My New Water Block - Time for 14900KS Direct Die
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
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Music / Credits:
Outro:
Dylan Sitts feat. HDBeenDope - For The Record (Dylan Sitts Remix)
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Paid content in this video:
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Samples used in this video:
- i9 14900KS, Thermal Grizzly Products
Timestamps:
0:00 Intro
0:27 Determining the base values
2:16 Benchmarks & BIOS for OC
3:51 14900KS delidden
5:44 Removing the indium residue
8:22 Mycro Direct Die water cooler
10:11 Direct Die test values
11:36 OC with Direct Die
12:19 Summary/Conclusion
13:10 Outro - Věda a technologie
I always think it's a shame companies like Intel/AMD don't offer a special edition version that was never 'lidded' as it's the delidding process and the cleaning up the die that is the hassle, scary part and where most of the risk is.
You’ll never get a warranty for a delidded CPU/CPU without IHS from manufacturing. Are you fine with that?
@@Simon_Denmark I disagree, Intel's thermal management reacts super fast now if there's an issue and if it's physically damaged then yeah of course that's not going to be covered under a warranty and I'm ok with that.
fyi, Intel is offering a delidded warranty on these chips to certain companies, which again to me just says they are worried about the chips getting damaged during the delidding process more than anything else.
Roman mentions in the previous video about intel working with some SIs. About selling builds with delidded 14900ks, which will be covered under warranty.
@@Speak_Out_and_Remove_All_Doubt They’re offering that right now for their current CPU’s or do you mean 14900KS delidded for OEM’s? I know that there’s been some delidded CPU’s sold by Intel in the past right? Anyway I doubt that either of them will start selling delidded CPU’s for normal customers.
@@Simon_Denmark The warranty is only on the 14900KS and it's only for a select number of OEMs.
But what I am talking about is creating a batch of special edition CPUs that were never bonded to the IHS in the first place so that delidding is not even required. That would be easy to do, just take them off the production line before the IHS is put on.
7:06 As a Polish man i agree we are good at this.
Polska!
I was going to ask if you could use a Slovak instead.
And the labour is surprisingly cheap
7:14 .... I don't think that's legal, Roman...
Lmfao caught that too
The reason the signal integrity is better when you leave the copper block further away from the memory traces is that those traces are impedance controlled as differential microstrips, which are top-layer trace pairs where the electric fields couple to the ground plane on the layer below and, to some extent, between the two traces. The impedance is based on the trace geometry and the relative permittivity (ε_r) of the dielectric materials surrounding the traces - in this case, the fiberglass between the top copper layer and second layer, and the soldermask and air above the top copper layer. When you place metal directly over the top of the traces, you're changing the transmission line type from a microstrip to a stripline, which significantly changes the characteristic impedance of the traces in that region.
As an example, a 45Ω impedance single-ended microstrip (with a 0.1mm layer height, dielectric ε_r=4.1) suddenly becomes 24.4Ω impedance stripline when you have a copper block floating 0.1mm above it, e.g. if you press it to the board. That impedance discontinuity causes signal reflections, which will narrow the eye diagram and harm signal integrity, and the copper block also causes a significant rise in conductor losses - if the original trace had 0.5dB of conductor loss, you might see closer to 4.5dB of loss with the block pressed to the board. That loss alone may be as much as a third of the total loss budget of the DDR5 link, depending on the speed! No wonder it doesn't work. If you lift that copper block just 2mm off the board, the trace impedance jumps back to within 10% of the original and the conductor losses plummet.
Dang, I knew the tolerances were important but didn't know it could change that much, thank you for the detailed explanation!
I am not awake enough to even begin to understand this, but thanks 😂
Me too
and that's why some ppl. can run 8400+ DDR5 with no problem and some ppl. that are very experts in DDR4 fail to run even 7600MT. Things change and you need to keep up with new way to undervolt and overclock.
This is some next level comment, thank you
Why is this guy not over a million subs... I have no idea.
Because it's the "EN" channel, which he made not too long ago to upload the English versions of his videos. Before he uploaded everything to his normal channel, Der8auer, which is now used to upload the German videos exclusively (which still only has 483k subs, still too low for the quality of videos he produces tbh)
He is one of thew few "old-school" serious XOC left, actually testing the hardware with real tweaks, squeezing out everything from a system and not calling XMP profiles "tuned" settings.
Always love the videos, especially the one electron microscope video was crazy, he should have gotten millions of views.
