Addressing The Sumo Haters
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
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If Jamal ain’t strong cause he’s built well to deadlift, then MJ ain’t good at basketball cause he’s tall
@Omne Obstat Strength isn't that simple though
Yep
@Omne Obstat... This statement isn't necessarily true. I understand the logic. But really, it's not a statement you can really make when you can't say for sure as you can't truly test it.
There are of course other ways to test for strength.
Omne Obstat Jamal started as a conventional puller and has pulled well over 800 pounds in comp. So who is he weaker in comparison to?
@Omne Obstat You're confusing energy with force. Pulling a further distance only requires more energy i.e. endurance, the force is the same. 1000 lbs is 1000 lbs no matter the ROM.
"Sumo is not conventional, that its true *next one* " lol
made me lol
Savage! ROLF
Is*
My conventional deadlift 220kg and my sumo is 280kg there not the same thing😐
Sumo for girls.
People that say that a sumo 1050 pound deadlift isn't impressive obviously have never went to the gym and there only training experience is that 3 pull ups that they did a few months back
Its impressive just not as impressive as conventional at the same weight.
@@jackburton307 what about jamals weight to pull ratio??? Surely that makes it super impressive
@@philipmullins2028 like I said it is very impressive but you just proved another point, no one at that light of weight would be pulling that heavy of a lift in conventional deadlift.
@@jackburton307 if your just looking at the pure strength then ye a conventional deadlift of that weight would be more impressive but you can't forget the level of flexibility it takes to do something like that and technique obviously
@@novicelifts5197 900 lbs is not 1050 lbs. You can't compare them the same.
I personally think it makes sense to have have two separate work records, one sumo and one conventional, keeps everyone happy that way.
It already is that way.
@@JorgeLourenco000 in what country
Apart from the people trying to sumo claim sumo is the same lift...
@@jeegunugger1871 in strongman sumo is not allowed and deadlift wr is always held by strongman guys
@@neerajnongmaithem392 Technically, Thor is lifting with a deadlifting suit so it isn't exactly the same as someone like Benedikt Magnusson who holds the raw deadlift record.
I'm sorry but I have to ask, did you make the sounds of your intro with your mouth?
Yea it sounds pretty horrible
Omg I can't unthink that now lmao
@@donpedro187 I like it lol. I like how his other channel has no commentary and the computer generated noise, while this one was made expressly for commentary so it has a human made noise
@@1TieDye1 What's his other channel?
@Steven Criscione Tbf Xanax and Alcohol is a lot of fun
I do both. Sumo seems to be easier on your back, but it’s way harder to get the bar moving up because you can’t drive with your legs as hard, conventional is easier to pull the bar off the ground but harder to lock out…I can’t decide which one I like better l but I Usually find myself doing sumo so my lower back isn’t as pissed off.
You're losing sumo your gains that way
if you think conventional is easier because you can drive up your legs, you're destroying your lower back.
Sumo is slower to break the ground but typically will move fast till the knees where it will usually stall, conventional is usually slower off the ground with an easier lockout
Great way to describe it
I think Sumo is perfectly valid as a lift and as an exercise but I still think it should be considered in a separate category to conventional because it isn't the same lift. Split jerk log presses, sumo deadlifts and wide grip benches with a massive arch all look cheap and, while perfectly valid on their own, are nonsensical to compare with conventional versions of these lifts. I appreciate it is somewhat of a grey area but the line has to be drawn somewhere or we open the door to absurd lifts that game the system as potentially valid.
Sumo and split log sure, but they aren't going to be able set up rules for how much arch is too much or too wide a grip.
Exactly right!! They are not the same lift. F***s me why everyone bangs on about it. Jamals loft is heavyyyyyy. Dudes a beast. But it’s not comparable to Thor’s because it’s a different lift.
@@Lordoftheswollenyou cant ask for the elbows to bend at least 90 degree or go below the lifter so you actually can fuck those crazy arch and super wide gripers
And do you think that Jamal's 1050 lb deadlift is ABSURD? isn't it a great feat of strength? would Thor be able to sumo deadlift 476 kg?
@@guillermogilthemessenger you're missing my point. I don't think any of those things. Jamal's deadlift is very impressive. My point is once you go down a road of comparing 2 very different lifts it leads to ridiculous and absurd comparisons. Jamal's lift is very impressive but what if a guy with a more extreme sumo style pulls 550kg and locks it out with a tiny range of motion? Is that now valid as the WR and better than Thor's pull? Keep the 2 styles separate imo they're not the same and don't even test the same strengths and leverages.
In the gym I train and work at "sumo is cheating" has become a running gag. But it isn't used to mock sumo lifters but instead the people actually thinking that it is cheating.
@Omne Obstat That'd be really hard to do since there's so many outliers and variation, for instance look at Brian Shaw, his stance is easily wide enough for it to be considered a sumo deadlift, but because its against strongman rules to pull sumo he widens his grip width to make it technically conventional. What about the "frog stance" pullers that are effectively at the border of the two categories? Also, how do you think this split would actually be implemented? Would you expect lifters to do a max sumo deadlift right after a max conventional deadlift? Or would you want them to split every single weightclass into a sumo and a conventional category?
As it should be
In a way cheating def
There are obvious advantages to sumo, if that wasn't true then no one would do it. And personally, I have seen big dudes sumo deadlift 300kg, and it is respectable and no doubt that they can deadlift more than me conventional. But, I also see hundreds of your typical instagram influencer fitness guru who only perform sumo deadlifts because the sumo removes a lot of pressure from your lower back and puts it on your legs instead.
In my entirely own opinion, I believe sumo deadlifts are for people who generally have weaker backs than those who pull conventional, and they find sumo easier because they have a strong lower body. That's also something i've noticed with these people who sumo a lot, I may not dead lift the same amount, but I def have a bigger and stronger back than them, while their quads are bigger than mine.
Sumo definitely isnt cheating. If you lift heavy you lift heavy regardless of method. Atlas stones are a perfect example. Some lift them sumo style to get their arms underneath. Others reach over the top and drag it up onto their thighs and belly.
