Leopold and Loeb: The "Genius" Killers
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- čas přidán 7. 09. 2024
- The "genius" killers who made a TON of stupid mistakes.
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We had a couple kids in grade nine that'd skipped a grade or two. They were siblings with Tiger Parents. I remember them freaking out because they got grades in the low 90's on an art assignment. It was really hard to be sympathetic, but they were absolutely paniking about telling their parents. If your kids get 90's and you get mad, you're a bad parent.
I was one of those kids who'd cry at a 90 because I knew I'd at the very least get aggressively interrogated all the way up to a spanking depending on the importance of the grade. I remember a kid who struggled asking me what my deal was and I told her I'd get my ass chewed for it and that was the first time I realized what was happening was perhaps not normal, because of the look she had on her face. I was like 13
Parents are told not to send their genius kids ahead too many grades (these days) because it's healthier for kid's social/emotional/mental development to school with people their own age. In fact some Uni's like Harvard wont even admit students that won't be legal adults by the start of their first semester. Instead, it's encouraged to provide said students with enrichment courses or tutoring, to keep them challenged and thriving.
Sounds like a much better idea to me.
Wish someone had told our parents that in the 80s :P
I graduated highschool in 2005, only about a year younger but I studied with them through all years. What we could do in our little country school at that time is take courses for a few college credits, while in highschool.
My school had a program called "school within a school" (SWAS) that separated the 'gifted' students from the others rather than having them move up to protect our social/emotional integrity, but instead they essentially decided it would benefit all of us to compete against each other while spewing adulatory comments our way incessantly. It has been torture for me as an adult trying to get rid of my superiority complex and the tone of condescendence in my every day speech.
Working for a private College I can guess that is less for concern for the kids and more due to all the extra legal issues that come into play the moment you are dealing with students under the age of 18.
Yes. My son. They tried to skip grades with him 2 times. I said no both times. Had he done that he would have been in college at age 16. He has a 175 IQ and is just flat brilliant, at every thing. He is finishing his 2nd year of college studying Aerospace engineering and minoring in mathematics and physics. 1.75 years in and he is already taking senior level classes and will have his B.S. in 6 months. love my son dearly and proud as hell. However he has an ego the size of the Hindenburg. I have spent his entire life trying to keep that ego from exploding. it is a daily challenge. Encourage the genius while controlling the ego.
Yep, mysister, went toStanford at sixteen.was skipped two grades in the early sixties. She is damn smart, but a sixteen year old kid is a sixteen year old kid.
It's strange, Kevin, that you choose to begin your sentences with lower case letters, yet also, in the very same paragraph, use ALL CAPS in places. How about this: Save your capital letters for the beginning of sentences, and skip the annoying ALL CAPS all together. Thanks!
I hated school and wanted to drop out. I wasn't a bad student, I was a B average student, I just hated the school. I had a math teacher who told me that she skipped the 8th grade and graduated in January of her senior year, so she was in college at 16. While at college, she couldn't go out with her friends because they could get into places she couldn't (drinking age was 18 at the time, she was 16). She also had to study an extra 3 hours a night to keep her grades up. Well, she got a degree, and where did it get her? Right back in high school! I have 2 theories, 1) she was afraid the college kids would outsmart her so she taught high school to prove she was better than others, or 2) She never had a childhood and she's trying to recapture some of the time she lost.
Looking back, I see what she was trying to do. "Stick with it, don't give up", but the way she went about it, it sounded like she was rubbing her intelligence in my face.
When I read the part about genius with a big ego and 16 year old is still a 16 year old, you both had the right idea!
Letting his branches raise high while keeping those roots firmly grounded x sign of a good parent
@@crimsonffire Thank you Amanda. I do greatly appreciate the note. You have a wonderful day.
I was totally that obnoxious kid who would try to squeeze into conversations that I graduated at 15 and it was cringey as hell. Plus 10 years later I’m a college dropout with a part time job it’s not exactly something to brag about lmao
I'll do you one better--I started university at 12, got 7 degrees, and at 44 am a stay-at-home mom and haven't had an external career in 2 decades. So, don't feel bad. You're still intelligent and college at 15 is still an impressive and admirable accomplishment. Be kinder to yourself. 🙂
You two better not become murderous friends
@@blupeppers6437 I'm pretty sure we'll resist the urge 🙂
@@whaleymom76 since I wrote that comment I’ve started trying to get mental health help so hopefully that’ll help me hold down a full time job or go back to school in the future. If being a sahm was something you wanted to do then it seems like you spent your life well! Learning and raising kids are both things a lot of people would want to spend their whole lives doing so no waste at all.
@@emilyk5003 My dear! I am so , so glad you are getting help and feeling better!! Also, thank you for your thoughts about being a mommy. For my entire life, no matter what else I wanted to be, the one thing I was certain I needed to be was a mommy! I have never regretted being a mom. An expensive job and all the degrees in the world would mean nothing if I didn't have my kids. 🙂
I’ve heard these guys mentioned before and about how they thought they were too smart to be caught but never knew the details of the story. I went into this expecting crazy twists and turns, and all I got was the fastest solved murder I’ve ever heard of.
They were not smart
@@ramencurry6672 If they wanted to prove their mental superiority, why did they decide that conducting the perfect murder was a good way to demonstrate their intelligence? Wouldn't it have made more sense to split an atom or find a cure for cancer?
