The Spray Skirt Problem - Fixed!
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2022
- After lots of great suggestions from viewers, and a conversation with Delta Kayaks, I sort of stumbled onto a fix. It was something that was noticed/suggested by a viewer. On a lark I added one little thing to my tests.
This seems to be a problem with the slippery nature of thermoformed plastic. I also noticed that when I was paddling in Alaska I noticed how rough the underside of the cockpit coaming (on a fiberglass boat) is. That plays into it.
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I really like that you show your mistakes too. 👍 Mistakes teaches, plus it makes you… more human, not some top pro with unbeliavable superpowers.
Yeah, my only super power is I can cook really good eggs. But I will say, if you want to improve your skills, runs a CZcams channel where you can see exactly what you are doing, AND everyone gets to comment on it.
So glad that you got your spray skirt fixed!!!!
SO. AM. I. Thanks!
Great video! Now we have a couple of ways to address skirt issues. Thanks for testing out the low skirt position with a burp idea.
Thanks for watching and for the coffee!
Brett, glad the problem is solved! Great stuff!
Quick top tip on your roll. I noticed that the kayak is working against you on the finish. I see this a lot in the rolling classes I have taught. Try putting more pressure on the off water (your left) foot rest, almost like you are pushing down the clutch in a car. Drive the on-water knee up simultaneously to get the boat on it's bottom sooner in the roll progression. I find that the foot pressure help alleviate the dreaded head lift because you can't engage your torso to lift your head at the same time as pushing forward on the footrest. Also by initiating the "hip flick" (terrible term because only belly dancers can actually flick their hips. I use the term Load/Drive) earlier in the progression, the tendency to over rotate the paddle on the sweep will be lessened and stop the blade from diving.
Thanks Joey, Yeah, my roll used to be much better, but I let it slide. Ill try this. thanks. Where do you teach?
@@AdventureOtaku , everywhere from Maine to South Florida. I am usually a featured or guest Instructor. I am located right outside of Richmond and always looking for new places to paddle.
I’m in Norfolk. Email me I may want to do a rolling lesson BrettATadventureotaku.com
Glad you fixed it. The burping is nice to know as I am starting to learn to roll.
so am I man! I am still going to do the aqua seal for a little added bite. Glad you are continuing to build skills...
PolyEthylene kayak cockpit rims can be slippery - I've had issues in the past with PE whitewater kayaks keeping the neoprene sprayskirts on when rolling. It doesn't surprise me that the thermoformed kayaks with the molded-in cockpit rims are even slipperier.
The solution I'd heard of and then used when the issue of keeping sprayskirts from blowing off first appeared for me in the late '80s was using contact cement on the cockpit rim to make it less slippery. I still use it today on some PE kayaks. Use 100-grit sandpaper on the outer 180° curve of the rim and the underneath side to knock off the gloss and provide a little 'tooth' for the cement to adhere to, then paint on a layer of contact cement and *let it cure*. The point is to make the rim less slippery and not glue the skirt to the rim (while that would work, it seems a little extreme...). This has always worked for me. I have always used the flammable solvent-type cement though the water-based may work too (I've not tried it). Yes, there is a visible coating on the rim but that will be hidden by the skirt when paddling. If one doesn't like it, the cement can be rubbed off by hand; if it solves the problem, it will need touchup coats periodically on wear spots.
Things that help keep the skirt on:
- As you found, keeping the tunnel down (with or without burping) so it doesn't tug the side of the skirt off during an extreme side lean for rolling or during bracing;
- Getting the skirt good and wet (top and bottom) before putting it on self and kayak makes it stretchier and less slippery on the cockpit rim;
- Coating the underside of the sprayskirt with a liquid latex, neoprene or rubbery polyurethane coating where it contacts the cockpit rim will make it less slippery. As with the contact cement, make sure it is well-cured before using the skirt;
- Pre-stretch the sprayskirt by putting it on the cockpit rim and leaving it there for a week or two; this helps form the skirt into the actual proportions of the cockpit rim.
