Character Archetypes in Fighting Games | Full Breakdown/Video Essay
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- čas přidán 16. 05. 2024
- A breakdown on the character design in fighting games and how they relate to the categories we place them in.
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First off, let me start by thanking everyone who has liked and subscribed. I never dreamed this video would be as popular as it is, and I’m truly thankful.
Second, I want to address the most commonly asked questions about the video to help clear up a few things.
1: “Why didn’t you use (X character) as an example?!” The reason you saw a lot of Street Fighter, Guilty Gear, and Smash characters was because of two main reasons. First, popularity. This video is targeted at newer players, so I tried to pull from less obscure games so that people would understand what I was talking about. Sure, I could’ve used Carl from BlazBlue as a puppet example, but 98% of the audience wouldn’t know who he was. Second is experience. I have played tons of fighting games, but I’d say I’m only at a decent competitive level for SFV, the GGs, and maybe Skullgirls and HFTF. I don’t wanna talk about a game I only have less than 100 hours of experience in.
2: “Why isn’t (X Archetype) mentioned?!” Simple. Runtime. This video is already 15 minutes long, and I wanted to explain everything in depth while also not making an hour long video.
3: “Why not charge characters?” I plan to make a separate video on input styles in fighting games where I’ll go in depth about charge inputs, so that’s where you’ll find my take about that.
4: “Cecilia isn’t a puppet character!” Google did me dirty, asked what were puppet characters for BlazBlue and they said Cecilia and Carl. Not even a single mention of Relius (I didn’t own CF until recently)
5: “This isn’t what (X archetype) is!” Remember, every single fighting game is built differently. Put a rushdown character from Street Fighter against one from Guilty Gear and you’ll see what I mean. I tried to provide a broad definition of the mere basics a character in that category would have, but every single game functions differently and awards different tools to its characters.
6: “Why is (archetype A) seperate from (archetype B) when (archetype A) has characteristics of (Archetype B)?!” Remember: My main point was fighting game characters are a recipe. While it’s true lots of rushdown characters have mixup potential, they’re both seperate ingredients that come together to create the character you love. Chocolate chip cookies don’t come with chocolate in the dough, you gotta mix them together to make the final product.
Again, thanks so much for all the support, and if you still have any questions, feel free to ask away, I try to reply to as many (non-stupid) comments as I can!
Hi hope everyone has a great day or night
I know it’s just a mix of the mentioned archetypes but I’m surprised you didn’t mention the trapper archetype because you see it a lot in fighting games now a days. It’s a kind of mix of both the zoner and set play archetype that you mentioned. Naoto from Persona 4 arena, Erin Black for mortal combat, Chris Redfield for marvel vs capcom and Snake for Smash Bros come to mind in my opinion. They tend to have the tools to give themselves space from the zoner archetype and or big pools of health to help them set up traps, normally have big damage output and set up traps like the set play archetype to extend, start up or finish combos with massive damage.
I'd argue Tekken and the Marvel vs Capcon series and even Mortal Kombat are more popular than Guilty Gear, and you didn't use examples from them at all. They have extremely good examples for gimmick characters and stance characters, though it might just be because you've played Guilty Gear more so there's a distinct bias towards it.
I disagree with lots of the sentiments in this post.
1. _Regarding popularity:_ I can somewhat see this argument with "simpler" arcetypes as Shoto or Rushdown, but is there really any character that is on the same level asn Carl for a Puppeteer?
You still list three characters, making one of them "obscure" shouldn't really be a problem when it is a _really good_ example. (really sad to learn that BB is obscure, but it is probably true)
Furthermore, if this really is for newbies, I don't think you are doing the fighting game community a service by only mentioning 4 games. Showing the wide diversity of games in this genre surely is going to spark more interest.
_Regarding experience:_ How much expereince do you need to know that Tager is a Grappler? That Bridget is a set-up/trapper? If you really value experience so much, you should probably reach out to fellows in the community to get more input on the topic.
2. I think your video is stuck somewhere in between for-newbies and for-community-members. To make it more newbie-friendly it should probably be less than 10 minutes and you should probably list the characteristics of the types with big text at the end of each segment to summarize.
The way you started each segment with gameplay and not writing out the type beforehand, screams "you know this character, so which category is s/he?" and only seems appropriate in a video targeted at people well-versed in fighting games.
6. You started the video with that excellent cake recipe analogy, but it was forgotten for the rest of the video, which is why maybe some viewers also forgot that.
When you presented your example characters for each type, you should probably have written the recipe under each picture.
If you did, I _would buy_ your argument of experience for only showing characters of four games, as _that_ surely is something only one with experience can do.
I really liked how you for example during the Shoto explanation showed many different characters doing their similar moves, that was really a good way to convey their simililarities. You should've probably included similar clips in all explanations.
Congratulations on making your first hit video!
I hope that you could take the critique that I, and certainly more so, other more experienced people have given. (I'm just a guy who is total scrub in BB after playing on off for 10 years so...)
I'm sure you have other videos planned, but I think you should after reading up and discussing the topic with the community, you should release a updated version of this video.
Best regards and best of luck!
Cecilia, lul. Celica, not Cecilia. BlazBlue had plenty of audience recognition my dude, this reeks of YOU simply not recognizing it :x
At begginer level, everyone is a rushdown character, lol
Or a zoner who try to fire everything from a distance (and fail).
I play Kirby in smash but I have perfected my own playstyle with him I barelly transform I rarely ever use his succ(insert sound echo hear) ability I grab a lot and throw a lot and when Items spawn I grab one and beging my second stage I throw what ever Item I picked(it's medium weight for this purpose too light will almost float in he same place and too heavy will land in front of your feet) at the oponent from one side to the other and rush down to grab the item so I can grab it while the oponent is staggered and throw it again against the enemy before the throw that makes the item disapear I use it normaly.