@@Orphen42O You have a point
and keep in mind it was 1920's forensics. There was very little intelligence on display here, it was all arrogance
For wanting to commit the “perfect crime” and being so smart, they sure made some dumb and sloppy mistakes.
Their feelings of intellectual superiority drove them to try a ludicrously intricate plan with a million elements that could go wrong. They could have easily just shot a homeless person in broad daylight and easily gotten away with it
Media blowing things out of proportion with the "genius" thing......
...... shocking
The intelligence of these two is always overstated. So many people confuse being rich and going to good colleges with being brilliant.
@@mayabc333 Not only that, they underestimate the police, and think them dumb. A double arrogance.
When a smart ass gets caught seems to be the tale
This reminds me of Ethan Couch who killed four and got a slap on the wrist due to "affluenza" -- being too rich to know what he was doing is wrong.
I was think that too. God I hate that case. I still tell people about it and they swing between "wtf" and "oh he'll no"
That story is insane. I remember reading about it for another video. Crazy.
@@TheCasualCriminalist I probably heard about the story from one of your channels, but I forgot from where due to the insane amount content in the Whistlerverse.
Keep up the good work and Blaze on!
A Grand Jury decides if the evidence is enough to charge a person for a felony. A Grand Jury is not a jury of ones peers which is used during a trail.
And this is why parents are encouraged to tell there children not to go with anyone, even friends, even if they say your parents sent them, unless they know your family safe word. So sad for Bobby Frank.
In my AP Chem class in my third year of high school, there was a 10 (maybe 12) year old girl in our eight-kid class. Her parents were STRICT. It was totally okay for her to learn about Nuclear half life, and be around humans twice her size, but boyfriends and birthday parties???? Out of the question! On a really cute note, she had a secret boyfriend (HER AGE) who exchanged secret letters with her 🥺
My parents were like that. I was taking AP courses at 14 and did a university semester when I was 15 (I never went to university again because I didn't want to). They were perfectly happy to push me harder and harder because I was smart, but if I wanted to apply similar intelligence to succeeding socially? No way, no girlfriend for you.
She's 12 (maybe 10) in classes with high schoolers can you blame them?
Wow, from the childhood genius intelligence to the strict parents to the secret kid boyfriend and their secret letters (CUTE), that girl’s life is a promising movie plot
Lifelong Chicagoan here, this crazy story has always interested me. Looking into the weird history surrounding this all, you will find the body of Bobby Franks was laid to rest in his family’s mausoleum in Rosehill Cemetery on the north side of the city. In the very same cemetery, buried not far at all away, are the bodies of the families of both the killers.
Given Bobby Frank was Second Cousin to Leob it's not that surprising
Not from the Midwest but I did drive past one of the old cemeteries in the Chicago area. I thought it was fascinating at the thought that the people buried there are the Chicago people from the old historical era
There’s no genius in killing a child. Now if they had taken out Al Capone, that would have required a bit of cleverness.
Those "special schools" for super child geniuses definitely either gave a complex or crippling depression... or both. I went to one, and all the kids in my graduating class fits this lol
My parents made the wise decision to refuse that I skipped a class, twice. They were worried for my psychological well-being.
I was mad as a kid, very glad later.
I found parents to be the biggest problem in the gifted community. Two kids in gifted programming, both now in post grad. I made sure my kids were well aware of both their strengths AND weaknesses and let them know they were NO better than their peers.
A normal experience is what all kids need no matter their IQ smart slow or average
im still kinda in one of those programs. no social skills, high stress level, possibly anxiety, but i havent burned out yet and im in pre calculus as a sophmore with a couple ap classes. all because i passed a test in second grade.
@@solaceofthestarz you have to find a path that makes YOU happy. 2nd grade test or no, I've seen gifted kids crash and burn in mainstream and gifted classes. The key is to find a stream that makes you happy (dropping out is not an option). Find areas of interest with others who are like minded. Eventually the playing field levels and hopefully you will have done your best to come out unscathed. BTW I HATE the term gifted. There's no gift in being perceived as different when you are a child
The abundance, or lack of money to afford a “good” lawyer is still one of the major factors in whether you will receive a decent chance at getting probation, jail time or a good plea deal in the U.S. I got in trouble some years back with the law and my parents ability to essentially pay an attorney to get me probation and the fact I had a good education was the reason I didn’t get jail time (it was a bad time in my life). I’m thankful because I’ve turned my life back around, but I am fully aware a person with more limited means would not have. Looking back it is highly unfair and is a major problem with our justice system and this inequity is rearing it’s ugly head.
There really are two criminal justice systems in the US...
I’m glad you can see that with your self awareness!
My recommendation is just using your privilege to help others!
@@ENCHANTMEN_ Three. The one for the rich, the one for the poor majority, and the one for poor minorities.
I'd say that the CRIME that you committed has far more to do with those things...
@@DopeioThePhoneBoi Interesting that you don't mention different ones for men and women. I guess you can't be bothered to look into actual faults in the judicial system and instead just parrot garbage you hear on twitter. What a great SJW you are...
They needed the Terry Pratchett version of Phrenology... Retro-Phrenology, hit them over the head to cause lumps and bumps to shape their character... It may have done them some good
Applied phrenology
This is why when someone had the bright idea to skip me three grades in school my family and I were like no thank you. Normal socialization is important too. On a side note there was a pretty good old b&W movie "The Rope" that must have been based on this.
