SawStop MONOPOLY Coming Soon? Top Tool Brands Push Back!
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
- Harbor Freight and other tool brands including DeWALT are pushing back against the Consumer Product Safety Commission on the issue of mandatory injury mitigation technology on table saws. This could significantly increase the costs of all table saws due to licensing, parts, extra labor, retooling, and more. Tool brands are worried that SawStop or other companies could be given a monopoly with this new proposed CPSC Rule.
These are my thoughts and opinions on the proposed CPSC rules and responses from public records. This is not legal advice or legal interpretation.
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Reference Documents and Videos:
Read all of the responses from tool companies I referenced here: www.regulations.gov/docket/CP...
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0:00 Table Saw Safety Technology
1:07 Who is the CPSC?
1:38 The Problem with Saw Patents
2:27 DeWALT's Response to Government
3:18 SawStop Patent Expiration Date
5:20 The Danger of the New Rule
6:18 DeWALT Throwing Shade at SawStop?
7:27 SawStop Refusing Licensing of Patent?
9:58 Bosch REAXX Table Saw Technology
11:00 Bosch Doesn't Think Safety Tech is Needed
12:23 Bosch Fears More Lawsuits
12:40 Table Saw Accident Data Flawed?
14:00 Customer Choice Stats
14:40 Harbor Freight Response to CPSC
15:05 Harbor Freight vs SawStop Patent
17:38 Harbor Freight Stop Selling Table Saws?
19:20 Monopoly on Safety?
19:40 Grizzly Tools Response to CPSC
20:24 Grizzly Patent on Safety?
22:22 Grizzly Tried to License SawStop Tech
24:04 Grizzly Email to SawStop about License
24:38 SawStop Response to Grizzly
25:16 National Assn. of Manufactures
25:50 High Cost of Safety Tech
26:44 Table Saw Injury Stats vs other Tools
28:15 Woodworking Training for Beginners
29:00 I'm a Fan of SawStop
29:21 Who will Companies License Tech From?
30:00 A Fascinating Mess
31:30 Fixable Safety Problem?
31:48 Budget Limits Safety
32:20 What Are Fingers Worth?
#woodworking #tools #powertools - Jak na to + styl
Click "Read more" to see all of the tool links.
Watch Next: The US Government is About to Change Table Saws FOREVER! czcams.com/video/kb6LRfGhr_g/video.html
Table Saws I Have Used and Recommend:
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Budget Option 2 - amzn.to/3vGDKUj
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Best Table Saw I've Used - amzn.to/3U8ZIJW
Push Block I Recommend for Safety - amzn.to/3OeCpug
Table Saw Push Stick - amzn.to/3OfQOXg
T-Shirt I'm Wearing - bit.ly/3useuBc
Reference Documents and Videos:
Read all of the responses from tool companies I referenced here: www.regulations.gov/docket/CPSC-2011-0074/comments?sortBy=postedDate&sortDirection=desc
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I am looking for a new or used saw stop but I am curious if there prices will go down or up in price also I was in a woodworking class last semester for me it was fun some did not like it but it helps to have a good shop teacher and the next few years when I am a senior I will be he’s ta which is basically his personal assistant keep updating us
I think most Americans are over our government interventions with so-called safety concerns. We have entirely too many 3 - and 4-letter government agencies trying to control every aspect of our lives. I've been using table saws, drills, impacts, and numerous mechanical tools for over 30 years. The worst injuries I've ever had were from my hammer causing fingers and my knee to be injured. I understand we have to have Osha and other agencies to make sure to protect the people on the work site and at home. One of my first jobs was a meat cutter. I almost cut my finger off. How would saw stop work with something that is used to cut flesh. It just seems like all these government agencies and politicians basically become the mafia. They can't even protect our children from men dressing up like women and going into the women's bathroom.
So why hasn't the Government tried to implement this AIMTechnology into the Miter Saw market?? It's just as easy to cut your fingers off with a miter saw as it is with a table saw... I think this is all made up for STUPID people... If you're stupid, and don't know how to keep your fingers away from a spinning blade, then you should be banned from buying ANY kind of saw...
Feb. 28, 2024 - Today, in response to proposed rulemaking regarding table saw
safety by the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), SawStop committed to dedicate U.S.
Patent 9,724,840 to the public upon the rule’s effective date.
@@yorselrus1996 For most amateur woodworkers, it is more about safety and less about politics. Become educated and then by a SS or not. The choice is yours.
You just nailed it. Put shop back in schools. Just like we should put firearm safety and firearm programs back in schools.
we should put shop, auto shop, welding , wood, back in schools and get ride of dance
@@mattg8787 How about getting rid of art and music, both equally less manly
In the data provided to the committee, I wonder if they break the data down by "cuts" vs "kickbacks". As I understand it, accidents from kickbacks happen far more often, which won't actually be stopped by this tech anyway.
They probably are but not the kind of "kickbacks" you are referring to, congress is full of insider trading so why not government agencies.
The CPSC report for 2007 and 2008 estimated an average of about 40k injuries per year for the two years covered. Of those, they say that injuries due to contact with the blade accounted for 88%. Somewhat mudding the waters is the fact that the report covers more than just table saws and I didn't see anywhere that they break down the stats just for table saws. Still, my guess is that kickback injuries are underrepresented here because they need medical treatment far less often than if you contact the blade. I belong to a large makerspace with two table saws that see heavy use, and kickbacks are shockingly common while blade contacts have been very, very rare.
They are definitely including kickbacks and anyother kind of injury they can find. If somebody was injured carrying a tablesaw, that would be included. Whatever they can to help raise numbers. They couldn't care less about us peasants. But they care a lot about kickbacks.
There needs to be better data to say how important this is. How many injuries are to the eyes or kickbacks? How many are a few stitches vs an amputation. If sawstop tech is implemented, how much of a reduction in ER visits will there be? You're probably going to need stitches on a lot of table saw cuts going 1/4" into the skin.
The CPSC is a criminal conspiracy, just like the Mafia. Even worse, actuality. It's not about :"safety" - it's about squeezing carefully chosen industries that are out of political favor with the woke left and putting the squeeze on them for kickbacks or to close them outright. It's all a grift that we, the taxpayers are the public are actually responsible for, because we have permitted our government to become an administrative state tyranny.
I was really wanting a sawstop for my next saw but with them pushing this to be mandated then not allowing other brands to license or develop their own shows how evil they truly are. They'll never get a dime from me.
You dodged a bullet, they are a badly designed saw. I mean that technically. It is the same old lets fix a Unisaw design that is almost 100 years old, with strap-ons. The rest of the world actually designed better saws. If SS gets adopted the chance of getting real design improvements, some of which have been around for about 50 years, will drop to zero.
It’s a natural first reaction but “evil” and “greedy” feel too strong to me. I can’t blame them for protecting the main thing that makes them unique in the market. Not every company is going to be like Volvo and the 3 point seatbelt (although I wish it were the case). Plus… didn’t Sawstop start as a company because the inventor went to these big brands years ago offering AIM and they turned him away? I’m sure there is more to the story, but again… hard to throw stones just at SS. (For the record: I own Rigid and Dewalt saws)
@slopes83 there's a difference between protecting their uniqueness and forcing the government to shove it down everyone's throat at the barrel of a bureaucratic gun
The sawstop guy offered the technology reasonably to all the manufacturers prior to 2009. When no one would license it, that forced him to make huge investments to produce his own products. So it only makes sense that now he has to protect it to recoup his investment and make a profit. I worked at one of the companies he presented it to. They all had the opportunity. He had no intention to make how own saw brand until no one would work with him. Some companies don't like to work with outside people like that and arrogantly think they can work around them. Well once company found out too late that it couldn't. They guy is not evil at all. It's the American dream. He tried to work with them and was brushed away. So then he had to fight for his dream.
Agreed.
I was seriously considering buying one, until I found out what they are up to & how they are trying to play the game. No, thank you.
Saving fingers is great. Trying to rig the marketplace instead of competing is just scuzzy.
My freshman year of high school (1989), there was a shop hallway. I went into an intro to shop. Every six weeks you would switch classes electricity, woods, metals, small engines, drafting. Then the following year you would pick a trade route to hone-in skills. I ended up taking metals learning lathes and mills. My children have now graduated high school and when i went back for their orientations, etc. the hallway was all foreign languages. I was so disappointed to see all trades pulled from high school. When you said something about teaching it in high school hit a nerve. One day we will have no trades people to call, not everyone in America needs a 4 year degree! I am proof of that, as i am sure a lot of your audience is. Sorry for the rant, keep up the great work teaching us all. Always looking forward to new episodes.
This was done all on purpose. Our education system isn't about educating, especially college. It's about indoctrination and becoming a good worker bee that supports the Hive!
