Are Fender Having a Laugh? $1500 for a Digital Amp....The New 59 Bassman Tone Master
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- čas přidán 17. 07. 2024
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00:00 Intro
00:32 Is this digital?
2:45 the good news
4:00 is the Tonemaster series closer than other digital amps?
4:48 Tonemaster on @ThatPedalShow
6:26 even for me as a digital guy I think I'd go valve?
7:00 How the Tonemaster stuff is different
7:25 The Fender Tone Master Pro probably shows their modeling isn't necessarily top of the game?
11:00 For the price, I'd buy a used Fender reissue?
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At least this time someone at Fender had 2 brain cells and actually added an FX loop on this version, still doesn't justify the crazy price tag.
I need more than the standard Tone Master 2yr warranty. This can make sense at $1,500 if it’s a near-lifetime purchase; it doesn’t make sense if it’s a couple years then throwaway when anything breaks purchase.
Good point
my point exactly
Agreed. Classic tube amps can often be repaired and fixed but a digital Tone Master amp may not be so easily repairable. Warranty is absolutely needed on these.
I've had my tonemaster for about 3 and a half years. Still an absolutely amazing amp that blows people away every time I gig with it. I always get tone compliments.
As you say, it's only fallback against the tube amp is longevity because if Fender decides to stop supporting it, it will be unrepairable. However it is technically more durable than the tube counterpart and requires no maintenance.
To me the conveniences of it far out way the slight possibility that I break it and Fender no longer supports it. I think I've already gotten more than my money's worth in usage out of it because of all the situations I could use it, where I wouldn't have been able to use the Tube version. It's a better amp and you are getting it for less money.
Literally a tonex pedal cost 1/3 the price andcan do exactly this plus so much more
I think there’s a lot of people who just want a fender tube amp but lighter and without maintenance. I can definitely see why these are popular even though they’re on the pricier side.
Yeah, it's literally a better amp for less money.
Have had the Tonemaster Deluxe for years and I'm really happy with it.
It's one and only downside compared to the Tube Counterpart is the possibility that one day Fender Stops supporting it, or maybe they go out of business and then some accident happens and your amp breaks. But I honestly think you can get your money's worth before that happens. Especially considering how much the amp costs compared to your cell phone or laptop, which will definitely expire sooner.
@@TheDilliganthis is what sunk cost fallacy looks like lmao
@trickfall8752 and @thedilligan i have a tonemaster twin and its awesome!!! i get every tone i need, and more... literally better amp and call me insane but i have played many twins vintage and reissue and highly prefer the fullness of my tonemaster!!!
@@cano228 are you sick at guitar
@@cano228 That's awesome, I haven't had the chance to play any of the Tonemaster amps, but I'm sure they're quality pieces of gear. I've played a bunch of old Twins and they ranged from magical to awful. I bet the Tonemasters are a lot more consistent.
If it sounds like a 59 Bassman at bedroom practice volume levels I would absolutely pay $1500 for it.
Hell no. Why would anyone pay that much for a SINGLE amp when you can buy a full Helix, Axe FX, etc for the same price and have all the other amps/effects? They're out of their minds. It should cost no more than the price of a cab plus a little extra to account for the computer parts to implement the model inside
I own a TM Twin Reverb, so I'll tell you exactly why: because I don't want to scroll through infinite menus on a computer screen after staring all day at a computer screen at work and a smartphone outside work. I also like owning a high-quality, cool-looking clean amp I can use for practicing in the living room without pissing off my neighbors. I also like having few options because it keeps me practicing instead of messing around with settings.
If I want Helix or Fractal level tweakability, I have a whole DAW-based operation upstairs with a pedalboard and a tube recording amp in front of it.
@@revolead the thing you and other people with the same mindset always got wrong is that you don't HAVE to "scroll through infinite menus on a computer screen" each time, every time. You make a sound exactly the same way as you would dial in an amp, save the patch, and then all you have to do is turn on a switch, plug in a guitar and start playing.
I would say it's even easier, you don't have search for and acquire the amp you want to try out in guitar shops or 2nd hand market, you don't have to lug around dozens of guitar cabinets, you don't have to change out speakers to find the right one - it's all in there a couple of button presses away.
I don't really believe that someone who says that he has his amplifier there, and that he can plug his guitar into it at any time and it sounds amazingly good at any time, is being completely honest with himself. He just subconsciously accepted that it sounded like that, and his brain learned to like that sound. Because he knows very well how much it sucks to be able to achieve any kind of development in your sound, how much it costs, how much time and energy you have to spend to find the right equipment, etc.
You can't compare the amount of time it takes to find your own sound on physical stuff and to find the same on modeling stuff. I know very well, because for 25 years I searched for sound using tube amplifiers (all kinds of models from Laney, Peavey, Mesa, Engl, Marshall in that order), then I switched to modeling stuff. I learned the ins and outs of it in a couple of weeks, made 5-6 presets for myself and that's it, I just plug in my guitar and play (in my opinion and also according to the members of my band, my stuff sounds the best so far). So at least don't lie to yourself with the excuse of "endless menus" :)
Also the fact that you prefer to messing around with settings instead of playing is not the device's fault...
@@Zool2107 I understand that argument. I have, in fact, owned equipment with "endless menus" or other things that need to be programmed. I even have a desktop studio setup upstairs where I have a Two Notes cab sim, a few rather complicated digital delays (with presets), and plugins so infinitely tweakable they make Fractals and Helixes look limited.
That said, I know what I prefer. I'm not lazy. I'm not some incompetent old fart (I'm not even 40 and I run a Linux system on one of my laptops). I just don't like sifting through menus to dial in a sound. And when I do want that much tweakability, I prefer my computer mouse and plugins on a DAW.
I also tend to only use one or two models of anything on programmable systems with 120 different options. I've learned that after owning a bunch of delays and reverb pedals and cab sims. Fender's design is for people like me. If you prefer 120 different amp models, go for it. But don't join the chorus of people crapping on Fender for not building a Fractal.