Contrariwise, I wasn't able to skip ahead due to "socialization", and wound up seriously fucked up, expelled, and my future pretty well ruined (even fifteen years after graduation) due to socializing with my peers.
Public schools are great!
@@stevenschnepp576 Wow man that sucks. In my case everyone in school knew who I was but I had friends and nobody bullied me for being me. If I'd been four years younger, I don't know, maybe I would have still made friends, maybe I'd have been beaten to a fine paste. It's a hard choice. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. Seriously. And I truly hope things get better.
That's nice! My situation was hopeless. Who cared if I skipped 4th, 5th, and 8th since I never socialized in the first place? I grew up doing online school from kindergarten up to highschool. Grew up in the country without much friends as well. Ironically, my academic leaps were of no consolation at all since I ended up quiting school several times anywsys for a total of three years. Those were honestly some of the best years in my life though. I got to work on my health (got diagnosed with a chronic disease which I needed to focus on), travel more, meet new people, experience things in real life, and make more friends.
@@vrinkee Sounds like you found hope in a hopeless place. Everybody’s journey is different. As long as the road you forge leads to happiness and fulfillment, it’s the road for you. :)
"Rope" is in color (but it's acted in b&w :) ). Adapted by Alfred Hitchcock from a stage play, it had the gimmick of being shot without cutting. The camera just moves around the set and stops on a still object at reel changes.
I love when you get to a video and it says "No views"
Makes you feel special
You are special.
You're special, too, Simon! I recently subscribed to one of your channels and love your content
Barely Animated ... why does that make you feel special .. weird ...
You know, I suddenly remembered the “affluenza kid” defense and realized it wasn’t the first time that was entered as a defense...
In recent years, there was a rich kid who rapped a girl and the judge gave him a slap on the wrist. Reason being, he had a bright future to think about. Not wanting to ruin his chances of success.... Total bullshit, money bought his freedom.
Moral of the story , You got money you get justice, If you ain't got money no justice.
@@dangreene9846 Its not just justice, its education, opportunity, comfort, and even the simple things like food water and housing in excess no less.
Now don't fool yourself to think it would be any different with a different political scheme. Unless you can create something unlike anything tried in human history so far.
Am I the only one that hears the podcast and then waits to watch it in CZcams???
Simon has the best narration voice/style
And I love true crime stuff
Double legend.
Yep, I listen to it in the car first and then later watch on CZcams too 😂
I'm far to obsessed with CZcams and I love Jen the editor clips.
There was a 12 year old in my high school. Poor kid didn't know how to socialize and some high schoolers are mean. I felt bad for him. But he was kinda annoying. I tried to always be nice to him without signaling him out so the bullies wouldn't think a girl had to protect him. If I saw stuff, I tried to get a teacher involved
The term "affluenza" has also been used to refer to an inability to understand the consequences of one's actions because of financial privilege.
The term "affluenza" was re-popularized in 2013 with the arrest of Ethan Couch. (Wikipedia)
The Leopold and Loeb case was ground breaking because in Judge Caverly’s Decision, the specifically mentioned that the age of the defendants would be considered for the death penalty. The Judge was interested what this case meant for the psychology of murder, youth responsibility, and when you are mentally an adult.
Simon: "The death penalty is unnecessary vengeance, life in prison is good enough, the community is safe."
Also Simon: "He got out after only 30-some years?!"
Those two ideas are NOT conflicting. Thirty years is NOT life. See the difference?
People get their sentences reduced, even from death row and end up out on parole. Kill them! Keep them out society, vengeance mixed in is a side benefit.
Having to live in Illinois for that long is misery. That’s why I’m against the death penalty. Not because I think it’s cruel and unusual punishment. It’s actually much worse to spend 30+ years of gang rape, in a box, manual labor, etc. After a few years of that you would be begging to die! Less expensive too, no money spent on appeals, lawyers, etc.
@@jeremystewert4303 However, you are still breathing, eating, and LIVING. Is that fair to the victim? It cheapens the victim's life. Families are affected, children are affected, and it leaves life long repercussions, when a person is killed.
If you honestly think a person should never be allowed back in society, what's the point of spending money just to keep them alive staring at a wall in a metal and concrete room?
I always shed a tear for Danny when you say “me and Callum, same page”
Simon is a two timer confirmed
Oh Danny boy the pipes the pipes are calling...
.... Tis you tis you must go and I must bide....
Are Callum and Danny locked in the same basement, or does Simon have a network of basements across Prague?
@@PaulMcElligott I feel like Danny and Sam are in the same one, but when he talks about locking new people in the Basement it is with a capital B and in that sense similar to church and the Church. When he says I will lock you in the Basement, that could be any one of a number of basements in Prague like you suggested. On the other hand when he talks about locking someone in the basement with Danny and Sam, he means the same basement but I don’t think they have contact with those two fine men. They are kept in a holding cell until a basement in the Basement is suitably located. 🤣🤣🤣🤣
"People who boast their IQ are losers" - Stephen Hawking
MENSA!
@@coreym162 hi there! Have we met!? 🤣😽
Fun fact: Hitchcock's great film "Rope" was inspired by the case of Leopold and Loeb.
