Taking your computer to the repair shop? BE VERY AFRAID!
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- čas přidán 28. 05. 2024
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00:00 Introduction
00:25 Study on privacy
01:17 There is no excuse for these shops looking through customer data
02:14 Why their privacy policy take pisses me off
02:40 My "privacy policy"
03:20 How this works - what we do
03:29 Oreo the cat
03:30 Back to how this works - what we do
04:06 I dislike giving people a false sense of security
05:30 Why a privacy policy/legal notice isn't enough
06:10 Privacy can never be gotten back via a lawsuit resulting from a privacy policy violation
06:40 NEVER give unencrypted data to someone you do not fully trust, regardless of privacy policy
07:04 An example of a violation & what I mean when I say you will never be made whole again
09:45 Example of useless privacy policies from Apple
10:16 What were the RATINGS of the stores?
10:38 What happened to Sunny?
10:48 What were the RATINGS of the stores?
12:05 I want to be able to tell people how to know what shops toa void
12:48 My secret shoppers differ from here on a key point.
13:30 The wankery of "controls"
15:40 The "process"
16:30 Codes of ethics
17:23 Procedures and controls
18:01 Ask why info is needed, and communicate it to customers
18:10 Why techs ask for your password
19:24 The cold, hard truth
19:48 More cold hard truth
20:34 What areas was this study done in?
20:44 What are we actually controlling/testing for?
21:13 How is this different from CBC secret shopper on genius bar?
22:24 What I hope you learn from this
22:46 How I would handle my personal repairs
This comes across like Linus Media Group saying "Trust me, bro."
You should have a privacy policy, it's an indication to the customer that you hold yourself and your employees to a standard that respects the customer. It's about establishing trust with your customers, not about giving a customer ground to sue or seek restitution for reputational damage done, and it's absolutely not an iron clad guarantee.
To me it indicates at the least you would be likely to hold an employee accountable for breaching those policies rather than an avenue to shrug your shoulders and move forward. It shows some degree of consideration.
Also, saying the damage can't be undone so laws regarding privacy at repair shops is instantly irrelevant...makes no sense. Murder shouldn't be made illegal then because it can't be undone! Workplace safety laws shouldn't exist, because once injury happens it can't be undone!
No, this is the opposite. I am telling you to never trust me. The entire reason a customer should remove their solid-state drive prior to submitting the device is because they should not trust us or any other repair shop. A privacy policy does nothing to keep an employee from snooping through a computer. It simply makes it easier to hold them accountable later. But your data has already leaked. With a warranty, you can get a full 100% fix to your problem by receiving a replacement device or product. With a privacy policy, you can hold the person accountable, but you are never control-z ing the fact that somebody else saw or distributed your personal data without authorization.
My policy is to explain to customers that they should take the solid-state drive out, or if they don't trust us, do not provide the password and make sure the drive is encrypted. Unfortunately, they now solder the drive to the computer which makes it more difficult for you to remove, but that's not a design decision that I'm happy with. The entire point of this video is that you should not trust somebody with your data if it is that important, and that includes me. But if people actually think a privacy policy is protecting them from something, no it's not.
For 99.9% of businesses out there, they are copying and pasting some generic privacy policy onto their website. And that's that. They are not inspecting what their employees are doing, nor are they even capable of inspecting what their employees are doing on a regular basis. And for the most part, until somebody complains or a news story gets done on them, they don't even care.
If you act like none of us are trustworthy, your actions will result in there being a lower likelihood of us being able to get access to any of your data. The only time you should trust us with your data is when we are telling you to take the drive out of the computer before giving it to us, because that will keep me from being able to get access to your data.
On to your murder analogy. Just because murder is illegal does not mean that if somebody is running towards you at 2am in a dark alley that you should not run away. Self-preservation, as an instinct, is important. You should not rely on the fact that the law makes murder illegal, nor should you rely on the fact that a company has a privacy policy. I tell my customers the truth, which is if they are concerned about their data, what they need to do is watch me physically unscrew their solid-state drive from their computer in front of them and hand it back to them so they can be 100% sure I have zero access to their data. I do not want my customers to be put in a position where they feel like they need to trust me if they don't have to. Nor do I want to give them a false sense of security by pointing to a privacy policy rather than handing them back their physical drive.
To be clear, I do have a privacy policy, but I 100% believe that having a privacy policy is bullshit in contrast to the action of handing a customer back to their drive in front of them and explaining why this is safest. Obviously both would be preferable.
@@camdendexter Are you implying that just because there is a punishment for murder, it makes murder any less wrong? Personally, I could not give two flying fucks about what happens to my murderer after the deed is done.
Trusting someone won't look through your files just because "well, our privacy policy says we won't" is like trusting people won't rob your house because "well, the law says they can't do that".
Reminds me of a statement by a politican in Sweden ''In Sweden, it is forbidden by law to be a criminal'' the statement was very effective...
@@eriksvensson2098 An effect of where lives and how he grew up. Probably true for him and his surroundings, not true for normal people.
i agree, it should be illegal to look through someones files
@@eriksvensson2098 Yeah. If someone is trying to rob you, just tell them they're not legally allowed to do that. Always works.
