PRS Pro Shooters - I Need Your Advice!
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- čas přidán 23. 06. 2024
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Learning to shoot PRS competitively includes learning how to deal with various situations inherent to the game. I am asking for advice here, but am only looking for constructive input about how I can do better.
Favorite Short-Range Load development targets:
Shotmarker circle-cross target: cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/052...
OCW Target (circles with orange diamond): accurateshooter.net/pix/ocwta... - Sport
Been there as a shooter, RO and spotter. As a shooter, keep working the stage, but do ask out loud if it was a hit. Sometimes, you're the one shooting the wrong plate, sometimes the spotter makes a mistake. Asking is free, and there are often other shooters in your squad that can verify a hit if the spotter made a mistake. Remember though, the spotter's call is usually final. Be respectful to the spotters.
As an RO, my main focus is on maintaining stage safety and rules. I will often be able to see the plates, but not always. I'm also not on a scope, so I may miss things. What I usually do catch though is if the shooter is messing up their sequence. When that happens, I will often indicate to my spotter to not call out an impact even if the shooter hits the plate. It is then the shooter's responsibility to get back into the sequence. As an RO do miss impacts though, because I'm either not looking or I can't see the impacts. Remember, the RO is not the one calling out the impacts.
As a spotter, I do my best to call out impacts, but occasionally I may mess up. The most common reason for any delay in calling an impact is if I'm not sure, for example an edge-hit with minimal plate movement, or small bullets on large plates (without a flasher). There have been the odd case where I have messed up my sequence. When that happens and another competitor calls out an impact, I'll accept it.
Generally, it's a good idea to have at least one or two people in the squad on glass at all times. People make mistakes, and getting verification does help, even if it's verifying that you shot the wrong target. As this sport grows, we'll also have to deal with more inexperienced volunteers. These volunteers will make mistakes, and we should do our best to help them out. In our local matches, the MDs often asks squads to ensure to have additional spotters on glass to help out the volunteers.
It's not even local matches either. At Worlds last year in Italy, it was very evident that many spotters were inexperienced. In my squad and I think in most others, we made sure to always have as many people on glass as we could, because there were a number of impacts that weren't called by the spotters that we saw clearly. During the second day, there was an unofficial rule that if a competitor from a different country than the shooter called the impact, it would count.
In the end though, the spotter's word is final. They are often volunteering their time helping to run a match they could've been competing in, or just for the benefit of the sport. We need to respect the time and effort they put in, even if they might make a mistake or two.
I would have said “Was that a hit?” while transitioning over to the next target. This stuff happens 🤷🏽♂️ so it goes….
Hey Keith, I run a triggercam through my courses of fire. This can help these situations. Comes up often, especially in NRL22/ PRS 22
Also, you can mount the triggercam to a spotting scope. The footage can then be brought up to the MD during litigation period before finalizing scores in Practice Score and viewed with their tablet devices as triggercam has WiFi.
I dont argue with the RO. This helps keep you focused on making your impacts and keep your mind in the game
In this case, I will usually ask politely "no call?" loud enough for the RO to hear while transitioning to the next target. It announces I took that shot and should be on shot 3, and gives the ROs (and shooters watching) a mental timestamp that we can discuss afterwards.
I will always call out my own impact if nothing is heard from the RO, I do this while continuing to shoot the stage though. I don't look back at anyone, just call it loud enough for everyone to hear. More often than not, the squad will back me up on the positive impact call. I've only had one instance before where neither the RO or anyone in the squad saw the impact and in that instance, I politely pled my case to the RO. He gave me the point after discussing the situation with the Match Director.
No harm, now foul to the RO's. They spend 8 hours straight looking at the exact same 2-3 targets for 100-200 shooters. Complacency is inevitable and impacts will be missed. It's a sport, thank your RO's for their sacrifice and then hop on glass to help the other shooters in your squad.
I think Paul at frontline said it best at the match I just shot at. If you have an issue with a call shoot your stage then approach the RO immediately after your stage. If necessary get the match director over and if multiple eyes confirm your impact you get the point. Ever risk your time cause once you start you own the stage. Don’t start if you can see the target or feel any unnecessary distractions. That’s why after my 4th stage I packed up and went home. No sleep no feeling 100%. I’m not putting anybody at risk if I can’t compete at my fullest level.