Wasn’t aware of that. That’s a great movie.
@@mamapetillo8675 It is. One of my favorites of Hitchcock.
@@mybraineatseverything7404 Two continuous shots. One limited set.
Suspense. Masterfully suspended.
I wonder how many filmmakers could pull off something like that now?
@@mamapetillo8675 Right? Very few, for sure.
I wondered about that there’s some similarities between them
That was a good take on the Leopold & Loeb case. I'm against the death penalty but for some people, I waver a bit. These two are some of those.
Please tell Callum that "irregardless" isn't a word. It might seem like it ought to be, but it isn't. It's essentially a double negative as "regardless" already means "despite the prevailing circumstances."
Damn, I always thought “irregardless” was a word. It doesn’t come up as incorrectly spelt on my phone 🤔 is it just a British thing? (Unless you’re British too, in which case I apologise!).
Well, you learn something new every day 😊 (I like words too much, probably due to my total incompetence with numbers haha).
@@Charley.Farley It's becoming so commonly used that I think eventually it'll be considered perfectly fine. People hear "irrespective" so "irregardless" just sounds right. I don't tell people who are using it casually, just anyone using it professionally. In all honesty, what matters most is being understood, and soon "irregardless" will be universally understood. :)
And no, not British. Well, not since the 1600s, anyway!
And in my case my mom didn't let them move me forward a few grades because she didn't want me to end up being "weird". Gee, thanks mom. Now I'm still weird but missed the chance to be a criminal genius, UGH!
When I was a freshman in high school, we had a genius kid named Roger, who was in 5th grade. Roger took the bus to high school every day to do take the science class in my first period. He was awkward, but cool to hang out with despite me being 5 years older than him. I think he graduated high school sometime in 2015-2016ish as valedictorian, and I’m pretty sure he’s working on his doctoral already. Kid was like a Sheldon Cooper.
Had a guy who was astronomical IQ . Think he graduated from MIT with a full scholarship. And he invented a process that he never had to work again.
Did you forget about Clarance Darrow?
My school had a program called "school within a school" (SWAS) that separated the 'gifted' students from the others rather than having them move up to protect our social/emotional integrity, but instead they essentially decided it would benefit all of us to compete against each other while spewing adulatory comments our way incessantly. It has been torture for me as an adult trying to get rid of my superiority complex and the tone of condescendence in my every day speech.
Cringe copy/pasting this in multiple comment threads lmao
@@oldkingcrow777 hhh
My best friend, now deceased, had three sons who all went to university instead of high school. The eldest boy was 19 when he began his PhD. at the U. of Chicago. All three were completely different from each other in personality, very nice young men. No murders. The musical about the Leopold-Loeb case brings up scenes from "Springtime For Hitler".
Surely they’re nice, but are they socially inept? Skipping a child multiple grades will stunt their overall development.
@@Tsumami__ Oddly, no. They had a very good stable home life and were able to live at home while they went to college. They made friends their own ages.
My closest encounter with the Reaper? Growing up! My mother was sadistic and homicidal. I grew up fearing she would end my young life.
And I knew she could get away with it, too, because she was very intelligent and clever and because she belonged to a very powerful and very secretive cult-like group. She had powerful social connections; she knew people in the court system (judges) and she had access to a dream team of attorneys. I lived in fear. She was a big fan of this case. She believed these two boys were geniuses and that impressed her and she blamed the adults in their lives for their brutal crime. On the other hand, I have a genius IQ (and I currently hold 4 college degrees all with honors), but she was very punitive with me and punished me, often harshly, for even minor misdeeds.
You still never miss... You can do this and Business Blaze and never run out of material
Business Blaze + the macabre topics from Biographics = Casual Criminalist
Don’t forget mega projects and side projects.
@@naturefix290 everything and nothing a little sideways.
@@naturefix290 or Biographic and Geographic!
@@hannahvilleneuve9328 we also forgot top tenz and today I found out. I feel like we are still missing one lol.
I cant stop consuming this with an eager ear. These are fantastic. Definitely time travel material. I start it and before i know it im an hour into the future with no clue how to get back to my proper time. Lol i love these.
The name of the film Simon talks about is 'Rope'. It's an Alfred Hitchcock.
He could also be talking about Compulsion which came out in 1959 starring Dean Stockwell
Nah, its rope. The pair in the film are a dead cert for Loeb and Leopold.
@@leonardwozencroft2129 Compulsion may not use the names Leopold and Loeb but the details in the film are closer to the murder than Rope is.
Dean Stockwell'a character collects stuffed birds-Nathan Leopold was an accomplished ornithologist, the nation’s leading expert on the rare Kirtland’s Warbler, and kept over 2,500 bird specimens in his study.
The setting of Compulsion is Chicago which is correct unlike Rope which is set in New York
Compulsion includes Darrow and included the glasses being left at the crime scene bit of the actual case.
I could go on but this film is closer to the real case
@@melindoranightsilver9298 : I agree with you that compulsion is virtually the story of loeb and Leopold .. Both are very compelling movies..
I think Compulsion is the most famous telling the direct story well. Rope is brilliant, but not following the specific facts.
I would’ve loved to be in the questioning room, listen to their bs explanation and, once they were done, ask “so how did that work out for you?”