You have to understand that in the modern days, respectfully, tubes are outdated. A tonemaster does 99% of what the tube does sound wise, but has an attenuator, xlr out with cab sim, super light, etc. Its much more practical and useable, which justifies the price. Why would you buy a tube amp instead of a full helix, axe fx, or etc? Because you want the amp physically, you do not want some little display telling you. Having a tonemaster twin which is literally identical to a tube twin right in front of you is half of the magic! Also when gigging, its impossible to tell if its a tonemaster or tube!
Dog, the cheapest, smallest Axe fx is like $1000 and doesn't feature any speakers. The price of a 4x10 powered cabinet alone is gonna be like $600-$800 minimum. And there's also the fact that you might not have the space on your setup to accommodate a floor modeler or set of foot switches to control a rack modeler. I think there's something to be said about having xlr, effects loop, and a 4x10 all in one package weighing less than 40 pounds. Personally, I come from a bass guitar background, so I've never needed any convincing to get with modelers. And I'm more than happy going through a DI and the pa.
I personally have a UA Dream 65 cause I only ever use fender sounds most of the time. I'd prefer to have a bassman style of that pedal, as I like the more flat frequency response of a bassman as opposed to the scoop of a deluxe. However, universal audio doesn't make a bassman pedal. And for me, I feel like at some point, modelers get to the size and capability where you might as well just profile all your effects too. I feel like it'd be a waste for me to drop $800-$1000+ on a helix or fractal when I'm only going to use it for one or two amp models and not really touch any extra effects. So this product on paper would make sense for someone like me. However, I also recognize that it's not the most optimized solution
Hi Jon, I sold my TM Deluxe Reverb, the pretty blonde one, after a gig where I sat in with a medium loud band with another guitarist It didn’t handle my drive pedals at volume and sounded fizzy when soloing . It seemed like it was only happy turned up with no drive in front. I could have investigated finding compatible pedals but chose to sell the TM instead in disappointment
While I have the Blackface version, I haven't had any issues with harshness using drive pedals. Pedals include a Wampler Plexi, Wampler Euphoria, and Boss Distortion. Maybe your pedals respond differently. If it matters, I generally set my TM volume knob at the edge of breakup, which tends to smooth the highs. I control the hearable level with the power selector on the back.
What's your point with "medium loud band with another guitarist"? Did you have a problem getting loud enough?
Someone at Fender thought that since digital is more or less accepted now, they might as well try to sell cheaply made digital copies of real amps for the ... same price as a real amp. Seems like they are trying to pull the wool but maybe these circuit boards are really really expensive to make in China as compared to, say, a toy. Somehow I doubt this.
you could argue they have to recover development costs. If prices plummet after these costs are recovered that would demonstrate this.
But my gut says your assessment is probably spot on
@@nihilistlivesmatterit's built in to the price.knowing that's possible.
However, tone master is a tried and true product now, they know what they can expect out of it
A real full tube Bassman is over 2000 bucks though and prob weighs twice as much. The ToneMaster series exists for people who don’t want to break their back yet want an actual physical amp instead of something on the floor.
@@Fabh83 Sure I get it,,,but no transformers..no valves just a pcb & class D amp so why £1500?.... for essentially a roland blues cube
Hate to break it to you, but digital amps are also real amps. ✌️😄
I jumped into the Fender modeling world when they first came out with the Mustang series amps. They were so much lighter (and cheaper) than my Fender tube amps, and I was using some modeling software in my DAW anyway at that time. But I guess they were so cheaply made that Fender dropped support for them way too early imho. Instead they opted for a new line of Mustangs which were only questionably better(?). Support for those has waned as well. So I've experienced Fender's lack pf support for it's own products way too many times to be culled by the same game again. Fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice......become an internet troll, and research other avenues.
Man... I remember one of my first amps was a GDEC-3 lmao
@@natearchuleta2003 How about the CyberTwin, remember those? And they were like $2000 !! I think that was their very first modeler, maybe?
Short answer no. I'd pay an extra 100 for a modeling unit and just get a bassman profile on it
Yeah you can spend $200 more and get a quad cortex and have everything, including multiple studio quality captures of almost any iconic amp. Not as bad as gibson but they're definitely missing the mark with their modelers.
yeah but thats not a real bassman with direct out... and you need an frfr box
@siitan83 no you don't. Just pick up a powered speaker that's all you need.
@@SlyRyFry yeah, but I dont want every amp (+an frfrcab)... I just want the best fender. (right now owning a twinreverb - the newest version). The new bassman really gets my fingers itching
@@daniellowry660 yeah..thats what I said. Frfr speaker.. is also a speaker
The problem is with all of this digital stuff no matter how it is, is that there will be a stage where fender or whoever won’t carry on updating the software. I learned this the hard way with my Fender Superchamp x2
They don't update the software on their tube amps either.
yep, once they get it right there is no need for another update. My TM Deluxe Reverb Blonde has been a workhorse and after the last update it just works.
that is correct. An old 65 fender bassman still runs fine today, but a 2024 tone master will not be around in 70 years. Spend your money on things that last. Spend as little as possible on digital.
The industry, in general, has done a really poor job at explaining how their products work. This amp, and others just like it from different brands, have 3 parts to them. You have an analog solid state power amp, an analog solid state preamp and a digital effects section, all in one box. So, when you say "all this digital stuff", you're just talking about the effects processor. Remove the effects and you have a regular, fully analog combo amp. If you bought a multi digital effects processor, like Line 6 or Headrush, and plug it into a regular analog combo amp, you're doing the exact same thing that this amp does. All they're doing is moving the digital effects from external to internal.
Most modeling amps give you the option to bypass the internal signal processing, and plug in something external, like pedals, into the preamp directly. If you get a modeling amp with this option, (I know Line 6 Catalyst has this feature), you can use the internal processing and upgrade to better effects down the road. There's no need to buy a new amp unless you want to. Also, I know there's some confusion about this, but the only thing digital is the effects. The amp and preamp are always analog. They can't be digital. Its impossible to amplify a bunch of 1's and 0's. The signal has to be converted to analog before it gets to the preamp.
I just want to make it clear that I'm not faulting you at all. The industry is responsible for making this mess, not you.
