Americans React To The British Class System (USA vs. UK classism)
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 4. 05. 2020
- We've heard rumors about the UK's class system and have decided to finally educate ourselves on this (potentially controversial) topic. đđ© We learned a TON while shooting this video and are shocked that we hadn't heard more about the British class system before. We have lots of questions, so give us answers if you can and do recommend books or videos on British classism. As always, our goal is to learn!
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Anne is one of the queens children. She came after Charles and before Andrew and Edward. Probably the best way to learn about the royals is through the crown. Iâm actually surprised u havenât done that yet
Yep, the UK's classes are not about money.
The reason it's about money in the US is because, as we all know, Americans are classless... (pun of the year ?)
Oh, and the Meghan thing, it was the class thing as much as being an American divorcee, something that is a bit risqué for the Royal Family and has not always played out very well for them... Last time it happened it involved abdication and Nazi sympathies...
I remember the "Grumpy Old People on Class" programme very well. As a European who's lived in the UK for 20 years I feel that I understand the British class system whilst not being caught up in it and it is fascinating.
I just wanted to point out a link to some of your other videos: you've talked about how Americans like to freely talk about someone having an interesting accent. I think you can probably understand now how this is an absolute no-no for British people because it makes them feel very self-conscious and because you are essentially telling them that by noting their accent you have assessed their class and social status. Americans are blissfully unaware that by commenting on someone's accent they are entering a minefield.
Since watching your videos I've really wanted to have a personal conversation with you, since you have such an interest in British culture.
@@lu_shulmu You're right! This has really changed our perception of accents in the UK. The British aversion to talking about accents makes a lot of sense now!
You should understand that the BBC show on class you are watching has a very sarcastic tone. Do not take it too seriously.
I would say that most people do aspire to be middle class as you cannot really become upper class unless you marry into an old money family. And people who do marry in to upper class families are often derided as social climbers.
There are lots of millionaires in the UK who grew up poor and subsequently made a lot of money but they will never be described as upper class. People such as Lord Sugar still speaks with a working class London accent which is definitely not considered posh even though he is now a Lord.
I think upper class denotes old money/ landed gentry. The kind of people who are called Lord and Lady by virtue of what their ancestors did 500 years ago. You can also tell somebodies class by their accent. The more 'proper' somebody speaks the more posh they are and it is likely they attended a very expensive private school. You are right that some old money families do not have much money these days and there are still people who live in huge freezing cold expensive old mansions which they can barely afford to keep in a decent state of repair. Land only makes you money if you are doing something with it and that is not always possible.
This was an extremely insightful and helpful comment! Thank you!
I like the WR but feel they are way out of their depth here in what is a complex subject. Agree that upper class is by birth, nothing to do with wealth necessarily. As for you second comment there used to be a name for the Middleton sisters (middle class) which was the "wisteria sisters", because they smelled nice and were good at climbing. Kate seems to have made the climb successfully though. Look at all the hate directed at Meghan Markle for similar reasons.
Oh the "chinless wonders" name that puzzled you. Because the upper class tend to intermarry, there have been perhaps more cases of men with weak (small) chins.
To be fair not even a "proper accent" makes someone posh. I'm from a lower-middle class background, but my Mum raised me to speak without a regional accent because she thought it would help me with my literacy, especially when it came to learning the English Language phonetically. I picked up a bit of an accent from other family members and because I've lived in the area surrounding Hull for most of my life, but I'm still generally considered to sound posh.
So even the "posh" accent doesn't necessarily make someone upper class these days.
It's literally all about coming from old money.
@J LD I emigrated a long time ago and now can look back at the changes. One example is the rise of "Estuary English" which certainly wasn't around when I left. Now we have the young royals using EE in an effort to sound like "one of the people". So I think that's an example of "flattening" where some upper class people become self-conscious about their accents. I grew up in Surrey with a professional father from Yorkshire. He made strong efforts to lose his accent and sound posh. I never liked it because it never sounded quite right to me. And on another note, I wouldn't trust anything out of the BBC to be unbiased. More like snarky and sarcastic as you said. I'm guessing there are writings and novels out there which might provided a better picture for an outsider, but I'm not up-to-date.
Yes I agree with most of this, however I am in a higher end of working class, but I speak very properly in front of my family and strangers etc but with friends I speak very informally and in proper with no care of swearing. so even though Iâm not super rich or even a middle class citizen but I am still well spoken and have a natural âposh accentâ but that could just be because Iâm from Buckinghamshire I donât know.
Class isn't as big a barrier as it once was between working and middle classes, but the upper class will forever be a breed apart.
Good to know! Thank you!
@@WanderingRavens Class is a really complex issue in the UK. So much of it is hidden...implied...social mobility alone could never get you into Toffland nor will money. It is an inherited status, being a toff. As long as you have your land, your title and enough business acumen money itself is almost, but not quite, irrelevant. You would certainly never discuss it. That would be vulgar. So money alone doesn't always dictate class...unless you are lower middle, middle middle or upper middle class. Yep, the middle classes have gradations.
The working class do rise to middle class easier now than in years gone by at least with regard to less snobbery from those they join. And the working class aren't always defined by low wages although all low waged are working class. But you do get some working class people who are doing alright for themselves yet are loath to leave their backgrounds. Political affiliations plays a part I believe.
It's hard for a Brit to talk about class...it's like asking a fish to define water.
Larry McCauley I donât think it is any different than America with in the UK the old concept of working class now being lower middle .
In the States it would be Trailer Trash or Wrong side of the tracks .
way2coolp but in America you can move up and down. UK is more what your born into
Genie1 X Having wealthy parents is certainly an advantage no matter where you are born . Not everybody turns this advantage into a successful or happy life . On the converse being born into a family of more modest means does not restrict you from having a successful and or happy life.
The thing with class in the UK is that (at least in my experience) is we NEVER ask someoneâs class when we meet them, you might try to guess but you donât ASK itâs rude
You usually dont need to ask, talking to someone for 5 mins will usually tell you everything you need to know.
@Orsen Carte true, you can normally tell straight away by how they voted
@Orsen Carte how so? Iâm the lower end of working class and I voted to leave the EU.
@Orsen Carte Iâm either blind or there was a glitch because I didnât not see your last comment about privilege lol my apologies!
@@alfiesalternativetitles1154 lower working and voting Tory marks you as upper working or lower middle. Lower working canât afford to vote tories you bloody class traitor
I was always taught that 'chinless' alluded to excessive inbreeding which allegedly plagued the upper class.
The term is derived from the characteristic recessive chin of some aristocrats, popularly thought to be caused by inbreeding and associated with limited intelligence, and from the idea of a robust chin being an indication of masculinity.
Yeah the inbreeding is not alleged at all, the upper classes used to regularly marry cousins
Many Royal families were related by blood, but would have to marry for political reasons (the political marriage).
The Habsburg jaw is the result of 200 years of inbreading. The Habsburg dynasty ruled the Holy Roman Empire for 300 years.
@@disisdaand3183 - and certainly quite the opposite of chinless
"Sandwiched miserably" was British sarcasm.
The narrator - Geoffrey Palmer - was a master of the art.
Class in Britain has very little to do with income.
Geoffrey Palmer, who sadly died November 2020.
Class has a huge amount to do with income. And while you can point to the rich working class and the upper middle class girl with a poorly paid job in publishing, there is a very high correlation between income and class.
It is even higher if you correlate a person's class with their parents' wealth.
yanks think of class as money only.
Boasting is a massive sin in the UK. You imply progress rather than declare it . So we refer to humble beginnings and allow the listener to connect the dots.
Subtle! We like it! Less aggressive than the American tendency to boast.
@@WanderingRavens The taboo against boasting is one reason why our advertising industry is so odd. George Mikes described the hypothetical average British advert thusly:
"Bumpex fruit juice. Most people hate it, but you might be the exception."
Now compare that to the Marmite ads who make a point that a lot of people hate it!
I think you are spot on . The vast majority of Brits are Middle class . The disappearing upper and working class are anachronistic and would worry about marrying outside their class .
I imagine the same situation exists in the States unless you could imagine a Kennedy or Old New England family marrying Trailer Trash .
An interesting statistic that might suggest that the UK is less class conscious than The US or Australia .
In the UK 93 per cent of children attend State Schools .
In the US 90 Per Cent Of children attend State Schools
In Australia 59 Per cent of children attend State Schools.
