Sumo Is Wrong In Powerlifting Too | Starting Strength Network Previews
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
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I do the cumo deadlift, which is where you have one leg on the inside of your arm like a coventional and one leg wayyyy outside your arm like a max width sumo. It takes a little practice but I find it's the best of both worlds.
Every time I look at Nick I think of a goomba from Mario
That’s racist!!
@@bobsaul4568 no, it's not racist
i know what you are saying and it's not, it's just another thing, relation, between Nick and Goomba
I'm sorry that racism is still bothering you so, we're all in this together. Being human transcends racism and other negativity, because we are all humans, we are humanity
Comments from the haters
@@thehightide2559/sarcasm
Ever time I see Nick I think disgusting slob
they should add a rule to the deadlift : after you lift it you need to walk it 3 inches forward. would be fun watching sumos trying to walk it and break their knees.
That sounds stupid and dangerous even for conventional.
@@alexvisan7622for real
Smartest staring strength cult member.
Mike Bridges is top 3 powerlifters of all time. Love to see Rip interview him
I sumo and conventional the same weight. I train both
0:14 _"Are we getting Comments From the Haters from the network??"_
_". . . It seems the comments are coming from inside the house!"_
_"F-k! They have breached the perimeter! Quick! Enact Armadillo Protocol! Shut down the forums! Turn off CZcams comments! Barricade the gym doors with these kettlebells!"_
_"And we thought those would never amount to anything useful!"_
Oh crap that’s funny. 😂
My new favorite starting strength video
I do the sumo Because I hurt my back my lower part of my back terribly. Is it still wrong?
It depends, but look up "strainght co. back pain." That should give you a better idea of what the conventional lift could do for you.
No
Nice coffee cup 😂
I will say that Ed Coan had a very impressive conventional (887) and sumo deadlift (901).
Ed had a semi sumo
Bad Girl Deadlift = Sumo.
Or "Squirtlift"
Fully expected there to be an ad at about the 1:30 mark.
I just started doing 5X5 recently again but had to give up. Workouts go fine but then one day I wake up and it feels like I stepped on a bunch of nails on the ball of my right foot. It usually goes away within a hour and then is pain free but when I'm squatting and deadlifting more often, always going heavy, it started sticking around for almost the entire day. The toes of my left foot also hurt but not as bad. I read that it could just be the weight bothering them or maybe it's unrelated. I squat/DL wearing just socks on a exercise mat that's on top of carpet (basement gym). I guess I could try wearing my wide toe shoes just incase it's that.
I believe this is why rip recommends getting lifting shoes. The strap provides metatarsal support which might help your situation. He also says if you aren’t 18 - early 20s you shouldn’t be doing 5x5 because you can’t recover from it. Obviously I don’t know your age.
Post a form check on their forums.
"I squat/DL wearing just socks"
Stop doing this.
Get lifting shoes.
Your foot pain is probably related to the fact that you have no arch support.
Wear lifting shoes with a metatarsal strap. Foot problem aside, let me ask you, why 5x5?
I hate watching people pull sumo. Why don’t y’all man up?
Let’s play basketball on a 7’ basket, so we can all dunk like Jordan.
So you watched the recent rxmuscle episode?
Most DL records were done with conventional stance. The analogy only makes sense, if we're counting ridiculous wide-stance, with like 2" ROM. Similar with wide-grip benching or squatting, done with 2" ROM.
Let's do it then
Wide stance squats & wide grip benches also cheating then ?
Both should only be done narrow no more than shoulder width. ??
Some coaches recommend sumo for tactical personnel and athletes specifically because it helps with hip mobility and hip strength.
I would imagine that those coaches are just making assumptions and over selling the benefits.
Sumo is pretty useless for carryover to athletics or general/applicable strength in the field.
Nothing more impressive than watching someone pull a sumo deadlift 3 inches off the floor. So impressive, so inspiring.
So do it then
@@briangentile7305 what, pull a 3 inch deadlift? What’s the point? Almost zero ROM=no gains.
Sumo deadlift is gay.
It's interesting that the IPF has addressed arching in the Bench, but not the Sumo DL. I think part of the problem is, like Rip says, since they didn't address the rule omission immediately, Sumo is overwhelmingly the go-to choice for Powerlifters. At my gym, out of around 20 powerlifters, I was probably 1 of only 2 who still does conventional.