Also, I know at some point the effects processor will stop being updated at some point. I don't see a problem with that. As long as your amp is working right now with current software, you can still use it for as long as you wish. You can still use your older versions of Xbox and PS even though they are no longer supported. Same thing with this amp.
@@t0msie Yes, but they get it right the first time; even if they don't because the "code" (schematic) is open source, built on known process, if one willing to or have some money, they can modify it, hot rod it, etc. If you want to sacrifice some stuff, change from tube rect to solidate rect. Same with "analog modelling" ala FET circuit and SANSamp clones. My Blues JR Rev B have the cathode follower mode and the reverb fix mod, without needing to get Fender involved.
Digital not only rely on algorithm mimic characteristic of an amp, they are propreitery; when it needs to be better, or maintained, you have to involve the manufacturer; if there are bugs and it's no longer maintained, there are no way to change it. You can't hot rod closed source algorthim either.
Now if they make an open source version? Maybe.
No!
If the Fender Tonemaster tech really is the top of the modelling tree (don't think it is) I'd rather have the floor unit and the FRFR for just a little bit more and have a whole lot more to choose from at my feet.
That’s what I would do as well. I use a boss floorboard and an frfr in this way.
For 1500, you can get a fully handwired boutique amp made in the UK, say the one from The Studio Rats, that can survive a nuclear apocalypse with minimal need for repair. What happens to the digital amp when the next gen dsp comes along?
You think a modern tube amp is any more reliable? You’re fooling yourself.
I can’t tell you how many tube amps I’ve had fail on me.
@@Unusednickname_1970 handwired =/= modern
aside from new valves every so often and occasional rebias they're bulletproof
@@nihilistlivesmatter not in my experience. Amp manufacturers are charging a premium for tube amps and the quality is at an all time low, unless you’re willing to spend thousands on a point to point, hand-wired amp.
Ever looked inside a modern Fender, Marshall, Vox tube amp? Garbage.
@@Unusednickname_1970 OP & I both specified handwired
@@nihilistlivesmatter fair enough. Sorry I missed that detail.
However, I think hand wired tube amps make up a very small percentage of the market. It’s just not realistic to say that they are an option for most players.
JC, absolutely loved the lead in playing. The melody at 1:30 was awesome and loved the passage at 1.55! Brilliant, watched/listened many times, now stuck in my head - that’s when you know it’s heartfelt. Cheers!
Sounds brilliant but the question is where will this amp be in 5-10 years? Probably in the rubbish
Reading through the comments, I see so many people saying pretty much the same thing as you. Your concerns are valid. However, if you look at the overall picture, this problem is not nearly as bad as you guys are making it out to be. But, I'm not faulting you in any way. The industry is at fault. I can't respond to everyone, so I'm just coping a response I just wrote for someone else. If you read through it, I think you'll find some of the information useful.
"The industry, in general, has done a really poor job at explaining how their products work. This amp, and others just like it from different brands, have 3 parts to them. You have an analog solid state power amp, an analog solid state preamp and a digital effects section, all in one box. So, when you say "all this digital stuff", you're just talking about the effects processor. Remove the effects and you have a regular, fully analog combo amp. If you bought a multi digital effects processor, like Line 6 or Headrush, and plug it into a regular analog combo amp, you're doing the exact same thing that this amp does. All they're doing is moving the digital effects from external to internal.
Most modeling amps give you the option to bypass the internal signal processing, and plug in something external, like pedals, into the preamp directly. If you get a modeling amp with this option, (I know Line 6 Catalyst has this feature), you can use the internal processing and upgrade to better effects down the road. There's no need to buy a new amp unless you want to. Also, I know there's some confusion about this, but the only thing digital is the effects. The amp and preamp are always analog. They can't be digital. Its impossible to amplify a bunch of 1's and 0's. The signal has to be converted to analog before it gets to the preamp.
I just want to make it clear that I'm not faulting you at all. The industry is responsible for making this mess, not you.
Also, I know at some point the effects processor will stop being updated at some point. I don't see a problem with that. As long as your amp is working right now with current software, you can still use it for as long as you wish. You can still use your older versions of Xbox and PS even though they are no longer supported. Same thing with this amp."
Nevertheless, even if the amp still works as a solid state amp $1500 is a lot of money for an amp that turns into an ordinary solid state amp at some inevitable point in time. M Maybe it won’t be in the rubbish but you still no longer have the amp you originally purchased
The cabs look too nice to ever throw in the bin if they die. If mine dies, I'll probably buy a tube conversion kit like Mojo Tone sells...
In 5 or 10 years people will be sliding that chassis out of that cab and installing the tube version in the cabinet
That intro is some of the most beautiful playing I have ever heard...great touch and tone....inspiring.
No kidding! The amp seems fine, but I want to jam with this dude for a while.
Sounded like digital tone to me
Dude, your playthrough toward the beginning was amazing. One of my favs I've seen you do. Fr
Do you remember Marshall’s JMD line? Launch 2010, discontinued 2 yrs later? I picked one back then when tried one in the shop alongside JMP 800 through the same cab and couldn’t hear any significant difference.
Brother i could listen to that intro tune for days...you are incredible 😎
I played and tested the Princeton Tonemaster in a local music store and I liked it quite a bit. Actually considered buying it after I had heard Zac from "Ask Zac" talking about the Tonemaster amps very positively... Then the store got a real Princeton in and wow... I can only recommend playing the Tonemaster in direct comparison to the real deal and there is a NIGHT & DAY difference. Mic'ed up it might sound close but in the room there is such a massive difference that I find the price point of a Tonemaster hard to justify. I'd rather get a Catalyst or Katana until I had saved up for the real deal.
Yep. Live is a different scenario, but in the room at home they’re really not close. I really wanted to like it too. These really are made for hauling to gigs, but as you said you could get a katana for way less and it’ll do just as well. I hate solid state amps I play a 63 brownface Vibroverb, but live the utility of the katana can’t be understated. Nobody in the crowd knows the difference regardless. Greatest $400 amp ever made imo.
Exactly
@ScottsGuitar I'd say of the gig, if it is music focused bring the tubes, but if you're background music for a party/event then bring a solid state for comfort.
But, this requires time and money.
