Cleric, Life Domain and Subclasses | Unearthed Arcana: Cleric and Revised Species | One D&D
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UNEARTHED ARCANA 2022 CLERIC AND REVISED SPECIES
This document is the third in a series of Unearthed Arcana articles that present material designed for the next version of the Player’s Handbook. The material here uses the rules in the 2014 Player’s Handbook, except where noted. Providing feedback on this document is one way you can help shape the next generation of D&D! Inside you’ll find the following content:
Cleric Class. The Cleric Class is available for playtesting, along with one Subclass: the Life Domain. More Subclasses will appear in Unearthed Arcana in the months ahead.
Revised Species. Three revised Species appearin this document: the Ardling, the Dragonborn, and the Goliath.
Rules Glossary. In this document, any term in the body text that is underlined appears in a glossary at the end. The glossary defines game terms that have been clarified or redefined for this playtest or that don’t appear in the 2014 Player’s Handbook.
THIS IS PLAYTEST MATERIAL
This article is presented for playtesting and feedback. The material here is experimental and is in draft form. It isn’t officially part of the game. Your feedback will help determine whether we adopt it as official.
HOW TO PLAYTEST THIS MATERIAL
We invite you to try out this material in play. When you do so, you’re welcome to combine this article with the “Character Origins” (August 2022) and “Expert Classes” (September 2022) articles.
If you do combine this article with any previous one, use only the rules glossary found
here. In the One D&D Unearthed Arcana series, the rules glossary of each article supersedes the glossary of any previous article.
To play with this material, you may either incorporate it into your campaign or run one or more special playtest sessions. For such a session, you may create an adventure of your
own or use a short adventure from a source like Journeys through the Radiant Citadel or
Candlekeep Mysteries.
#onednd #dnd #dungeonsanddragons
I really like the standardized 3 - 6- 10 14 level structure for sub classes features
Now you can multiclass 10-10 or 6 14 and not losing subclasses features thanks to this structure
Also if you want the 18 lvl mega class feature you can dip 2 lvl max, so this means that you can't take a subclass with your second class if you want to unlock the 18 level features
very neat and tight numbers, good work! i really hope you don't change this!
Yeah, I think it's PERFECT
I mean, that's great in theory. But those theories all require level 20 characters. And how many players even get a character to level 20, let alone play past level 20 long enough for those things to really matter.
@@NessOnett8 you are correct, but we are talking about the structure of multiclassing, i don't know if the general low level preference of the public mean somethin in this regard.
It's like criticize complex math because majority of people don't have an academic career
For those that like to customize their characters it's sad news but it is a much more simplified version. I prefer the diversity and customization options over making it more accessible to new players, especially considering how for many classes (like warlock), subclasses being postponed to 3 doesn't make narrative sense.
And someone brought up a good point, most games don't make it very high level. That means even fewer multiclassing builds will actually be achieved if the system is made to force 1, 2, 3+ additional levels into classes to achieve your desired combinations. And it's not [as] fun playing a character that hasn't reached the build you want yet. This will increase the amount of time spent playing ineffective or feeling underpowered. I appreciate the intent but as someone who loves making complex builds that fit the character just right, this is a sad change.
Mechanically I think subclass 3 is a good idea, but it does put Cleric (and sorcerer and warlock) in this same weird boat as paladin was where okay but what even are you those first 2 levels? If you're defined by taking an oath/serving a god/serving a patron/being made magical by some specific fantastic event, what does that mean for you to have powers when you haven't done that yet? How is one generically cleric? Why do prophets of meager strength manifest exactly the same regardless of faith?
I like to think the cleric serves their god during the first two levels but doesnt gain the Deity's attention or power until they are stronger.
i like to think that at level 3 your faith or your proficiency in that art is strong enough that your deity grants the power now that you can handle it. so the first two levels can be seen as a novice of sorts still improving their arts. Or can be taken as your will/faith strengthens you get up to that point where your deity notices and grants you those abilities or the knowledge on them.
The way I think about it is you get your spells and base features, but your faith is still being tested before your deity of worship grants you unique powers
@Isaiah Evans,
That’s probably how it will be framed in my world.
Anyone can gain some basic divine miracle if they have enough faith/training/etc. There’s enough ambient divine energy for first level casters.
In order to progress to higher level miracles the cleric needs to attune themselves to a specific domain and god that aligns with their belief set. This unlocks second level and higher spell slots as well as spells and abilities unique to their god and domain.
I've always felt like that about paladins, like they're just a guy before taking their oath really. And if we're flavoring cleric as just serving their god before they're chosen, then what really sets them apart from any other worshipper of the same god? Then everyone would just have two levels of cleric. Seems a bit odd. I'm even more concerned for sorcerer and warlock. How can you have a warlock that doesn't have a pact for 2 levels? That's literally how they get their magic? Same with sorcerers really. Gives me a major amount of pause.
This Divine spark really reminds me of the older editions where you could substitute out any spell with either a heal or a harm spell.
Reminds me of Channel Positive/Negative Energy from Pathfinder
@@Zaros2400 Pathfinder is derived from D&D 3.5 edition, in which clerics could convert any prepared spell into a healing spell if they were good, or a harm spell if they were evil.
I got the same vibe. The Smite Undead feature reminds me of the variant rule for Turn Undead that was originally in the 3.5 Ravenloft adventure and then revised and printed in the Complete Divine book. It was nice dealing 1d6 per cleric level.
I was skeptical of the subclass at level 3 change, however the options added and new class features progression is really good, adding more value to the cleric itself. I've been feeling for a while that the options warlocks have had would be great in other classes, now with the holy orders
I think it's better. It's beginner friendly now that the subclasses are no longer frontloaded, and subclasses are no longer an easy-to-acquire power boost (looking at you Hexblade).
@@TheCrimsonElite666 agree with you there. i love to power build but im an rp guy at heart and so many things felt like building mechanics instead of a character
I'm OK with it on a cleric, but a sorcerer should absolutely level
Ya it’s totally a level dipping nerf, disguised to be new player friendly mechanics. Lol the egg shell he walked that through.
Good change though, now make character death more deadly.
@@goontubeassos7076 lmao, level dipping nerf is a GOOD thing, we want less things to be so unabashedly dippable.
I kinda like the new cleric orders. I’ve wanted to play a more caster focused white mage style Life Cleric before but felt like I was underutilizing it due to the heavy armor front line focus. It gives some good variety.
I like it to. But I dislike the 9Th level feature. I prefer a deeper aprouch to the order than select another order.
One level splash of cleric for heavy armor, martial weapon, cantrips, spells and all sorts of deity goodies was too good. Not as good as a splash of hexblade but second best probably.
It would be a two level splash for the Holy Order. I guess to make it on par with Action Surge (?).
Peace 1/Wizard X was such a painful combo.
i really like the orders, now your subclass doesn't "lock you" into a specific role of spellcasting or defender, but obviously everyone will pick either Thaumaturge or protector at level 2 for the specific build, and scholar at 9th level for extra utility.
i still don't like the removal of spell lists.
Also Goliath is cool af now, having the ability to choose your giant heritage and gaining fitting abilities is something i never knew i wanted until now
Yeah, I really like that feature.
The new Goliaths make me wanna create like pseudo-Rune-Knight Rogues or Warlocks-so awesome
I think the frost giant option is a little strong - being able to reduce an enemy's speed by 10 ft every time you hit a creature is really sick, but it is pretty strong. Regardless though the fact that they're getting love from Wotc is great. One of my favorite races.
