Are "Extra Deck" Mechanics Healthy? | Game Design
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- čas přidán 23. 07. 2024
- This month, we're taking a look at "extra deck" mechanics and whether or not they're healthy as a design element. Yu-Gi-Oh! may be my favorite TCG, but I can admit that a lot of the game's most overpowered cards come from the extra deck, and we've seen similar issues in other TCGs that have implemented similar ideas. But is this more of an issue of implementation or individual cards, or are "always accessible cards" just never healthy?
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I think one of the things that makes the YGO extra deck so crazy is that when the main deck is your primary component for summoning extra deck monsters, then extra deck monsters that retrieve more of your main deck resources have a LOT more value, especially as main deck starters and enablers become more and more reliable. I get the appeal of building a deck around one card and making use of its effects as best as possible especially with MTG Commander where you only have singles and lands to work with that really leave it to chance, but with YGO sometimes it feels like the main deck can be easily shoehorned into just serving the extra deck and nothing else.
I prefer them more as a toolbox of smaller flex options responding to certain situations that give you trouble (though I can see how that would be obnoxious, given all the old complaints I've heard about the Rank 4 Toolbox), and maybe your main win condition(s) (that can be your "partner") can be among them, but having them as pieces with which you can climb up with progressively tougher and more powerful win conditions is still a valid and fun use of them. It only becomes an issue IMO when it's easy to bring out several of those big win conditions at once.
I think where the extra deck tends to be healthiest is when extra deck cards are responses, instead of win conditions, or when they have some setup required for them to work.
Quests in Hearthstone, are an interesting way of implementing extra decks that wasn't brought up as well.
That's definitely a fair way to look at it. Cards like Knightmare Phoenix in Yu-Gi-Oh! aren't crazy strong, just effective and responsive. I think many of the extra deck payoffs going first are *intended* to take some doing to get to, they just suffer from missed interactions as more cards get introduced to the playable pool.
I hadn't heard of Quests since I don't play Hearthstone, but I'll have to look into it!
@@Draw5Move5 What if: the extra deck was in the main deck, and if you happen to draw a extra deck card it gets put into the extra deck zone and you draw an additional card because it was not a regular card you draw, how will that work?
Also how about a card game with 50-100 for a deck and you draw 6 cards, but you add an additional card from your deck to your hand of you choice, how will this math work?
I’d say one of my biggest issues with Yugioh’s extra deck mechanics right now are Link-1 Monsters. The ability to go into an extra deck play without losing any card advantage is really strong and bypasses the entire cost of going into an extra deck monster to begin with, the fact that you’re losing more than 1 monster to get 1 monster on the board
It also depends on the effect of said link 1 and its interactions with its deck or other decks.
For example, in duel links, we got iblee to support mekks.
In response to that people are running balelynx and link disciple.
Honestly I don't see this as an issue. The reason you're supposed to lose card advantage to summon an extra deck monster is because how strong it is makes it worth doing so.
Link 1s tend to be utility cards, so 1 card to make it is fine
It depends on what they do or if they essentually lock you into playing one specific deck with either summon conditions are hard locks
link 1's are not really that strong tho. they just give you some utility like a card that stops an attack or lets you tribute it to search 1 card.
Most link 1's are either in archetypes centered around link 1's (like Sunav or Sky Striker) or given to incredibly mediocre archetypes because a link 1 with a good effect is stupidly strong.
“Giving access to control AND combo”
The adventure Eldlich decks are basically the second coming of this 😭
I'm not a Yu-Gi-Oh player anymore, but I always love mechanics that let you have your expressed aspects you know you can pull from. Commanders or Signature starters, vanguards, extra deck, I adore these ideas.
I love the idea of an extra deck mechanic, just... yeah I can see needing to tune it down. Yu-Gi-Oh had really cool ways to use the extra deck, but I personally don't like the lengthy Turns with a billion special summons. Links kinda helped push this down a bit once upon a time, but wow I'd love a fresh take on this.
It's all about good balancing, like you said. Old Yu-Gi-Oh fusion monsters were not nearly strong enough to see any play for the three card main deck investment they required. Nowadays you can Link 1 into crazy combos with requirements like "an Effect monster" or other super loose restrictions. I love the example of Gagaga Cowboy because other than simply requiring specific named cards or cards within a named archetype, having a highly situational effect but more generic requirement is a great way to balance that card. Extra Decks are inherently great for all the reasons you said, but they are annoying because of all the awful cards printed. It's a balancing problem, not a mechanical problem.