Your comment demonstrates perfectly the misconception people have about modeling amps. The tube amp in the room SHOULD NOT sound like the modeling amp in the room with you. Put the tube amp in another room, mic it, then listen to it on a studio monitor in the room with you, and then do the comparison.
@@joeltunnah I would argue here that Fender is advertising it as an exact replica of a Tubeamp. They even put it in the same case and price it like this was the case. I own other modelers and modeling amps and would compare them the way you suggest, but Fender is puposefully marketing it as a replacement and then it should be compared in the same situations. It has nothing to do with people not understanding how to compare a modeler...
I have the Twin and Deluxe Reverb Tonemastersx - I love the sound / DI out but also the fact that they can operate as an on-stage monitor while running out direct (from the amp) to front of house. Saves buying separate monitors or powered speakers. Also really helpful in the studio - I can’t remember the last time I mic’d an amp. Don’t miss that at all.
I played the TM Twin and Deluxe Reverb yesterday for the first time. I have a real 65 (not reissue, original)... I could see playing a TM for sure because I use real and modeled stuff. But, those TM's were not the same as the real thing. You prove all the time that you can play whatever gear your playing. I could totally play models and love them. Doesn't have to be either/or. Great stuff here.
Tonemasters are different and they are very much the real things. They just have better highend sound.. every amp is different..
@@siitan83 That's the beauty of music as art, we can all decide what we enjoy. I found the highend harsh on both TM's... I would play them with the Bright switch down and mine with it up. Been a Twin player 30 years, so it could just be the two I had had a smoother high end.
John! First of all, thanks for being awesome.
Condensing a long story: I bought an HX Stomp XL in 2022 because of your content. Still have it, mostly use it at home.
Last week I got a Fender Mustang GTX100 to use as an FRFR/powered cab.
The modeling in it is pretty good! Different than Line 6 (not better or worse). I would be interested to hear your take on it compared to Fender Tone Master, Helix, and Katana.
I almost went with a Katana but the GTX came up for the right price.
I have had the Tonemaster Deluxe for years. It is a better amp than the tube counterpart. I think we need to not think of these as some sort of diluted version of the original because they aren't. They are very much an upgrade from the original amps in practically every regard AND you are getting it at a fraction of the price.
They are just as loud and good sounding. But they are also more consistent sounding, lower noise, offer a transparent attenuator that isn't even possible on the tube versions, offer an amazing direct output, far lighter weight, zero maintenance, and actually far more durable. You are getting so much more bang for your buck.
The only flaw with these amps is repairability. If you trip over, hit a knob really hard and crack the inner circuit board in 20 years from now, is that going to be as repairable as reissue tube amps? It's possible both are about equally flawed and require support from fender. The only real solution to that problem is the hand-wired versions and open source schematics, and that ups the price tag quite a lot.
$1500 for a digital modelling amp is crazy!
I am not familiar with tube amps now. The last valve amp I bought was 18 years ago (Peavey VK112).
WIth the 100w Gen 3 Katana available for 1/3 the price (and with an Effects Loop to boot), spending $1500 for Fender's equivalent makes no sense to me.
Get a Roland blues Cube. I love mine, is like fender tweed inspired and is much cheaper. Fantastic amp!!
VERY misunderstood amp that. My friend has one and it's bloody good.
couldn't agree more.
Can confirm. I have a Blues Cube Artist and it rips. Anderton's did a blindfold comparison of a bunch of tube combo amps and a Blues Cube as a wildcard. I highly recommend watching the video.
It has issues with the switching power amp repeatedly failing. I had mine replaced a few years ago and it's starting to fail again (and based on what I've seen online, I'm not the only one). Sadly Roland has also fallen into the expensive disposable amp scam.
I have the artist model and am very satisfied. I have played through many tube amps in my 67 yrs and the BC artist sounds as good at least to my ear (blues mainly) as any high end tube fender I’ve played through. Great amp imo.
Fender got it right with the TM Deluxe Reverb. I replaced my tube DRRI because it was very close to the tube version and I appreciate all the advantages of the modeler - especially the weight and power scaling. In rehearsals and gigs, I'm very happy with it.
But it looks like Fender has not done as well with the other Tone Master attempts. When I listen on CZcams to comparisons of the Twin and Super, the modelers are way off in their sound profiles - EQ, compression, breakup, etc. One might argue that the TM models still sound "good", but they fall far short of accurately simulating the originals IMO.
As I write this, there are no videos online for the new TM 59 Bassman, so the jury is out on how successful their new modeling combo is. It retails for about $2,000 USD, so it's possible that a $1,500 modeling version will find a place in the market.
I’ve owned both fender twin reverb tonemasters. I kept the cream back version. I have modelers but wanted a light straight fender amp. No frills, just a pedal platform that does the thing. I got rid of my favorite amp (fender hot Rod Deville with two eminence governors) which I liked better sound wise, but the portability and usability just made me grab a tonemaster every gig. But for me, I know my sound, and I’m tired of digging through menus to get there. Lately I’ve been using the Friedman ir-d with IR going foh and non ir going to an Orange pedal baby and open back cab. For me modelers were great to find my sound and what pedals I needed live, then I bought (in my opinion) the better real pedal versions of what I wanted. At the end of the day the crowd will never know the difference. It’s about getting the tools that work for you.
You are 100% right about the speaker and cabinet element. For a few years I had the regular Helix which I ran through an FRFR for practice and direct for gigs. But for recording I still loved my dusty but trusty JCM 800 and Fender Twin Reverb. However, as A/B style display at a local music shop about 9 months ago saw me buying the Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb. I'd have thought the "black" Twin would have been my fave but they sport Fender speakers and the black Deluxe the Jensens which are often favoured by the country guys. The blonde Deluxe however has a 12" Celestion and that made a HUGE difference to me. So now I run the Helix (effects only) straight into the blonde Deluxe and it works perfectly.... for me. It dies not need an effect loop and I can alwayd do a a virtual 4 cable methiod in=f needs be. But I find it all in line sounds best.
