Elizabeth McGovern character was EXACTLY what Conrad needed. Her sweet disposition, you see where she lived, her home, it was simple but full of life and love! Her taking his arm, leading him inside, telling her mom that she had a guest... just loved her in this.
Sutherland as Calvin may have seemed obtuse in the beginning of the film but he slowly realized the dynamic that caused the trouble in his family. His ultimate revelation in the dining room scene was profound and moving.
The movie was filmed on the north shore of Chicago. I've known dozens of families like that. One or both parents, when confronted with sad reality like that, usually will just eat it. To keep the happy, mostly perfect looking family image children are sacrificed all the time. Robert Redford, his directorial debut, showed rare insight and talent.
That dining room scene was so painful to watch. When she turned away from her son,it made an impression enough to really open her husband's eyes completely
RIP Donald, a great Canadian. June 20. 2024. One of the first big films to deal with trauma and mental illness. We used to sweep grief like this under rhe rug.
In the restaurant Beth tells Cal not to "indulge" Conrad. Listening to and trying to understand the pain another person is going through, especially your own child, isn't indulgence - it's being a wise parent. Saying that proved Beth didn't understand either her son nor her husband.
Totally true. I think it’s also such an indicator of Beth feeling like the spotlight isn’t on her and instead everything seemingly revolves around Conrad. If anyone “indulges” themselves, it’s Beth. She needs plays and parties and vacations and she resents Conrad for infringing on her comforting distractions.
i have found that is very rare to find a woman who cares about anybody other than herself especially when a father has a special relationshp with his son - they call it jealousy!
"everything's jello and pudding with you Dad, you don't see things" Also LOVE the laugh the mother gives when the father suggests they all go to the shrink. That one little gesture says IT ALL. MTM should've won the Oscar for this role.
The scene at the end, when Calvin tells Beth-"You can't handle mess." Everyone else has and is. When Beth broke the plate, and fussing over it, saying "You know, I think this can be fixed. It's a clean break." She can offer advice on a plate she breaks, but her son's breakage, she ran away from. Let someone else fix him. I'll come home when he's 'fixed'. Sadly, she remained the broken one, not her familiy.
When this film came out Donald Sutherland took the worst reviews of everyone. Now you see the film and his subtlety and power is evident. Mary Tyler Moore received huge kudos, Tomothy Hutton won awards but watch this film now and it's Donald Sutherland floundering as father and husband who solidifies this film. It works because of his anchor
It's a pivotal scene because we know by Beth's own admission that she will never "change." And she is the source of the problem within the family. Her obstinacy and outright disdain for the therapy of her son shows just how awful a mother she is. The emotional bond between mother and son no longer exists. She must go.
With the recent death of Donald Sutherland, I think most people look back on the Hunger Games, and sometimes even Pride and Prejudice, as the highlights of his career. But for the way he displayed a torn, empathetic father in a family that looked down on emotional expression… this will always be one of my favorite acting roles of all time.
Beth was a victim of her social status/persona. I've seen a lot of it in our community - perceived status over family. It's sad to watch it play out...
When Conrad hugged Beth she realized how bad she had treated him also blaming him for Buck's death. That is what you can expect when you sacrifice everything to stay at the top of the social ladder.
That part when Beth finally breaks down, I believe, is not so much from the pain overwhelming her, but more to the realization that Calvin was 100$% right with everything he accused her of. I mean she waits until she is completely alone going through the motion of leaving and breaks down then. NEVER with anyone around least of all her family. Makes me wonder if she didn't break down, in private, maybe every single day.
I am struck that Beth's beauty is presented but then not properly acknowledged in the film. The rest of the action would have taken place against the background of Calvin's desire for her.
dunbustin Her beauty was acknowledged when Calvin says, “You are beautiful, but you’re so cautious.” and in the flashback of the two of them dancing together. I got the sense that Calvin was so entranced by her that he couldn’t admit until the end that she was the cause of the problem.
Her reaction to the hug is not rejection, it’s being stunned like by a bee. She has no idea what it feels like to be upended. Buck is her rock. And the realization at the end about whether there is love or not is the tragedy.
The scene that you’re talking about is when he hugs her, and that is a reaction that I still remember all these years later and it’s stuck with me..😢😢😢 the visceral reaction she has when he hugs her. Almost like she’s disgusted.
She's not a nice person- she's cold and brittle, she values social appearances more than anything else in life, even at the expense of being a real, loving person to her troubled son. Yes, MTM played the role very well, but the role itself is an awful person.
The human played by MTM lacks being an awful person, in my opinion. The human has just lacked looking at younger parts of herself sufficiently which are wounded, traumatised, and developmentally stuck. She projects her own wounds outward and considers parts of others awful rather than engaging her own healing. That healing often has to be done with an outside person which can assist looking at parts of oneself in a compassionate manner.
I love how Calvin says " that's the point " when he asks her to go to therapy & she says " he doesn't know us " exactly they need an unbiased professional to help them w/o pre judgment. Calvin broke My heart when Beth says " I want this to be a nice Christmas " & he says " I do too I want them all to be nice Christmases. Beth refuses to allow anyone to grieve buck b/c she literally can't handle it , real emotions not the facade of what she thinks is a perfect family. I think Conrad knew his mom didn't care for him but hos brother was the buffer & Conrad lived his brother & father. As Calvin said " we wouod have been alright of their was no mess ( bucks death" I imagine that's true. Calvin had his head on the sand about Beth & Beth was so happy w/ her favorite son. Conrad could be around his mom only when bucky was there.
I like your perspective on this - I always though Beth probably had a bit more feelings toward Conrad before Buck's death - or at least a little more affection, but the flashback scene doesn't indicate that. Just now, I'm wondering if Conrad was an "oops" baby?