@@snazzyfeathers it's not every time you hit, it's PB per long rest
@@xogdo5260 There's a limit tied to your proficiency bonus yes, but you can choose to use it when you land a hit. Instead of once per turn you can use it when you land a hit which in my opinion is a bit strong. Reminds me of the warlock's invocation to reduce someone's speed with eldritch blast
I'd love to see some talk about how this can be made backwards compatible with recently released WOTC and with 3rd party material.
"remaking every subclass" is definitively *not* backwards compatible.
You aren't really thinking of it right. By backwards compatible, they mean a "new" OD&D character can play side by side with a 5e character and mechanically it all works. You are free not to like that of course, but there's no reason why you can't mix and match characters from both versions in a single party and have it work just fine.
I believe they were talking primarily about One D&D being backwards compatible with the adventure books.
@@eliaslovell5038 they specifically called out supplements as well
@@andrewshandle That's an interesting assessment that I hadn't considered...
In that case, those one-level Hexblade dip multiclasses aren't off the table until they *specifically* remake the Hexblade.
These changes have me cautiously optimistic for changes to wizards to make them as interesting and diverse as sorcerers and warlocks.
They always were.
I love to play sorcerers and wizards. They are my most played classes alongside artificer.
I personally found that Wizards had already been more versatile than Sorcerers but required much more effort to be so.
But in terms of the "interesting" factor, I agree that sorcerers are better off. I like Wizards because I love to min-max, but they definitely feel like most of the wizard subclasses make the characters feel like number-grinding utility machines. There is very little "flavor" in most Wizard subclasses. Artificers and Sorcerers have many skills and abilities they can use creatively for roleplay in comparison to Wizards.
Wizard subclasses have very few features because wizards are already have enough power and variety with their spells alone.
"I felt a great disturbance in the Force. As if a few hundred min-max'rs suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced."
Eliminating the reasons for single level dips is a noble goal
Channel divinity is completely linked to your PB. A 1 lvl dip now makes any class a great healer & it also scales.
Still an amazing option for min Max dipping
Until Ranger gets scaling features for tier 4, 90% of my Ranger builds will multiclass into Cleric or Druid already anyway. I can still min-max to hell and back with the massively frontloaded OneDnD Ranger into Scholar Cleric and then be a better utility character than the Rogue.
"Min-Maxers…uh…find a way"
This won't stop anything, it's just like shaking up the meta
Even if I end up preferring old 5E clerics, I feel like this would be a great version of cleric for new players who have never played such a magic focused class before. But i get the feeling most experienced players who know how cleric works, would rather go straight into there subclass at level 1 so they can build there character around it more.
I suspect that many tables start at 2nd level anyways and you get to third relatively quickly so I wonder how impactful this will be in practice.
@@jacoboblanco1555 yeah it seems mostly like a multi class nerf
@@jacoboblanco1555 True, except for one, all games I have ever played in started at 3.
I don't think there's usually a lot of reason to start earlier if you don't have new players or don't want to start very gritty.
I LOVE the Holy Order idea as a separate selection portion and would enjoy seeing this for each class whether a full caster, half-caster, 1/3 caster or Barbarian!
Bard - Muse| Dancing(Martial Training), Music(Larger Bardic die), Poetry(Expertise-Like)
*Cleric - Holy Order| Protector, Scholar, Thaumaturge*
Druid - Primal Order| Guardian(AC=10+Con+Wis), Hermit(Expertise-Like), Shaman(better healing)
I'd say the swap for the cleric subclass from level 1 to 3 is a good idea.
I think they are trying to standardize the subclasses choice
@@robertoalejandroorozco3503 what do you mean? that all classes do the same thing? or that everyone chooses the same subclass?
@@Markcrazeer that all subclasses come at 3rd level
I'm just intrigued on what this is gonna mean for the Warlock
Prevents a lot of dumb multiclass dips, and then also means the entire table powers up and increases in complexity at once, instead of sort of randomly between 1, 2, and 3
The changes done to cleric here make me very hopeful for the future warlock changes, that on top of the specific mention of potential changes to eldritch blast. Hopefully the warlock becomes the true cantrip-slingin' god it deserves to be.
I agreed, I'm. Just worried about sorcerer, which should be 1st level
Fair point, though they might introduce a different way to have that flavor
@@mcullennz Yeah, like thematically sorcerers, warlocks and clerics should gain their subclass at 1st level because they are about what they are and with what spell vendor they have bought into.
But there's no real reason as to why they couldn't just develop/be granted that more specific set of abilities later.
These are exactly the changes needed for the cleric, in particular divorcing the armor/weapon proficiencies from the portfolio/domain and opening up design space for either more martially-oriented or scholarly style clerics. Good stuff.
Not sure about the flavor of waiting until 3 for cleric subclass, but the multi-classing problem I’ve observed extremely common. This is definitely helping the grimy power gamer problem that something happens with classes with 1st level subclasses
my stance is yes cleric no sorcerer and warlock. for clerics the specialization does not necessarily have anything to do with the god, I would encourage my player to pick something in their god's portfolio but if you want to be a life cleric of the god of death decay and undeath go for it, but for sorcerer and warlock their subclass is tied into their background. your patron is the creature you have made a contract with. you cant just shop around for patrons for days before settling on a patron, same with sorcerer, your sorcerous origin is your origin, you need to have some form of explanation for what you can do beforehand. are you a draconblood do you have wild magic etc. it is all fundamental, you cant just run around as a 1st or second level with no clue what you are dealing with.
I think it makes sense.
Start as a noob cleric then prove your devoutness to your god to gain a subclass as a result.
It's the same as a Paladin.
And if they do this for the warlock and sorcerer too the flavor is there too.
Warlocks sell their soul to a minor being for a time then to a higher being for the subclass. The minor being may even be a subordinate to the higher being.
Sorcerer you become aware of your innate magic power and then later learn the true potential of your genetic magic with a subclass.
It also makes sense for warlocks or even sorcerers. The first are not getting everything good from the patron in the one go and sorcerers have to figure out what is this weird magic stuff that is going on with them.
@@Plasmagon99this way of thinking would push me to want to play a sorcerer or warlock. Nice thought.
@Plasmagon
You hit the nail on the head for how sorcerers and warlocks could work.
For warlocks at level 1 and 2 you gain the basic ability to cast first level spells + probably something they’ll add. Theoretically you already know who your patron is, but they don’t grant you any overly specific powers to level 3. Not being able to take on your patron’s ghostly visage with form of dread until level 3 doesn’t ruing the fluff.
For sorcerer you have some magic power which you may or may not know the source of, but it doesn’t manifest in a distinctive way until level 3. For instance with dragon sorcerer I don’t think waiting to level 3 to grow scales destroys the fluff.
I don't like how the cleric is getting the subclass and its channel divinity feature nerfed all the way down to 3 and 6. All just so I can get one extra cantrip? Other cleric subclasses already give you proficiency with martial weapons immediately. Not a fan at all. Luckily 5e content will always be available.
Standarizing classes so that all of them get an extra feature at the same time is very boring. It's the same thing that happened to me with world of warcraft, make everything the same so it's easier to balance... yeah no, I would rather have everybody be different and unique
Would still prefer if we just got the first five levels of all classes, but I am excited for the cleric. Already a very solid and balanced class. Also, you should have a link to the playtest in the description!