That being said, I'd like to know Rip's take on one important issue (imo) relating to the deadlift. I'd consider myself fairly gifted for the conventional deadlift, I have very long arms, probably above average length legs and have deadlifted close to 600 weighing in around 180-185. I find that if any powerlifters are still doing conventional, the majority of them are either heavy weights or have longer arms like myself. What has the experience been of coaches who train lifters with shorter arms in the conventional deadlift? While it does annoy me a bit that lifters with shorter arms can often excel in the bench press and have a way to modify the deadlift to their benefit, would it be detrimental in some cases for them to lift conventional? I've found a VERY narrow conventional stance works for me (I don't have much of a gut), but would shorter-arm lifters generally prefer a wider stance in the conventional deadlift?
p.s. I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here, because I don't like Sumo, but the arm-length phenomenon is something I've noticed (again, excluding lifters from heavier weight classes).
This is going to rival the trap bar deadlift video in terms of hater comments.
If we could figure out how to harness the power of gym bro butthurt, we could abandon the pursuit of nuclear fusion.
Arguing with sumo pullers is like arguing with flat earthers.
New IPF rules should stipulate that being homosexual is a requirement for participation because then I would consider competing.
Rip, why are you a big advocate of the LB squat? For all intents and purposes, it's the Sumo DL of squatting, e.g. more mechanically advantageous, can be manipulated to significantly reduce the ROM, etc.
Classic Sumo cope. The ROM is already set by the rules for the squat (crease of the hip in line with the top of the knee). With Sumo you're starting from a more upright position, so the bar moves much less. That's not the case with low bar squats.
@@rafael2080 Sure thing, bud. Rip is essentially claiming that all Sumo DL's are to DL'ing, what doing a LB squat with a 2" ROM, are to squats(see link below).
The point is any lift can be bastardized to make a mockery of the lift itself. Sumo, LB squat, bench, etc. It's just popular for lifter's who prefer(that is, are stronger in) conventional DL to hate on Sumo DL.
czcams.com/video/nLVJTBZtiuw/video.html
The better question is why is sumo bad but the lay back press they allow in strength lifting okay?
The low bar squat does not have a shorter range of motion than the high bar squat. The reason why it is better is because it shifts the mass of the bar relative to the body, allowing more hip engagement, which means bringing more muscle mass to bear to move the bar.
The sumo deadlift reduces the range of motion. It brings the lockout position closer to the floor. It reduces the difficulty at the hardest portion of the movement pattern by reducing the moment arm.
If you want an analogy involving squat, it would be:
Standard deadlift : sumo deadlift :: LB squat : LB squat 6 inches above parallel
Squatting to 6 inches above parallel reduces the range of motion, and it reduces the difficulty at the hardest portion of the movement pattern (being at parallel) by reducing the moment arm.
@@SomethingWylde The lay back in the press doesn't reduce the range of motion of the bar. It must still travel from the start position to lockout.
Also, if you lay back so as to cause the bar to drop, you get redlighted.
WOW! I love hearing Rip criticize podcasters for being capitalists! There, is still hope for him.
Well but I have short ass arms, I can bench 225 for reps at 155 lbs bodyweight but my arms are short af thus its difficult for me to pull conventional, plus if it's cheating why didn't most power lifters pull sumo, they arch like crazy on the bench, why not pull some if it's way easier ?
We're getting to a point where most powerlifters do pull sumo. In many weight classes that is already the case.
They must all have the unique proportions sumo lovers say they have.
Instead of all this "It suits my proportions" equivocation why not say "I pull sumo, mind your own business" or, better yet, own it with
"Yeah, I deadlift more than you. You know why? BECAUSE I CHEAT, THAT'S RIGHT, EVERYBODY KNOWS I PULL SUMO, BITCHES!"
The point wasn't about "what works best for each lifter". The point was "many lifters can use sumo to get an advantage". Thus it skews the evenness of the competition. The rules should have simply been made to specify one stance. Then you're gonna say something like "but then people with body shape for conventional get the advantage". And that's how ALL sports work, but each sport is supposed to have specific rules not loose ones.
The “strict” press that SS teaches😂
Classic press
@@benzmane7564 "Classic" Press yeah 😂
Power lifters not bright lol
I train both my best conventional is about 50lbs less than my best sumo, doing my first strengthlifting meet in November. I can understand how some can look at Danny grigsby and others and say that’s questionable but than again how many people can move that weight period?.
It's not about what other people can or can't do. Just change the rules so that everyone has to pull conventional. Done. Problem solved.