@@way2coolp But the US has a lot of religiously affiliated schools. So, they're private, but they're not like the public schools in the US. We also have a fair number of kids who are home schooled. Although, we do have schools like that a very small number of people send their kids there.
Class is culture. Its education, its where you go on holidays, its what you spend your leisure time doing. Its about the art you enjoy and the films you watched. Its the generations in your family and the schools they went to.
It's more where you were educated not the actual education. I have a better (as in higher level) education than a lot of 'middle class' people. So I have had what could be seen a 'middle class' jobs all my life, but still identify as working class. I wouldn't agree that the art you enjoy and the films you watch have any relevance!?
I've interviewed people who proudly wear their 'old school tie' and expect that to be a ticket into a job..... No, not with me, or anyone I know.
You got it with "It sounds complicated", it is remarkably so, and im British. Class is something you "feel" as opposed to conciously think about, you can look at someone or something and "Feel" whether it is middle or lower class. Its very odd..
That sucks
It's not that complicated:
Upper class - have a title, preferably in the family for centuries. In other words the aristocracy are upper class irrespective of what money they have
Middle Class
- Upper Middle/bourgeois - probably don't need to work for a living. Lots of money but not at the top cos they don't have a title
- Middle Class - lawyers, accountants, doctors etc. - well educated
- Lower Middle class - less to do with your job and more to do with your education (well educated people are unlikely to be lower middle class... irrespective of how much money you have)
- Working class - anyone who's not in the above. There are gradations here too.
agree with @Sef Hope though, you 'feel' so its not so complicated because its ingrained in you from day one!
Whoa, these two are dense.
To make it more complicated for you, you also have Upper and Lower Middle Class
Noooooooo!!
Iâve often heard the expression upper working class as well
In Australia we are all middle class There is lower middle middle middle and upper middle
To add to my post above . Australia being a Monarchy the Queen is not within our middle class structure but floats above somewhat like God .
Then of course we have Aborigines who were not included in the Census until the 1970s .
There's also the 'Underclass'.
For an example of this, I went to school with someone who always said their parents had told them that 'only stupid people work' because 'you'll be given money anyway'. Not working class...
The âhumble bragâ you mentioned is almost right. The reason the middle class retain their working class heritage (if they had any to brag about) is to lend authenticity to their identity. Itâs a badge of honour to say that one is un-pretentious. The middle class (regardless of their bank accounts) are renowned for aspiring to be better than they are, they are seen (at least by the working class) as hypocrites. Working class people, years ago, would try to lose their accent if they got a better station in life, but not now. Alan Sugar, for example, is rich, but to listen to him you would think he was still a barrow boy. And thatâs a good thing.
Class ascension is seen, for obvious reasons, as more respectable in some ways than being born from a long lineage of wealthy people, so some people who are even only a generation removed from the transgression feel especially proud, rightfully or otherwise. Those who want to distance themselves from the working class care more about appearance than genuine success because they're insecure. My gf has some actual rich friends and they care little about social status and more about integrity and how hard-working one is. They're all smart af, too, which partially explains it.
There's a little more to it than that -
People who have 'made it' into the comfortable trappings of "middle class" but retain the "working class" identity are those who want others to be able to do the same. Those who disown their background are the type who want to pull up the drawbridge and deny others the opportunity.
@@sameebah Most things are more complex the closer you look at them. You are right in part. However, I stand by the idea that most social climbers retain only the useful (expedient) parts of their past "class". Some care about others finding the same path, but others do not. And I would say both are acting to acquire authenticity.
do you mean barrow boy as in literally from barrow? i didnât know that was a country-wide saying, thought it was just local to barrow
@@missevieb A barrow boy is some one who works from a barrow in the London markets.
Harrods is one if the poshest shops possible in London, and has been for a very long time. It is considered "naff" (vulgar) by upper class people to display the name, because it implies you're trying to show off to visitors - and as the upper class are usually rich enough to shop at Harrods without thinking about it as being unusual or making a big fuss about it, they have no need to show off. Therefore, It is something (negatively) that they would expect middle class people to do. The idea being that middle class people would want to show off to visitors to show that they've been to Harrods and have bought something from there (and by doing that they are displaying that they wouldn't ordinarily shop there and so are showing off and trying too hard to impress people).
Traditionally each class group essentially breaks down into three subgroups: upper, middle and lower, e.g. lower middle class. These were defined by things like the job you did, how much money you earned, where you lived, where you were born, the accent you had, what your parents did, where your parents went to school, what hobbies you had, what car you drove, what friends you had, what clothes you wore, where you went on holiday, where you went to school, whether you'd gone to technical college, college or university and one of the most important and overlooked things when discussing the topic of class - which words you used. In the past "common" would have been used by snobby people in any class about someone they considered to be displaying signs of a class lower than theirs (implying really that the other person was being "the lowest of the low" or extremely vulgar/distasteful) - especially if they were just being nasty about someone else. The full phrase often used was that someone was "as common as muck". People like to say that the class system has gone away. It hasn't completely by any means, it's just far more blurred and partially hidden nowadays. However, most people don't go around in perpetual angst about class, they know who they are and just get on with their lives. However, sometimes problems occur when you mix with people from another class, especially if you are in the minority, because you might say or do something which is considered odd or wrong. If you are from another country you aren't expected to know all this, so if you get something class based wrong people will usually just ignore it and let it go.
From the mid 18th century and onwards, you had the upper class ("old money", "landed gentry"), the middle class ("new money", industrialists, bankers etc) and working class (probably the 90% of people who used to do all the physical work - e.g. work in factories, mines, market workers, you name it really). The 19th century saw the rise of the middle class. Simply speaking the upper class looks down on the middle class and the middle class looks down on the working class. Traditionally, each member of each class aspires to "make it" by moving up a class during their lifetime ("climbing the greasy pole"). But trying to social climb too hard is also seen very negatively. Both the working class and the upper class sneer at the pretentions of the middle class, while the working class tries secretly to "ape" them and the upper class seeks desperately not to slip back into them. The middle class seek desperately not to slip back into becoming working class, although playing on their working class origins to show how hard they've worked and how far they've come, while all the time desperately striving to achieve the break through into the upper class - that is why the video describes them as being "miserable" because they are striving all the time, "attacked" from both sides by the classes above and below them, and they are constantly worrying about "hot housing" their children's education by sending them to the right schools, making them do singing/dancing/playing the violin in the desperate hope that even if they, the parents, can't make the breakthough into the upper class then perhaps their children might.
Thatâs some wall of text bro.
Wow, that summed it up perfectly.
Your accent speaks a lot in the uk in terms of how you can be treated. I've had people literally snub me when buying items such as a car because they assume I can't afford it just based on my accent. I've also had people assume I'm really friendly to everyone because of my accent. It's all based on the class system and the perception of 'posh' = money
Class has very little to do with wealth. eg. You could be a multi-millionaire and still be considered working class. You could conversely be flat broke and still be upper class.
Ian Mullins Very true. Genuine aristocrats and the landed gentry rarely have any money left- punitive death duties and vast maintenance bills for country houses has cleaned most of them out. You can usually identify the real upper classes from their twenty year old Volvo estate cars that smell of damp Labrador, and the cashmere sweaters with repaired holes in the elbow.
Absolutely correct Ian - I worked in a law firm in the City many years ago where the Senior Partner was posh I guess youâd say. You know, signet ring on the little finger, could trace his family back to the Normans. He kind of used that as a superiority over others. Until one day when we employed a junior lawyer who actually was a titled individual! The senior partner couldnât pull rank - he wasnât as posh either by title or by the way he spoke, as the junior and it was so funny to watch!
I agree, I could win the lottery tomorrow, I'd still be working class. I'd just be lazy working class.
Ian as I understand it, class in the USA is about money, perhaps old money; in the UK itâs about breeding and the way you speak..
If you're not my age (and I hope for your sake, you're not), you will probably not remember a British sitcom where a posh, but broke family moves into a 2 up 2 down alongside a working class family.
The humour stemmed from the fact that, even moneyless, one was posh and the t'other not...
I think you're overanalysing a video that is meant to be poking fun at the British class system! We British are very good at laughing at our own eccentricities, and unfortunately you chose to react to something that was doing just that. The British class system these days is often more of a state of mind than something that is defined by wealth (or lack thereof).
You might be able to afford those shutters, yet you still choose to buy net curtains...
Agreed.
This is sort of what I wanted to say. It's not that you pick your window "dressing" in style to your class, but to some extent your "class" may dictate your tastes when it comes to these things
As a British person class is not a state of mind and not attached wealth.The upper classes are the established long time wealthy. it is near impossible for a person of colour to be upper class despite wealth or education because it more about being attached to white establishment of the UK so state of mind is not enough.