Maybe they changed it already, but there is a link to the playtest in the description, now.
It seems Cleric only got buffed when it’s already one of the best classes in the game. I thought they would tune down the damage clerics can do and give them more utility.
@@floofzykitty5072 they did nerf it. Read the new spell descriptions. The nerfs are hidden in the spells.
Spiritual Weapon requires Concentration. Aid is now temp hp. Etc.
@@floofzykitty5072 Spiritual Weapon got a big nerve: It requires concentration now. So no more Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians at the same time any more.
If martials do an appropriate amount of more dmg, I'll be glad about the Clerics dmg.
@@floofzykitty5072 cleric is one of the most solid classes in the game. I think them and paladins probably need the least change. Separating out armor/spellcasting/skill focus from subclass is a phenomenal idea; they were arbitrary in many cases already. Though as someone else points out, the spell nerfs might hurt cleric considerably. We will have to see.
Here is where compatibility with older resources and 5e starts to fade.
I kinda already fell in the last UA (experts). At this point I made my peace that adventures, modules and some setting stuff would be compatible, most everything else will not
Always was gonna. People were joking themselves.
I honestly don’t care if the game is improved.
@@snoochieboochies2011 good thing 5e still will exist.
Full backwards compatibility was being tossed out the door from 1st playtest where the monsters can't crit made one or grave cleric features obsolete.
I have to dig in more but overall I see stuff I like. I will say that it does irk me that the design is going more towards proficiency bonus instead of wisdom modifier. I still stand by that proficiency bonus should MOSTLY be something used for races and feats outside of its normal use, and classes should get 1/rest, 1/day, or key ability mod per rest or day
I like the mechanics of moving the subclass from 1st to 3rd level but the flavor is very confusing, it's kinda funky to have this divine power and devotion but not knowing where exactly it comes from yet
Every cleric/priest goes to a generic seminary to learn Gen Ed stuff and then later chooses their major . . . /s
Agreed. I feel like some classes (the Sorcerer and Warlock in particular) need to have their subclass options at 1st level, otherwise the whole class fantasy feels off... It seems very strange to just be a "generic priest" for the first few levels.
My take is that they worship a diety but they are influenced by an aspect of the diety. A follower of Ares going for Life Domain because Ares protects life through battle. Maybe? I don't know.
maybe your character knows where it's coming from, but the relationship is still forming so you don't have anything specific for your domain yet.
@@Joe-gb3lu you and your god still in a casual friends with benefits stage of things. Can't rush these things.
This philosophy to character creation and subclasses will be changing the spellcasters a lot who have to choose at 1st or 2nd level. Much needed if you ask me for the reasons Jeremy stated though.
Man it’s hard to get players to heal. It’s going to be even harder with cleric nerfs. Not sure why you’d discourage that.
That's because healing in 5e is generally not powerful enough to negate incoming damage. It becomes a triage situation where you hold on to healing spells to pick people up off the ground. Healing word and cure light wounds just don't do enough to make them useful for anything else once you are past 3rd level.
@@One01Zero only the heal spell for 70 hp is kinda good healing.
Because DnD isn't an mmo and doing nothing but pumping heals into your tank isn't fun for anyone but the tank. If you try to out heal every damage that your party takes you'll run out of spell slots VERY fast and you won't be able to get them back up when they eventually go down . A cleric that casts spirit guardians and spiritual weapon to end a combat sooner and brings down allies up with a single spell is much more useful than a cleric who wastes all their spell slots upcasting cure wounds.
There's hit dice for people to top themselves up between combats. Clerics work better when they buff before combats and when they help bring people back up after combats. During the combat itself, it's much better to focus on ending it as fast as possible.
@@Bidniss. they can't do SW and SG anymore. SW is now a concentration spell for some reason :(
@@haerdalis84 that's true, I hadn't read that part yet haha. It'll lower their damage output but let's be honest, spiritual weapon should've probably been concentration to begin with. A weaponized bonus action that doesn't require you to put yourself in danger with a reliable damage type is very much a contender for concentration.
Love that they are equalizing all subclasses to being 3rd level. Feels good for maintaining parity between players and honestly, i wont shed a tear for 1-2 munchkin level dips
Even without the subclasses 1 to 2 levels of Fighter, paladin, warlock, and artificer still provide a near infinite amount of munchkin fuel. Hell, half the full casters give a ridiculous amount of tricks for just 2 levels if you know your spells.
@@CitanulsPumpkin For now.
@@cloudstone123 so your solution to the problem of people having fun, is to take away the toys?
@@dynestis2875 When the toys have defects, you replace them with new ones to let the fun continue.
1-2 level dips can be great for flavor. Just because some people use it to be stronger means everyone should lose that freedom?
Subclass to 3 isn't that big a deal to me, but unique Channel Divinity to 6 is really late for the defining feature of the subclass to even appear. Going through all of tier 1 close to subclasseless really makes low levels and progressing from 1 suck.
At least you still get core channel divinity at lvl 1
@@AssortedJade I mean you do, but it's a really basic feature and rather redundant at higher levels. It's just more action heals or action damage, which cleric already had plenty of. It just gives you a discount on some spell slots.
As a DM, I love standardizing subclasses (or class-defining features) at level 3. Good for new players, good for limiting cheese.
How is that good?
"Species" makes much more sense than calling it "Race", though technically half-orc and half-elf mean that Human, Orc and Elf are the same species. (Unless half-whatever can't reproduce, like real life Donkey+Horse=Mules.)
There are examples of hybrids between species that can reproduce
Shame they didn't also use the term Ancestry from Pathfinder 2e. I think that makes the most sense as a catch-all term
I'm open to seeing the changes before criticizing them, but I've always liked subclasses at first level because lots of them are really gameplay defining. Playing 2 levels that can be completely unrelated to how you play after choosing your subclass has never felt particularly good to me
Waking up on my birthday to discover that my favourite class is the new UA! 🎉
But do you like the UA is the question?
@@dynestis2875 I haven’t read it yet but based on the described changes in this video, it sounds like a series of unambiguously good improvements imo
(If i’m honest it might be a bit heavy-handed, cleric is already lowkey one of the most potent classes in 5E)
Happy birthday!
I always make dips in other classes to fill out character themes andd flavor. Dnd is very limited on classes and a LOT of archetypes aren’t supported so we need to make small dips in order to build those themes. I feel they will lose a lot of players that aren’t power gamers but like to make exotic classes and aren’t interested in playing the basic lineup. It’d be very heart breaking to have to delve deeply into a multiclass and be weak, useless, and themeless for most levels in order to build a particular concept, just bc there are 3 or 4 POSSIBLY really strong multiclass builds that none of which are as strong as certain other single class builds
Thanks for finally fixing the Long Rest rules. They are very clear now.
Agreed a d they struck a nice balance as the old one had combat completely making you restart. This new version still has a detriment of there's an Interuption but it's not a full reset
Love the new Goliath options, but I would change Cloud Giant heritage to a levitate effect. Too many Elf lineages Misty Stepping, I want something a little different for Goliath.
Cleric is my favorite class. I've always felt that starting out with your subclass and deity chosen right out the gate, like the warlock, makes the class feel unique.
Although I can understand how this choice might be burdensome to new players, I think it's a great starting point for player engagement with world-building (Forgotten Realms, homebrew, or any setting) to learn their deity directly at character creation.