Sprayskirts that stay on well and/or are tight (don't sag) are often harder to put on the cockpit rim. I use and teach a modified technique similar to the one mentioned in the previous video:
- After putting on the skirt and sitting in the kayak, nestle the bungee into the back of the cockpit rim and around to one's side on each side by sliding both hands along the bungee;
- While keeping one's hands on the bungee, lean forward while pulling some tension on the bungee to better nestle it into the cockpit rim recess and keep it there;
- Now, while leaning forward and using both hands on the bungee to keep a bit of tension, slide both hands along the bungee to near the nose of the cockpit rim and front of the skirt. Once there, grip the bungy firmly, thrust ones hands and forearms forward to drop the front of the skirt over the nose of the cockpit rim and nestle it into place. This is best done in a more-or-less continuous motion with one's elbows by one's waist (a reverse-rowing motion). The sides of the skirt likely are not in place under the the cockpit rim yet, but the skirt should stay in place. Make sure the front release loop is on the *outside* of the kayak!
- Finally, snap each side of the skirt bungee into place, one side at a time. Use both hands on the "worst" side first, with one hand to keep the front from squirming off and the other to snap the side into place;
- Test the sprayskirt's secureness by leaning far forward, back and side-to-side to see if the tunnel is positioned properly to not tug the sprayskirt off the rim while paddling, bracing or rolling.
Sprayskirts that stay on well and/or are tight (don't sag) are often harder to remove from the cockpit rim. Using the skirt's grab loop habitually to remove the skirt can lead to torn neoprene at the loop or other damage. The loop can also be hard to find when upside-down and an EVA seems prudent. (EVA = Extra Vehicular Activity - for a spaceship, this is a space walk; for a kayak, this is a swim!) Is the grabloop tucked warm and dry inside the boat? Safe on the beach? On vacation? Who knows - we just can't find it!!! It's good to know how to remove the skirt without using the grabloop. The thing *not* to do is to try to grab the front of the skirt where it is stretched the tightest; success is unlikely, especially with cold fingers. Instead, grab the skirt at the cockpit rim on one side or the other about halfway between the front and the tunnel around you, using one or both hands. This area is not stretched very tight and the wide area of the skirt in front of you yields easily for grabbing. Now just tug the skirt side up and off the rim easily - the whole skirt edge releases from the cockpit rim allowing one to somersault out of the kayak and bob to the surface. Some whitewater sprayskirts actually have a knee-strap across the top of the skirt so lifting a knee in a keyhole cockpit will pop the skirt hands-free. This can be very useful in a nasty pinning situation where one can't reach the cockpit rim for a release or is using both hands for critical life-preserving support.
While it may sound a bit silly, practicing putting a challenging skirt on the kayak while sitting in it is something to be practiced until it becomes second nature. It can take some time to learn how to this for a specific cockpit and skirt combination, and there won't always be someone else nearby to assist. Plus, things are more difficult when one is cold, tired and/or rushed (think beach launch with waves).
Finally, if one would like to keep both hands free for paddling/bracing while pumping out the kayak (with the skirt on to boot), rigging a 500gph (gallons per hour) rule pump with a battery and switch system is quite nice. Good instructions for this can be found here: gnarlydognews.blogspot.com/2009/04/shop-electric-bilge-pump-in-kayak.html Poke around a bit there for other posts with more pump system details (including a solar battery charge system for expedition use) and other useful sea kayak tech and travel info. While Gnarlydog himself has retired from sea kayaking/kayak-sailing and moved onto other things, he is a thoughtful and innovative designer, problem solver and videographer/photographer. I am very glad he has left his sea kayaking website online as a resource. Thank you Damiano Visocnik!
Okay! You win the award for the longest comment in the history of my channel! Most of this I knew - I’m not new to paddling! The manufacturer recommends using aqua seal around the rim, very similar to what you suggested. Thanks for all the details!
@@AdventureOtaku Sorry - I can run a bit long. And this was mainly meant for others as a useful extension to your fine video. I didn't mean to convey the impression that this was intended for your edification. 🙁
Starting to re-watch your videos on stuff like spray skirts, getting in/out without tipping, etc, that weren't as relevant to me as a SOT kayaker but now that I've got my Sealution II I'm sure I'm going to be wiping out a lot until I get used to it. I just ordered a spray skirt from REI, that and my float bags should be here within a week, so hoping to get it out for a maiden voyage shortly thereafter. I've got a lot to learn before then. The idea of rolling over in a spray skirt makes me nervous right now, but I'm sure I'll get the hang of it.
