This Rossi 44 Mag is . . . Disappointing?
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- čas přidán 23. 09. 2022
- Otherwise a great gun, I was disappointed with two things about this Rossi 44 Magnum. One I knew about up front and that's on me. The other . . . well, I need your help in understanding.
- Zábava
Might be the burn rate of the powder, and whether the longer barrel can take advantage of a longer burn time. Your handloads may be using faster powder than some of the OEM ammo, so the longer barrel is just increasing drag.
That seems to be the most likely candidate. Thanks!
When you look at the results from Ballistics by the inch, they tested four different .44 mag factory loads and all of them plateau at only around 14 inches of barrel length. Most factory loads are probably made for revolvers with fast burning powders for short barrels. Have you tried rifle powders?
I agree. It could be a combination of both.
The 44 special might reverse the velocity gain coming out faster from the shorter barrel. They have less and faster powder.
@@samwilliams1142 Quite possible. If have 3 44 Mags, a 4" Taurus T44, a 7.5" Super Blackhawk, and a 20" Marlin 1894. I have found that faster powders work best in the T44 with less flash and sooting out of the barrel ports, and the hotter powders like the Marlin best. The SBH likes everything, lol. Using a near max W296 load under a 200 gr XTP resulted in 1950-2000 fls out of the Marlin and just under 1600 in the SBH. Backed off of the load as I think both velocities may be too hot for the bullets. Not to mention the recoil for the SBH is pretty stout. Won't even try them in the T44, as it is 10 oz lighter than the SBH, which already recoils very hard with these loads. One thing about handloading is you can find the powder/bullet combos that are most efficient in your own guns.
I bought the same rifle 20 years ago...Still have it, BUT when I got it, even as new it needed a lot of work to smooth the action down. It was very rouigh, very stiff and it even pulled a cartridge apart on extraction. Sent it off to a first class smith in Tesas who smoothed it up for Cowboy action, Runs like a champ now. Action is smooth and even feeling, Plain open sights are spot on.
The minor blems you pointed out are... less than you're going to give it yourself just shooting and handling... I reckon. And as to the velocities, I don't find that disappointing. The 44 Mag after all is a pistol round and the propellants for it are pretty quick burning = just not a long enough burn to take advantage of the longer barrel length. The loads that did go faster probably had slower burning powder. Just a guess. Another great vid ! Keep em coming!
Put a wet wash cloth on the dents in wood and briefly put a steam iron on the area, careful not to over heat. The steam from the wet cloth will raise the damaged area maybe enough to touch up the finish
That trick has worked on several different gun stocks.
Larry Potterfield from Midway has a good video showing that.
You won't regret getting a Marble Arms tang sight. They have positive windage & elevation adjustments. I have installed the taller stem on mine for My Uberti 1873 rifle in 44 WCF. That rifle has a 30" barrel & that sight has allowed me to make numerous very precise shots exceeding 300 yards. I appreciate watching your Videos. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for your comment, especially the feedback on the Tang site. I think it will be fun to lob 44 caliber bullets out to Extended ranges. Seems like an evening of relaxing shooting. Possibly from a comfortable chair, possibly with cool beverage by my side😉
Wow! How are loading that 44 WCF? I'm running 200 gr. cast over 6 gr. 700x. I'm still getting used to the rifle, shooting about 4" at 100 yds.
@@wdtaut5650 Unique powder works very well but I get my best accuracy with Bullseye. You'll have to determine how much is appropriate for your needs.
I have one of those on my Rossi 357 with a 16 inch barrel, dings a ten inch plate at 100 yards easily, that's all I need from it.
+1 for the Marble Arms tang sight - I run one on my little Miroku 44 Mag 16" Take down 1892 - the taller stem is a must. Even with my minuscule barrel length I recorded 1997 f/s using a XTP 180gr in front of 27.5gr of H110 - thanks for your videos.
I just about snarfed my coffee when I heard "if you haven't checked out my shorts, please do" lol. I half expected him to pop on screen with some James Reeves level shorts lol.
It was Shorts not shorts😉😄
I have the Rossi 357 20" and love it !
Sir, i love your rossi lever gun vids! and just also your love for lever actions in general gotta love the lever action !
Thanks!
Congratulatipm ons on your new rifle . I have used the Marble tang mounted peep sight for years with complete satisfaction. I have three mounted on various rifles. It sure nice when you need to make a windage change, to reach up and turn that knobs. Thanks for the video,George, much enjoyed!
You survived without the glasses! Simply miraculous!
Sorry to here about the finish and fit flaws with the Rossi. I have never been impressed with 44 special because the cost is close to the 44 magnum. I just use reduced loads in 44 mag brass and lead bullets for plinkers.
The big advantage of owning a 357 /38 special is lower cost and versatility. Lower recoil and enough power for deer , hogs , coyotes at closer wood and brush ranges. The 38 special is like a big 22 on small edible game like rabbits and squirrels. A 38 hole in and 38 hole out.
Nice video. For rifles I’d suggest trying H4227 with 240 or heavier projectiles. If you cast, a gas checked (or powder coat) 240 might be the ticket. Some lever guns don’t feed all types of semi was cutters.
I think it's momentum of a given load versus barrel friction, with an already nearly maxed out efficiency factor for this particular caliber and cartridge, sometimes favoring one barrel length for one powder and bullet selection/combination, and in other loadings favoring the other. I love your presentations, and the way you think! Usually similar to my own approach, and often taking it further and teaching me a lot! Thank you.