Of course others may/will choose differently and that's the beauty of all this. But I have to say for consistency of sound (my knackered old Twin really can have "off" days despite new valves etc with my Marshall really hating current on the Continent and especially Canada) and logistics (its so easy to carry!) it all works perfectly for me. In fact I'm looking at ditching the Helix and maybe getting the HX FX instead as it does what I'm using the Helix for but (I'm told) even better! But for home use and practice having the attenuator on the Deluxe Reverb is perfect for me. Yes, of course valves when cooking nicely sound wonderful, they always will. But this set-up just covers all bases for me, and works exactly the same every time I power up.
Really enjoying watching your vids and learning all your insite. Ive been considering a tonemaster and now after watching this i cant be more confused. Not because your video was bad, just i just dont know anymore
When the ToneMaster Deluxe came out it was brilliant. A way to have an actual amp, with all it's simplicity, volume, and character of the tube amp plus the lightness, ease, & functionality (attenuation & emulated DI) of running a model. The perfect halfway house & fundamentally the perfect pub backline amp. The 59 Bassman is & was the ToneMaster release I have been hoping for ever since. However in-between they released underwhelming things like the TM Princeton, and the TM modeler, and in that interim people like UA have made single model pedals a desirable alternative to those of us who still look at modelling as "needlessly complicated". Also in those 5 years Fender has not just gone with the offensive greedflation of pandemic profiteers the world over but, especially with amps, have exceeded the already unbearable increases. Making new Fender amps practically a nonstarter. Not only that but I'm 95% sure the release of the TM Bassman has increased the price of a new 59 Bassman (by around $500 CAD), which had been the last bastion of value in Fender's tube amp line up (because it's heavy & loud & difficult, which is why I wanted the TM version to exist). Thereby making every Fender amp more expensive than it needs to be. Which has greatly soured me to the idea of a TM Bassman existing, and to the notion of buying anything new from Fender. A thought I've had for some time.
For something I genuinely wanted 2 years ago to be such a turn off that I kinda wish it didn't exist is....not the result Fender would want to put it lightly.
Try the Roland Blues Cube if you like fender tweed vibe. I love mine and is much cheaper. Such a great amp.
@@onlyguitars When I was looking for a Tweed I ended up with a very clean 1957 Gibson GA-8. Which is Neil Young but more highs. I'm more remiss about how this Bassman should've been the 2nd tonemaster & it'd be exciting. But here we are.
Yeah, I chose a Supro Amulet over a Fender Princeton Reverb (tube version) because of the attenuation and price. I haven't played a Princeton, but I don't need to now. Sorry, not sorry Fender.
I’ve been super happy with the Tonemaster Twin and Deluxe Reverb. They sound great and the DI out is fabulous. I like that Fender has updated the firmware to give players different flavors / options to get the most out of each. Glad to see them doing more of these. Plus I don’t need a modeller to support moving between multiple amps.
Helix >fender tone master
Last TM Pro update addressed impedance issue. Such a great unit, but it is so hard for so many to admit it.
Online blind tests are kinda useless today, since the recorded quality is more or less there. It's really more about the feel when you play these things (for a longer time). And there some people (me included) still see a quite big difference.
I dug the tone you got in the beginning, was that the Tonemaster Bassman or something else? I normally always buy amps on the used market, except for a few, so I rarely spend more than 500€. For 1500€ I can get used Matchless, DR Z or Divided by 13 tube amps, so no that will be a tough call. And I'd prefer a modeller with an FRFR to a modeled amp, or even transistor amps like the DV Mark's or similar, mostly because they are very practical in size, and I can get a light cab with Neo's. The problem with modeled amps is that they are no more practical than tube amps, which I don't really like the practicality of. I do like Fender's modelling though, I used a Super Champ XD for years, and it was great.
More I think about it; I have Catalyst 100 since shortly after their release; I've upgraded to the new firmware; and it works great in 4CM with my HX-Effects for a compact versatile rig. The Catalyst 100 + HX-FX is still less than this Fender Tone Master.
The Catalyst 100 does much more, and sounds very good IMO. I'm sure the latest Boss Katana does as well compared to this Fender.
If I needed a versatile, consistent, small, lightweight amp-based rig, my Catalyst + HX-FX would be it. I can, and do, use my HX-FX with tube amps, including my Marshall Origin 50, and Mesa JP-2C.
I'm curious about the cost of repairs when a modeling amp goes out of warranty, especially if it's an issue on the circuit board. But I suppose it's not any different than Helix or a Quad that could go bad somehow.
Fender produced a great modeling amp more than 20 years ago called the Cyber Twin. However Fender intentionally did not call it a modeling amp. It used actual 12AX7 pre amp tubes and unlike today's digital amps it reconfigured it's signal path to mirror the selected model. I've had one for more than 20 years and it still sounds great. The Super Reverb setting is excellent and I have compared it to my actual Super and am still impressed. They can be bought used today for under $500.
I had a Cyber Twin about 20 years ago. I enjoyed it. Although it would take some time getting the tone and sound I wanted. I used it at gigs and the XLR out was really nice. And it was plenty loud on stage. Ended up trading it to that Guitar Big Box Store. $250 🙄 My main amp now is an HRDX 3
We’re on the same page. I use my Nextone Artist only when I don’t have much time and want to save my tubes life span. The Nextone can translate the sound of my Suhr guitars very well though. I still use pedals sometime that worth almost the value of the Nextone.
I'm keen to test/experiment how my FM3 sounds through that upcoming TM Bassman. It's already advertised (but obviously not in stock yet), in at least one Sydney store for $2100 bucks. Am sure I could knock a couple of hundred, if I decide to pull the trigger on it in Aug/Sept.
If you need a lightweight Bassman-inspired combo... the Roland Blues Cube Stage and Artist are both more versatile and less expensive new and can be had for very good prices used.
FINALLY, I would love to own a Bassman that I can actually play at home. Of course a modeler and a FRFR cab could do the same for the same amount of money AND have all the other amps. I don't know really, the answer seems obvious but a Bassman would be pretty cool
John,
Any chance you share the scale in that jam around the 1:45 mark, or tab please?
I remember the first time I saw the price tag on a Tonemaster amp and being dumbfounded by it. As someone who used to be a diehard "tube only" guy, it took me a minute to move to digital. But now I have an HX stomp. And I love it. but I don't see the point in paying 3x the price for something that does 1/100th of the things something as small as a Stomp can do.
