The Two Types of Gamers (Honers vs. Innovators)
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- čas přidán 31. 05. 2024
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Sources:
Richard Garfield on honers, innovators, and champions: www.vice.com/en/article/kwpbg...
Chess En Passant Rule: • En Passant | How to Pl...
Magnus Carlsen's insane memory: • Magnus Carlsen's Mind-...
Korean Goinmul reference: • 프로들조차 경악하는 은둔형 23년 고인물들은
Jwong vs Roundhouse $10,000 MvC2 money match: www.eventhubs.com/news/2021/s...
Tominaga Touch of Death: • Makoto Touch of Death
Ryan Hart beasting with parry: • Ryan Hart SF3 Parry Co...
Ono on Third Strike execution gap: www.eventhubs.com/news/2019/o...
Ono on turn-based Street Fighter 4: www.eventhubs.com/news/2019/o...
If you don't know, you gotta get hit: • Tekken 6 Kuma combo
Bobby Fischer interview on Johnny Carson: • Bobby Fischer solves a...
Fischer Random Chess (Chess960): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer...
Monopoly Rules Everyone Gets Wrong: www.businessinsider.com/monop...
Jiyuna's Request: • Making The Online Figh...
Atlantic article about Bobby Fischer: www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...
Zain vs Mango Summit 2021 Grand Finals: • Zain vs Mang0 - GRAND ...
The Mind Behind Dark Souls: www.ign.com/articles/2011/11/...
Most Expensive Chess Set: www.luxuriousmagazine.com/pea...
BGM in order:
Tekken 5: DR - Festival (Twist & Scream)
Tekken 5 - Moonlit Wilderness
Samurai Shodown (2019) - French Lady
Stronghold - Under and Old Tree
Starcraft - Terran Theme
Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike - Makoto Theme
Street Fighter 3: 2nd Impact - Alex Theme
John Harrison with the Wichita State University - Vivaldi Four Seasons Winter
Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike - Intro
Marvel vs Capcom 2 - Clock Tower Stage
Tekken 3 - Kuma Theme
Tekken 7 - Poolside Remix
Rising Thunder - Edge Theme
Gerald Lee - Dreamland - Hry
What percent honer and what percent innovator are you?
i think most people like doing both, unless youre a casual and dont like doing either! XD
Zero percent
I don't play fighting games
I'm a honer first, then become an innovator when my skill peaks.
@@tchitchouan Is chess a fighting game? Demon's Souls? Did you even watch the video?
75% innovator, 25% honer. I don't like grinding in training mode.
"In Chess... there are no DLC pieces that throw Air Fireballs. "
Overly Ambitious Chess Game Developer: "You mean *YET.* "
there's already pseudo-DLC's like Fog-of-War and Four-Way, no we'll just have to wait for Queens throwing fireballs xD
I Feel attacked for using geese more on tekken then a regular kof game lol
5d chess is a thing...
you clearly haven't heard of Chess Evolved lol
If I had friends I'd like to invent a chess variant where you have to buy the peices using playing cards.
So you play like go fish or something to earn the cards.
(Feel free to stop reading I'm about to go into detail about the rules of a game you'll probably never play)
I'd prefer to adapt the movement to use on a hex tiled playing surface. Use colored rubber bands to differentiate peices. And I know I said go fish but that's just for simplicity's sake. Ideally I'd want to have two visually different decks so you have a hand that you play uno with then you have a plie that is cards you've earned and then you have a line up of cards you're ready to play.
If you make someone draw you add one card to your pile. if you go out you add seven cards to your pile. And when its someone else's turn you can move one card from your pile to your line up or from your line up to your pile or switch a card from your line up with one in your pile. They don't have to wait on you for this it's up to you to make it happen while it's still their turn. you can only have seven cards in your line up and they all have to be face up so the other players know what moves are possible. You cannot move cards to your line up during your own turn.
On your turn It goes uno first then spawn peices then move. There are many value systems for what each chess peice is worth Use whichever one you like as long as the table is using the same one numbers are worth their number faces are worth 11 12 & 13. An ace can be turned in for a bishop instead of spent as one point. if you use a jack to spawn a knight you get a free pawn if you use a queen to spawn a queen you get two free pawns and if you use a king to spawn a pawn the king becomes surrounded buy pawns. (Maybe that last one should be a rook idk)
Kings start out exposed and you have to build up around them.
"At this point you're just fossil fuel"
Can we talk about how that line was raw as fuck LMAO
czcams.com/video/LmfbeqOUcbc/video.html
GAGAGAGAGAGA! I will now count to 3 and then I am still the unprettiest CZcamsr of all time. 1...2...3. GAGAGAGAGAGA!!! Thank you for your attention, dear na
After seeing some Korean Dota 2 commentary, this doesn't surprise me.
Lmao I was thinking the same that was so good
@@graylienz8317 naw it was quite well done
Life of an innovator:
1. Find a new game and mess around.
2. Speedrun the leaderboard.
3. Honer beats you with your own strategies.
4. Find another new game.
Yeah I was that way but with fall guys idc who wins I just enjoy playing and getting better at it for me
@@Padlock_Steve what a gross thing to say
As an innovator married to a honer, it always end ups as “there’s this cool new game out let’s play it together” and while they pump in hours of pure gameplay experience I’m over here absorbing knowledge and asking “can this effect that?” And then testing it out and when it works I show it off and boom the honer adds that to their toolkit and we continue like that until a new game catches our fancy
4 complain untill developer mskes the game so easy no ammount of extra skill means anything.
5 having taken away fun from everyone, leave the fame anyway.
The casual
When an innovator and a honey pair together you have an unstoppable force, even in solo games, where the innovator finds all the hidden mechanics and interactions, you have the honor that perfects them but wouldn't find those themself. Like me in runescape, I find new busted interactions, spend as much time playing as I do wiki'ing items I have yet to mess with, and what I discover I relay to my brother who is a honer, who actually is good at the game and can properly utilize what I find out.
Honers and Innovators tend to be in a mutually beneficial arrangement. Innovators find new and crazier techniques, so Honers have new things to practice and master, and then they take those things to the extremes.