@@Colorless_Reaper That's more so casual smash. When items are off, Kirby tends to struggle a lot more. I wouldn't really call him shit in Ultimate (that's more so Melee and Smash 4, and characters in Ultimate don't really fall below mid-tier aside from a select few characters), but he's definitely a mid tier character in terms of the competitive landscape.
Big Unga
@@Colorless_Reaper “items”
Ew.
“Mario is a Shoto”. That was not something I expected to hear today but shit, I guess so
Homie made me activate brain cells with that one. Lmao
I mean, he technically fits all of the requirements
I wasn't expecting Avdol to be called a Shoto
On the other hand, Luigi (at least modern Luigi, i.e. Sm4sh and SmUsh) is more of a Grappler with his miserable range on most moves, meh movement and deadly-explosive punishes.
@@goldenhydreigon4727 me neither
But tbh, the other one who could count as a shoto would be Jotaro but he is more of a close range shoto
Me, who has never played any fighting game seriously: i like your funny words magic man
That’s me and I play fighting games a lot
Nice clone high reference
Hearing a fighting game fan use the 56845th terminology: "mmm, interesting"
13:20
Steve (from smash) is definitely a gimmick character that uses his tools to zone. His mining mechanic changes based on the material of the fricking stage, even stages in a “normal” variant (used to play good looking stages or stages with good music while still being competitive), can change his game play a fair amount. If anyone wants further info, reply and I’ll edit the comment.
Its funny, I don't really play fighters but I thought he would be a set up character? (of course they can have characteristics of several archetypes)
@@timothybodette4924 sorry, I stupidly didnt mention steve is from smash, hope i didnt confuse you.
Also, huge explanation inbound, buckle up.
If you already knew, well, not all zoners are equal. He does have a good ledge trap that could theoretically give Snake a run for his money, but his constant requirement of needing resources combined with his arguably superior method of building walls causes the steve community to agree Steve is a more textbook zoner that, quite literally, walls you out. Plus, even if Steve never needed to mine, his ledge setups are harder to preform than snake, making a mistake could cause steve to lose stage control or even end up in disadvantage. It’s sometimes better for him to do more normal ledge trapping to reduce resource usage and risk, plus it makes it a bit more likely he’ll land an uptilt or jab to preform his combos. When using blocks in neutral, he can mine for materials while his opponent tries to break through his defense. Although counter play to steve is a bit awkward, it’s still pretty simple most of the time. Assuming Steve has a 3 block tall wall (which isn’t always gonna happen, sometimes a single block is good enough), you can either use long ranged attacks to safely destroy them, try to use disjoints specifically to hit steve (Bemonts and Byleth are pretty good), or jump over (most common.) Counter-play to this is Steve simply builds or punishes faster than the opponent can when they break the blocks, Steve baits the disjoints by sheilding and punishing with dash attack, fair or bair, and Steve can easily punish jump with his disjointed and extended upsmash.
Of course, opponents can bait these out, and at that point it’s essentially rock-paper-scissors. If Steve decides to try a different wall, for example, 2 block tall with the bottom block not placed, Steve can run through and suprise the opponent (only a block on the ground can stop a running opponent), use side b as either a burst option or a projectile (If he rides it it’s a strong attack, if he exits instantly it’s a projectile), or bait opponents that know they can run through so he can land a combo starter.
Anyways, im done, if you need more info, lemme know
Good point
Actually he's a bitch ass character
Almost everyone from Smash, because this is SMASH! The crossover game!
To a rushdown player, everything else is a gimmick.
Grappler approaches.
This mixes very well with the comment that says that at beginner level everyones a rushdown main
When a rushdown main and a grappler main meet each other, the one with the lower IQ wins
@@rickberny1424 lmao a hotdog eating contest with glue sticks instead of hotdogs.
@@WarningStrangerDanger
I prefer crayons, but I respect your choice.
I laughed at "Everyone from DBFZ is rush down." It's both true and false at the same time, so I can't blame him.
Yeah they are rushdown + whatever the secondary fighting style is
Broly is a Grappler and a Rushdown with proyectiles.
This combination is good in DBFZ but if this exist in another game like Street Fighter it will be totally Broken.
As somebody who's played DBFZ, it's honestly less like everybody is rushdown and more, the only way to win is to play rushdown.
@@theamericanbrotherofmightg3734 Broly is borderline broken in DBFZ lol
I think due to a combination of the mechanics of the game and just how each characters movesets are, every character is a combination of Rushdown and something else. For example Beerus has Zoning and Setplay elements, The Brolys and 18 are Pseudo-grapplers, UI Goku is a counter character, etc. But all of them are still primarily Rushdown in their gameplan. (i.e. they want to get close and pressure until you guess wrong on a mix up)
Mechanics like the super dash make it easy and effective to just play as unga bunga as possible, and when you factor in that every character has 4 way mix ups in any given block string, it’s kind of hard to not have a rushdown meta.
@@holdenkimura5034 I'm saying that mechanics like superdash, dragonrush from 5L, IAD mix-ups, assists, etc, all these universal mechanics and then a lack of immensely strong universal defense options other than blocking, reflect, guard cancel, and spark (three of these being able to be punished harshly if done recklessly)... These all lead to universally everyone being able to play rushdown, and not only that, but the game entirely favouring the rushdown gameplan with how heavily you can pressure somebody in the corner with almost any character when you play right.
It's because of those reasons I feel like less it's a unique character trait to call everyone in DBFZ "Rushdown" and more the game itself is Rushdown, with every character then having types that build off that system.
TL;DR, I don't see classifying characters as Rushdown in DBFZ, unless they clearly are, as really being a great way to classify them as it isn't unique to the character, it's just how the game itself is made in a Rushdown style.