I also love how the AIO is not marked as "watercooling" since AIOs are crap compared to even a simple custom loop.
@@marios3761 It's not the quantity of subs that counts, it's the quality. 😉
I never even notice that he had so little subs. Really just assumed he had more than a million. Kinda crazy how youtube works...
one of my favorite aswell, straight to the point and with good products
13 degrees is just insane.
yeah 400 watts too :D
@@thomasvennekens4137 i dont think this channel is trying to sell you intel. Hes just showing you the insane performance of the cooling technique.
Woo, that is very hot and power hungry sand.
Great that you're showing every step of the delid process including cleaning the die! 😊👍
I am impressed. Well done. Thanks.
This CPU should be Special Edition (water cooling required)
It pretty much is. You would be a fool to buy a KS and air cool it.
You will see a lot better temps even on an air cooler if you're going bare die, don't think water cooling would be necessary in this situation
Don't give intel any ideas next thing they'll do is branch off and make 15(1-9k) and a second run of 15(1-9w) for waterblock edition lol
@@nickshaffer7659 haha yea you never know..rolleyes. profit profit profit.
@@trixter192You would have to be a fool to buy this cpu in the first place
Roman this is the type of temp testing and research development in this industry I love!
that acrilic piece for removing the glue is amazing
This is so impressive. You are very inspiring!
Excellent result and great testing like always. Sorry we didn't get to see the nice cats this time...
Always liking videos first then proceed to watch them. Never regretted doing so. Thank you Roman for greatest tech content.
I'd love to see gaming benchmarks for this beast, overclocked and direct die
I am interested in this block, I have the EK direct die block, but since they have QC problems I'd rather just get a block that will work correctly the first time I delid a 14900ks.
9:37 really crazy to think about, when you’re on the bleeding edge, every little bit counts
Really nice, last Intel CPU I did this too was a Devil Canyon, made a massive improvement on that one, the water block looks great, but should have some soft foam pads in the corners like the old AMD Athlons had to keep things level as you install it.
what a great video derbauer keep it up mate :)
It would be nice to see a comparison of your DD block once it's available compared to the EK, Iceman Cooler and Supercool incumbents. I'd like to see the comparison include max core to core temperature deltas as well as an assessment on the repeatability of measurements over several installations, things people have struggled with when using DD blocks previously. I've personally tried all three and settled on the Supercool in my main rig, even with it making loop maintenance more challenging and requiring >200l/h flow. I never comment usually as a long time lurker, so wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for your content.
good for you to flog good products which are really needed
I hope I live to the day when Thermal Grizzly makes 420 AIOs :D
Inspiring as always 👍
When DD'ing I've now twice used a PTFE shim covering the PCB, of die thickness (minus perhaps 0.01mm), to ensure even clamping pressure and prevent pin contact issues from the PCB bowing up at the edges/corners. It seems to work well. As it happens I discovered this was a problem with the der8auer 9th gen frame, which is actually over 0.1mm thinner than the die and the entire mounting force/pressure of the cooler plate is exerted only on the die (hence people reporting POST, stability and memory bus issues). ETA >> bear in mind that with no ILM you have to ensure the required minimum total clamping pressure is exerted by the cooler, c. 40 lbs / 18 kg for LGA 115x (I imagine higher for 12/13/14th gen with the higher pin count) according to Intel. I modified the frame by cutting the centre out (which does nothing anyway, just bows up off the PCB) leaving only short 'tabs' so it holds the CPU in place when installing/uninstalling the cooler - without it, it would be easy to fumble when the CPU sticks to the cooler plate and trash the socket.
I really do wish we'd have some innovation in this area. Maybe with CPUs coming delidded by default like old CPUs, or some kind of different heat spreader.
Lot's of fun doing these things...
Didn't know about using the thermal paste to polish trick, will be trying that
Intel should just sell delidded cpus that come with a direct die frame at this point for like 30-40 usd more.Its cheaper for them to not have to give you a copper IHS and it removes the delidding risk and hassle for us while keeeping our warranty and have better temperatures.
Aye
Looks really good! And thank you for the thermalpaste polish tip! Do you have any plans to ship it with some kind of seal ring (like Sony did with the PS5) so that the liquid metal doesn't dry out? So that you don't have to repaste after 6months / 1 year.
Awesome results, I will be looking for your cooler, my 13900K is delided and direct die cooled, but it is a plexie unit, I like the looks of your better and hopefully will see even a few more C improvement, but I am already pretty low as I also use a chiller on a tank.