A good example of this is speedrunning. While speedrunning is usually known for it's Honing aspect, it's the innovators that bring in new strategies and use TAS to find possible shorter times and further brake the game.
This right here is why speedrunning is blowing up the last few years. It's a virtuous cycle instead of a death spiral. Creating balance in your game is the most important thing to its longevity. Speedrunning is really its own game that uses certain video games as its medium: Do X as fast as possible (usually beat the game, but not always).
The honers and innovators each have their place and feed each others successes, and those who are good at both tend to achieve more WR runs in more games, faster.
Honer may as well be an innovator since they tried many times and might come up with some idea. I just cant understand how people do same thing over and over...
And what do the innovator get from this? It's more of a parasitic relationship, where the innovators quit as the fun is gone
@@hanneskarlbom6644 The innovators don't think so. Many of them also speedrun, but there are some people who are just sequence-break specialists. The journey of discovery is where they get their enjoyment.
@@TheSolitaryEye dosen't change the fact they don't get abything from it. -_-
2:01 _"At this point, you're just fossil fuel"_
It's amazing how you can both insult and compliment someone in one sentence.
I absolutely died when he said that. Makes me sad I don't understand Korean so I can watch more of this godlike commentary.
czcams.com/video/LmfbeqOUcbc/video.html
Just tradeoffs, my man.
It all evens out.
이 정됴면 그냥 석유죠 석유 XD
chess player: “If the opponent's pawn moved 2 spaces the last turn, and you can attack the space behind the pawn, you can capture that pawn en passant”
video game player: “When a pawn moves 2 spaces, the hitbox gets wonky for the next turn”
It's just a disjoint tech is all.
Making me think of TierZoo’s videos.
En passant, something I did by accident playing a chess app, and couldn't figure out how to repeat it for a long time.
Bruh it's a fuzzy guard break.
@@maxspecs the Chess biome meta
3:48 dick tree getting to level 99 in the first reactor is the absolute last reference i expected to see here
100% scrolled down to see if anyone commented this before posting it myself LOL
I... didn't get the ref.
Such a subtle reference too!
I think the reason why Daigo's career was so fruitful was because he was both a honer and innovator. He kept bringing new things to the table while almost perfecting the skills.
I just love when Core-A uploads everyone just turns in to kids when their favorite uncle comes back from a long trip and bring them back cool stuff
czcams.com/video/LmfbeqOUcbc/video.html
Relax dude you’re thinking too hard about it
Wake up babe, new Core-A Gaming analysis video
Damn i didnt know you watched core a
Why does everyone comments this on every single one of his video
@@mohamedbelbaali659 because he uploads every 14 years
Alright, I wake up DP. Did you block?
Had no idea you were into fighting games thats dope
I love this concept because I've thought about something that is very similar: the two types of writers, architects and gardeners.
Brief description of each:
An architect-writer is one that outlines the majority (if not all) of their story before writing.
A gardener-writer is one that cultivates an idea of theirs and sees what it grows into.
In my experience with writing, I've come to learn that both strategies are necessary to write a professional book. You need an outline to know how your story will end, and you need the story to play out naturally so it feels authentic. I think of it like a tomato plant growing within a cage.
But what's most amazing to me is, everyone is naturally both types. Our brains have left and right hemispheres, one side that is logical while the other is creative.
And that's what I see in this concept, honers and innovators. Honers systematically approach their game, delighting in the use of logical memorization, while innovators explore the boundaries of the game via creative spin-offs and rule changes.
Personally, I'm both types of gamers. I've spent my time studying chess openings, but I've also entertained myself with 4-player chess and Fog-of-War chess.
I think people go through cycles of which type they are. When we master a honed skill, we move onto a creative outlet until it's exhausted/satisfied. Then, we return to honing our skills and vice versa. I also think our life circumstances and emotional disposition affects this cycle. Because after all, our brains are what they are. Maybe some people are more logically-gifted than creatively or the other way around. Nonetheless, we are who we are, and it's great to be human.
Watching this made me realize why Multiplayer team FPS are the most popular online genre. They're super pick-up-&-play because they don't require much honing to play and still be able to win, and thus they manage to be entertaining enough without the need to innovate either. They're effectively anti-goinmul games.
@King of The Zinger watch out everyone, we have a badass
COUNTER STRIKE HAS ENTERED THE CHAT
@@KincaidCS2as one of the fps he described
3:50 Ah yes, the two flagship FF7 characters, Dick and Tree. My favorites.
So Cid (Dick) and Yuffie (Tree).
Not sure you're aware, but that footage has a LOT of history
the chad
@@Eichro exactly. I believe Cybershell already made a video about it.
Leveling up to 100 in first area of FF7
Core-A Gaming is back, baby! Let's go!!!
Boaaaaa 👌
Go Brazilian
Parabéns a você também monstro!!!
You're awesome as well.
Sempre ajudando a alavancar a FGC BR
vinicinhos rápido no mouse
When it comes to fighting games, I feel like there's a type of charatcer that works pretty well for the Innovator type: Zoners. Zoners are charatcers who's entire game plan is to use all of their tools to control the stage and keep you where they want you to be. This can often lead to interesting interactions where you use your attacks to condition the opponent to do something. For example, you can fire projectiles low, making it safer to be in the air. But the things is, you wanted them to jump in the air so you can punish then with an attack. A good Zoner charatcer can make a fighting game feel a lot more tactical as you constantly need to figure out how new strategies on the fly to deal with different players.
I actually believe zoners are absolutely key for improving. I basically only played against a young link (if you haven’t played ylink, he is generally considered very annoying to play against), for months, and that my experience taught me soo much about improvement. A lot more than when I was playing against rushdown and aggressive characters.
I think it’s why people get tilted against zoners, they don’t know how to find the fun because they just wanna play aggressively and combo, when the beauty fighting games often comes out the better you get at neutral. Zoners force your neutral to improve.
@@firstlast-wg2on Hard agree. Any type of 'spammy' opponent is absolutely wonderful for practicing because they put you in only one or two different types of situations for entire matches. All of my approach game in Smash was developed playing against people who used one specific type of move to keep me at arm's length, I barely improved at all when playing against more well-rounded opponents.