Call impact and keep moving. If it’s a long bomb or a hit to move on stage more important to get the confirmation from the RO. They never give a re-shoot for a missed call
I think the appropriate protocol is for you to say, “Impact?” Loudly enough for the RO to hear while you are panning to your next target. That way if he was truly off target any other competitor can call the impact for you. However, if it was actually you that made an impact on the wrong target then you are letting the RO know that you think you hit the right target and he can either tell you or let you figure it out on your own. Either way you made a little memory flag for the two of you so you know where the discussion starts when you are done finishing the stage. Every RO makes mistakes and every competitor shoots the wrong target fully believing they are shooting the right one at least one time while shooting competition. How often does a shot hit the wrong target in F-Class?
As a shooter who has RO'D more than they have shot in matches, i always ask for other shooters to help with impact calls as im usually running the tablet, timer, and glassing. RO's are only human, and multitasking is a pain because very rarely do people volunteer to RO instead of shoot. Yes, they can miss calls. Arbitration is best to be done after the course of fire. If needed, bring the MD over. However, problem ive had with other shooters or even the person shooting, is they call an impact, and they shot the wrong target, which is why I, as the RO, didn't call impact. I've also had people miss and say it "glanced"; I've been doing this long enough to know an edge hit. Last match I RO'd for, I think over the course of 2 days, I had nearly 25 edge calls requested, mostly by shooters who wouldn't make the top 10 anyways. Ideally, the best way to fix this is to have a fully electronic system set up for helping with impact calls. But that's too costly to run.
Yes I think you could have said "impact right?!" and continue shooting and then show your camera footage. That split second that they made you loose could be the difference between winning of lossing a match. Also showing the camera footage and talking to the RO will make him a better RO and a reminder to stay focus. Anyone can make a mistake and we must learn from them.
There are several spot on comments already posted. I remember as a new to PRS shooter my first experience ROing at Nasvasota a few years ago. My spotting binoculars were very average and one target was in heavy shade. I RO’ed the match by squad committee and wouldn’t begin the stage until two squad members were on glass. There were times when I couldn’t tell a hit, but others could so I used their call. Everyone was honest and it went well.
I shoot a lot of matches, at least one a week all year long (silhouette and yes, that is over 52 matches a year). Stuff happens, if it's a "club" match I treat them as organized practice. I am there for nothing more then to see friends and practice. If it's a state, regional or national match, everyone is generally much more serious (RO's and competitors). I don't shoot PRS (yet) but have seen several comments about calling your own hits and agree. Thank you for the content.
Do both. I yell 'that was a hit' and move on without delay. If they give it to me I yell thanks, if they don't, I ask after the stage is over and defer to the spotter/ RO's decision. Life is too short to get upset.
This.
I agree with lukewarm_fuzz’s comment. That was a tough match, first since I had had some medical issues, and I personally was getting some grief about too much of my ass on the wooden box edge as I was shooting. I’m the guy you were taking to with the green Rivian truck. I have no butt anymore, so I don’t know what they were talking about. 😅 In my squad, we made sure at least 1-2 folks were also watching and would backup the shooter or the RO’s claim. It went both ways. Sometimes the shooter was wrong and we backed up the RO and sometimes it was the other way around. But the “do both” plus the backup got us fair calls and mitigated scoring errors. And the RO on that stage, the big football payer looking guy, seemed like a really great guy. Everyone was doing their best. Cheers and it was nice to meet you!
My suggestion would be to walk and chew bubble gum. Aim, shoot, spot hit/splash, MOVE, and then you can say "Hey that was an impact!" while setting up the next shot (don't wait for the ding). Basically, the seconds you spent looking back at the RO were not well spent. Once it's all over, then you can talk with the RO and the crowd and finalize your score. And I consider talking with the crowd to be acceptable in this game. There's usually enough witnesses to come to a consensus.