The people in various classes donât worry about how they furnish their houses, it happens as a product of the class theyâre in and the people they associate with and the places they shop at. Itâs something thatâs engrained into the culture, rather than there being an instruction manual on how to be upper, middle or lower class.
Everyone goes to Aldi and Lidl. Asking about money or someone's politics in the UK is considered very vulgar. Not Smart at all.
Class covers everything! Clothes, furniture, your home, the food you eat, your job, your education, where you go on holiday, what sports you like...... the list is endless. đ€Łđ
It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him.
George Bernard Shaw, Pygmalion (1916) preface.
HaHa! Well quoted. It took an Irishman to conceptualise the English in just one sentence :-).
Just because an Irish Socialist said it doesn't make it so!
@@michaelhodgson662 It doesn't make it not so either. My experience, as someone born in Yorkshire who spent most of his life in the southeast, attests to the validity of the quote. Some of the best authors were Irish, Socialist or both.
@@keithfrost1190 Yorkshiremen hate every one
As a teenager I found it interesting how my posher friends looked down on my parents house, and my 'working class' friends thought our house was amazing.
Parlato sums up this video lol
i was always embarrassed of my house, i lived in an area full of council houses, my house looked like someone of a lower class lived there and i was amazed when i went to a friends house and it was posh
@@maisiekxngmaisie,never be ashamed of your roots,they're your strength.
I worked super hard so my son could go to a good school and his friends used to love coming to our wee house as they could relax and be themselves. The parents like me know, but they certainly didn't then.
But there will always be someone with more, so just be satisfied, and if you get invited to the big house then enjoy it, and make it seem normal.
after binge watching so many of your videos, I've found all I really want to do is just talk to you and answer all your questions, I end up sitting here answering the questions to my empty office lol - great content guys
"Money can't buy class" - You know need to work at it. Make the right connections, frequent the right establishments, become friends with the right people. And finally, make it seem like you've been there the whole time.
Rob749s true, you have to appear to be one of them, but it is funny when you drop a clanger. Remember âMy Fair Ladyâ đđ€Ł
money buys the illusion of class. many people put themselves in debt so they are not deemed or seen to be poor or working-class.. the UK has a massive social issue. we are all in denial.
"Money doesn't buy class" (or more crass "you can't polish shit") is the very definition of the British social system.
Money is certainly the smallest part of class.
Yes, class is determined by money in the USA. In the UK, it plays a much smaller part. Millionaires can be judged as lower class/no class, whereas someone with hardly any money can be still 'upper class'.
Most of it is to do with who your family are.
Harrod's isn't vulgar - showing-off the Harrod's label is vulgar.
the only thing i could afford in Harrods was the shopping bag
@@ianprince1698 Stop showing off how middle class you are.
@@Gambit771 OK mate
Any shop that sells small fully working Ferraris for children is vulgar.
Harrods is vulgar, it's a horrible shop with pretensions for the wanna-be posh show-ffs, and tourists with too much money. The better choice is Selfidges or if you want "posh" Fortnum & Masons.
Hahaha I love the way American society seems to be so simple and straightforward. If you have money youâre automatically at the top. The UK is a lot more complex. Money does not buy you class
Very true, just look at their President, he's so common he could be a beetle, if the beetles would accept him into their ranks
Actually, thatâs not true. Education and money are relevant factors! I agree that Trump does not conduct himself in a classy manner, but he went to elite schools and came from money!
Stephen Flynn itâs not always a bad thing. I.e. someone like Obama could never become prime minister of the UK just because heâs black and hasnât been to the right university but itâs possible in USA, USA, USA (chant continues)
joey020 Rubbish. Plenty of UK politicians are/have been from working class backgrounds, including PMâs. As for skin colour; wider society doesnât care.
joey020 I give you credit for your objectivity! In order to have money, you need to earn it! If you are industrious you can do most anything you want! And no, Iâm not a Pom pom waving zealot!
Re: Common. Mum told me I was common when I got my ears pierced (this was the late 70s). Mum used the word a lot as well as some other wonderful expressions like, "She's no better than she ought to be" and the infamous, "All fur coat and no knickers". (I'll let you work out the last one for yourselves :0)
LOL
But only the middle classes and aspiring working class are worried about looking "common". The hallmark of the upper class is that, so assured are they of their place in society, that they act exactly as they please - whether that involves Lady Henrietta Jnr wearing an anklet and crop top and shouting "feck" or Lord Percy swigging so much snakebite and black he ends up spending a night in the cells
My Mum said the same to me when I got my ears pierced in 1976 as a 21st birthday gift from my husband. When I pointed out that the Queen and many other members of the Royal family had pierced ears she just said 'humpff - that just proves how common they are too! ' She used the 'no better' and 'all fur coat' sayings too :)
Sure you didn't need knickers in those days, you had your own fur coat :)
@@curmudgeon_OG having NO Knickers may have been the way you got yer fur coat.....just a thought
From the outside looking in, there is definitely a class system in the US even if you don't realise it.
In the US I was privileged to be part of a subculture for 2 years--of professional drivers of 18-wheelers (lorries). I doubt they are poor (altho I didn't do well financially), but it is customary to be "poor-proud." One looks down one's nose at college education, book-learning, suits, & such. To the extent that people I knew who had succeeded in college not only didn't talk about it but didn't put it on their applications!
@@rocknrobin644 - that inverse snobbery definitely exists in the UK to dive extent
@@rocknrobin644 inverted snobs. Quite common in the UK and other European countries ime.
I would break the US into:
1. poor
2. working class but stable
3. Middle class
4. Rising upper middle class (upper middle class people from middle class backgrounds)
5. Falling upper middle class (UMC from upper class, typically in a still prestigious position)
6. New money
7. Old money
The Uk seems more complex. Accents arenât really used to determine class in America.
TL;DR
The 2 ronnies would have been more accurate than the longer video :)
So... You do realise the video you were watching was a humourous look at the class system, not a serious look at it.
One way to look at the classes might be:
Upper Class
- Landed Gentry (no money, but huge country estates that are run down). These look down on the Nouveau Rich.
- Nouveau Riche (new money basically)
Middle Class
- Upper Middle Class (Investment bankers etc.) Plenty of money, and they look up to Nouveau Riche.
- Middle Class (Office workers) - Probably come from lower middle class families. Scared of dropping back to lower middle or working class.
- Lower Middle - Newly middle class.
Working Class
- Working Class - Basically anything manual. Trades would come above factory work.
Another way is White Collar vs Blue Collar (White collar is office work, blue is factory (grime shows up on a white collar, so you wear blue collars if you do manual work)).
The Middle Classes tend to be more pretentious. The Landed Gentry and Working Class don't really care too much what the others really think of them, whereas the Middle Class are attempting to climb the class ladder.
Oddly, if you were transported into a middle class or working class house and judged by the furnishings, you might guess the wrong was, as working classes are more likely to have the new comfy sofa, huge TV, etc. whereas the middle classes might have the older furniture and less mod cons - because they are spending all their money sending little Johnnie to private school in an attempt to help him climb the ladder.
Of course... All the above is a massive generalisation and likely to offend everyone.
Thank you for taking the time to write this brilliant comment! I think we leaned more from you than from that whole documentary :D
@@WanderingRavens that's because it's not a documentary it's satirical comedy. Most of the people that feature in the video are comedians.
as the punch line goes to the sketch you could not show. "I get a pain in the neck" looking up to them.
@The Cma Careful about the refugees, they are your next bosses. A person who can raise themselves up despite their disadvantages is a formidable person.
I first really noticed the class system when I joined the army: all the lower ranks were working class & most if not all officers were middle or upper class. A bloke who had the bed next to me on basic training his Dad was a bank manager & he was chosen for officer training, I asked about officer training & was told I couldn't be considered as my Dad worked at a coal mine, so that was that. He became a major & I stayed a gunner (equivalent to a private) until I left after 4 years. Officers were (maybe still are) called Rupert's as that's what a lot of them seemed to be called. The officers & lower ranks never mixed socially....
did both of you have a degree tho? Becuase i know you can enter straight as an officer with a degree.
I worked with the Royal Artillery and REME at Woolwich many years ago as a civilian and the lower ranks were top guys and girls. Brilliant people. The stories they would tell would have me laughing uncontrollably.