"This is absolutely true." lmaoooo
At my gym, whilst arguing with gym staff that deadlifting with straps on a platform does not "break the bar", a guy came up and said "you shouldn't deadlift like that (sumo) because I've never seen anyone lift like that". This was for 250kg (550lbs). Fucking woop de doop buddy! Guess every WR holder should go home because you haven't seen it!! Btw the gym staff were reasonable and let me continue after an explanation :)
unbelievable the thought process of those people. when you don't know shit about lifting and then tell guys how it's done ??😂
Lol he’s right. No one should have to watch a sumo pull
Pupper Faust 😂
i'd tell them that if i broke the bar while lifting myself, i'd replace it
Most gym staff think because they work in a gym and have qualifications on paper , that they know everything right and wrong. It’s funny
You realise the point made at 1:40 is that thor's hands are gripping the outside of his legs which causes the bar to bend less before the complete load leaves the floor. So not only does Jamal have a ROM advantage from a wider stance but the bar also bends more from his hands being close to the middle to the bar. There is also the factor of less torsion required due to moment arms from pulling sumo. Overall sumo is mechanically easier especially for lifters who are lighter and have the biomechanics to perform it effectively. Take the example of the most efficient sumo lifter and conventional puller sub 110kg, the sumo lifter will lift more every time. Disregard people in the middle of the bell curve who find "conventional" easier, you're not competing at the highest level which is where these comparisons are being drawn.
I've practiced mech eng for 4 years professionally and broken an IPF world record in the deadlift at worlds. Sumo will never be respected for pure strength in the same way conventional will because it is easier at the highest level of the sport. Also, I am not disparaging sumo lifters or making fun of them but people are naturally inclined to because of what's explained above, they just haven't been able to put it into words.
I switched from conventional to sumo due to a back injury and when I started pulling sumo I was weaker than I was in the conventional pull, it's a different lift, even a change of grip can mess with your lift, nevermind a sumo v conventional deadlift.
Do you think you r weaker because you have a back injury? I mean you could not even pull conventional at that time so....
Purely based on the fact of aesthetics I pull conventional lol
At least your honest 😂
@n00bie who asked
Conventional is more practical and natural lift. No one in history is picking up things during splits. Also you cant walk with it.
Good Reason have you ever had an actual job where you pick stuff? None of it ever has convenient bar width handles. Tbh, SLDL or Zercher DL probably have the most carry over to “real life” lifting, but that’s a stupid excuse to justify a lift for competitive purposes.
Good Reason What? Have you ever had to lift odd objects off the ground?
-Sumo haters PR deadlift:
Convetional: 200 lbs
Sumo: less than Convetional
-Still sumo haters:
Sumo is cheating 😢😢
XD
Its not cheating its just a different lift so imo it shouldn’t be classified as the same
@@RemmiRocks1234 its very similar when u look at muscle activation and mechanics. very subtle difference
Sumo is bullshit highly prefered by midget lifters that have already 0 range of motion and even try to lower that 0range of motion with sumo deadlift. I would not have problem with sumo if it was classified as different lift. Speaking of my own experience when i was at competition and after me there came 164 cm guy that made super wide sume standing his feet next to the plates he then lifted the 230kgs like 15 cm and that was his full.rep and it was counted as ok lift. That is just hilarious.
@@MatikuOfficial I completely agree with you, I think it should be classified as a different lift
Deadlift is my favorite lift, and probably will always be. I switched to Sumo and found that I couldn’t even pull 75% of my max. I began working on opening up my hips, and now I can say I am so much more comfortable pulling sumo than conventional. Also, it has shot up my squat as well, because I am much more mobile. I still pull conventional everyone other deadlift session. I only test my max on sumo, since I feel I can create much more tension at the bottom given my anatomy.
So it is easier
@@jakk221 try it and let me know
@@jakk221 because his body is well suited for sumo. it doesnt mean its easier for everyone, sometimes its harder for people to do sumo then conventional.
@@jakk221 It's more functional. But keep coping with your piss piddly 300lb conventional while you try to pull real men underneath you. Lol.
This is why I pull sumo, as a power lifter it helps my squat because of how much more my posterior chain is activated sumo.
If you're hating on sumo you best be pulling snatch grip, conventional is just cheating ;)
mez peach oh shit this is a good one
Genius analogy
I tried to pull snatch grip and I just pulled my QL instead. Also everything is snatch grip when your wingspan is 4inches less than your height. I am half penguin.
Julia Williams just rubbing in the fact that you can snatch grip my max for reps?
I prefer sumo snatch grip.
Obviously mad respect for strong deadlifts, sumo or conventional. But you cannot deny that sumo stance DOES actually decrease the range of motion and thus making it (slightly) easier to complete the lift until full lockout.
The stance also allows you to sit down with almost vertical back which essentially makes the lock out even easier
That's not how 1RMs work.
The difference in energy required to do a 1RM with slightly lower ROM is negligible.
It's all about force production.
Sumo pullers are often able to get into a more advantageous starting position, which is why they pull more.
This the same reason why arched bench pressers tend to press more - the positioning of their arms when the bar touches their chest is usually a stronger position.
I just wanna add some precisions about what you said (I'm not a hater, but I'd just want to add some elements) :
-Cailer did the 900lbs convy cause he did his training cycle conventional (you mentionned that in your videos)
-You can mention that Russek Orhii has 325kg convy, and when he tested sumo he "only" pulled 300kg, so when you switch to sumo it's not an explosive gain of strength...
-You mentionned in you previous video that Jamal started convy, he pulled 327,5kg in 2016, and in 2017 when he switched to sumo he pulled 352,5kg. It's not a huge difference when you know there is months of training.
-And finally I totally agree for your argument with superheavyweights, and you could have mentionned the WR sumo and convy : in 140+ kg class it's about 420kg sumo and it's 460kg conventional...
Cailer's whole training routine proves wrong the point of "being strong at sumo or conventional doesn't make you strong at the other". Cailer trains only conventional for months leading up to competition and then switches to sumo only a couple weeks out iirc. And then pulls sumo in competition. And he has been a world record holder for deadlift in his weight class multiple times. This proves direct carry-over between conventional and sumo.
Charlie Martin because they’re fundamentally the same lift, just variations. The muscle activation between the two is nearly identical, just some muscles are more taxed on one than the other.
The reason to pull sumo or conventional comes down to biometrics. Some people are built more for one or the other, but they’re still built for DL overall, so it’s not like they would be bad at either with a little bit of training.
@@deficitstifflegzercherdeadlift except no 200 pounder is ever touching 1000 pounds in the deadlift, unless they do a variation like a sumo deadlift or a block pull.
fuckn pathetic acting like a lift with a third of the range of motion is the same just because your favorite lifters are strong at it.