Hello sir, I am here to hopefully renew some of your hope in humanity. I'm 18, work on a farm, and in my free time I work on my 1989 Ford Ranger XLT Extended Cab 2.9l 2wd automatic short bed! 😂 I also dabble in woodworking, I know how to weld and use a cutting torch. I like playing with electronics.
I just set up a system that will automatically fill a watering hole for wild life that runs off a 12v battery and a solar panel and a momentary switch that turns a pump on when the water gets low.
I wish I could have grow up in your generation but I won't complain. I'll just do my best to make my generation and future generations better! Have a great week!
There will be a time, very soon, in which trades are in high demand again.
The irony of these shop classes being deleted is, if you dug deep enough, you will likely find that industry (for profit vocational schools and others) likely petitioned the government to remove these types of classes so they could be provided, for profit, by the private sector.
@@increditecsubsidized by the govt. so we are paying for them to make trade school a pay to play like college now. It's all a plan. Nothing is being done by accident
Matt, I love that you're bringing attention to this now. What I'm concerned with if this goes through, is that the next generation will only have used the AIM saws. Then, if they get a hold of an older saw, they would treat it like an AIM saw, and end up with even worse injuries. I agree with you. More education available at earlier ages is a better answer. I did have shop classes, and learned very quickly that common sense is taught more than assumed. Thanks for the information. I will not be buying saw stop, for what they're trying to force. Any time a choice is removed, that's not good.
Totally agree .
This should only pass if we can then buy table saws with pre-tax HSA funds as it can be considered a health savings device.
Absolutely!
I work for a company that sells window coverings. The CPSC recently lost a case against our industry that would have eliminated chains and cords across the board. The time it takes to develop WINDOW COVERINGS is years. CPSC has lost its collective mind lately.
We are ruled by busybodies with no experience beyond law school and working in government.
Thank You for covering this issue so thoroughly. SawStop was my "Dream Saw" for a very long time until I learned they attempted to pull this very same crap in the past.
I have ZERO respect for a Company that employs the Government in order to secure a market.
At this point I would rather lose a finger than send my money to a company that is willing to pull this crap in order to, essentially, force me to buy their product. Yes, I am THAT ornery.
It is wrong for me to wish this...BUT...after seeing these attempts by SawStop it is my hope people STOP buying their products, that the company fails and the Patents all expire. Regardless, with or without the CPSC ruling in 10 years every single manufacturer will offer a higher end saw that implements these safety features and as long as the name "SawStop" is not on them...I will likely buy one.
Hell, Maybe Bosch, once the SawStop patents expire, will License their technology so we don't have to keep purchasing "Cartridges" when the Saw activates.
As Usual, Another Great Video. Thank You again!!
I rather give them my money than lose a finger.
AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!!
It's not Sawstop it's the lawyers. There's actually a lawyer in MA who advertises as the Tabel Saw Lawer.
BTW I've had mine for about 18 years.
Use proper safety precautions and you won’t lose a finger AND you’ll have money in your pocket
it's called an accident
@@margueritewhite3038
in Canada I took woodshop in high school, which helps me with my woodworking career and Hobby to learn from professionals how to do it correctly, so I agree with you that teaching people would lower the injuries
Crazy thought. How about we let the consumer choose what kind of saw they’d like to purchase. If they want the sawstop technology, they can buy one. If they don’t they can buy a different one. Last I checked this is still a free country, and if someone wants to buy a table saw and use it without having proper training or educating themselves first on how to use one, then that’s on them.
Like what we have now? I agree.
Except that those people end up in emergency rooms. Emergency room visits cost EVERYONE money because they raise the costs of health care and insurance. So, essentially, we ALL get to pay the price for people making poor choices of tools and poor decisions in using them.
@@chadajacobs absolutely
@@chadajacobs well if you watch the whole video Matt talks about other things that lead to way more emergency room visits than table saws. Why single out the table saw? Maybe the concern should be more focused on other things.
That could be said about a lot of things. People should have the right to make there on decisions about such things. I don't drink, but a lot of people do, but we all share in the cost that is associated with that life decision, health care cost, insurance and the cost of broken homes just to name a few.@@danielakerman8241
Also unlike riving knife and blade guard, the first RnD cost isnt the most expensive part of sawstop.
What i mean is, the research cost will eventually pay for it'self, but the material cost of this tech will remain high.
So unlike riving knifes, it wont get much cheaper over time. Riving knifes raised price by 30$, than 20$, ect untill we are down to the raw material cost and the tooling cost that does have to be retooled every so many units.
But in closing the riving knife is now dirt cheap to include and nobody thinks about it, but the sawstop or similar tech is going to be a large ongoing cost.
As a small hobbyist i dont have the money to replace the break everytime i hit a nail in pallet wood. If my break triggers I will likely just turn the whole system off to avoid that cost. I have spent about $3000 in the last 2 years, setting up my shop and that break replacment is as much as a whole tool in some cases. I still need a decent trim router, chissel set, good jig saw, better orbital sander, dust collecter, air filter, hand planes, ect 1 break replacement means i would not be able to use my small profits to buy the next tool to unlock the next project in the chain of progression.
If I ran a big company I would have to do something about an SS, the liability is crazy. And tired employees doing the 9-5 should be protected. But in a personal hobby shop, there is zero reason to ever cut your hand off if you are sober. I had a weird thought process at one point in my career. I had always been around TSs and never a problem, however, when I took up building guitars it changed me. It seemed insane to be building guitars and potentially risking my digits. So I vowed from that point on to never do anything on a table saw that presented that risk. Basically I never pass the blade, I flip pieces, or use other tools. I suppose the cross cut guide could get one in trouble, but I just haven't hurt myself yet, and I will often use hand saws, just to keep in practice, where it makes sense. Or shooting boards, track saws... But I would say there is never any reason for an SS in a hobby shop.
@@tacticalskiffs8134 Well based on your irrefutable logic, there must be virtually NO table saw blade contact injuries among hobby woodworkers, especially if we limit consideration to hobby woodworkers who are NOT drunk. Just one little problem. Just reading table saw reviews (SS and others) over the past 30+ years, including comments on youtube videos over the past 15 years, it's abundantly clear that there are LOTS of blade contact injuries happening. Including many with life-altering permanent injuries.
@@GeneralPublic0000"We're the govt and we're here to help"
I don't want to see anyone hurt by a tablesaw, however there is a certain amount of risk in everything we do. We all accept the risk involved in driving a car, people are looking at there phone's like the are sitting on their couch. It boils down to training, learn how to be defensive in everything you do. Same goes for a tablesaw, weighing the risk to reward factor and educate yourself the best you can. I am doing my part, you can find a tablesaw tutorial play list on my channel that is geared towards beginners. I think all DIY youtube channels should be creating some of this content and sharing the information. Keep up the great work Matt.
When you exercise proper safety protocols, the saw stop blade break is useless. This honestly is something that should not be forced on people an manufaturers and should be left as an option. I would honestly love to see some research done on how often the saw stop break is engaged and why?
Are they being engaged because of wet wood or cutting through? Are they being engaged because of people not using proper safety protocols?
Great point on on ladders and lawnmowers. This goes into effect this will decline the wood working industry. If I had to pay over 1000 bucks for a table saw I wouldn’t have gotten into wood working during pandemic. At the same time i can’t blame sawstop for not wanting to license there patent. But then again once the government gets involved everything goes to shit!
As many others have said in these comments I think what Sawstop is doing is clear and it is not in the interest of anyone's safety. Using a government mandate to try to supercharge your profits is underhanded and I'm glad there's push back on this.
This is the hill people want to die on? 🤣 Of all the other things the government makes mandatory this makes people mad.... Ok....
This type of thing happens all the time. We just don’t usually hear about it. This is all about money. I see it all the time in the industry I work in. It’s frustrating but I really don’t think there is anything we can do about it. This is what happened with car airbags, windshield wipers, and thousands of other technologies. None of this will ever be resolved until power, greed, and selfishness is eradicated from the human condition. we all know that isn’t going to happen.
@@Lee-lb9qh I'm more chastising Sawstop's behavior and their using of this against the other players in the market unfairly. Them saying they don't want to license their tech and suing people like bosch that try to make their own makes it clear they do not care about anyone's safety and just their own profits. I do believe the board trying to push it through might care about safety and I think they should force Sawstop to give out FRAND licenses to all competitors in the market if this is passed.
@@mwoody4560those car patents you mentioned, do they all belong to a car manufacturer? Have they denied licensing to other manufacturers in the past? Are they responsible for nearly 50% of the manufacturing costs of a car?
