂 I would like to see you take some of the better loads and see how much the tuner can improve them.
Data is always good. The interpretation of that data is where things can get tricky. Especially if you are bringing your bias into it. Attributing poor groups (or tight) to the brands is seemingly very much missing the point that you are actually comparing basically 3 TYPES of ammo (target/hunting/match), of various weights (120 - 143gr), but also of various brands. So variable-control is totally out the window with this very small sampling. And of course as you say, availability is a constraint. Seeing a graph with target/plinking FMJ/TMJ ammo with the biggest spreads (Aguila & Federal) should be no surprise, regardless of Brand. Seeing tightest groups with expensive match should also be no surprise, regardless of Brand. Giving Berger & Hornady a nod because top-shelf ammo was used in those brands is just as faulty as blaming Federal or Aguila for their cheap range-ammo not giving 1/4" groups is misplaced. Loved the data. But the Bias against Federal is a bit odd to see it clouding results interpretation so dramatically. So, the cheapest ammo did worse than the most expensive. You didn't really even discuss prices. But don't buy Federal everyone. I see other commenters eating up that notion. Crazy what people will fall for. Even though actual proper testing with some variable control could actually end up proving that Federal (maybe even their garbage Fusion) might shoot better than anything on the planet. Or maybe it wouldn't.
The ONLY thing that the word "Federal" should be used to compare with, should be against "Aguila"...and even that, somewhat different weights. The criticism of use of the word Federal in the other video wasn't because of the fact it's American Eagle - it was because until Apples-to-Apples testing is done, the distinguisher is the TYPE , not the company. Comparing light/fast/cheap range-ammo against heavy/slow/match ammo is great. But if you had used cheap Hornady, against expensive Federal match - and the match shot great - does that make Hornady junk? Of course not.
All that said - the fact you guys read & reply to comments, and even re-do videos is next-level. Hopefully any criticism by us (or for sure, me) in the comments is received as intended, and to be of benefit and just making the whole testing be the best it can, or at least better when it can. What you are doing with these rifles is super-interesting, and for me very valuable. I have next to zero attitude about Federal, one way or the other. From the testing I've done, Federal is just like everything else. Some shoots decent in some guns, and some doesn't. The more it costs, the more consistent it generally is. Outliers, too.
Think of it this way...would you compare a Pinto to a Corvette and then declare, "Fords are garbage!!"
Anymore than this way...compare a Chevette to a Mustang and then deduce, "Chevy totally stinks"
That's sort of what happened here.
Thank you.
super cool....lets give aguila and federal a second chance do a double blind between them and your premium choice
Thank you for the very informative data. I have a better idea where to spend my money.
You were duped into buy the federal and agula shotgun ammo! LoL
You guys need to break some of this Aguila and Federal American into components and see if you can find a reason for this dreadful performance. A lot of people on CZcams that have tried these brands of ammo have had similar results with no one finding a rifle that will shoot Aguila ammo accurately.
I always thought that Remington ammo was the best ,because there brass was better than Winchester brass to me
I cant believe the Aguila is that bad they make some pretty good 22WMR... wait thats Fiocchi. Nevermind.
Wilson combat 20” AR-10 6.5 CM upper. Aquila 140’s off the silhouette at 300 yards. Horrendous. Hornady whitetail, sub MOA. Bergers even better. I’ll just make the Bergers.
I'm surprised at how horrible the Federal shot. I've never had a problem with Federal Match ammo not shooting in 308.
I think federal blue box or federal fusion ammo would have been significantly better then there fmj loading but its what they had on the shelf...just do yourself a favor...avoid fmj loads when ammo testing unless you just bang rds thru AR for fun...for the money norma ammo is very good for getting rifle on paper and break in and will kill a deer at 2-300yds no problem
Boys you need bigger target paper 😅
Hornady eldx for hunting, hands down, barnes second
You’d be better off throwing rocks at game than use the federal or agalia. In Ohio most shots are under 200 yards but still at 100 yards and being this bad at two hundred yards it will be twice that. I’m thinking these two manufacturers need to go back and rework everything about these loads.
No joke. Since we can rule out the rifle and the shooter in this case, I didn't know it was even possible for ammo to be so bad that it throws 6" groups alone.
astonishing that people can't seem to see that it's totally different type of ammo used in those brands.
so Range-plinking FMJ didn't shoot as well as expensive match ammo!! Shocker!!
@@ShastaBean Short of mag-dumping into a dirt mound, 6MOA isn't even good for range plinking. I shoot at steel silhouettes out to 600yrds a lot for fun, and that ammo would be absolutely useless. Honestly, I wouldn't even know how to intentionally try to handload ammo so poorly that it shot that bad.
@@whiplash636 Your previous statement about it ruling out the rifle is not true at all - about it ruling out the rifle. Having 2 rifles of the same type actually demonstrates that those Brand/Model/Year of rifle will shoot both Aguila and Federal FMJ/TMJ quite poorly. Especially the 120 gr at the twist-rate, barrel-length, and throat (bullet-jump) they produced them with. Because of the presentation and clear bias, it's no surprise all the focus is on Federal. The Aguila really wasn't all that much better. Slightly, but still terrible. But it's heavier, so apples/oranges. The same two ammo types Fed & Aguila should be fired out of a Savage AXIS and see if they still shoot 6" or more. I bet they wouldn't. I'd bet $100 with high confidence. And I'd also suspect that if they used a T/C Compass, they'd perhaps see fairly large groups like with these rifles. But as another commenter suggested, if they pulled those Fed, AE TMJ bullets and seated them at .020 off the lands, they'd likely tighten up dramatically. Test, test, test. I've had Winchester Power Max PHP 180 gr give me a 9" group out of my T/C Compass .308. If you didn't know 6" groups were possible...it's likely a product that you haven't tested & measured enough various types with various rifles. Their results were pretty predictable imo. 3 "types" of ammo (match/hunting/plinking) and the graphs are almost exactly what a buyer would expect when they look at the price on the boxes along with the weight/tip.
Put a magnito speed on and then shoot with lab radar. There is your answer.
See if the tuner could tune the federal ammo
I dont understand why people had a issue with the test personally. It looks like you spent money did a test with factory loads and simply showed the results.
Why are people like that, it's all in fun
Aguila. Ah-Gee-La.
You are going to tell somebody with the last name "Cortina" how to pronounce Spanish?
@@StuninRub Así se pronuncia en mi provincia el pueblo de Águila. Significa águila. Las palabras y los nombres se pueden pronunciar de manera diferente. Parecían estar luchando con eso.
Love you guys but this wss too painful to watch. Mass confusion.
How in the hell does federal load ammo that freaking bad..?? A shotgun will shoot tighter groups that that at 100 yds ..lol.. freaking hilarious!!! WOW!!!!
First view😎
I double dog dare!!!everyone loves the 6.5 creed but o but my military bubbly LV's the 308 do the same test 308!Eric Cortina will understand why 308 with in 500yrds 308 is hard to beat.I double dare you to do the same test.CHICKEN!!Do it please let's shut this down ............
Or... Forgot to say .... All this testing & results does nothing.... You need an engineer to to tell you how it should shoot 😆😂😆
What?
I'm a professional shooter. Barnes door lock. Maybe anyone can be a pro chooter
Long and drawn out.
That’s what she said.