Jeremiah John i don’t think you realise for some people ROM is decreased significantly, while for others really minimally. No need to be upset about it, I’m sure you’ll reach some decent number some day. But until then don’t be salty because people can pull more than you :)
@@nejcrebolj2013 believe me I more than realize that, it's other people that don't realize the end point of that series of logic, which is just because it doesn't automatically help everyone doesn't mean it's fair game, it's actually very simple if you have a functioning brain, for example just because a lifting suit doesn't make everyone stronger doesn't mean everyone can just wear one at a raw competition, or just because sumo doesn't help everyone a lot doesn't mean you can use it at a deadlift competition.
very simple for people with critical thinking skills.
btw my deadlift is much better than yours.
I switched to sumo a few years back due to repeated back injuries. First thing that happened was that I lost 50 lbs off my 1RM. After a few years I’ve gained back that lost ground and added another 50 to the max. Thing is, every so often I try a heavy conventional pull just to see how it feels. I can pretty much replicate my new sumo max with conventional. It did not go the other way.
It probably goes both ways now because you’ve practiced both to a point your proficient in them. If you started Sumo and then went Conventional you would have the same problem.
Thats the reason I switched to sumo, I found it was alot easier on the lower back.
Gee could it be that you lost 50 lbs from repeated back injuries and it has nothing to do with pulling sumo?
@@oscartweedale4707 Have you tried pulling conventional from blocks? I find my lower back is okay as long as I pull from 3 inches off the ground
Nick Corona or maybe it could be that he doesn’t have a biometrical advantage to pull sumo. I know, I know... “anthropometry” is just a five dollar word in online strength circles.
Sumo or conventional or how ever you want to lift it, doesn't matter. It matters that someone is that strong to deadlift over a thousand pounds so I don't know why people hate on sumo
Same haha .
well the point is that they are not the same lift idiot. Sumo isn't a deadlift.
We have to be honest. Sumo deadlift and conventional should be never compare . This is the different styles of pulling. We have record in conventional and sumo. I would personally prefer to separate natural athletes from steroids
But then you shouldnt compare highbar and lowbar squats since they are different styles?
What about the way different powerlifters grip the bar when benchpressing?
A conventional deadlift is a hip hinge while a sumo - or squatlift - is a knee hinge. There is a world of difference in the two movements, as opposed to a couple of inches difference in bar or hand position.
Kev WKY if you think sumo isn’t a hip hinge I don’t think you’ve ever done it
@@regulatorsmountup4931 No I actually do them correctly, which means the hips do not go back; you want to push the hips closer to the bar, which is not a hip hinge. Here is some reading for you so you can actually understand how to do them correctly. www.elitefts.com/education/the-sumo-deadlift-youre-doing-it-the-wrong-way/
While I have nothing against sumo lifters, I think it would be silly to not at least acknowledge that it confers some advantage in the lift. Similar to extreme arching in the bench press, it can shorten the ROM considerably, especially given some people’s natural proportions. I have never known a serious lifter whose sumo pulls are not at least marginally higher than their conventional pulls
I think sumo is fine but when the lifters stance is so wide that their toes are almost touching the plates thats when it gets excessive. Same thing with the back arches and super wide grips on bench, I feel like it defeats the whole point of the sport; its a strength competition not a f**king yoga contest.
That last sentence had me rolling for some reason lmao!
i think it's the real point of the dispute! In my opinion most of the hate is caused by those lifter you mentioned. What can't be argued is that conventional is more consistent and easier to be judged in a objective way
agree, ROM is needed to be impressive, who cares about 3 inches right ? Lol
It’s a competition of who can lift the most weight. Helps being strong, but it’s not the be all and end all.
The only rational argument I've seen so far. Bravo.
Absolutely agree with it
The only "problem" I may see with the sumo stance deadlifts is that as all sports are improving, there may come a time, as an example, when 600 kg's is plausable for a deadlift, but the catch is while an inch won't make that difference, sumo + maximum bent bar may give you such an edge that all you may have to do is "lift" entirety of the weight for and inch or two, while conventional guys may have to triple or quadruple we travel distance needed in order to lift the bar. Either bars will change, or the rules
If lifters ever approach 600kg they will likely have to use stiffer bars anyways.
Sumo deadlift shouldn't be allowed in any competition
Just try it for a few weeks lol. Calm down.
I switched to sumo because conventional was destroying my back (flat footed and tendons in my hips felt like crap). I train deadlifts 2-3 times a week and sumo feels so much more natural and comfortable to me. Recently pulled a 495lb sumo. I was curious to see if the strength had translated to my conventional (that I hadn't tried in months) and to my surprise I was able to do 455lb. There is a difference but strength is strength
Bottom line, the sumo deadlift and conventional deadlift are different lifts and should be put in seperate catorgories. It's like saying bench press and incline bench press should count in the same category, even though they both work the same muscles to a very similar degree, I don't think anybody would argue that's it's still two very different lifts
Agreed, sumo isn’t a hinge movement which was the entire point of having 2 lower body tests of strength in powerlifting. It’s basically a quarter squat, especially when people do super wide sumo.
Thank you for shouting me out man 🙌🏾. I'm glad your addressing this people hate on sumo to much,and they always find a way to discredit those who use the technique.
Great lift dude! And is it just me or do you look super young? Got good gainz ahead of you 👍🏻
@@weshallneversurrender thanks man I'm 16
I exclusively use sumo, i also recognize that the movements are different, nothing to discredit, sumo turns the movement closer to a half squat, with upright back and above parallel legs. Same way you compare a flat back bench and a very very arched bench, or a one armed deadlift vs a two armed deadlift, nothing is to be discredited, everything is what it is.
Yes King! You have a great future ahead of you in the sport should you decide to continue competing. But I'm sure God will bless you with whatever you do in life, and you have a bright future regardless of your path!
Subscribed!
actually no, we are giving all sorts of credit to the technique!! Sumo is technique>strength. It's not hate, it's facts and you just validated it.
Sumo should be a separate lift. It is still impressive, but it ain’t the same lift.
Same for benches and squatters who use an extremely wide grip/stance? Since it does basically the same thing (limits ROM).
Same with extreme back arches when they bench press
@@peopleequalshit414 but it also mitigates their power output. Their kinetic chain isnt close and working together in a tight, optimally stretched position. Having your base/support spread out in theory allows for better stabilization, in people, its the opposite. Obviously theres a limit, as going too narrow can cause balance issues as well. But i find that with sumo, i have a WAAAYYYY harder time initiating the lift than with conventional.