Because, that's the difference between this case and what you pointed out
SawStop is being a lil b*tch right now. Can't get enough money for their thousand dollars saws, so they're bending everybody else to their will, "in the name of safety" when it's obviously a money grab
@@Lee-lb9qh that’s an ignorant comment. This is the current hill of this discussion because it is the topic being discussed 😂. How stupid would it be to have a debate over taxes or the forced ouchies when we’re talking table saw mandates? 😂 nobody here has said this is all that matters and that nothing else can ever be fought or that this is the end all be all of the government fight. This is the relevant discussion for this topic. Your comment makes about as much sense as us talking about crypto and then you asking what that has to do with fishing.
The only reason CPSC wants this to happen is because they were bought, by whom I think it's obvious.
I do agree with putting wood shop back in school. I took wood shop in 7th and 8th grade, and I still remember the safety fundamentals I learned then. I believe that is a real solution to the problem.
There is a reason Saw Stop was unwilling to license their table saw safety tech to Grizzly and the others that asked to do so. That would require negotiating with each manufacturer. . If they managed to get the US government to make it mandatory then they would have a monopoly and would charge a lot more, despite the FRAND commitment IMHOP.
It should also be pointed out that when Nils Bohlin invented the 3 point safety belt while working for Volvo the company made it freely available to the world because "the invention was so significant, it had more value as a free life saving tool than something to profit from."
John Deere used ROPS for tractors the same way.,
That's what frustrates me about this whole thing. SawStop is putting their own greed over people's safety. It'd be like patenting the seatbelt and refusing to let anyone else have them for decades.
That's the American system and it's why patents are stupid. Patents are just government granted monopolies. Nowadays we all know Tesla was the GOAT and Edison was a dickhead with good lawyers. The Wright Brothers DID NOT invent the airplane. They were the first to FLY to the patent office and claim fame in our textbooks. Nobody has a right to use lawyers and police to stop anyone from using their own raw materials and factories to form them into a shape. That's retarded.
Bosch not being allowed to make a competing safety technology?!!!?? Retarded!
Patents are fucking stupid.
@@JamesTM You're just plain wrong brother. He offered licensing to all the manufacturers prior to 2009. They all turned him down. He was just a little guy to all those companies. Little did they know he was going to be David to their Goliath. He was forced to make a huge investment to design build, manufacture and sell his own saw line because none of them would work with him. Once he was forced to do that, he then had to protect his competitive advantage and his investment.
Thank you for making this point. I was about to make this very example as it is very relevant. Sawstop will never get any of my money because of the way they are acting. They don’t make a superior saw. Quite the opposite actually, they just have a great safety feature. Just like Volvo doesn’t make a superior sports car, SUV, truck etc. Volvo was interested in saving lives.
No one is even mentioning insurance. What happens when this becomes mandatory. Insurance companies can refuse to give you insurance or charge crazy rates if you even have a saw in your home or business. Businesses might have to retool their shops to comply with this regulation who makes money. Saw stop. Who asked for this to be implemented. Sawstop. Unbelievable.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out members of the commission have a financial interest in TTS.
Yep. There are many downstream consequences that will necessarily arise that will cost real people real money. But....the administrative state will have its way, and we will pay the price (as always).
its already happening. has been since SS first came out. insurance companies give a rate discount to companies that use it. a monopoly will cut out every other machine manufacturer.
I worked building custom cabinets for years... and only have had one accident where the wood got a little crooked and flew back at me, hitting my hand, making me need a few stitches... but it was my fault being stupid trying to cut a peace in a way I shouldn't have been doing... I respect all power tools knowing something could happen at any time... I'm betting 90 % of people getting hurt is because they are doing something they shouldn't be doing like I was or in too big of a hurry... just watch CZcams and a lot of videos. u will see people doing sketchy things with many tools...
Not to be contrary but can you think of any way to hurt yourself on any piece of equipment that wouldn’t be the result of misuse? It just seems that if you follow the operational guidelines you will not get injured. I’m just a hobbyist, maybe I’m missing something.
I wish bocsh system was widely available
Matt mentioned in the video that The Bosch would need a complete redesign. Bosch had some issues with Reaxx that came up since it was originally put on the market. Would cost Bosch a huge amount of money to redesign everything.
They'll develop it if it's in their financial interest to do so. Right now, having lost the patent battle, it's not so much the development cost that's probably weighing on them but the protracted legal battles. So it makes sense to just wait out the patent rather than spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in development and the guaranteed ensuing legal battle.
Thank you for keeping up with this story! It's frustrating that no other woodworking CZcams channel has said a word about this.
The other channels have a relationship with saw stop that they don’t want to damage. Video consumers take note
@@boboatner9021 good point, sir
Matt, thanks for staying up on all of this. I find it fascinating the way this topic is progressing. I agree that wood shop in school is one of the best preventatives to injuries. Accidents are unfortunate, but are usually caused from improper use or ignorance. I would encourage anyone using any tool to do some safety research before using it.
I have to agree with HF and Bosch's analysis. People will choose DIY unsafe practices rather than mostly safe saws. We see it ALL THE TIME with CZcams videos. Cost always plays a part. Plus, then the government creates a monopoly...unless they want to tear down the monopoly they created (very scary in my opinion).
Let me understand, you're less scared of a monopoly (which is supported by the government, this is always the case historically) than a monopoly being broken up by the government?
Harbor Freight worrying about consumer safety is the funniest thing I've seen in a while...
Radial arm saws will be making a comeback lol😂
Read the Sherman act from 1890 , it makes illegal to monopolize, conspire to monopolize, or attempt to monopolize a market for products or services.
Should be easy take down this SawStop promoting project .
@@nathanprose7011 Radial arm saws scared me to death! I'd much rather have a table saw without the SawStop technology than any radial arm saw. Besides, it sounds like from the wording within the video, the regulation would also apply to them as well.
originally saw stop tried to partition that all table saws should have this technology. When i bought my last table i thought about buying a saw stop but when i looked in the cost at one time to replace at $175 for the cartridge and when I have a $200 blade in the saw and blade gets ruined when it goes off and if I don’t have the $300 right away that I’m stuck, not having to use the saw and my nearest tool store that has the parts is an 2 to 3 hour drive away
I liked the Bosch system. That was a better system than Saw Stop
Agreed and Sawstops ridiculous broad patent destroyed Bosch.
Totally agree. I have the Reaxx. It’s great.
There is one key factor that Congress seems to be missing. You can make the safest table saw ever, but because of this key factor, people will still be injured. That factor is human error. Take a look at the auto industry. They make the cars plenty safe, but there are still plenty of accidents and deaths because they did not train the drivers better.
If cars were still made like they were in the 50s and 60s we'd still have accidents, but the death rate would be dramatically higher. It's the safety features that have been mandated in cars (starting with seat belts and the elimination of steel dashes) that have dramatically reduced how many people die per accident.
What I see as the biggest problem here is not with the effort to add safer equipment to table saws and reduce injuries by allowing technology to make it harder for people to be injured. It's that the technology is held by one company, thus creating an unfair balance in the market. While it is possible non-patent infringing technology can be developed it cannot be developed within the time frame required by this proposal. This forces companies into dealing with a direct competitor, who doesn't have any interest in playing nice.
In our sue happy current existence the companies cannot say what they should be saying is: We would gladly incorporate technology to reduce injuries as saws spinning at thousands of RPMs are quite dangerous, but the guy with that technology is an a-hole. Lawyers, I suspect, would love having a document with a company admitting they know their products can be dangerous.
Where i do agree with the monopoly argument, the point that I was making was this. No matter how safe you make something, if the person who operates it is untrained, then there will be accidents. Therefore, we need some type of training in place, no matter if it is for driving cars or operating a table saw.
Small (but important) point, this isn't congress. The CPSC is an executive branch agency that doesn't have the constitutional ability to create laws.
So who determines what the fair and reasonable value is? This is why a commission holds public hearing and asks for input. Based on what you presented it certainly doesn't sound feasible to implement this rule at this time.
I have a thumb with no feeling on the face of it from a table saw accident a few years back, the "meat" grew back but the nerves never recovered. While I would love to have a sawstop style saw to prevent future stupidity on my part, I so far have not made it a priority based on price (hard pill to swallow on limited budgets). I think the technology is awesome and wish more saws had it, but I also do not believe in making one company filthy rich by mandating other license it from them.
If a "safe" saw cost just slightly more to purchase and operate than an "unsafe" saw, most people would choose the former. But that's not the real world.
SawStop is not going to enter into any licensing agreement until they now the outcome of this rule and they will then license as high as possible. The owner of these patents is the main driver trying to push this rule through. They are looking for a monopoly, by forcing manufacturers to developed new AIMT causing competitors to price their saws out of the market or by forcing licenses which will have the same affect.
The dumb part is that SawStop, while helping to increase safety, isn't that great of an option. After all, you toast a blade and a brake cartridge! Basically, there are likely to be better option especially with how great electric motor breaks have become such that you likely don't even need an expendable cartridge to brake the saw anymore, but due to the wording of the existing patents, you can't even try to design around this!