...That being said, I still infuriate my friends when I roll Mewtwo 'cause for some reason his wonky projectile path throws them off every damn time, and I have no idea how they haven't figured out how to avoid it. Half the time I toss it out wanting to bait them into the air, and they mistime their jump, somehow still getting hit and ruining my favourite little 'Whiff Shadow Ball into Shadow Claw' tool.
@@CoralCopperHead Just wait for when you play zoners who mix up all the time as well, that shit is a mentality waking call lol, but yeah, ai think I know the interaction you’re talking about, people tend to get flustered when they’re hit by the little shadow balls
The only zoner I Main is Link and Ssbu and I use all of the projectiles to throw my friends off and rush in to attack
Going on the Speed Running analogy, there was this exploit discovered for Pokemon Red and Blue that changed the way speed runs worked. If you talked to the bike shop owner and skipped through the messages using the b button, the text speed will be instant; saving you a lot of time in the process. But you lose this effect if you either heal your Pokemon through a poke center, open the start menu, or triggering a yes or no prompt. The community was so divided due to how different the strat had to be compared to an older run. So the community decided to ban the exploit in official runs and all runs that used the glitch were asterisked. It became its own category. But like Gerald said, change the game too much, and the honer leaves because they didn't sign up for that.
3:49 I'm surprised I immediately recognized that as that guy who leveled up to max level in the first room in FF7
I saw that and wondered what mad man would even attempt to do such a thing. I mean, I love level-grinding as much as the next hardcore FF fan, I even got MeteoRain and Satellite Beam in Reactor 1, but that's ridiculous.
That's not even honing, it's just a time sink lol
Same here lol
@@felman87 there’s a really interesting video on it. Two people were essentially racing to get to lvl 99 for YEARS
@@TheCvl25 yea by cybershell
I really like how Core-A Gaming concepts are related to other things outside of fighting games. It helps to strengthen the understanding of them!
Gerald is an absolute master at that. The art of teaching ("pedagogy" if you're a nerd) is not something that everyone is good at, and I always appreciate good pedagogy when I see it because most people won't even notice.
You can tell what Gerald's favorite fighting games are, but he never misses a beat when it comes to displaying how core fighting game concepts apply to even the wildest games in the genre. No community is left out.
Relating video game concepts to board games and sports is also an incredibly smart move to make sure every viewer is on the same page. What a guy, that Gerald!
@@QuintessentialWalrus So how much does pedagogy involve honing (knowing plenty about teaching and practice) and innovating (figuring out what applies better)?
czcams.com/video/LmfbeqOUcbc/video.html
It's what makes me likes the channel even though I don't care about fighting games
7:40
YOMI Hustle concept, pretty much.
There’s a third group: casual gamers who don’t take any of this too seriously. Sometimes I envy them.
As a casual myself, I feel like they also subconsciously fall under one of these group, they just have a lower limit on how how far they'll go into honing or innovating the game for themselves.
Sounds like me. I just realized Dead Or Alive is no competitive fighting game. Man I have fun playing that game. At least shit doesn't stress me out. I realized that when thinking in Tekken you have to master shit while in DOA you can just do whatever and have fun lmao
Back in the good old days where Ganondorf was the best character in smash. 13 million GSP later, it’s too late to go back. Enjoy it while you can
Fun fact: Part of the reason chess lasted so long was fairly regular rule changes. There was a time when pawns couldn't move two spaces on their first move, bishops could only move two spaces per turn, and the queen was the weakest piece in the game.
The reason checkers and mancala have so many variants
Many real world games and sports got "patched" through the ages. Basketball is a great example of that condensed.
@@CarbonRollerCaco exactly if I'm correct dribbling was originally looked at as passing to yourself
@@saiyanroyalty229 Core-A-Gaming talks about the history of dribbling in a different video, actually!
@@saiyanroyalty229 Didn’t Gerald mention that in one video?
5:11 "So how good can you get at parrying?"
I know for a fact that evo moment 37 immediately surfaced on everyones mind.
Let's go Justin
I love that he subverted expectations by using something else tbh. Giving the spotlight to one of the hundreds of great clips not getting as much views was a tasteful choice.
No it didn't, I have a life & imagine most people have too. Or at least to the next not to focus on the lore of foriegn niche Japanese video games.
@@levelup1279 Dude, he's just referencing something very recognizable in the fighting game community, in an attempt to be relatable...
There's no need to question a person's creativity over wanting to be relatable in a comment section on a topic they're passionate about. Unlike you, he's not attempting to shut people down or berate those who he disagrees with. He's just looking for others to relate too on a thought he felt was surefire. No need to be so spicy towards him. Your sense of individuality shouldn't feel attacked so easily XD
@@levelup1279 being passionate about something does not equate to not having a life. You got some ass backwards thought process and are the example of the mediocre trying to put down anyone who has something they care about. It shows the level of intellectual and emotional immaturity you have, that’s middle school shit. Also, wtf is “foreign niche Japanese video games” lol What you said makes zero sense both grammatically and, implying that 3S was a niche Japanese video game. It’s fucking street fighter for one and that moment happened at Evo 😂
As a life long fighting game player(I was a teen in the 90s and the legendary arcade scene was real) and someone who is fascinated with the study of neurology, the mastery of consistently landing “1 frame links” is something that I believe is one of the keys to unlocking the height of human potential.
This dichotomy is such a useful framing device for musicians (especially instrumentalists) too! Thank you.
I've only ever been good at one pvp game, but I found that playing "sub-optimally" was often a great way to play mind games with people. I could win matches I otherwise couldn't have by playing "optimally."
I don’t know anything about basketball and I recently played NBA 2k for the first time. My friends said I did better than some people they knew who knew all about basketball. I think this was the reason. I knew nothing about actual basketball rules or strategy so a lot of the stuff I did threw them off. I still lost, but that is expected.
Off-Meta players who know their kit will do much better than someone just sweating with the meta.
Meta: Zuko shooting lightning
Off-Meta: Zuko redirecting lightning
Those are usually called "Troll Strats" and they make honers so mad!