@@peopleequalshit414 plus, the difference in ROM is so minimal for most sumo vs conventional deadlifts that making it a different lift entirely isnt practical. I say leave it to the organization.
Sounds like you're salty
Stance width relative to the bar is not “objective” between someone who is a 6’9” monster and Jamal lmao what a joke. If you want something objective then use the stance width relative to their hips, not the bar because you can’t possible determine the change in range of motion by percent of the bar covered by their stance. It’s relative to their own hips and where their legs would be straight that affect range of motion...straight down from hips would be max ROM and the further out from that point would be less and less the further out they go RELATIVE TO THE PERSON’S HIPS
Completely true. This channel has shit content that always seems to pander to certain opinions, biased to the extreme. I wish people would understand physics, leverages and bio-mechanics before trying to compare lifts based on some arbitrary biased opinions or personal experience.
Feels like he wanted to come across as somewhat "scientific" but said something completly wrong :D
the whole video is a joke, very few good points made, it was mostly bs like that and just highlighting the dumbest comments he could find.
@@Thomas-cu5mw he doesn't actually know anything about the mechanics of lifting since he was able to fuck up that badly, no wonder he thinks they're the same lift.
Yeah i agree. Thor's stance width is about the same as his shoulder's while that of Jamie is 2x his shoulder's. And yet this person here still thinks those 2 lifts are in the same category.
Thing is, it doesn't matter if you think sumo is easier than conventional or not. In powerlifting, it's allowed for any competitor to use it. If it's advantageous and more comfortable for you to pull sumo at a powerlifting meet, you should do it. In the long jump, you don't get penalized for jumping differently than the next athlete, for example. You should do the way that is going to give you the most distance (or in this case, weight).
Your comparing apples to oranges buddy, your logic does not apply
@@doelifts7146 bruh.. the dude is using an analogy. but, you are "dunce" so you'd never see the bigger picture.
That's because sumo hasn't been nerfed yet. In 50 years they won't allow sumo because the science will catch up
@@doelifts7146 he should have used high jump where there are (or were) a few different techniques used back in the day
Been here since pretty early, really has helped me get into powerlifting more and understand it. You deff deserve more subs
You may argue whether it is harder or easier.
It is a different lift with different body mechanics. Nobody thinks of sumo when some say deadlift. Counting it in powerlifting as deadlift makes no sense to me either.
Why not just make a sumo deadlift record?
Exactly this. Sumo Deadlift is no less of a lift than Conventional, it's just different. Actually I prefer Sumo as it is a more natural way to pick something off the ground. Would you ever lift something heavy off the ground with a narrow stance? No it's retarded. So if they replaced Conventional with Sumo I would have no problem. Only problem is I imagine the correlation between Sumo and Squat is higher than Conv and Squat, so it may make powerlifting more boring.
nobody compares jeffersons, behind the back, block pulls or any variation other than sumo, and no other lifting school thinks they're the same aside from powerlifters.
@@dans1454 "No its retarded" so when you pick something off the group you spread your feet out 2 feet and squat down to pick it up. Yea sure you do buddy.
@@drunkmarshmelo sumo doesnt require you spread them that wide. Sumo is literally just legs outside arms. My legs are like, maybe 5 inches further apart for my sumo than they are for conventional😂 and yeah, youd pick something up with your knees right outside your arms, you dont pick shit up with your legs in the way🤷 try conventional deadlifting an atlas stone off the ground😂
@@philosophyandhappiness2001 have you seen strong man? They definitely dont sumo deadlift them up. Why wouldnt you be able to conventionally deadlift it up? Im able to conventially desdlift the bar, why not the stone?
1. Thor is a much wider guy so saying Jamal’s stance isn’t that much wider is pretty irrelevant considering his shoulders aren’t nearly as broad.
2. Sumu doesn’t require any more mobility, if anything conventional requires more since you need to bend over further while making sure your ass is in the right position.
3. Sumu is less of a deadlift than trap bar “deadlifts” (look at the squat hinge continuum). If powerlifting allows pulling sumu they should allow pulling trap bars.
4. Vast majority of sumu pullers are just ego lifters. The main point of a deadlift is to strengthen the back, the sumu deadlift isn’t even close to conventional when it comes to working the lower back muscles. So people who pull sumu don’t actually care about strengthening the back, they just want to move a lot of weight.
About the last point, people that pull sumo are usually powerlifters and not bodybuilders, so they are just using the technique which allows them to lift more weight
Im my case, i tried sumo... but i wanted to get wide, so i switch to conventional, i got wider, and yes i feel im stronger. I feel better to do conventional, for me it works better.
I'm the only person I know that is stocky and sucks at sumo lol! I think I'm from another planet 🤔 lol!
The rom argument did acknowledge that your arms being inside your knees, not just the stance itself, has everything to do with the range of motion reduction. Nobody would say jerry prichet is pulling sumo but his stance is probably just as wide as jamal’s
Good video man and congrats on getting 10,000 subs
Deadlifting 1050 lbs sumo is insanely impressive, just not as impressive as if it was convential tho. Its simple, shorter range of motion, less stress on the back, biomechanically it's a slightly easier lift. But when your doing over 1000 lbs it doesnt really matter
Bullshit ... i lift 60kg conventional and if i switched to sumo it would be 560kg. Science.
Bro I pull 315 but if i switched to sumo It would 950 EZ
I pull 500 conventional.....if i switched to sumo it would be 10000 kg EZ!!!!111!1!
I pull 1,000 conventional.... if I switched to sumo it would be 100,000
I prefer conventional purely because of my goals, I do bodybuilding and the bigger range of conventional is way better for development because of the extra time under tension it allows.
@Irunwitha hatchet do you understand what time under tension is you ding dong?
Yeah I think for bodybuilders Sumo doesn't have much application. Conventional is much better for back development, Squats are better for legs. Therefore Sumo doesn't really 'win' in any area, other than adductors/abductors but who cares about them?
If you're doing bodybuilding, then deadlifting at all is a waste of time. You should do romanian, stiff leg, or good mornings instead if you want to target your posterior chain as you can do much more reps and recover far better.
Love the featured content at the end, and as always perfect content overall!
“Not short, just efficiently built”
I've seen all the arguments for sumo. I still dislike it very much. Having said that, sumo is not better for the bigger lifters.