@@scottbitz5222 You have no clue what you are talking about. No circular saw brakes anywhere close enough to prevent a serious injury. Even the Bosch Reaxx had to use a cartridge to drive the blade downward and away from the operator. If a table saw needed to use a motor brake to prevent injury, the motor would have to be enormous to stop in 10 milleseconds vs 1 second.
How did they get that Patent Renewed....What garbage. FYI, SAWSTOP doesn't give a DAMN about anyone's safety. The PATENT LAWYER was all about the money. REAXX was Brilliant and I almost bought a REAXX over Sawstop...but I knew Sawstop was going to hurt Bosch.
You are confused. A patent cannot get renewed like a copyright can.
Okay, look at it like this:
Say that I invent a simple, cheap, safe fusion reactor, right? And there's three technologies that are absolutely, positively fundamental to any conceivable such device.
I /could/ patent all three technological innovations right off the bat, and they'd all expire in 20 years time.
Or, I could patent one of them for 19 years and 364 days; then, patent the 2nd, wait 19 years and 364 days; and patent the 3rd, getting me another 20 years on top. I get 60 years, less two days, worth of monopoly.
Further, I could use so much jargon and legal language to obscure how my machine actually works, making it so I own a monopoly on any and all possible devices that achieve the same effect, even if it's through radically different approaches. (Like Saw Stop's patent that boils down to "A machine or system thereof that swiftly moves a circular saw in a short span of time into a safe position," that's not patenting a design so much an infinite recipe of possible solutions to a basic problem.)
And if someone figures out my plan and files the 2nd or 3rd patent, so what? I can prove prior use of the idea and invalidate their patent. I still get my 20 years on patent 1, and at the absolute worst outcome is I get to fully enjoy the 20 years of monopoly. There's no greater risk, no punishment for abusing the system, just lawfare and the sweet, profitable exploitation that makes every business want to be a monopoly.
It's also worth remembering, the US got a jump start in the technological revolution by blatantly stealing intellectual property from Europe. It's the same way China has leveraged stolen IP to develop so swiftly.
Owning ideas and creating artificial monopolies slows progress. It might build wealth for some (like, say, Disney, who raided folk tales, then lobbied to make copyright life of the author + 70 years), but it prevents the next creator from even trying given all the risks and expenses, and hurts consumers as monopolies have no real reason to compete on quality, service, or price.
.>
Yep, stinks of greed.
@@maximusmagni1what is the correct terminology for “continuing” a patent?
Speaking of work arounds: I remember the old kitchen table that my dad had (buried and unused) in the garage -- it had a motor, belt, and blade. He and his brother may have used it to build our house back in the early '50s. [Yes, they both had all of their fingers.]
Yeah, I was gonna say, if this comes to pass, I'mma buy a timber frame circular saw (10.25" blade) and just use it to make my own table saw. There's plenty of CZcams videos of people who have home-grown their own saws.
I remember seeing that sort of project in old wood working magazines when I was a kid. Iirc craftsman even sold kits that included the arbor and belt/pullys to do it until the 1960's.
I agree that schools need to put shop classes, it was called Vocational Education when I was in high school, back in their curriculum. Unfortunately I don't see this happening because SPORTS is more important than even proper education to the school systems.
That's because sports is a profit center, while shop class is an expense.
I had a shop class in Middle school. Keep your eyes on the blade when using a table saw and always use a pushstick.
You know what i think would do more to increase safety around table saws than anything else? Mandating a link to a saw safety basics video on the user manuals of the saws in a prominent place. The amount of people that don't use a push stick is absolutely insane when watching videos here on CZcams.
Well then somebody needs to tell Sauced up that if you do not allow licensing of your patented technology you'll be declared a monopoly on the market and will have to be taken apart has any other Monopoly before has been done and your patent will be voided and make it open source which means you make no more money on it
Matt, great piece I have seen alot of people on You Tube running table saws and not even using some type of push sticks his is exactly how people get hurt on table saws
People say that, but what I want to know is how many of these injuries are people who don't know what they are doing, or are high, or in poor health (a lot of newbies take up woodworking as a retirement project). I will be 65 this year, and while I am OK, at some point it will be like taking the keys from grampa, and one hopes I will not have a problem before that happens.
😂😂
@@coreythomas9178
Not sure why you would think this is funny
I’m 78 and have used a table saw for more than 30 years.
Have I been injured? Yes! I be had 2 minor cuts on the end of the same thumb. My fault? Absolutely! Lucky the cuts were not worse? Absolutely. I did not have the blade guard on.
You Tube has prevented more injuries than Saw Stop ever will. Education is a wonderful thing. Safety devices are great but knowledge is more powerful. The shame of getting cut is that everyone gets to see it. Of course some folks brag about their injuries.
I just sold my Unisaw and traded for Japanese saws. A wise thing to do at my age.
Interesting video.
I know a fellow who bought a riding mower with all the safety features. He backed over his daughter.
Did the CPSC include all accidents with table saws including kick back accidents? How did they break out accidents? Did they only include ones that would be addressed by this change? I would bet they were exaggerated on purpose to justify their intervention.
I'm almost 100% certain that tablesaw injuries are ALL injuries even if there's not a cut on the person!
The issue is which injuries would this rule prevent. It does absolutely nothing to prevent kickback injuries which I would guess are a much larger part of the equation than cuts. Counting ALL injuries as justification for your justification for intervention when there is no correlation is BS.@@scottbitz5222
Hey Matt! Years ago (when I was 18-20, now 52) I worked in the oilfield. It was a frequent occurrence for floor hands, especially to lose fingers or toes. This was due to pinch/crush accidents. Each digit was worth $1,000. That's what was paid out by the company.
..I have to ask: were thumbs worth extra, or did they pretend a thumb is equal to a ring finger or pinky?
@@dracodraco1982 all digits, fingers or toes, were $1,000
This, like so many things Federal / State safety agencies mandate, often try to fix careless behavior that often isn't fixable. I also have to wonder if this becomes a slippery slope. Will manufacturers be required to add this AIMT to their other products like bandsaws, routers, grinders... Well thanks again for a great video.
no just Styrofoam blades
"FARE" and "REASONABLE" are relative terms...this isn't solvable without forcing SawStop to give up their patents and that sets a precedence for ALL safety patents to be at risk in any industry.
Other safety features aren't being government mandated.
@@tangodown2721 Exactly correct. My statement is in regard to the notion that if the government attempts to govern THIS item, then that might "SET A PRECEDENCE" for them to do it again in the future. Not just in this arena (woodworking) but in others as well.
The commission should spend money on education and safety programs for these types of tools. Same goes for Driving automobiles and operating any power tool or firearm. Training and Safety practices MUST be communicated. Anyone without the proper knowledge to operate ANY tool can get injured.
I'm loving the channel and this series of videos in particular. I've commented previously on the first video about the patents; that I can't get the SawStop technology here in Scotland, and the only reason I could come up with was that SawStop 'didn't want to'. I think this is a great discussion to have. I'm all for SawStop protecting their property, but not when they will obtain a monopoly on the industry. What is really interesting to me is that SawStop are not even interested in licencing the technology which backs up my 'didn't want to' conclusion. However, could the government not enforce a form/variation of a Eminent Domain (I think its called in the USA, but known as Compulsory Purchase in the UK, granted I've only heard of it being used for land), effectively the government will forcefully take ownership of the patents and give or licence it fairly?! I don't even know if its possible, its just a thought.
Furthermore, an issue I think overlooked here is that this doesn’t simply effect the USA. You see across the world, the table saws available are the same or similar variations of the ones in the USA. Granted, the USA is by far a bigger market and most of the companies develop their products for that market. If manufacturers simply stop making products because they cannot justify the extra costs of the forced technology, I think the slim options available outside the USA will reduce further and only a few lower quality options will be available.
So I think that SawStop need to be fair with the technology otherwise be forced to make it free to all. This will open up the technology worldwide and create a more competitive market. Meaning we the consumers will pick our saws based solely on quality and cost.
Great comment!
Matt brought up the most obvious, reasonable path when he read from Stanley- Black & Decker's letter -- compulsory patent licensing of SawStop's (or any other completing similar) technology. These mandatory licensing schemes are not new; everyone would get access to make, use and sell tablesaws incorporating SawStop-like safety technology.
IMHO, SawStop is recreating the stagnation and deferred innovation in power tools that the Wright Brothers did with aviation. Wright had many patents that effected the entire aviation industry, and they spent decades and millions to prevent competition. They failed to see the advantage (also known as "network effect") of having their inventions licensed to everyone on an equal basis. Those licensing fees could have paid for Wright to expand their existing patents into new innovations on current concepts, and financed development of whole new aviation technologies. Similarly, SawStop could use the licensing fees they'd receive to further develop ways to incorporate their technologies in other woodworking products (circular saws, for example), and extend it to other industries.