Personally, I feel like the Extra Deck is YGO's greatest feature. That said, I think these problems arise from cards that fail to provide a meaningful hoop to jump through.
Addressing Companion, they are primarily Eternal Format problems because their deck building constraints can be completely ignored in that environment due to the sheer size of the card pool. Lurrus's 2 Mana Value restriction means nothing when a format like Vintage already plays exclusively 2 or less Mana Value cards. Lutri's singleton restriction is a non-factor in a singleton format like Commander. For a non Extra Deck centric game like MtG, the deck building restrictions weren't well balanced against the 8th card factor.
For YGO, every successive Extra Deck mechanic was more generic, and the game's innate pacing was kicked up to further trivialize the effort required to summon Extra Deck monsters. LV8 Synchros are a good example of how a previously restrictive (and therefore deck limited) card can turn into a generic and widespread card as other components around it become more powerful (like the example of Lurrus). Originally, when Duelist Genesis was released, there were no LV4 Tuners in existence. This meant LV8 Synchros were often 3 card combinations (tuner + 2 monsters or LV5+ monster/tribute fodder). Crossroad released the 1st LV4 Tuner with no functional synergies. It takes a year before Flameveils produce a synergistic LV4 Tuner (and it still sucks). I believe last ZEXAL produces the 1st generic LV4 Tuner works as a 1 card combo for LV8 Synchros (Masked Chameleon). You can witness the trend of special summonable LV5+ non-tuners in ZEXAL becoming increasingly common to further trivialize the summon of a LV8 Synchro.
When it comes to Extra Deck options, you need to be very careful about the components of the Main Deck that can access them.
Actually, Lurrus’s restriction really hurts in Vintage. It’s just that pre-errata Lurrus was so busted that it didn’t matter.
You can even see this sort of thing happening with older extra deck methods like Fusions. What once required 2 specific named monsters can now be as generic as 2 monsters of a given attribute
@@modernkiwi6447 And it has to be that way now because otherwise, Fusions will never hit the field fast enough. It sucks because that was the one thing that made Fusion Summoning a unique mechanic. Now it's Extra Deck Summoning with a spell card (and most times not even anymore).
One of the main problems with yugioh is that the powercreep keeps getting higher and higher, which means that cards and effects that were once powerful, but were hard to acess or had a cost/requirement/limitation, now dont have that.
A good example is in one of duel links last selection box...
You see, enemy controller, "either change the position of a monster, or tribute a monster you control, take control of a opponents monster till the end of the turn", since the beginning of the game till now, has always been a strong card, it was quickly semi limited, and in dezember of last year it got limited because of salads, and head judging, a continuous trap card that: "once per turn, when a opponent monster effect is activate, you make the opponent choose heads or tails then he flips a coin, if they call ir right, this trap is destroyed, if not, negate the effect and take control of the monster", this card was semi limited because it was considered too poweful, and like e-con, this card was moved limited.
Now, you would think that konami would consider not giving us cards like those, right?
Well, one of the last selection we got crackdown, continuous trap, "select a opponents monster, take control of it"...
Yeah, no till the end of the turn, coin flip, no nothing...
@@modernkiwi6447well, that's kind of the only way to make Fusion monsters even remotely playable. They were essentially worthless until they made their requirements more generic.
Extra decks are really cool until you realise that any generic extra deck card has the possibility to warp the meta, like halq is now and goyo did back in the 5DS era, they have to be balanced way more strictly than main deck cards do, unless your a red-eyes card, konami could print a red-eyes extra deck monster that reads “if this card is summoned, you win the game” and it would be maybe played in rouge decks
More accurately when summoned inflict 8000 damage in burn
Red eyes cards are so over the place why is burn so consistently added
Meanwhile I am playing a Monarch deck and not letting myself or my opponent play from the Extra Deck ;)
Extra decks are a blessing and a curse. It gives lower tier decks readily accessible cards that can be very good, but high tier decks can use them too which makes the high tier decks even better
Really appreciate this video. It made me think about how I'd incorporate an extra deck mechanic into my own game while avoiding these kinds of issues into the card game I'm working on right now. I can't say that I'm absolutely going to add the idea I came up with while considering the pitfalls listed in your video, but if you end up playing my game one day and there's an extra deck you can tell people that your analysis of the concept made me think about how I'd do it. I plan to kickstart my game one day, so it's not impossible, but I realize the odds aren't super great that that will even happen given the way the market is established. Just wanted to say.