High level players are so used to playing 4D Mind Games that you can get away with doing the obvious sometimes
Wake up babe, new Core-A video
Damn, he's prompt
Jiyuna I love your vids ❤️
"Your welcome Jiyuna"
Damn he's fast
see you tomorrow at the viewing
I don't even play fighters, but I love this channel. You know it's official when you hit Rising Thunder Edge Theme.
I mean, I was searching for core games, but found something better. This video was so interesting! Thanks!
>Dislike the parry system for having an execution spike
>Create a game with one-frame link combos
Nailed it, Ono.
yeah but one frame links were far from mandatory at high level where as parry is a requirement
@@juhadexcelsior Not if your opponent also doesn’t know how to parry.
@@Tom-jw7ii then neither of you would be playing at high level lol
@@juhadexcelsior Oh, I misread your comment. I thought you said “until high level” or something like that.
@@Tom-jw7ii no problem
*There are two types of Gamers:*
1. Those who are awesome and is subscribed to Core-A Gaming
2. Those who do not even know about Core-A Gaming and is missing out on quality content
This was amazing, I learned so much about my self. When ever I got good at a game I’d allways find my self instead of playing on higher difficulty’s just giving my self handicaps (I.e. changing the rules) I never knew there was a label for that kind of person
I feel that this is the big problem with training modes in fighting games: they offer nothing in terms of helping you hone your skills.
I recently tried MK11, and this has been an experience in SF4, and MvC3 as well.
You go into the training mode, and the first few steps are incredibly basic: throw a punch, do a jump kick, block an attack.
Then you get something a little tricky: parry this attack, cancel this punch into a special.
These are all usually ok.
Then it suddenly jumps to: during crouch, parry this air attack with a jump punch and cancel into reversible special while charging your super.
And it offers zero feedback.
I never know what I'm doing wrong or how I'm supposed to do this super complicated series of moves.
It's not that I can't do it. I just don't even know what "it" is.
Yeah exactly, I was training in KOF15 yesterday for the first time and I seemed to be totally with the program until the game decided to throw me a curveball by introducing advanced cancelling techniques. I couldn't execute the for the life of me and I had no idea what I was doing wrong.
i had this exact same problem in skull girls actually
so true czcams.com/video/6ypg69--Svc/video.html
kof13 tutorial....
Playing fighters online is a nightmare. If only they brought back the fatal fury thing were the game told you a new special after each bonus game in singleplayer so it was digestible
As a musician I keep drawing comparisons to music, because I feel there are two similar approaches people take to music. In music of course we don't have different games, but we have different genres, and each genre, and each scene within them, comes with its own kind of balance between honing and innovating. If you play bebop or swing those are very much honer's genres of music, same thing if you play classical music from the Baroque, Classical and Romantic periods, the focus is on learning what sounds appropriate and perfecting it. If you play, for example, garage rock though, the focus shifts entirely, and you're thinking more in the line of "how am I going to express myself in a novel way" than "I need to master those scales and runs on my instrument". And of course there are some genres that have space for both and sometimes REQUIRE both, in rap and hip hop for example extremely technical rappers can coexist with very innovative ones, and innovation can come through technique and study or through novel styles. Jazz Fusion on the other hand usually requires that you have honed your chops before you can start innovating, even though it is a genre all about innovation. I'm not sure where I was going with this, but I think it's fascinating to think about.
as a musician wannabe, I loved to upvote your comment
There's that bunch who measure their progress in terms of the BPM on their metronome. I personally believe the best is to stay some where in the middle. Never neglect one side too much.
I'd extend the metaphor to languages as well. I speak multiple languages and am able to play several instruments. I would argue the skills are directly transferable between each other in that I need to divide my time between theory (techniques, grammar, execution) and spontaneity (improvisation, speaking, composing).
well said! bravo
Ik this is out of nowhere but do you happen to drumset and piano. Cuz i do and I’m musician and you just sound like someone whomplays those instruments to me. I’m probably nowhere close tho lmao
I’m glad core A gaming makes these videos, they go so deep into the science of esport competition it boggles my mind
czcams.com/video/LmfbeqOUcbc/video.html
How do i play the Pichu matchup? Please i have a tournament in 2 minutes
ayo?
I'm glad you make videos Ludvix
Luvdix
I always love videos like these, I apply the ideas and themes when I’m making music
Magic offers itself to both innovators and honers. Chance keeps each party entertained.
woah so cool to see you here, on a 9 months old video :o I think card games reward innovators much more than honers though. No matter how much you practice piloting, variance will always cap how good you can be, it's not like you can ever truly become unbeatable like in fighting games. On the other hand innovators have constant opportunities to find new tech, craft new archetypes, just in general being able to be unique rather than pursuing the one "optimal play".
"See you in Eternal Champions."
*I fucking love you.*
that was fucking epic
Am underrated classic I wanna see make a Comeback for the OST alone.
I main Trident with Larcen as my sub. Better use that taunt or you're taking 70%+ damage from one fireball -> spinning trident->throw combo.
It’s TIME! Everything gets pushed aside for Core-A! Happy to see another video dropped, Gerald. Thanks for taking the time to give the quality you believe in. It always comes through.
czcams.com/channels/UECwqJqORgNguLdAedHUYg.html
This is great! And I feel like this is a broader concept not just for fighting games but any human activity that requires skill and learning.
7:45 I was just thinking about this SCR 2010 match between Valle and Daigo the other week and then I come across it here again rewatching this video.
Back when I was spending my days doing Dark Souls 2 PvP, I came up with this concept and called the groups the mathematicians and the artists. The mathematicians try to bring their gameplay and characters to 100% efficiency, and the artists are trying to reach 110% by discovering something new, an advantage that is theirs and theirs alone.
Trying to be an artist was a losing proposition, because you are trying to find something no one is even missing, and if you actually did find it and reached 110%, the mathematicians would call that 110% the new 100% and master it. It wasn't for scrubs either because in order to discover the unknown, you needed to know everything that was already known. So in order to be an effective artist, you needed to be a master mathematicians already.