SawStop may finds the curse in that old saying "Be careful what you wish for because it might come true."
Hope that doesn't happen here, we already pay 2x American prices, my dewalt table saw is 700 bucks here already in ireland
That's more to do with the EUs obsession with high taxation and tarrifs making everyday products unaffordable.
For your sake I hope it doesn't happen either.
Hello, Current Industrial Arts teacher here. Ignoring the personal bias I have for bringing shop classes back to schools, a consideration for bringing those classes back is making sure the students are learning in a safe environment. Schools are unlikely to want to purchase or train students on machines that don't have additional safety systems. Less expensive saws that do have Injury mitigation built in will help promote shop classes. I hope that SawStop sees the opportunity to put more good into the universe by voluntarily offering a FRAND License or sharing the patents because it will help the industry as a whole.
No school district will pay out for the MANY times those brakes will be triggered accidentally and purposefully. Too expensive.
My local school has had a saw stop since 2012, the cost to replace the stop is a lot cheaper than the stitches or injury from the saw. It's about $75 for each stop.
Another point I’d like to add, is the CPSC notoriously doesn’t update their standards after releasing them. I work in parks and recreation. The CPSC guidelines for playgrounds have not been updated in 30 years despite playground technology, data, designs, and the ways kids play having changed a lot since then. They will drop a standard and then stagnate the industry for the foreseeable future.
Very good information Matt, this is so ridiculous never good when the government thinks they need to step in. Hope this never happens it will hurt the regular people like me! Your right bring shop class back in schools
I have an old Delta contractors saw like the one that sat in the corner in Norm's shop and a Dewalt 7491 that I just bought. When used properly they do not cause concern nearly as much as my shaper, bandsaw, or 12" radial arm saw. I like the Sawstop saws but from all the patents they have applied for they seem to want to corner the market through regulation and litigation...
I would love to have a saw with that technology, but it needs to be much more cost effective. I didn't buy a sawstop because of not just the cost of the saw, but if it gets triggered it's expensive to get the saw working again. Plus if can be triggered by things that aren't body parts like wet wood. That made it a no go for me.
You can "test" a piece of wood before cutting to see if it is too wet (you power up the saw but don't turn on the blade and then push the wood against the saw blade and there are some lights to tell you if it is okay). If it is too wet, you run the saw in a bypass mode.
Your ladder and lawn mower comments are spot on!!
Thanks for keeping us all up to date on this topic. I agree with everything in this video. The percentage of table saw injuries are .0002%.
Looks like someone in the Government had a family member or friend with either an injury or a very close call.
Hope this get squashed because it would SCREW a lot of people.
Washington DC loves kickbacks.
This is always more about money than safety. The government should be paying more attention to running our country and not our lives. Most table saws today are well built and safe if properly used. I’m very tired of being treated like I’m a child. All machines are dangerous. You have to be completely aware of the dangers of any machines while operating. All injuries are due to neglect and carelessness. I think if a person is afraid to use a table saw they shouldn’t own a tablesaw. The blade guard that comes with the tablesaw is all that’s needed to protect you from the blade if you fear being injured. The only places the saw stop technologically needs to be required would be in schools for training children woodworking, adults should be more safety minded and responsible. I think anytime you are operating any kind of machines you should put all your attention to that machine and follow all safety precautions to ensure that you are not injured due to carelessness. A circular saw is more likely to cause an injury than a table saw because of carelessness. Common sense shows Properly using tools will decrease injuries dramatically. This is just my opinion.
I find a lot of similarities to this and the smart gun technology. it seems like someone in these committees hears that this technology is developed and they think it is commonplace and everyone should have it. Never mind the patents and like Bosch state that things like cell signals and other RF radiation all could affect the safety systems ability to work consistently without fail.
Additionally, I wonder if they will expand this requirement to circular saws, router tables, miter saws, etc? I can think of a dozen CZcamsrs I've found that have the very designs for inverting circular saws to make them into table saws.
100% agree that wood shop should come back to schools. However, I would wager that insurance companies are the reason the commission is considering this action. the insurance companies are more worried about profits. My point of that is I would wager that its the insurance companies that forced schools to kick wood, metal, and automotive shops out of schools.
Thank you for bringing up this topic in your first video. I sent an e-mail to the Consumer Product Safety Commission with two pictures. The pictures were of my Craftsman Radial Arm Saw and my ShopSmith. I explained that these two wood working machines are safe to operate. My two pictures showed the safety equipment installed and I explained that I always use my saws with safety equipment installed. With the safety equipment installed these machines are safe to operate and their is no need to install FRAND commitment. Thanks again for your video.
Growing up in the 70s we had shop class in Jr high as well as in high school. When I got into woodworking as an adult, I took a couple of semesters of cabinet making at our local college. The first thing we did before any machines were turned on was to learn about their safety. Wish they had trades back in the schools
So, to recap:
The industry says the data may be bad, while having absolutely no means of collecting better data since our system just doesn't allow for such in-depth data collection.
And that the SawStop patents are overly broad, thus making any solution that does not involve FRAND licensing untenable.
The government says they've no better clue at what patents are still in effect or for how long, thus joining all the lawyers' opinion, but they don't see how much this utterly derails research and development while incentivizing patent trolls and lawfare.
And Saw Stop says they'd be happy to offer licensing, despite several years of refusing to do so at any price, let alone a fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory rate.
Manufactures say they it'll add $200-400 per saw, and that the patent system is so garbage that even if they passed this law, most players would just abandon the market than risk cataclysmic lawsuits from Saw Stop.
No matter how this goes -- and I maintain that the policy of implementing FRAND licensing on all safety products, perhaps even augmenting that income with a bounty if further incentive to invent is required -- you'd think pretty much everyone except Saw Stop would be keen to have a discussion over how broken our Intellectual Property laws are.
If the government, teams of professional IP lawyers, and the people who pass the very laws at issue can't navigate this mess, don't you think there's a broader swath of genuinely beneficial devices in other fields that might be running into the same problem?
As broke and broken as I am personally, I'd merrily shell out $500-700 for that benchtop Skil table saw if it had a Saw Stop-like system. I'd prefer it over the Delta hybrid saw, even. But the cheapest Saw Stop is $550 on top of the Skil, and it seems to be of a markedly lower quality (from what I've seen reviewed, anyway).
One can debate whether compulsory safety standards are inherently good, and factoring in downstream effects is a key to any cost/benefit analysis. But our laws have lead to worse products, stalled innovation (due to overly broad patents and broad confusion), and exorbitant pricing that does not reflect actual quality due to the artificial monopoly created by Saw Stop's patents.
Owning ideas is a weird concept. We jump started our industrial revolution by outright stealing IP. Now, I want to see inventors well compensated, but if my choice is between a lack of innovation and higher prices vs an explosion of innovations at low prices, I'm going to favor the latter by far.
And before anyone jumps in, we apply compulsory FRAND licensing to all sorts of technology. You own multiple products within 20 feet of you that rely on such IP. And where that holds true, you still see innovations abound. If we can do it for cell phones, why ought table saws be any different?
While I understand the peace of mind that one can have by having this technology in the table saw, I also think it can be a bit of a danger. The reason being is that if you get a little too relaxed using your table saw because you know you are safe if your hand catches the blade, what happens if you carry that mindset somewhere else in the shop such as a jointer, or bandsaw? I would rather carry the fear and respect of the table saw to everything else in my shop and make sure I am careful at all steps.
I mean, that is a legitimate concern, but it's the lesser harm in this situation. Look at it this way, seatbelts and air bags make driving safer, but everyone knows they can die even if they make 0 mistakes. It only takes one moment for a drunk; an idiot; or a regular, rational person who just derped out for a second to wreck your life. And yeah, that perceived safety does lead people to let their guard down.
..but people were still wrecking all the time back in the day. You have the African example, where there was a sole tree for a great many miles around on some savanna, and some dude whacked into it. You've, I think it was Ohio, which had all of two licensed cars in the entire state, and somehow they crashed into each other.
Humans do stupid things. I've been told I'm relatively bright, and good god, I /know/ I'm an idiot. So, whenever and wherever viable, it's generally wise to mitigate the catastrophic consequences of very human faults. Sooner or later, focus will falter, or someone will do something unexpected, and it'd be better if could reduce the resulting harm.
And not for nothing, but I don't think I'd react to a Saw Stop triggering by being all chill about it. I've only really used a chop saw, but I had it snag a knot or something and really shock the hell out of me as it jerked up. A Saw Stop might not be as chaotic, but I'm pretty sure I'd still react with a "Okay, I need to go sit, chill, and learn whatever I need to so that doesn't happen again." >.> That, and I'm poor, so the $70 cartridge and maybe a new blade is also going to force me to learn not to do whatever thing I did wrong.