Also cool that this video is 100% still relevant 3 years later. Great job on it, and I'm subscribing now! 😆
Not a Yu-Gi-Oh player but the insight you have in to games as a hole is amazing and I hope U keep making content
I don't play Yu-Gi-oh either. However I do play Magic the Gathering. I also used to play Pokemon. So I can follow the video fine. I have started to watch the Yu-Gi-oh tv show out of curiosity. It is pretty interesting so far with the strategies. I wouldn't go for this game as a casual person. However I do go for it as an aspiring game designer. I would like to see how this game works. It can help me learn about game design as a whole.
Thanks, I'm glad I can bring some helpful knowledge to the fold! No plans to stop videos any time soon, December was just a very rough month. Right now between this and my day job I can usually manage a video per month - 2/01 is the next video release so look forward to it!
@@c.d.dailey8013 the show is not representative of the game. However with yugiohs power creep it is safe to stay away from the competitve scene. If you do want to play just get 3 structure decks at 30$ and you can make a deck that can stay in the ring with your friends that do play. Fun but way over priced.
A hole indeed. A rabbit hole...
i dont mean to be so offtopic but does anybody know a method to log back into an instagram account..?
I somehow lost my password. I love any tips you can give me
I'm torn on Extra Decks because the "every game plays out the same" really burned me once synchro toolbox became a thing. Decks felt like that lost their identity when everything could run goyo guardian. That said I do agree that problem cards aren't worth throwing the whole concept out. I think working something in like Tag Force's Destiny Draw would be more interesting. Keep the variance but in a pinch your partner card shows up. Stuff like skills in Speed Duels / Duel Links also reinforce that partner / deck identity concept well.
Some kind of available reserve or special zone is really cool all things considered.
Happy to see you keep uploading btw. Love your videos 💜
A lot of people believe that some of the generic extra deck monster combo play or boss monsters needs to become less generic in their summoning requirements or have more restrictive effects instead like for example there is no reason why borreload doesn’t require rokkets to summon or isnt involved in its effect when it essentially part of the rokket archetype or why verte doesnt require any predaplants to summon or even forces the player to involve predaplants or opponent’s dark monster in its fusioning effect when that’s the whole point of predaplants
@@YukiFubuki.We're in a point where archetype-locked ED monsters are often weaker than the generic ones. Of course everyone will go for the generics, if even the options of their own archetype are worse than the generic ones.
The ED division should have been clear for the game to remain healthy:
Utility and response cards like removal, board breaking etc - generic.
Daunting bosses like omninegates, towers, recursion providers etc - archetype locked.
The game wouldn't have sped up to this point if this division was applied.
@@roncerjani9063 we already saw that in the early xyz era leading to rank 4 toolboxes decks because utility was so much better for the most part, some people like it and some people dont so i think there should be a compromise somewhere e.g borreload gettign the atk boost but not counters to negate if it doesnt equip a rokket, baronne only being able to activate 1 of either of its effect while face up if no warriors or fleur was used and accesscode can only banish code talkers for its destruction effect for examples
@@YukiFubuki. Good solution but not viable. They tried something like that with CXyz Numbers and they never got used. This issue isn't like "What's done is done and we should make it better moving forwards". If restrictions are applied to ED monsters, it should be applied to all of them, including the already printed ones, which should either get erratas or be banned. And I don't see that happening.
@@roncerjani9063 cxyz requires their base forms though so you need to find a way to get those out first, that’s a bit too heavy of a restriction that forces the player to dedicate their deck to it if not some convoluted method to cheat it out or just not use it at all and anyway it’s jsut a hypothetical example
my idea is so some parts of them is still generic like you still can summon them and get a portion of their effects but only the proper deck can use them fully, not like cxyz where they cannot even be used at all without going through the rounds
ahhh for the fifth time in three years… right when I get bored of youtube it suggests an amazing channel with a lot of videos 🙌🏼
I like extra deck cards as an ace rather than an extender. It’s super cool to have a big guy that you are obviously going for and can call on in a pinch. Spend your whole hand getting two level 4s on the field? Guess who’s coming!