Fighting game jargon not explained in-video (long message warning btw):
2:18
Footsies - well-spaced movement. Being good at footsies means knowing when to approach, when to retreat, and where you and your opponent want to be relative to each other
Midrange Game* - a game state in which players are a medium distance from each other, far enough to avoid most attacks but close enough that either could run in and attack if they saw an opening
Fireball Game* - similar to above, a game state in which either player could hit the other with a projectile and must be ready to avoid it
Coverage - the ability for a character to counter multiple different ways the opponent could approach
2:39
Reversal - a move that allows a character to get out of a disadvantageous state (such as the middle of being comboed) and avoid damage or death if used properly, but weakens them even further if misused
Anti-Air - a move that counters approaches or attacks from above
Normals/Buttons - basic attacks (usually with punch & kick or light & heavy variations)
3:34
Okizeme/Wakeup Game - idfk man
Mix-up - alternate methods of approaching, attacking, or comboing that your opponent might be unprepared for
7:03
Cross-up - a method of getting behind your opponent
Pressure - using many, often varied, attacks to either overwhelm a defending opponent or force them to try and escape, counterattack, or take all the hits you're dishing out
Matchup - how well or poor you'd expect one character to fare against another based on their archetypes, moves, stats, and other traits assuming both players are of roughly equal skill
13:50
Knockdown* - there are multiple ways to define this but generally, it's a player state in which you're unable to attack for a certain amount of time, allowing the opponent to do something that's normally too risky
Neutral - a game state in which neither players have an advantage and both are trying to gain one over the opponent through positioning, footsies, and safe (low-risk) moves
Snowball - not specific to fighting games, but it means furthering an advantage over your opponent
* - things I'm not certain on but have a decent feel for and figured I could still reasonably explain. Correct me if I'm wrong in the replies
As someone who likes fighting games casually but isn't super hardcore into the FGC scene I've been trying to figure out what okizeme/wakeup game is for good minute too lol. I know wakeup refers to getting up after being knocked down but in this case would it be an advantage at recovering from being knocked down or being able to fuck with others as they're recovering? Oh well, still picked up a lot of other neat little facts here though.
@@ozairchishti1264 Okizeme is effectively wakeup pressure. Millia Rage in Guilty Gear Strive, for example, has *RIDICULOUS* levels of Okizeme with her Tandem Top projectile. This makes it so that she wants to cause a hard knockdown, to put that projectile on you that you HAVE to block on wakeup and force a 2-way mixup (High/low or left/right) that will just snowball into another Okizeme situation if you guess wrong.
Okizeme roughly just means advantage from knockdown, and the following pressure
In it’s basic form, it’s a meaty(attack that hits on its late frames), but many characters in many games have different forms oki
For instance, in DBFZ, after using her LV3, Android 21 has +18 frames, and she can only get a safejump j.H or 2M as her oki, making it relatively poor
But for Vegito’s LV3, he has the option to vanish, and then go for an ambiguous cross-up/sameside mix, dragon rush, meaties, basically anything he wants (very good oki)
And then there was GTku in season 2 with his balls-ridiculous +100 spirit bomb oki mixup game what the heck even was that
Okizeme is basically what happens when one character is knocked to the ground: one person tries to get back up, while the other applies pressure.
@@senounatsuru6453 Tl:Dr, "I SAID STAY DOWN."
"Kirby as a Composite"
Shows 167 Kirby unique Up-tilts
I feel like any discussion of gimmick characters must acknowledge the supremacy of Phoenix Wright.
He is so OP, tho. Gotta love his turnabout mode
Nah if you're talking about that game, the most blatant and potent example would be dark Phoenix. Typically the only thing she's used for is her gimmick and it doesn't require any active setup unlike... The other gimmick Phoenix in the same game.
@@CtrlAltRetreat I would say that Phoenix Wright is a ‘gimmick character’ because all if not most of his moves are gimmicky and unpredictable.
I would say that Dark Phoenix has a ‘gimmick comeback mechanic’ but Dark Phoenix is not a gimmick character. There is nothing gimmicky about her moves overall when compared to the rest of her cast but there sure is something very, very gimmicky about her X-Factor... She becomes a different character once that becomes activated.
@Michael Powell Oh he’s one of the Gods when it comes to gimmick characters... But all praises are due 🙏🏾
That’s the Gawwwd!!!
This guy never brings up Marvel
This made me realize Zelda in Melee was supposed to be a stance character
But everyone only uses Sheik
Well, they tried
They made it work with Pokemon Trainer, tho.
@@pabscoello yeah
After being divided in Sm4sh though Zelda is a Zoner now and Sheik a Rushdown
If the transformation was faster and Zelda herself not hilariously trash as a character, you probably would have seen a lot of stance dancing mixups that would be a lot of fun to use.
@@Dliciousization such wasted potential
The general vibe I got from this video is that I need to play guilty gear.
Play guilty gear and main Potemkin
monkey sol bad guy, anji and leo says:
YES
refined testament want to know if you will take a cup of tea
and potemkin just eat glue
main the lord and savior ROBO-KY
@@Moeru_Gatsuand happy chaos will drink his gun ( he felt like it)
I’d like to make the case that trapper is an archetype in and of itself.
While “mixup” does somewhat cover the concept of a trapper character, I think the identity of trapper is distinct enough for it to stand out on its own for a few reasons:
Mixup characters tend to be focused on making you make guesses as to what you’re doing next, but don’t necessarily push to limit options on what you *can* do to respond. Basically, if I’m subject to mixup a, and I have response a, b, or c, those responses are roughly the same for my opponent’s mixup b-although the correct response is different.
I think the trapper archetype often has crossover with the mixup archetype, as they both want to force the opponent to make reads-however, I think trapper emphasizes the *removal* of options from an opponent’s kit, while also the eating a very specific and lethal “trap” for the opponent to fall into. A trapper might subject an opponent to their mixup a, where the opponent can respond with a b or c, but their mixup b can only be responded to with a or b. Basically, the idea of limiting options.
I can only really argue that this archetype exists in smash ultimate, based on my experiences. An example of what I would consider to be a trapper would be someone like Pac-Man or Robin.
Trappers typically have strong normals, a high variance projectile, a technical tool, and moderate to low end kill power outside of their *trapping* opportunities.
