Very nice real world example of seating depth importance. Would be super cool to see this with everything the same except neck tension! .001 vs. .003 for example!
Great job Keith and it's awesome to fully understand how small a difference such as 3 thousands can make I shoot benchrest out to 300 yd And with yours and Eric's help have fully learned Just how much experimentation is needed to truly find the right node with powder and seating depth for the different bullets I shoot !! Great videos and I love your content
Nice shooting Keith. Will be doing a bit of this myself. Scored some Varget at an auction recently. Time to do some load development. Sad, because I had gotten my SD in the last match to around 7 for all three strings. Need to find it again. Thanks for sharing.
Great demonstration of facts. That I myself told a few shooting buddies of mine. They don't seem to get it so I stopped telling them. My big question comes from watching several videos of the top shooters in F-Class. How is it that they manage to get the needed components when they need them? While the rest of us can't.
A lot of conflicting info out there Don’t waste time chasing the lands Followed by a video where the guy says “This is was champions do….tell us what your doing Brian” “Well I’m measuring my lands like I do every time” Find a window from min to max that shoots good and load to the longer end to allow for wear .003” is a make or break
For sure, it seems chaotic. In addition, in the comments he says these were jumped and shot in a well worn barrel. So apparently they were well off the lands. I give up! lol
That is a very interesting video. What are we talking about in terms of jump? I know it was .003 difference between the two, but what are we looking at ~ .050 of jump to the rifling or ~.005?
Great video and channel...couple of questions...was one seating depth shot on a clean barrel? How did these results correlate to the short range results?
No, second and third relay for the day on this barrel. Barrel had over 50 rounds prior to that. It correlates well to the short range results, when I factor in the change in powder charge that I had to make. This is the gray stocked rifle from the fine-tuning video.
@@winninginthewind thanks - is there some suggestion then that within limits the optimum seating depth is not tied to a specific powder charge? PS - I'm not baiting just curious in your opinion.
@@winninginthewind jumped or jammed Keith? I shoot the 184s and in two separate barrels have found a sweet spot with about a 30thou jump - couldn't shoot the difference between 20, 30 and 40 thou so I went with 30 and results have been very pleasing. Good to see you testing at a decent distance also - if you have horizontal and vertical at 600, you don't want to be trying that at 800 or 1000.
Thank you for the video Keith. Can you give a rough idea how far off the lands you were. Just interested if it is say 5 off vs. 50. I'm wondering if it is more sensitive when it is closer to the lands than if the sweet spot is far out.
E.S. = Extreme Spread in Velocity / S.D. = Standard Deviation (which is a method to measure how much a sample set of numbers vary from their average, the larger the sample set such as 20 shots the more accurate and valuable the data)
Were you running a labradar? If so, the Sd on the right (both actually) was quite a bit different than the shotmarker. Or was that data from earlier development?
I don't understand how neck tension affects seating depths. There not a spring in my seating die i use a rcbs master micrometer die but my seating depths can change 0..005 between loads, measured with a comparator. I did just order a mandrel die and mandrel,
I also use an rcbs matchmaster die, I use a 334 bushing that undersizes my neck 4thousandth then I use an expander mandrel sized .306 to give me 2 thousands neck tension.
@@58harwood so I measure several loaded rounds, subtract 004 from average, that gets my bushing size. Then I expand with 306 mandrel or 222 and I get my neck tension. It works for me and I get good results so I stick with it. I'm open for any ideas on change
You seem to have discounted the contribution of the ES and SD differences in the two loads. Surely these are the result of differences in brass prep. and loading? Wouldn't these also account for the spread of shots?
It’s impossible to tell what if any other variables changed… to affect the result. To automatically conclude that this proves correlation between seating depth and group is blind faith… not science. You might be 100% correct, it’s just that this video is not valid proof. However this video is proof that the group on the right is fantastic! Don’t change a thing!
Excellent analysis. Exactly why I mentioned this in the video. I believe the two groups accurately represent the difference in the loads, but this would not qualify as a scientifically convincing test.
Very nice real world example of seating depth importance. Would be super cool to see this with everything the same except neck tension! .001 vs. .003 for example!
This guy can shoot!!
Awesome shooting Keith 👍🏻
Everyday is a school day and for that I thank you .
Great job Keith and it's awesome to fully understand how small a difference such as 3 thousands can make
I shoot benchrest out to 300 yd And with yours and Eric's help have fully learned Just how much experimentation is needed to truly find the right node with powder and seating depth for the different bullets I shoot !! Great videos and I love your content
Nice shooting Keith. Will be doing a bit of this myself. Scored some Varget at an auction recently. Time to do some load development. Sad, because I had gotten my SD in the last match to around 7 for all three strings. Need to find it again. Thanks for sharing.
The problem with plotting seating depth for me is when I see the curve peak. I am like...what is on the other side of that mountain!!!