Themoohaha....Neither of us had a degree at the time, don't know if he got one later on though, it was 43 years ago & hardly anyone from a working class backgound went to university back then...
Xtcy Saf... I did my basic training at Woolwich in early 1977...
colly0410 thatâs sad! That is so deflating! I would have flipped my lid! I know the US is famous for its litigious nature, but I would have sued the Army for discrimination!
The point about the furnishings is not about choosing furniture based on class, but that your background would shape your aesthetic , so you can tell by how people dress, furnish their homes etc, whether they are working/middle/upper class
Iâm not sure how to even begin to explain class and classism to someone who has no idea what it is. Itâs just such a complex issue in the uk that I think youâll never fully be able to understand the nuances about the class system without growing up with it. But thank you for recognising and attempting to learn about this issue as so many Americans have no clue about it
Trust me. Americans know what it is. They just like to shut their eyes to it to be nice.
USA is very classist
It's an old fashioned concept and the lines are very blurred now.
A lot of teachers and office workers still look down on the Electricians and Plumbers, who can earn up to twice as much as them though hahaha.
Yeah which shows that class is as much about mannerisms and habits as it is about personal wealth. I mean, look at the remnants of the hereditary peerage, half of them are completely skint because they pour everything into maintaining their ancient piles. They all drive around in 40-year-old landrovers.
My partner is from quite a traditional middle-class background - the family had money going some way back, and if you go back far enough there were land and titles, although they're long gone - on the other hand, I'm from quite a working-class background. One of the first big surprises for me was that buying stuff from charity shops is very vogue amongst the middle classes, whereas growing up it was insulting to suggest that someone's parents bought their clothes from charity shops, and embarrassing if they actually did. But for middle class people, the older, more threadbare and patched the cardigan, the better.
I actually have to say, I've come to prefer the middle-class attitude to lots of things. It often boils down to not flashing money around, and not trying to prove yourself by buying expensive stuff, which I think is a much healthier mindset to have in life. There is a little bit of snobbery around certain topics, but I've not actually encountered all that much in the ten years I've been floating around in middle-class circles, although obviously it depends on the person. I actually encounter more reverse-snobbery from working class people. Some of my old friends find endless amusement in the fact that I prefer loose-leaf tea, for some reason.
@Bilbo Baggins Exactly! Also I've become unacceptably obsessed with compost, and its much nicer for the compost.
monkeymox Ah I see you have discovered another middle class obsession gardening . The working class consider a lawn somewhere to park a car.
@@way2coolp That's not true at all
Simon Bohan Joke Joyce ......We are all middle class now ...
You must learn about Princess Anne - the Queen's daughter (sister to Charles). She is a hilarious, interesting personality :)
Yeah. The Duke of Edinburgh ( the Queens husband) has made some great gaffes too.
She has an HGV licence, competed in the Olympics and made the conscious decision that her children would not have Royal titles.
Someone once attempted to kidnap her from her car, she refused to get out and told him to f*ck off.
@@keithorbell8946 The Duke of Edinburgh said later that the kidnappers should be very glad they failed.
@@t1rjb1 he says things without fear... only the outraged luvvies at the Guardian were ever offended
@@coling3957 And God bless him for it. Lol
Princess Anne is the queen's only daughter (the Queen had 4 children) and her title is the Princess Royal
A very fantastic video clip for culture learning. Thank you very much for your time making it, Wandering Ravens.
Upper class, Upper Middle Class, Lower Middle Class, Working Class, Underclass.
Brilliant! Thank you!
I agree, that's the best break down.
@@WanderingRavens "Common" would be the underclass that 06802300 refers to which working class people like my mum wanted to distance us from e.g. professonal criminals and people living on council estates.
@@crose7412 council estate doesn't make you underclass, most probably working class.
@@RamsFan93 I agree with you but some wouldn't.
Also the difference between upper middle class and lower middle class is massive, culturally and economically.
This is brilliant. I've been binging your videos since finding your channel, but this is the one where you'll have discovered most about being British.
Thoroughly enjoyed your video. I'm glad you picked up on the subject of what makes you a particular class in the states v UK. Here in the UK, class isn't determined exclusively by income or how rich you are. Money definitely helps, but things like interests, hobbies, how educated you are/where you were educated and how cultured you are are all factors considered when determining someone's class. So, ones social status and how much money you have are not mutually exclusive. In my own opinion, if a person wishes to be socially mobile, they will definitely have an awareness to some degree of the class they are in and how they will move up the classes.
Please remember that the films you have been watching are mainly satires on the real situation. The narrator in the main film was taking the piss (and you know what that means now). We have inherited the system described by Jane Austen but just after she wrote that there was the start of the working class union and Labour movement which for a hundred years made great inroads into spocial justice. Traditionally working class are people who do physical work (mining, factories driving etc), middle class do thinking work (teaching, doctors, lawyers), Upper classes, didnt 'do' anything, they lived of the work of others.
In answer to your question - Is this appropriate for my class?. We dont ask that but our decisions may show it. There are different fashions in different groups and each is fine but would like out of place in a different group. This really is a dangerous quagmire to dive into.
I'm glad accent was mentioned towards the end. You've often expressed in other videos bafflement at why brits can be so touchy/uncomfortable about having their accents commented on (even if it's to sincerely say "I LOVE your accent!"). Accent is a big giver-away-er of class, which as you've discovered can be a delicate subject. If people are uncomfortable in some way about their class, they'll also probably be uncomfortable with having their accent drawn attention to.
That's so true!
The way you mispronounced the two Ronnie's as "Roonies" wanted to make me chop my own bollocks off. đ
A book you might find interest to read is The Time Travellers Guide to Medieval Britain. At that time class distinction was clearly visible. There were even rules in place that told you what you must/must not wear.
Pulp Common People- everything you need to know about class... đ
czcams.com/video/yuTMWgOduFM/video.html what a great song. Very british, very Jarvis. love 'em!
I was going to post the same. Also A Design For Life by the Manic Street Preachers is well worth a listen for a view on educated working class pride.
This American loves that song.
@@Richarddraper def but you need to understand the context of what they are saying better than eric n grace will.. Genuinely my fave song ever
@Cowboy Nobby It's a song about a Greek woman so it doesn't apply. Wandering Ravens are trying to establish what Britons think of each other.
This was SOOO much fun to watch. This programme was made in the naughties which was just coming out of the 90s, when our idea of class was definitely more defined but the boom at that time changed mindsets. The upper class is still a world apart as mentioned by a another commenter, but the lines have blurred somewhat more since that video as the video itself discussed about some working class jobs now earning lots of money due to demand, and many children of middle classes parents who choose to or have chosen to do "The arts darling" are now not paid very well, where as before when that didn't work out they'd get a job through daddy's connections, die to transparency, this is very much less likely to happen (but still does).
On top of that since university tuition fees (politics on that aside) has meant in the past 20 years and since this programme was made there has and is a massive increase in working class children attending university now and lots of them now who have grown up now may live a more middle class lifestyle. So most now in the 2020s would agree that the middle class house decoration is not so much middle class but old fashioned, lots of the other parts still exist and class is definitely a mindset albeit blurring all the more. Growing up in the 80s and 90s all of what was said in that programme was true for me growing up. Final point, it's only blurring for those who transition, for many it may as well fully exist if your working class children don't go to university, or your middle class children don't live in a middle class town rather than a city. It's all very complex as you can see.
On another video you spoke about school uniform,which is a great way to help prevent bullying in schools as not to be judged on what clothes your parents could afford.
There's a lot of problem with class divide where I live. I come from a small, fairly working-class town in Wales near the English border and in the past 10 years or so, there has been a lot of middle and upper class families moving over here from nearby English cities like Bristol and Bath, and there is clearly a massive class difference. They come here for the cheaper housing, because we were a poor, small town, but in doing so they've driven the housing prices up so far that people born and raised here cannot afford to live here. There's also a fair amount of belittling going on. Although not verbally, it's usually more passive-aggressive, like people complaining about the lack of internet cafe's, the smaller portions in restaurants and takeaways (takeouts) and this general horrible attitude that I've noticed (as someone working in retail here) that almost specifically comes from the more snide middle and upper class people. They seem to have this expectation that life over here should be as polished and efficient as it is in the wealthier cities they come from
I've heard others say similar things about their towns.
So, Harrods. In the same vein as Fortnum & Mason, rich people shop there regularly, but don't talk about it. Tourists buy something cheap there so that they get a bag.
I married the daughter of a woman who was the live in housekeeper for a retired stockbroker living in a large house on the border of Ascot.