@@1neomonkey Why not change the rules so everyone has to pull sumo? That way everyone gets to pull more weight.
@@somuchfortalent Why not change the rules so everyone can rack pull from an inch below lockout?
The ROM in the standard deadlift is arbitrary because the weight plates are sized arbitrarily. You could even argue that deadlifting with 25 lbs or even 10 lbs plates would be the "real deadlift" because you get full range of motion. Similarly, the movement pattern in the standard deadlift is one of several ways to get the bar off the ground. There is nothing inherently right about that movement pattern. Not that I'm surprised by Rip's comments on this though, as usual he is the most dogmatic and narrow minded person in the lifting community.
Congrats. This will probably be on comments from the haytors
Rip is right and you're wrong.
@@kobemop Another striking argument from a loyal member of the Rippetoe sect.
They’re all ~17.5”, 450mm. Not arbitrary. And you comparing my 400lb conventional to your 500lb sumo is like me saying my bench is xx and you saying you can eat a 50oz steak in 12 min… they’re just not the same. The goal of strength training is strength. I argue you incorporate more practical pulling groups with conv. I don’t care what I can lift while doing a split.
@@astang1072 You missed my point. The 450 mm size is arbitrary. One could just as easily have made plates at a 350 mm size or 250 mm etc. Then the ROM would have been greater. Imagine if this was the case when people started deadlifting. Then when the 450 mm plates came along people would have called that cheating because it's not full ROM. There is nothing inherently better about a "standard deadlift" with a "standard ROM". It's just tradition, that's what it is.
I love when people say it's not easier it just works different muscles. Yea, it's more quad and less low back. The quads are giant and erectors are tiny in comparison so of course it's going to be easier.
Sumo?? You mean the _cheating_ deadlift?
If it was, everyone would use it in competition.
@@braticuss- OR maybe the lifters who pull conventional actually care about strength and proper form.
@@1neomonkey or maybe they can't lift 🤣
The rules of the sport allow it🤷♂️
@@1neomonkey God, how naïve can you be? In competition, all that matters is winning....yet only 50% of lifters use sumo in comp. However, 100% of people arch their back to extreme degrees in comp. Which is not ideal form (anatomical arch is), to get the least amount of travel as possible. It's about winning. You're clearly a newbie that's been brain washed by him. He deals with regular people that want to get strong. He doesn't train pros for a reason...his system doesn't work for advanced athletes. It's for average beginners.
Lol, GAEe
This dude ever not negative?
He didnt have deep hipped men on his mind
@@stewartlittle5109😂😂😂
Please discuss how hay sumo deadlift is. 🤣🤣🤣
so, me (6'6, long torso and relatively short arms), pulling hybrid ('cause i'm also 275lb and my gut, when bracing, pushes against tights and fucks up my lower back when conventional) to 3ft height - is not A DEADLIFT, but for some short dude\gal, pulling it to 1'7 height conventional - is?
i used to shit on sumo too, but at the end of a day, it's that simple - if you think sumo is easier - pull sumo and set WR. prove it.
one thing i should agree with - sumo should be another deadlift category.
Only Sumo is at a Basho
It's also not a deadlift. Not full effort. Dynamic effort it's great for.
Sumo = a rack pull from the floor. Gay.
When I pull sumo, or glute bridge, or ATG squat, and some asshole with hotdog legs comes up and give me shit for it, I react too. Now I agree that these people that sumo with whippy bars and bumper plates barefoot without a lockout are doing bullshit lifts, sumo is fantastic for getting in a ton of deadlifts without burying you.
Keep doing you man, ignore the haters and elitists, I pull conventionl and I swear it doesn't bother me in the slightest when I see people pulling sumo. I don't get why people always got a judgemental problem to get emotional over somone doing their own thing that isn't even bothering anyone. Really quite ridiculous.
Save your back, there's always other exercises to hit the posterior chain, the Deadlift isn't the end all be all.
Stay strong, and age like fine wine my friend! 💪
@@Sharkenite Thanks brah. And the funny thing is, I pull more weight conventional.
If you actually use your lower back while doing sumo, then sure. But the people completely upright like a clown, then hell no.
1:15 lol rip watches ads on youtube... boomers gonna boom
LOL
So deadlifting Sumo is corrupting the lift... Kind of like a guy leaning way back doing an overhead press and turning it into a standing bench press? Come on now, got to be consistent in your critique
Completely agree. Iv'e seen some guy on this channel turning the overhead press into a incline bench press and got white lights all the way.