I also feel as though this design decision to make character creation easier by delaying one's subclass choice is contradicted somewhat by the new powerful background feats, which I understand are broadly popular. Further, the decision to tie former subclass features to Holy Order at 2nd level (Protector, Scholar, Thaumaturge) makes the choice of one's subclass/domain/deity less impactful or unique, and I personally feel like it homogenizes the class as a whole. I.E. No longer will War, Tempest, etc be where you can gain your heavy armor proficiencies, etc. Effectively, your choice of subclass is less meaningful.
I'll also come out and say that I'm a fan of the odd one level "dip" into cleric not only for the RP flavor of tying my character to a deity, but access to first level concentration spells, and armor/weapon proficiencies. Subclass choice is honestly a minor factor in the choice of multiclassing cleric-- the notoriously overpowered Peace Domain cleric notwithstanding, as the subclass frankly should get its own nerf.
Multiclassing itself is not very well supported by 5th editions rules-- most of the time, you're hamstringing yourself by delaying later features. Rather than nerf the cleric--which is, frankly, what most of these changes accomplish-- I feel like the better (but more difficult) move would be to broaden the number of subclasses available to other classes to make them more unique.
Dissuading people from taking one level dips is, effectively, dissuading players from multiclassing as a whole, as most multiclassing combinations only take about 1-3 levels in any given class. If the goal is to take pressure off of decision-making at first level while simultaneously disincentivizing multiclassing, I think this ought to be compensated for by greatly expanding the feat system or adding more options for customization at later levels, because as it stands, gaining features while "mono-classing" is a passive experience for many classes, particularly non-spellcasters.
I'm curious how they will solve the backwards compability for moving a classes subclass option. It sounds like it will be quite fiddly for players to use their existing material.
This is also a concern of mine.
was also thinking this as well. especially for clerics where their channel divinity is not a healing thing such a forge cleric. 6 levels to be able to forge things?
Just call it what it is 6e. Plus the changes to spells.
@@RayneGrimm1 Yea the change from having your subclasses Channel Divinity at lv2 to lv6 doesn't make sense to me at all.
its gonna be a bit of strain, this is also why I'm really hoping they rethink including artificer. They are restructuring all classes to match progression and adjusting spell lists as a whole. Artificer is already the least supported class and that divide is just going to get bigger being left out of the phb. WOTC are really stretching the line of backwards compatibility.
this will make multi class dips into cleric hard. i like multiclassing, dips makes it more fun
I hear what you're saying about the multiclass stuff, and about the new player stuff. But the only time I've seen someone start at level 1 in a campaign over the past 8 years is when I did it myself. The exact reason being that most classes didn't get thier subclass, and that's what they were excited for. You're ensuring that people never play levels 1 and 2 past their first campaign, because they've already BEEN generic cleric last time, they want to be the new subclass. and that sucks, because that means a good 1/3 of the manual is useless past the first encounter or two, and only then as cannon fodder.
Get rid of the weird inflation ability and just let Goliaths be large creatures. I wanna be able to fully RP that smack-into-doorframes experience
Dear Analytics, please do not annotate my watch of this video negatively because I jump back. Jeremy Crawford has a voice and speaking rhythm that makes my brain so calm I forget to listen to what he's saying. Thx.
Im.actually saddened by the loss of first lvl subclassing, allowed easy ways to add flavor to character builds without taking multiple levels in a class that otherwise may delay progression too much. Unfortunately it's hard to find games that last/go to high levels, epically with the low amount of content D&D has for high levels
I don't understand how clerics can start without a subclass? Like there's a HUGE difference between a death cleric and a light cleric, like backstory wise and the way these characters are played, this is one of the few things I don't agree with changing. Yes, it can make it easier to newer players, but what does a cleric that doesn't have a domain even look like? It might as well be a fighter or a paladin at that point
It might help to think about it this way, a cleric isn't born a cleric, right? Players are playing through a couple levels of "backstory" so to speak. They find their faith and specializations through play.
you still pick the deity (or ideal etc) at level one so your probably already have an idea for who you want to be but there is still time for you to decide how you want to display and use that faith. your still picking spells and roleplaying your pc from what you picked but you've got time before you pick if your version of an illmater worshiping pc will be a life cleric, a peace cleric or heck maybe they will go trickery as a way to help save persecuted people in enslavement
@@Valca.Design Background and levels 1-3 are different. Thst's why it doesn't make sense. Acolytes hang around the temple and learn before adventuring. How are they going to lesrn the tenets of their fsith in a dungeon?!
@@royschindell5730 Is your D&D experience limited exclusively to dungeon crawling? Is there no interaction with NPCs and the overworld, no campaign plots? Very well.
- A dying acolyte in the dungeon whose last words are to pass on a book of knowledge.
- An artifact that bequeaths the adventurer with direct communication with the deity. This incredible religious experience changes the course of their existence.
- An acolyte in a temple sends the adventurer into a dungeon as a rite of passage necessary to earn their place among their religious sect.
Three examples off the top of my head. The beauty of D&D is that you're limited only by your imagination. Don't do yourself a disservice by clinging to how you think things are *supposed* to be.
@@Valca.Design You clearly rolled a 1 and missed my point..on purpose I expect. Of course it isn't limited to dungeon crawling, but how does one go to the Seminary AND travel about the world having adventures? Are the organized religions of your world ok with their representatives not learning the tenets and intricacies of the faith before they get the vestments? Your ideas are plot points and don't answer the question as to how it fits in the larger picture. Yes imagination is the primary ingredient in any ttrpg, but the mechanics that are being suggested here just don't make sense in a roleplay sense. Anyhow, people can run their games as they see fit. That IS the beauty of D&D, you do not have to follow yhe rules as written, but if we're discussing changing the rules as written then lets actually do that.
Thank you for noticing the early sub classes are a setback for new players - as a DM intruding players to D&D this means a lot. As much as I love goodies earlier haha. Loving the Life Domain Cleric and new revised cleric. I must admit I've never played a cleric above level 8 so it's hard for me to compare what was once there for later levels but - eh - yum!
As most campaigns don't make it past lvl 8, this definitely hurts multiclassing options. I do worry more people will be bored as all the early levels will be the same with much less diversity between characters.
3rd Level sub-class for all is a perfect solution multi-classing issues with single level dips. Make the change across the board and rebalance from there. Don't worry about min-maxers. They will enjoy finding new optimization options of whatever you end up with
A lot of the time sublcass abilities are just icing on the cake. This won't get rid of them, and that's a good thing. I think the more important fact is that classes should get powerful abilities at the same rates. Everyone getting their upgrades at different levels is a mess regards to balancing. Hexblades being able to crit on a 19 at level 1? Way too much.
Very mixed feelings on moving the domain to level 3.
On one level I hate it. It doesn’t make thematic sense, and it pushes back the mechanical uniqueness of the character to level 3. I think it short sells player intelligence to say they can’t pick a subclass from a relatively small list. You almost always have to have some idea of where your character is going from level 1 anyway, so I’m not sure what the point is.
On a another level, I really like it. The multiclassing problem is real, glad to see that gone. Adding more features was also really needed. Cleric play style felt pretty dry imo with two or free standout spells and what tended to be one useful subclass ability.