Sometimes its not even just the ed thats the problem, but actually the way in which certain cards are made to be generic and splashable into any deck.
Being from the ed or md, it doesnt matter, if its strong, generic, and easy to acess, then its a problem card.
The main deck is rarely a problem imo, the only problem with the main is handtraps and even that is a response for the problems of the extra deck. There wouldn't be the need for every deck to play 6-7 handtraps, if the opponent weren't capable of setting up a board of negates or unbreakable boards. The main deck is the gun and the extra deck is the killer. Give the killer a knife, a rope, a pillow even, he will still find a way to kill.
I really enjoyed and found this video insightful. However, I did find the audio to be quite low on volume such that I used the captions to follow.
By far the most powerful thing in card games is consistency. You could have a card that can be played for free that says 'Win the game. This effect cannot be prevented' but the only thing that matters is how often you can draw that card. So to always have access to a card or effect from the beginning of the game is always going to be insanely strong, and must be very niche or ABSURDLY minor to counteract how absurdly strong consistency is.
And to emphasize this: Hearthstone has two cards called Baku, The Mooneater and Genn Greymane who for the steep cost of building your deck with only cards with only odd or only even costs, would upgrade your hero power or reduce the cost of using your hero power. Usually resulting in a button you could use every turn that says something like 'Deal 1 damage for 1 mana' or 'Deal 2 damage for 2'. Very minor effects! For the incredibly cost of only disallowing HALF the possible cards. They were so terrifyingly meta warping that they had to be taken out of the standard format prematurely.
Amazing vid dude, you really do a great job
Thank you!
Damn! You deserve more than 744 Subscribers! Your thoughts have helped me improve my card game! Thank you very much!
Great video, but please turn the volume up more when editing.
Leaving a comment, hope your channel takes off!
Thanks, I appreciate it! Fingers crossed the channel keeps growing!
I like extra deck mechanics, I love synchro summons in YuGiOh, they were imo the best designed extra deck monsters, with xyz summons as a close second (purely from a design standpoint).
I think the reason YuGiOh has some of the troubles it has is due to not separating the types, archtypes and attributes enough.
Sure those things are present, they simply have to many things being splashable.
If archetypes had more difficulty in mixing, some of the broken combos simply wouldn't exist.
I really like Eternal's market as an extra deck. Basically you have a market of 5 cards off to the side and there are a number of cards that allow you to swap a card in your hand with a card in your market, always with some sort of restriction like color or cost of the retrieved card. Its elegant in that you have limited slots and often have to make real deckbuilding decisions about how you want to access it. Most decks will have room for 1-2 value cards and 3-4 answers so you can shore up bad matchups or counter popular decks. Plus what cards you choose to access the market with has a big impact on your deck overall. Can you afford to play it on curve? Can you work around the restrictions? Does it fill any secondary roles?
Balance wise the primary issues have been when they print a market card that is to good. A few have been boarderline playable without the market access and become kind of baselines for any meta deck.
Perfect example of an xyz monster that has lopsided cost to effect balance are the zoodiac xyz monsters before ratpier was limited
Even without ratpier zoo monsters had disproportionate benefit for the cost. Drident plus broadbull is a search plus a pop off of one card, and then you also had chakanine after the second wave of support.
Even now a 3 wipe zeus plus drident pop was too much value from just normal summoning a zoo.
Great video. I'm designing a game that's is pretty much centered around an extra deck so this was a perfect video. I think the important thing with an extra deck is to make sure you have a balance of variance. One of the issues I find with Yu-Gi-Oh is that the main deck is still really consistent. You get 3 copies of each card and there is a massive amount of searching in the game which leads to an over-prevalence (at least compared to other card games) of OTKS. I like MTGs commander's approach since there is so much variance in a 100 card singleton deck but the commander is always available and can be cast multiple times making it super consistent.
does anyone have a link to the saffron olive video mentioned at 2:30?
Only as tool box cards like removal. Harder stuff like lockdowns belong to the main with rng as a balancing mechanic.
Same for things that put mats on field. Thos cards need to be avoided or they need to have a cost in the way of rng like isolde wich requires younto run bricks.
Most helpful video on the subject I have found. Brilliant.
New subscriber.