Benching standing up is harder than benching on the bench. So what’s the problem?
With 405.
It's a different lift. However, I don't think it corrupts the lift. Chase's 405 is incredible, even with the back tilt. And no, it's not a standing bench press.
press was dropped from Olympics because it was butchered to the point of being high incline standing bench press (other reasons aside).
Now SS community has taken the press technique to that same level and they are okay with it because it allows more weights and is still passed under the official rules. But sumo is cheating despite it also passes under the rules. Haha.
arent your gyms like 300 dollars a month? maybe thats why you dont have ads lol.
Why TF would you read this exact comment with its 1990’s humor? Not right.
Rip is just mad because deep down inside he knows he never could cut it as a legit powerlifting. Yeah I said it so f$@cking deal with it haters!!!
If that was true, everyone would use it in comp. Only about 50% use it in comp. Also, it's great if you have lower back issues. How many use an arch when bench pressing unless comp... 100%.
Bro, please stop pulling sumo.
You're a gay.
@@everydaywarriors 🤣🤣🤣🤣
@@everydaywarriors Been lifting for 25 years, 10 of those at the pro level. All the pros use both in training, and 50% in comp. Please stop being a simp and following every little thing Rip says. I get that you're new and inexperienced, but expand your horizons and educate yourself a bit more.
@@braticuss Stop pulling sumo. It doesn't count. We're all worried about you.
Sumo is a Japanese sport, though with some non-Japanese adherents (it's also a religious ritual, as entertainment for the gods and spirits of Shinto). In the sport, very large men fight on a raised platform. Sumo has absolutely nothing to do with powerlifting. Don't know how that confusion began.
It's pretty obvious why the sumo lift is called the "sumo" lift. Are you really mystified by this? Go watch a sumo match.
You pay taxes. You also hate taxes. You can pay and be a hater.
You can, but I'm not sure Starting Strength is mandatory yet, not even in Dallas.
Geeze that just makes me wanna compete as a transgender more and more.🤣
If a wider stance really was easier you would see it a lot more.
If a sumo deadlift isn't a deadlift, is a low bar squat a squat? The low bar squat decreases ROM and people are putting the bar farther down their backs to make the lift easier. There are rules about bench press width, but none for back arch. Powerlifting is a mess and always has been. Peanuts West and the guys who created the sport did all sorts of "cheating" to make the lifts easier. Geared powerlifting, for example, has been around for a long time, but the raw lifters of today pretend that their methods are "pure" powerlifting.
So your legs bend less when the bar is higher? I am not so sure I understand the ROM difference. The bar starts lower and goes lower....I think you are confusing stance width with bar placement.
@@oggsmash9989 Yes, a lower bar position generally requires a wider stance. I didn't write my previous post clearly.
@@HeathWatts IME it does not really require a wider stance, but it does allow for a wider stance so the person squatting can bend at the waist without bending their spine. High bar can also be done with a wider stance. There is very little difference in ROM, but you can not really bend at the waist with high bar or you will bend your spine...high bar is also MUCH easier for certain body types in that they can stand straight up and get into a squat position loaded. The lift is "easier" because the bar can be placed over mid foot without all sorts of balance and bending issues....not to take away anything or make it "easier" in the sense of removing load and certainly not in the sense of removing athletic development.
The issue I have with a Sumo deadlift is it is more of a wide stance leg press sort of exercise and removes a great deal of the lower back activation (in a way it is easier for a similar reason you can do it without bending at the waist much or at all with certain body types) and overall muscle activation. If you compete...well do as you must. If you are doing a deadlift for the actual development of musculature and athletic performance....the sumo is a waste of time and effort and you would be better off IMO of not doing it at all and spend the time you are not deadlifting in doing some useful assistance exercises for your other movements. I see LOTS of people doing Sumo in the gym and its always for the same reason...they can move more weight (if the more weight meant more development and muscular involvement I would be on board...however it does not) so in those cases it is purely massaging of egos and not to be better.
i would add that regarding attempting to compare low bar squat and the sumo deadlift fails in this regard. I can make a good case for a more advanced lifter doing some high bar squats (activate the quadriceps a good deal more IME) as a great variation of stimulus compared to a low bar squat. I can make zero case for doing a Sumo deadlift along those same line.