You can still pick your theme and the God/Goddess/Diety/Whatever you want to worship at level 1. By moving the subclass to level 3 it just means that all the baseline features will be available to all domains, that's all. So I disagree that thematically it doesn't make sense. A Death Cleric and a Life Cleric (and every other cleric in between) can us Turn Undead and use that Divine Spark ability at level 1, both fit themes for every domain...maybe a bit generic, but that's kind of the point.
@Andrew, I thought about it some more, and I think I’m okay with it from a thematic standpoint.
It’s fundamentally no different than a drakewarden carrying a drake egg around for two levels before it hatches.
That being said, I do still think there’s a problem with having to roleplay those first to levels in a way that predicts your subclass. Doesn’t really solve the new player issues imo.
@@jacksonletts3724 i feel like if you already know what subclass you want you can definitely role-play it, but im kinda viewing it as you are still a novice and you know you worship x but you don't know how you want to apply those teachings. by level 3 you know better how you and your beliefs and that of your deity manifest since you can handle it better. there will of course as you said be some that don't quite mesh well but that's something to be worked out with he player and the dm i think
I respectfully disagree. I don't see multiclassing as is, a problem.
Here's a design fix for you guys over at wizards. Make all classes have a subclass feature at 1st level. Minor stuff. Toe dipped in the water level strength, even just ribbon abilities. But something to differentiate them from everyone else.
Then, let everyone swap their pick when they hit 3rd level and gain a real mechanically significant subclass feature.
Boom. Solved your problem about choice paralysis without absolutely destroying the verisimilitude of having a domain-less cleric or an oath-less paladin etc.
You didn't solve the problem because you didn't actually suggest anything specific. Saying "add minor stuff" is not a solution.
@@waynecribbs8853 Do you know what a ribbon ability is? Because that's what I am suggesting.
Something minor. A “Ribbon” is a feature that doesn’t have a particular or significant mechanical benefit, such as Thieves’ Cant. Good for fluff, adds some flavor. Usefulness varies, another examples is the jumping distance increase on Remarkable Athlete for 7th-level Champion Fighters. Or how Kenku can mimic sounds.
Giving a subclass ribbon feature at Level 1 would allow you to adopt some of the flavor of the subclass without it being a strong pro-gamer meta defining multiclass move.
How many people would multiclass into Trickster Cleric if it only gave, say, the ability to change your hair and eye color.
Is that neat? Yes. Could it be useful? Sure. Are you going to take a dip into Cleric 1 level to snag this OP ability? Unlikely.
So, something small, it could be cosmetic even. Maybe level 1 Draconic sorcerers get a scaly sheen to their skin and their teeth get sharper. How mechanically useful is that? Not at all.
But what it does do is establish you AS that thing.
You're not some generic cleric who as far as we can tell doesn't even have a god yet until 3rd level? Dumb. No, you're a a cleric of a trickster god and can do something small but neat.
@@remyb6854 Except that Level 1 already has tons of those, and adding 1 more isn't going to magically change anything. There is nothing here in the playtest saying you can't choose a deity at level 1. Saying that clerics are boring and generic because they lack one minor feature at level 1 is ignoring all of the many ways there are to make a level 1 character feel unique.
@@waynecribbs8853 Level 1 doesn't have those. I think you're kinda in left field there. There is no distinction between clerics at L1.
@@remyb6854 There are already plenty of choices at level 1 to make your character feel unique: background, skills, tools, languages, weapons, armor, alignment, personality, traits, flaws, bonds, spell choice....
Love this, but have a slight issue with the "Scholar" Cleric Holy Order option (and other existing options like it that add skill proficiencies after character creation)
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE add an option to apply the Wisdom bonus to 2 skills you are proficient with from that list instead of the 2 you pick
If I'm making a classic Priest style character, I want to take Religion as a proficiency on character creation, but this discourages that because then I couldn't get the Wisdom bonus to my checks with it at level 2. My options RAW are:
1. Not take Religion as a starting proficiency and instantaneously become way better at it at level 2
2. Take Religion as both a starting proficiency AND with this feature, wasting a proficiency OR
3. Take religion as a starting proficiency and select 2 other skills and have my "Priest" be better at Arcana and History than religion
Changing the final sentence to "Once you have gained these proficiencies this way, pick 2 skills from this list that you are proficient in - you gain a bonus to these skill checks equal to your Wisdom modifier" would allow for players to instead enhance what they're already good at, instead of miraculously having their best skills only become their best skills at level 2 (or even level 9, bleh)
As a dm id likely houserule this where you choose 2 skills to become proficient in then pick 2 skills you are proficient in to gain that wisdom bonus.
I love all subclasses at 3. And I really really hope they stick to their guns on this. And they elucidated the reasons quite well...but there's also so many more.
I disagree. I like customizing builds to fit the character and this makes it at best, more difficult. It's not [as] fun waiting an additional 2+ levels to be able to play a character how you want to play it. And from an RP perspective, it puts players in an awkward position. With a shadow sorcerer for example, they're going to level up and suddenly become "odd"? It strips a lot of character personality away, leaving it to be unlocked 2+ levels later if ever. And it's boring if everyone is playing just generic or vanilla classes. Diversity is the spice of life. Before, you could show up with 4 clerics and they'd feel like totally different characters. With this, they're all the same with just different prepared spells. Diversity is the spice of life.
I think moving Subclass to 3rd is brilliant, a lot of times a campaign won't really have its feet under it until you hit level 3, so this gives you time to think about what direction you want to go that will fit the way the campaign is heading.
Or... it just means campaigns will always start at 3rd level to avoid playing the less fun version of your class.
@@techbeef Well, that just objectively is not going to be the case. Plenty of people start their campaigns at 3rd level, but certainly, campaigns will not "always start at 3rd level", and the concept that a lower level is less fun is subjective.
Note about the Scholar Holy Order. I think it should be "Select Two additional proficiencies" and then SEPERATELY - "select two skill proficiencies you have and add the WIS bonus to them". The way it's worded now, a Cleric cannot use that bonus on the proficiencies selected at level 1, which is kind of counter-intuitive and would lead to situations like players holding off getting Religion until level 2 - which feels weird. And it makes sense that a character would get better at a skill that they already know and have been using for 1 or 8 levels. Leveraging the Expertise mechanic from the last UA for these two proficiencies could be interesting as well, and lines up with many Feats that add proficiencies.
Also, you should clarify if the damage from Smite Undead affects the Daze from Turn Undead. I'm guessing that it doesn't (that's it's part of the Turn and damage AFTER the Turn can break the daze) but some clarity is probably warranted.
I also like the standardization of the Subclasses at level 3. The 1-level multiclass dips are pure cheese.
So let me get this straight: part of the reason the subclass is moved to 3rd level, is because multiclass dipping into cleric would instantly give players the subclass features. So now, we changed it to 3rd level, BUT gave them a boosted channel divinity in return, which, again, makes dipping cleric for 1 level interesting.
With so many strong features shipped to 1st level (looking at the new ranger in particular) I sure hope a 12th level character with 1 level in every class isn't stronger than a character who got to 12th level in 1 class..
Thank you for moving on from race to species. It was one of those things that always made me scratch my head.
Love the increased customizability for clerics. Wish you could choose a damage type other than radiant for the divine strikes/channel divinity though. Feels out of place for a number of deities, so even just having necrotic as an option would be cool.