Just make sure the handle is on the outside… super easy. If you have working hatch covers you don’t need the float bags. Hatches will leak a little but you won’t sink
@@AdventureOtaku neoprene seals on the hatch covers seem suspect, and I'm not even sure the bulkheads are water tight anymore either, so float bags seems like an inexpensive necessity. I am going to spray a little water in the front and rear hatches this week to see if it leaks past the bulkheads.
@kayak_homie exactly right. Fill em up. When I suspect I have a leak I’ll prop the bow up and fill it with water, then the other way around for the stern.
Glad the issue is finally solved! So what exactly was the fix you used? Burping alone, or did you use the bike tube as well?
I never used the bike tube. Burping alone did it. And I was glad because the bike tube would have been really ugly, and I didn't show this, but getting the skirt on OVER the bike tube was really hard.
On the topic of spray skirts, newer paddler here in the Northeast located right in the MA/NH border and looking to do a lot more paddling, kayak camping trip planned for lake Umbagog in NH in September and taking some classes soon for rescue techniques, just looking for some advice on what skirt material would be best for touring on lakes, rivers, and some easy coastal paddling, but also with the intent to learn rescue and rolling techniques soon. On a Wilderness Systems Tsunami 145 currently. Can't find much advice on which skirts are best to learn rolls on, would a nylon touring style skirt stay on just as well as a neoprene etc?
Great question, the tsunami 145 is a great boat. Ive paddled it a bunch. So the answer is, there is no one answer. The nylon skirts that are pretty common for touring aren’t as waterproof, and can collect water…but in general they are fine, and with most boats will hold on well enough to learn to roll… but you will get some water down the tunnel, and such. The neoprene skirt I wear is really a whitewater skirt, and is VERY tight. Can be hard to get on. Has a tight deck, so it doesn’t collect a lot of water. Everything is a trade off. I would start with a relatively inexpensive nylon skirt. And then try friends skirts and see what others are using. I am a big fan of
“Don’t spend a lot of money on your first round of gear.” While you are figuring out what you really want. then on round two, spend some money. Get high quality, that will last a long time and perform really well. Keep round 1 gear as your loaner gear for a friend who needs something.
Thank you sir, I do also have a Boreal Designs fiberglass boat, which came with a nylon skirt, as well as my wifes Tsunami came with a Seals nylon blend skirt. Both are great at going on and keeping us dry, just wasn't sure if one way or another was "better" for more advanced techniques and progression. Keep up the awesome work with the channel, thanks again for the help.
Boreal designs make great boats! Thanks for stopping by!
I found I had to keep my skirt low too when I took a rolling class. This is because when the skirt is high, there is no extra fabric down at deck level so as soon as you move your torso you just pull it off the cockpit combing. That’s on a P&H plastic boat, with a Seals neoprene skirt. I tried a lighter nylon Seals skirt but because they have no stretch at all it always comes off during a roll. I live very near the Delta factory and was thinking on getting a Delta, but I’m now hesitant after watching your video on this spray skirt issue. I think I’m going to go look at them again anyway and see if the flange is any different than in your video. It looks very rounded like a plastic boat but also very shallow, like it’s barely there. That’s a real drag to have an issue like that, and then they tell you to use their skirt and it doesn’t make any difference.
Well, the Delta is still a great boat. and the aqua seal seems to have fixed it for now - though I may have to reapply it this summer. I tried going lower with the skirt, in one of the earlier videos and it helped, but didn't solve the problem completely.
Glad you got it fixed. I see in your comments that you're going to still do the aquaseal. That's probably a good idea just in case this was just a temperature dependent fix. The silicone grippers do hold better in hot weather. Also see you had a hard time getting the skirt on with the tube. It does make it hard to get it on and to get it off. It is mostly used to stop an implosion of the skirt but it can help with poorly fitting skirts. There's no letting the skirt slip into place with the tube on. And I definitely agree it's an ugly fix but a new boat is even uglier on your wallet lol. With some of the ways the WW guys paint their boats though, the tube is an improvement.
Yeah, I think the tube would have worked. I probably should have tried it just for the heck of it…. Thanks for the advice though. I still have the tube it may end up being used anyway!
@@AdventureOtaku You're welcome. Hopefully the burping and some aquaseal keep working. Since you already trimmed the tube you can always hold on to it for a "just in case" scenario.