Hey George; according to a friend at "Remington Ammunition", typical gains/ losses equal 10fps per inch of barrel length. Of course, that +/- figure is only applicable to their ammunition. Other manufactures offer +/- figures in the 15fps range. All of this is predicated on hunting ammunition that I've asked specifically about and not to hot loaded specialty ammunition. Where the 25fps per inch "rule of thumb" comes from I am unaware and I've never heard, or read, anything other than anecdotal evidence, that supports the "rule". That is why I asked for your demonstration. I suspect we, collectively, will learn something about velocity data between 20" to 24" barrel performance that is contrary to the "rule" as we've been told over the years. As always, thank you very much for you hard work and keep up the excellent job. I never fail to learn something as I enjoy watching the video work you produce. P.S. I am really looking forward to the "impressionism" artwork.
Thanks for your input Gregory. I'm sure there's a lot of questions we won't answer but it's a fun Journey nonetheless. Speaking of Journeys, I'm really looking forward to the impressions series. I probably should have started smaller and worked up but with smaller cans and lighter loads it will still be interesting. Just on a little smaller scale😄
Hi George
I’ve just read about 400 comments, you may not get much F.P.S. Increase with the 24” barrel but my experience are that the loudness is decreased substantially compared to a 16” barrel 44 magnum. If you’re sitting at a bench in the back 40 lobbing a box of ammo, it may not make much of a difference since you’ll be wearing hearing protection but people a quarter mile away or deer during archery season may respond differently. Maybe.
I have a single shot CVA in 44 magnum that I use for hunting sometimes and I cut it down from 22 inches down to 16 1/2 inches to be able to get through thick brush and also fit in a small blind better. The CVA is very accurate but it is much louder than when it was at 22”.
Adding a different perspective ,Dave.
Thanks Dave. It's good to get a "fresh" response👍👍
When I cut the CVA 5.5” off of 22”. My near max loads of 300 grain copper with H110 printed a few inches lower at 200 yds.
I was guessing that it was mostly due to reduced fps. I don’t have a cronnie. Maybe barrel harmonics and muzzle crown are help effecting it printing lower.
@@davidedward13nothing wrong with your perspective but any rifle, regardless of how loud at the muzzle, unless it’s suppressed and shooting near subsonic loads, can/will spook game. Plus if you’re the only one in the woods trying to be quiet, it’s noble but no one else around you is going to care…they’re going to shoot whatever they brought…likely an inappropriate target gun in some hyper velocity cartridge with a tanker style muzzle brake on the end that shakes the forest and deafens all around it…to shoot a deer at 50 yards.
Hi George. If you’re thinking of installing a tang sight on that Rossi you might want to check the tang is in line with the barrel. I had a Marbles tang sight fitted to my Winchester 94 (.357) by a gunsmith and while it’s dead centre on the tang I have to almost run out of windage adjustment to get it to shoot to point of aim. The tangs are not always flat either, which can tilt the sight one way or t’other, but I’m sure you know all of this anyway. Always a pleasure to watch your videos.
Thank you for your comment! Actually I never would have thought about the Tang being out of alignment with the barrel. I'll check it out.
Drift the front sight. 👌
@@greybone777 Yes, I could do that, but it looks even weirder and more obvious with the front sight drifted well over to the left in its dovetail. As long as I have enough adjustment left on the rear sight I’ll stay with that. Thanks for your comment 👍
Have a 44mag Rossi 92 Silver in 20” that I’ve been shooting SASS for 10 years, and I love it. Action was a bit rough out of the box but I was able to smooth things out myself with a bit of judicious polishing here and there. Have to keep an eye on the side screws as they tend to loosed. Love this rifle, though my shooting buddies laugh at me cuz the 6” leather thong I have in the saddle ring gets caught in the hammer sometimes…but I ain’t takin it off…I likes it too much. BTW…added the saddle ring myself. Had it custom made to match the stainless finish…looks awesome!
I just got a new r92 357/38 octagon.The gun is perfect accept for 2 very small shadows in the bluing on one side , it is very hard to see. Other than that, the fit and finish is spot on.I am very pleased
That's fantastic. Congratulations. I think I have the same two shadows in the bluing.
Can’t really fault the gun for the disappointments you have. For the cosmetic stuff you could have walked away from the sale. Also, since you did not, it kind of shows why he would not come down on price. He clearly knew you were not willing to walk away from the sale over those cosmetic issues.
As far as the velocity, every load uses different powders with different burn rates which I’m sure you know. The only way to really use a 24” barrel length on a pistol caliber carbine for more velocity is hand loading with slower powders.
It seems to me that you've reached the point of diminished returns at 20" maybe with a slower burning powder with near capacity charge weights the extra 4" could exploit some unused energy. It also seems to me the with the lighter bullets with presumably higher velocity in the bore are able to utilize a little more time spent in the barrel to reach a more complete burn, thus reaching higher velocities at the muzzle.
Good thoughts! Thanks!
For looks though the octagon barrel is hard to beat
Enjoy your videos and had to laugh when you asked us to check out your shorts. 😂
Thanks for sharing George. This reinforces 20" as my favorite barrel length in a pistol cartridge rifle, for balance between usable powder burn/velocity, muzzle blast, mag capacity, and distance between the sights.
You are welcome. Yes my 20-in Barrel Winchester will still get the most love. This gun is going to be a relaxed casual shooter probably from a chair probably with a cold beverage nearby. Of course when I feature it on CZcams I will be much more serious😉
The octagon barrel is way better looking of the two!
I have an R92 and out of the box it was terrible. It cycled terribly and would constantly jam. I polished the feed ramp and removed all burrs from the action. Now it's my favorite rifle and it now it ALWAYS cycles buttery smooth.
Your story really had a great ending! I too will be doing a little internal work on this gun, mostly to make it load more easily. Thanks for watching!