My stock 13900ks scores higher then his OC 14900ks, something wrong in this video.
sooom nerdy, sooo not needed, SOOO GREAT!!!
This looks promising - have 14900ks in hand - looking forward to the mycro 1700 block
Qtip silicon teflon gel onto cpu pcb get it hot with preheater then cool it down while applying more coatings then completely clean with clean qtips thermal as well as noise dampening for better response as well as efficiency
I'd love to see a video with the 14900KS cooled by the Delta Tec²!!!
What flow rate is your direct die water block going to be optimized for high/med/low? Thanks, looks good!
G'day Sheik, Makita & Roman
7:38 🤔I thought you were going to say KPx 😂😂😂😂😂
I'm using the AM5 Mycro myself, couldn't be happier! Great to see this line of product expanding!
Thanks :) Happy to hear that
Roman, did you change the PL1 & PL2, and if so, what did you set them to? And what PL1/PL2 setting do you recommend for the regular 14900k?
I kinda wish Intel would offer a Core i9 SKU that comes without an IHS from the factory. I did direct-die on my 9900k and it dramatically improved my temps, but it was such a tedious process getting my AIO to mount properly that I didn't bother doing it to the 14900k system I just built
Sold on the new Delid-Die-Mate , went to check if i can get one now but no stock in the UK😆 Looks a much much better design than the EK one i have here that i used on 13th gen and the acrylic piece is a brilliant idea 😃 How long till they are back in stock as really want to delid this new KS ....
Amazing!
you can count me in on grabbing one of those blocks im gonna compare it to ek direct die velocity 2
what about adding plastic spacers to the bottom of the direct die to keep the spacing from the motherboard correct?
Yeah for production having a big floating copper plane right there next to a bunch of high speed traces is going to be a nightmare for signal integrity. If you can net even a few mm on that one side I think it may mitigate the issue. The electric field should attenuate extremely quickly at such low potentials reducing cross talk and line capacitance.
Your English is solid, pronounced polish is for sausage and people, pronounced pall-ish is for stuff that shines. Love your videos
More like paw-lish
@Romain have u already try to remove socket and solder the CPU directly to the mainboard?(like on laptops) Will it resolve in better signal quality? Will it permit to achieve higher frequencies in clock/memory?
I wonder what kind of performance we can see with liquid metal, copper ihs, frame corrector, and the ek delta tec block 🤔
Pretty sweet tool that lasercut plexi
That is insane.
Awesome man! Can you put a list of all the items you used in the description with links if able?
Slow pump flow or block flow completely monitored temps break it in properly as well as tune the function built in ai due its job while showing proper energy to adapt to
Personally I think that if Intel was "smart" they would have always sold all the KS SKUs (starting the 9900KS or even the 8086K which is a 5 GHz out of the box edition of the 8700K) pre delidded since they are super binned chips and only enthusiast which want to direct die them should get them (the IHS should however still be in the box and sold alongisde the delidded CPU).
Those CPUs have such insane power draws that direct die is the only "smart" thing to do if you purchase one, otherwise you should have gotten the regular K.
Don't really agree with the last statement.
I cannot make a perfect comparison since I did not have 13900k, but do have currently 13900KS and had a 12900K.
What people do not realise is that mostly KS variants are just binned K version of a chip, that being said...
Running at the same let's say stock frequency they do require less voltages and if you re gonna undervolt it, you ll have better results than doing it with the K .
My is currently running on - .04 v, and on LLC3 normal behaviour... Reckon could go even lower than that.
SP prediction was 112, while with the K I never got anything higher than 95.
Temperature wise, doesn't go nuts like 12900 did.. less jumping all over the place and takes undervoltng like a champ plus has a higher potential power draw
Meme chips, excited for the new gen tho, also zen 5.
I have the EK block and I want to swap it out. I’m waiting for this but if it doesn’t drop soon I’m going to just get the Super Cool block. Hurry up!!!!! Lol
Been waiting for this as well & will also get a supercool block if this does not release soon.
6ghz all core without overheating? Awesome, well done
At 1.52v😂
@@bubbamcgee5953It's not 1.52 V. That's just what's set in BIOS. It's prob somewhere between 1.38 and 1.47 V.
94c at 370w 5.8ghz.
Thats insane! That just proves, speed doesn’t equal performance.