Whenever she visited, she would bring some goodies always in either a Harrods or a Fortnums bag.
Two Rownies? Two Ronnies! Ronnies pronounced as in(R) on(eees)!
Don't they have a Ron, in the States?
@@simonpowell2559 Ronald McDonald... lol
Two Rowns don't make a Right...
Yes , it's not "Rownies" as in "Rhode Island", it's "Ronnie's" as in "Johnny".
Oh no!! Sorry about that - this was our first encounter with them :D
There's a book called 'watching the English' that I read years ago. It's very funny but i actually think it has the best explanation for how uk class system works (accent, heritage, taste, wealth (which has very little to do with the two extremes), education, lanuage choice (sorry vs what), manners etc.) It's really comprehensive
Great video and Iâm so jealous that you have it quite a bit easier with regards to class. Regarding being judged on what you have in our homes defining our class. We have a saying which is: âkeeping up with the Jonesââ this covers two things one is that Jones is or was a really common surname in the UK and also it was a way of hiding if we were more âworking classâ and aspiring to be middle class by having the things the neighbour had or 1 better (especially cars) which then usually just led to one up man ship and competition to see who could splurge the most on luxury items. Hope that helps x
Hi Guys, really interesting programme on class and the system. It might help to view the system as a pyramid with the peak as Royalty and one step down as the "landed gentry" (the dukes, earls, marquises, and other lords of the vast estates that some families were awarded by William the Conqueror after 1066) and subsequent monarchs. The next level down is the aspirational middle class and the pyramid base is the vast majority of us, the great unwashed, as working class.Speaking as an ex hotel manager and having had contact with many sorts in all 3 classes I can genuinely state that the upper and working classes are generally a pleasure to work with. It's only the hugely aspirant middle classes that can be some of the most unpleasant people to meet. Generally the upper classes will have vehicles, yachts, furniture, crockery, glass, silverware and even clothes that are old, battered, chipped etc but all will be of impeccable pedigree sometimes handed down through generations of the family. The middle class have had to buy "new" and it shows (nouveau riche). In my experience and at the risk of opening up a whole can of worms here, it is generally women who seem to care more which micro class they are in. A lot of people wear it as a non verbal badge.Interestingly, there is an American lady, Julie Montague, who married into British nobility and became Viscountess Hinchingbrooke who has filmed a number of programmes and what it's like to live as a member of the landed gentry. I think she adjusted to it better than Meghan Markle though!
Dear wandering raven. Firstly let me say I really enjoyed this video and I was quite amazed at some of your insights being so thoughtful and in most cases correct.
I feel though you really jumped in the deep end given your level of knowledge on what is a very complex and fluid topic.
As many have explained the classes are roughly:
Aristocratic
Upper
Upper middle
Middle
Lower middle
Lower (working)
Under
Now depending on who you speak to many will role up middle and lower middle classes into one. The distinction between these two are smaller.
As in the video the class difference are apparent in many different ways, accent, job, name, clothes, attitudes etc. I will take the simplest route to explain.
Aristocracy - related to or member of the Royal family, probably with a title. Estimated population about 10,000.
Upper class, possibly also titled but not necessarily. Generally inherited wealth and property going back many generations, often their ancestors came to England with William the conquer . One step away from aristocracy. Some may do what they call "work", but essentially they are managing their assets and living off the income from those assets. Estimated 30,000 pop.
Upper middle class, a key indicator is they went to a top rank public school, though middle class do as well. These people have also inherited wealth, but crucially it will only be a few generations old. The won't have an inherited title. They will try to have the trappings of the upper class and may mix in similar social circles, but ultimately they are not upper class. Higher life expectancy. They will probably work, though they will often have income from inherited wealth. They are often found in top positions in older companies, especially in finance, or in areas still dominated by family connections such as the law, the high arts etc, certainly nothing to do with modern industry or technology. Top civil servants. Population 500,000
Middle class, they attend the lower rank public schools and private schools as well as the best state schools. They are well off and possibly newly wealthy. They aspire to be upper class. They form the top professions, managers, owners, entrepreneurs etc. These are the people actually driving the country forward. Population 5 million.
Lower middle class, they may have attended private schools or better state schools. They have some money, but struggle to maintain the appearance of being middle class. They are lower managers. Lower professions. Small business owners. These are the people caught in the middle being squeezed by lacking the money to be truly middle class but also keen not to be seen as working class. These are the people inacting the directions from the middle class for which they personally will not get any credit. Population 25 million.
Lower class. State school educated. Can be comfortably well off, though generally no more than ÂŁ60,000 per year. Lower life expectancy. They Form the solid bulk of the UK working in the trades, skilled or semi skilled. They deliver. Population 35 million.
Underclass, the poor, limited education, living in state accommodation, very low life expectancy, unskilled, recently include many immigrants from the Eastern EU States or from Middle East, as well as Ireland, Russia, African, Caribbean etc. Hovering between the benefit and criminal justice systems. Population 5 million plus.
Based on your videos from when you were in the UK, I believe you were mainly in middle class company. Therefore probably didn't see many contrasts between the classes. Also the middle class won't generally talk about this topic, it's a bit taboo, thus it may not have come up directly in conversation. Though my guess is that it was often referred to in a tangential way that you wouldn't have picked up on. I've added the populations of the classes above to emphasise the fact you would have to go out of your way to meet the top three classes. They are generally in different places, doing different things with different people to the rest of the population, so unless you do such things (think polo or grouse shooting) or mix in such groups, you won't as a foreigner, come across them.
Now as for the US, I am a fan of the country. I have relatives there and have travelled extensively over several years. People may not acknowledge it but there is very much a class system of sorts. There is an upper class, upper middle class, middle class, working class and underclass. Its just not viewed in quite the way it is in the UK, but functionally is similar. There is far greater social mobility in the US, but it does not eliminate class divides. What Americans usually mean by middle class is lower middle and middle classes. Upper class are the 'old money' families with multi generational wealth, probably dating back to the colonial era. Upper middle class are the families with great wealth, but acquired in the last couple of generations, top flight professionals and business owners would fall into this category . Lower middle class are the great bulk of professionals and managers.
Lower and underclasses definitions would be much the same as the UK
The US presents the concept of the American dream as a means by which one may, even as a recent immigrant, progress up through the social strata of society . However I have read of and witnessed the reality, that for the vast majority this is a very difficult journey to make. Indeed just as in the UK, it is actually got harder to do so since the 1980s. Many well paid jobs now are 'professionalised' in a way they introduce more formal barriers to entry. Combined with the rapid decline in domestic manufacturing and concentration on tertiary service industries such as finance, insurance, legal, advertising, brokerage etc. The UK has probably gone further along the post industrial journey than the US, but still these changes have taken away major sources of wealth generation from 'average Americans'. now to succeed it is necessary to have more formal technocratic education, something which is expensive to obtain, and difficult to get as an older adult. Lacking key skill such as computer literacy for example, will be a major handicap in many modern professions. Well I digress somewhat. The point is that barriers to entering the middle class have been rising at the same time as the wealth and security of the lower class has drained away. Add to this rapid immigration of unskilled labour into a swelling underclass and you have a toxic brew that leads to.... Ta da! Populism, anti globalism, reactionary, protectionist, anti 'progressive' politics.
Think this is bad? Just wait till the forces of AI, computerisation and robotisation of huge swathes of economic life take hold. Yes the end result could be better than today, but the transition will be jarring, because the changes will take place over less that a decade or two. Only those in the upper and upper middle classes will truly benefit.
Lovely analysis, especially of the US. I will add that most Americans also are aware of accents/grammar, but because it's mostly a racial thing it's not PC to acknowledge that you've noticed or have a negative reaction to it.
Good stuff, this. Thank you.
What a great detailed reply. You educated this Brit here as I have never really understood the class system fully. All I thought was that I'm middle class from middle class parents and my cousins were posher than us as they were well spoken Oxford people. I'm glad that by the time AI really takes over, I will be in retirement and not have to worry about a career.
I would like to emphasise, that I personally dislike (in extremis) reenforcement of social divides in any society. Individuals should be the authors of their own fates, and where possible the nation state should step in to support them. No one should be held back from equal opportunity because of their family or upbringing. The corollary of this is that equal outcome should not be mandated either, because to do so denies equality of opportunities.
Under coronavirus we have had a taste of what the state can do. I hereby predict that the government funded furlough will make a long term reappearance when AI begins to ascend.