Example: Pac-Man has several different projectiles that change as you charge the ability. Each projectile plays a roll, but the projectiles alone are too slow to be used consistently as your primary neutral game. Instead, the projectiles are used to force opponents into bad situations or create mixups where you can secure an early kill, and these mixups are made into traps through competent use of your hydrant. The key difference between a trapper and a mixup character is that the trapper archetype is oriented around setting a trap for the opponent to fall into, while the mixup character uses those mixups more directly and offensively.
Basically, trapper is setup+mixup with a little bit of zoning mixed in, I feel.
Trapper IS a recognized fighting game character archetype, usually seen as a specific type of zoner, but it's specific to platform fighters (such as Super Smash Brothers). This is mostly because the trapper's playstyle is stage control via limiting an opponent's mobility, something that is only reasonable with larger stages that have a variety of movement options.
Pac-Man definitely counts as a trapper, Robin not so much, but the best, most archetypal example is Solid Snake. Isabelle, Villager, and (to a lesser extent) Steve are also trappers. All of them are very stage-positioning heavy characters - they have major, gameplay-defining projectiles with the limitation that they're either affixed to a set spot on the ground or are only effective at very specific angles + distances. The goal becomes to get your opponent into the specific space you need them to be. THAT is considered the most crucial aspect of the archetype.
@@TheStarsTwilight I think Piranha Plant also counts as a trapper, since most of that character's game plan revolves around having poison cloud or ptooie out to pressure opponents, as well as having some pretty strong normals.
@@TheStarsTwilight King Dedede and maybe Ness would work well in this role as well.
Another good example of a trapper is Cagliostro from GBVS, actually. Her whole gameplay goes around her mehen traps and her different ways to force her opponents into them to start her combos with her strong normals or charge her rock from afar and use her zoning tools, making her incredibly annoying to deal with if you know how to play her.
You mean like joker or Rambo from mk
i find it funny that ryu from smash bros technically counts as a gimmick character
He kinda counts as a gimmick-grappler imo
- Gimmick because he does play a different game
- Grappler because of his ridiculously low range, coupled with his below average speed, make it difficult to approach for him, but due to his combo potential make him extremely threatening once he does get in
Steve.
He is *the* gimmick character.
Ryu is a shoto in his own game and a gimmick in another game. Kind of ironic.
Smash Bros is largely gimmick characters.
@@maxmucci3170 He's also a mid-range zoner with his Hadouken setups.
Kakyoin: the guy who forgot to do puppet and just decided to do rushdown
*and zoner
Understandable, since everyone started to deflect the Emerald Splash.
he’s honestly good at both and pretty op since he has good matchups the only thing better is petshop but fuck petshop
Dio's Zawarudo is OP :'v
It’s really not
This is so intelligently made, fantastic job! The part where you defined gimmick characters was very creative, yet perseptive and well articulated!
Great video! While the definitions aren't concrete, you've got this literally down to a science (a way to understand just about any character and/or mechanics.)
Beyond that, knowing what these terms mean has cleared up a few old conversations- thanks!
I applied to Harvard as a high school drop out and they said "lmao what" and then I picked Zato=1 on character select screen and they made me the dean of students
Wait has it always been an equal sign
@@eddventure6214 yes
Then they kicked you out when a Venom main enters, right?
@@kingofthemoon3063 Venom is easyyyyyy
@@bashedayo6034 You would say that, you're a Zato=1 player
Jojo: a game where everyone is a puppet character
Jojo is interesting in that everyone kind of does it but there's one true puppet character who is kind of the father of the archetype in all games, and that's Devo. He really embodies the idea to the max since not a single one of his special moves is actually performed by him, they're all done by the doll instead.
Still Wish we got a JoJo game where you do something other than fight and Kill one another non stop.
A JoJo RPG (That gets rid of the annoying as Sin Turn Based Menu Dog vomit) would be most appreciated.
@Xander Vasquez they probably haven't played the game, just watched the anime which they learnt about from PewDiePie
There's literally character with three stances in HFTF. it's very odd.
@@SpeedKing.. have you forgotten tandem mode? And remote mode? Surprisingly there are only actually ten characters capable of tandem attack as there are quite a few passive stand users but even then that's just under than half of the cast having access to puppet character moves, although I can see what you mean if you say that their whole kit isn't based around being a puppet character. Otherwise if you simply forgot or didn't know about remote stand mode and tandem attack then it's kind of hypocritical that you are saying that nimaiiikun doesn't understand the game systems.
This’ll be helpful for my theoretical reworking of the cast of the Clayfighter series. Thanks for making this.
Subbed due to the fantastic video essay. Keep it up mate! I like your style
“The only real example of a composite character is...”
*shows not Shang Tsung*
this guy gets it
The disrespect man... 😔
Mokujin fron Tekken was my guess
or chameleon
I’m so glad someone else saw it.
“And a mix-up character is...” everyone in MKX
I love mkx
@@lord_frieza4535 Same, I love the mixups
and that's why MKX is the greatest
It’s the basis of MK period !
@@smokesenju3112 high, low, high, low, high high, low, high, low low throw.
2:10 shoto
3:00 grappler
4:12 zoner
6:08 rushdown
7:35 puppet
8:56 stance
10:08 composite
11:24 mix-up
12:23 gimmick
10:36 setplay
As a Soul Calibur player, I was waiting for even a single example from the series and was mildly surprised when Necrid from Soul Calibur 2 wasn't mentioned for a composite character since it's a perfect example.
This is the first time I've heard of Mario being called a Shoto, but it makes perfect sense.
“Honest normals”
@@Snowballsage _Up-tilt_
...in smash 4. Up tilt really got nuked in ultimate, probably a bit too much honestly.
@@tuckaris5499 perhaps, but Mario is still a VERY good character in Ultimate.
@@AZSprocket Yeah a character shouln't be good because one move, and Mario is the embodiment of an all-rounder.