When you consider the 7800X3D delivers on average the same or better performance in gaming at 65-70c 95w 5.50ghz, this is what I’m getting on a full open loop.
hey, quick question bro, I have a 13900k and I just order the EK quantum Delta2 tec. I was wondering if it would make sense to not delid the CPU as it still has the Indium Solder and I was wondering if I get better temps if I leave it stock? also, I've been wondering how does the thermal grizzly conductonaut work at sub ambient with the tec coolers? does it get cold enough to make it not work?
Oh my, the flowmeter from aquacomputer is way smaller than I thought. I'm going to buy this one also, together with the quadro interface to steer my PWM fans, and my EK pump. But I'm not sure to use the DRGB option, because my case will already have an overload of ARGB. I must say the temperatures dropped significantly then your other video. But it's concerning you have to use water cooling to cool the damn thing. For regular users, this will become a problem.
in Mykro can please provide seal / gasket for Liquid Metal like Minisforum did on EM680 for added peace of mind
Maybe a package with the die mate too?
Are the holes on the direct die block far apart enough to fit 2 Koolance QD4 quick disconnects (without having to use angled fittings, swivels, etc.) instead of QD3? It's getting annoying how every block has their holes spaced so close together.
when is direct die for sell for 13th/14th gen intel ?
Hey, I've always noticed that you say that Hwinfo taking some of your CPU, but even on my little quad core CPU it barely takes any CPU usage, what is wrong with yours?
I adjust it to 500ms polling rate. Otherwise it only updates every 2 seconds which is too slow for what I want to test. If you increase the polling reate it takes more resources
How are the microfins formed on the direct die block?
It will tile adapt better due to having a range of memory timings running independently
Would it be actually worse thermal performance to have an o ring seal along the die and then a block sealing against that for true direct die water cooling?
Could you specify the bolt torque? I have a torque screwdriver and I think it would take a lot of the guesswork out of it if we had to aim for a specific value.
I only see am5 direct die in your website, is this not out yet ?
Hey Der8auer can you please clarify what you mean at 8:30? Does contact pressure effect memory frequency capabilities? I always thought once it's detected then it's okay.
I have thin washers on my delided 12900k to reduce (pressure) bending, but find it very difficult to overclock memory, I can't even do xmp when my memory kit is on my boards qvl list.
See comment made by @gsuberland. It has a lot of good info
Is it possible to preorder the 1700 block? I’m running an EK Velocity2 with direct die mod and the results are underwhelming. Still pushing 100 degrees when benchmarking.
Increased spacing off the board improving the memory signaling is probably not about heat, but about inductive coupling with the block.
Thanks :3
Is a direct die cpu block better for any cpu in general then using a normal block?
ima do my first direct die next week. just ordered your ryzen 7000 kit :D gonna be fun! idk if i should offset my waterblock too or not
May wanna wait for supercool product instead. They're about to sell direct die for AMD and they use stock ILM which helps a lot with contact.
im getting old pentium 4 netburst wibes from these new intel space heaters
Yep, the old days are coming back... Little generational improvement for much more power.
(inserts the Captain America "I understood that reference" meme)
Funny enough, the 1.525v core voltage he sets is the stock voltage for Northwood Pentium 4s.
I do miss the 1+ GHz overclocks we used to see though.
They were "only" around 200-250W, not 400W.
When are you going to release the laser cut acrylic tool for removing stuff from cpu?
Will there be a version of this block with clear plexi?
This water block is literally the last piece to my 1000d build.
Any update on when it's releasing?
If you replaced the water with a custom formulated coolant, you might get even better results. You should look into what sort of coolants are being developed.
You will have better results on Cinebench if you set the process priority to Realtime in the Windows task manager
yay
oh wow I see you used the Mycro waterblock instead of that EK one. Is that because the EK one is so irreparably broken?
They should really just make a special version where the IHS doubles as a waterblock.
No delidding, no tricky mounting/thermalcompound.
Please, could be possible to see a thermal performance comparison between your new Direct Die waterblock and the Supercool Computer 14th Gen Full Copper?. I have also the new 14900KS already delided, and im looking for the best waterblock possible. I think the overclock community will be really interested on see this comparison because, for the moment, it looks like the Supercooler option still beaing the optimus on the market. Thanks for all your videos stuff. I learn a lot with u. It will be interesting also know where to buy your new waterblock, for the moment i can´t found it on the shop. Have a nice day !!
1.52V is nuts, as are the gains from this (temp drops, clock speeds, and power draw). Nothing like direct-die!
It's not 1.52v. Remember, that's the voltage before vdroop. It's probably in the 1.40-1.47 V area.