Just like how the law makes gun free zones and yet people statistically get shot and killed more in these zones! AMAZING and FASCINATING!
Louis has the A+ approach on this. Take out the disk and hand it to your customer.
That doesn’t work for modern computers from Apple with build in storage.
@@bcbock that's the reason why nobody leaves the new Apple Computers to repair, because they are unrepairable.
@@bcbock desolder the nand and give em to customer. big brain!
In a slightly more serious note, password protect the drive.
@@kopazwashere Paul won't mind reballing the NAND, put them all in his queue. RANDOM! 😂
"Something, something, something, KITTY!" That's all I got
I just want to say, your audio setup is always pleasant to listen to. Not overly muffled, not too bright and crisp. You don't yell or talk in a shrill voice. No clipping or gain issues. No mic rattle or resonance. No weird low-frequency grumble as some have. It's just comfortable to listen to.
yeah completely agree. it’s always perfectly balanced
@@SpontaneityJD as all things should be
working on the audio engineering field was worth it after all
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@@rossmanngroup Was about to go to report another scammer/impersonator then I realized this was a real link LOL.
19:40 "I want your money" that's an honest businessman right there, unlike some other companies I could list that pretend to care about their customers or the environment
Wait until he finds out about bank details, proprietary information, and the fine art of blackmail.
One reason not stated, but has been proven in court, is computer repair places (large chains) will scan your documents to report you to the FBI/Police. They receive a "finder fee" in this regard.
There was a case (2017/2018ish) where 1 image was discovered, after 3 data scans and with the use of forensic software, where they proceeded to report the customer. The case was eventually tossed. But why the heck would they need such a deep scan of the computer to fix issues?
Because perverse incentives guarantee negative outcomes for everyone except the government and those who willingly serve the government at the expense of their own integrity. If they see no downside to abusing trust, they will. That's part of the moral character required to be party to these dealings.
It may most likely be linked to accidental findings from data recovery jobs. Louis has topics on these as well, so I won't go further in.
tldr: you have to open some files to see if the data is recovered properly, and if files/names/folders indicative of clear illegal nature, you inform law enforcement.
@Infallible Daystar for data recovery you kinda need the drive unlocked so you can see if it actually worked or not
@@kopazwashere What if, the customer specifically asked the repair shop to "Not look at a specific folder/file"? Can the repair shop dodge "accidental findings" this way?
@@derpysean1072 You can try to sue them in private court for it and hope it works for you to not get into jail. *sarcasm*
You also gotta trust the customer to not leave you stuck with a hard drive full of documented criminal activity
Not just that what about child material so you can report them to the police.
Hunter "Cough!" Biden
@@DespaceMan if the customers name is Hunter the police will raid anyone trying to investigate the contents and give Hunter a book deal
You're fine if that happens
I wouldn't be surprised if we found out that law enforcement train and encourage these repair shops to snoop. My uncle was a drug dealer. He grew a lot of Pot in his basement. He was busted but during the defense investigation it came out that the cable repair man was the one that alerted police. It was then found out that the local PD trained the cable installers on what to look for and report.
When doing data recovery, I've seen things i wish i never did.
like what
I'm still suffering PDST myself, lol
I remember having this same conversation 25 years ago while on my 1st networking job, the client stood there trying to say they needed a policy in place for privacy... ugh, 25 years later and people are still as ignorant as ever about computers, it'll never end.
Hey you're a OG respect bruh.
A Privacy policy helps not against leaks and such stuff, but it gives informed consent of what the company wants to do with your data. A Privacy policy is not there to prohibit already illegal stuff, it is there to inform the user what data they need to use the service, and how they gonna use it.
Been doing this almost as long as you. People really are astonishingly ignorant. No amount of paper prevents someone with power from using that power; it only establishes how it'll be handled after it's already over and the damage is done.
@@JodyBruchon Yes it does not help against data leaks, but it regulates the legal use of the data. It gives rules about the use of your data if you already have trust. You are informed what the other party wants to do with your data.
@@jjjannes then they use your data in any way they want without your consent anyways not giving a fuck about their own policy
the cat is the most major reason I watch your videos
The biggest problem with this is that it's typically a major repair chains are the ones who have problems with the snooping. It was proven a few years back and I think that this is an attempt to smear the right to repair movement. Maybe they only listed the places that had problems and out of a huge area only those ten had problems.
Sounds interesting, where can I read more about this?
Not necessarily, I used to work for a medium sized local company and the techs scanned pretty much any personal machine that hit the bench for porn. They amassed quite a collection including some local notables..
The lead found out about it and after we got him down from the ceiling it was like Genghis Khan rode into town.
And that's how I went from field to shop.
Somebody had backups which still surface from time to time
@@tes-cl3ru the Washington post did an article about data recovery and repair done by Apple and how they had a huge problem with people getting into personal data and leaking it. Louis also had a video about a year ago that features Jessica Jones and her data recovery and repair work and how Apple claims that data recovery is impossible to do but in reality it is very easy to do.