Thank, glad I could help! And happy to hear you enjoyed the video!
currently working on a card game and you have a starting card basically 1 card you always have in your starting hand
On the point of Extra Decks lending flexibility, shouldn't that role be taken by the sideboard? Having powerful answers to linear strategies always available can be good, but I think it's something that you need to specifically design around and prevent from eliminating the viability of those decks. Fantastic video though, I love listening to your content!
Sideboard and Extra Deck answer different things. The sideboard allows you to adapt to your opponent's deck. The Extra Deck allows you to adapt to how the game is playing out.
I see extra deck mechanics as being limited by two factors: accessibility, and variety. As a long time MTG Commander player, I've gotten used to the 'extra deck' of the command zone allowing the commander to be cast consistently during the match, but find the wind options available to YuGiOh sideboards pretty crazy. It's effectively like having 15 commanders you can cast, each responding to a different scenario or circumstance, be it to counter a strategy, advance your own, or end the game. The nearest comparison I can draw to MTG is that of the 'wish' mechanic, a set of cards that allow you to cast a card from your sideboard, effectively making it a toolbox of options, albeit only accessible by those certain wish cards. Even then, it's a rather hard thing to pull off, and nothing like the YuGiOh system.
After learning more about YuGiOh, I've come to think of their Extra Deck as somewhat analogous to the MTG Command Zone, but with such an expansive list of options, that it eschews the sort of build-around mechanism that the Command Zone adds to Commander. When you have only one card you can cast consistently, you want your deck to compliment that consistency, which is the general deck building philosophy of commander. I've seen this relationship between random cards and consistent cards break down a few times, notably with Companions, and in another format called Oathbreaker, which plays like Commander but with 60 card decks, a planeswalker as your commander, and a 'command spell': a spell you could have in a Command Zone position and cast when needed. Opening up the 'extra deck' to spells fully broke the format, as many of them were not designed to be constantly, consistently accessible.
Whereas YuGiOh it seems to be implemented the Extra Deck to better develop the Fusion mechanic that had existed since the beginning of the game, MTG is not designed as such, and it limits both the accessibility and variety of cards that can be given the level of consistency the extra deck provides.
great analysis.
T. Monarch player
I don’t know if this counts, but for a game like flesh and blood would the equipment pieces and weapons count as an extra deck.
I have a funny idea of how they could balance YGOs extra deck.
"You can only use the top card of the extra deck"
I think that would make more of a separate floodgate card.
that ruins a bunch of weaker arctypes
@@Byakurenfan people will also just stack the extra deck in a specific order too
Dude, the balancing solution is already obvious - errata some extra deck cards to be less generic and make less generic extra deck cards going forward. But they'll not do it because it isn't profitable.
@@roncerjani9063 Actually, that could be super profitable by weakening rogue decks so people need to buy meta.
I feel like any game involving using smaller weaker monsters to build your way to stronger larger ones kinda needs an extra deck.
Imagine drawing the evolution with out the cards necessary to go into it. Imagine drawing all the base cards but you can't evolve then until you draw into the powered up form.
From what I understand in pokemon TCG, evolution, one of the core game mechanics, is severely underutilized in meta deck because no one wants to deal with this specific hassle, even with all the draw power in that game
I think the extra deck in Yugioh should really be for cards that are HARD to summon. Not those that are easy. Things like horakhty, Ritual Monsters, Dark Sage, etc. many of those cards kinds of cards are really bad because they neg you so much to summon them.
In magic, you should be able to play lands from your sideboard as a game mechanic. That way you can exchange flexibility for consistency.
1- always hurts my heart that you come from yugioh. at the same it adds some freshness to the videos, as it seems you are the only person in the yugioh community making interesting videos. Glad to see tou still alive and kicking bro.
2- the video is focused but limited. as per usual, perhaps since i am no novice, i fell much was left to explore and many crossreferences could have been done.
3- for example: cannot make a video on extra decks without also talking about sideboards.
4- as someone said below, extra decks may be ways to reduce the feel bad moments of card games using yugioh as the main example for the video seems like a mistake. due to the current state of that game, the main deck is already too consistent( too much tuturing) so saying the main use of the extra deck is to minimize lack of consistency seems incorrect.
5- on a similar tone: pokemon doesnt have sideboards nor extra deck mechanics. thats to abundant draw power for every deck, no more consistency is needed and the flexibily of specific answer cards are present on the main deck. and most decks are toolbox decks.