I have the very same Rossi, love it. Your velocity disappointment is definitely a pressure issue with typical pistol powders. What powder did you use with those screaming Lehigh handloads? I tried a variety of existing loads when I got my Rossi. My 250 grain trailboss "mousefart" loads actually keyholed out of the Rossi, even though they shot true out of my 7.5" super Blackhawk and 10" contender barrels. I added the receiver peep to mine in place of the safety, got it from Steves Gunz. Only issue I had with the Rossi was that the magazine tube was sliding forward with my heavy loads. Was able to fix that with some JB Weld under the forearm.
About 11+ yrs ago I chronographed the Hornady 160gr LEVERevolution 30-30 ammo in my Marlin 20” barrel and my Winchester 24”. I shot 10 rounds through each of them and they both came out averaging 2465fps. As far as accuracy goes, the Marlin hated it and the Winchester loved it. To this day, from the bench and using a Williams Peep sight, I can still get 1.5” groups @100yds and I’ve taken a number of deer, a black bear and one cow elk with the Winchester.
So I wasn’t overly surprised with the first couple findings on your 44’s. The best I could figure out is the powder burn was completely done in my rifles and basically the bullet was only encountering friction on the last 4 inches in my Winchester.
Thanks. I really appreciate that comment. I too have had vastly different results with the Hornady FTX bullets. Some guns love them some hate them. But to their defense I have not done a definitive work to find out why. I just chose not to use them instead.
Had one long ago switched to Chiappa Alaskan 44Mag and its an extrem upgrade for me.... allready over 300shoots. (Here in Europe we dont get Winchester Marlin and co so easy..)
Best Ammo for Rossi is Magtech, surpise surprise...(same company) Also Magtech is often very hot loaded and the 44Mag is very hot))
Exactly what I was looking for. Local place has the 24" and a stainless 20" 44mag. The 20" barrel sure looks thin, maybe its just thinner to the 24" octagonal. Appreciate the comparison of several different brands in both barrel lengths.
"Take a look at your shorts" that shocked me for a second. Oh no, where is he going with this, Rossi underwear?
Haha! I won't make that mistake again I promise you😄
I love this channel. Probably bore and chamber dimensions vary. That volume may be enough to cause pressure drop on the long barrel. It makes sense to me that when everything is pushed to maximum, that is where you stand a chance of gaining from the extra length, as the time under pressure beats out the volume increase effect. Fantastic experiment, thank you.
Thank you. I appreciate your input! And thanks for watching!
Great demonstration. I always enjoy you programs, especially with the 1892 clones. My favorite lever gun although I shoot an 1873 a lot. George
Simple the choice of powder. If I load with a slower powder I get an increase. The rounds were loaded for handguns
Thanks for your comment. I don't know what powder is used in the factory ammo, but in the Berry's handloads as well as my XTP handloads I used A2400. That is not a handgun powder.
@@TargetSuite look it up on a relative burning chart and see if you have a slightly slower powder for that bullet
I did. And the powders that I use are the slowest called out in all of the reloading manuals for 44 mag out of a rifle.
@@TargetSuite Well, there is a limit to the slowest powder for every cartridge.. I would guess that the max barrel length for speed would be 20-22 inches. It is likely the 20 inches but the longer sight radius and other factors make up for the lower speed. BTW I love my tang sights. I even have one vernier one on a 45-70 Gov Rolling Block
Thanks for all your comments. And you hinted at what I'm thinking, and that is that this is not a performance rifle it is going to be a fun rifle to lob slow-moving heavy bullets at extended ranges. So the longer Barrel is helpful whether or not it's generating more velocity. And thanks for your comments about the Tang site. I suspect by the end of the day I'll have one on order😉
A Williams Receiver Sight makes those things shoot sooo good without having to worry about the sight dropping or putting your eye out.
I think you should slug the barrel and see if there’s a difference between the them, Second of all I think faster burning powder might not have as much velocity difference, Barnes bullets are generally very sore and we’ll expand up to fit the rifling quite easy and buffalo boar uses similar bullets that are soft copper however the Lee had the fence probably wouldn’t expand out and it got a really good increase, imagine part of your loss the difference is in some kind of bore diameter issue, if that’s not the case it’s merely the powder is all burning up before the bullet leaves the barrel
Those are great thoughts. One thing I've heard about Rossi's is that they have a larger chamber. That would account for a lower velocity but not one that is lower with some rounds but not others. But by the end of the day I will have slugged that Barrel and maybe slugged the bore as well. Thanks for your comment and if you will email me with some information about the custom plaques you make with the 50-110 I will share it.
My Rossi 92 44 slugged at 431.5. I size my cast bullets to .433. I match my powder burn to barrel length for optimal performance. AA #9 has performed the best for me in my 357 & 44 .
@Georgiaboy44 I got 8 lb of AA #9. Next reloads will be charged with that powder and I'll compare. Thanks!
@@georgiaboy4410 same issue on my Rossi, went with a .434 mold and .433 sizing die. JSP bullets “patterned” not grouped.
You just bought a rifle that was "pre-dinged" as the Tappert Brothers would say.
Haha! I like that. And coming pre-dinged sure does make those early trips to the range more relaxing😄
Thank you for the great information and content. Keep it up. God bless.
The issue with a perfect gun , the first nick is so painful . Pitty the person that makes the first ding if it's not You !! You hate to have any people touch it . Now , it came with the 1st & 2nt ding ... feel free to take out in the field or let other people shoot it , it will gain more battle scars & character with use & age !!
Oh yes. Having it pre-dinged is a plus😄 Trips to the range can be much more relaxing now.