"everyone from dragon ball fighterz"
Freeza: "Am I a joke to you"
Everyone knowing Frieza's place on the tier list: Yes
He does that shit too, you wanna use discs to stay plus and get in, he has good stagger pressure inside but his mix is weak af. Source: am one of a dozen Frieza players in the world.
@@goldenhydreigon4727 Frieza, at least now, is a B tier, being conservative, and is probably an A or S tier, probably high A.
@@Sir_Isaac_Newton_ Literally not true, the only thing Frieza has is damage and loops, which is only available in Golden Form as well as his Golden Form only being usable ONCE a match.
@@goldenhydreigon4727 tiers dont matter, a good player is a good player
this video is severely underrated. as i rewatched this video, i began to notice even more details and effort put into this video. big ups
Great analysis and breakdown of each fighting style. 👍🏾
hey there, i’m a college student writing a formal paper breaking down the logic of fighting games. i’m allowed to use 2 non academic sources and i chose this video as one of mine. i gotta say this video is rlly well made and helped me a lot during this paper.
How'd the paper go
We need update
@@enigmat05 He passed away
@@Bullschromp oh
@@bryannaing6316 got a 95 on it my professor liked it a lot
2:10 Shoto
3:00 Grappler
4:14 Zoner
6:08 Rushdown
7:34 Puppet
8:58 Stance
10:08 Composite
11:16 Mixup
12:20 Gimick
13:28 Setplay
Thank you for this. It wouldn't kill the guy who made the video to leave timestamps on his description or PIN you comment. It's like he wants everyone to watch his video from beginning to end. I know, no duh.
@@christhechilled Maybe that's because this comment came out 6 months after the video did??
@@claraparker4807 You’re acting like CZcamsrs don’t put time stamps in before they upload the video.
@SANS_YT because i said so
Technically all tekken is all stance characters
If only there was like... a wiki that broke down every/most every fighting game character like this. That would be a great study asset.
Would Riptor and Saberwulf from killer insinct be considered rushdown? and would Liu Kang from MK be considered shoto?
I know this is an old comment but most MK characters are Shotos, having good all-around options, one or more projectiles or teleport-based attacks, and benefit from different movement options
@@atomicwheeze8756 old but at least someone responded! thanks for that. I've always considered Scorpion to be a rushdown-shoto, as most of his combos, especially in 9/10 benefit from rush down playstyle, and keeping pressure on others.
@@navybr0wnie Oh yeah 100%, especially with strong mix-ups in the form of teleport, aerial teleport, and takedown, at least as of MKX. His spear also gives him a very powerful ranged option that covers near full-screen and punishes massively if not blocked. If his normals were better he’d be an absolute beast!
@@atomicwheeze8756 I know in MK11, if you had demon dash, and the spear extended skills you could get some solid hits in, I think i've gotten at least 12 hit kombo from it, douible down with a perfect meter burned TP, into overhead, and you could justr juggle the hell out of someone.
Always enjoyued scorpions overheads ngl.
@@atomicwheeze8756I’ve never played/watched a lot of mortal combat but do you think that the fact everyone is shoto-esque sort of changed the criteria?
Like if most characters have shoto aspects, the one who benefits the most from getting in would become the rushdown character within the game. Like if you transported them into street fighter they’d all be shotos, but within the context of their game the small differences define their archetype rather than the big ones?
I'm surprised that Blaze Blue was only on here once and for a brief moment since most of them are very easy to define, KoF is another game I would have used since they have some good examples in their though I did not play the game often. Loved the video never less
Okay so from what I learned:
-Shotos are the basic yet effective guys.
-Grapplers are (usually) big and will suplex you.
-Zoners like to remain far away from their opponents & hit them from afar.
-Rushdowns like to come close and punch you in the face.
-Puppets are like playing 2 characters at once.
-Stances are 2-in-1 archetype combo.
-Composites are a mix of every character.
-Mixups are meant to confuse the opponent in the match.
-Gimmicks play by their own rules because fuck the rules.
-Setplays have to setup everything before they can be considered a threat.
For real tho, I'm glad this video exists. I only know the bare minimum when it comes to character fighting archetypes & this video really helped me learn more about the other character archetypes I didn't know about.
Pretty much, although I’d say for setplay it’s more that the looming threat of letting them get set up is what defines the match.
Nice username btw lmao
thank you very much for the summary but that pfp got me wishing i didnt know what kirby superstar was
Most charters added after brawl for smash bros are gimmick characters in a sense
One more thing, charge characters are characters that have to charge their specials before they can use them(SF guile), or charge them to make them better(SG squigly)
@@eddventure6214 would Hero in Smash be considered a “gimmick” character considering the command selection?
he didn't include joke characters because they require an entirely separate video to explain whatever hellish mess they are.
SHINGO KICKU!
"GADOOOUUKEEEEN 😭"
I mean, joke characters are just bad versions of other archetypes (assuming they're actually bad and not just goofy.) Dan is just a Shit Shoto
Ken, Roll(MVC),Servbot, Pirhana Plant(until....)
Did goose Howard and Akuma in tekken 7 count as joke character
Leo being the face of rushdown hits the unga bunga on my brain
So informative and helpful, great video!!
I swear this video was made just for that “sol bad pie” joke
And what of it? :D
"the less flavoring, unga bunga-" god bless the unga, for not even god itself may stop it.
Flavoring?
Yep and say is say I will unga and most certainly bunga
flattering
it's been super interesting to think about this in the context of my personal favorite fighting game, Your Only Move is Hustle. it's cool how well some concepts do and don't apply to the game due to it's unique gameplay style.
Kakyoin in HFTF is both types of zoner at the same time and he has a bit of shoto aswell no wonder why he is so op
Not to mention a puppet fighter, but then again nearly everyone in that game is with some notable exceptions.