@Jeff White ty that's interesting about the " oops " baby. Beth esp & Calvin seem very controlled & planners. For sure bucky was her first born & she adored him. If I had to guess Calvin probably wanted another baby & Beth would have been happy w/ just her fave child but since she is all about facade & what looks perfect on the surface she probably figured " the perfect family " has two kids the big house w/ the white picket fence. They used to say the perfect American family was having 2 kids the boy then the girl. Maybe Beth wanted a daughter. Or maybe she got pregnant & as she bonded more & more w/ buck during the 9 months as the boys seem to only be a year or 2 apart tops as they share the same hs friends. So I think as she got closer to giving birth deep inside she was thinking oh no I love buck so much I have nothing left for Conrad. I mean seeing how Beth is w/ Conrad it's hard to see her even taking care of infant Conrad, like time w/ an Infant requires so much attention. My guess is after seeing the movie & reading & watching a lot of analysis really is Beth was happy as long as buck was there. As the boys grew older I'm sure Conrad showed signs of shyness & being more introverted & more intense than buck. Maybe Conrad picked up those traits from Beth as Calvin tells the psychiatrist that really " Beth & Conrad are so much alike" so I think Beth is truly at her core introverted intense & shy & I'm sure she doesn't like these true traits of hers so it makes her love buck even more b/c he's the opposite. To her buck is the epitome of the perfect American teenage boy. He's handsome very popular a great athlete basically the big man on campus. We see all this when Beth enters bucks room & it's filled w/ trophy medals & pics of various friends. We also know this from flashbacks & the exposition from characters. Like Calvin says " I miss seeing all the guys around here " so it tells us the gaggle of friends buck & Conrad had were through buck. W/o him nobody comes over anymore. Also in the flashback Conrad has of buck & his mom he's telling a story of him w/ some girl & how drunk he got. Conrad is smiling & listening & Beth is literally fawning at him like a school girl. So in that example u can see Conrad loves bucky & the mom loves bucky. All love dad. So as I said in my previous post I'm sure if Calvin & Conrad b4 bucks death really thought about it they'd say Beth favors buck. Since buck & Conrad are close & everyone happy it's not even an issue. Buck is the buffer between Beth & Conrad. The most savage line in the movie is when Beth says to Conrad " buck never would have been in the hospital " God that was an evil thing to say. So she sees buck as perfect & no mess. Conrad finally tells Calvin " she hates me " later when Calvin says to Beth he thinks u hate him Beth never says " that's not true or I love him she says " mothers don't hate their sons " Beth only ever loved Conrad on theory not in real life. She " loves " him b/c that's what moms do. I'm sure Conrad trying to kill himself was the last straw that Beth was so over Conrad. To her he creates mess & she can't have that. A more cynical view I've thought is to her if one son had to go why her favorite. Conrad is very aware of this. So it really adds to his already awful survivors guilt. But to feel " my mom wishes it was me " I think led to Conrad's spiral to end his life. Finally Conrad tells his dad " u don't see things " meaning Beth! Later when Calvin says to the Dr " I think I know why I came. To talk bout myself " then it cuts right to Calvin in the car looking like his soul was just snatched. I'm sure he came to the horrid realization that his wife really doesn't love their surviving son & that was something he couod not bare & this starts him on the road to now seeing things & when he sees that Beth just can't love Conrad he decided he doesn't love her anymore. He really had a choice hos son that was making strides to recover or his wife that was helping Conrad get worse. He chose right. Conrad.
Sissy Spacek is about becoming someone for CMD realistically. - Moore is about a fake persona so that people don’t see the real her in OP. -- Ironic how the 2 leading Oscar contenders for Actress were for performances that were the complete opposite of one another. Love ❤️ both performances & think they’re equally strong b/c they hit all the right notes of their character. -- Oscar time, to me, it wasn’t a question of who they thought was better in their respective role, but more of a question of which role they considered more challenging?
She didnt want to become a nurturing mother to her son who was struggling with guilt loosing his brother.he just wanted her support.the father became the nuturer.left her,she didnt open up her heart.lots of mothers are like that..who arent mothers..wounded generation after generation
Academy award winner in 1980. Supbet.v. acting. This film I saw a few times. Excellent story. Very well done. Robert Redford who directed ordinary people did a superb job.Love this film.
This Movie is So,Sooooo Good, I have seen it when I was a kid and I loved it then and I still love it now also I have it on dvd along with Kramer vs Kramer I learned a lot from this movie to add to my life when I was Growing up as boy into a Man that part when Father and Son looked at each other I said from their HEART I love you ! That just always made me burst into tears when I was a boy and still have me in tears now that i am a man and i always told my kids that i love them ,the boys and the girls, our kids needed to know that, all that trash about Men don't suppose to cry Please!! My kids have seen me cry and really respect me and I respect them first and it feels so Good and it's a Peace of mind to be free to love but this Movie here is a classic that never gets old , I love it!!!❤👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
When Beth say's in the restaurant "I want this to be a nice Christmas" shows how detached she is. In reality it's going to be a horrible Christmas! Their child recently died. Christmas, New years, Thanksgiving, birthdays, they're all going to be terrible because their son's not going to be there. Beth seems totally unaware of this and unable to deal with it.
Excellent portrayl of a covert narcissist that projects perfection to everyone in the world but never their inner, broken self they spend their whole life covering up.
I can't remember if I've commented on this before, so forgive me if this is a repeat. The fascination I have is the difference between the book and the movie. (Spoiler alert - stop reading now.) In the book, Beth leaves Calvin in a rage, accusing him basically of being weak and not being able to stand his "poor Beth" look anymore, while Calvin is pleading with her not to leave him. The flip in the movie is curious, and to me, a little more satisfying, because Cal finally takes control and is honest - he's had enough of her attitude toward Conrad. Frankly, I had just a little bit of a fist pump and "YES" when he told her that. But then, my gut wrenched a little when she got her bags out of the closet. That walk from the kitchen to the bedroom was surreal to her, and I know that feeling.
Interesting difference! I think both endings are valid, but in different ways. Beth leaving in a rage and taking it out on Calvin is realistic for someone like her. When emotionally fragile people feel trapped or cornered it’s not unusual for them to explode with defensive anger. She puts all the blame on Calvin, completely absolving herself of any wrong-doing, and leaves believing she is the victim. Whereas with movie Beth, she is so fragile that she can’t even say anything to acknowledge the “mess” Cal is leaving at her feet with his confession at the dinner table. She won’t even touch it. Seemingly all she hears is that he “doesn’t love her anymore” and simply takes that as her cue to leave. She starts packing up her things without saying a single word. Both endings realistically explore Beth’s character in different ways. The movie ending I think makes a good case for being able to ultimately sympathize with Beth since we see her break down and shed tears, but her refusal to respond to ANY of the heartbreaking things Cal said is almost too cold for words.