To be fair, unless you're happy with headphones, you still need to plug the HX Stomp into a powered speaker or monitor of some kind. So an HX Stomp + something like a Yamaha HS8 is about $1050 USD. But still cheaper and more versatile than this Fender.
I will always stand by the best version of modeling/digital/dsp is quality modeling, NO cab IR, into a high headroom clean power amp that doesn't add or subtract from the modeling and finally into a guitar cab of your preference (v30's, greenbacks, 2x12, 4x12, etc...).
My gripe with FRFR is that even with the same IR - FRFR's or PA's or front of house final mix's can vary wildly based on room size, the frfr speaker itself, and the power level you're running at. A guitar cab does all of this *as well* ...BUT the guitar cab will do this, imo, the best way/predictable/ and to your liking based on the speaker selection. The cab will also get you the "amp in the room" experience since that's what's ultimately moving air anyway.
You can also play with modeling "internal volume" vs Net volume through the power amp/cab. An example of this would be a MODEL of a low power tube amp (lets say extreme like 1W or 5W) that has it preamp gain all the way but it would, in reality, be relatively low output because of the power limit...modeled through a power amp, would get you that "high gain" tone from a pushed amp to whatever volume you want based the headroom of the actual power amp.
I'm not really a fan of these modeler combo's that are modelled around an FRFR. Though I WILL say that I appreciate things like where the katanas that have tried and true IR's built specifically for their FRFR cab. The reason this matters is that your own home brew cab IR's or whatever your random modelling board can get you - the different experiences when using different FRFR's result in modeling getting a bad name, or the "cheap" feeling.
I would pay a lot of money for a transparent power amp and lots of fun cabs to run my modeler through.
Digital amp/effects, real speaker, no mic’d up sound. It’s authentic amp in the room sound with the versatility of a modeler. Why isn’t this more popular?
I'm pretty sure its going to be coming. Modeler through a power amp and a cab is the way to go. If you have a prepackaged combo or something similar I'm thinking its going to sell once people realize how much better it is than playing through an FRFR.
I've been playing my iridium rig through a behringer KXD15 keyboard amp for a couple years now and love it. Never played an FRFR but the keyboard amp sctaches my itch for the "amp in the room feel"
I did a variation of this and bought a Superblock UK that I run XLR'd into an alto busker. It's hodgepodge but my options are wide open for buying a cab or frfr or just an actual decentish PA to run XLR into.
I tried a Deluxe tonemaster in a store at low volume and it was okay, but when I used a friend's at gig volume I .missed the tube compression. I'd rather just use my Headrush if I was running digital. However, I use a Dr. Z 97% of the time or my vintage Fenders.
Omg the playing within the first couple of minutes is … just beautifully played …
The range of viewpoints on this are interesting. Modeling amps and pedals are now virtually indistinguishable from valve amps for most listeners and they're fun (I own one, it's a blast). But, most players really only play a few genres of music well. The 1X12 Roland Blues Cube Artist is one of the most highly lauded solid state amps to date and it's been around for what? Ten years? It retails today for change over $1,100.00 US. Why is it so popular, especially with pro players? It's not a Swiss Army knife modeling amp. It does a few things incredibly well. It sounds amazing at every power level, it takes pedals very well but doesn't need them, it's reliable, lightweight, and blindfolded, 99% of players can't feel or hear the difference between it and a valve amp (Go see the old Anderton's shootout on YT). If you disagree, you haven't played one. This Bassman SS amp is going to strike the same chord with players. Fender legacy tone and looks, plus plug and play simplicity. It's only a few hundred bucks more than the Blues Cube and it's got the Fender badge and old school tweed looks and vibe. And the money shot? Power attenuation. I can play it in my bedroom/office and turn up the power and piss off the entire neighborhood. Assuming they got the tones figured out, It'll sell well to older hackers who can afford it and gigging pros who like the Fender tone but are tired of the weight, hassle, and expense of tube amps.
I tried the TM Deluxe R at the local Guitar Shop and was surprised by how good it sounded. I bought it, took it home, and started playing and comparing it to my Tube DR.
Shortly after that I took both to a local gig for some of the local pro's to play. They all came back with the same opinion. They wanted to hate the ToneMaster, but it seemed fine and they really could not tell which amp they were playing through. I sold my Tube DR and have run the TM ever since. I am interested in the Bassmen TM, but at $1500.00 the profit margin is too high. I don't NEED it.
I sold my tube DR after getting a Tonemaster DR and haven't looked back. The only thing I felt was missing was the reverb, but an Oceans 11 pedal took care of that. My back really appreciates it too.
How much did you smoke before recording this?
I have always been a Fender Twin fan and I still own a tube version. A year ago I got a new Tonemaster Twin for less than $900 and I love it. Everything I love about a twin without the weight and tube maintenance. In fact, I struggle daily on whether to sell the tube version. However, $1500 is too much. If Fender sold these amps at around $800 they would not be able to make enough of them and would literally take over the market IMO.
You're asking us at the very beginning if it's a tube amp or a modeller and you put delay on your sound..................!
I love my TM deluxe. My favorite amp ever. Great breakup sound. I find having the volume high and using an ovedrive as a boost works much better than clean and using a pedal as ur dirty channel. Perhaps the real one is better but at the price and weight I would never do it. I play in a band, those features like weight and a line out really matter alot
I would never pay £1500 for a digital amp 😅
5 years ago I found my 1973 Fender Bassman Ten Silverface housed in a custom 1x12 combo enclosure and I put a Eminence Swamp Thang speaker in, and took out the Jensen that was in there.
Sounds absolutely huge and the amp cost me £500 at the time, then spent another £300 getting it serviced and up to running reliable gigging standard, I bought a Fender Ltd edition Hot Rod Deluxe in Wine Red (early 2000s model) few weeks ago on eBay for £325, mint condition as new, the guy I got it off bought it new and it never left his house and barely played. Happy days 🤙
But my 73 Bassman Silverface just wipes the floor with anything else.