"shotos have... a good health pool"
*shows Akuma
i count 2 types of pupet characters, we see quite a lot of each and they rarely cross, puppet characters and projectile puppeteers?... im ignoring assist characters but anyways, puppet chara control 2 characters (the classic ones like Zato, and those BB characters) where progectile pupeteers command a small projectile separately, like Menat (SF) or Ms Fortune (SG) or Bridget (GG)
😂🤣😂
Uh
Glass cannon?
I mean, he's no regular shoto.
@@ultralowspekken maybe he isnt as much a glass cannon in all games, im more familiar with third strike and a few others
I just recalled i also separate both shoto and grappler archetypes into 2 each, game shoto, basic character with tools fitting for the game, if a gimmic is involved, its simple enough to be easy to pick up, still can be powerfull if mastered (ragna from blazblue, kazuya from tekken, and fillia from SG shows how diferent it can be from ryu) and classic shoto with the classic tools for the job, projectile, tatsu, shortu, eich work for classic situations but in some games these situations arent what makes the game, becoming familiar to outsiders but a gimmic fighter for the general cast (akuma on Tekken 7, master roshi from dbfz, or in other genres, soldier76 from overwatch or Victor from Paladins)
>Russian
>Big
>Loud
>Broken English
>Strong
Shows Zaria and Zangief, you sure you are not forgetting someone? Maybe someone that can outsmart bullet?
i mean, zarya and zangief fit that perfectly, except zarya doesnt really speak in broken english
Perhaps someone that has a degree in Russian literature?
Quite possibly a man with a huge “fuck off” gun?
Or perhaps someone who loves sandwiches very much?
See, he goes without mention ‘cause he’s just that famous.
I like trying to uses the archetypes to try to classify for honor heros, it's an interesting thought experiment trying to figure out how the archetypes fit in a game that has a lot of similar mechanics but very distinct differences.
Every character is the same in for honor tho and I’m a rep 70 shinobi
Lovely explanation, thanks for the video!
This video: Mario is a shoto
Also Mario: *Kills characters off of one combo* from a grab
This video: *Rushdowns have no good projectiles*
Also video: *shows Fox as an example*
@@goldenhydreigon4727
Lasers aren’t good projectiles, in Ultimate
In Melee they’re really good
Well lasers help reset foxs damage so it helps with something
@@goldenhydreigon4727 He did say most area mix of different archetypes. He thene described the quintessence of the archetype, but few characters will be purely one or another, so obviously some of the examples won't be perfect.
@@goldenhydreigon4727 Fox lasers suck ass since 2008
I never thought of Mario as a Shoto and I kinda hate the thought even though its technically perfectly accurate
I feel like every main character in a fighting game is a shoto
@@magillagorilla57 Jotaro?
@@floofbirb4436 never played any of the Jojo games, so maybe not him. Idk
@@magillagorilla57 so basically, jotaro always plays as a glass cannon rushdown.
@@floofbirb4436 oh, interesting
I want to thank you a lot. I have been a huge fan of fighting ganes since young and this vide has been a great help to understad more the comolex of this kind of games. I like it a lot🙌💖
Great video man, very well done 👍
I kept waiting for a KoF character to show up at some point, I guess the series is no longer popular, I feel old now.
KOF is niche in the USA. Capcom vs. SNK is about the closest to it being popular there.
@@NukeA6 oh, that explains it. The series was very popular in Latin America back during the late 90's and early 2000's.
No kof then i wont watch i guess
Best fighting game by far.
Well
Kof requires actual skill to Play
So not many touch it🤷
So, basically everyone in any netherrealm game is a mixup character.
I thought they were all zoners.
@@kevingriffith6011 that's injustice 2.
Lmao they're all premiere zoners
Everybody is a zoner.
Especially in injustice gods among us
Honoka from DoA would've been a good example for composite characters, i would almost say Edge Master from SCV too because he literally has the entire roster's styles, but he switches to a different character's moveset each round instead of having multiple different moves from other characters in one moveset, just like Mokujin from Tekken
Honoka was unironically the best composite character ever made when DoA5 dropped, no other fighting game perfected the playable high skill ceiling not broken archetype. I don't know how it stands today
Personally really like defensive type characters. Bonus points for counters/parries. Good examples of this being Hakumen from BlazBlue and Baiken from Guilty Gear
Just got this in my recommendations, commenting to provide that sweet sweet algorithm juice
My hero
Kenshiro
@@G0D777 i peeped that too
@@megaman5479 I see a man of hokuto as well👊
Based.
I was super surprised King from the tekken series wasnt in the grappler examples. He's usually the first person I think of when I think of throws in fighting games. Fantastic video!
Yeah, I was never a huge Tekken fan, but I was sure to include him on the bars to the side!
necrid from soul calibur would have been a good addition to the composit character list as well
Tekken really breaks the rules for his categories though. Throws work different too so which yeah king is 100% a grappler, he isn't what this video was referring to. I mean king has a running throw and his capital punishment gives you an uninteruptable giant swing on block so he has no difficulty getting in really
Also May Lee from King Of Fighters
@@TyRiders2 also Jhun. 3 damn stances
The one grappler that always comes into my mind is Goro Daimon
This vidéo is actualy insane. I noticed many things You said about anny archetypes. I am french so i firstly started so surch a video like this in my Language but i finaly used the subtitles and it help me because your english isn’t so difficult to understand. Thank you
Another pretty famous composite character: Dural from Virtua Fighter. I can highly recommend Virtua Fighter 5 if you haven't played it, it's still one hell of a fighting game. Very deep mechanics which reward skilled and tactical players.
Can't wait to see this guy grow.
When he earns enough for a new mic off this video hes gonna tripple his sub count in a week dude.
Well CZcams made some announcements today about how they will monetize videos... So it'll be an uphill battle for this guy.
That’s what she said.
@@SunChipss that's what i was gonna say lol
Agreed
And then Shulk just runs in and says *“I’LL TAKE YOUR ENTIRE STOCK”*
Changing to shield mid-combo go *BRRRRRRRR*
Composite character
he is THE stance character of smash
(well, I guess him and PKMN Trainer)
And, Pyra/Mythra too now I guess??????