(..well, except for wet wood.
@@dracodraco1982"And not for nothing, but I don't think I'd react to a Saw Stop triggering by being all chill about it."
Yeah, I can pretty much guarantee you wouldn't. We have two Saw Stops at our makerspace that see heavy use by hundreds of members every month. They probably get triggered about once a week or more (mostly "false" triggers). I've never seen anyone trigger it, even the false triggers, that didn't soil themselves just a little.
@@MrJacobegg :P I'm glad it isn't just me, then. Usually, fear isn't much of a factor (except spiders, but I'm working on that) , but there's something just shocking about it. The speed, the force, the fact I had 100% of my focus on my work, eyes locked where blade met wood, and I still can't piece together anything from either surprise is just so unnerving. Isn't unique, all manners of catastrophe happen too fast to spot, but there's a whole world of difference between knowing that fact and experiencing it.
:P Adrenaline kicking in after the immediate danger is wholly passed and like a solid 50ms of no visual data in my mind just underscores it.
Out of curiosity, is either of those a Saw Stop jobsite saw? >.> I've heard iffy things on quality, just don't think I can justify $1000+ for my first table saw, and that's the only model that comes under. Hardly ever see any Saw Stop sold used locally, either.
@@dracodraco1982 no, they're both the top of the line industrial cabinet saw model. This is one of the largest makerspaces in the US, with a large budget, and woodshop is the most used area in the space by far. We have CNC mills in the machine shop that cost in the tens of thousands of dollars and are only used a few times a month by a handful of users, so dropping $6k on one of the most-used tools in the entire space doesn't even make anyone blink. Also, makerspaces members can be... rough... on equipment. With how much these saws get used, I can't imagine the compact models would last very long.
I’ve had close calls with band saw. Evil machines
I watching the Bosch mechanism that retracts the saw blade without using a brake like SawStop. I started to wonder why the blade needs to retract. If it can be stopped quick enough, there doesn't seem to be a need to retract it.
Maybe, testing showed it's safest to retract the blade. Is it "safe enough" to stop it without retracting it?
The SawStop replaceable cartridge includes some electronics in addition to the spring and aluminum brake. I don't understand why any electronics need to be replaced when the brake is deployed. It seems like there should just be a release explosive to activate the spring and a wire connection. That would reduce the cost of the cartridge.
I agree. We need woodshop and other trades back in school. I graduated a long time ago and so thankful for my time in woodshop!
If SawStop overplays it's hand, a well-heeled company willing to take a risk can simply infringe the patents, drive the case forward, and hope to get a judgment ordering them only to pay a "reasonable royalty" of some nominal amount. Should SawStop seek an injunction, the "public interest" element of the analysis could well result in a court saying, "No," particularly in light of SawStop's own claims regarding safety and preventing consumer injury, etc. Or if the patents are held invalid, that could jam up SawStop, too. Greed sometimes leads to unintended consequences. It has happened before.
In theory, yeah. In practice, that almost never works out well. Once a patent is issued, it is assumed to be valid until proven otherwise. Even in simple cases with pretty clear prior history, cases run into the hundreds of thousands of dollars and years of legal wrangling. For complex cases with well-funded defense teams, it's virtually certain that it would cost millions. (And if $100-$400k in redesign/tooling is cost prohibitive, then $1-10M in legal fees, on top of whatever penalties you may be forced to pay is out of the question.)
And whichever manufacturer was willing to gamble that money, how will they recoup it? If the patent is invalidated, then their own patents might not hold up, either. So you're spending millions in a gamble, and the best plausible outcome is you help your competition to take on a rival. Shareholders would absolutely sue that corporation for breach of their fiduciary duty.
We desperately need to overhaul Intellectual Property law. x.x Our system no longer incentivizes competition for best quality at lowest price, it's all abusive lawful to achieve an artificial monopoly, then exploiting that monopoly for every penny you can, for every second you can. It's become a hallmark of our late stage capitalism, what used to work has been corrupted to become dysfunctional, exploitative, and anti-consumer.
@@dracodraco1982 I don't disagree, and that is why I said, " a well-heeled company willing to take a risk." There are no guarantees in any of this, other than that it is going to be expensive. However, if the alternatives for a manufacturer are either to get out of the table saw business altogether or hand over the bulk of their profits to SawStop, they may well elect to challenge the patents.
The manufacturers seem to be united in trying to block this at the legislative level, which makes sense for now. Should SawStop succeed in getting legislation passed requiring everyone to buy their technology, the manufacturers might well elect to go to the "Plan B' I've identified.
But you are correct that the system is broken and now largely serves to protect established businesses from the possibility that someone with a better mouse trap might threaten them, rather than to encourage and reward innovation. But what's going on in the patent field is just one of the many ways that things aren't right. It's bigger than just Intellectual Property.
@@philmann3476 :P Ah, I got you, wasn't reading it as if it was conditioned on this council opting to act. 'n yeah, I know it goes a lot further than IP. But there's only so much political theory and philosophy folks will handle, and I'm already rambly by nature.
The funny thing is, I'm not actually sure the manufacturers are wise to block it. I /think/ the reasoning more or less boils down to "They have a limited share of the market; change costs money; and the rest of us are competing well enough to keep anti-trust at bay, so why rock the boat?"
Personally, I'd just as soon leap at competing against everyone equally, especially if I was Bosch, which has a head start, while raising a fuss about Saw Stop hurting consumers. Maybe the DOJ takes an interest, maybe they don't, but the attempt doesn't cost anything either way.
>.o After Bosch Reaxx was killed off, I get the feeling all consumer manufacturers abandoned R&D on active safety systems.
I find it annoying that because some people "choose" to remove the blade guards that comes with "Every" table saw and then follow that dumb move with not using push sticks which I am pretty sure also comes with most all new table saws, the rest of us who actually care about safety and keeping all of their fingers and who may not be able to afford 900 bucks or more for one tool have to "Improvise" at best or go give up a loved hobby at worst. So sad but, at least there are options like buying used tools in the marketplace or pawn shop, but even that comes with the whole "Buyer Beware" factor. Thank you for the information.
>.o From what I can gather, the free push sticks are more like the free miter gages: less of a tool than a tool shaped object. Apparently they're prone to shattering if nicked, and those sharp bits can give you shrapnel injuries.
That being said, what kills me is that the starter Saw Stop that runs $800-850 seems to be of relatively shoddier design and construction than the $300 Skil, or $400 DeWalt jobsite saws. Whenever you create a monopoly, you remove all forces that incentive competition on quality, service, and price. Since Saw Stop has gamed the system to get 30+ years of protections by layering their patents, and making them overly broad, that monopoly will have plenty of time to exploit consumers to the absolute max.
Safety systems should not enjoy absolute monopolies. They ought to be Fair, Reasonable, and Non-discriminatory licenses, just like we do with all sorts of other patents in devices you're using as you read this, so innovation can continue and consumers don't get exploited. >.o
Or, bluntly said, there comes a point where X amount of traumatic amputations of bits and pieces has greater societal cost than the Y amount of dollars enjoyed by people who didn't even design the bloody thing. I'm not real sure where that equilibrium is, and I'm sure there'd be oodles of debate on where we ought to draw the line. But surely we could agree 1,000,000 stumpy digits per $1 profit does more harm than good. And, if we're honest, most of us would probably agree than we'd lose any given finger from our own hand for $1 Billion. Somewhere between 1,000,000 : $1 and 1 : 1,000,000,000 is a sweet spot.
I'd happily pay that $200-$400 mark up for the Skil saw to have a Saw Stop-like system. But I can't afford an $800+ saw that is functionally worse than a $300 one.
..and for whatever reason, I virtually never see any other model of Saw Stop on Craigslist/Facebook. x.x The rare times I do, it ain't much of a discount off new. (I take that to mean the cabinet saws are great; I'd love one, yeah, but I'm nowhere near that point yet, and the artificial lack of competition is the reason.)
Admittedly, most damage I've suffered personally was either something I was born with, or a result of my own stupidity. (A little clever can get you killed, and you can't get very clever without skipping that step.) But it ain't that I'm expecting a freebie, I just don't want Saw Stop to gouge consumers, prevent innovation, and abuse our patent system.
@@dracodraco1982 I agree on all points but as for the push sticks, my point is that it not like even a beginner knows it exists for a good reason. Not only that if you have a saw stop and trigger the "safety" you then have to buy a new cartridge to the tune of yet another 100+ bucks or so over the high cost of their table saw. The fact that the company is refusing to share safety products licensing is based on pure greed and that is wrong.