I've always found that people who are book smart never seem to have much common sense. My cousin was one of those people who never had to study where as I always had to work hard for good grades. She however never got jokes, and was easily taken advantage of.
@Leroy Brown lol
my baby brother is a polymath. he has more sense than the rest of us put together. he not only gets the jokes, he tells them better than i do. he can spot a scam long before i do. he can play the guitar. MY grandkids adore him. sometimes, i want him to screw up, just to see it happen. but, seeing as i am not well, i depend on him. he is the exception that proves the rule.
Sounds like she is on the autism spectrum
Forrest Gump would have covered his tracks better than these two.
This reminds me a lot of Ethan Couch.
He was 16 and while driving drunk killed 4 people.
His defense argued that he had "affluenza" from affluent parents that had never taught young Ethan boundaries.
The judge gave him 10 years probabtion.....
Somehow, the unhealthy relationship between these two friends reminds me of the slender man “killers” (I forget what they call them, but fortunately, the two girls’ sole victim and “friend” survived. The young girls in question tried to sacrifice their friend to slender man in order to meet him). Just the influence one has over the other reminded me of the relationship between the girls in the case…
Same thing with the 'Scream killers' and their only victim, Cassie, except Cassie actually died.
the perfect murder is the one not committed
Factually speaking,that is untrue,as a murder is not a murder unless it is indeed committed...
@@jeffdroog fucking facts, dude, always ruining things
@@XYGamingRemedyG well...Technically you ruined it first by being wrong lol
@@jeffdroog I mean, it's all just for a laugh, like really every other comment LMAO but thank you
@@XYGamingRemedyG ah,then I apologize the laugh was at your expense lol
In some places you can't plead guilty on death penalty cases. As far as having cameras in the court room again it depends on the district, and a judge can ban them from the court room.
Business Blaze and Casual Criminalist are keeping me alive while trying to home school during lockdown!
Legend. Thank you.
It's not just revenge. One of the reasons some people want the death penalty over life in prison, is that people often get released early. In fact it's happened in some of the other cases on this channel! It's only made worse by the fact that our prison system makes almost zero effort to actually reform criminals, or to counter the conditions that lead to their crimes, so they frequently go on to commit additional crimes once released (which has also happened in other cases on this channel).
One could make an argument from cold logic: they're (allegedly) not ever getting out of prison so why waste resources keeping them alive?
The death penalty is barbaric, expensive, and unnecessary. You could always stick someone in a hole and slide food and water in the door 3 times a day instead, it's cheaper. and just as vile.
@@RaderizDorret Because it costs more to kill someone in our society than it does to keep them in prison for their entire life. Not to mention in the USA we get free labor out of our prisoners. helps keep costs down for free consumers and it's only technically slavery.
@@aick technically slavery cuts people out of honest work as well as making slaves of criminals that could have been doing the work for pay and not committing crime in the first place
@@alundavies8402 That doesn't make slavery OK.
Every time you sync with Callum, Danny loses a tear in his basement.
Simon abruptly sits up in bed waking from a dead sleep, one single thought pounds against his shiny bald head. "I must make a million channels! CZcams WILL BE MINE!!!!"
A teacher in 2050: this was, of course, before every CZcams channel was run by Simon Whistler. A dark and chaotic time.
This case continues to fascinate me. There's so much to explore here. The crime itself is only the tip of the iceberg.
wikipedia indicates Loeb was murdered in 1936 by another prisoner. Leopold, on the other hand, was paroled in 1958 and moved to Puerto Rico to take up a job offer from a charitable organization. He married and even taught classes at the university but died in Puerto Rico in 1971 [so much for never getting out of prison].
The genius was Clarence Darrow. I know you've covered him before on another one of your channels. Scopes monkey trial and leopold and loab. The way he stood up for the working classes against the pullmen train company. The man was a giant, and worthy of a hour long documentary from you and your minions. All the best.
@John Barber Carr had a couple books out that I remember, then he seemed to just drop off the face of the earth.
Dave, you should proofread a comment before hitting “send”
Getting people off of the death penalty so they can, typically, get out of prison later is not that admirable. He should have used his brilliance in a more helpful way. He didn’t help the working class in this instance, he played into the Hans of very wealthy people.
@@addie_is_me He used a super highly publicized case to make a larger point against the death penalty. He didn’t believe in the death penalty no matter how wealthy the defendant was. His arguments were published in every newspaper across the country due to the notoriety of the case, which sparked a lot of consideration and public discussion and almost certainly did help poor defendants indirectly by helping to change at least some segment of public opinion. I don’t think it was wrong for him to get paid for his work especially since he used paying jobs to support his pro bono work.
@Leroy Brown that was Johnnie Cochran.
After Simon does all these podcast he'll never let this child out anywhere.
I technically started school a year early. Not because of high intelligence or anything, but because of my birthday. As a September baby, my family fought to have me start the month I came of age, instead of having to wait a whole year just because of my DOB.
There are a few movies inspired by these two, usually aging up the victim to adult. Most classic is Alfred Hitchcock's "Rope" about two murderers holding a party in the room where they've hidden the body, demonstrating their need to prove themselves capable of getting away with anything. This case has had a similar effect of inspiration that the Ed Gein case had, where there is a certain element from each case that practically becomes a trope for murder stories. In this case that'd be the murderous duo, practically always two young men with a charismatic boss + shy nerd kind of dynamic.