I think the main differences in velocities across the board are due to the differences in the powders and the bullet weights used by the manufacturers. Since you are handloading it would be nice to see a test of a fast burning pistol powder, a medium burn rate powder and a slow burning rifle powder, using the same weight and manufacturer of bullet across the board for the test with the 20" and 24" barrell's. My loading manuals all list 44 magnum (pistol) and 44 magnum (rifle) seperately. I have read that the factory rounds are designed to work as best as they can be made to in both pistols and rifles. So I would guess the factory rounds use a medium burn rate powder that will function in both a pistol and a rifle. As a handloader you can tailor your recipie for either of the two. It would be my bet the long burning rifle powders would greatly outperform the pistol powders in either rifle but give an advantage in velocity to the 24" over the 20" barrel especially as you aproach the high end of the load charts. One thing I have noticed with handloding Berry's is that the copper plating is not sufficiently thick enough to prevent them from leading barrels when pushed to the higher end of the charts they are not copper jacketed they are electrolosis plated and should be loaded using the cast lead bullet chart not the jacketed bullet chart or staying on the low end of the jacketed bullet charts. Just my findings with having used Berry's in several pistols and rifles myself and leading several barrels up badly by pushing them too fast. They however are really great at lower velocities in both of my 500 magnum pistols and my 44 magnum pistols. I have not had good luck yet with them in my 44 Henry rifle and because of that I have not tried them in any other rifles mainly because I already have pet loads for them using jacketed bullets that I know perform well without leading up my barrels. I hate trying to clean lead out of barrels.
A bit of sarcasm here but I usually drop my new gun or bang it against something ON PURPOSE just to get it over with they all get banged up eventually if you actually use them. Why I prefer used stuff it already has character instead of perfection. Good enough for me.
Haha! I don't have to worry about that on this one. It comes pre-banged. When I first saw this gun at the store it was hanging on the wall. When I went back to buy it it was back on a counter and had some stuff piled around it. I'm pretty sure the damage happened at the gun store. But I really didn't care because I wanted it for personal use and to get this video out. I had promised this a long time ago.
I like the way your safety glasses are on top of your head 😂
Yes and unfortunately sometimes they're up there when the gun fires, doing me no good whatsoever😉
Hornady years ago publish velocity for there 45 Colt Leverevolution out of 5.5” barrel and 20”. The velocity wasn’t the significant increase I expected from a rifle so a called Hornady and one of there techs told me that the 45 Colt Leverevolution power charge was design specific for 45 Colt handguns. Basically he stated the load was running out of powder charge in. 20” barrel before it exited. I am would speculate that the cartridges your experiencing little velocity change with are maxed out in a 20” barrel and probably designed as a handgun load. Where as your hand loads, Buffalo Bore etc are loaded to max charges and have enough powder to be used in that 4” extra of barrel.
I think you have nailed it. There may also be some issues with chamber diameter and bore diameter but I think the biggest issue is how the cartridges were loaded.
I was a little uneasy seeing the headline of the video. Glad to find out the gun itself was ok, other than the nicks from the dealer. He should've at least given you a 10% discount!
Thanks for watching. The uneasy headline was intentional. It's just part of trying to get people's attention. And I agree the dealer could have made some concession, but he probably knew I was going to walk out with that gun regardless. I had been in to look at it before😉
@@TargetSuite Try the diversion tactic next time. Pick out something else to buy and then slip in the one you want for a discount. 😉
Why should the dealer discount it? These guns are in high demand.
@@jimcarney6115 Nothing ventured nothing gained. No harm in trying.
@@jimcarney6115 Heck, all they can do is to say, "No". Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Always worth a try, that's the fun of bargaining.
I have the Marbles tang on my Rossi 92 44 and love it I also installed a few Steve's Gunz parts and slickened up the action
Thanks for your comment. I plan to go down the same path you did with my rossi.
I think that if you believe that a 20" barrel is less efficient or has some disadvantage when compared to the 24" barrel, it will be pretty easy to prove your point. On the other side of the arguement I think you can make the same arguement and prove the same points. You just proved that you can make the Winchester dance to the same tune that you like to dance to with the Rossi. Both are fine weapons and the .44 magnum has been proven that it is a really great round to chamber a lever action rifle into. Those .44 Special cartridges left me thinking about when the old black powder rim fire and center fire cartridges were being slung out there towards hostile Indians. When the lead hit that steel target I could just imagine having one of those chunks of death slamming into any part of his body. Even as slow as we are judging those bullets to be, at the time, I guarantee that somebody shooting at you with a .44 Special will get your attention, Quickly!
Yep. That is a big chunk of lead to be coming at you at any speed above about 100 ft per second😉
In some areas, a 4" increase is a big thing, when it comes to performance. Great video...thanks!
Higher velocity can play hob with your group size and accuracy (barrel harmonics/whip issue usually) , so it's not necessarily desirable.
I have 2 Rossi R92 carbines. One is stainless steel and the other is blued. Both are in 44 mag. The stainless version was perfect from the factory. The blued one left much to be desired. Even though it was brand new, like the stainless one, I ended up totally refinishing it. I case colored the receiver, butt plate, lever and barrel band. I refinished the barrel and mag tube. And I refinished the wood, changing it from light to dark. I also replaced the mag spring and follower with stainless steel parts. And finally, I replaced the springs with a custom kit. It looks beautiful! And like the stainless version, it's very accurate and dependable. I have had zero problems with both rifles. And considering they were both in the $500-600 range, I can't complain.
Thanks for your comment Paul. I plan to make a few mods to this one as well. I don't know about refinishing totally but it's going to be slicked up after a visit to Steve's Gunz.