3:50 _"Tell me something. Do you love me? Do you really love me?"_ _"I feel the way I've always felt about you."_ Kind of chilling dialogue; Beth could not directly answer Calvin's question, which leads him to conclude about what Beth did with her love ... buried it with her late son. It proves the dynamic: Conrad wound up being the strong one as he ultimately confronted and overcame his own internal conflict. Beth is the weak one as she seemed to avoid her own pain and refused to deal with the loss of Buck, even going so far as to run away from her own family in the end (as an aside, there is a certain Oedipus complex between Beth and Buck at play here). Calvin is the one who's been mentally straight all along, despite appearing aloof, as he didn't try to bury his pain like Conrad and Beth had done and has tried his best to understand them all this time. Indeed, when Conrad began to blame himself for Beth's leaving, Calvin put his foot down and explained to his son quite assertively that Beth's leaving is nobody's fault.
Beth’s inability to give Calvin a straight answer was the nail in the coffin for him. Which is why I think Calvin reacts so strongly at the end when Conrad says “I love you”. Beth couldn’t say she loved him, but his son could. Father and son can help each other heal. They’re gonna be okay. ❤️🩹
I remember a chapter in the book where Calvin is thinking back when he was in law school, and his professor/mentor is warning him that Beth is Not a giver. The professor’s name was Arnold Bacon. Beth derisively called him “Fagan”. She knew he could see right through her manipulations.
In a year in which a much weaker actress won (Julia Roberts, Gwyneth Paltrow, Sandra Bullock), MTM would have won the Oscar. Her performance still gives me chills
I think the thrust of this movie is that we are supposed to have ambivalent feelings about Beth. I know I do. At times I feel sorry for her, seeing her as much of a victim as Conrad. But in the restaurant scene she is despicable; manipulative and selfish. This is the side of Beth I loathe.
I couldn't agree more however there are two ways to see who she is: She was obviously devastated when they lost Buck. Had she gradually forgave Conrad and invested all the love to him as a mother would and he abruptly died; she would be a total wreck and possibly suicidal. Now she lost two sons. The other way is she really blames Conrad for Buck's death when it was so clear it wasn't his fault. He didn't raise the sail fast enough to keep the boat afloat; or had he been strong enough physically to pull Buck up with one hand back onto the boat. I had a childhood friend who died in a motorcycle accident 20 years ago. His younger sister died of a drug overdose 5 years before. I still talk to their parents once in a while. They never brought up their children and have pics of them in their living room. I can only imagine...
Yes, and it never gets better in the book. She, in fact, leaves him because she can't stand his "Poor Beth" looks and wringing his hands over her the way he does over Conrad.
“Mothers don’t hate their sons!” The fight at the golf course. Not “I don’t hate Con, I love him!” Mothers are not supposed to hate their sons but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t.
She couldn't be there. She said she couldn't do it. MTM in this role...she wasn't some casual b***ch. She was a real woman who Just. Could.Not.Do.It. So buttoned up. So...*angry*...and still it was--what--an aberration? A misfire? No. It was outside of her ken, outside of her skills. She (re)acted the way she did because she saw things falling apart. She tried, and she knew nobody knew how much. I can't hate her.
3:30 When Conrad hugs Beth, either her reaction is feeling degraded or repulsed, or his physical intention to his mother makes her feel like a weakling who deprives herself of receiving affection that she couldn't offer.
Great observations Isabel. When Conrad hugged Beth, it completely exposed her and finally proved what Calvin had been both fearing and denying. Beth lost all the leverage she thought she had up until that moment. She was now officially out of excuses.
It’s really fun to see other fans of this movie speculate after all these years what was going through Beth’s mind when she couldn’t hug Conrad back. Was it disgust? Realization? Heartbreak? Rejection? But at the same time I’m not sure we, the audience, are supposed to know 100%. I think the fact that she shuts down and gives nothing is the point. The point is that Conrad reached out to her and she didn’t reach back. She goes so far as to claim she can’t. And what’s worse is that she isn’t even interested in learning how to try. She accepts that she can’t feel anything.
When I first saw this I thought she was awful but now that I’m older I look at it differently.Im not saying I agree with her but it’s just too painful to look at bad times that happened I have plenty of them.The son knows how to play the game. Letting go and forgiving her because it’s over the accident. It is over and the problem now is HER?
Not 'Mommie Dearest' but verrry similar-raging narcissistic, different stratosphere than just 'selfish', completely void of empathy, sympathy, connecting, being rationale (meeting in the middle/compromise)as much as you make the case crystal clear dead in eye, etc...ALL about them (and won't budge) to a sickening extreme degree. 'This' kind of narcissism unfortunately isn't rare in some variation or another. Beth is a VERY broken woman who almost no doubt was 'broken' and endured severe trauma at very pivotal times her childhood. Of course it's easier and tempting to just call her an 'ice queen b*tch' but it's not that simple...or accurate at all.
I should read the book but I dont think beth was abused or anything as a child I think she learned from her mom that appearance money status is what matters. Beth also as calvin states was so much like conrad. She was probably very introverted in her school days & in many scenes we see buck was the clown the funny one the guy that had all the freinds all the trophy's & I think beth admired that in buck & all the accolades she got by being the " golden boys " mother. She saw conrad as weak & quiet & those are qualities she hated about herself. It killed her that buck died & conrad was stronger & survived. She also knows in her heart if someone had to die she would have rather it was conrad. As conrad is calling her out more & revealing who she is notice she wants to literally ignore his existence.
I’ve always interpreted Beth as someone who did indeed love her husband and remaining child, but simply couldn’t deal with anything outside her boundaries. Calvin and Conrad eventually found the tools to work through their own anger and tragedy. Beth couldn’t face the thought of revisiting her loss, and just became lonely and brittle. I often wondered how a sequel would’ve dealt with it. Would Beth go to a psychiatrist? Would she be able to work through her problems? Her husband and son would have forgiven her, but I don’t think anything could have convinced her to try. She was too steeped in grief to embrace a happy future.
I am pretty sure she didn't cry at the funeral so when she clutched her luggage that was the first time she was able to let things come out. Great acting all around.
This is a good collection of clips, though some of the source material (as in the dining room encounter) seems to be decaying. This gives a real picture of the primary performances--the nuclear family scenes--so to speak. It was Redford's choice to shoot the family scenes on sets (which were an approximate recreation of the house used for the exteriors) in a decommissioned armory south of Chicago. These scenes required real rehearsal and real time to create. I believe it was Moore (who deserved an Oscar) who said, tellingly: "There was one set of step leading down to nowhere and one set going up to nowhere". These days, it's difficult for me to believe that Redford managed to do all of this on a meagre production budget of about six million dollars (this is not counting the cost for publicity) and without a one explosion, CG image or employing a single character from a Marvel comic book. Those were the days; gone are they now.