What the script failed to mention is that in prison Leopold became a "model prisoner"
He reorganised the prison library which resulted in an improved education system, helping numerous inmates in their rehabilitation. He also volunteered to join the Stateville Penitentiary Malaria Study and was injected with malaria pathogens and then subjected to several experimental malaria treatments, some of which lead to later medical breakthroughs.
While this will obviously never atone for his crime, it does explain why he was finally given parole.
Just thought it should have been mentioned
This is one of my favorite cases. And as much as I don't like that Darrow got their sentences lightened, I have to admire his way of doing it.
You can't, with a full head, suggest that life in prison is better than a swift death. Especially with their crimes.
Simon: „people who skip a grade and go to university early often tend to be serial killers“.
Me who went to University with 17 and skipped fourth grade: sweats nervously
Callum is a legend with an iron stomach, each time I watch the casual criminalist I wonder how he can put up with reading each an every murder in gruesome detail online, when he is doing his research. I would put my hat off to you if I had one...
Leopold did do something good with his life after his release and from all I've read he would never have done anything like this without Lobe but and it's a big but he killed a kid so I'd happily have seen him rot in prison. I think the death penalty gets them off easier than spending 60 years locked up but I also think Lobe got his deserved end. I guess the bloke who stabbed him wanted to find out how he'd move with lots less blood and a nasty stab wound or 6, just all in the name of discovery.
Okay, VERY new subscriber here (I found you this afternoon), but I already love this series and how the crimes and psychology behind the criminals is presented. I'm looking forward to discovering more!
A duo could never commit a perfect crime because the perfect murder is something you can't tell anyone
In my area they allow advanced students to attend college courses. On girl a year younger than myself was taking Advanced algebra or beginners Trig classes at the university while still in Junior high (she was in 8th grade I believe). Then when I was a Junior in High school, a friend of mine was graduating a year early with her brothers class. So she was in my grade, the rest of whom graduated in ‘99, but she was a graduate of ‘98. Her brother was really, really unimpressed. I remember think that his behavior was a bit much at first, then I found out that she was 14 yrs old. So not only was she placed 3 years ahead of her peers from the start, she was bumped up to share graduation with her brother. He was a pretty cool guy, nice and polite, so I’m sure being out shined by his little sister in such a way was annoying for him.
It’s much more difficult now for that kind of advancement for students. As far as I remember, placing someone into kindergarten early isn’t t allowed anymore. And usually “early” would have been considered off by a year. It was fairly common for kids with birthdays in the summer and spring to be placed a bit early. Not 3 years like my friend, I believe she skipped grades in primary school. But I believe the enrollment dates have gotten much, much stricter. I was born in May and my brother in April so it wasn’t much of a hassle for us. But kids born in July tell the end of the year might find it to be more of a headache. Though, back in the 80’s kindergarten wasn’t academic like they have made it today, it was about socializing, playing, kind of an introduction to what school can be like. We also didn’t have all the head-start, preschool, preparation type classes and programs that exist now. It’s seems like a bit much to me.
As far as I know, the law about both being guilty is a thing in the US.
I think it’s something like if someone dies during the commission of a felony, everyone involved in the felony is guilty of murder.
That actually comes into play during armed robbery. If the victim of the robbery kills one of the robbers in self defense, the partner is the one charged with his murder.
No, not quite. If one of the robbers ends up killing the victim in a panic, both of them are charged with the murder, and even the getaway driver, if they have one.
Darrow found Leopold and Loeb to be distasteful, and I'm pretty sure he hated them. But he was so staunchly against the death penalty that he set his vehement dislike of the two aside to defend them. Dude's a legend.
32:40 Even when you confess you can still plead not guilty (though that makes the defense lawyer's job that much harder). Usually pleading guilty and skipping the time and expense of a trial gets you a lesser sentence of life w/o parole. Unusual bad luck if you plead guilty and get the death penalty anyway (it sets a precedent and will make future plea deals less likely) but ultimately the judge passes sentence with jury recommendations (the he can choose to ignore) during the sentencing phase of the trial after the jury rules guilty (not a lawyer, just a former frequent pick for jury duty until I quit doing what was getting me picked for that).
Better than the science of phrenology is the retro-phrenologist who claims to shape a client's character by changing the shape of his skull with a graded set of mallets and a little 'percussive maintenance'. (This is actually from Sir Terry Pratchett but I like it so much that I bring it up anytime phrenology is mentioned - not as often as you would think ...). Gruesome video, Simon - thanks!
Simon, with the knowledge you've attained from watching Goldfinger, and my knowledge gained from watching Goldeneye, we should totally go into the spy business. We can't lose!!
I actually like the idea of finding out exactly how many times my life could've ended prematurely. I am aware of a couple incidences when I was pretty close to dying, but I'm wondering if there are other incidences I'm not even aware of. Wouldn't it be fun if, before you were actually going to die, you could be presented with a full list of near-death experiences throughout your entire life! LOL
As someone who has nearly died 18 times and knows this, I would not like to know how many more times I have nearly been taken at a very young age.
These people are why my parents said no to me skipping grades. They says no multiple times because they didn't want to be "socially awkward" or more so at least. That and school is important for more than formal education.