Got mine in 2013 for about $400,00 to $450.00 out the door new. Don't know why I remember that price for. After I bought mine, year after in 2014 they changed hunting laws in my state, so they can use straight wall cartridges instead of a hunter using a typical shotgun or muzzle loader. Last I checked prices for the Rosi 92 in 44 mag this rifle is going for $600.00 to $800.00 in my area. Think that was sometime after the Floyd riots.
.44 Magnum is a pistol round. Typically pistol rounds are designed around short barrels. I know that a 9mm, for example, increases velocity in longer barrels up to about 12 inches, then it starts to slow down, the powder being burned, the extra barrel length just adds friction. I suspect you could tailor a powder/bullet combination for a slower burn to optimize the longer barrel.
You hit the nail on the head. And I will try to find a powder bullet combo that will utilize more of that Barrel length. But slower burning powders typically don't pack enough energy by volume to offer an advantage in the small space allotted by Pistol cartridges. But, that doesn't prevent me from trying😉
@@TargetSuite I have some right spicy loads out of an 1894 using W296 or A9.
Magnum rifle primer and IMR 4198.
Further proof that the .45 Colt is the ONLY way to go! :))) Either that, or the fact that most commercial loads are optimized for barrels shorter than 24 inches. I'll stick with the first hypothesis.
There's a joke in there somewhere about, "Hominy shots does it take George to blow up a can?"
From now on, you'll be known as, "Two-Can George."
Thanks for making this nearly grown man smile.
Tom, I have to say your comments are the most entertaining. And buried in all of your favoritism to the 45 Colt is some usable wisdom and encouragement😄
@@TargetSuite I’d shoot the 45 Colt all day long over the 44 mag.
Maybe someday we'll shoot together. Who knows?
@@TargetSuite Would love to!
@@TargetSuite What got me to appreciate the .45 Colt was the fact that it can get pretty much the same "work" done as the .44 Mag but at lower pressures. Less stress on gun and shooter, excepting Buffalo Bore's offerings.
I Worked in a gun store for several years and I sold a hundred Rossi carbines.
People would ask about them and I would explain the the gun was designed by a genius, built of modern steel on c&c machinery
to exacting tolerances. In a country where people can work for less.
That's why they can sell them at a reasonable price.
The other reason that keeps the price low is that you don't get much hand fitting of parts or hand polishing of the action. You can let it wear in over time or pay a gunsmith to do an action job on it or learn to do it yourself.
Thanks the difference between a thousand dollar Browning and a $500 Rossi.
I sold a ton of them and none ever came back.
John Davis Jax Fl
Thanks John. I appreciate the input of one with your background.
The last Rossi .357 lever gun I saw, about 4 months ago, was priced at $820.00. It sold, but not to me.
@@Salieri47 it's not that the guns worth more, it's that our dollar is worth less.
Your videos are great. I have done quite a bit of testing and the older marlins and some winchesters seem much more accurate than the new rounds, Some of the new marlins have huge bores like 2 thousandths too large.
The only way to know if there is any value in longer barrels is to actually test them. Most people don't have chronographs. Thank you for doing so, saves the rest of us $$ Took a while for me to go from 20" to 16" in my ARs. Weight too is a consideration, but if the loss in velocity is good enough for the Army I suppose I am good with it too. Thanks again!!
Thanks for your comment. I used the term "disappointing" loosely. Because as you say, the velocity loss doesn't really matter for my application. Also, thanks for watching!
Velocity loss was not good enough for the Army hence the creation and adoption of M855A1 and why the Marines had created and adopted the Mk318 till they switched over to the 855A1. Going to a short (sub 16") barrel had more to do with CQB and vehicle dismounts than anything else.
Its a tool..no shame in allowing it be just that! cuts, nicks and scrapes give it character. Guns are made to be used, not idle decorations. Don't fear the man with a pretty gun, fear the man with a beat up gun which proves he knows how to use it. Great review!
That steel Cresent butt plate will definitely make an impression
Great video ! But I’ll stick with my Rossi round barrel 20 inch. Great little gun.
Thank you Michael! Your 20-in Barrel is definitely more practical. I have one as well.
@@TargetSuite Thanks: mike
I have a Miroku Winchester 92 with a 20" barrel (twin actually) and a Marlin 1894 Cowboy with a 24" barrel in 44 mag. The 24" Marlin was consistently gaining 50 FPS or so over the Miroku. Different rate of twist, I believe, but still. H110 22 gr I believe.
Haven't red the other comments but here's a thought. The only time a longer barrel is going to produce higher velocity is when all the powder is consumed in both barrels. If a larger charge is fired through a short barrel the excess powder does nothing to propell the bullet it simply makes a large flash at the muzzel.
Thanks for your comment. And the problem with pistol caliber rounds in a rifle is there's just not enough volume in the case to fill it full of slower burning powder which will generate pressure over a longer period of time resulting in higher velocity. So there is a point of diminishing returns. I'm hoping I can experiment a little bit and find out what some of those premium rounds are doing to get higher velocity out of a longer barrel. Thanks for your comment and thanks for watching!
Good morning.... Nice shooting.... I looked at the rifle ... Before I bought my Henry Big Boy 44.... The safety on the Rossie and the wood stocks seemed cheaper than I liked... Then I seen they are no longer AMERICAN Made. So that helped my decision on Buying my Henry.... Thanks for the video.
Thanks for your comment! As far as I know , Rossi rifles have always been made in Brazil. And they have been through quite a few changes in quality. I'm glad they are on the uptick right now. Thanks for watching.
@@TargetSuite Yes, Rossi was originally from Brazil, then got taken over by Taurus (also in Brazil) and is now owned and manufactured by CBC (also in Brazil).