That's the nature of video games.
This works well in real life. No one lives to tell people about your secret technique. That's the trick though.
The best way to accomplish what you're looking for is to play games where you can mask what it is you're really doing.
Fair Warning: Story Time.
-------------
When I played Armored Core back in the day I had a combo technique that hid what I was actually doing. People always attributed my success to one weapon I brought along or another. But they never made the connection that my success relied on the unique combination of weapons together, and what I was doing with them. This is because the two attacks looked very similar in some ways.
Part of this involved my build, which was also off meta. I built robots which were very heavy and slow, and which could resist the ballistic type weapons most top tier players favored. I would use this to close in on them and ignore their fire at first, so I could get into optimal range for my attack to make sure it landed. I never told people this. I simply played like I wasn't good at dodging for the purpose of ensuring my own hit, often waiting until they were reloading to ensure they couldn't shoot back.
I did a missile / bazooka combo, making it so I could hide the bazooka shot in the missile cloud. The slower missiles are normally easier to dodge despite their homing ability. But the movement pattern left them vulnerable at close range to the bazooka's faster flight since it involved putting distance between us as opposed to moving to the side. The bazooka could not easily penetrate their mech's energy shields. But it hit hard enough to stun them. This let the missiles hit them entirely, with zero misses. Which rapidly depleted their HP and took down their shields. By the time the second bazooka shot came in they were just getting back up to speed, and with their shields down, the bazooka shots now did massive damage.
They could never see the bazooka shots coming because what's one shell shaped object with a fiery bloom behind it from all the rest? All they saw were missiles, and so when they tried to recreate what I was doing to have such a high success rate, they either picked the wrong weapons, or they never used the correct technique.
With this, I was able to climb the ranked ladder and often beat the top ranked players in the world. Not because I was a better pilot with better reaction times, but because I played what you'd call the role of the Artist, and I did so in a manner that the mathematicians could not see what I was doing.
These weapons were also completely against the meta, with the entire stable of top players often arguing you should NEVER use them. They all used similar builds with similar weapons. So, the upper tier mathematician types had no real experience playing against them since they last time they fought a player with them, they were still down in the lower ranks.
-----------------
So, the purpose of that story is to illustrate that while the artist initially seems like they are at a disadvantage, the reality is that what they're doing is just expanding the meta to make it harder for the mathematicians to always have a prepared counter in the meta. On top of that, much like how the mathematicians have a long road ahead of them to figure out what the best possible path is, the artist does too. Because it's not simply "picking something unusual and being good with it." It's so much more, as you can see. You don't need to be a mathematician, it helps, but I discovered my play style early on, as a joke build that turned out to be good. I was just having fun trying new novel ways to fight.
As you gain experience, you're always going to at least partially be mathematician. That's just natural. I think you should consider that gaining experience does not automatically make you the honer type, but that honing is inherent to the human condition, even when that's not the focus of what we're doing to have fun.
@@onigojira Pretty interesting history, it tells something deep about the human experience. Thank you!
Mathematicis it's all about creativity maybe you mean the engienners
Well said
@@onigojira thanks for putting a story warning after the read more button :(
It's interesting hearing you describe speedrunning as the peak of honing. As a speedrunner, one of the most enjoyable activities to me is finding new trucks and skips, in some way innovating on the established route and strategy. It does take a ton of knowledge, though, which is a kind of honing.
Yeah, it's pretty much what he talked about, by the fact that in some games, it's possible to really start innovating only after you've honed a lot.
I think speedrunning is very broad, but the example shown of SM64 (likely 16 star) is 99% execution. The category is so "figured out" that its down to performing everything perfect.
Now, something like Ocarina of Time is definitely a way different beast, especially when you go through the world record progression. Way more innovation there in recent years than there has been in SM64. But yes, I totally agree with you. There are games that lean way more into improving the route and techniques rather than just improving execution.
you can't become an innovator without serious time invested in honing first.
congratulations on doing the most pointless and degenerate act on human history
@@garbagelmao2730 homeboy why you upset, what happened, talk to me 💀
1:40 lmao I was thinking about Starcraft 1 when you talk about that, and you started its soundtrack in the background
good job. i have these concepts back in my mind as a competitive gamer in fighting games and starcraft back then. I also noticed this concept even RPG where one would find the most optimal gameplay and people would like it or not. I think it is best for honers to try out other games or genres, regardless of failure since people would find the depth of a particular game or genre pretty soon or simply abandon competitive gaming for one's good
This video has incredible pacing. I've rewatched it 3 times already simply because it flows so damn well.
That's all the honing they did with video pacing
yeah but the music is so damn loud
It's the music 😏
All core A videos man
You very concisely explained the feelings of people from both camps, and I felt myself relating the idea of having to hone a craft before being allowed to innovate to art. Good job as always.
I resonate with that too, in all that I do
@King of The Zinger Nice for you! I'm more of an innovator, but i pray to have your spirit when buying Street Fighter for the first time! Good Luck out there!
@King of The Zinger jmcrofts just uploaded a video on shield wars in Melty Blood, maybe you should check those out.
Definitely resonates with that old art staple "Master the fundamentals and then you can break them."
Nice topic. I'm for sure an innovator myself, I usually hone my mechanical skills just enough so I'm not really at a huge disadvantage (and if the floor for that is too high I'll burnout before that). The feeling of outsmarting someone, to me, is more fulfilling than being able to press a sequence of buttons in order. I find focusing only on honing lackluster as it means you'll keep on doing the same thing you already do (and that probably is what everyone else do), just better and better. I only look up for guides and what others do once I feel like I can't improve anymore by myself and need new source of info to keep on inovating.
As interesting as the whole video was, the main thing I took from this was 'Damn, while there's no way I'm ever learning Lei, but I want to try him out so badly now'. He just looks so fascinating.
I guess that also means I need to get Tekken. Which I was going to do anyway though.