As you mentioned, perhaps the RO had a moment of distraction. Sometimes the gun on the next stage over can be louder than the one in front. I'll be honest, looking at the video I could barely physically tell that you had shot, and if I thought you had not shot, and visually missed key moments of the impact, I would likely hesitate to call impact. And as the shooter, you need to MOVE. RO hesitation isn't something to allot time for :)
Much like baseball umpires, human error does occur while calling impacts. I deal with this somewhat often because I shoot a 223 in Tactical division and my hits are hard to see on big plates far away.
If I am CERTAIN I got a hit and am CERTAIN I shot the correct target, I might say "I think that was a hit" before moving on. More often I will just accept that the point is lost and move on. Sooo many times I've seen people argue just to be told they got a hit but shot the targets out of order or something like that. You almost never get the point if you bring it up after the stage, it just frustrates you and everyone else to argue about it.
Sometimes a ball is called a strike. It's part of the game.
We are our own best advocate, when we have made a hit, confirm it loudly if needed. Hits are sometimes difficult and lack of acknowledgement can be a game changer.
I’ve just yelled in the past “ hey that was an impact” and continued on with the stage COF.
Always move forward with your own decision & renegotiate after,....like the advice when saving your own life or a loved ones life - since shooting competitions/matches are indeed training-practice - only you can make your own decision NOW !!..there's a definite time for questions AFTER the fact, the clock & time waits for no one.
I would have just load and clearly mentioned that it was an impact 💪🎯💨
Been in the same situation. Didn't make a fuss at the time but tried to make sure that there were always two sets of eyes on the target from that time forward. If you're not shooting for the podium it's probably best just to take your lumps and move on. If you're shooting for the podium then it may be a good idea to very respectfully request that the MD make the final call - but if there's only one set of eyes on the target you're going to have a weak case.
My old hunting partner said - You keep shooting till you run out of bullets or the barrel falls off.
Hey Kieth,
I was squaded with you on this one, and if I remember correctly this was the stage after an incident with an RO and one of our squad mates and I think we were all suffering from a little PTSD. Being this was a 2 day national and a tough match to begin with, we fought hard and earned every point so I can't blame you for your reaction after you clearly hit the target but it was not called by the RO.
As someone who has RO'd alot of national level matches, my advice is talk to the RO after the stage, respectfully, with your grievance. I, personally, have always gave the shooter the point after the fact knowing what is on the line and what he/she went through to get there. See ya soon buddy, Daniel
Best score defense is a target cam. If there is a bad call, video proof can help fix score, i have used it before. Barring that i would have argued it after the stage, it did ring on film you did have.
At many matches they have switched to shooter(people in the squad) call impacts and the RO is there to score and that is it.
I don't feel this is the best answer but with it getting harder and harder to get experienced RO's it may be the wave of the future.
As a local match guy I am amazed that ROs call impacts at big matches. The only matches I've been to, the RO worked the tablet and shooters spot. Including a 2 day match.
We definitely have issues with "missed" impacts. My brother lost a match due to missing hits on a day I wasn't there. And on this day, it was likely intentional (I've seen these dudes hose the comp at other matches)
Show up with a buddy who watches. Typically, just letting them know politely they missed hits gets the score corrected. At the very least, you know the real score at the end of the day and know who to watch out for.
It’s one of those things that is going to happen. I had an issue on a stage several years back. I said, “impact?” To the RO ready to fire again. He didn’t make the call, I looked him in the eye and said, “that was a hit”. It cost me time. I ended up 12th, and it cost me a top ten finish at a big match.
In retrospect, I should have just shot it again and asked for a reshoot following the stage.
Stay on scope ask for hit confirmation (confirm hit! Or confirm hit target x!), if it doesn’t come right away shoot again.
That tells the scorer something is wrong and many will try to help resolve as quick as they can such as no hit target x and you may be shooting target y.
next time stay on the scope...you wasted 2 seconds turning around and looking at RO...stay in the scope, say.."was that NOT and impact?" if they say nothing then you may have shot the wrong target....they may say impact...but stay in your scope...you would not have timed out if you had not turned around...I did something stupid this weekend...I had a memory stage...flip over the cards...write the suits down and then shoot targets based on the suit order...I wrote is down wrong then cleaned the stage in my wrong order...I hit the target and spotters said nothing...I stated that was an impact...they replied ... wrong target...but I stayed in my scope....cost me the match by the way....12 point possible....I hit every target....IN THE WRONG ORDER!!!