Jamal is still very impressive though.
I’m just that guy that makes fun of any of my friends who do sumo but at the same time, if someone deadlifts more than me, who am I to criticize their technique
Makes no sense. You think top athletes' training coaches can perform better than the athletes themselves? According to your logic those coaches should be fired.
Look at the guy doing sumo, than look at thor, that's how it is easier.
A 900lb sumo pull is equal to a 135lb conventional. Science.
I think the leg width also has to do with how wide Hafthor is, i.e., his arms are farther apart as well and he still wants his knees and elbows close. Would be interesting to see the foot width measurement on a few more top athletes to compare %s. Also a 30% difference sounds pretty significant to me...
Obviously ROM is different for different people. Still a fact that FOR ANY GIVEN PERSON, sumo has a shorter ROM than conventional. Real point is, it ain't allowed in Strongman, and if I'm not mistaken, straps ain't allowed in most powerlifting orgs, leaving that lift on the island of impressive non records. Nothing wrong with sumo, but it's a different lift. Acknowledging that isn't 'sumo hate'.
Strongman also permits hitching, although to his credit Thor didn't hitch.
FAAACTS
“Acknowledging that isn’t sumo hate” too bad the video is responding to a pattern of lunatic comments u see on every video of Jamal so ur whole attempt at framing criticism of sumo as legit is dumb af and was a waste of time.
Yikes reading ur comment again it’s really bad.
Ur points aren’t even coherent and just strawmans that we’re never brought up. Were did the creator say jamals lift was a record. His first video did not say it was he used that lift to speculate that in the future Jamal is a contender to break the record. Why r you talking about strap regulations everyone knows about straps? Jamal has record lifts with no straps in competition u dumb cnt. How many dishonest garbage points can u come up with, u a record holder of straw mans. Video points out that sumo is not in strong man WE ALL KNOW, but for the deadlift world record u can sumo. Why r u bringing it up?
Edit yikes u even meme yourself “sumo is a different lift” LMAO 😂 that point gets dragged in this video.
@@sunflower-qn3wu "he has a realistic chance of breaking the all time deadlift world record, which is set by Hafthor", you deaf, illiterate moron.
clearly if sumo wasn't easier, so many people wouldnt use it.
Nice video man, I just subscribed. Can't wait to see more 💪💪💪
A big conventional pull seems to take a lot longer to recover from than a sumo with some of the top guys.
Sheiko actually spoke on this I think on Omar Isuf's channel years ago. He said that he gets almost all his athletes to train sumo because there is generally a better tolerance for volume and his programs tend to be high volume. Great observation
Its cause your pulling the bar a much longer distance....
Joe Bot It’s because there’s more lower and upper back.
There levers are shorter in sumo so you are moving the weight and your joints over a shorter distance or smaller range of motion.
This video stated that as 'hate' but it's a kinesiological fact.
@@unky5724 yep. Lower back generally doesn't recover very quickly. Certain muscles just can't do that. Upper back can be taxed with more frequency, just as the quads and glutes, relative to the lower back. However, when my sumo deadlift frequency is higher than once a week, my hips can't handle it. It is very demanding, ergo I can train conventional much more. It all comes down to programming and personal differences, I guess.
"won't influence the distance until lockout that much"
Actually it does. And it's been tested for multiple kinds of sumo stances. They all are drastically lower. and a much easier pull.
A sumo deadlift will never be as impressive as conventional.
When I started sumo it was weaker than my conventional tho, and where it has been tested the only comparison you see is by the haters that pull 100kg conventional and think they are strong and geniuses in the comments
why would you say something so blatantly wrong and stupid?
@@Adiadi-uj3ud well what if you only started sumo deadlifting? You would probably be stronger in it in just a few months
@@jacobpoulsen929 well duh I get stronger in a few months overall lmao do you think my conventional isn't getting better? I have them the same now, in 2 years
@@samuelwilson818 Nothing I said was wrong lmao, that is why somebody who is leagues weaker than a person like thor can pull a 1000lb deadlift in sumo. It's far easier.
you obviously know nothing about body mechanics nor the muscles involved in a sumo vs a conventional or else you wouldn't even open your mouth lmao
the hand distance also effects difficulty of the lift the bar bends more the narrower you grab the bar. On sumo you can place your hands inside your legs and the bar will leave the floor at a later stage in the lift due to the bar bend. So hand placement and foot placement both effect the lift. Also on sumo the shoulder rotate around the bar less because you can lock out the weight without pulling the shoulders behind the bar. Less rotation of the bar causes the lift to be easier especially when lifting straps are not allowed. This is why it is much easier to hook grip sumo rather than conventional. Shoulder rotation around the bar is also effected by the build of the lifter. A longer torso causes the upper body to rotate further and larger legs also cause the bar to be further away from the shoulders horizontally at the top of the lift. On sumo you can balance the bar at lockout much easier with less bar rotation conventional requires more of the upper body behind the bar to balance the weight at lockout. So alot of things that make sumo easier have to do with handplacement, lockout, and bar/shoulder rotation rather than foot placement.
The issue is never the foot width. The ROM discrepancy with the sumo deadlift when people try to compare it to being just as hard as conventional is the grip difference. The narrow grip allows you to start further upright and the wide stance shortens the ROM. This combined makes it easier to achieve heavier lifts. Thor's wide stance but with the wide grip outside of his legs pulls his upper body almost completely forward while deadlifting. Sumo isn't a bad thing, it's just not the comparable to conventional when measuring strength.
I tried switching to sumo after years of conventional wasnt even able to get my conventional pr with sumo
Thors conventional stance necessites wide grip on the bar instead of having arms hang straight down, which increases ROM immensely. Sumo pullers can have vertical arms without problem. Also, sumo pullers tend to use deadlift bar which further decreases ROM significantly.
What??? In competition the bar is the same for both. Wtf
thor pulled on a deadlift bar lol
Yep you sure cannot argue that Thor had to pull that weight almost double the distance as Jamal, but who's counting distance? Not the sumo lovers lmao...
@@joebot9309 thors 6'9 u dumbass of course hes gonna pull more distance.
@@johnh6928 I think the dude is referring to relative distance. A person doing sumos doesnt have to go as far to lock out in comparison to conventional. However, heavy sumo deadlifts is still very impressive
Deciding to pull sumo or conventional is first and foremost based upon your built and leverages.