I absolutely appreciate this podcast and Simon absolutely adds his charisma as usual! Thx to everyone behind the scenes as well!!
:)
Bobby Franks' father was the former President of the Rockford Watch Co, Rockford, IL.
Thought there was some connection to Sears Roebuck management in this story too. Haven’t gotten past the fist 15 seconds yet. I dimly remember this story because I think there’s a tie-in to the movie, “Rope” with Jimmy Stewart too
Wow what an amazing piece of *snoooooore*
@@todddiesen2647 Loeb's father, was vice president of Sears.
@@Imissyoulou so I was right about the Sears tie-in. Useless trivia floating around in my mental attic.
@@jameswalker4225 It's not useless, James. Loeb's father, also, had a high position within the Chicago Public Schools. This was in the late 1800 hundreds, or the early part of the 20th century. The Loeb family, was the wealthiest of the 3 families.
Michael: How can these Neanderthal Mafia guys be so good at crime, and we're so bad at it?!
Samir: Maybe because they have more practice at it...
There's always an _Office Space_ quote.
I also would've parolled Leopold. Dude was a model prisoner and had spent 33 years behind bars. He contributed a lot more to society outside of prison than he did inside of it.
Academic IQ:155. Street IQ:65. Court IQ:25. Dropping the soap due to a miscalculation in physics : priceless.
So Callumn is a British guy living in Japan bragging that he makes a great spy 🤔.
Sure, sure he does. He probably blends right in in the Shinjuku or Ginza districts.... pale pasty Scotsman in a sea of people averaging 5’8”, no one would ever notice being surveilled by Callum... never...
@@todddiesen2647 it's the 21st century he's not sneaking behind people. He's befriending them collecting Intel trace their phones whatever spies do, I don't watch many spy movies 😅
@@stephjovi using electronic tracings was supposedly ok when we were running operations in Russia during the Cold War too. But physical observation and human contacts were still necessary.
@@todddiesen2647 but people didn't have smart phones back than. Now you can just turn the microphone on and listen in to every conversation someone has while they have their phones with them. He can hire someone local if he really needs some old fashioned trailing but in Jon covid times he might not stick out, depending where he lives. He might pass for a tourist
@@stephjovi hon, they could do that back in the 70s too. The American embassy in Moscow was filled with low AND high tech (for the time) methods for spying on us, from antennae to read the typing on electric typewriters, to hypersensitive microphones in dead space air pockets in the walls, not to mention the physical location of the building. A lot of s..t you’d do a dismissive, “nah, no way” wave of the hand when you first heard it was done. Callum is part of the “belt AND suspenders” approach his employer takes to make Simon sound knowledgeable.
It's up to the Judge to decide whether or not cameras are allowed in a court room in the United States.
Yes, I did a quick Google and it looks like the laws were developed state-by-state, roughly around 2000. I remember it was well within my lifetime, as it was pretty controversial.
And that's why people push for the death penalty. If they had done it, he never would have been freed. No child killer should ever be freed.
I tend to agree
Simon, I was wondering what your experience in law school was like. I went to a law school where I had the highest entry scores, but it was still very intimidating being in room full of people who were so damn smart. It was honestly a difficult adjustment, no longer having the confidence that I was the smartest guy in the room.
Ironically, other than the sociopaths, everybody was very insecure about their intelligence. Were things the same where you went?
Reminds me of the plot of ROPE. Trying to be arrogant with intelligence and pull off the perfect crime
_Rope_ was based on a play inspired by this crime, so the similarities are intentional.
@@PaulMcElligott cool
There's an excellent Alfred Hitchcock film based on this story called Rope. Not one of his better-known works and it doesn't follow the true story closely. But it is tense af! And it makes great use of Hitchcock's fondness for showing a terror that is going to happen any moment and letting us watch as it unfolds
The senseless murder of Bobby Franks was in the book: The Crime Of The Century. Well worth reading.
A great film based on this story is Compulsion (1959).
It has a superlative performance by Orson Welles as the Darrowesque defence lawyer.
An absolutely brilliant film!
I want Simon to drink while doing this. It would make it even funnier 😂
Dropped a mono brow to rival Freida kahlo 😂😂😂😂😂 that was too good!!
The genital destruction is a horrific detail to be sure, but interesting just for the fact that it's usually presumed to be a sexual aspect of a killer's psychosis, when maybe in some cases it's just to make identification harder, considering the absence or presence of foreskin could be a sorting characteristic for ruling out some number of potential male victims.
Maybe that could have made sense back then, but it definitely doesn't now. Around 80% of men in the US are circumcised.
@@Krieger-jo2kf And 20% are not.
Back in the early 1900's, in Houston, to get a library card you had to have a letter of recommendation from your place of employement. I remember working at the library in the early 2000's, you show your id to get a card after filling out a form. A parent can get a card for their kid, under the kid's name. The library had to impliment a policy that you had to show your kids birth certificate when we had a rash of parents who would check out $500 worth of material under their kid's name, then they would keep the materials. Then when the card was blocked for overdue fines, they get another card under another kid's name. One woman would get cards for at least 5 of her kids, that had "Beyonce" as a first or middle name.
Tried holding off subscribing until I had a shot of putting the channel over 100k subs, but I can't. Curse you Simon, and your sweet dulcet tones.
You have strange aspirations.