I wasted much more time than that. That's why I'm asking for the advice. The time wasted by me cost me a point.
Best I have found to not cause issues is to immediately ask: did I impact the wrong target? This will make it more like a statement saying I hit the target was it the wrong target.
I totally see your conundrum, Keith. I guess it comes down to whether you take the gentlemens approach and take it up after, or a competitors approach and address it immediately. Since it was recorded, I would address it after. It's, also, more low key and nonconfrontational to the guy that made the error.
Being a competitor and RO. I would ask if the target hit was the correct target. While I keep running the stage. Other shooters on glass also helps RO’s. I always welcome as much back up as I can.
I think before any answer can be given we'd need to hear the RO's version of why there was delay in calling the hit. Was it spotting error, was he not paying attention, did other noise like talking around him mask the sound? It'd be good to hear his side before reacting. I don't think there is a set in concrete way to react or respond because each situation will be different so saying there is a mold of one response might not be appropriate for every event. Above all we need to keep in mind we are all human and make mistakes.
Always finish your stage then discuss with RO and all the spotters that were on glass, have a civil discussion about what everyone saw. Call the MD over to discuss if there is any other confusion. It is the ROs duty to confirm spotters up. As an RO I'd always state I need atleast 2 spotters up on glass. As a shooter there is no issue confirming people on glass. As an RO if there was ever a questionable hit I always wanted confirmation from 2 spotters. If one spotter called a hit but the other saw nothing I would give the shooter the impact.
While I am nowhere near a top-level shooter, I have been in this situation before and have witnessed it as an RO. As an RO, you rely heavily on your spotters to make good calls and this comes down to their own experience and equipment. Poor quality glass or too low magnification can make spotting difficult. Also for a stage like this, the spotter(s) also HAVE to know the correct target numbers to be spotting on the correct target. Any mistake here can result in a missed impact call. My shooter (a very seasoned one) simply called "Impact" while transitioning to the next target, which I then looked over at the spotters to confirm.
When it happened to me, I saw the plate move and I asked "Was that an impact?", to which I received a "No" response. In my case, it was a single target from 9 positions so there was no "Wrong target" mistake on my end. Now, I'm not fighting for top 5 at this time so 1 point wasn't going to matter, but for the top guys, that could make all the difference. At the end of the day, we're dealing with the human factor as a shooter and as a spotter. People make mistakes and it's up to the RO to make their best judgement.
It is frustrating and we have all been there. I have been on both sides of the fence, as an RO and as a shooter when calls were missed. Im not sure there is a definitive right answer. I have seen guys argue an impact that wasn't, and ones that were. I think hit indicators would solve a lot of the problems,, but unfortunately it's just not cost effective.
Stay on the gun and keep shooting the course of fire, IF you are sure that you are shooting the targets in the correct order. If you've gotten out of order and that was the reason for the no-call then verbally clarifying with the RO is appropriate. In this situation I would have said "I think that was an impact" as I transitioned to the next target. Looking back at the RO isn't going to help and just burns time. Side note, I very rarely will rely on the "ding" of targets to confirm impact, there are just too many pieces of steel out there. Best practice is to be 100% sure you see in the scope and are sure of what you saw rather than waiting to hear a ding. Your video lines up though with time/distance of the ding.
It's a sport
Well you have the video to show the hit. I'd have continued to the next target then showed the range officer then video to back your claim.
I've only experienced this as a shooter, but I have always asked "Was that a hit?" if I'm pretty sure I made a hit. Anything short of a confirmation ends with me re-engaging the target if it's unlimited rounds. Otherwise, I just move on.
in your situation you were in: you were in right to get reshoot, is it worth it to actually take reshoot for one hit? from my experience all reshoots are worse than first tries xD
what we do on hit to move stages in this situations is "THAT WAS HIT" and I proceed to next one in sequence.
we always have good spotters from our squad also spotting, so in case situation like this, somoene "neutral" can vouch for you.
on shoot to move stages. we just keep shooting sequence (not worth to turn around and fight) and at the end: "hey shot number X, y and Z were also impacts"
its very important to have someone from your squad to always spot.