Good manners (and whether you have any) are a good way of discerning class in the UK. I'm from a working class background (but my Mum definitely aspired to being middle class). She was/is obsessed with good manners, always remember to say "please" and "thank you"), no eating or drinking in the street, no swearing (I fail by this standard everyday!), be Lady like (see previous) and never "make a scene". My Mum (like many of her generation and class) believed that being polite and well mannered showed you're the "good sort". The upper class (toffs) don't bother with good manners unless they are talking to those they consider to be their equals... everyone "below" them are either given direction (as to what the toff wants) or ignored as if they're part of the furniture. If you work in hotels in the UK forget about getting a good tip from a toff, the greatful working class are much more generous to their own kind. The middle classes will tip but often only just enough to say they have, for appearances sake. So if a Brit is polite to you (and you are not a toff yourself) then that polite person isn't from the upper class. Btw the Royal family aren't included in this generalisation... they have to appear to be polite to everyone or... republic here we come (they still think the rest of us are just peasants though)
This is really rather interesting I must say. From my own experience, the subject of class has only come up in conversation on a handful of occasions to which I always keep quiet as I would feel uncomfortable admitting to be upper class (or whatever youâd like to brand it). I would say I probably fall into that bracket in some regards having been fortunate enough to come from a background of family wealth, going to boarding school etc etc. However I do find it uncomfortable but Iâm not quite sure why, itâs like an unwritten rule not to talk about class and status in fear of sounding like a snob!
This is a fairly old vid (looks like early 90's) and pre-Downton Abbey (you gotta watch it)
"Chinless" implies a deformity due to inbreeding whereby only rich people sleep with other rich people until the gene pool is depleted enough to produce said deformities.
Modern class mobility usually happens with Oxbridge (Oxford/Cambridge) students where the very smart intermingles with the very rich; or RMA Sandhurst where the best of us are educated in leadership in adversity.
It is my belief that received pronunciation is the perfect accent for leadership given the excellent command of the language to imply disdain, assuredness and mastery of any situation that could otherwise result in adversity.
In terms of other accents - Welsh is the most trusted (hence the BBC news anchors), Scottish is the most hostile, Northern Irish is the sexiest (apparently!) while Northern English is the friendliest.
Middle classes are generally people who associate riches with status. They pull out all the stops to acquire wealth and display it for all to see in their cars, houses, jewellery and hot partners. It's an indicator as to how far they've come from their roots. The "toffs" actually find all this braggadocio "rather crass, don't you know!"
Snobbery is alive and kicking in every aspect of life. Everything one does, says or owns can be subjectively interpreted as superior to anything someone else has/does/says.
Just remember that this video is about 30 years old so there's a lot of out-of-date context as well as an lack of internet-related convergence of ideology and barrier breakdowns
Hi Justin! Great point about this documentary being pre-internet. Would love to see a study on how the web has affected the class divide.
Thank you also for taking the time to write this all out. We learned a lot from your comment - had no idea Welsh was considered the most trustworthy accent! If you have any more thoughts, don't hesitate to share them with us. We've become obsessed with figuring out the class system since shooting this video :D
@@WanderingRavens Also the bit about selling the land is because most of the estates are tied to a trust, so a person can't sell and spent the family fortune and leaving the oldest son nothing, especially if it comes with titles etc. Like in Pride and Prejudice where Mr. Bennet "owned" the house they lived in and a small plot of land but he couldn't sell it and his daughters couldn't inherit it (it always went to the closest male relative).
A "duffer" is someone who is not very intelligent. So a very expensive education might be wasted on them.
Clodaghbob the upper classes have connections, and they look after each other, government intervention will never change this.
"The Two Row-knees", ROFLMAO. Why does English cause Yanks such difficulties?! "Row-knees" Lolololololol
Two Ronnies, a Bernard and a Colin, would really cause difficulties for them LOL
Bless you, that was not a documentary but a tongue in cheek look at British culture
Reginald D Hunter once made a joke about English class saying "A class system is something that allows you to discriminate against people who look like you"
You can move between, I was born and mostly raised Middle class but due to some family tragedies turned working class about age 10. My wife still takes the piss out of me for being posh.
There is rivalry between the classes, positives and negatives. Certain doors will only open to you if you are upper class for example, you went to the same school as certain people...etc.
I think you have a similar system in America dont you? Some people get an easier path due to their parents or who they went to school with. Others have to work hard to achieve.
I can tell you my family were happier and became a lot closer as working class. When Middle class you have to keep up with the other middle class rather than just be you.
Bat Dude totally agree, I think thereâs still quite a strong class system in this country... regardless of what some in the comments like to think... most ppl judge you by your âuniformâ. They can tell who you are by what you wear and how. I tend to think of the classes as tribes, if you move to a different tribe you generally start looking and sounding just like the class youâve now moved into..I think if you donât youâll be judged for being different and ânot quite our class...â ... Iâm talking from my own experiences here, some ppl might disagree but thatâs fine :)
Thank you for taking the time to share your insight! This helps! :D
And we definitely acknowledge that there is a class system in the States. We talked about the differences between the UK and US systems in this video, but we wouldn't be so brash as to make a judgement call on which one was "better." Thank you for taking the time to comment!
@@summerssummers1986 thanks. Yeah it is still a strong thing and you're right. Being "posh" amongst those that aren't and vice versa depending on company can get a negative or mocking positive response depensing on if they consider you part of their class.
I think like most things bad stereotypes come from them both. Some middle class consider working class lazy and stupid. Some working class consider middle class as entitled and and spoilt. You can specifically see this in media targeted at those classes. Upper class is unattainable mostly to both other classes.
The thing our system lacks like most of the world is for all parties to realise that most people are just getting along the best they can.
@wandering ravens, sorry didnt mean to suggest you didnt address your class system, it was more of a question as I've never been to the states but thats just what I see from the outside.
I would recommend the book âWatching the English: the hidden rules of English Behaviour â by Kate Fox. It is a sharp witted look at the English and their class system by an American. An hilarious and fascinating read.
I loved this book!
Yes great book!
I've been watching a few of your videos and I think you're great, open and curious. These are my thoughts about culture and the cultural differences between the British (I am English) and the Americans:-
1. In the end all people are the same. Everyone - even foxes - want shelter, food, sex (or a nice cup of tea!), and fun. (I like the idea of a fox drinking tea.)
2. But different cultures reward different things. In America, there are people with a great sense of humour (I mean Americans wrote "The Simpsons"), but generally America rewards people who are earnest, taking things seriously, saying that they are passionate about stuff, being optimistic. To the British, this all seems a bit over the top. In Britain, there are people who are passionate about stuff, but they know that Britain rewards people who are funny.
3. When I was first in New York, someone said they were going for a promotion. The Americans said, great, you'll do well, you're really talented. The British thought, Holy smoke, this is a chance to take the piss and chipped in with comments about whether the guy wanting the promotion would be the right choice given the fact he was ... short, not so bright, common. We thought we were being dead funny. The Americans thought we were just being bastards!
4. The social classes in Britain are lower class (also called working class), middle class, and upper class. The middle classes are very big, so it is divided into lower middle-class - a class that people often take the piss out of because they are aspirational and therefore too serious about life - and the upper middle-class, who are quite posh, perhaps sending their kids to a private shcool or going on skiing holidays (a lot of British prime ministers, for instance Boris Johnson, David Cameron, or Tony Blair are upper middle-class). To be upper class - a toff - you have to be an aristocrat (5 ranks, from top to bottom: duke, marquess, earl, viscount, and baron) or in their circles.
I would say that I am middle middle class! Posh enough to go to a private school - but on a scholarship. But not posh enough to have a horse and skiing holidays.
A lot of people like me love the class system because it provides a lot of opportunities for taking the mickey out of people. A lot of British sit-coms rely on class differences, typically putting posh people with not so posh and seeing how they find each other irritating.
5. Some of the people who set themselves up as posh are not really so posh and are parodies of real posh people. They know that they are not really so posh, and everyone else does too, and it's a kind of in-joke. Peter Yorke, the guy that is featured in your video and who you commented on for having a ridiculous voice, is in this bracket.
6. Your class is defined mainly by your father's profession and therefore the sort of childhood you had. You can be born lower class and later become fabulously rich and people will still look down on you. Thinking that you lacked class as in good taste. Good taste usually meaning being sober, so not wearing bling or having gold bath taps, etc.! I think this also happens in America. If a redneck suddenly became a millionaire, a New York sophisticate, say Woody Allen, would still look down on him (or her).