Better get a FM3 and a Fender FR12. You get ALL the best amps, and drives, and effects with superb quality
Exactly what I was thinking
Well it depends where the retail price is coming from. How much of the price is the research and production, and how much is the markup? For example, if it costs them $300 to make and they're selling it for $1500, that's obviously not worth it. It also depends how much you value ethics, as you *can* buy a product for much cheaper, but it's probable that the workers are worked like dogs and paid like crap.
I wouldn't buy a tube amp, because solid state can sound just as good, requires less maintenance, and is cheaper. And on the opposite end, when it comes to modelling amps and floor units, not everyone wants option paralysis. Some people just want to plug in and go. If this amp is made well, doesn't have an insane markup, sounds good, is loud enough to gig with, and is built to last, then the price just may be justified for some people.
I'm one of those plug and play guys, I have a pedal board, I brought a gx100 and just keep a crunchy edge of break up tone for practice on the sofa with headphones, bassman is my dream amp but for half the price I could buy a silver jubilee and an attenuator, choices, choices
@@pads-zr9ln Yeah I just have a Peavey Bandit and it works for me. I was running a bunch of pedals but went back to basics and am happy with the results. I'm sure if I recorded it the way it's set up now, no one would know or care that it's a solid state combo.
Digital amps are getting very good & I’d use one live or in studio. However, not at this price … I want tubes at this price.
I’d love to see their margins between the 65 twin reissue and the tone master version
I’d say go with a katana and replace the speaker myself. Put a nice Weber in there, I’d do that over the tonemaster for value/sound ratio
Curious what year your Gibson 335 is.
11:34 I agree with you 100%. I'm new to modelling, but not new to gear. I recently got the FR-12 and Tonex1 to see what I thought. I am in love with it. I would personally not pay the $1500 for the new Fender.
I have the Fender FR12 since January and rotate the two rigs I run through it: Boss IR-2 with pedalboard and a Ampero 2 Stage.
I'm very happy with this FR12 considering nearly every Fender amp I've tried, I either returned or sold.
Nothing beats the Boss Katana.
...in that price range. Agreed.
@@sjohnson4985 It also beats amps that are way more expensive. It's not a one-trick-pony.
Can you do a video on EVH 5150 Iconic?
The fender mustang GTX 100 is a modeling amp that has been out for years. @ $600 it's not bad.
Love the mustang GTX100❤
IMHO The difference between tube and modeling amps like a Fender Tone master is in the volume. Tube amps respond better at higher volumes when playing with other musicians in a live setting. In my experience tube amps and modeling amps can sound very similar at lower volumes but when they are pushed harder tube amps open up beautifully and naturally. I use both for different reasons. Thanks for another thought provoking video JNC.
Did Fender hire the Boss team that created the Boss Waza 150 Amp? /S
I guess if this amp covers everything you need, and you don't have to worry about tubes...I'm in the process of healing my '76 Fender Super Twin, and I'm not an amp tech... so the convenience and consistency of digital could be valuable to some.
I spent around $1500 to build my computer software rig for guitar - for the hardware, not including the price for the software plugins; I did have some of the components already. It's a a 2U rack soft carry case; just connect the power cable and audio interface stereo outs and it's ready to go - quick, easy, versatile, and I can easily add plugins, or memory, or replace components when needed.
While I have several guitar plugins (Neural Plini X, Henson, Petrucci, Mesa IIc+ Suite; Helix Native, Softube Marshall Amp Room,...to name a few) I finally built this computer rig because of PolyChrome DSP - McRocklin Suite plugin - which is about 95% of my sounds / patches.
So they finally did it? Interesting but as someone who is getting the TM Princeton in mere days that msrp is a tough one.
Sure a lot of research and development goes into these amplifiers but personally I am tired of solid-state amps doing hundreds of things etc.
Think the jack of all trades master of none argument. Solid state amps in my view try to do TOO much and it can be dizzying.
Never mind the nightmare if software doesn’t work or isn’t intuitive.
I don’t want an amplifier that does 100s of different things perhaps.
I want what the tone master line has to offer and I have for several years now.
I just wish they had a lower price point overall.
I’ll gladly use my own board and forgo built in effects while emulating ONE thing as close as can be to valve tech and I’m happy hence the TM line.
The built in attenuation is just plain brilliant.
I am glad they seem to be straying a smidge and added an Fx loop to this one.
The truth is people want stuff that’s expensive if some company came out with a hand wired tube amp built exactly like a deluxe for 500 bucks it wouldn’t sell
that short clip on the pedal show they sound the same but the tone master was louder ...
I love my Blonde Deluxe reverb Tone master amp. It is on point and extremely good. Although, i wish it would have had an effect loop. That being said, it is better and sounds better than any other "modeling" amp.
I'll stick with the 5F6A Bassman clone I built several years ago, thank you very much. 😊
These amps hit the market at a time everyone was worried about being able to get good quality replacement tubes. And prices for tubes went crazy. A quad of EL34s is like $150 now. There's something appealing about paying everything up front and not worrying about maintenance costs.
For me at least, I see this as an alternative for studios or old blues guys who want THE Bassman amp but half the weight and cheaper than a tube one. It's not for most of us at home. With that in mind the price isnt too crazy
Katana head plus the Fender FR cab sounds like a better plan!
The intro is 👌
Thanks for posting this video. I wouldn’t invest in any digital amp period. I know that most would argue that digital has come a long way but nothing can replicate the feel of playing through an all tube amp for me. Any digital amp will eventually have obsolete discontinued parts also. A simple tube amp will always be serviceable. Provided tubes are still being made of course 😂
thats why im stockpiling tubes. the tube shortage is coming
Is it a little overpriced? Probably. 12-1300 would be the sweet spot. Regardless, it’s a great idea. I’ll check one out for sure.
The modeling needs to be absolutely top tier with multiple incarnations of the same amp (different vibes/mods) for me to even consider something at that price range. Otherwise I'd just get a Helix.
This one has real alnico speakers, no? I imagine that's a decent chunk of price.
If they put out a mkii twin with loop I'm buying though 😂. I really wanted these to have as a powered option. Fr12 is neat but still would like that amp look
You get a whole amp world in the digital domain for that amount of money. Fender is trying to capitalise on the legendary reputation of their classic amp models. Whoever needs a one trick pony with the Fender plate on it, feel free to buy.