@@angelcastro3129 Oh, on that aspect, I'm 100% agreed. The public's safety should not come second to private profits, especially when we can implement a system that still rewards innovators without derailing further refinements and developments.
@@dracodraco1982 I'm sayin, Preach it Brothah LOL
if the rules are passed, used table saws w/o the technology will not be able to be sold or even given away. litigation rules!
This makes me think of the blade stop on push mowers. When they first came out, many people wire tied the bar to the handle because the stop feature was frustrating to deal with.
Great update, I appreciate all the info on this topic and the reasonable way it's presented. I'm curious what the actual numbers look like: What would be an industry standard licensing fee? $5, $50, more? How may table saws are manufactured and sold every year? I get Sawstop not wanting to just give away their IP, but not everyone in the country is going to buy one of their saws no matter how much Sawstop wishes otherwise. Is getting paid $50/saw (random guess at a fee, I have no idea) times millions of saws sold such a bad deal?
Regarding 26:44 , it could be a better to compare other tool injuries by comparing the percentage of injuries for the total of owners per tool. There are probably more lawn mower owners than table saw owners in the US.
I would like to know where the commission gets their stats. Are the injuries on new saws or older saws, what kind of saws? Where is the saw being used?
And also what is an "injury from the saw"? It fallin off the stand and hitting the foot, resulting in broken toe? Short in the wire? Getting a splinter from a piece of metal? Cutting the finger while replacing the blade?
@@eljevandeventer6514 Also more specific breakdowns of the injuries. They just say table saw injuries. How many of those would have actually been prevented by a saw stop because flesh touched the blade? How many of them were due to kickback punching wood into their gut or debris fly into their eyes while not wearing eye protection? How many of those kickbacks had no riving knives installed? Many of those details are likely unavailable all together. They might have more info on the injury severity, which could be helpful indicators. Amputated fingers are likely going to be flesh to blade injuries for example.
@@eljevandeventer6514 My understanding is that this information is collected by hospitals. Hence why we see many traumatic amputation and fewer petty lacerations, it had to be bad enough to warrant medical intervention /and/ for that person to access it (as in, get to medical help and consent to it).
Honestly, I find it something of a minor miracle that hospitals took the time to specify what type of saw it was; expecting ER docs and hospital social workers to track where it was being used, how it was being used, what particular type of table saw it was is asking a lot for people's who's job isn't safety, equipment, engineering, or familiarity with woodworking.
>.o The data exists in so far in that it could be gathered going forward, but no one is collecting it. And no one is collecting it because it'd be expensive, and hardly anyone expects it to be put to good use anyway, so why bother?
Our short sighted focus on what is immediately profitable over what might pay great dividends to society if only we had hard data is holding up the pace of technological and societal advancement. x.x
@@lburwell99 And who should be collecting that information? The doctors reattaching fingers, the nurses keeping the ER running, or some government agency that doesn't exist yet?
Doctors and nurses don't specialize in engineering, their time is particularly valuable, and most would have limited to no familiarity with woodworking. Honestly, I'm kind of surprised they even wrote it down type of saw in addition to injury type.
But, since the data is collected from hospital records, it's going to be an undercount. There's going to be some number of people who either refused to seek medical aid, or were otherwise unable to access it. >.o
First area I did not hear on your video, how much does it cost to reset SawStop when tripped. The internet showed between $100 to $2000 range. Also you pointed out that wet wood or other conditions my trip the saw stop. I believe the first trip of the saw my cause customers to grab a saw without this technology. I understand the Federal Government just wants to Protect its tax paying citizens. When I was a child I did not have to wear a helmet to ride a bicycle. I could ride in the bed of a pickup. I did not have to purchase a vehicle with air bags. I believe the Federal Government NEEDS TO LEAVE IT ALONE! Where does it stop! Will they mandate this to be added to handheld Skill saws? What about cordless drills? What about framing Nailers? I can see how this would work. Yes you are right, basic skills with hand tools should be taught in schools again. I had shop class in High School. I also took two years of Vo-tech Auto Mechanics during High School. More people should be encouraged to attend some kind of training and/or schooling. As I pointed out on other video, this is going to push up the price of older used saws. If you approach me and say " I am from the Government and here to help, where is your table saw?" What saw, I do not have a table saw.
$2000 to reset the saw???? I didn't realize reseting the Saw is so much.
@@jronmanbuilds I had to look it up. Several years ago I decided I needed a good table saw. I went to Home Depot and inspected what they had. I left there with the saw I should have bought! The Ridgid Job site contractor saw for $500 bucks. It is easy to move around and setup. I have cut a 4 x 8 sheet of plywood on it, but it is difficult. I finally made a cross-cut sled for it. I like the little saw. I did not know about Saw Stop false trips, that could get costly.
The cost is like $200 for the brake (purchased from SawStop) plus the cost of your table saw blade (which you have to replace). Someone must have had a very expensive blade. @@jronmanbuilds
Thanks for sharing this very informative news regarding our tools of the trade.
I work in an Emergency Room. We see finger injuries and lost fingers weekly from saw accidents. This is a very common problem even among experienced users.
As a High School shop teacher, having a SawStop has been amazing. Especially since my classes are around 20 kids and to have the assurance of their safety (and mine for that matter) is worth the extra cost. Granted it is a school and I see over 100 kids a day and it gets a lot of use. The fact that sawstop has the technology in a stranglehold sucks, though. It needs to change.
Of course, you did not personally buy that Saw Stop. Public funding did. The rest of us mere civilians don't have that luxury. Just because a technology or its features is amazing doesn't mean it should be shoved down the public's throat.
It would be one thing if the patents had expired and any company would be allowed to use the same technology. But it is highly controversial and suspect for the government to pass a law forcing companies across an entire industry to use a patented product from a specific company that basically gives that company a government mandated Monopoly. If they pass such a law and they make it not take effect until after the patents run out then that's fine. That would be not much different than similar laws for vehicle emissions and gas mileage or the new laws for a certain number of sales to be electric or hybrid vehicles that are set 10 to 15 years in the future. But it is highly suspect if the government passes a rule to say that companies must use a patented product that then give that company a boatload of profit because now the government is forcing you at gunpoint to pay that company for their products.
That's not what's going an and there would be a law. The government's brief states "blade stopping technology". It doesn't say who's technology.
It's not controversial in the least to the commies in the Biden administration and their commie operatives that are embedded throughout each executive agency. It's business as usual.
Couldn’t agree more that wood shop needs to be a class in schools. My highschool didn’t offer it but I was one of the last classes to have wood shop class at our middle school. It was a fantastic class and I’ll forever be grateful to the men that taught that class. I’ve been doing some kind of wood working ever since and it’s because the common sense taught in those classes go farther than just the shop.
Matt, really appreciate you bringing all this info to light with so many folks. Great job researching all this too. Lots of hot points on this whole subject for sure.
It’s okay, this is typically how things work with CPSC and manufacturers (it’s part of what I do for work). Thank you for the video, it does help. Too many CPSC proceedings fizzle out due to lack of interest. Giving it public attention helps keep the momentum. Smart engineers and smart lawyers are working together to figure this out… without skyrocketing saw prices. CPSC is holding them to the fire to make sure they keep moving. 👍
I think of all the mandated safety stuff in automobiles (seat belts, brake lights, directional signals), home building (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters, Joist specs, under sink traps), clothing (flame retardant baby PJs) - I could go on... All these things add to the cost of the products. We complain and moan about it, but after a bit of time it all becomes the new normal and we move on - just a little bit safer in our lives.Somehow, I feel that this will be the same with table saws. (p.s. I own a saw stop)
Great video, thanks for your analysis. Very interested to see how this would affect the non US markets.
This is a great video Matt! Thanks for sharing more on this! Understanding it’s a business, unfortunately I don’t think Sawstop is looking to push the trade further. Instead they appear to be seeking a monopoly…even if it destroys the trade we all love.
Patent law needs to be reformed yesterday. This is how I would fix it:
Let a company declare how valuable a patent is each year. First three years nothing changes. After three years they pay 1% of the declared value in tax, doubling every year thereafter. At any point anybody can buy the patent into the public domain for the declared value.
If the government then wants to mandate something, they just need to buy out the patent.
how many of those table saw injuries are related to kick back vs being cut by the blade?
I wonder about the same thing.
I was homeschooled so growing up we couldn’t afford to have the equipment like I have now for woodworking but I 100% agree with you Matt they need to bring back shop class back in schools not just for shop safety but for teaching the hobby
I remember hearing the inventor of the saw stop technology offered this technology on a royalty basis to the table saw industry but no one was interested so he decided to manufacturer his own table saw and the Saw Stop come to light.
The only way this works in a "fair" manner is if the government steps in and "expires" all the patents early. This has enormous consequences.