Did you get it? How's life on tekken
@@viridibusoccult115 I did get it, yeah. Was very fun even though I didn't understand a thing of it, it's so different from the other FGs I play. plus my laptop broke and I haven't reinstalled it on my new one since I didn't want to have to do the 10 hour download again, so I haven't played it in like a year and tbh probably won't for a while since I don't have any other freinds who play it. Was very fun though, it's something that if I do redownload I want to at least attempt to learn properly. Maybe in a couple years if Tekken 8 goes on sale (and they add lei)
Roguelike deckbuilders & deckbuilding board games seem to cater to both honers(via knowing the cards & building up skill through repeated plays) and innovators(via figuring out combos as you play)
Deckbuilder gang rise up
So that’s why I like them so much!
XD
This video has finally helped me understand why even though I like fighting games in concept I always get bored of them while I can play Minecraft or Civilization for hundreds of hours
same, helped me find out a little more about myself lol.
I play games to catch a break from studying. But those games starting to demand more work than my study.
Fighting games used to a big passion of mine. I broke my wrist and dislocated my shoulder from an accident, I sold my fightstick and I've felt like its been over for a while. I started to play new games like guilty gear on pad, very casually just to play with with old friends. I truely believe I can never be what I thought, I could have been anymore. But after watching this video, I don't think any of that matters anymore. There's stories of blind, master swordsmen; BrolyLegs slaps people like LowTierGod, then I got no more excuses. I think it's time to pick up that sword and to continue to hone my blade. Thanks my guy, awesome video. Reminded me why I love fighting games so much.
MvC2 is experiencing not just a renaissance with the new ability to play online but also shout out to JWonggg and the innovators who put a fresh take on a decades old game with ratio rules.
Please explain how to I have been meaning to try this game for ages.
Honers can be terrifying to fight. Especially in long running franchises like Tekken where legacy skill is king. Yet innovators can also be terrifying to fight if they find really unorthodox ways to play. It's even sorta symbiotic between honers and innovators. Innovators discover something new or interesting and honers incorporate it in their arsenal.
czcams.com/video/LmfbeqOUcbc/video.html
It's the difference between "I can't get in on him!" and "I don't want to get in on him!"
Love how indepth these videos are, thank you for making them
great video. I appreciate any content creator who uses vocabulary to push the thinking into a higher meta level. The idea of honers and innovators is uber-meta. :)
In order to innovate something you first must understand it on some level. In my opinion the best innovations have come from people who are very well introduced with the subject and have partaken significantly in it to the point that they can be considered masters of their own. Just wanting to innovate, to change, with little to no investment in the subject tends to not pan out, as people generally either ignore you for your lack of engagement in that which you want to change, or criticise you for trying to change something you do not sufficiently understand because you have not engaged enough with it.
You need to know the rules to break them.
while that can be true in many cases there is still is a saying that goes: the best swordman in the world fears not the second best swordman, but that who never held a sword before
The problem arises when something is not designed to be understood, only memorized. Innovators have 100% interest in understanding the game, developing a mastery that allows them to explore uncharted territory (and using that new information to expand even further) - but exactly 0% interest in memorizing a chart of specific, predetermined in-out combinations. They're here to
The honer generally does little to no innovating because they're interested in being handed a set of instructions for the best possible way to play, and simply mastering their ability to do it faster and harder. The games that have a lot of room for innovation generally don't have a lot of honers in them at all, and any innovation that happens in communities dominated by honers is either wordlessly incorporated into the META or spat upon as "cheese" or "cheap gameplay". They don't want to innovate- they want to "master" and they can't "master" if the goalposts keep moving beyond their reach.
Mastery, as a concept, defies innovation and vice versa. Ask any "master" of something that isn't set in stone like a 20 year old video game and they'll tell you that the biggest part of their ability comes from the fact that they don't stop innovating. That any skill or knowledge they have came about as a byproduct of innovating, not sitting in a locked room studying.
Anything from a physics professor to a martial artist - the Honer style of approaching video games *only* works in video games, and that's why a lot of gamers have trouble in real life - despite games teaching important skills and ideals, **things aren't meant to be grinded until you're at the top** and the honer mindset doesn't understand that.
Yeah, I think innovators are given short-shrift in this video. They're mostly depicted as "dabblers" who are always seeking novelty, ignoring the other kind of innovators, like lab-rats and data-miners. I can literally take solo credit for discovering a unique mechanic in Smash Ultimate for Ness, although other innovators helped lab out new applications for it, and eventually top players like Gackt started using it in tournaments. And even though I'm not that GOOD at the game, I never could have made that discovery if I hadn't studied and examined the game's mechanics with a fine-toothed comb.
I've always said of my smash skills: "I'm never gonna be James Bond, but I *might* be Q one day (the dude who makes Bond's gadgets)". And that's a side of the "Honer vs Innovator" continuum that Core-A doesn't really even mention.
Yes, which funny enough I feel represents the video as well. Someone attempting to innovate with shallow understanding of the topics they've touched on. The line between honing and innovating is very fine. If you had to define it in this context, innovation would be to hone something that hasn't been honed before. The distinction is there but it's circular. Or if you want to go even more circular, you're honing your innovation skills. Or, If you're honing your skills, you often have to innovate yourself to accomplish that to overcome obstacles along the way. You can never truly seperate them.
His definition of innovation which you and other commentors have touched on is pretty much "too lazy to learn so I jump from one game to the next hoping the next one I'll magically be good at" or simply "has no interest in improving at a game and want to press buttons randomly till something happens". Which is an insult to the concept, and to someone who would go as far to identify with it.
I am being overly harsh but I am really surprised with the outpouring of positive comments for this video. It seems they've been expecting it for a long time. While to me it feels like another cliche mainstream pandering video "What type of person are YOU?! comment in the videos! " "It's not that you are bad and don't put in effort, you're just a unique innovator!" Which a significant amount of the casual populace would identify as (and there is no shame in that) but it's not a real distinction and it's not truly worthwhile.
The discussion is meaningful, but the weird attempt to frame it as a personality type thing was far too hard for me to ignore.
Also mad respect for showing off the EUD Metal Slug map! I'm thrilled that I was asked to help Blizzard enable support for those kinds of maps when they did Remastered
There's a story here, excuse me for asking, but who are you?
Same question as Fera Dose! Your comment seems fascinating and I absolutely want to know more about what you're talking about, if that's okay with you.