When comparing Henry, Marlin, Winchester, Uberti and Rossi, we should never forget that the Rossi are substantially lower cost than the other ones. I don't know about the US, but here in Germany, Rossi is literally half the price of the others. For what they are, they are really good rifles that shoot well. They are not as luxurious as the others.
I like the rossi 92 in 45 long colt, however for 44 mag I went with the Henry Big Boy and its a thumper especially with the hardcast and +P type rounds.
Straight wall cartridges are by far less barrel-lenght related than bottle-necks. In most cases you will not see much velocity increase After 16-18 inch. "Ballistics by the inch"
Ballistics as measured by the LabRadar showed two loads that were 170-ish fps faster out of the longer barrel. And my more recent vid with this 24" Rossi revealed a bore that was .003" larger than the SAAMI spec. So, the big question in my mind is why some loads really seemed to benefit from the longer barrel, and some didnt🤔
Possibly it's as simple as the
Trying this again
Maybe it's as simple as the bearing surfaces on the bullets fitting the bore better
As others mentioned with some loads the optimal velocity may be reached in a shorter barrel, 'But'. Even when of the same length length not all barrels are equal. You should have seen some significant velocity increase with an extra 4 inches of barrel. Variations in chamber, rifling, and other dimensions could all be important. My guess is if you cut 4 inches off of the 24 inch barrel it will shoot slower than the other barrel.
For a 44 mag the only reason for a 24 inch barrel is for a longer magazine tube or longer sighting radius. Now for a 25-35 with reloads and slow powder I can see the wisdom of a longer barrel, but then it has been a long time since anyone to my knowledge has made a 25-35 rifle.
Buffalo Bore had published similar results for some of their ammo, can’t remember if it was .44, .45 or what, but around 18 inches was ideal if my memory serves me correctly. I think more powder or slower burning powder would produce the results you are looking for. Just so much powder to burn in those short cases.
Question, will the Rossi action accommodate those longer 300+ grain .44 mag loads from BB?
Tim you hit the nail on the head burn rates,,
About a 50-50 split on the increase in velocity between the two rifles and the different loads. I have found the difference in my 45 Colt +P loads in my Two Rossis are about a 45 fps difference favoring the 24” barrel over the 20”. Great video as always.
Thanks for your feedback Mark. I didn't really know what to expect. Maybe I was too optimistic. Nonetheless I don't view it as a flaw was a just a surprise. Thanks for your comment and thank you for watching!
All the magnum pistol cartridges are pretty much maxxed out at about 16in, there's really not much difference in velocity between the 16, 20, & 24in barrel BUT the longer the barrel the longer the tube so the longer barrels hold more ammo 16in=8rds, 20in=10rds, 24in=12rds. The difference probably has more to do with powder than anything else, just guessing but slower burning powder probably had a higher velocity with the longer barrels
It's very likely something like the powder choice. And I'll do some more experimenting to try and find out what works best. But the powders I use are all optimized for rifling Barrels in 44 Magnum.
@@TargetSuite In the past I tested 20" Marlin SS vs 24" 44 , the 24" got more vel with full power rounds , with Unique , they both got very little over an 8" or 4 5/8" .
@Dan O'Neill Thanks!
Sorry George, I like your videos.....but I will not be checking out your shorts....😅 Your eyes obviously are in better shape than mine.....I couldn't hardly even use the sights on my 16" Rossi .357. I installed a Marbles tang and now I'm good to go out to 100-150 yards. It amazed me how much an aperture sight cleared up my sight picture! Great video, thank you!
Haha! I didn't realize until after the video posted what I had said. I edited out part of that using the CZcams Tool. But I couldn't get out both references. Hopefully the comments will remain, like yours, reasonable😄
That Rossi is a beautiful rifle, and I'm shopping for one now. I couldn't care less about those little scuffs on the gun. After my rifles ride in my truck or in my saddle scabbard for a little while, they all get to looking a little "broken in" ;)
I kinda like a few nicks and dings. Gives it some character
Steve also makes a peep sight that fits into the safety hole on the bolt. I just don't know how well it works.
Thanks! I've seen that but would prefer the style of the marble arms Tang site.
Very good video again George! Love the guns! Others have commented on likely reasons/scenarios of speed comparisons to cover most likely situations that have occurred. No matter what though you probably had a good time and that’s where it’s at my friend!😊
Good times . . . ayyyymen!
I think a real sweet spot in the Rossi lineup is the 16” barrel R92 in 44mag with the skinner peep and picatinny rail forward of the action. The one with the large loop with paracord wrap. I could see putting a red dot on that and being a happy hunter out to about 100 yards, but most opportunities for where I hunt are around 50 yards.
I’ve been eyeballing the 454 Casull one though…not that I need it, but I sure do want it!
As far as the velocity, it could be the quicker burning powder kept the bullets at the same velocity, and a slower burn rate could have increased the velocity in the longer barrel. Just a thought!
Nice rifle! I think you've found the point where barrel length doesn't gain you much velocity. I have a .44 mag Rossi with the 16" barrel and when I use Hodgdon's data for a 20" barrel I get nearly the same velocities, so 16 to 20 already doesn't make much of a difference. Between that 16" and my 12" ranch hand there's still not a heck of a lot of difference, and that's with H110.
I've gotten slightly higher velocities in the 12" barrel with Lil'gun (using less powder too), but I'm not sure about longer barrels.
I think your main advantages with the 24" is a longer sight radius and more magazine capacity. In case you didn't burn through enough ammo as it is, haha!
Haha! Thanks for your comment!
Definitely go with the Tang sight and see how far you can stretch the legs on that 44 mag. I think that would be fun. I think the tang looks. Correct on that rifle and should perform well with that long sight radius. Thank you 👍
I’ve got the tang mounted peep sight on my Rossi. both me and my old eyes really like it.