As far as ROM is concerned, sumo does not violate any required legal aspect of powerlifting. It is from floor to lockout.
For those who say that sumo pullers are weak, why not the conventional pullers come and break world records by pulling sumo in competition?
If sumo is not conventional then conventional is not sumo either.
Not allowing sumo in strongman events simply seems like bias.
I don't understand why this debate even exist...both versions completely satisfy the basic definition of deadlift....picking a weight from floor and lockout at standing position...will they even raise debates on conventional vs SLDL? or vs Snatch Deadlift? etc.
I do sumo because, as a power lifter, it works my glutes far more than conventional does and that helps my squats. I also train conventional, but my body type favors sumo much more. Even so, my conventional is within 50lbs of my sumo. These people have no clue what they are talking about. You can ego pull conventional with the worst form ever and get to lock out (and maybe wreck your back too), but you won't even get the bar off the ground on a heavy sumo lift if you don't have technique.
Yeah, they are blind and ignore the fact that the bigger/heavier lifters pull conventional easier, the same way how average/short lifters do with sumo. So if sumo is cheating for shorter guys, then so is conventional for tall guys, lol. But with all seriousness, some tall former work colleagues of mine, who worked out as well were so amazed how a human can pull more with sumo than conventional, since it was much harder for them.
The rationalizations are strong with this one.
May the force be with you
When I sumo deadlift I lose 3 inches off my ROM. . I also add about 25kg onto my 1RM. Its mechanicaly a more advantageous position to deadlift in. a shit ton easier in my experience. And I ha e a positive ape index
Everyone instinctively knows this. Sumo pullers just don't want to admit it because it makes them feel bad. It's pathetic that one can't admit to themselves that they're pulling in an advantageous position.
@@nickcorona3966 bro, competitors pull sumo exactly because it's an advantageous position for a lot of people,they are well aware.
Nobody is deluding themselves they are pulling against their strengths when going for a wr.
@@blackeesh463 the guy who made this video is.
@@nickcorona3966 exactly. Everyone in the strengrh community knows powerlifters shorten their ROM as much as possible and try to use whatever advantage they can. Its why I prefer strongman.
i did a training block of 12 weeks pulling sumo and I could not match my conventional lifts. i also lost about 3 or 4 inches in range of motion but conventional is a stronger stance for my body. it all depends on an individuals anatomy. some people are stronger with a sumo stance, others are stronger with a conventional stance.
I respect those that pull sumo. Strong is strong. However, if I every got the vote [I never will] I'd vote to add 'hands must grip the bar outside of the legs' to the comp rules.
It’s so weird that people think sumo is easier. I’m decisively weaker in sumo but training it made my conventional a lot more explosive off the floor
Same basically ....I need to start doing them again so I can get a better rip brother.
The thing about Jamal is that he’s super strong with conventional too.
Exactly. What people forget is that he's like half the weight of Thor and Eddie were. There's quite a few videos of Jamal lifting conventional which for his weight class, still one of the heavier lifts in history for the class
koysol Miah that’s what I don’t understand about people. They say he can only do a little on conventional but I’ve seen him rep over 600 lbs conventional easy. lol
His conventional deadlift isn’t even close to his sumo. He’s mids 800s conventional and 1050 sumo that’s big difference
Nino Brown 800 conventional is still pretty good. Especially if he doesn’t train conventional a lot.
Shiloh Thompson 800 is a lot but think about it if there wasn’t a difference in conventional and sumo he would be pulling the same on both.
The only way to make everybody happy about sumo is diffrent total categories(sumo or conventional) and diffrent meets for them.
Agree but thats not gonna happen still, no ones there to make that. Also between powerlifters there isnt really hate at all. Its always the non lifters or egolifters who hate sumo
I think it’s easier to get a high number with sumo, but the human limit for conventional is much higher just because of how big you have to be to pull something over 500kg, and almost no one that size could do sumo.
Yea, no one ever got a 1102lbs/500kg deadlift in cheater-I mean..... sumo 😔
There are many reasons why I dislike the sumo deadlift being legal for powerlifting competitions. The first is that, to be truly good at it, you have to have the genetic hip flexibility to get into the proper position, which gives a massive advantage to people with those genetics. As a hypothetical, imagine that 20% of people had a genetic shoulder structure that allowed them to OHP more than they bench pressed. For the 80% without this structure, no matter how much they work at it, they will never OHP more than they bench. So in a competition, lets say one lifter bench presses 350, while another OHPs 375 - even though he can only bench press 325, he wins the competition. Is that fair? I mean, both are presses, right?
That is similar to how it is with sumo. People defend it by pointing out that most people are stronger conventional, glossing over the 20% or whatever number it is that have hips that will open up to the degree necessary to be a great sumo puller. No matter how much stretching you do, if you lack the genetic structure in the hips to open up that way, you will not be able to do the lift correctly. You will push the hips back or do some modified sumo lift, but not the true knee hinge that a Green or Belkin does. By contrast, barring someone with an injury or a 200 pound belly, the vast majority of people can get into the conventional stance and pull. If they can jump, they can pull conventionally.
Another reason I do not like it is that it upsets the balance that otherwise exists in powerlifting. Assuming that everyone has to deadlift conventional, the long arms that are an advantage on the pull becomes a disadvantage on the bench. But with sumo deadlifting, someone with short arms can now deadlift without the same need to pull the bar as far. Thus, powerlifting becomes biased towards one type of body style, and all other body types are starting off in a hole because of it.
There are a few more - the advantage of pulling a deadlift bar from the middle, reducing range of motion even more; the reduced time under tension, which means fewer dropped lifts from having the lift last 2-3 seconds less, and the fact that it is a different type of movement altogether. A conventional deadlift is a hip hinge, while a proper sumo deadlift is a knee hinge. www.elitefts.com/education/the-sumo-deadlift-youre-doing-it-the-wrong-way/.
This is not to say that the sumo deadlift is not a great lift; it is very useful, just as an OHP is to a bench press. But there is a reason that it is banned in strongman; they consider the conventional deadlift to be a truer test of strength and do not want to give someone with the right genetics a huge advantage. As the squat already exists in powerlifting to test quad strength, why allow another lift that primarily tests quad strength in the same competition? Strongman is on a totally different popularity level than powerlifting, and they have no need for sumo deadlifts in competition. If anything, a sumo deadift should be called a squatlift, as it is more of a squat with the bar in your hands than a deadlift.