7. Well, I say look down on you, but this stuff about calling people "common" or "chavs" is often done tongue in cheek. For instance I like working class people, have no problem with them, but for a laugh I might refer to someone who was working class as "a peasnt". People would laugh, but nor harbour any real bad feeling to the person who we were poking fun at behind his or her back. Very brave of us taking the piss out of someone behind their back!
8. Americans do not need to worry about their postiion in the class system. British people put Americans and other foreigners in to their own special group!
(For more information about the British class system buy "Class", by Jilly Cooper, a funny book. She takes the piss out of all of the classes including her own - she is upper-middle class.)
I really enjoyed that! You made some astute observations, especially that ordinary working-class (WC ) families did not want to be associated with the "common" i.e. Vulgar WC stereotypical people.I came from a solid London WC family in a very solid WC area and my interests growing up were typically WC pursuits: Football, Racing, Gambling etc but I attended a good Grammar School and mixed with some Middle Class (MC ) Guys and I broadened my horizons so after 66 years of working in Public and Private Industries and living in Inner and Outer London and owning 2 companies I am like a chameleon floating between the 2 classes , as necessary ,with consummate ease .My accent is Southern English but more Cockney when watching Football and going Racing, naturally...lol
I'm British(in Scotland). When we buy stuff for decorating the house we don't think about what class we are in. We think about the furniture, curtains and blinds like what we like and if it is comfy or not.
That's good to know! Thank you for setting us straight on that, Jade!
Of course you don't, but what you like will be influenced by the class you are in.
Cleoldbagtra Allsorts yes we donât think about it. Itâs part of who we are.
I had two Scottish bosses in New Zealand who put me on paper work when I was temping because I had a posh accent.
Prince Charles, Princess Anne, Prince Edward, price Andrew are the queen children
Elizabeth Frame,who is price Andrew?
@Brian Breen the queen youngest son and duke of York
Okay, for real. While moving into my new place, I have been asked which end of the terrace I'm moving into, which side of the street, which side of the river, etc. I've been informed about individual tenants in the area and how people have decorated and updated the insides of their houses. Seems like people of that small city have the entire thing mapped out and graded with precision. I just wanted a big enough place for a home office and a couple of cats, but even the application for leasing a place in the UK was so strange. They don't just take the first person with good credit that applies, they are willing to wait months for the RIGHT person with the RIGHT job and the RIGHT status. No credit check or rental history required.
Also, I should say, even though this city is considerably rural and friendly, they're still divided into different classes. It doesn't matter what you do or where you come from in the UK, you probably still refer to someone as a sheepshagger.
Dear Eric and Grace, I very much enjoy listening to your missives on life's observations. I have just watched your commentary on the English class system and would draw your attention to the author Jilly Cooper who wrote an interesting book entitled 'Class'. By the way Princess Anne is the Queen's daughter and most respected and dignified member of the Royal Family.
Brilliant, that was so funny watching you guys trying to get your heads around this subject. Despite what certain people may say, the class system is thriving in Britain.
We're glad you enjoyed it! :D
And yes, boarding schools are very common I would say. I live 2 towns away from one of the most prestigious European boarding schools. Though most people go there on sport scholarships
Good to know! Thank you!
Boarding schools are not popular amongst the British or private schools . With 93 per cent of Children attending State Schools in the US 90 per cent attend State Schools .
I read somewhere that around the 1920's & 30's, before air travel to the US became popular the upper classes would visit America by ship. On the way out the deckchairs would be on the port side of the ship, because that's where the sun was and on the way back they would be placed on the starboard side, thus Port Out Starboard Home or POSH.
As a Brit, really interesting to think about something I've just grown up with. Social position was a much bigger thing 50 years ago - my dad often said to me 'know your place'.
POSH - comes from the days of the British Empire. When the ruling classes sailed out to administer India it was often very hot and sunny on board ship. The wealthy or people of influence could take the best cabins, ie the cooler side of the ship going to India was the left hand side of the ship and the right hand side coming home - hence Port Out, Starboard Home (POSH = wealthy or people of influence).
I recommend the sit coms To the Manor Born ,and Keeping Up Appearances. Is it Mrs Bucket or Bouquet?
Lmao, it was so cute to just see you two sat listening intently without seeing it ourself đ
Asking questions (polite conversation!) is a more covert way of establishing a person"s "social standing" without being direct, the majority of people know this is taking place. Determining the type of house you live in, the area or the car you drive, your profession and decor taste all speak volumes about your social standing.
The thing about the blinds I can relate with. If I see a house that has nice blinds in every window I always think theyâre a bit more well off where as if there was just curtains or what not, Iâd think different. Itâs probably just me.
With class the question of what is desirable is very much based on how you want to live your life, and usually what's frowned upon is putting on a false facade that you're something you're not, so a working class person that starts acting haughty will find themselves often out of place in working class groups but living differently to the middle class people they aspire to be, same with the middle class although there's less stigma about mixing with the upper class. With the thing about the burden of being middle class, I'd say that tends to be more about the lower middle class, the people that don't quite have the upbringing or money to easily fit in and have to struggle to keep up appearances.
With the pride about being working class it's usually pride about being from what's seen as the good working class, you struggled but you worked honestly.
With the idea of whether you bought your furniture, the upper middle class and upper class are more likely to go to places where someone who knows what they're doing advises you on what goes with what.
Thank you for taking the time to share your insight! This helps! :D
You guys know there is a bit at 10:47 where we can't see or hear what you are reacting to?
Noooo! We were in a rush to get this out in time for our Tuesday deadline, and didn't proof it as well as we should have :( The missing scene was a brief introduction to boarding school in the UK.
It was very awkward xD
It gave me a laugh please dont change it đ
It's fine, you just look stoned đ
17:45 because theyâre still working for the end goal, the working class just go to work everyday and happily live their lives and are mostly proud to be working class and the upper class has everything they want including status so theyâre also happy while the middle class is working to be something theyâre not
You have your own superb versions of this in the comedy series Frasier...and it's forerunner Cheers which always deal with these issues
The Road To Wigan Pier by George Orwell is essential reading for anybody wanting to learn about the classes.
The upper classes in Britain unlike the rich in America don't avoid military service. In ww1 Eton which is a school for upper class people, lost 20% of its former pupils in the war.
Rich Americans cannot get away with shirking during wartime. Some may serve during peacetime (George S. Patton comes to mind.) The British upper classes do, however, have a strong tradition of serving as professional military officers.
Bone spurs?
@Hal Davis Trump? Didn't Bush 2 "serve" in the Air National Guard? Did you do your degree first or serve first? Did the military pay for your degree(s). You might be an outlier - from what we see many of the US troops are using service as a way to escape poverty or gangs or jail.
i have a little gem for ya. POSH is derived from 'Port Out Starboard Home'. It refers to rich passengers who could afford two cabins on an ocean liner back in the day. They would depart on the port side cabin, the left side to wave at the crowd as they left and on the return journey they would have the starboard side, the right side to wave as they came home. POSH - Port Out Starboard Home.
It was about where the sun was in the sky, going port out meant you had the morning sun, which is milder and you don't have to worry about sunburn and a tan which in those days was not considered the done thing. Starboard home, always facing the rising sun in the east also meant that your cabin was cooler, as they were not air-conditioned. Nothing to do with how the ship docked
It really is very interesting that it goes as deep as for example I use different accents depending on the class of the person I am speaking to
Princess Anne is the queens eldest daughter. He also has another son called Prince Andrew, but we dont talk about him.
Donât forget about the Queens 3rd son. She has four children. Three sons and a daughter.
@@emefrench8984 everyone forgets Edward... :P
Us Ukians donât usually make a really big deal with the class system just so u know and we never talk about in front of others
Good to know! Is it more just something that people slowly learn about through osmosis as they grow up?
@@WanderingRavens Largely yes, but there are still sections of Middle/upper class people that look down on working class people vice versa there are some working class people that think all middle/upper class people are posh cunts.
Its most apparent within some of the higher Education schools/unis that show a level of bias to the working class, although it is getting better.
Personal anecdote: My brother was at a party and was talking with people in the West end of Glasgow and everyone was cool with him, but the second they found out that he was from Easterhouse (one of the roughest and poorest areas in Glasgow) girls started clearly holding their bags closer to their chest and then them and the dudes they were with refused to talk to him, they were being such obvious dicks to him purely because of where we are from that they got launched out the party by the host
Sowlio itâs nice to see that you are evenly balanced, a chip on both shoulders.