Of thunder and lightning - plenty of room for flavour just by changing this up…
Wow, this Cleric looks very well designed and well balanced. It feels even more like a cleric the original class. Can't wait to play test this :)
Drop the OGL changes.
I genuinely thought more people would be upset about moving all subclasses to 3rd level but I guess I'm the odd one out. Shutting down power gaming level dips is a noble cause but I feel like it leaves the rest of us caught in the crossfire. Subclasses to me have always felt just as, if not more important to defining a character than any other factor, and that most characters are built with a subclass in mind rather than an actual class. Levels 1 and 2 of subclasses like Echo Knight or Wild Magic Barbarian have always felt like you're being forced to play a different character before getting to play YOUR character, and don't get me started on the first 2 levels of Paladin. They feel like a no mans land, or like those awkward first couple of weeks of dating someone where you're unsure if you're a "thing", and if they were going to shift around any levels (unnecessary imo) I would've thought a lot would be shifted to level 2 (or even level 1 for a couple)
Up until now I've been more excited for OneDND than I feel most people have, I've enjoyed the majority of changes and the ones I was on the fence with have already been changed, but just this one change going through would be enough to put me off for good and make me just stick with 5e instead. And based off how positive the reception seems to be, that's probably what's going to happen.
it feels like a similar move from 4e where they tried to discourage multiclassing.
My thoughts would be (and I understand the change) what about those clerics that start the campaign with a subclass. You're not going to be a regular cleric for 2 levels then suddenly start the trickery domain? I feel like that impacts backstory progression. The point of a lot of clerics is that they've been in their domain for a while before adventuring?
This was exactly my thought! What about warlocks? If their idea is that all classes get their sub at 3 now, how does a base warlock make sense
I think it’s supposed to be similar to Paladins. It says that they frequently have chosen and are following their oath already, but officially swear it at level 3.
For cleric they’re already working for their chosen god, but all gods have multiple domains, so you can choose from among them. Or you can do something like Clay in CR campaign 2. He’s a grave cleric working for a nature goddess because of an agreement between the nature goddess and the death goddess.
For warlock they may not know the nature of their patron until they’ve been serving them for a while.
I think it works. Think it like this, my cleric has been in the service of a god of war, and level 3 its when he truly embodies the meaning of being a cleric of war when he makes a vow or something. He was following that domain but only started tapping into its power at third level. Same for warlock, he has been getting magic from somewhere, and at level three their patron starts giving them more freedom to use their powers. Idk it makes sense in my head, I like it
@@meswain1123 see I'm in the boat that thinks paladins should choose their sub at 1 as well. Idk. For a class that derives it's power from religion, it makes sense to actually choose a target of worship. Otherwise where does the power come from?
Or the possibilities grows! Like:
Not sure what has granted you gifts at first, the god or patron seems to be testing your abilities, and then making itself known at third level.
Or the player could still know, being like "Yeah ive prayed to this one god my whole life, and was wisited by one of her angels" -Just because mechanics diffirente later doesnt mean that it cant be said and chosen from the get go story wise.
'look, there's only so much we can do about the cleric healbot mindset without uprooting the game from the firmament. Like we're trying, but this is partly on the players.' tbf, it is a good try this time around... If they mitigate the amount you can channel divinity. I get it, channeling divinity needs to be exhausting, but twice per long rest isn't all that fun for me.
Prediction: most players will choose the protector thaumaturge combo.
Generally in favour of the Cleric changes so far, though I probably need to think on them a bit more. I like the 2nd-level holy order feature, and I'm hoping some of the other full classes get something similar; would be nice for example of Wizards gained their school of magic focus in a similar way (rather than having a sub-class for each school).
I'm a bit iffy on a lot of the spell changes though, will be focusing on that in feedback I think.
For the next survey put a place to rate the strength of the class/subclass/race, do I give a bad or good score to something powerful? I don't know but I want to give this kind of feedback
If you think something is about the right level of power, then you should give it a good score, but if you think it is too powerful (or not powerful enough) then you should give it a bad score.
remember a neutral response is counted as satisfaction if something doesn't sit right with you let em know
Yeah you want to think of it from a quality point rather than a power level
Really admitting that cleric is the only viable healer rather than trying to expand the options for healing is not a great move imo.
Is there any way you can nerf the broken dips without screwing over regular multiclassing? Regular multiclassing was already so awful it was near unplayable. It really feels like someone over there just hates their players doing multiclassing.
The only problem I see with trying to stop the one-level dip for multiclassing is you're still tying abilities to proficiency bonus and not class levels. Why can a cleric 17 and fighter 16/cleric 1 roll the same 6d8 for Divine Spark and use that ability six times?
I thought that was weird too. They might change it once we give feedback, but that was kind of strange to me.
However, considering it requires a CON Save, it's not the greatest ability anyways, so I'm not too broken about it if they keep it to PB, but yes, its odd they chose that route.
As someone who started playing dnd a year ago, I think you're doing a disservice to new players by moving that subclass to level 3. I personally didn't find it confusing. It's exciting to read all this and learn what you can do. And to be honest, I don't think brand new players should play a class with spells anyways. From experience, I seem to be an exception but spells confuse the shit out of new players
These are great changes. I can't wait to see how this looks and plays out. Turn undead at first is awesome. New campaign opportunities
I understand the reasoning, but its not enough to justify moving such a core part of the class identity to level 3. Just like paladins are now, you're predisposed to being the holy warrior of light archetype until lv 3. Lets say I want to run a cleric of Vecna, makes no sense that I can do radiant damage to my foes and turn undead from my holy visage as my core abilities.
I think if every class that has 1st level changed subclasses to 3rd and instead gained a sort of choice to gain different features it would be amazing.
The problem with not gaining heavy armor proficiency at 1st level is the uncertainty when building your character to focus on Str or Dex. Heavy armor requires Str to wear and allows you to dump Dex, and medium armor utilizes some Dex and allows you to dump Str.
If you only have medium armor proficiency at 1st level and allocated your stats accordingly, you likely wouldn’t have the Str to wear your heavy armor at 2nd level. This doesn’t fit with their stated goal of making things easier for new players, who can’t handle making a subclass decision at 1st level, but have to allocate their stats by looking ahead to 2nd level 🤨
You keep on saying that 1D&D is backwards compatible with everything already released for 5e. With how stark the changes to the clerics leveling. How will you make these previous domains and subclasses work?
You will choose to make a 5e cleric or a 5.5/6e cleric, both will work with the rules. "Backwards compatible" doesn't mean that you can pick and choose to use parts of 5e and 5.5/6e and just mash them altogether and everything magical works. It means 5e characters work in a game played with 5.5/6e characters. For a contrast, you couldn't use 4e characters in a 5e game because the rules are so vastly different.
Overall i feel these are good changes though there are a few nuanced things that i personally am not a fan of.
Im glad with the movement away from one level dips. I myself do love building strong pcs but so many of them ended up making monstrosities that felt less like a pc and more like a walking pile of mechanics held together loosely with a flimsy backstory. not saying all folks did this but it was often enough that they even pointed it out in the video about clerics with druid for a single effect as an example. But moving away from that to the actual class, species and glossary.
Overall im happy with the base class and the subclass. i feel giving channel divinity a base harm/heal thing wont hinder to much as it felt in line already with the class and should mesh well with any players vision of a pc. The later access to a subclass specific channel divinity is interesting though does make backwards compatibility a question.Turn undead is still good and in line with the class. the addition of holy orders allows for a bit more customization to clerics and does help remove some issues with trying to build your vision. As an example i have a forge cleric now that cannot wield weapons he makes and that's a major bummer.