I'd just go by the rules for PRS... if the RO didn't call the impact, but I knew it was an impact (especially since you have bystander and video confirmation), I would have just stopped, waited for time to expire, got my score, (politely) disagreed with a score grievance (explaining why you stopped), and asked for a reshoot. If the RO disagrees, then take it to the match director for final ruling. In your case, with bystander and video evidence, I'd be shocked if the RO would deny a reshoot.
I would have called my own hit on that one and kept going…argue with the RO after
Probably should have gave a big yell HEY PAY ATTENTION! Sounds like guys in the background were screwing around and being a distraction
if its an impact and they dont call it i politely ask them was that an impact as i keep going to either the next target or reengage the same target. generally somebody in the squad will pack you up if its an impact or even a miss. mistakes happens hits are missed
I also think that if technology can be brought into these events in some form as it is done in some other events and you can dispute a difference in scoring and review the footage it could help but with how competitions go eventually everyone wants their footage of every round reviewed and it becomes a nightmare. it still however seems like an organizational error in the way these events are prescribed to be conducted and perhaps needs to be looked at to try eliminate the chances of this happening in the first place - perhaps a second RO could assist with the off chance the main RO missed something as we are all human at the end of the day.
Being on the digital era i think every plate should have a spotting camera recording
Either they correct the score or you re-shoot the stage
You should sound off that it was a hit and continue your forward momentum, that way you have already alerted the RO and have ground to stand on after your course of fire, as an RO I would give you the benefit of the doubt and give you the point as soon as you sounded off to me that it was a hit. As far as a shot being launched then time ending while the bullet is in flight and it hits, I count it as a hit. But the round has to be between the muzzle and the target when I yell time. If it's a tie between time ending and report and it hits, I give the point. That's as fair as I know how to be.
My question is: Did you verify with the RO what that match was and what Targets you would be shooting at And in What Order?
Just ask RO’s before the match starts how to handle a situation like that. I would ask as many different RO’s as possible that might avoid differences of opinion and come to a consensus
The time running out is on you, I am sorry to say, I would called out and kept going, (in this situation).
There is no doubt the late shot was on me. That's why I'm asking for advice.
The lost point was yours fault.
You knew the shot was good, BUT YOU WAITED!
I would have carried on and then discuss it later,
using your video as proof if that is allowed, or
use other watchers to varify the hit.
Then take the dession on the chin.
I agree, the point was on me.
Are we on the same target because I got a hit third from left that easy.
I believe your actions to be correct while shooting. However, since you clearly heard other competitors call it a hit, you should have challenged the decision to eliminate your last hit as soon as you finished. My opinion is that every RO, scorer or Match Director makes a mistake or misses some thing at one time or another, I certainly have. You should have called for a range alibi. It took you much longer to call attention to an obvious error than half a second. I believe had you done this the RO or as least the 3-man jury would have awarded you the extra time needed. I see this as similar to exceptionally slow pit service which would result in extra time.
probably say " hey that's an impact" that's what I have done
Call your next target?
I walk ot off, but I am not a top contender.
I just miss everything so the question never comes up.
Nothing you can do it’s human error. There are good calls and bad calls. You should have just kept moving through the stage and talked to the RO after the stage.
o well shit happens not that serious ....
Don't dictate my speech. The RO is human. So is the shooter. So is the commenter. We all are imperfect. That said, either shoot your match without being an R.O.O. or request a reshoot of that stage. You can always talk to an R.O. afterwards or a match director as you see fit. Sometimes we just take our lumps and move on.
Hey Keith speak to @impactshooting Piet's been a winning prs shooter for years.
He's in the US at the moment believe he's visiting with Gavin at Ultimate reloader
Hahahaha
timing out is on you.
Get angry, throw something, curse the RO and match director out, punch someone, get a lifetime ban. 🤣
Seriously? Just keep shooting, dont let that "miss" get in your head game because thats where you win and lose. Talk to RO after the stage and ask other shooters if they heard/seen the hit. Shooters generally give the benefit of the doubt and are paying attention as it only helps them. In your case? Looks like you had video proof if it needed to go to the director.
Lick your wounds and move on, it happens to everyone at some point if you compete 😢