I'm still unable to find an am5 version of this block for sale literally anywhere, does anyone know if there's gonna be more made, or if I can even get one at all?
FINALLY!!!!!!
@der8auer-en Supercoolcomputer has two direct die block for intel 14, acrylic and full copper C1100 ( what they claim). The cost for SC block & delid tool on supercool are $140 plus ~ $30 shipping fee ( DHL express), that is without any tax or hassle, front door delivery. It takes 3 days to receive in located in Asia and within a week if located in UK. I wonder how much are yours since there is 19% VAT on top on shipping from TG. I hope Roman's stuff are quite better than Supercoolcomputer and the price is cheaper, $120 for both would be great . Supercool's coldplate is quite thin so you may wanna consider that. Can't wait for some more comparison. Edit: Nvm, i don't think this is gonna fly bc no ILM, contact is gonna be big issue. You do know >8000MT, impedance is very annoying to deal with. A $50 Torque drive is far from getting it down 0.05NM precise.
Very good result. About the cinebench score, anyone noticed that we’ve lost a lot in multi core benchmark? I scored over 43k with my old 13900k with 5,7 GHz on P-Core, now 42K with 6 GHz…
Interesting
Any update on when these water blocks might release? EKWB has kept me waiting nearly 4 months on a direct die AIO pre-order. Would love to get something quality in my system.
I find it interesting that having a larger gap between the direct die block ILM and the memory traces improves the signaling enough to make a large difference. I have tried icemancooler block from aliexpress which was around 80 USD and has a thick plastic skirt and it works fine at 8200+ on apex encore even with a relatively weak IMC. I then tried using a direct die frame from them and a modified optimus foundation block with a hole dremeled for SMD capacitor clearance and it would struggle to even boot 8000 and would error really fast in ycruncher at any torque values that I tried. I have not used liquid metal with either as im using a chiller with the capability of going subzero but the best paste results I have had were PTM7950 and any really thick paste like thermalrights lineup. Kryonaut and KPX were both fairly bad for core-core delta and water-core temp deltas. I got similar temperature results to the ones in your video with 14900kf but about 5-10c worse on the hottest core due to not using liquid metal. Also that cinebench score of 42k is a bit low for 6ghz but it can be explained by lower E core clocks probably.
See comment by gsuberland
It's so frustrating that with power densities this high and dies this small, the majority of the temperature delta occurs between the bottom of the silicon and the top of the IHS. You can have the best loop in the world, but as long as we're talking ambient cooling you're always limited by getting the heat out to the water block in the first place.
It would be lovely if AMD and Intel would sell versions of these CPUs with no IHS and a silicon die thinned as much as possible (since the thermal conductivity of the silicon itself is quite poor compared to copper). They could either charge a bit more to cover the expected warranty issues from people damaging it, or simply void warranties if there's any visible cracks/damage to the cores. It's clearly possible, both because they _still_ sell mobile CPUs this way, and because both vendors used to sell bare socketed desktop CPUs back in the Pentium 3 and Athlon XP era.
Being able to place a thin layer of copper for the waterblock as close as possible to the transistors emitting the heat would do wonders to improve the situation where your processor instantly jumps 60-80c going from idle to full load (the thermal resistance you can't do anything about) and then only rises 5-10c after that (because your loop is plenty capable of dissipating the power). We could even dissipate way more, because hotter water means more efficient thermal transfer to the air but you can't normally tolerate a high water temperature as things are now because it doesn't give you sufficient headroom because you're desperately trying to keep things below throttling temperatures on the die itself.
see how cooling improved power draw without anything else?
the ihs is a bottleneck
guys on EK
lap them HARD it works, done it on 9th gen
So where can I get this waterblock
Will the AM5 mycro be available again?
BOUGHT ONE THANK YOU!!!
better than iceman?
@@TheDarkbb2 I was looking at iceman and think derbauers will be better, putting it all together today. No question more goes into manufacturing derbauers I'm sure in testing they compared theirs to icemans too
@@CarputingYT How did you get one? Everytime I check they are out of stock! Please let me know how it went. Thanks
While not directly related to this video, I can't wait for Ryzen 9000 to come out, will definitely delid it using your products!
Let's hope they don't change anything so the old 7000 series tools still work just fine...
Delidding tool instock today, any eta on the lga 1700 waterblock, Roman?
Curious to see how your DD block compares to Supercool
For best conducting properties, I use the metal part of JBWELD.
Been waiting for it where can I get one!?