Smite undead has changed a bit from the prior version but i feel this is a good change as it does damage to all now and does not have a requirement on cr so it will feel useful even in cases where it wouldn't prior. the addition of blessed strikes again adds to the idea of not needing to use class feature variants as with tashas to make your pc work how you would. divine intervention moving up a level is rough but it was always a risk reward ability as is but the fact that it can be lower than the prior 7 days is nice. the only real note i have on the subclass is that im glad they are at least looking at the way they word things better (the good berry interaction as they said though i am now imagining people preparing a reaction to eat the berry when its cast)
Ardlings are still cool, the new ancestry is nifty and really does make things work for letting you flavor as you will. The flyer option feels rather week out of all of them but that isn't too bad given the jump action doesn't count as part of your movement so it still is useful.
Dragonborns are much better now and they addressed alot of what i was worried about in my survey such as the full action breath weapon which is now part of the action if you have multi attacks. Being able to chose either line or cone is beneficial and amuses me as i imagine dragons practicing tongue placements to focus it :p as well as the damage scaling is better. the flight is a nice bonus and isnt overpowered all round no notes
Goliath seems like they should just call it a half giant at this point . The unique traits are all interesting though Hills tumble having no save to resist prone seems peculiar. I was concerned about large form for a moment as i was concerned with interactions with rune knight but that one already specifies smaller than large so you don't have to worry about gargantuan rune knights.
As for the glossary this one requires more time to really parse things but a first glance
Aid-its an odd change but not one i feel the hurt on too bad
Armor training-still concerned with wizards and other casters getting heavy armor proficiency too easily
Attack Roll- glad crits are back, was still hoping "crunchy crits" would make an appearance
(crit gives max first die and then rolled so a short sword would be 6+1d6+ mod)
Banishement- The rewording and removal of native plane has me concerned as they have given several pc types such as centaur, changeling and fairy are fey and make just get straight up moved to another plane instead of their home plane.
Blind sight and in conjunction invisibility- Changes are a welcome thing though i am hoping they just specify creature in the invisibility advantage to hit as is you still get the "im going invisible to hit the barrels" thing.
Heroic inspiration- It is great at getting it on a 1 and my players have definitely found it useful and im glad they made it so you can use it after a roll instead of before. Feels less wasteful
Exhaustion- much prefer this version as its far clearer and easier to introduce into the game
Fly speed- The removal of prone from the conditions that can create falling in non magical flying is odd.
Guidance/Resistance- Guidance is still going to be a must take now that its been adjusted back but its not as bad and resistance is actually viable now that its been given range and reaction (no one prepares for a saving throw)
Influence- im glad they removed the charts as i still am not sure how wording a hostile creature would do you a favor made sense unless in a very limited scope especially at the low recommended dc they had prior.
Long rest!- I am happy with this middle ground approach to it. the prior Full reset to rest was far to punishing but the way they've set it up now means that there is still a good reason for players to move if they are in a bad area as it will keep adding an extra hour each interruption. I feel they found a great solution to this and also made it very clear on how things are handled even including that the resting part is included in the total by saying cant start another for 16 hours. Very well done yall!
Movement- it is rough to only get one movement speed per move though i wonder if clarification can be made about using half movement still or if you move and get to the water you have to dash even if you had movement left? (30 feet move 30 feet swim. move 20 to lakes edge do i have to dash or do i get 5 feet into the water using my regular movement at half?) either way this does help remove the confusion in the prior editions multi speed movements
Prayer of healing- It feels like it s a catnap but with some extra bonus im not opposed
Spiritual weapon- I really am not keen on this. it feels like a nerf that really wasn't needed to add concentration to this. I am a little biased as i love this spell but i do hope that the feed back puts this one back to how it was prior.
Tremorsense- great to get clarifications on it though it doesn't seem to affect invisibility
unarmed strike- Im glad they are moving away from natural weapons and just putting shoves and such under the umbrella of unarmed strikes but i am concerned that the wording of this will mean that opportunity attacks will now allow one to make a grapple on a reaction since the effects are no in addition to the hit. this will need clarification as a reaction grapple is very game changing
I love the subclass at 3rd philosophy and giving the class their class identity at 1st level. This makes me genuinely excited for Druid.
First level wild shape maybe?
@@theomorphical Thats what I'm thinking. Even if it's like CR0 beasts. I'm good with that.
I kind of wish we would go back to the paragon and epic paths for fourth. At this you choose your sub class and at 13 or 14 you choose your epic sub class. Give us more customization.
I'm going to ignore the good berry and life domain healing not synergizing. This is a great feature that doesn't need to be depowered.
Divine Intervention feels like a very weird design decision given the stated design intent to avoid "mother may I" features in the main release and feedback video.
If they removed Divine Intervention, I think a lot of people would Riot, and there's also the description of "any divine spell" which makes it a bit less of a Mother may I
@@xogdo5260 Riot? The original version of the feature required such a high level that literally nobody was using it. Giving players a 10% chance to maybe cast a high level spell once every few sessions is the very definition of a bad feature. 90% of the time it does nothing and the remaining time it literally breaks the whole encounter. Come up with something better to replace it and call that divine intervention instead.
@@BloodPatternBlue "literally nobody was using it". Uh citation needed? I've seen it used plenty of times. Not a bad feature at all. Fun uses of Divine Intervention have made some amazing roleplaying moments.
How will you monitize this?
I wonder how this is going to affect the warlock. It may be interesting to have a warlock who's not entirely sure on what entity their patron is, and just receive strange messages and orders from them, until third level where their patron's influence on them is stronger and more direct
You can know who your patron is, but maybe you cannot channel enough of its essence/power to be different from other pacts
@marcos2492
You can do either now, which I think is really cool.
"People love clerics we aren't going to change em" *proceeds to change everything about them and nerf them into the ground*
I've heard that tact taken before. Just before Rogues were completely eviscerated.
I was somewhat "forced" to play a cleric in a friend's campaign and fell in love with the class. I potentially like some of the changes, but it seems like you're loosing a bunch of flavour, some power and your being encouraged to fill more of a healer role.
Yeah this is my biggest worry. I play a war cleric and while some of the changes look good i'm not liking that clerics are locked into two Chanel Divinity choices. I've lost my War God's Blessing now, I specifically did not want to be a heal bot but a damage dealing buff bot.
The new Cleric is very good, having Divine Spark as a real gem. But Life Clerics should've interactions with the new Divine Spark feature.
Part of me likes the idea of normalizing lvl 3 subclasses for all classes, mostly to avoid multiclass shenanigans.
However, I really don't buy the argument that playing with the base class through lvls 1-2 really does much to help a new player make an informed decision about their subclass. As you mentioned in this video, those first two levels are intentionally really quick anyway. Often, you want to decide which subclass you're building for as early as level 0, just from your race, background, and starting stats. If a new player is overwhelmed by their level 1 decisions, the DM can and should help provide context to help them make an informed decision. Delaying that decision to lvl 3 doesn't really do much to change that.
I'm also very skeptical about what this change has on classes whose subclass is core to how the character has the class at all. Primarily, this is an issue for sorcerers and warlocks. The source of the sorcerer's innate magic is predetermined, and likewise for the Warlock. It's not possible for a character to have access to these classes, without these sources being established. Delaying the decision by two lvls simply doesn't make any sense.