Very informative, thank you. I'm dreadful at fighting games but have great respect for high level play.
It would have been nice if you included KOF characters too. I've never played guilty gear. Great video!
"Examples of a Set-Up Character would be-"
*Doesn't include Phoenix Wright from UMvC3*
He is a Set-up and Gimmick character with Stance
@@dantemzsz True. He requires set-up through gimmicks to change his stance(s)...
I recon he's not a mvc3 player as there are none in his examples.
That guy! It's wierd he even is there since he's just a lawyer!
Setplay architype:
Exist
Dan Fornase when making Rivals:
It's showtime
Dan is the goat
i love the longevity of mvsc2's bgm. may it never die.
I think Mewtwo/Shadow Mewtwo from Pokken Tournament counts as a Composite character. They have lots of moves from other characters, especially Shadow Mewtwo.
How could Shang Tsung not be mentioned as a composite character? He literally takes the soul of the characters he defeats.
And was probably the first one ever made as well
There's a lot of mortal kombat character he could've mentioned for several of the categories but didn't.
Well he was atleast on display around the border at 10:09
Until MK11 I'd say Shang was more of a stance character since he completely switches into those movesets rather than using multiple people's moves at once. However he didn't mention the OG composite character; Ogre/True Ogre.
@@General_Weebus a stance/composite character I love this mix as its very versatile but it can be hard since you have to beat tat the right moment and time to take abilities and do damage they way you should
I wanted to write a story based off fighting games and I needed to understand its archetypes. Thank you so much
@Groisu oh, I ended up having so many ideas that I had to put it aside because I am about to graduate. Thank you for the interest though
@@NIDELLANEUM we'll be here when you come back soldier.
@@NIDELLANEUM alright how is it now can you show me?
"This guy is burly, what do we do?"
"I know! Let's camp him out!"
i'll be here when you're ready dude
You gain a suscriber! Nice video essay.
Well I think that you forgot the king of all rushers, wolverine. This also reminded me when I was unlocking the Rosalina trophy on smash bross for 3ds, at the beginning it was one of the hardest characters, but once I dominated her air game and luma, it became one of my favorite characters.
"Stance characters"
* shows everyone from Tekken *
Always wondered if Mokujin counted as a composite character or just was made as a "Random bullshit go!" character
@@bigdog421 Not exactly! Compo characters are inherently diverse! See Seth from SF4.
@@johngr1747 then what exactly would mokujin classify as?
@@bigdog421 Any archetype that fits to the character he's mimicking! If he's mimicking Marduk he's a grappler, if he's mimicking Ling Xiayou he's stance and so on.
@@johngr1747 fair enough, so i guess just make a mimic category?
When I play Erron Black, I typically use him like a zoner, using Caltrops to keep my enemy away and Sand Trap to say "I said stay back!". He's also pretty good as a rushdown (Sand Slide is quick and hits low so you are able to utilize normal grapples along with Caltrops to slap hard). Also, in Killer Instinct, I feel like Fulgore is a gimmick character because he has a constantly regenerating "shadow" meter that speeds up as you do more stuff.
That sf3 Hugo theme for the grappler intro. Fitting.
Personally I would probably have split gimmick into pure gimmicks and resource characters as their own archetypes. I would also totally put Dizzy instead of Answer as an example of setplay lmao.
Dizzy is also kinda special, She sets up her gameplay only for next few seconds, actually all she needs is right fish, and position, dunno about Xrd one tho, haven't played her/against her very often.
That's why Answer was used as an example and not said to be the only setplay character in Xrd.
Dizzy is a zoner.
this is so helpful to me as an artist!! I'm going to start designing fighting game characters for a personal project soon and I love having this as a resource
Although I doubt I'll ever be able to use them since I can't program and also my ADD, but I appreciate being able to now identify what my fighting game-based characters would be, gameplay-wise!
i dont even play fighting games and yet you have intrigued me
After watching this I realise Beowulf from Skullgirls isn't just a grappler, but also a rushdown. He has a lot of options once he grabs you and Aa special that let's him do these one after another, while he also has moves to close the distance and then deal some serious damage.
Me, a non fighting game player there's: grapplers , zoners and the others.
Hangin' with the brothers, you'll be hooked on the brothers
This video is a service to the fighting game community - thanks and appreciation
Nice video ty edd
I showed my 4 daughters that LOVE Tekken this and now they kick my ass every time LOL.Thank you so much!
lmao
Dang that's tough 😂 good to see a family playing games together though 👏
@@UltimateTS64 he’s joking lmao
@@eddventure6214 oof, i actually believed it T_T
@@eddventure6214 oof, i actually believed it T_T
I think Ms. Fortune categorizes more as a rushdown character than an puppet one since all her tools are made go get in into the enemy's defenses.
the head only helps with that processes of keeping the enemy at bay and extending combos, not something you will rely to much as damage dealing method like other puppet characters
Am Ms. Fortune main, can confirm. Her pressure just with her normals and juggling potential is crazy good. And the head as a bowling/soccer ball is, when used well, great as an alternative opener to the opponent's defenses, as they not only have to focus on you, but your head bouncing around, too! As per hitbox rules, leaving it out makes for a secondary target, as the head can be knocked around at YOU if the opponent knows what's going on.
@Keith Pillsbury
No blazblue entries at all.
She a bit of both, but I think his bigger argument here is that each character is different percentages of each archetype to make them unique, the same way Leo is rush down & stance
My Friend has recently discovered they have some natural talent with Ms. fortune and let me tell you... my Big Band parry game HAD to be on point or else I was not going to get to play my turn. The pressure from his Fortune was insane.
Facts
I like this content. I'd love to see something about specific fighting games and their unique archetypes.
For composite characters, a possible candidate is Trinity from Mortal Kombat XL. Sure, he can only assume the abilities of 1 other character, but he has his own separate move set as well.