I also want to see the answer for the guys above.
Also mad respect for showing IRON MAN perform PROTON CANNON. "WITH MY COMMITMENT" ***INFINITY*** "PROTON. CANNON."
I was waiting for a video like this - SO WELL DONE, AWESOME
This was a great Video Essay! Fortnite comes to mind, theres lots of Honers [tournament players] and Innovators with the Custom gamemodes involved which there are MANY and very creative
To me, Goinmul games and "physical" Sports share the same root. The idea of a game with ubiquitous (relatively) unchanging rules so that everyone is on the same page.
Difference being is that eventually, in physical sports, your body can't keep up anymore and you retire. Obviously people retire in esports too but usually not for physical reasons. Theoretically an esports career could last a lifetime
@@sizzledan31 esports players will eventually need to retire due to things like reaction speed worsening over time... Or melee players destroying the ligaments in their hands
Theyre not on the same page then. Breaking apart mastery via randomness and live autohandicap would be required. "on the same page" How!? "but the rules are the same" And everyone's skills are the same!?
@@sizzledan31 players have retired due to worsening reaction time.
The "Tasteless playing Chess into Brood War mention" was perfect.
This video reminds me of the Johnny vs Spike archetype comparison, also from the Magic developers.
I was reminded of this at first, but then I figured that the innovators were more likely to be Spike/Johnny hybrids. The hybrids are more likely to seek a good new way to win, whereas the pure Johnnies are more likely to find a novel way to win that may or may not be good.
I found this gem video late, but I can relate to it so much! I know almost all the game references used. Thank you so much for this upload😍
I feel that this applies to life as well - some people are good at honing in on specific skills, others are best at coming up with new ideas
Love this channel, don't even play fighting games anymore lol
Hey ABD
@@moisteist8166 hello
You can love deez nuts
Hey ABD, been a while ;b
@@goldeneaglereborn lol it seems like you got 3 that likes em or possibly and more likely that luv those nutz.. You know what fuck it,make that 4 likes as of 1716hr 10/18/2021😂
Very interesting discussion, especially when applying it to chess, With so much of chess now being simulated through computers many simply follow what the bots say are the best openings and follow ups. Magnus Carlsen, the world chess champion for over 8 years straight, hates the current focus on memorization within chess so he actively explores openings deemed by computers to be “inferior” because he knows he’s not playing against computers. The strongest advantage you can have against someone in a fighting game is to be the one with more information for decision making. You may not be able to get anymore from them, but you can certainly decrease the amount they get from you.
very well said
czcams.com/video/LmfbeqOUcbc/video.html
Awesome material. It is really accurate and true analysis of this playing styles. I can even recognize which one my friends have.
Here I am watching this video again because it's so simply good and simple. It's the first video I saw from this channel if I remember correctly and it made me see the players' mentalities clearer. Keep up the good job Core-A Gaming.
So back when I played a ton of MTG, I was always more allured by standard and draft formats than commander or modern for this exact reason. I loved constantly being exposed to new cards because it meant we all had to adapt to new strategies and be able to build decks on the fly (especially with drafting). To me, this really gets to the heart of player IQ instead of who can put in the most time studying the META, and why I can't stick with a fighting game too closely for more than about a year. I love starting from scratch. So, I guess I'm an innovator?
Love your vids daryl, glad to see you here
Huh, I've always found weird new stuff in commander, and the same things over and over in standard.
I'm not rich enough for draft tho so I can't comment on it
I agree so much lol, draft formats are so fun to play and watch on both casual and competitive environments. There's a certain charm to the improvisation skills needed, while also allowing low performance units/cards to see high level play in a natural way (without needing developer interferance with balance patches, etc).
I despise draft so I guess I'm the opposite lol. Studying the meta and actually piloting/tweaking/sideboarding those decks right is what shows player IQ to me.
I just like finding wack cards and going “I wonder if I can make an entire deck around this?”
i feel like there's so much more that could be said, we need an hour long discussion!!
Fascinating video! This made me think of the randomizer vs speedrunner communities. randomizer players are innovators and the speedrunners are the honers. and it is awesome how/when the communities overlap at times.
okay, is time to play again
Yup
czcams.com/video/LmfbeqOUcbc/video.html
This video broke down something I didn't know about myself
I'm almost purely an innovator in anything that I'm not already good at. That's why I hop into new games so fast and analyse the shit out of them before feeling it has "nothing else to offer" and moving away.
Also I'm a huge fan of house rules. Id rather always play somebody in something we are both equally bad at than "prove myself to be bettee" by getting more practice
Also: Shmups, particularly "Danmaku" type! ✈👾 (though that is usually individual records CC, score, speed run, rather than vs play)
Been waiting but grateful for the video thank you guys
This channel is unreal, when i first subscribed i didn't imagined that a channel about Street Fight could be so creative and innovative (ironically) and so useful in many facets of life. It's a golden mine for anyone who wants to become a better thinker and competitor.
I couldn't avoid thinking about your video on learning (one of my favorite videos of all time by the way) and Gungi while watching this. I think that the concept of a "3rd (or more) dimension" created by slight changes in the game is the thing that fascinates me the most in a game.
Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild is a great singleplayer game for both Innovators and Honers. There is just so much you can master and yet so many things in it only an innovator could discover while playing.
stop
@@jadonplox no u
On some level, honing and innovation can be found in most singleplayer experiences. Honers in singleplayer games are usually speedrunners or minimalist challenge-run types. Innovators will usually be fond of more elaborate challenge-runs that present situations, where you need to find new solutions to problems. More importantly though, innovative types tend to be the kind that like glitches and exploits, either hunting for them from the game or finding interesting applications for such.
Yes! Playing through this now and priding myself on how I seem to solve most puzzles and encounters not at all the "correct" way but still very effectively! Lol
I bet it hurt your brain to think that far back.
Just here to say that Mango winning Summit this year was hella satisfying. thanks for including it.