6- when reading the title of the video Force of will´s extra deck was the first thing that came into my mind. curious how that innovatons is now so outdated since newer games, specially digital one, go with the heathstone formula of no resource cards+resources given to the player every turn. p.s how about a video on The Kid on the block, runeterra?
7- on incresing consistency: mtg has become quite demonized in the eyes of the younger generations but despite all the game´s problems it gets most things right. adding too much consistency seems like a mistake leading to everything feeling samey and making things overall not stimulating or interesting to play or watch. Similarly as how streamling and simplifying games made them more acessible but people keeo returning to mtg in part becuase it is the most complicated and rewarding.
8- where are hearthstone´s hero powers in all of this?
9- returning to yugioh: as everything in that game balance is off and balance is everything. the extra deck cards are not only too accesible but also accessible too fast. in the way the implementation of the mechanic is the problem. as a whole i have been defending that yugioh needs a new sense of balance( and better card design) with less consistency and less speed. That could include eleminating the extra deck and adding those cards to main deck, making it 50 or 60 cards minimum.
The extra deck should be harder to use. I think, in Yu-Gi-Oh's case, you should have to banish face down all materials used for an extra deck summon. Lore-wise it makes sense: you combined them together for something else--they shouldn't exist anymore. Gameplay wise, it helps shut down lots of combos and makes it so you really have to think hard about whether or not its worth it to use your resources you have right now for an extra deck summon that you might lose to removal.
Or even simpler, lock most of them into an archetype, or at least a type.
Look at Herald of Perfection - it was the most daunting monster imaginable in Drytron, but did you ever see it outside of Drytron? Never.
If you are up against Rokkets, you'll deal with Borrelsword, if you're up against Fairies, you'll be facing Apollousa, if you're up against Cyberse, you'll be facing Accesscode.
Not everything mashed in a single Extra deck, with the main decks competing about which of them can Summon them faster
Watching this while Destiny Hero Destroyer Phoenix Enforcer is running rampant is definitely haunting…
Watching this as Baronne de Fleur, Accesscode Talker, and Chaos Goddess appear in every deck.....
Looking back, 2017-2020 yugioh (Master Rule 4 before the revision) was probably the worst era of the game design-wise
Extra decks are fine. Bad design and a lack of testing is almost always the issue. It's not as if other cards that are main deck exclusive dont have similar power to warp a format in the very same way and using varience to balance cards is horrible design philosophy.
As A person who plays Cardfight Vanguard, The way Cardfight Vanguard uses extra deck mechanics is interesting.
For the period of 2014 until 2018, the extra deck functioned like how Yugioh's extra deck does but instead of calling it as a unit like you do. you place it on top of your boss unit which is the vanguard. This triggered effects that your Boss unit may have that are only activated when you place a card on top of it.
Then from 2018 til 2021, we have markers instead. they go where the extra deck is and depending on what strategy you go for, you can get different markers that allow you to do different effects. these can range from giving your units more power or giving you a free shield.
The current iteration of the Extra Deck is called the ride deck. In vanguard, you become stronger by riding upwards, starting from 0 and going as high as 3 with just the ride deck. this gives you extreme consistency with whatever deck you are playing and the strategies you can employ but doesn't actually change the main deck itself. So while it's a consistency boost, it doesn't actually change what cards you may draw from your main deck.
Been listening to your videos quite a lot recently after starting a little game design project. One question though: while you cover some many card games, including rather rare ones, why don't you cover Hearthstone at all? I know it's a digital card game and is not as deep due to lack of interactivity on the opponent's turn, but I was really looking to see if you consider Hearthstone cards that add things outside of your main deck. If you like Japanese games, Shadowverse is also worth considering and plays quite like a blend of Yugioh and Hearthstone/Magic. Sv also features similar mechanics that might be considered in your discussions.
Glad to hear you've been enjoying the videos! Many of my talking points come from a mix of research and familiarity - if I already know a few good examples from games I play often, I'll generally start with those, and unfortunately, I can only load so much into one topic. That being said, the next video I'm releasing (Monday 2/01/21!) features Hearthstone as a discussion point, and I definitely want to look into it more for future videos. I also hadn't heard of Shadowverse, I'll look into it!
cardfight vanguard 💪
the intro louder than the voice over
It's hard to take someone's opinion on TCGs seriously if their favorite TCG is yugioh.