In another room, nobody could spot tonex from an amp. You can only tell if your in the room with the amp through a real cab (which does impart to your playing, the latency also even if you can't perceive it right off). The recorded sound is pretty stellar these days. I wouldn't buy a $1500 digital one trick pony.
Nothing does the physics and how it imparts a little sauce to your playing like a tube amp. I own several high end amps (not fender clean amps though so maybe it's different). The recorded tones are stellar for a modeler these days. People sometimes spend more time on their actual amps tone when they do the a vs b recordings.
You can make them indistinguishable for a HECK of a lot less than 1500 bucks.
1500 bucks is a real stellar fender "tube" amp. Not a digital recreation imho.
Sure… if they used Origin Effects circuitry, or maybe, MAYBE something designed by UAFX. I had the Super Reverb, and… the reverb was not as good as it should have been, especially since there were already existing digital reverbs on the market that sounded significantly better.
The key here is "If it sounds good it is good". The modelling amps aren't a perfect duplication although the Tonemasters are close, but they sound really good on their own. I'm a Helix user (along with a Marshall DSL40CR and a Fender DRRI) and they all sound brilliant on their own merits. We spend so much time trying to A-B them that we miss that you can get great tone from each! Oh, and no, I wouldn't buy a 1 trick modeler for $1500. I would definitely grab a Helix or Quad Cortez at that value and have all the amps!
1.5k for a made in china digital amp is a hard pass for me. and I just paid 2.5k for their handwired 57 deluxe.
If going solid state (or digital) I will always go with something like Quilter.
I’m not buying a 4 by 10 at any price no matter what tech is involved. The price seems reasonable within their lineup considering that it is $500 less than their 59 Bassman. And I do really appreciate the simplicity of the Tone Master amps. But, yeah, for me a solid-state analog amp and a pedal-sized modeler has makes more sense.
While I like the Fender Tone Master amps, they are just WAY TOO expensive when compared to the Boss Katana, or even the more expensive Boss Nextone series. Boss amps are capable of attaining the same tone as Fender, and much more. Also consider that no matter what amp I plug into, I'm going to adjust the controls to match the sound in my head-- which I can do on ANY amp. Grew up with tube amps, and quite like them when they're working properly and when I don't have to carry them. Quite fond of Fender in general, but folks at Fender Corp. have lost their minds recently ;)
I really think the weight and straightforward nature of the amp are the selling points. Grandpa Joe wants a 1:1 of his old Fender amp but stuggles to lift an 80lb bassman. Doesn't want to look at any digital Tamagotchi screens.
Honestly this whole time I thought the Tonemaster amps had honest all analog solid state preamps going on. That'd be way, way cooler if they did.
I'll stick with my JC40 for myself though.
One day JHS is going to reveal his secret stash of katana and next tone amps he is the biggest boss pedal fan
This price doesn’t make me jump. It seems like if these were priced around where a Hot Rod Deluxe hits the market it might be tempting but I’ve felt like the whole Tonemaster series is way over priced for what it is.
Well, before I listen to the video; I’d like to say, that I’ve thought the same thing as your thumbnail, ever since I read about the Toneworks Amps.
When I heard them, I thought Fender had lost it.
Yet, they sold many of those overpriced amps. People sell them used.
They aren’t even supposed to mimic, the very amps that they’re named for!
I was told this, by a Fender rep. 😆
*forgot. Sure, the amp can work for a live show, but one can get the tube amp, or one that can sound better/same, for about the same price.
I can easily get more usable tones, out of a Katana.
I'd buy a Roland Blues Cube instead! Or stick with my Katana, nothing wrong with it at all, sounds as good as most valve amps once you know what you're doing!
I kinda see the appeal, having a modeller is great but can give you option paralysis... So the straightforward option, i.e a traditional amp is fine.
Pros and cons with it being digital are gonna be subjective to personal preferences but heck, if folk are happy to pay 2/3k for a valve combo then paying 1500 for this doesn't seem that ghastly. 4 speakers, attenuator, effects loop.
Solid, imo.
I feel like, when referring to value, you kind of missed an opportunity to talk about resale value, which is a huge aspect of a purchase.
You've mentioned it before, but one of the big problems with digital vs. analog gear is that your digital purchase, generally, starts to depreciate immediately. Conversely, tube amplifiers generally tend to either hold or appreciate in value.
Line 6 has done a great job continually updating their products, but in 20 years, no one will want to pay what you paid for your Helix, but they'll pay every bit what you paid for a tube amp, or more.
That Tonemaster may be okay for now, but just like CGI in movies, it's a snapshot of where Fender's technology is right now. So, when it inevitably gets better, and you wanna sell your Tonemaster, good luck getting anything remotely like what you paid for it.
That's when it becomes a donor cab for a clone kit amp!
Honestly I bought a used Fender Princeton that had an Alnico Gold speaker for less than this. I'm happy.
for 1500, isnt it just better to get the ToneMaster Pro unit.? Im sure its gonna have a Bassman model in there. its supposed to be the same kind of quality/technology
All that digital stuff... even the solid state stuff continues to go down in value with time. Tube stuff may have its issues, but it's a better investment.
In the end you state that for the money (1500) you could get an actual fender tube amplifier?? I dont get it, when for the money -1500 you could get an actual tonemaster bassman... thats a nobrainer for me - And i own a twinreverb, (the newest version by fender) - tonemaster ofcourse
So we finally get the bassman.
All that matters is that you can get the tone you're looking for at a suitable volume for your environment, without breaking your back or budget. I think the Tonemaster series are overpriced compared to other digital or solid state amps, but as long as people pay for the name on the box, Fender will keep asking for a premium price.
Whatever the case, you really can't use a quad box in a small house or unit block.
i have the real deal bassman, i also have the real deal dlx reverb, i also had a tonemaster dlx reverb, it sounded ok, i gigged with it, but it does not sound like the real deal. the lite weight was good, but i think the problem is when they go down u cant repair it, ur left with an expensive spkr cab, i sold mine after a few years, put the money on another tube amp