There are now rules about arch via the elbow rule: “ The lifter must lower the bar to the chest or abdominal area whereby the underside of the elbow joint is level with (or below) the top of the shoulder joint”. Too big an arch and that becomes impossible
Oh you mean the dumbo leglift? Yeah i do those..
Every physical therapist, ergonomist, biomechanistic, etc: "Lift with a wide stance, load close to the body, knees bent, and neutral spine."
PL purist's: "it's not a DL, bro, because...reasons."
Seriously, though; a sumo DL can be manipulated to the point where it's making a mockery of the lift, just the same as a wide-grip bench press or LB squat can. If it's done within reason, it's a perfectly fine lift. And there's no universe it doesn't constitute a DL. It's literally pulling a weight from floor to waist, done by extending at the knees and hips. It's only by a matter of convention that it would ever not be considered a DL.
But that wouldn’t happen a way to please everyone because there’s dozens of federations. But also what about Strongman and the way that sport always to cheat the deadlift by hitching and a lot of the overhead pressing doesn’t look strict in strongman but you made a great point with the no universal rules for a lift.
Lol, and PTs are the authority here? Bro, stop pulling sumo.
Nonsense. In a conventional deadlift you have no other way to pull the weight off the floor other than bending over with your back and lifting it.
On the other hand with sumo plenty of lifters can do a work around and stay completely upright and not involve the lower back whatsoever. That's NOT a Deadlift.
@@1neomonkey Deadlift refers to the dead weight in the starting position being lifted off the floor. There's no requirement for a herniated disc.
Sumos are so damn faggy that it makes Ru Paul look like Don Frye. The reason the faggy powerlifting federations haven’t removed it is because it helps women. Women have stronger legs than backs and sumo allows women to use their leg strength. It also favors short women who can lengthen their ROM. Any man, including yourself, that pulls sumo takes it in the butt. Sorry to say
Sumo deadlift not a lift and totally gay.
I stopped paying attention to powerlifting (or, as I call it, powerbottoming) when I saw how woke the federations were. Sumo is simply one symptom of a greater disease which is the unfathomably gayness of powerbottoming
Freud would have a field day with you huh
Starting Strength is wrong on this. If you pick up a box, anything, from the floor, you automatically use sumo. Hands inside the legs.
That is the natural movement pattern. And it goes especially well paired with the low bar squat (as low bar targets posterier chain).
And im saying this as someone who knows Starting Strength is almost always right.
I use one of those grabber claws to pick stuff up off the floor, also great for reaching the Swiss Rolls when the old lady hides 'em at the back of the pantry
I rarely see a person spread their legs apart as far as possible like a sumo lifter to pick up an object from the floor. Most of the time it looks more like a conventional deadlift
@@AndrewM-iv8qx are the hands inside or outside the knees?
@@edgarfriendly5321 1. That depends on the shape of the object.
2. The hands being being inside or outside the knees isn’t the big problem with sumo, the ultra wide leg stance is. If your hands are required to be outside your knees then the ultra wide stance is impossible.
@@AndrewM-iv8qx I'm not arguing with your myopic details.
The answer is 99% of the time inside.
Old man yells at clouds. Nobody cares.
Praise from Caesar.
You cared enough to post a comment.
Not sure that "noticing a thing" is the same as caring@@dafunkmonster
@@BuJammy Noticing and acting on it is caring. Not sure you have brainpower to deduce that.
People pulling sumo in competition usually have athletic looking bodies with strong muscular legs. People pulling conventional in competition usually have fucked up builds with weird short torsos and long legs, or they're fat. Sumo is how you actually pick up most objects in real life, and for most people without strange body proportions conventional is just turning the low back into a limiting factor for no fucking reason. Sumo also pairs well with low bar squatting by using the quads more, instead of just choosing the posterior chain dominant form for both squats and deads. But hey, the range of motion is less, and you don't want an old guy in Texas to think you're gay, so it's a bad lift
Yeah because when I pick something heavy up off the floor, I do a spilt… Makes sense.
@@skidaddler6293 Look at the thumbnail of Rip's "How to pick stuff up" Video, and tell me where Chase's hands are in relation to his legs
Bro, seek Jesus and stop pulling sumo. Both will improve your life.
The Deadlift is primarily a lower back exercise. That's the whole point!
"People pulling conventional in competition usually have fucked up builds with weird short torsos and long legs, or they're fat"
so mark?
why is mark so bothered by people lifting efficiently?
THE TITTY MUG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OK, you HAVE to help me buy one of those!