Was burping the final fix? Did you have to use the aqua seal or the inter tube? The reason I ask is I have the delta 16 (new style) like your 17. I want to get into rolling and was going to purchase the “Seals shocker” spray skirt it’s a neoprene skirt similar to yours. I can’t afford multiple skirts and want to get it right the first time. Thanks for all you do. I’ve watch most of your video’s multiple times.
Thanks for watching! Just sent you an email!
Just read you’re email, thanks! and I’ll keep you posted!
Excellent! Good luck
It may be that the edge of your skirt is too wide?
I don't have that problem and my neoprene has a shorter edge.
It worked fine on my last delta which had a much thicker coaming. I also tried the Delta skirt, which was no better.
😁🍾 *burp* You da MAN!
I try!
What don’t you like about the new Delta?
Im gonna do a long term test video.... I think most of the things I don't like are pretty specific to me, and my use cases. But a video is coming....
@@AdventureOtaku that would be great. I’d love to hear them as Delta is on my short list
I’m actually editing it now. It’ll go live in a couple weeks (I have a small backlog!)
The UK is not considered tropical weather however it was many many years ago and I even found shark's teeth meaning they like warmer water
So why was it tropical here and then all of a sudden not that wasn't global warming from chemicals coming from our factories
Because slowly over time, we see completely normal changes in climate. What we are seeing now is neither slow, or normal. And the data is incredibly clear.
Not all sharks are tropical. Great Whites are found off the coast of Nova Scotia and the Gulf of St Lawrence.
Could care less of your perspective on climate change...could care more on your knowledge of Kayaking.
Good tips and things I as a beginner learned...the ear/nose plugs...and your experience with the skirts...good video...Thank you...
I think you mean “I couldn’t care less….” I could care less means you do care, a least a little….. Maybe I am wrong but thanks for watching regardless Brad. Not everyone is going to agree with everything I say or do, and that’s fine. When I see something I don’t like, like litter, or erosion, or water so hot its killing fish, Im gonna talk about it. If that is problematic for you, I am sorry.
@@AdventureOtaku I do agree with you on the current Climate change it is obvious..
Im new at Kayaking and love being one with mother earth from a completely peaceful and different point of view when in a Kayak. I'm just eager to learn from you and others that possess way more knowledge and pointers than me.
No offense intended. Thank you.
No, it wasn’t clear that you agreed with me, but part of it could also be that I am used to getting negative responses when I mention things like that, so it is a little bit my fault. No offense taken, thanks for watching.
FYI. If you check accurate scientific data, you will find that we are still cooler than it was during the Roman epoch. Then in the mid 500's AD there was a series of volcanic blasts which altered the weather, triggering the dark ages and the plague. A series of other subsequent major eruptions slowed the temperature recovery. It's the absence of volcanism that allows these warm epochs and not pollution, since the gasses volcanos expel are the same as those coming from cars and industry, only volcanoes shoot it much higher into the atmosphere and greater volumes. i.e. The year without a summer in 1816 is a must study if you want to know about the true effects of vulcanism and climate.
Please comment with a link that shows accurate scientific data of what your claiming. Because I can’t find any. What I can find from reputable sources says that much like the little ice age, the effects were very localized, and not global and consistent like we are seeing now.
@@AdventureOtaku Much of the data has been removed from the internet, but if you want, I can email you some links and data charts.
Yeah. Feel free.
If its legal for people to boat without wearing a vest, you shouldn't have a problem with it at all!
I have a problem with it, because even though it is legal to not wear a PFD, it’s stupid. It’s lack of perceived risk, based on no real experience. The vast majority of people who die paddling do so without a PFD, on benign days in good weather. Check out the US coast guard stats on injuries related to boating.
Please don’t talk politics on your channel
So there are 3 things here… 1) I wasn’t talking politics, I was talking science. I work outdoors, on a daily basis I see evidence of climate change. In Alaska I see evidence of climate change. I read the scientific papers - which are clear and their predictions were less and slower than what we are seeing. If you think the evidence of climate change (which the gas and oil companies knew about in the 1960’s) isn’t real… then like I said in the video, I don’t know what to tell you. And 3) You said it. “Your channel.” This is MY channel. If you don’t like the content, don’t watch.