@@M167A1 This would be a prime example of why nobody should hand storage device to repair shops on a silver platter and use local servers as a backup.
@@kopazwashere the operational difficulty here is that the usual user who needs this sort of assistance isn't the most savvy.
This was in a university town and a lot of people are certainly computer literate but few know the slightest thing about encryption or the circumstances of the malfunction prevent them from doing anything really effective to keep someone out who needs administrator access.
Louis - you nailed it. I run a small repair/consulting business. Very often the repair itself is operating system related - so the option of the customer taking their drive doesn't make any sense. The problem is ON THEIR DRIVE. Far too many people are willing to leave personal data UNencrypted with a complete stranger (Isn't that right, Hunter). Over the years, I've established a very good reputation - one where people even trust me to see their private keys. The responsibility is serious & enormous. And people should NEVER trust the technician merely because they're well-dressed & well spoken! I honestly FEAR for those who give that trust where it is clearly undeserved.
Is encryption the same as the WIndows/Android login password? And does encrypted just help the technician to still use the drive without looking into it AS opposed to the user taking home the drive?
Plot twist, some companies actually have a fine print anti-privacy policy stating they will definitely look through and copy your data if for nothing else, "for the lulz" and an article like this may really just highlight that it's important to read the fine print before handing over your computer
lol if it was a real short agreement that just said we can and will do whatever with your stuff, including but not limited to setting your personal pics as wallpapers in the store, sharing vids with friends, etc. there'd still be people so lazy they sign without reading it XD
youre talking about a very important topic, but i cant stop looking at that kitty.
20 years ago when i was pulling computers out of the garbage i found all sorts of messed up stuff on peoples hard drive. I dont want to know whats on peoples hard drives any more to say the least.
Oreo is adorable
I see cat, I click play
The way Oreo hops up and cuddles with u, the way you greeted Oreo. So cute.
This happened years ago as well as it was found to have a flawed test method. What really happened was the machine got scanned with a malware or root kit scanner and that counted as a file being "looked at". Most good techs would try and find the root cause for a driver being disabled, the best explanation other than user error is infection. I do agree with your with video and no piece of paper is going to protect you from any bad actor or any idiot.
It is not a scientific study if data or methodology can not be revisited by others to confirm the outcomes. Smacks of being paid for mis-information......
@@RamonInNZ this is real fake new, people being scared away from small business because we all Pedo's that want to steal the kids picture off your devices you drop in for repair. I really don't have time for that crap. You pay me an hourly rate and most of the time that job takes more time than that hourly rate I charge I just that I can multi task I do three or four jobs at the time that I only charge you for two or three hours not the real five it took me. If I went looking into the files you had it would take me days.
This reminds me of what could happen when you take your car in to get fixed. When most people listened to music on cd's, some mechanics would copy the cd to add to the repair shop's collection.
17:24 proof that cats can teleport :)
Last time I took my MacBook to the Crapple store they wanted my login credentials. I asked why they needed them. The "genius" couldn't give me a good reason so I responded with, "If you're not able to fix this without my login info I'm in the wrong place."
I now use a local Rossmann inspired repair shop. The lady who examined my MacBook for a keyboard repair tested by booting from an external drive and never asked about login info.
Is there a national list of a Rossmann inspired repair shops?
@@salleee Sadly no.
If I ever bring my computer to a repair shop, I'm gonna make the technicians pinky-swear that they don't look through my personal data.
That's gotta be a foolproof system!
You're right. Customers should have their files encrypted. That being said, computer repair shops should have clear policies and enforce them. When I did an internship at a computer repair shop, there were policies and I have to sign showing that I understood them. And I follow them when I did data recovery, upgrades, and ran antivirus.
The only time I think I crossed any line was when I upgraded to the graphics card of the system and tested it using games on the computer. At first, I just wanted to make sure that it ran every game properly. But I may have gone beyond that by playing each for a few minutes. To be fair, I deducted that time from my timesheet, because I really wasn't working and technically we were after hours.
What he's saying is this doesn't prevent someone who is inclined to from actually doing the damage. Once your data is out, it's out. So the best prevention is to encrypt anything touchy or even better, physically remove it or move it elsewhere temporarily. There is nothing that can guarantee a technician will not think they can get away with peeking at a customer's data if nothing actually prevents them from it. Signatures and documentations are not physical, they are words representing a promise, but can in no way enforce this promise.
I also did a internship and later worked at another PC repair shop and neither I or other colleagues ever copied data to keep to ourselves, when people asked for backups or in the case a hdd was about to die we always copied it to a external HDD and most of the time we open 1 or 2 photos/documents to confirm they are ok, after the backup is finished we do the same thing by opening a photo or document and make sure the backup is ok and not corrupted.
In a way this can be a breach of the privacy policy but if we don't do this there's always the chance of getting a bad backup and losing all of the data and thats a no no.
Not me but a friend of mine was doing a internship in a repair shop and while doing a backup they found CP and contacted the police.