There are often - 2 good seating depths found within 0.120" of each other, but most choose the one near the lands with less jump.
Great video Keith! Very helpful
Great demonstration of facts. That I myself told a few shooting buddies of mine. They don't seem to get it so I stopped telling them. My big question comes from watching several videos of the top shooters in F-Class. How is it that they manage to get the needed components when they need them? While the rest of us can't.
Standing orders with several suppliers. Most also have stock left over from when it wasn't so difficult.
HUGE! Thanks!
Brilliant!
A lot of conflicting info out there
Don’t waste time chasing the lands
Followed by a video where the guy says “This is was champions do….tell us what your doing Brian”
“Well I’m measuring my lands like I do every time”
Find a window from min to max that shoots good and load to the longer end to allow for wear
.003” is a make or break
For sure, it seems chaotic. In addition, in the comments he says these were jumped and shot in a well worn barrel. So apparently they were well off the lands. I give up! lol
Awesome shooting
wow just wow details detail ....
That is a very interesting video. What are we talking about in terms of jump? I know it was .003 difference between the two, but what are we looking at ~ .050 of jump to the rifling or ~.005?
Cool video!
That's awesome!
I was suspect a highly tuned rifle would be more effected by very small variations than a factory rifle.
Higher Frequency barrel, less amplitude - but higher frequency
Great video and channel...couple of questions...was one seating depth shot on a clean barrel? How did these results correlate to the short range results?
No, second and third relay for the day on this barrel. Barrel had over 50 rounds prior to that. It correlates well to the short range results, when I factor in the change in powder charge that I had to make. This is the gray stocked rifle from the fine-tuning video.
@@winninginthewind thanks - is there some suggestion then that within limits the optimum seating depth is not tied to a specific powder charge? PS - I'm not baiting just curious in your opinion.
Hope they replaced that centre😂😂😂
Good video, but it would be more helpful if we knew what bullets you used.
Berger Hybrids, for example, are not too sensitive to seating depths.
These are 7mm, 180 Hybrids.
@@winninginthewind jumped or jammed Keith? I shoot the 184s and in two separate barrels have found a sweet spot with about a 30thou jump - couldn't shoot the difference between 20, 30 and 40 thou so I went with 30 and results have been very pleasing. Good to see you testing at a decent distance also - if you have horizontal and vertical at 600, you don't want to be trying that at 800 or 1000.
These are jumped in a well worn barrel.
Thank you for the video Keith. Can you give a rough idea how far off the lands you were. Just interested if it is say 5 off vs. 50. I'm wondering if it is more sensitive when it is closer to the lands than if the sweet spot is far out.
What software are you using to track the shots at the bottom of the screen?
That is the electronic target system. It detects and plots the point of impact for shots. That one is a ShotMarker system
How did you create the video and Impact result display?
The impact display is just a recording of the electronic target. The ones used by that club are ShotMarker.
Could you explain E.S and S.D. please.
E.S. = Extreme Spread in Velocity / S.D. = Standard Deviation (which is a method to measure how much a sample set of numbers vary from their average, the larger the sample set such as 20 shots the more accurate and valuable the data)
School maths textbook
E.S. = range
S.d. = standard deviation
Were you running a labradar? If so, the Sd on the right (both actually) was quite a bit different than the shotmarker. Or was that data from earlier development?
That was live, from the match.
I don't understand how neck tension affects seating depths. There not a spring in my seating die i use a rcbs master micrometer die but my seating depths can change 0..005 between loads, measured with a comparator. I did just order a mandrel die and mandrel,
I also use an rcbs matchmaster die, I use a 334 bushing that undersizes my neck 4thousandth then I use an expander mandrel sized .306 to give me 2 thousands neck tension.
@@Sharberboy how do you measure and allow for “spring back”?
@@58harwood I anneal after every firing so I account for 0 spring back.
@@Sharberboy so you don’t actually measure it in any way, just assume it’s zero because you anneal every time? Good luck with that!
@@58harwood so I measure several loaded rounds, subtract 004 from average, that gets my bushing size. Then I expand with 306 mandrel or 222 and I get my neck tension. It works for me and I get good results so I stick with it. I'm open for any ideas on change
You seem to have discounted the contribution of the ES and SD differences in the two loads.
Surely these are the result of differences in brass prep. and loading?
Wouldn't these also account for the spread of shots?
They were all prepped the same, at the same time. the only difference was seating depth. Seating depth affects ES and SD.
@@winninginthewind Great point - thank you for taking the time to pass that on.
It’s impossible to tell what if any other variables changed… to affect the result. To automatically conclude that this proves correlation between seating depth and group is blind faith… not science. You might be 100% correct, it’s just that this video is not valid proof.
However this video is proof that the group on the right is fantastic! Don’t change a thing!
Excellent analysis. Exactly why I mentioned this in the video. I believe the two groups accurately represent the difference in the loads, but this would not qualify as a scientifically convincing test.