In real life I didn t see any boy so interested in his mother love and attention. Neither me, moms become ignored by young children and it happens with fathers too
Such an intense moment - she’s shocked and contemptuous and envious and overall hurt - I wonder if her forgiveness doesn’t just shine a light on how damaged she really is
Hopefully someone will respond soon because other wise I'm gonna have to rent it. I was watching this movie and very much into it when the phone rang; long distance so I took the call and I missed the last 20 or so minutes of the movie. Is this the final scene with Beth catching a cab and leaving or was there more? I tried to watch bits and pieces that I missed but not sure if this is the end of not?
@George Kafiridis Thank you. Like I said I watched a few clips here that looked unfamiliar and I hadn't seen but I wasn't sure if there was more. Now I know this was the final scene it is almost disappointing to know she and her son never resolved their issues. Or I should say she never resolved all her issues. Good movie though. Thanks again.
The final scene after the cab drives off is Conrad going downstairs. He sees that his father is in the backyard standing in the cold. So, he puts on a coat and walks to his father outside. His father tells him that his mother has gone back to Houston. Conrad then blames himself for his mother leaving and his father scolds him for doing that. "Don't do that! Don't do that to yourself!" Then, his father stops and says he shouldn't have scolded his son and his son says that he sometimes needed to be scolded like his brother was. The father says his brother needed scolding, but not Conrad. The two sit down on the edge of the patio deck and Conrad then says that he always admired his father. That he felt he always had the answer to everything. His father says that he shouldn't put too much stock in people because they are bound to disappoint you. Conrad says, "You never disappointment me... (very long pause)... I love you, Dad." The father turns, with tears in his eyes and says while choking up, "I love you, too." They embrace each other and the camera pulls back slowly as the closing music starts and you see Conrad and his father embracing in a very empty, snow covered back yard. It fades to black and the credits run.
@@ancientpurple Thank you very much for taking the time to explain the final scene. Like I said I missed the last 10 or so minutes of the film and searched here for what I had missed. George Kafiridis was nice enough to reply but I now see he had forgotten some of the final story. I wish I hadn't taken that call because the final scene sounds very emotional and I'm sorry I missed it after watching the whole movie. I now fell like I did see the final scene thanks to ancientpurple and his very descriptive synopsis. Thanks again for so much detail and your time.
I saw an interview once with Mary Tyler Moore, who said she would always be put off and even a little hurt , when people would say ''Wow Beth was such a b****" Mary saw her as a ''brittle woman'', weak and dealing with grief in an awkward way which absorbed her own energy without realizing it, likewise created the very strained relationship with Conrad,.. MTM felt the relationship probably could have worked out had she had more courage to face her feelings,, but the result were arguments, and uncalled for things being said. I'm paraphrasing a lot of what she said, but I'm going to go with the actress who played the character, and she makes a lot sense !
What pisses me off most about this movie is that the husband was too easy on her to a fault. He should have laid into her more harshly when she needed it. And boy did she need it. He's not cool or tough enough. He's a milquetoast wimp.
I don't think husband was too bad. He knew he was dealing with an emotionally frail wife. When he started bombing her at the end, she just broke into pieces. He could have done that anytime throughout the movie, and probably knew it. He chooses to try his hardest to keep the peace and make things right, until he realized it wasn't going to work.
POWERFUL 🎬 MOVIE,Great Directing by Robert Redford,Great performances by all four actors (Sutherland,Moore, Hirsch and especially Timothy Hutton.) This Movie 🎬 has always made me cry 😢 😭 😥‼️
Beth never had a heart. It barely showed itself near the end when she broke down. A true ice woman. How do you not love your only remaining child? She gave birth to him for God's sake! This just goes to show you that first bornes are favored before all others. I'm living proof of that, having a two year's older brother who was first born.
Donald Sutherland deserves to be nominated for an Oscar too. Everybody did a wonderful acting job here.
This film, this story, has so many scenes that are masterpieces.
That slow deliberate way. She turns her head, after he hugs her. I can never get it out of my mind,even to this day. It literally haunts me.
like she has to shake it off.
It literally tells you everything you need to know.
Elizabeth McGovern character was EXACTLY what Conrad needed. Her sweet disposition, you see where she lived, her home, it was simple but full of life and love! Her taking his arm, leading him inside, telling her mom that she had a guest... just loved her in this.
Sutherland as Calvin may have seemed obtuse in the beginning of the film but he slowly realized the dynamic that caused the trouble in his family. His ultimate revelation in the dining room scene was profound and moving.
The movie was filmed on the north shore of Chicago. I've known dozens of families like that. One or both parents, when confronted with sad reality like that, usually will just eat it. To keep the happy, mostly perfect looking family image children are sacrificed all the time. Robert Redford, his directorial debut, showed rare insight and talent.
That dining room scene was so painful to watch. When she turned away from her son,it made an impression enough to really open her husband's eyes completely
The cast was so perfect. It’s a crime Donald Sutherland wasn’t nominated for an Oscar. He was brilliant in this movie. As was the entire cast.
Damn! He didn't get a nomination for this spectacular performance? 😢
Robert redfords masterpeace 🎥
Yes, indeed!!
RIP Donald, a great Canadian. June 20. 2024. One of the first big films to deal with trauma and mental illness. We used to sweep grief like this under rhe rug.
😢
In the restaurant Beth tells Cal not to "indulge" Conrad. Listening to and trying to understand the pain another person is going through, especially your own child, isn't indulgence - it's being a wise parent. Saying that proved Beth didn't understand either her son nor her husband.
Totally true. I think it’s also such an indicator of Beth feeling like the spotlight isn’t on her and instead everything seemingly revolves around Conrad. If anyone “indulges” themselves, it’s Beth. She needs plays and parties and vacations and she resents Conrad for infringing on her comforting distractions.
i have found that is very rare to find a woman who cares about anybody other than herself especially when a father has a special relationshp with his son - they call it jealousy!
I love her performance but damn Beth's character was so cold!
Beth was massively damaged and "faking" being a normal suburban "lady."