Internship at a repair shop sounds like a gigantic waste of time with nothing learned that you could help advance with your skillsets
@@kopazwashere an internship was a requirement for a program I was in. It was also near where I lived and it gave me time to study so I could do A+, Net, Sec+, and MCSA. It was fine. It wasn't my first choice of internships, but everyone applied to the good ones.
A written policy doesn’t mean it’ll stop someone from violating it, but it’s pretty hard to sue for something if the company never claimed they would/wouldn’t do something in the first place.
I broke my phone screen a few months ago and had to give it to a repair shop. The first thing I did after I handed it over (although I should have done it beforehand) was to log out of all my accounts on the phone remotely. Regardless of what someone says on their label, it's always better to take your privacy in your own hands.
Just encrypt your data he says... Louis, most people bringing their PC in for repair doesn't know the difference between the google search engine and the windows start menu. I know I'm a technician. Also yes it's disgusting I've seen coworkers when I worked at Fry's Electronics look at customer nudes like it was a thing to do.
I work at a repair shop and the exact same here.
I've seen apprentices snoop through someone's entire laptop to find photos
And then the repair shop is just gonna say they need your password to work on it anyway. Like U-break-I-fix requires passwords for phones they work on or they helpfully suggest you can just reset it and lose everything if you don't want to hand that over.
Fill your files with poop pictures to fill their initial view. This should discourage them from finding your actual poop pics.
This seems like a hit piece on local stores.
@Eclipse538 Rossmans.
@@Nelo390 Tuche
@Eclipse538 For me, it has been 50/50. One horrible local repair and one great one. I mean so bad they thought my monitor was broken, I only gave them the tower and they plugged in their store's monitor.
The point is you never see the bad one coming.
Sometimes they even change character as people come and go.
That's what I think as well.
Not only does a privacy policy give a false sense of security, it might actually provide a sneaky backdoor for large corporations to actually violate your privacy through the small print.
Kitty shows up at 3:26 for the cat gang.
I won't lie I clicked because of the cat on his lap
Louis, you need to remember that a lot of us spend a lot of time dealing with software over hardware. If a customer encrypts their data, I can't copy it without them giving me what I need to decrypt it (and Windows automatic device encryption is now causing some of my customers to lose data because they didn't realize it was encrypted and when I try to get what I need I get a text "what's a bit locker?") so that's probably not going to help unless they're doing file-based encryption which is beyond the knowledge level of most people who would bring me a PC in the first place.
Shout out to Louis for taking the time to explain the customer's data security to them in an understandable way.
Awe kitty cat!
Louis talking about very serious and frightening matters ... meanwhile the cats "human, pet me more instead of talking human BS" xD
Thx for all the vids :)
@Louis Rossmann I agree with you 99.9% of the time... but you can absolutely remove food colouring from water using baking soda :)
worked in a local repair shop (in EU) to get back in the work life and can honestly say that we worked with the honor system. However any disk that was previously donated or was for any reason removed from the pc was placed into a safe so that sat into a closed walk in closet. They where all labeled from what customer they where if they wanted to leave it at the shop for any repair. Or where placed in a separate tray if they where marked for recycle with the date that they where handed in. The shop had several cases where people changed their mind... so they held onto it for a month. Anyway we have somewhat stricter laws with heavy fines on it here now. Though I worked there before and I never seen anyone of us 4 violate anything i found questionable.
The only time I had to open "My documents" was because a customer weirdly claimed that the operating system would crash when my documents was opened, but the customer was there for that... Surprise surprise it was not the case, but it was a generally dying hard-disk.
I find it surprising that other people have the time, patience or interest to browse these files.
When I was learning almost everyone teached me to open one or two photos/documents when making backup just to be sure it's ok but besides that we don't go snooping around.
@@almaefogo We generally did not do that without asking. The store owner either asked up front, or called them how they wanted them to approach it. The store owner had a preference to have the customer with you. This kinda stops the hassle of "You snooped around", but might request for permission if there was a rush job. Privacy laws etc etc.
Thought picking random documents ... you might catch something juicy by accident. I hope you never got any issues haha
@@Redisia nothing so far while working, I just remembered something a couple years ago a friend asked me to format his laptop and he came by my house and dropped it off, I forgot to ask him if he needed anything backed up and sent him a message after almost an hour he didn't answered me so I just looked at the user folders and they all were empty until the video folder, one single video with around 10min, I opened it to check if it was something important and quickly figured out he didn't need a backup.
It was a video recorded with the laptop webcam of his girlfriend giving him a blowjob.
Kinda of learned my lesson on that one.
@@almaefogo lol was that video intended to be seen by your as a joke or... lol?
@@Redisia I doubt I was supposed to see it, my guess is that he forgot to delete it or maybe thought I was going to look around.
The accessing private files is so true. Recently I had to have my phone's display replaced. I had plenty of private pics in a hidden folder and the display wasn't helping me much to delete anything. I knew they would look through my phone anyway. So I turned off the lock somehow after a lot of tries and gave it to them. They asked for the password. I was like there's nothing on it so it doesn't have a password. They believed me and wiped the phone almost immediately when I went away. That's what I wanted anyway and was quite satisfied. They replaced it within an hour.