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Beautiful rifle, my wife bought me a 45/70 brass framed Henry octogan barrel.
It takes approximately 16 and one half inches to burn all the gasses in a cartridge at least in handgun ammo. You gain very little if any velocity by using a 24 inch barrel . In fact factoring in diminishing returns it starts to slow the bullet down. You do gain some velocity with a 20 in barrel over the 16 and half but probably about 5 0 to 80 fps . The advantage for an average shooter using a longer barrel is the longer sight radius making it a little easier to hit with. Practice with a shorter barrel will fix that of course. I've been shooting short barreled rifles for so long I actually may have practice a bit with the longer barrel to hit as well.
Interesting analysis
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Yes, by all means, go with the Marble tang sight. On that long octagon barrel it would look great and add to your sight radius. Also I was not surprised at some of the results on velocity. As you know, George, you hit a point of diminishing returns on barrel length, especially with pistol cartridges. Sometimes that return even drifts into negative territory as you saw with certain loads. I suspect such things as powder burn rate, load density, barrel friction, and crafty evil spirit creatures all come into play. The one thing I've learned is that you never know what to expect until you perform the actual tests. I've run into similar results with the 30-30 when I tested an NRA edition Winchester 24" against My Marlin 336 20 ".
Great comment Glen! It is the crafty evil spirit creatures that make shooting, and especially reloading, challenging and fun😄
Hi from France, Rossi 44 mag works well with 240 grs FMJ or FMJ-SP with 44 mag load !
Wow! It's great to hear from you. I didn't know I had viewers from France. Thanks for your comment!
Plated bullets have a velocity ceiling. The powder burn rate is definitely a factor also
Thanks! I was a couple hundred feet per second below the velocity ceiling for the berries bullets. But you are right about the burn rate. That is a major factor.
Maybe in the lower power rounds the powder gets mostly burned up in the first 20 inches, so you get velocities that are very close, even faster in a shorter barrel. But more powerful rounds there is more powder to burn, so you can get higher velocities out of the longer barrel. I've heard of this in 22 rifles where the powder is all burned up before it leaves the barrel. Never thought about it on bigger rounds like 44 though, but I suppose it is possible.
Good thoughts. It could very well be something like you have pointed out.
Most .44 mag factory loads are probably optimized for 6 inch barrels (revolvers) because if you had a load that needs 16 inches to completely burn up, all you'd get from your revolver would be a 10" fireball and no velocity...
The powder has to be why velocities came out as they did . That and the unknowns about what happens after the primer pops.
You're right and that is probably the issue. But I will be checking chamber and bore diameters as well. Thanks as always for your comments!
Nice video as usual. The Rossi 92's I have seen lately seem to be well finished and put together, but I have noticed that they all have the lever standing off of the lower tang by quite a distance. Compare it to your Miroku. My LSI era 92 in 357 doesn't do this, and basically is the same as my original Winchester 1892s. It would be nice if they fixed it.
My son does not like the Rossi's because of that characteristic. I'm sure it's intentional but I don't know why they would do it other than to eliminate finger pinch from a tight grip. Or maybe it allows for some looseness with tolerances. Either way it doesn't look as good as the way Winchester does it. Thanks for your comment!
Even the product photos on their website show this gap between the lever and the tang. I personally don't mind, I don't think it looks bad.
@@TargetSuite I suspect your speculation about tolerances has a lot to do with it. I've never been pinched by any of my lever actions but I guess some have experienced it. Maybe if someone is clever the lever could be bent but it obviously doesn't bother a lot of people.
I think I saw a scratch on the lower right side of the butt stock as well when you showed a close up of the gun. Also I dont care for the grain of the wood stock. Just my personal preference but I like the long grain of walnut stocks.
To get higher velocity out of that barrel length you will need to hand load using data for a rifle. Be sure to keep rifle loads separate from standard loads. They are really over pressure even for the heaviest 44 handguns.
I finally got a Rossi R92 20" blued/wood 357 mag last week. And put 10 rounds in to check the operation and that was fine but I noticed that the blueing was coming off the loading gate after loading just 10 rds. So I looked at yours closely and noticed yours has the same problem. I have a Marlin 94 and a Uberti 1873 and there's no issues with the finish on the loading gates after years of shooting. I called Rossi and they said they haven't heard any other complaints and I could send the rifle into them to fix it. I asked "can't you just send me a new loading gate?" they wouldn't do that. I'm not going to send it back and have them put another one on that would have the same defect. So tried some cold blueing by Birchwood Casey and that came off too. So I'm disappointed in that aspect of the finishing quality, but otherwise a nice rifle for the money, good fit and finish and action feels pretty smooth too. Anybody else had issues with the loading gates blueing coming off?
Unfortunately, and you have discovered, as I have, there are compromises that we have to live with in the Rossi lever guns. But to get an affordable 1892 lever gun at this price I am okay with the lower "quality" bluing.
Here is a load that works great for plinking in my Uberti/Winchester 1873 .44 Mag 200 gr. plated Xtreme loaded with 9 gr. Unique. About like a top end .44-40
That 125 grain copper at 2500 ft per second is really impressive! Being that that's a copper fluid transfer do you think it would work well with deer? Do you know anybody that's actually used it for hunting? You would have a really flat trajectory and a lot more range. I wonder what velocity you have to maintain to achieve the fluid transfer because I know those bullets do not mushroom? Interesting as always thank you 👍
Hi George, very nice rifle, and great video! I have two thoughts about your unusual velocity numbers:
1. As said by many others, powder burn rate will become important here. The slower burning the powder, likely the bigger the difference.