She was more messed up than Conrad. He is in the process of healing throughout the movie. Moore was incapable of change. So sad .
Cold and Very manipulative.
Beth was the character I felt the most sympathy for, because she could not accept the truth about herself.
...as ice.
Mary Tyler Moore should've won an Oscar for this and Donald Sutherland too who I adore
Rebecca Jones he did win
MAXI PAZ Donald Sutherland didn’t win, he wasn’t even nominated
She was robbed. And now that she's gone, that injustice can never be addressed.
@@keythdanielsen8316 Right on! She played a very difficult role and nailed it. An Oscar caliber performance. She was nominated and should have won.
They both were phenomenal. Don't need some outdated political academy to put their stamp of approval.
When someone can't hug their child it is very hard to watch. Her pain is unbearable and she is unable to deal with it.
MTM was so good, it probably took me a year to like her again
I used to love her TV show. Seeing her in this blew my mind. She pulled off the ice queen perfectly
"everything's jello and pudding with you Dad, you don't see things" Also LOVE the laugh the mother gives when the father suggests they all go to the shrink. That one little gesture says IT ALL. MTM should've won the Oscar for this role.
Yes, she deserved an Oscar for her role in this awesome film. RIP Mary Tyler Moore. .xx.
The scene at the end, when Calvin tells Beth-"You can't handle mess."
Everyone else has and is. When Beth broke the plate, and fussing over it, saying "You know, I think this can be fixed. It's a clean break." She can offer advice on a plate she breaks, but her son's breakage, she ran away from. Let someone else fix him. I'll come home when he's 'fixed'. Sadly, she remained the broken one, not her familiy.
Superbly well said, Lisa👍😉
When this film came out Donald Sutherland took the worst reviews of everyone. Now you see the film and his subtlety and power is evident. Mary Tyler Moore received huge kudos, Tomothy Hutton won awards but watch this film now and it's Donald Sutherland floundering as father and husband who solidifies this film. It works because of his anchor
Also all the actors did a Wonderful job bringing their Characters to life from paper to the screen!!! 👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽👍🏽
It's a pivotal scene because we know by Beth's own admission that she will never "change." And she is the source of the problem within the family. Her obstinacy and outright disdain for the therapy of her son shows just how awful a mother she is. The emotional bond between mother and son no longer exists. She must go.
With the recent death of Donald Sutherland, I think most people look back on the Hunger Games, and sometimes even Pride and Prejudice, as the highlights of his career. But for the way he displayed a torn, empathetic father in a family that looked down on emotional expression… this will always be one of my favorite acting roles of all time.
Bravo!
Beth was a victim of her social status/persona. I've seen a lot of it in our community - perceived status over family. It's sad to watch it play out...
When Conrad hugged Beth she realized how bad she had treated him also blaming him for Buck's death. That is what you can expect when you sacrifice everything to stay at the top of the social ladder.
Status in the home as well as in society is what mattered the most to her.
I wouldn't quite put it that way. It's more, that's all she ever knew
That part when Beth finally breaks down, I believe, is not so much from the pain overwhelming her, but more to the realization that Calvin was 100$% right with everything he accused her of. I mean she waits until she is completely alone going through the motion of leaving and breaks down then. NEVER with anyone around least of all her family. Makes me wonder if she didn't break down, in private, maybe every single day.
I am struck that Beth's beauty is presented but then not properly acknowledged in the film. The rest of the action would have taken place against the background of Calvin's desire for her.
dunbustin Her beauty was acknowledged when Calvin says, “You are beautiful, but you’re so cautious.” and in the flashback of the two of them dancing together. I got the sense that Calvin was so entranced by her that he couldn’t admit until the end that she was the cause of the problem.
Im glad you have this observation. This is exactly what MTM meant about her seeing Beth as a victim. Pretty astute, I should say!
Doubt it.
Thank you .
Her reaction to the hug is not rejection, it’s being stunned like by a bee. She has no idea what it feels like to be upended. Buck is her rock. And the realization at the end about whether there is love or not is the tragedy.
The scene that you’re talking about is when he hugs her, and that is a reaction that I still remember all these years later and it’s stuck with me..😢😢😢 the visceral reaction she has when he hugs her. Almost like she’s disgusted.
It put her on the spot. It forced her to fully reveal herself and it forced the dad to see her for what she really is.
She's not a nice person- she's cold and brittle, she values social appearances more than anything else in life, even at the expense of being a real, loving person to her troubled son. Yes, MTM played the role very well, but the role itself is an awful person.
The human played by MTM lacks being an awful person, in my opinion. The human has just lacked looking at younger parts of herself sufficiently which are wounded, traumatised, and developmentally stuck. She projects her own wounds outward and considers parts of others awful rather than engaging her own healing. That healing often has to be done with an outside person which can assist looking at parts of oneself in a compassionate manner.
I would say Beth is a severely damaged person
I love how Calvin says " that's the point " when he asks her to go to therapy & she says " he doesn't know us " exactly they need an unbiased professional to help them w/o pre judgment. Calvin broke My heart when Beth says " I want this to be a nice Christmas " & he says " I do too I want them all to be nice Christmases. Beth refuses to allow anyone to grieve buck b/c she literally can't handle it , real emotions not the facade of what she thinks is a perfect family. I think Conrad knew his mom didn't care for him but hos brother was the buffer & Conrad lived his brother & father. As Calvin said " we wouod have been alright of their was no mess ( bucks death" I imagine that's true. Calvin had his head on the sand about Beth & Beth was so happy w/ her favorite son. Conrad could be around his mom only when bucky was there.
I like your perspective on this - I always though Beth probably had a bit more feelings toward Conrad before Buck's death - or at least a little more affection, but the flashback scene doesn't indicate that. Just now, I'm wondering if Conrad was an "oops" baby?