Everything you point out here is spot on. The concept - or idea, or notion or assumption or whatever else it can be called - that is labeled 'privacy policy' is a misnomer on its face. After one of the first 'privacy' policies I read many years ago, I began labeling such drivel as an 'anti-privacy policy' because it delineates all the things I was 'allowing them to do with my data - thus violating my privacy and there was nothing I could do about it. And if I didn't like it I could simply stop using their service/software/tool, etc.
I built my first computer as a teen in the 90's, so happy. I've saved so much money knowing how to repair things, never buying a pre-built. Best life skill ever.
That report really isn't surprising, unfortunately.
I recently decided I was going to recertify my A+ that lapsed back in 2016.
When I initially certified in 2008, the course material and the test had an entire chapter emphasizing privacy and ethics. Complete with a couple scenarios that compared "customer confidentiality" with "mandatory reporting"
When I took the A+ course earlier this year, there was almost no emphasis on privacy and security for A+ technicians in the course material.
I worked in a repair shop in Houston for over ten years and anytime someone was nervous about their data we would do exactly want to said, remove the drive and place it in an anti-static bag and hand it back to them. Then tell them that when they come pickup the repair to have extra time for us to replace the drive and test it with them next to us in the showroom to confirm to repair was satisfactory.
Errr.... Louis; I worked this out over 20 years ago and I'll never buy crApple or just go offline every-so-often.
Try it. It's sooooo refreshing.....
In the audio driver case, it may have been a necessity to open up a certain folder and try playing a song or opening up the browser and play a video to make sure audio driver has been successfully reactivated. In the browser case, it would make perfect sense to clear the browsing history as well after playing a video or music track off of CZcams, such as Enrique Iglesias. I wouldn't want anyone to know about my guilty pleasure😁
'Cause the way that we touch is something that we can't deny, and the way that you move, oh it makes me feel alive.
When I saw your comments in the chat, I kinda expected a video lol. Happy to see it.
A different angle on giving them your data is that if it's your only copy, it might get damaged or erased and you can't hold them liable. So another reason to not give it to them (and you should always have a backup anyway because you never know when your storage device is going to totally fail.)
Saying a store ‘has a policy’ doesn’t do much but at least makes me think they have thought about the issue but, as you say, it is no protection against bad actors ... meanwhile a solid reminder to never buy machines you can’t protect or remove your stuff from.
Having the drive encrypted(which can be done by any OS or by third party software) and not giving the password/pin is more than good enough. No one will care enough to clone and brute force the encryption on the drive of a random customer, especially if the repair shop has a lot of traffic. Also, if you really care about privacy, just make a backup/clone of the drive, reset it, then restore it after the repair. One repair shop I was to had a message that encourages the customers to wipe their devices before handing them in for repair.
Not getting a machine *just* for this reason is plain dumb.
@@LAndrewsChannel ... so how do you go about that if the device doesn’t boot and the memory chips are soldered on the motherboard?
@@CTCTraining1 ... you encrypt the device before that happens? Apple, that is notorious for soldering the flash chips, prompts you to encrypt the drive when first booting a Mac and these days Windows does as well as far as I know. They suggest you do that for a bunch of reason, including this one. If you don't, then you are at the mercy of the one who will repair your device, but it's on you for not taking proper precaution when buying such a device.
Also, smartphones are a thing and I've yet to see one without soldered flash chips and they usually contain more about a person than any other device of that person.
@@LAndrewsChannel .. agreed, encryption is more prevalent, unfortunately most of the folk who I come across are not that clued in (or interested in) understanding the implications of choices they made during setup and only come to light as /when things break. I count myself lucky if I can persuade them to leave enabled some form of security.
@@CTCTraining1 Well yes. Same people will also give the pin/password to their device to the receptionist when leaving their phone for a battery replacement, especially if it is in an official store... I guess the problem lies with the people, rather than the devices most of the time...
There are some cases in which a repair store may need access to your operating system. In that experiment was an audio driver issue, which is a good example of a situation in which that would need to happen. And like Louis mentioned, if you don't let them access your OS, you run the risk of things not working properly. For that reason in particular, many manufacturers, and (I would assume) some repair shops won't even give you the option of not handing the password over.
Obviously, the best thing to do is encrypt the drive or not give them the drive at all where possible. However, if you're unable to do that, remove any sensitive data off the drive and back it up somewhere (No, the device does not need to be working to do this. You can plug it into another device directly or with a USB adapter). Then you need to run a file shredder to ensure there are no recoverable traces of the files on the drive. Another thing is to ensure that all your password/autofill data is *not* stored in your browser for all to see, and instead deleted or stored safely in an encrypted password manager behind a separate, strong password.
As always, I learned something. Thank you for frightening me even more.
6:09 I know this is off topic and I see your point, but if you want to remove the colouring from the water, maybe you can just heat up the whole thing and take the condensation?