2. SAAMI bore specs. The groove diameter for the bore and groove of a .44 Rem Mag handgun are .417" and .429" respectively. For a rifle those numbers are .424" and .431". Add to that a tolerance of +.004" and a small (.429") bullet will have a maximum of .006" clearance to the bore. This would allow for a lot of gas blow-by. I believe the monolithic bullets have a series of grooves running around their diameter. This may be acting as a rudimentary labyrinth seal with the back pressure developed in each groove acting as a partial seal and slowing gas escape.
I would be interested to hear if the Rossi has a looser bore than your Winchester. I know Chiappas have a reputation for being in the .433 range and a lot of shooters recommend oversize cast bullets for them.
Thanks for your comment. I will be checking out both of the Groove diameter as well as the chamber diameter.
I would not think there would be much difference in FPS when dealing with 16/20/24" barrels. A 44 Mag is basically a large very stout handgun round, its not really the case pressure or length of a long rifle cartridge. I am really amazed at the one Buffalo Bore that had 173fps increase. We all know their ammo is loaded xtra hot and probably uses a ton of powder. I imagine half of it goes unburnt in many instances. The 24" barrel got more out of that one. Beautiful lever guns.
I think your velocity increase is going to be slow with longer barrel length due to the expansion ratio..not a very big chamber size for a .429 bore. So a small amount of expanding gas to push on the base of the bullet.
Exactly right and this is why slower "rifle" powders are not helpful in a pistol caliber carbine. They are made for bottleneck cartridges which have more powder space and much smaller expansion ratios per inch of barrel.
My guess is the difference in powder/primer combo. Definitely interesting!
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Barrel length is only helpful up to a point. Perhaps a longer burning or slower burning powder would help? I can see that if the powder burns off way before the bullet leaves barrel, that the friction of the last little bit would slow it down. I don't know if im correct or not but just seems like a good explanation.
You are correct about barrel length working against you. I actually demonstrated this with two target 22 rifles. Beyond about 16 in a standard 22 long rifle will begin to slow down due to friction in the bore. I suspect that was what was at Play in one of the loads I showed in this video. Thanks for the comment and thank you for watching!
A tang site would probably help with long distance shooting. Aperture sites are nice for distance but the buckhorn site is great for quick, close shots. What kind of range do you think you can accurately get with a .44 mag.? My lever is a .25-35 and I also used to have a .30-30 both Winchesters. I did fire a .44-40 replica 40 yrs ago. Don’t remember the make. He’d gotten it through Dixie Gun Works I believe. That rifle seemed a bit anemic for anything past 100 yds but it wasn’t the most accurate rifle I ever fired. You still did a good job of destroying that homney can and that’s the best use for homney in my opinion.
The action is so much smoother on the Winchester and its just a finer built rifle than the Rossi. But that is reflected in the price difference.
Re tang sight: Other than improving the appearance of the rifle, I don't think the 44 Magnum is suited much beyond 150 yards - so why bother with a tang sight?
It's just something I've always wanted to do and it will be purely an adventure in shooting without any real practical application. Where'd you say it another way long range shooting with a 44 mag will just be for fun😉
@@TargetSuite Sounds like a great reason to invest in a tang sight, I look forward to a future video with your results.
@@ZREXER1250 I also used a 44 Magnum in a T/C Contender with a 14" barrel for metallic silhouette shooting, it is quite effective on the rams at 200 meters as long as bullet placement is high on the ram. I eventually switched to a 7 mm IHMHSA because of bullets with much better BCs and greater retained energy at the greater distances. The 44 Magnum is great for targets and steel beyond 150 yards, less so for game animals - IMHO.
@Mark Carew I agree with the limited range of the 44 Magnum. 75 yards is about it for me when it comes to hunting. And with that said I've never taken any deer with a 44 magnum Beyond about 40 ft.
Tang sights are an improvement for old eyes like mine.
I have and love the R92 in 357 in 16" barrel, and it shoots great right out of the box. I also have the 44 in both 20" and 24", both shot high and had to replace the front sight. Other than that, I love these rifles.
Thanks david. They do make a decent and affordable rifle.
I actually just bought this same rifle in stainless, was going to replace the semi-buckhorn sight with a Marble's Bullseye sight. I noticed you've used them as well, wanted to ask how easy they are to install, and did you keep the original front sights or did you swap those out as well? Thanks, great videos!
I put Bullseye sight on 2 of my Rossi's and my Marlin 30/30, in my case made them all easier to aim and fit target. Thanks to Target Suite . Only takes a few minutes to swap them over and i left the front sight on for the moment. Trying to get a couple more Bullseye sights but n/a at the moment in Aussie.
@@peterlawrie7636 I just ordered the bullseye long version (2.5inch) and a William's fire bead front sight, suggested to me by another CZcamsr who had the same gun I just got. I'm not old (yet), but I've got eyesight issues. Can't wait to try them out! From videos, they seem to acquire targets very quick.
@@roland1912 Put one on my s/s octagonal 357 rossi with the extra weight out front bullseye sights make it a pleasure to shoot 🔫 .
Nice shooting Mr 🤠!
I am no professional but what's happening is, it's a pistol caliber made for a short barrel. So in the rile length barrel your getting a complete powder burn so the gains are minimal after 16 to 20 inches. Your reaching the maximum velocity in less than 24 inches
i have had my rossi for over 12 years. never had a problem with it. i also had it made easier to use the lever at a gun smith. many many years ago. it is my go do rifle. much better than the ar15.
Fantastic firearm I have taken several deer all be it inside of 50yds,using 230grn LSWC and it just rocks them,I have even loaded Pyrodex just for fun,once again fantastic lil firearm.i did redo the wood though 😀 👍