Shujinko
"Everyone in FighterZ is a rushdown char"
Android 16 grappling the air rn
I love how this can be applied to Devil May Cry characters too. From DMC4SE and DMC5SE:
Nero: is a clear Grappler type, with a Shoto sprinkle in it, that grapples enemies with his Devil Bringer and Buster moves to deal massive damage.
Dante: the strongest Stance character there is, with his multiple Styles, each absurdly strong at what it does.
Vergil: Easily a Rushdown character that focuses on absurd speed and fast moves;
V: Puppet character that controls up to 3 characters at once, weak physically, but with very strong attacks from his summons.
Lady: is a clear Zoner that keeps enemies at a distance with firearms;
Trish: has a mix of everything and isn't really good at anything in particular, exactly like a Shoto;
Now I want a DMC FG
The games even have motion inputs lmfao
DMC fighting game, when??
Nero is a shoto. He only has one grapple button.
What type of Character is Dante in Mvc3 then? homie has like 50 special moves.
Faust in strive is a zoner, grappler, summon, item, mixup, rng, setup, rushdown character that specializes in zoning and he's my favorite for that
This whole video showcases examples of Fighters From 4 games.
a deep dive into fighter architypes should include examples from most mainstream games of this genre aswell as some not so mainstream games. EI. Clay fighter, killer instinct, KoF(albeit much more legendary than guilty gear), MK, Tekken, powerstone, soul caliber, bloody roar, SS, to name a few.
the moment you said "or the less flattering, UNGA BUNGA playstyle" I WENT "YEAHHHHH LETS GOOO THATS ME"
"The only notable example of a composite character would be Double from Skullgirls."
Shang Tsung: "Am I a joke to you?"
Shang Tsung physically changes into other characters, not a character with all their moves *at once*
Mokujin from Tekken also is a good example
Ogre from Tekken is a good example of this
Honoka from DOA
The ones he mentions aren't the only ones in existence, he even show Shang Tsung on the side border when talking about composite characters.
Probably Raidou from DOA is the original "composite" character.
7:25 as someone who plays fighterz a lot, I felt that.
as 97% of my fighting game experience has come from dbfz and dbfz alone i can firmly say “if everyone is a rushdown, then nobody is”
Criminally underrated vid. As someone new to fighting games, the idea of characters being a ratio of multiple archetypes was very useful. I’d look at Makoto from SF3 and think “is she a zoner? Mixup? Rushdown?” But now I know it’s as simple as being a mix of that. Also very helpful when comparing characters across different games
I don't really see the zoner part in Makoto. I would say rushdown and mixup with just a zest of grappler
makoto is gimmick touch of stun :^)
I've always seen makoto as a rushdown + gimmick character (because of her insane stun output and how she can kill you from one grab) and her dash distance+speed that always feel like she belongs to another game. Awesome that you are playing 3s!!
I am honestly surprised that SNK got zero mention here.
i bet he didn't even know great games like KOF or SamSho
Same with Tekken
Well besides terry at the start but that's it
SNK AND Blazblue. Though BlaBlue at least got a Tager clip in the Grappling section. I found it hilarious that Blazblue had 2 characters that actually use mechanical dolls and he mentioned Rosalina and Luma over Carl and Relius Clover.
@@ninguemmesmo4890 Tekken was mentioned! King, Bob and Zafina are in the sides on the main parts of the explanations.
Thems Fighting Herds is a great game. Thx for putting it in the vid cuz it doesn’t get the respect it deserves
Bought MK11 on sale a few months ago and realized "Hey, I think I LOVE Fighting Games!!!!" then immediately followed that up with "Hey, I don't know ANYTHING about fighting games." A lot of tutorials get really nitty gritty right away, but THIS video is so amazing at breaking down the fundamentals of FIGHTING GAMES as a genre, making it so much easier to go back in and learn specific games
"The only example of a composite character is double." *Completely forgets Honoka from DOA, whose moveset is an amalgamation of every other character's moves*
Seth is completely different from Honoka! Honoka is just a martial artist whose style is made up of everything she knows, while Seth's style is just using all kinds of attacks, from projectiles to grapples! Compo characters on average are diverse!
@@johngr1747 I mean yes but they exist in two completely different universes so that is to be expected. All I was saying is that his description of what a composite character is would also fit the Honoka and a couple of other fighting game characters
i think this list is evidently exclusive to 2D fighting games, 3D fighting games like DOA or Tekken operate completely differently.
*And Piranha Plant in smash bros*
This man really brought up stance fighters without mentioning Yoshimitsu? Damn.
Or Lei Wulong?
Hell even Steve or Hwaorang
I don't think this guy has played/plays much of Tekken
He didn't mention a single Tekken character in the video which is odd considering it's one of the staples in the fighting game genre
@@DeeMulaah he shows examples on the sides of the screen
@@DeeMulaah even hwoarang is there
@@DeeMulaah He has King in the Grapplers and Zafina and Hwoarang in stance characters. I'm more upset he didn't put Ogre under Composite characters.
7:00
"Rushdown characters tend to have very fast buttons"
Chipp in the bottom left: having a stroke
I was just thinking the other day, before I saw this video, about how Overwatch's "thing" is the uniqueness of every character; it has a very high proportion of "gimmick characters" by your definition: having an ability that is _completely_ unique-
- Ana is the _only_ character that can *block* healing
- Moira is the _only_ character with a get-out-of-jail-free card [Wraith Form is "Fade at home"; come at me DPS players]
- Sombra is the _only_ character that can *disable* enemies' abilities
- Mei is the only character that can change the terrain
- D.Va is the only character who "changes stance" _instead of_ *dying*
- Lucio isn't even playing a first-person shooter; he's playing Tony Hawk's Mirror's Edge
- Likewise, Wrecking Ball is playing Katamari Damacy half the time
- Baptiste has a deployable _immortality_ field, for pete's sake