Ah yes Halqi and Linkross, 2 disgusting link monsters that keep appearing from decks to decks, and the reason why i quit ygo before its nerf. Thank god they balance it by banning or limiting involved cards, i appreciate their works!
Little disappointed you just stuck to Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh since it leaves out my favourite extra deck mechanic, that being Force of Will's. Force of Will operates under a mana system, similar to Magic the Gathering, however rather than clogging your deck with useless land cards, Force of Will's stone cards are placed in the extra deck, and are generated one each turn. This gives the benefits of a mana system, such as a predictable power curve and resource scaling, without the frustration that comes from drawing useless resource cards.
That's not really an Extra Deck, just that your mana isn't really tied to cards (like in Hearthstone)
No.
Amazing insight
Ground breaking statement
I thikn Yugioh should make their extra deck cards as part of main deck. Meaning all those 15 cards would be put inside the main deck and when you draw them you woul put them back to the extra deck and draw another card. This would restrict all those pesky OTKs and would slow game the game down a little bit. Nobody likes to sit down for 20 minutes to someone to shuffle their field and wait for the correct moment to play whack-a-mole with their hand traps. Every game feels like western duel where the first one to have fast fingers is winner.
The entire reason Yu-Gi-Oh's Extra Deck exists in the way it does is because adding those cards into the main deck restricts their utility to the point of being unplayable. It took Konami like 12 years to make any decent, non-degenerate Ritual monsters, for example. It also wouldn't slow down the game enough to satisfy most folks given the amount of searching (or "tutoring," as MTG players call it) Extra Deck monsters inherently do. We've circled back to the way the game was pre-contact Fusion/Synchro, which wasn't much more interactive or fun.
Linkross is a very op card cuz it can summon tokens but needlefiber on the other hand isnt broken. The cards that r "broken" r the tuners that r easily summoned and dont restrict the duelist enuf and the extra deck monsters that r too generic and have powerful negation/disruption effects. Neeedlefiber is a card advantage net 0 and summons a tuner from deck that basically becomes useless. Needlefiber is balanced, its just the too strong tuners and the easily accesible ED monsters with op effects.
You forget to take in account that Tuners tend to have more advantage generation than other monsters to help with synchro plays. Also Needlefiber isn't really a net 0 if you link it off for a link-3, in which case you effectively went +1 by using only 2 monsters (i mean the 2 used for needlefiber) instead of 3 to bring that link-3 out.
so let's talk yugioh extra deck. the exemples you provided or recent, only links. Also, it is not like any link can do what Hal and linkross does. So, the issue here is: Hal, linkross, predaplant is awfully designed cards. And link monsters are too easy to bring onto the field, for too few cost or requirement, or even a punishment for losing a link monster.
The worst of all, is that konami KNEW this before printing these! They just thought, making some cards intentionally broken, is fine, because then they will sell more packs. In fact, In a act of disgusting corporativism, Konami REFUSED to ban Hal many times despeite the community BEGGING for it, and instead, they banned older tuner monsters for damage control, and only banned Hal, once he was an old card.
WITH THAT BEING SAID: Fusion, Synchro and Xyz were super fine. some specific cards were too op like, pretty much all T.Gs and Zoodiacs. but the mechanics themselves, were fine.
Links are fine too, but they should have been archetype locked or type-locked. Same thing about some LV8 Synchros and R4 Xyz. Halq is designed to support Synchro summoning so it should have locked you into Synchro monsters, Firewall was always used with Cyberse monsters and should have interacted with Cyberse monsters like it does now, not with every monster. Verte should have required a Predaplant or at least plant monster as material, not any monsters. See, Links aren't all bad, but they're being designed badly
I respect your decision and humbly disagree
I would argue the difference between Leader mechanics and extra deck mechanics as with the leader mechanic the game is designed to have your deck synergize with that one card where extra deck mechanics are designed for the opposite reason giving support to the main deck or providing alternative means of victory. The issue YGO has is that game wasn’t designed to have links, XYZ, synchros in it they were added as the New Hotness to get people to buy into that format of the game and EVERY single time a new type was added to the extra deck it caused the game to be redesigned starting with Synchros limiting the once known fusion deck to 15 cards and adding 2 new types of cards. Then you had xyz which introduced a new zone to the game which was the overlay and caused much confusion upon its creation. I’m not getting into pens and links because they’re more obvious than the latter.