@@way2coolp I have no idea what chips on my shoulder you are referring to. I gave an answer to the question, with a personal story that highlights that there are still some people out there that sadly judge people based on where they're from or their perceived class. I really don't see where you're coming from on this?
Yep on re reading your post your probably right ...sorry I jumped to a conclusion of someone playing the victim .
What happened at 10:50 ?
By the sound of the reaction you were watching something about boarding schools, bit didn't include the actual clip in the edit.
Nice video Itâs because we have evolved out of the feudal system ever since the Norman conquest, no matter how much money I have as soon as I go into posh restaurants and bars or shops as soon as I open my mouth and talk I am treated accordingly, interestingly my daughter who is a accountant married an ex public schoolboy barrister and has changed her accent which is good except when she has a drop too much and her voice channels her inner working class, we can never escape our class the voice gives us away every time
You are taking it toooo literally. We British are just joshing you. The show was pure comedy. have fun.
We'll take the show with some salt then :D
@@WanderingRavens A very large pinch of salt. Its self deprecating British humour again.
I'm glad you said it, I didn't have the heart. It would have just complicated things more.
Absolutely. This is not a documentary at all. It's just taking the piss.
@@antonycharnock2993 yeh it's humour, but like most humour it's based upon reality
Hi! I'm a Brit and have a politics degree, so I think I can help to clear up any confusions regarding our class system. (Hopefully without overcomplicating it).
Firstly, a little history: The British class system has been in a constant state of change for thousands of years, there's specific 'rupture' points that lead to significant changes. Such as the industrial revolution, which lead to the decline of landed Aristocracy and rise of the wealthy industrialists (there are still remnants of the Aristocracy today-such as the Royal family). Essentially what was the middle class overtook the upper class (becoming the new upper class themselves).
The industrial era created the (almost stereotypical) class system that you saw in the Two Ronnie's sketch; upper class, middle and working class being the main 3. Each was very much self-aware of their positions in the social system, hence class became, as you noted, an identity. (It's also worth noting that middle class in the UK doesn't mean 'Middle income' as it does in the States).
The latest economic/class rupture occured in the 70's/ 80's, when Britain de-industrilaised. Leading to major class conflict throughout this period and an new class configuration.
The working class was shattered; millions were unemployed due to the shutting down of factories and mines, the Union's powers were neutered and the political party that represented it (Labour) was in the wilderness.
The working class was now divided; you had the underclass (unemployed, welfare benefits, council housed etc) the remnants of the traditional working class and the newly emerging affluent working class (who although working class, wanted greater social mobility and held middle class values). Thatcher had appealed to this latter class to win the 1979 election by promising the ability to buy one's council house (state provided housing), as well as offering this class more opportunity to buy stocks and shares in newly privatised industries (before Thatcher 20% of the UK economy was publically owned- hence why we don't have the same hang ups about 'socialism' as in the States, in fact socialism was often tied into W/C identity, prior to Thatcher). This new affluent W/C, despite having less cultural capital or social capital than the M/C, can, in have greater economic capital. Especially if you're referring to the "lower/technical middle class".
The industrialists as well were replaced by an new dominant class, the financier (which is today's elite in the UK).
Class as mentioned is influenced by economic capital (wealth), social capital (who you know/socialize with/network with) and cultural capital (accent, music taste, clothing, school you went, sports you like, how you decorate- it's learned like a language)
The cultural element has also been influenced by globalization. Ie: popular/mass culture is consumed more by the under and working class, whilst middle and upper will also consume more 'high culture'- classical music is more likely to be listened to by those who are U/C or M/C for example.
Hope that helps and isn't too long or political.
Oh, and to answer the question in the video, we know the US class system isn't the same, you guys tend to 'sit outside' the class system when you're here- unless you gain citizenship, then I'd imagine you'd slowly be socialised into it.
Here's a British class calculator done by the BBC that splits class into 7, essentially it includes the sub-divisions if the basic 4 (Upper, Middle, Working and Underclass) I mentioned:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973
My sister used to go to a girls grammar and sheâs working class.. I donât know about elsewhere but in Kent all you have to do is pass the Kent test at the end of Junior school. Although weâre working class weâre fairly well off within our class
Toff is a word used to kinda laugh at snobbish rich people lol
Haha, good to know! Thank you for defining that for us :D
@@WanderingRavens Toff comes from 'toffee-nosed' - nose stuck up in the air so they could look down on others.
When it comes to the middle class playing up their working class roots just think of the j lo song Jenny from the block
"Dont be fooled by the house that I've got I'm still Jenny from the block"
You could watch Made In Chelsea series 1
& The Only Way Is Essex to get some kind of idea about different classes in the UK
One other really important point!!! This was pointed out to me by another Canadian living/working in a wealthy part of London. Accents! The class system is hard to climb because the accents of people that went to the most expensive schools (like Eton) are so different to that of your average coal miner.... because of the schools and the parts of the country. This guy pointed out the as Canadians, the Brits didnât have a clue about our social background so we have the advantage of being taken at face value for who we are and being able to be accepted by anyone. He put a lot of his success down to the fact that he isnât pre judged by anyone. He was actually from quite a poor background in Canada, but they donât have any idea of his background. If you watch tv shows like Downton Abbey itâs easy to tell whoâs rich and whose a servant by the way they speak. It unfortunately makes it harder to move classes in the UK, but itâs nowhere near as bad as it used to be.
We also think that in the UK being in the middle class is normal and definitely NOT miserable at least I think so
And it wasn't meant to be serious anyway - it's the dry British humour coming out, isn't it?
@JACK0B0Y In that case you lack the awareness that both upper and working class people see the bulk of the middle class as vacuous and middle of the road.
I'm working class and think working class and lower-middle class is normal.
Generally, the underclass I try to avoid in every aspect, along with the upper class. Though I feel more socially comfortable around the underclass than I am with the upper class people.
Electrician, 39, grew up on a council estate.
A lot become fake chavs or try desperately to fit in with upper class.
Grace would be considered quite a middle class name. Eric would have been working class a couple of generations back but now spans all classes. (Thanks to Eric Clapton for that)
It's an interesting topic really as the class system is deeply ingrained in British culture and extends to every part of individual identity. What is also interesting is the relationship between class and food as it does dictate the type of food and the amount of food that you eat even on a daily basis never mind when eating out. It's seen as rather "common" to consume large quantities of cheap and largely unhealthy food, the emphasis is usually on quality rather than quantity. This does also extend to alcoholic drinks as would be far less likely to see a middle class person sitting in a local Wetherspoons and drinking pints of Carling. In working class culture drinking alcoholic drinks like wine or cocktails is also often considered effeminate, in other words if it's not a served in a pint glass it's seen as a bit girly. It's also interesting that I think that Rugby is considered more middle-class than Football in England. It seems that you essentially have to learn a new set of behaviours and tastes, which amounts to a certain amount of education, to move from the working classes and be accepted in the broader middle-classes.
There were at one time also lateral class differences. There is also the serving class, which is a kind of posh working class. Servants would have all worked long days and slept in a tiny room, but known how to fold linens and put out complex silverware settings. Even if they were level on the class scale with a labourer, there would be resentments that either were common or a bit poncey. There was still an undercurrent of this conflict and resentments in my family in Canada a generation later, because one side had been more servants, and the other had been more labourers.
When he said Ricky it reminded me of Bianca out of eastenders.
See my Rickieee postđ Oh when Eastenders was fun.
Very working class
that's RICKY!!
Ricky Spanish
Grayson Perry did a great series for channel 4 on the class system for his tapestries. Canât remember the title, but itâs better than what youâve watched.
30:43 she is completely right there , I'm working class but that has never really mattered in terms of who i choose to be with but the upper class people i have met Especially from my very distant family i have seen once every year tend to look down on other classes a bit more.
Great vid. Posh 'i think' is an acronym. Toff is short for toffee nosed.
Easily pushed out of shape?
@@martinreddy3823 when cruising to america and back, the cabins that had the sun were the most expensive. Port out starboard home. Posh. Im not sure if that is true though
Paul Moore I have always heard that, too. I donât know, either.
Paul Moore : Not quite right. It dates back to Colonial days when Brits were posted to work in Colonies especially India. The journey would be by sea and in ships with no luxury like air conditioning. The cabins on the port side were less exposed to the sun and thus cooler . On the return voyage the reverse would be the case - starboard cabins cooler.
@@robertgriffith8857 thanks Robert đ