But yeah, the point still stands and it's a solid one
Yeah I thought the same thing. Recovering food coloring is child's play compared to recovering your privacy
I am afraid
There is nothing to fear but fear itself. And COVID
@@rossmanngroup and an angry Clinton.
@@rossmanngroup And NYC rent rates.
You just described the entire issue with bloated bureaucratic agencies and people who believe they are can solve every problem by 100 documents that nobody reads.
Good video, listening to the whole thing. Also ended up watching the cat wanting cuddles. So cute
If I am not paying a shop by the hour, I don't care if they see the nudies. I keep my data on an external drive.
When I did IT work, I never saw a computer that did not have porn on it. Encrypt, or separate disk.
I think your approach is the best option in this situation Louis. Just remove the clients drive and give it to them before starting any work on their device👍🏻
Best to backup important data to an external drive and factory-reset to wipe the main-drive before handing the device to repair shop. Thankfully, one of my Mom's office friends do computer repairs.
One other thing you can do is keep sensitive data on secondary storage (like a thumb drive). Then you can take it out before you bring it in for repair.
catch 22: your thumb drive is fk'd, you have no backup because you are a moron.
square 1.
Yes but not a thumb drive, your data is not safe on them. Just use an external drive.
Any time I do a repair where there is a complaint of odd computer activity or a virus removal, I ALWAYS check the local data and user documents for odd files to see if there is a hidden source of reinfection. I don't go opening things to snoop.
"I wasn't peeping in their window, I was just checking if their blinds were open."
Creeper.
Why do YOU do that when a proper virus scanner would be far faster and more effective at finding anything? You sound incredibly creepy.
@@d76458 Exactly.
@@d76458 Virus scanners don't pick up everything. Found a couple of odd files that they miss and had to get rid of them.
To answer the question of "which repair shops did they go to": They used the closest repair shop to their campus, or the most convenient ones to get to. If they didn't consider it important enough to mention in their paper, they didn't consider it a meaningful distinction whatsoever and just went with the lowest effort option.
That's just how academic papers are written, every detail has to be noted so someone else can get the same results or know why. If it wasn't mentioned, then it was either embarrassing to whomever wrote the paper or they thought it was so unimportant to not be worth mentioning.
Like how the cats were mad at stayed away from you when you first moved and now he is attached to you again no matter how much you were moving
I’ve never heard the bit about bubble
Wrapping the memory that’s pretty simple and useful
Trust me bro privacy policy 😂
But yeah, I totally agree. If you're worried about your private data then a policy isn't going to help you keep it protected. The legal recourse is nice I guess, but definitely not completely adequate. Nothing can be completely adequate in this circumstance.
Speaking of which, this study feels inadequate because they left out the data you mentioned as well as a detailed explanation of the test parameters they were evaluating like you mentioned. This study could have been good, but it feels like they just wasted their time because we can't draw any reasonable conclusions beyond your data not being safe especially if you're female.
tbh I normally run Anti-viruses and Malware scans on all computers in for repair, I let the customer know this. I would love to read the details on the study. Where they just checking the folders for data (or lack off) or looking for stuff.
Man thats a comfy looking armchair... and the cat ... boy what a lovely setup ~
im glad you addressed that why people ask you "why you need my password". The people asking those have obviously never done proper repair of a laptop
Yes, another research paper without data that can be independently verified. Definitely trustworthy. 5 stars.
This! If you can't verify the sources I was taught it is not to be considered a "reputable" publication.
His argument is based on principal and ability. The research paper itself means very little. Anyone who has so much as set up a PIN for their desktop knows that snooping is entirely possible. Do you need a cited and independently verified case study to come to a conclusion on anything? If the capability exists, there is a risk. I don't need data to tell me that the nerd at the Genius Bar is likely looking through girls' camera rolls when he's just supposed to be replacing the screen.
You are ultimately responsible for your own data. Do you leave your wallet, stuffed with cash, in your car when you give it to a mechanic? Odds are he won't steal your cash, but he 100% could.
The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
Do you have the name of the paper or a link to it?
@@llllllblodllllll The paper is linked in the video description.
While reading the text it makes me very uncomfortable. I even wonder if it is not AI generated. It is disjointed and does not appear to have been through a review.
e.g. TABLE 1. RECORDED PRIVACY VIOLATIONS. EACH SYMBOL
REPRESENTS VIOLATIONS IN A UNIQUE EXPERIMENT.
Can you make sense of it? The text alludes to counts but the table does not simplify the text. It may as well not exist.
A reviewer, which I suppose is me :-), could ask "What is this table supposed to mean?" then usually the authors would go back and clarify it before publication.
@@johncarlaw8633 Sorry about the length. I cut it down a few times.
I completely agree. This is not a serious study.
There is no indication on what the symbols mean nor any real description or explanation of the aggregated data.
They don't define the terms they use nor describe their processes adaquitely.
For example, they don't mention putting passwords anywhere in the files beyond the cryptocurrency credentials. They claim that a technition copied a password-containing file to an external device.