I'm surprised when mentioning a middle ground between game styles he didn't mention absolver or toribash. They're literally
fighting games where you create your own attacks and combos.
absolver is the only fighting game i ever enjoyed so that makes sense
@@WhatTheFrogDoing If only the story mode only featured the intro of a fully fledged AAA game. Seriously, the game ended when I thought Act 1 of 3 was ending... Where are my other 2/3rds of the game?
In this house we drop everything once Core-A uploads a video
A Core A Gaming video is ALWAYS top tier content.
Just found this channel. Just realized there's a lot more to gaming and games than I thought. Love it!😃❤
What a good video man gonna play this alot of times
9:15
Man, that had my sides going into the stratosphere. That said, great content. Great to see you back
I've had an idea in my head for years now that I'm only just now taking seriously of trying to "gamify" the honing process for a fighting game. Create an RPG-like "story mode" in a fighting game that gradually introduces concepts as you progress through the game and asks you to develop on them over the course of the game. There are plenty of games that teach players incredibly complex systems through their story mode, why not fighting games?
SfV has an interesting idea in that direction. Some of the story mode enemies have very high health, but reverse combo scaling, so they can eat a huge number of jabs, but any bnb will make them crumple like paper. If monster hunter taught me anything, if you combine that with an incentive to grind, even the most casual players will quickly, and almost naturally, learn how to do a fuckin' infinite.
@@RemoteIslandSyndrome I feel like Them's Fightin Herds comes closer but doesn't stick the landing. They use a similar concept of NPC fighters, but they have an enemy whose sole purpose is to teach people how to anti-air, and they explain it to you before you fight them. Trouble is that they don't follow-through. Maybe that'll change when they drop the rest of the story mode.
Its budget and most likely, GREED. Game companies have been on the trend of "creating games with little effort as possible and force fans to give them $$$ as much as possible" for a decade now. Its kinda been the norm of gaming in general .
@@adamh4h4 gotta get those indie studios
Just finding this channel! What a treat! Thank you(:
This video was amazing!
This will help me so much while I desighn my dream game. A game that, kind of satisfies everyone be Honer or Innovator.
If that's going to be a fighting game, I wish you luck.
It's nearly impossible to make a FG that can reward Innovators equally as much as Honers, while also maintaining a sufficient active playerbase for matchmaking to function properly for all skill levels.
it's been really awesome to see the progression of your work over the years. you started out really just analyzing street fighter concepts, then you branched out to more general fighting game concepts, and now your perspective is widened even more to just general ideas of being competitive in any game, electronic or not. keep up the awesome work sir
I'd say Melee still feels somewhat like an innovator's game due to how "analogue" it is. You land the same move but get a different outcome depending on damage% and DI, so it values improvisation.
With how old the game is, if you want to get good fast then I think it's more effective to be a honer, practicing tech skill and taking people's advice. But I think you could also keep these activities to a minimum (not zero) and improve at a decent rate by playing and paying attention, which isn't the case with every game.
I don't thknk it was even honed. Hbox was winning with Puff and Armada had Peach. Now Axe and Wizrobe are showing us that Pikachu and Cpt Falcon are legit. However, that still doesn't stop wavedashing and L canceling from being mandatory knowledge.
Melee is the best example I can think of for an innovating fighting game, even though it still requires plenty of honing. (Though you don't have to hone much before you can start low level innovating, which is cool).
I remember a quote from Mango, something like, '[Someone] said this shine I did was frame perfect. I don't know what frame perfect means, but I like the way it sounds.'
I love how Mango is able to be one of the best players by playing with his gut and his heart more so than his mind (though his mind is quite smart in some ways).
I think that's why the community oversimplifies the ruleset: because there really is so much going on already.
the problem with Melee is the complete lack of input buffer. It makes the things you do have to hone way harder to hone than they really should be, and is the one and only thing that pushes me away from melee and towards other platform fighters like RoA or recently, even NASB.
@@3eve0n agree completely, RoA input buffer and things like much shorter dash turnaround animation make it feel much nicer, especially starting out.
And perhaps RoA's emphasis on stage control mechanics that can be used in unexpected ways also makes it more of an innovator's game.
Everytime I watch a Core-a Gaming video, it's like I'm in my favorite class listening to my favorite professor.
The more sophisticated way of saying “play with your head vs play with your heart”
your video is so good i want to learn more about fighting game now
The primer on 3rd Strike parrying and such was so good, I sent it to my friend who I before tried to explain Evo Moment 37 to (which is hard to explain to somebody who doesn't know fighting games how amazing it was). After he watched the 3rd strike portion of this video, he watched moment 37 again and totally understood it. Damn good video.
Sums up Core-A Gaming videos to a tee. Hope you find a fighting game that you find really fun. :)
I'm sure Core-A will be very happy to hear that
This is the most underrated youtube channel of all time
I started to play and learn GG Strive and upon learning some basic BnBs with Millia I stopped and spent around 10 minutes trying stuff and actually found a combo that isn’t on dustloop. I felt very happy. And also got BlazBlue Central Fiction just to better my execution as a player and to be more comfortable and faster on my stick
8:40 Reminds me of "5D Chess With Multiverse Time Travel", which is extremely fun, but also a bit overwhelming.
wow, this was eye opening. thank you. ive been wondering why i was drawn to smaller games that havent been fully solved yet and kept game hopping. ive peaked really hard in some games but still felt chored whenever i tried to move even further up. the practice and attentiveness that is required just robs me of the last bit of fun and i quickly realized that my passion fueled 10+ hour gaming days were unsustainable like this. im not complaining, it helped me break free from addiction and with the realization ive drawn from this video im starting to understand that me Quittung in T3 was not weakness but my brain telling me that it’s not meant to be.
I love how broad this can be taken. It explains a lot of why people enjoy games in general. Learning technical skill, game knowledge and the pay off is successfully applying that. This really helped me understand why I enjoy card games so much while randomized there's a lot of background knowledge for things like meta, interactions, technical play ect..
Just discovered this channel. Some really impressive thought and research went into these videos from you guys. I am very impressed. Well done, you have earned my sub and likes.
Very insightful video. Ended up enjoying it more than I expected. I am definitely more of a honer, and the fact that you brought up Eternal Champions lol subbed