@Jeff White ty that's interesting about the " oops " baby. Beth esp & Calvin seem very controlled & planners. For sure bucky was her first born & she adored him. If I had to guess Calvin probably wanted another baby & Beth would have been happy w/ just her fave child but since she is all about facade & what looks perfect on the surface she probably figured " the perfect family " has two kids the big house w/ the white picket fence. They used to say the perfect American family was having 2 kids the boy then the girl. Maybe Beth wanted a daughter. Or maybe she got pregnant & as she bonded more & more w/ buck during the 9 months as the boys seem to only be a year or 2 apart tops as they share the same hs friends. So I think as she got closer to giving birth deep inside she was thinking oh no I love buck so much I have nothing left for Conrad. I mean seeing how Beth is w/ Conrad it's hard to see her even taking care of infant Conrad, like time w/ an Infant requires so much attention. My guess is after seeing the movie & reading & watching a lot of analysis really is Beth was happy as long as buck was there. As the boys grew older I'm sure Conrad showed signs of shyness & being more introverted & more intense than buck. Maybe Conrad picked up those traits from Beth as Calvin tells the psychiatrist that really " Beth & Conrad are so much alike" so I think Beth is truly at her core introverted intense & shy & I'm sure she doesn't like these true traits of hers so it makes her love buck even more b/c he's the opposite. To her buck is the epitome of the perfect American teenage boy. He's handsome very popular a great athlete basically the big man on campus. We see all this when Beth enters bucks room & it's filled w/ trophy medals & pics of various friends. We also know this from flashbacks & the exposition from characters. Like Calvin says " I miss seeing all the guys around here " so it tells us the gaggle of friends buck & Conrad had were through buck. W/o him nobody comes over anymore. Also in the flashback Conrad has of buck & his mom he's telling a story of him w/ some girl & how drunk he got. Conrad is smiling & listening & Beth is literally fawning at him like a school girl. So in that example u can see Conrad loves bucky & the mom loves bucky. All love dad. So as I said in my previous post I'm sure if Calvin & Conrad b4 bucks death really thought about it they'd say Beth favors buck. Since buck & Conrad are close & everyone happy it's not even an issue. Buck is the buffer between Beth & Conrad. The most savage line in the movie is when Beth says to Conrad " buck never would have been in the hospital " God that was an evil thing to say. So she sees buck as perfect & no mess. Conrad finally tells Calvin " she hates me " later when Calvin says to Beth he thinks u hate him Beth never says " that's not true or I love him she says " mothers don't hate their sons " Beth only ever loved Conrad on theory not in real life. She " loves " him b/c that's what moms do. I'm sure Conrad trying to kill himself was the last straw that Beth was so over Conrad. To her he creates mess & she can't have that. A more cynical view I've thought is to her if one son had to go why her favorite. Conrad is very aware of this. So it really adds to his already awful survivors guilt. But to feel " my mom wishes it was me " I think led to Conrad's spiral to end his life.
Finally Conrad tells his dad " u don't see things " meaning Beth! Later when Calvin says to the Dr " I think I know why I came. To talk bout myself " then it cuts right to Calvin in the car looking like his soul was just snatched. I'm sure he came to the horrid realization that his wife really doesn't love their surviving son & that was something he couod not bare & this starts him on the road to now seeing things & when he sees that Beth just can't love Conrad he decided he doesn't love her anymore. He really had a choice hos son that was making strides to recover or his wife that was helping Conrad get worse. He chose right. Conrad.
Moral of this story is, she had the most emotional problems of any of them, but her projection effected everyone in her family.
Sissy Spacek is about becoming someone for CMD realistically. - Moore is about a fake persona so that people don’t see the real her in OP. -- Ironic how the 2 leading Oscar contenders for Actress were for performances that were the complete opposite of one another. Love ❤️ both performances & think they’re equally strong b/c they hit all the right notes of their character. -- Oscar time, to me, it wasn’t a question of who they thought was better in their respective role, but more of a question of which role they considered more challenging?
Mary Tyler Moore as we'd never seen her before!
Yes I kind of expected her to say, "oh Rob!" LOL
@@sabrinatwigg1966 Who would have though Laura Petrie could be Beth Jarrett. Mary nailed all three roles including Mary Richards.
She didnt want to become a nurturing mother to her son who was struggling with guilt loosing his brother.he just wanted her support.the father became the nuturer.left her,she didnt open up her heart.lots of mothers are like that..who arent mothers..wounded generation after generation
Academy award winner in 1980. Supbet.v. acting. This film I saw a few times. Excellent story. Very well done. Robert Redford who directed ordinary people did a superb job.Love this film.
Mary Tyler Moore was going through the grief of the death of her own son. I don't know how she got through this movie.
MTM's son died several months after this movie was completed.
This Movie is So,Sooooo Good, I have seen it when I was a kid and I loved it then and I still love it now also I have it on dvd along with Kramer vs Kramer I learned a lot from this movie to add to my life when I was Growing up as boy into a Man that part when Father and Son looked at each other I said from their HEART I love you ! That just always made me burst into tears when I was a boy and still have me in tears now that i am a man and i always told my kids that i love them ,the boys and the girls, our kids needed to know that, all that trash about Men don't suppose to cry Please!! My kids have seen me cry and really respect me and I respect them first and it feels so Good and it's a Peace of mind to be free to love but this Movie here is a classic that never gets old , I love it!!!❤👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
Lot of stigmatism against psychiatry in them days.
Mary Tyler Moore was brilliant!
When Beth say's in the restaurant "I want this to be a nice Christmas" shows how detached she is. In reality it's going to be a horrible Christmas! Their child recently died. Christmas, New years, Thanksgiving, birthdays, they're all going to be terrible because their son's not going to be there. Beth seems totally unaware of this and unable to deal with it.
Excellent portrayl of a covert narcissist that projects perfection to everyone in the world but never their inner, broken self they spend their whole life covering up.
This is what you call acting.
I can't remember if I've commented on this before, so forgive me if this is a repeat. The fascination I have is the difference between the book and the movie. (Spoiler alert - stop reading now.) In the book, Beth leaves Calvin in a rage, accusing him basically of being weak and not being able to stand his "poor Beth" look anymore, while Calvin is pleading with her not to leave him. The flip in the movie is curious, and to me, a little more satisfying, because Cal finally takes control and is honest - he's had enough of her attitude toward Conrad. Frankly, I had just a little bit of a fist pump and "YES" when he told her that. But then, my gut wrenched a little when she got her bags out of the closet. That walk from the kitchen to the bedroom was surreal to her, and I know that feeling.