"We note that while our logs did not provide any evidence of the theft of financial data, the technicians may have copied it using other means (i.e., copied to a paper)."
So what passwords are they talking about?
And they may have copied it using a pen and paper! Are you joking?
There contradictions and speculative statements throughout.
Another example, they initially state that they needed a large number of samples to establish "regularity", then conclude with how their study demonstrated that "snooping of customers' data was a regular occurrence", using 12 samples.
The explicitely made no attempt to identify the internal processes that produced their findings because, "disclosing the study to technicians who may have committed privacy violations may lead to psychological and social harms including feeling ashamed, a fear of social stigma, and guilt."
So did they violate privacy?
We don't know, they may have.
Of the survey repondents, 73% said they were not aware of some diagnostic utility that would log a technitions actions. Yet 93% of that same group "reported that the solution was effective or very effective at preventing a potential privacy breach".
How in the world would they know when they had never even heard of it before, and how could it possibly prevent anything.
This paper is a joke, it's practically worthless. And the suggested improvements are the opinions of people who rated themselves intermediate in terms of proficiency (out of 3) answering questions they should never have been asked to begin with.
Garbage in, garbage out.
Rubbish in, rubbish out.
Nice cat.
What Louis said sounds like Linus did about LTT's backpack warrontee TBH.
And I stand by both of them.
This is probably the most concise way to explain this to a layman
Big sad I didn't get to send my iPad into y'all to fix the charging port before everything went down, gonna be real hard to find another repair shop I trusted as much as yours. 😢
Think he still does mail-in, it's just that the New York shop ain't who you're sending it to.
I agree with you man, its always up to the asset holder to ensure security of their securities and since certain items are irreplaceable as such is personal docs its pretty much common sense you protect those the most and that insurance cannot ever restore that asset.
"Wankery" - Very much used in the correct British context - Bravo!
I do my best not to look at any personal info because I don't want to know. As soon as you learn stuff about people, you never see them the same ever again. It destroys MY image of the people I work for to see their personal lives.
Get ready to hear from the chemists for that food coloring analogy. Lol
even with cheating on my high school chemistry regents exams so that I could graduate, I got a 58 out of 100 and flunked out of college because I could not pass freshman chemistry :-(
I do find it reasonable to have some kind of procedure. Where either there is always some kind of record when an employee has access to private data (like a CCTV camera or something else that is more clever). That you can audit for weird behaviour. I also think requiring at least 2 people to always be in a room where private data is stored could be useful.
This room could be closed down with limited monitored internet access and requirements to log whatever is brought into and out of the room.
Having procedures and training that outlines what is private data and how to act with private data and encouraging employees to report suspicious behaviour or risk losing their job could be reasonable.
I say this because I deal with similar bullshit when it comes to security certifications in the software industry. I hate it. With certain clients my computer is locked down to such an extent that I can barely use my development tools and have a dramatically reduced productivity. We still get paid though.
And to be clear we all have to do this bullshit because Brenda in accounting entered her password in a suspicious email telling her she won the lottery. And you can bet she will do it again even with the policies in place.
I would argue there is policies and procedures you could implement (and perhaps charge extra for with particularly demanding clients) that will mitigate the risk of leaking private data.
To me these things makes sense if you think of yourself as a business owner that is a good actor but lacks insight (or just lacking common sense) that wants a fool proof and auditable process (thus provable) to prevent bad actors . Like say the genius bars. This also protects the company from responsibility when things do happen. But I agree from a clients point of view it is nonsensical without any form of trust.
I do agree with your overall point that the best thing you can do as a client is to only deal with trustworthy shops.
I do not find it reasonable or useful to expect smaller repair shops to implement things like this.
This research paper seems to be shitty and I am unsure anyone even wants what it asks for.
Yeah, your two people in a room thing is completely pointless. None of what you have described would make a difference actually. I agree with consistent, good, auditable processes but they need to be easy to implement and follow, and potentially scalable otherwise their cost will far outweigh their benefits.
To be clear, I'm referring to snoops, not leakers when it comes to the ineffectiveness of your proposed strategies. For the life of me, I don't understand leakers. Why post it online? That's like bragging you stole your neighbor's Xbox. I don't like snoops but at least that motivation is obvious, right?
"its like puting food dye on water, you cant get it out"
Nigel Braun: hold my bromine
Great video Louis!
I do work for people locally on their computers, (small town area) not board level repair though 'yet', but soon. I'm like you, I could care less what someone has on their computer, none of my business, but the customer has to be somewhat trusting unfortunately. Hope things are going well for you in your new location, HAS to be better than NY!
I've been doing computer work for 30 years. I avoid looking at anything. You can't unsee some of that stuff.
Even if the ticket says "recover deleted wedding pictures", I'm not looking at the pictures, just filenames. I don't want to find out you have honeymoon pictures featuring a goat mixed in with the rest.
Might be problematic if your job is data recovery and one of the files are corrupted, if you aren't any files whatsoever.
Which is why people need to back their shit up.