There's nothing wrong with sumo, but they're different in execution & how they use certain parts of your body. I can definitely see why people generally get annoyed by sumo pullers that compete against conventional pullers.
But then we have the issue with limb length etc, so i understand your point.
no we don't have any issue with limb length, why does anyone mention that? nobody has ever said certain measurements don't count lmao, just different lifts don't count.
@@xXJeReMiAhXx99 no hes saying that limb length affects ROM more than foot/hand placing, which is true🤷
@@philosophyandhappiness2001 it's too stupid of an argument to take seriously, obviously people have different leverages and some are going to be better at powerlifting.
@@xXJeReMiAhXx99 which would mean that to say one lift is easier than the other or one should count and the other shouldnt is too stupid of an argument when theres a slew of variables that determine how hard a lift is. And they work nearly identical muscles. They work more similarly than a front squat and regular squat do. As ive said in other comment threads, the biggest difference in muscles worked is in the hips, which puts the sumo at a severe disadvantage.
If sumo and conventional are the same loft as your staying and sumo has no mechanical advantage, how come it consistently takes a 400+lb man to pull 450kg+ but Jamal (+whoever else) can pull a similar weight at a MUCH lesser body weight. I pull sumo myself about half the time I deadlift. So I’m not a sumo hater. But I’m also logical and I’m aware of its mechanical advantages.
because jamal has better leverages for deadlifting. it’s not always about body weight.
Exactly!
So why does Jamal’s conventional lag behind like 100lbs or so? Maybe more. I believe he’s pulled 900+ conventional at least. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong. Don’t know his exact conventional deadlift PR but I could have sworn it was still 900+
Sol its because his hips are stronger than his back
Conventional just seems to be more fair among the population. There are a decent number of sumo pullers who pull far more than they do conventional so for those people it is ridiculously easy. A conventional pull is always difficult.
Great content man! Keep it up! :D
I'm not a sumo hater at all and I enjoyed this.
I literally pull an extra 80 pounds conventional compared to sumo, so it’s stupid that people debate this when it’s simply preference.
See what Jamal can pull conventional
he has pulled 800×4 conventional
@@danieltangfoon1864 pretty damn good
If you told Eddie hall to pull sumo I doubt he can pull even close to his conventional max
@@ashaundrebennett9980 yeah Jamal just pulled 80lbs less conventional a couple weeks ago. It is an advantage, the bar doesn’t have to go as far for the lockout, it also uses more legs instead of back
Sumo vs conventional
I train both because I want both to be strong
I can never lift as much sumo as I can conventional
Sumo cut at least 50kgs off my deadlift
Some are build for sumo some are build for conventional
Use what you are given as long as its in the rules
What deadlift is best for muscle building? I do RDLs, should i add deficit DLs or snatch DLs?
@@MrAndersson579 do your 3 lifts squat, bench, deadlift and then work from there
@@geinstein8407 Currently taking a break from powerlifting. I do front squats instead of squats, and deficit deadlifts instead of semi sumo deadlifts
@@MrAndersson579 your still hitting the 3 just different types
You don't need to be a powerlifter to do them
@@geinstein8407 my point being im taking a break from the classic variants, thus seeking other alternatives
I am one of those lifters that pulls the same amount of weight regardless of whether or not I go sumo or conventional. My height is just over 5'9" and I have arm and leg lengths that do not favor one over the other, so I pull both ways just to show people that it is the same either way. The way I look at it is that if you are competing in a sport with rules, it really does not matter what the critics say because at the end of the day, they are not giving you your medals and they are not recording your numbers in the record books. You don't need to impress the critics. You do, however, need to impress the judges.
Honestly, past a certain point,(500 ish) I just give these people props, as someone with chronic back issues, I have mad respect for anyone who can pull 500+ either way
The central issue is that they're different lifts. They should have different records, you can't compare the two.
Should low-bar squats have different records from high bar squats? As well as Close grip bench vs wide grip?
I’ve tried both sumo and conventional stance. I think training both stances can be beneficial. Once I was stuck at a particular weight and I switch to sumo and trained sumo for 5 weeks. After the 5 week I changed back to conventional I went for a 370 lbs conventional to a 435 conventional. I am a beginner powerlifter so it may have been noobie gains. I’ll let you be the judge.
Sumo improves hip mobility Well done
Sumo is more leg and glute dominant. So it's likely that as you built up those muscle groups, they helped contribute to your conventional more than they did prior.
Still it's great progress, and don't ever 'discredit' yourself. Newbie gains when you did you literally switched for 5 weeks to improve lol
@Omne Obstat yes... And no. I can understand why you're saying that as the glutes have a longer moment arm in the sagittal plane. However the initial starting position of the sumo deadlifts means that the glutes are in fact more heavily recruited than in the conventional deadlift:
exrx.net/Kinesiology/Deadlift#Sumo
heavy slow hip thrust and high bar pause squat will increase your conventional more than sumo deadlift ever will, if that were your only goal. But Sumo is great for your hips. I do it for health reasons
Did conventional for months, now changed to sumo because i can brace better, and one thing i noticed is that it is really hard to pull sumo, and as i got used to the movement, became easier for me to pull sumo. Conclusion, do what make you more comfortable and practice it, simple.
They are very different pulls. I do them both. I pull pretty much the same weight on both stances...just my experience. Great video. Thanks for sharing!
@2:00 I don't agree with you. Jamal has his hands inside of those 50% while Thor has to have his hands outside of those 38%. I don't think sumo is cheating but stop try to make it like sumo isn't advantageous over conventional.
"sumo is advantageous over conventional" why dont i see 100% of powerlifters pulling sumo if thats the case.
Exactly what John said, if it was advantageous over conventional than all of the top Powerlifters would be doing it. People like you are what’s wrong with the sport
@@johnh6928 why don't you see any (or very very very few) pro level sumo lifters who can pull the same conventional? Cause they cannot pull the bar a further distance and they start much further down the leg. How f'n stupid are you?
@@joebot9309 They are pro sumo pullers because they are good at sumo lmfao. Just like a pro conventional puller cant pull as much with sumo as well. think for a second before u post my man
@Demon King "light". r/powerlifting did a survey and apparently less than half of powerlifters pull sumo, even on the elite level. if sumo is universally easier i'd expect most to pull sumo.
Just look at Reino Heinla’s latest instagram post on his 475kg sumo...
Good points! Subscribed.