You mentioned lawn mowers, what about chain saws, circular saws, hand held grinders etc. Are those next? Pretty soon no one will be able to afford any tools.
I actually started looking at new table saws to see if I could afford it before this rule takes effect. I have an older Craftsman saw that I got used. The overhead guard (with the riving knife) was missing but I have been using this for 15+ years without any injuries. I am careful and respective of the saw and what harm it could inflict if I am careless. I have been injured (minor) more by my hammer and chisel than any power tool on my shop.
You’re better off without all the safety equipment as you KNOW how dangerous that saw is without it and you pay closer attention to what you’re doing!
You are kidding, right?
@@margueritewhite3038
I can tell you right now this legislation will be kept alive but will be dragged out for years. Think of it from the politicians perspective, who has a great deal to gain by this lingering on. They have two large lobby groups wanting things to go their way, that's the insurance and tool manufacturing industries. Both lobbying groups will be filling the campaign coffers of politicians to steer policy their way. Politicians will want that flow of money to last as long as possible.
THIS...This is exactly why legislation takes so long. I doubt it will go anywhere, it's just legislatures making money.
It's not legislation, as it's not being passed by congress. It's an administrative rule.
@@BoberFett The same theory applies. There are still elected officials involved..
@@DavidATakes Are they elected? Genuine question I don't know what level of government they sit at.
Most government officials are hired just like any other employee. Take the FAA for example. No one in the entire chain is elected and only one person, the DOT head, is appointed by the president. Everyone else that works for the FAA is hired on.
That does not make them immune to bribery but lobbying often is done in legal ways such as election campaigns vs bribery which is just illegal. So it's much riskier and harder to hide such corruption involving a hired official receiving funds than it is for an elected official.
Good job. Thanks for
Thx for the update on this Matt. Have a Blessed Day.
I would like to know where the commission gets their stats. Are the injuries on new saws or older saws, what kind of saws? Where is the saw being used? What percentage of saw owners gets injured .... etc
Well then the only thing that would have to be done is the government would have to go into that company tell them they're going to lose their patent if they don't make it available to each of the other companies or they'll decease the whole patent thing under military application somehow which would destroy the patent completely
The government cannot legally take away a patent from a company before it expires. In the case of military or other national interests, the government can grant a license so that it can be used, but the patent owner must be compensated. This is exceptionally rare and even then is typically only done in defense applications.
You're 100% right about shop class. The whole time I was watching this video, I couldn't help but think that most injuries are likely due to improper technique and ignoring safe practices. Education would lead to a massive reduction in injuries. The biggest danger for beginners is that they don't know what they don't know.
Thanks for all of your research. We really want to get a table saw and now we have a lot to think about.
If im not mistaken sawstop tried to sell this technology before they started making their own products and no one was interested. So they made their own product. Suddenly now they're wanted to license that invention? I dont blame them for giving everyone else the middle finger. I agree, let us as consumers decide what we want to buy. Government intervention here is unwarranted.
Your comment that "Government intervention... is unwarranted.." This is the root cause of this headache presented in this video, governmental over-reach. The outcry here should be against the ever expanding power of government to impose their desires over what should be my free will and personal agency.
@@elginoctave it is not government overreach. it is insurance companies overreaching into the government which is causing the problem. if all table saws are equipped with this technology, will the companies reduce their rates? something to chew on
I said it before, and Ill say it again. Companies shouldn't be able to have monopolies on safety.
If a company/ person comes up with a technology that saves peoples lives / livelihood, then it should be forced to license that technology to competitors for a reasonable price, and those patents should be more restrictive on what is considered infringement on that patent, and the patents shouldn't last nearly as long. When 1 company is allowed to have a monopoly on certain tech, it completely stifles any advancements or innovation.
If the saw stop patents expired after 10 years instead of 20 for example, there would probably be a ton of alternatives to saw stop at this point, and the tech would get way cheaper way faster, and would also probably be a lot more reliable, as a lot more companies would be investing on making the best one for the cheapest cost. I wouldn't be surprised to see the vast majority of table saws have an optional $50 upgrade to have the aim tech, with $25 replacement cartridges.
Do I think companies should be forced to put the safety equipment in it? No, probably not, unless its something that's imperative to saving lives like seat belts and airbags.
Your idea will limit innovation in the area of safety. Why should a company invest R&D into safety when they will get a much better return if they invest in non-safety applications? Businesses seek to maximize profit.
Well then saw stop would then get in trouble for trying to monopolize by Patent
I have been woodworking for over 35 years and I have only seen kickback problems on my saws over the years. Luckily for me, I was standing to one side when it happened to me one day and a pinched, 2 x 8 came back and missed me by about an inch or so. It destroyed our privacy fence gate which was a pain to fix. My son also had a significant kickback cutting sheet goods and he got about 12 stitches. Both of us stand to the side now and push carefully. Neither of us has ever had a cut problem but a kickback problem is real and often if you hurry.
Though it is a great idea to put this technology on all saws it’s just not realistic right now. I don’t see this happening anytime soon. Maybe a start in the next 10 years. Great video Matt. 👍🏻
Thanks!
Why isn't it realistic? o.o Nothing in the system is particularly special. "Flesh sensing technology" is old, pretty sure it was off patent before I was born and that was more than a couple decades ago.
The fact Saw Stop has so gamed the system that lawmakers, lawyers, and agencies alike can't give conclusive answers as to when things expire kind of highlights that the problem isn't technological. We've just let corporations utterly wreck our intellectual property system.
unelected officials making laws and rules that affect everyone is wrong.
This is the best comment of all!
Great point about woodshop in school.
I believe, in the interest of safety, SawStop should lose *the trigger portion* of their patient. They can keep the braking system. I think this is fair to them while also massively opening the door. Simply cutting the power on contact with flesh would not only be a massive improvement alone, would also be insanely cheap to include, but could also be added to an uncountable number of other tools. This will also give competitors some leeway to come up with their own braking systems.
Patents are incredibly important. However some are way too broad and hold us back. I mean we're talking about a circuit that was in touch lamps in the 50s. They literally didn't invent the touch circuit. I don't blame the patent office for granting the patent but there is an extremely valid reason to revoke it.
It's kind of hard to feel bad for any of the other companies. They could have been filing their own patent applications to get more narrow coverage than what SawStop had a decade ago. But they did nothing. They've had 20 years to do something on their own, now they're whining about it.
Yes, it's true they still would need a license from SawStop if they actually wanted to make what they patented, but they would have prevented SS from having a complete Monopoly for what could be almost a half century.
That's not true. It was even mentioned in the video that Bosch tried to develop their own technology but was sued by SawStop.
@@ScottCleve33 They were sued because they tried to sell it. You can't be sued for filing your own applications to make improvements on their technology.
@@slightlycrookedworkshop they were sued because aspects of their own version were too similar to what SawStop used. That was also mentioned in the video.
@@ScottCleve33 Yes, but I'm not talking about that. They could have tried to filed patent applications to prevent SawStop from doing what they did.
Straight from the CDC websi9te - Nearly 1,000 bicyclists die and over 130,000 are injured in crashes that occur on roads in the United States every year.May 4, 2022
Just because people get injured in different methods doesnt mean we should do nothing! If things arent safe, they should be improved
This certainly would make the market of "questionable" used saws take hold. No protection there. HORAY FOR SAWSTOP! Thank you for this and other videos.
What’s funny is that Steven Gass (SawStop) originally only wanted to license this technology. All of these same companies did not want to pay to license the technology as they were not being required to add this technology to their equipment. SawStop then had to produce their own saws to monetize their patented technology. I think what SawStop is doing now just makes sense based on the history.
That's kind of like going to war to stop Hitler, struggling, then deciding it's better reign in Hell than serve in Heaven, and so they dedicate themselves to becoming Super Hitler.
They did not have to make their patents overly broad, nor did they need to abuse the system by layering their patents to artificially expand the length of their artificial monopoly.
Were the other manufacturers wrong? Yes.
Doesn't make Saw Stop right for everything they've done as a result, though. >.o
It's not unique to Saw Stop, though, don't get me wrong. Everyone wants to do everything they can to have a monopoly; and they've so broken our intellectual property system that it's pretty much stopped innovation. And, seemingly, will prevent any and all innovation for about another decade at least.
Or, we could make safety systems automatically subject to Fair and Reasonable Non-discriminatory licenses. Inventors get 20 years of profits, and innovation continues onward while better serving consumers.
Always trust the federal government to make people dumber by giving them reason to not exercise safety practices.
This is an exercise in non elected government officials trying to justfy their position without knowing anything about what they are regulating.
I remember the table saw we used in wood shop only had a blade guard. No riving knife. We were allowed to use the crosscut sled without the guard. I don't recall an incident on it ever.