Quite frankly, I'd argue that the same should also be true for paladins, who should probably be making their oath as soon as they enter into the vocation at lvl 1.
I understand and appreciate the change from a balance perspective, so that subclass powers aren't *too* frontloaded, but from a thematic perspective it doesn't really make much sense.
Maybe the better way to do this would be to decide on your subclass at lvl 1 (which most players are doing anyway), but delay the core abilities to lvl 3.
The idea of putting subclasses at 3rd makes sense, though for Warlocks I don't really know how that narratively makes sense. If it's just a case of 'you have to discover the true nature of your patron over time' then that could work, but that severely limits backstory creativity if everyone has to have a mysterious patron at the start of the game.
Considering how fundamental patron choice is to a warlock, the class must have undergone some serious mechanical changes to make this work.
it could be that you are more akin to a studier of the esoteric and dark secrets that other mages are too afraid (or wise) to explore and finally at third level you encounter a powerful being to make a pact with
I can finally play as a Life Cleric without having to feel gimped not using heavy armour, thank you!!!!!!!!
The standardization of level 3 subclass makes me worry for Sorcerer and Warlock - only because their subclass IS their source of power. It will be difficult to sell me on a Sorcerer unlocking a magical bloodline or a Warlock making a pact AFTER already casting spells
Moving the subclass choice to 3rd for new players? Absolutely great game design... but the story of these two mages feels possibly lost
this problem already exists with paladins in 5e. a way to solve this is to incorporate your pact into your character from level 1, and just think of the subclass features as level 3 as your powers differentiating from those of other paladins. taking the dragon sorc for example, your draconic magic allows you to cast spells from level 1, but you start to see the unique physical effects like scales from level 3 because of the impact your magic has on your body
@@jackdiddles4304 I could maybe see that. For paladins, I always viewed their Oath as more of a specialization as a holy warrior rather than their source of power. Like first you train with weapons and armor, sensing evil creatures, and healing wounds. Then you devote yourself to the Oath, giving you strength. So it's not their source of power, it's just where they focus their attention - which is why I'm ok with the new Cleric. It's harder for me to see that with sorcerer or warlock, but I think you have a point
I now fully understand why people use to hold on to older versions of D&D, I'm thinking 5e is going to be popular for a LOOOONG time. There are a whole lot of "improvements" that might "balance" the game better but most of them will just annoy experienced players and DMs alike.
DMs is actually happy with a changes. Balance is good thing - it makes game fair for everyone, not just casters who can outcontroll, outdamage and outsurvive any martial.
Not a fan of the homogenization of class structure. I think differences in power spike levels and when you got subclass stuff is just more interesting and also allows different classes to shine at different levels of play.
You need to bring back kits, along with so many other things from 2e that would help the depth of the game
How do you see kits differing from subclasses? Just thinking back, it seems that they are sort of the same.
@@matthewgordon3281 a kit was more a profession than a sub-class, allowing super specialization in certain skills usually not available to standard members of that particular class, or even cross-class abilities and skills
That look 6:48 they REALLY dont want you to multiclass anymore.
the new options don't seem compatible with the previous subclasses
Ok but I usually incorporate my subclass of choice into my backstory and we start at level 3 anyway so it makes sense. Never had a player just play the class at the beginning of a campaign without decided on a subclass.
4:33 This feels disingenuous. If we are worried about buyer's remorse of new players, why are there choices that can't be changed before 3rd level?
Rangers, Rogues and Bards choose their expertise at level 1 and there's not a system to swap them.
Clerics choose a Holy Order at 2 and that may be a bad choice.
This is just disregarding rule #1 for GMs. Don't be a D. If a new player chooses Arcana as a domain, let them swap that out.
This is a part of the playtest that won't actually get playtested. How many brand new D&D players are coming into playtest sessions? Not enough to get a clear picture. My other worry is erasing RP potential from several classes
Level 2 Cleric: I don't know who I worship yet, I'm still shopping around. I'm torn between Cyric and Sharindiar.
Level 2 Sorcerer: My ancestor was... someone.
Level 2 Warlock: I summoned an entity and made a bargain with them for power... I don't know who I summoned or what that bargain looks like, but I can Eldritch blast.
If dipping needs to be stopped, address that in the multiclass rules. If you're worried about new players, codify rule #1 better. If you just want every class to have the same shape, say it and move on.
I Love the Holy Order class feature. But at 9th level I fell that was a lazy decision choose another order. Clerics of the Protector Order must be incentivated to be in close combat, a Extra Attack at 9th level will be great for this porpouse. Schollar for example can gain expertise or reliable talent and Thaumaturgist gain a feature like can prepare extra spells or whatever.
The way this features was made and the player think... The majority will be protectors, use heavy armor whatever of the play style of his character.
With the change this does leave one to wonder how it will affect ALL the Cleric subclasses of the past. 5E was designed with certain abilities being gotten at Lv 1 as well as abilities, training, spells..etc.
Take Twilight Clerics as an example, when do they get thier AoE healing effect at 3rd, what about thier ability to see with 300' feet darkvision is that also at third or will that be errata until later?
Will we ever get an ability that allows us to melee attack with our Wisdom instead of str? Right now Clerics are very MAD, with no subclass that offers that ability.
Really hoping most classes get something they can do a number of times equal to their proficiency, ESPECIALLY fighters!
Thanks.
6:10 So I don't have much of an issue mechanically with having clerics gain their subclass at 3rd level instead of 1st. My issue is from a narrative purpose, clerics in 5E have been presented as a class that is affiliated with a specific domain and/or deity from their inception; there's no "internship" or "trial period" like there are with other classes, so there's nothing in the current edition that establishes what a "vanilla" cleric would look like for those first couple of levels. That's a pretty big change for a class that has that kind of affiliation as a core part of its identity in 5E, and I'm worried about what this will mean for sorcerer and warlock down the road.
You can serve a god and just chose one of god's domain on 3rd level. You can serve Eldath and struggle to chose between peace, life, nature or unity (if they add this domain in OneDND) before level 3. Great RP purposes.
Not necessarily a good or a bad thing, but I think not allowing clerics to get their subclass in the 1st level will cut off the number of people who will multiclass into that Class. That's one of the main benefits of Cleric/Sorcerer. I do like expanding the utility in Channel Divinity. Levels 5-7 are famously BAD for the cleric, I appreciate buffing those levels.
Sounds exciting, the blogs really help with dev intent on the changes
Works for me, I usually dont join campaigns that start before level 3
These are some decent changes
Going backwards to older editions to go forward with the clerics with healing on demand.
Other than Goliaths being OP these are nearly all improvements, quality of life or otherwise
ALL of the One DnD changes seemdesigned to make characters OP. I suspect it is the Mercer effect, where people have seen players become "gods" in a short amount of playing time. Old school players tend to enjoy the grind and take that extra time to...roleplay...and develop their character..
@@royschindell5730 They've nerfed a ton of things in OneD&D. Spiritual Weapon, Life Cleric Goodberry cheesing (where a 1st level spell could heal 40 HP), many Rogue features, quite a few feats (Polearm Master, Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter, etc).
They're not just buffing things. They're rebalancing things.
So I'm wondering what's the defining ability of the priest group? if experts is expertise what do priests have? Classically able to heal well?
This stuff sounds really good.