Interesting difference! I think both endings are valid, but in different ways. Beth leaving in a rage and taking it out on Calvin is realistic for someone like her. When emotionally fragile people feel trapped or cornered it’s not unusual for them to explode with defensive anger. She puts all the blame on Calvin, completely absolving herself of any wrong-doing, and leaves believing she is the victim. Whereas with movie Beth, she is so fragile that she can’t even say anything to acknowledge the “mess” Cal is leaving at her feet with his confession at the dinner table. She won’t even touch it. Seemingly all she hears is that he “doesn’t love her anymore” and simply takes that as her cue to leave. She starts packing up her things without saying a single word. Both endings realistically explore Beth’s character in different ways. The movie ending I think makes a good case for being able to ultimately sympathize with Beth since we see her break down and shed tears, but her refusal to respond to ANY of the heartbreaking things Cal said is almost too cold for words.
3:50
_"Tell me something. Do you love me? Do you really love me?"_
_"I feel the way I've always felt about you."_
Kind of chilling dialogue; Beth could not directly answer Calvin's question, which leads him to conclude about what Beth did with her love ... buried it with her late son.
It proves the dynamic: Conrad wound up being the strong one as he ultimately confronted and overcame his own internal conflict. Beth is the weak one as she seemed to avoid her own pain and refused to deal with the loss of Buck, even going so far as to run away from her own family in the end (as an aside, there is a certain Oedipus complex between Beth and Buck at play here). Calvin is the one who's been mentally straight all along, despite appearing aloof, as he didn't try to bury his pain like Conrad and Beth had done and has tried his best to understand them all this time. Indeed, when Conrad began to blame himself for Beth's leaving, Calvin put his foot down and explained to his son quite assertively that Beth's leaving is nobody's fault.
Beth’s inability to give Calvin a straight answer was the nail in the coffin for him. Which is why I think Calvin reacts so strongly at the end when Conrad says “I love you”. Beth couldn’t say she loved him, but his son could. Father and son can help each other heal. They’re gonna be okay. ❤️🩹
@@AGR04 And, of course, not just saying it but genuinely meaning it.
I remember a chapter in the book where Calvin is thinking back when he was in law school, and his professor/mentor is warning him that Beth is Not a giver. The professor’s name was Arnold Bacon. Beth derisively called him “Fagan”. She knew he could see right through her manipulations.
Thanks for posting this great movie.
In a year in which a much weaker actress won (Julia Roberts, Gwyneth Paltrow, Sandra Bullock), MTM would have won the Oscar. Her performance still gives me chills
I think the thrust of this movie is that we are supposed to have ambivalent feelings about Beth. I know I do. At times I feel sorry for her, seeing her as much of a victim as Conrad. But in the restaurant scene she is despicable; manipulative and selfish. This is the side of Beth I loathe.
I couldn't agree more however there are two ways to see who she is: She was obviously devastated when they lost Buck. Had she gradually forgave Conrad and invested all the love to him as a mother would and he abruptly died; she would be a total wreck and possibly suicidal. Now she lost two sons. The other way is she really blames Conrad for Buck's death when it was so clear it wasn't his fault. He didn't raise the sail fast enough to keep the boat afloat; or had he been strong enough physically to pull Buck up with one hand back onto the boat. I had a childhood friend who died in a motorcycle accident 20 years ago. His younger sister died of a drug overdose 5 years before. I still talk to their parents once in a while. They never brought up their children and have pics of them in their living room. I can only imagine...
Yes, and it never gets better in the book. She, in fact, leaves him because she can't stand his "Poor Beth" looks and wringing his hands over her the way he does over Conrad.
Perfect pairing.
Death tore this family apart. Great movie.
What a frigid character she played.
“Mothers don’t hate their sons!” The fight at the golf course. Not “I don’t hate Con, I love him!” Mothers are not supposed to hate their sons but that doesn’t mean she doesn’t.
She couldn't be there. She said she couldn't do it. MTM in this role...she wasn't some casual b***ch. She was a real woman who Just. Could.Not.Do.It. So buttoned up. So...*angry*...and still it was--what--an aberration? A misfire? No. It was outside of her ken, outside of her skills. She (re)acted the way she did because she saw things falling apart. She tried, and she knew nobody knew how much. I can't hate her.
3:30 When Conrad hugs Beth, either her reaction is feeling degraded or repulsed, or his physical intention to his mother makes her feel like a weakling who deprives herself of receiving affection that she couldn't offer.
Great observations Isabel. When Conrad hugged Beth, it completely exposed her and finally proved what Calvin had been both fearing and denying. Beth lost all the leverage she thought she had up until that moment. She was now officially out of excuses.
It’s really fun to see other fans of this movie speculate after all these years what was going through Beth’s mind when she couldn’t hug Conrad back. Was it disgust? Realization? Heartbreak? Rejection? But at the same time I’m not sure we, the audience, are supposed to know 100%. I think the fact that she shuts down and gives nothing is the point. The point is that Conrad reached out to her and she didn’t reach back. She goes so far as to claim she can’t. And what’s worse is that she isn’t even interested in learning how to try. She accepts that she can’t feel anything.
@@AGR04 Excellent observation, AGRO4. I couldn't say it better. Very well put.🙂🤏
I feel for Sutherland here, but at the same time he is blinding himself from the truths he doesn’t want to face
Honestly I think the most significant scene.
He was so nice to his Son. Why was he so mean to Katniss Everdeen and the Rest of the Districts. Seriously, DS is a great, Versatlile Actor.
When I first saw this I thought she was awful but now that I’m older I look at it differently.Im not saying I agree with her but it’s just too painful to look at bad times that happened I have plenty of them.The son knows how to play the game. Letting go and forgiving her because it’s over the accident. It is over and the problem now is HER?
Not 'Mommie Dearest' but verrry similar-raging narcissistic, different stratosphere than just 'selfish', completely void of empathy, sympathy, connecting, being rationale (meeting in the middle/compromise)as much as you make the case crystal clear dead in eye, etc...ALL about them (and won't budge) to a sickening extreme degree. 'This' kind of narcissism unfortunately isn't rare in some variation or another. Beth is a VERY broken woman who almost no doubt was 'broken' and endured severe trauma at very pivotal times her childhood. Of course it's easier and tempting to just call her an 'ice queen b*tch' but it's not that simple...or accurate at all.
I should read the book but I dont think beth was abused or anything as a child I think she learned from her mom that appearance money status is what matters. Beth also as calvin states was so much like conrad. She was probably very introverted in her school days & in many scenes we see buck was the clown the funny one the guy that had all the freinds all the trophy's & I think beth admired that in buck & all the accolades she got by being the " golden boys " mother. She saw conrad as weak & quiet & those are qualities she hated about herself. It killed her that buck died & conrad was stronger & survived. She also knows in her heart if someone had to die she would have rather it was conrad. As conrad is calling her out more & revealing who she is notice she wants to literally ignore his existence.