Just lift, make gains, be healthy and have some fun at the gym. Don’t matter if it’s sumo or not.
Great content
I don't care classify them as conventional and sumo world records. Don't matter this is petty to try to put them together.
This is so true. Depending on form and how you’re built you could be wayyy more advantaged to a sumo movement pattern than a conventional one to the point where they aren’t the same movement anymore
Careful! i'm a retard That’s because most of the time it’s weak Pussy’s that pull sumo to catch up to the actual strong lifters that pull conventional.
Careful! i'm a retard because they are not the same. Get some experience with both and if your form is correct you’ll be able to tell Sumo is far more like a squat than conventional is.
Careful! i'm a retard I stand corrected mr 6 plates both stances with no proof. You dodged the argument that they’re not the same movement pattern and therefore should not be the same record.
And also, I never said anything about ROM. get your facts straight
Well, if sumo is so much easier, why are not every singel powerlifting doing it insted of conventional??
**EDIT**
Yes, I know that for some people, sumo is easier just like for some people conventional is easier. There is not one answer for everyone.
Please know your facts before you say that I'm wrong. For example, look at the men's 74kg class, 45% of the lifter chose to lift conventional because they are stronger that way, and don't get me started on women's powerlifting 72kg, 75% lift conventional. So I call BS on everyone saying that sumo is easier for everyone.
When there is no difference between sumo and conventional in difficulty, why are not all powerlifter lifting conventional to avoid the "sumo is cheating" debate? 😉
@@gautamgiri4991 what does strongman have to do with this dudes comment? He asked why dont POWRLIFTERS do sumo? idk why ur bringing strongman into it rn
There is a difference between the lift, and the lifter. A sumo deadlift has 'better' moment arms (eg levers- distance between the joints and bar; distance between one joint and another). However, if a lifter has long arms (and short legs), they may well find conventional suitable as they have a shorter range of motion.
Lifters with strong legs may find sumo easier regardless; lifters with strong backs may feel comfortable with deadlifts regardless of the kinesiology.
Yawdan Ye i think there is simply to many variables involved to simply say that one is easier than the other as broad statement.
But they are doing it, specially in lighter weight classes
Both of them are 2 completely different lifts. Sumo creates a shorter range of motion by artificially shortening the leg length and has a more vertical back angle. People are pulling like 3-4inches and calling it a deadlift.
Just like an extreme bench arch, sumo too is just to get an competitive edge. If you want to get stronger do conventional as your main lift, if you want to win a powerlifting meet do sumo as your main lift.
2 years later, and Jamal got it.
Sumo is a different lift. Just don't compare conventional records to sumo.
Sumo haters are some of the most toxic people in the fitness community, and I say this as a conventional puller.
But you agree that sumo pullers pull a shorter distance.
@@clarkwhitefield7964 that isn't a good correlation to bench because a sumo bench would be like saying it is easier to bench if your arms are shorter because you know the weight doesn't have to go very far
@@clarkwhitefield7964 yeah but i meant that in terms of the ROM a better one probs would of been saying that having a massive arch in your back for bench is like sumo because the bar doesn't have to go anywhere near as far as a flat bench which would be more like conventional
@@clarkwhitefield7964 because it depends on the lifter, just like how some people can't arch their back, some people can't get more power from a wider sumo stance
But if you look at the majority of professionals they lift sumo because they can pull a high number due to a shorter ROM
@@clarkwhitefield7964 this is talking about the majority which would mean the statement can be made
I don’t hate sumo. As a conventional puller, I think that some people are better at sumo and others at conventional. I understand that there is significantly less range of motion, but if you look up the definition of a deadlift sumo fits it.
Hi, congrats on 10k subs!
Where are you from?
If the sumo haters think its so easy the i look forward to all of them doing it and appearing on your channel setting world records.
Two totally different lifts. Each style should have their own record. End of argument.
@D.J. Lachmann ur wrong conventional was meant kinda for back work out cuz hits ur lower back more some other muscles. Now sumo other case hits more ur legs or something
Took a good hard look at my sumo and conventional and realized that due to my build, ROM difference is minimal. But difference in lower back pressure is HUGE and sumo feels way more comfortable.
I just want to know what is the max of strength in natural lifters
3:29 Pretty sure that's a joke about the exact point you're addressing...
Last I knew, a person checking their sumo PR versus their conventional PR generally has a higher sumo PR. If that's wrong then so be it, but otherwise that proves sumo is *relatively* easier than conventional.
From strengthlevel.com, standards for beginner, novice, intermediate, advanced, elite below.
200 lb bw conventional: 219 289 373 467 567
200 lb bw sumo: 242 318 408 509 616
Man A pulls 800 lbs conventional
Man B pulls 800 lbs sumo
Who would you bet your life on is stronger overall? I know who im betting on
So in strongman I see it that the wider stance is very often paired with straps because it allows you to use more of your legs (hamstrings) along with back strength and completely eliminating grip depending on the strap you use, I say that without straps the wider stance would not work as well a narrow conventional stance because it wont push on your grip. When I want to play around when maxing out I pull wide with straps I have tried sumo and it isn't as easy for me because I do not have the mobility for sumo
At 6ft9, it is normal to think that the stance is wider but reality, it goes with his shoulders. It would take a long bar for Thor to pull sumo lol
if 2 people got the same PR in DL, but one of them is sumo than for me more impressive is conventional lifter. AMEN
You didn't include their weight, height and built.
Andrzej Sobański true, if they’re 5’10 and up it’s impressive and not over 300 pounds that’s goals and true strength
@@andrzejsobanski6752 yea i had in my head 2 same person, same parameters - clones ;p
@@lifesabeach8846 If they were clones the weight they pulled would be different depending on their build ya dumbass. too much working out not enough brain activity there buddy.
@FullSend oof you're dumber than the person i replied to. jesus what is going on in this day and age.
Sumo is what we call "not a deadlift"
What is it than
@@alphamammonth8024 good question
THIS CHANNEL IS ONLY AT 10K? How sad, should be way more.
Another thing about big guys not doing sumo is their higher bodyweight can act like a lever, making hundreds of pounds lift off the ground just by leaning their bodyweight back behind the bar before even pulling.
Some big guys DO have the mobility, but still pull conventional. They're not doing it out of some misguided thought that conventional is mostly superior, but because it is not advantageous for them.
I think sumo just accentuates specific builds while conventional is more equal among builds