There's a play called "Never the Sinner" about this case as well. That's how I was introduced to the case. It focuses on the trial and the relationship between the Leopold and Loeb.
The moment I heard they had dodged the death penalty I immediately thought, "one or both will get paroled somehow."
I knew one guy who skipped a grade, but he was actually a super nice guy. I think it helped that he was short even for his age, so being surrounded by a bunch of people a foot and a half taller than him probably helped keep him humble.
Even the very short girls were still about his height or taller.
Calhan is a great writer, there needs to be a memoogist like sam on BB for CC.
Dont know that adding memes to a somber topic like those on CC would sit well. I think this should remain sober. I love Sam's work on BB, and watch that channel everytime a new video comes out.
@@benf5091 In jest good sir, tho your definition of sober seems a bit lax as it where.
@@garrettfields6972 I mean, compared to BB this is as sober as an AA meeting lol
My twin sister was taking college courses for half the day junior and senior year(math and sciences only went so high). This was in a town of 130k, with 4 high schools. There was no option for someone more advanced, she was/had taken all the honors/AP/advanced courses offered. So off to college it was. Granted, you can fully drive at 15 in montana, and you can get away with driving a beat up pickup at any age as long as you can reach the pedals, see over the dash, and don't go too far in town.
At the time what made the case so shocking was that two intelligent & well bred young men seemed to commit a murder for no reason.
I love the judge's quote at the end about Leopold's reputation. 👌
the bias against Leopold was driven primarily by the fact that he "looked more jewish" than Loeb. hence the phrenology diss track.
As soon as i saw the diagrams i was like...ah...n@zi shit.
Re: bank account and car rental. Keep in mind that this happened in the 1920's. Credit cards didn't exist. Social Security numbers didn't exist. Even driver's licenses were relatively new. So opening a bank account and renting a car were was done much differently than it is today. I was actually surprised to learn that it was possible to rent a car back then.
I was ahead of all my peers in school and was recommended to skip several grades.
But the principal wouldn't sign on it because "I wasn't socially fit enough to get along with others in college."
Cuz thats super important to education.
Your principal may have helped you tremendously
I wasn’t allowed to skip either. My parents did me a favor.
The most important part of being successful in the working world is being socially capable of interacting with your coworkers. It is very difficult to build those social skills when you are several years younger than everyone else so your principal did you a huge favor. There's a good chance you'd be isolated and miserable now if they'd allowed that.
Loving this channel after finally being lured over from business blaze. Can’t wait to see you cover some more famous serial killers.
I’m no mother, but I think the hardest crimes to hear about are ones where the victim is a child or children. *What sin could a child commit that warrants the taking too soon of their life?* Truly abhorrent and reprehensible
He stole my apple juice in kindergarten and my girl started sitting with him
Smart is as smart does - not says.
My dad worked with a guy who skipped several grades and got his Ph.D. in Aerospace Engineering. He was bored VERY easily, so aside from his job working as an Aerospace Engineer for the US military, he'd busy himself learning whatever interested him. He slept about 4 hours a night and always seemed rested. First, he learned to play classical guitar in a couple of months, and played it for us. He said he was thinking about learning to speak Welsh next. Next time we saw him, he played us a folk song he'd written for his guitar ... in Welsh. Then he picked up gourmet cooking, but didn't give up his many other hobbies. This was all before the internet, and he even had clever ways of getting answers, like calling the operator (when they were real people) at 3AM to get advice on a soufflé he was making because one of the steps was left out of the cookbook he was using. Several different women working at that time put their heads together and helped him make it.
He was the smartest person I've ever met in my life. And he wasn't arrogant at all. He never talked down to anyone, even a kid like me. He loved knowledge, and he LOVED sharing it with others even more. John was/is an extraordinary being. I've only met two other people like him, *almost* as smart, just as kind and never rude or arrogant. I don't know about Mike - who got a Ph.D. in Physics mostly because he was bored - but I know Madeleine skipped 2 grades and got to college at 16, but never said anything about it, and never bragged about how smart she was. She's now a neurologist who works in a specialty clinic. She's also got lots of hobbies to keep her busy.
One thing about all of them is this: I know I'm *pretty* smart -- they're leagues smarter than I'll ever be -- but none of them EVER made me feel dumb or bragged about how smart they were. It's rare to meet people like that, and I've been lucky enough to befriend three of them. It seems to me that if you have to brag about how smart you are, or make others feel foolish to boost your ego, you're not actually *that* smart. Full disclosure: I used to brag about how smart I was. Until I met John, then Madeleine, then Mike, and I realized how shallow it was, and how very telling it was about me as a person.
"Rope", the Alfred Hitchcock movie, was supposedly based on Leopold and Loeb.
also "Compulsion".
@@princesstamika Ooh, I don't know how I've never heard of this movie! It has some great actors; I'll definitely be watching it on the next rainy weekend in Australia.
Sometimes you just feel like listening to Simon while cleaning and doing your weekend chores. ♥️
I thought I was the only one! Simon has helped me through plenty of borig boring boring house cleaning and ironing sessions. May he live and create YTcontent for ever, or at least until I retire to the old folk's home.
I can't wait for Simon's next channel: "The Hardcore Criminologist."
"In questing Man is said to live. For without love and pricking pain, without joy and failures shame, this life is not a life at all; But mere existance swathed in pall."