3:30 that look from mother about the hug... thst did it...
This thing is so real now... it's happening everywhere
Directed by Bob Redford
Who can handle it at all? I never did
Boy, do I empathize with Calvin, because Beth is my mother.
divorce is tough on kids
I’ve always interpreted Beth as someone who did indeed love her husband and remaining child, but simply couldn’t deal with anything outside her boundaries. Calvin and Conrad eventually found the tools to work through their own anger and tragedy. Beth couldn’t face the thought of revisiting her loss, and just became lonely and brittle. I often wondered how a sequel would’ve dealt with it. Would Beth go to a psychiatrist? Would she be able to work through her problems? Her husband and son would have forgiven her, but I don’t think anything could have convinced her to try. She was too steeped in grief to embrace a happy future.
I am pretty sure she didn't cry at the funeral so when she clutched her luggage that was the first time she was able to let things come out. Great acting all around.
This is a good collection of clips, though some of the source material (as in the dining room encounter) seems to be decaying. This gives a real picture of the primary performances--the nuclear family scenes--so to speak. It was Redford's choice to shoot the family scenes on sets (which were an approximate recreation of the house used for the exteriors) in a decommissioned armory south of Chicago. These scenes required real rehearsal and real time to create. I believe it was Moore (who deserved an Oscar) who said, tellingly: "There was one set of step leading down to nowhere and one set going up to nowhere". These days, it's difficult for me to believe that Redford managed to do all of this on a meagre production budget of about six million dollars (this is not counting the cost for publicity) and without a one explosion, CG image or employing a single character from a Marvel comic book. Those were the days; gone are they now.
You can’t ‘heal’ women like this - narcissistic to the core.
I totally agree!! She is a classic narcissist.
Like my mother. I don't see or talk to her anymore.
In real life I didn t see any boy so interested in his mother love and attention. Neither me, moms become ignored by young children and it happens with fathers too
At 3:30, watch a woman turn to stone.
Such an intense moment - she’s shocked and contemptuous and envious and overall hurt - I wonder if her forgiveness doesn’t just shine a light on how damaged she really is
Hopefully someone will respond soon because other wise I'm gonna have to rent it. I was watching this movie and very much into it when the phone rang; long distance so I took the call and I missed the last 20 or so minutes of the movie. Is this the final scene with Beth catching a cab and leaving or was there more? I tried to watch bits and pieces that I missed but not sure if this is the end of not?
@George Kafiridis Thank you. Like I said I watched a few clips here that looked unfamiliar and I hadn't seen but I wasn't sure if there was more. Now I know this was the final scene it is almost disappointing to know she and her son never resolved their issues. Or I should say she never resolved all her issues. Good movie though. Thanks again.
The final scene after the cab drives off is Conrad going downstairs. He sees that his father is in the backyard standing in the cold. So, he puts on a coat and walks to his father outside. His father tells him that his mother has gone back to Houston. Conrad then blames himself for his mother leaving and his father scolds him for doing that. "Don't do that! Don't do that to yourself!" Then, his father stops and says he shouldn't have scolded his son and his son says that he sometimes needed to be scolded like his brother was. The father says his brother needed scolding, but not Conrad.
The two sit down on the edge of the patio deck and Conrad then says that he always admired his father. That he felt he always had the answer to everything. His father says that he shouldn't put too much stock in people because they are bound to disappoint you. Conrad says, "You never disappointment me... (very long pause)... I love you, Dad." The father turns, with tears in his eyes and says while choking up, "I love you, too." They embrace each other and the camera pulls back slowly as the closing music starts and you see Conrad and his father embracing in a very empty, snow covered back yard. It fades to black and the credits run.
@George Kafiridis No worries. I know this film by heart so I thought I would jump in. The final scene is so gripping.
@@ancientpurple Thank you very much for taking the time to explain the final scene. Like I said I missed the last 10 or so minutes of the film and searched here for what I had missed. George Kafiridis was nice enough to reply but I now see he had forgotten some of the final story. I wish I hadn't taken that call because the final scene sounds very emotional and I'm sorry I missed it after watching the whole movie. I now fell like I did see the final scene thanks to ancientpurple and his very descriptive synopsis. Thanks again for so much detail and your time.
@George Kafiridis No need to apologize I appreciate your initial response. You were one of only two that actually responded at all. Thanks....
Wouldn't it be nice and reality if they just packed their f****** bags and left but it's always the men that have to pack the f****** bags
I saw an interview once with Mary Tyler Moore, who said she would always be put off and even a little hurt , when people would say ''Wow Beth was such a b****" Mary saw her as a ''brittle woman'', weak and dealing with grief in an awkward way which absorbed her own energy without realizing it, likewise created the very strained relationship with Conrad,.. MTM felt the relationship probably could have worked out had she had more courage to face her feelings,, but the result were arguments, and uncalled for things being said. I'm paraphrasing a lot of what she said, but I'm going to go with the actress who played the character, and she makes a lot sense !
What pisses me off most about this movie is that the husband was too easy on her to a fault. He should have laid into her more harshly when she needed it. And boy did she need it. He's not cool or tough enough. He's a milquetoast wimp.
Didn’t have to, him saying he didn’t know if she was who she pretended to be, (loving wife and mom) was enough to make her go upstairs and pack...
I don't think husband was too bad. He knew he was dealing with an emotionally frail wife. When he started bombing her at the end, she just broke into pieces. He could have done that anytime throughout the movie, and probably knew it. He chooses to try his hardest to keep the peace and make things right, until he realized it wasn't going to work.
What part of Northbrook Court was this cafeteria filmed at?
I always thought it was Marshal Field's Water Tower Place.
I believe it was the café in the Neiman Marcus department store at Northbrook Court.
POWERFUL 🎬 MOVIE,Great Directing by Robert Redford,Great performances by all four actors (Sutherland,Moore, Hirsch and especially Timothy Hutton.) This Movie 🎬 has always made me cry 😢 😭 😥‼️
Beth never had a heart. It barely showed itself near the end when she broke down. A true ice woman. How do you not love your only remaining child? She gave birth to him for God's sake! This just goes to show you that first bornes are favored before all others. I'm living proof of that, having a two year's older brother who was first born.