You can say all day long you don't look at customer data, but in my experience you end up seeing some of it anyways, completely unintentionally even. It's called thumbnail images.
You go to backup a customer's data, and the operating system itself generates thumbnails, which are miniature images of the files you're looking to back up for the customer.
So what do you do when you see 117 thumbnail images of barely dressed young girls when your customer is a grade school teacher?
Our company had to have that very exact discussion, with the boss even, but WHILE the backup was in process, the customer called back in basically saying they changed their mind and declined the data backup.
That was about the most F'ed up day I ever worked in tech, because due to our own privacy policies, we had to basically ignore the fact we saw the inappropriate thumbnails we saw.
I was disgusted with the whole situation, but there wasn't anything we could do anyways. The images weren't nude, but they weren't far from it either.
We had to dismiss this obvious pervert because we weren't supposed to see the files in the first place. Thank you automatic thumbnails for messing our heads up.
Imagine the same situation, but where the thumbnails demonstrate someone drugging and raping people, and the person who sent the device in runs a nonprofit that "helps" people with down syndrome.
Imagine the photos after the drugging and raping of each individual include discrete photos of the state IDs of the people he did it to, with clear thumbnails.
Imagine those people in the IDs show up in a missing persons database, within miles of the mail-in address the customer put on their check in sheet.
Just imagination though. Pure imagination.
These are moral quandaries. If you work in this business long enough,, you will be tested. Privacy policy or not. Letters on paper you copied and pasted from some website template will not help you sleep at night, when you make the wrong decision. And certainly won't pay for your therapy afterwards.
What would you do?
What would you be able to **live** with?
Which decision would you be able to explain to your grandkids without feeling shame halfway through the conversation?
These are the types of questions you should be ready to answer; honestly answer, if you pursue this as a career.
@@rossmanngroup FBI is deserved because the person is a s*it criminal who deliberately leaves their track, hands the track on a silver platter to someone who would most likely side with the law enforcement, otherwise that person would most likely end up as co-conspirator for not informing (and ignoring the crime, especially if it's to this degree)
The privacy policy should cover cases like data recovery though.
On the side note,
You'd think a smart criminal who committed that many crimes who hasn't been caught by the bro would do intelligent things, like backing their data.
There are two schools of thought here. The problem that we are trying to solve for, is how to deal with the data recovery where there is physical media damage, where many of your recovery attempts will produce garbled junk. In such a scenario, there are two solutions.
Behind door number one is, you open one or two of the files with each recovery attempt until you get something that resembles usable files. Once you have inspected one or two files and see the your process is actually working, you call the customer and have them inspect the rest, and they only pay the fee if the files are recovered to their satisfaction. The upside here is that your customers does not get spammed with 20 phone calls for each attempt you make, losing confidence in you and becoming more aggravated with you with each phone call you make with a failed recovery, because the first five or 10 times you attend to recovery everything you get will be corrupt due to media damage. You cannot call your customer 10 or 20 times and ask them to inspect the data 10 or 20 different times because eventually they will become aggravated and pissed off that you are wasting so much of their time.
Behind door number two, the other school of thought is that that is the only way to do it because at no time should you ever inspect anything that you recovered. Who cares if you wind up making 50 phone calls to your customer for the 50 different attempts you made to recover data from media that was physically damaged, it's a worthwhile compromise to ensure that you are never the one looking at the data.
The latter approach gives the customer way more privacy. However, the latter approach substantially pisses off the customer, results in less five star reviews, and more one star reviews, ensuring that the privacy focused business shows up lower in search rankings.
There's a lot to think about that I don't think people wrap their head around before getting into this business
@@rossmanngroup Wait, you bothered calling the customers to come in and inspect the data before performing recovery?
Down my way in the south, people ain't got time to drive 20-40 miles to inspect every other filename, it was either an all or nothing choice at dropoff.
We just had a check in the box for our customers to declare whether they wanted their data salvaged or not, with appropriate labor charge applied of course if they wanted data recovered.
@@southernflatland data recovery (if the data actually matters to the owner), should ideally be a hands-on process. It's the customer's fault for being lazy and dropping their machine to someone else to figure out, then coming back to pick it up later.
Granted, queues exist, but at least when time comes to do the recovery, customer would handle the verification steps in real time. No calling, no driving.
But the real solution goes further upstream.
*Don't store important files on a laptop*
Excellent video sir!!!!
It amazes me at the amount of wisdom coming from such a niche profession.
Also, that is one happy sandwich cookie.
Mom's laptop hinge broke (Asus) and I told her I'll pull the drives and go buy a new one, get whatever shiny new one you like and I'll get all your stuff back on it :) Son's Repair Shop is the best lol.
I recently cloned a HDD to an SSD for my Grandma. If I'm not available for tech support, then she calls my brother since he's pretty tech savvy. Either way, she knows that "Grandsons' Repair Squad" is the best!
Be very afraid of a mad Mr Clinton
So Wise , Thank You . Another fine video discussing an important subject . Also a Fine Cat
A few points:
1. Louis presents himself as a stand up guy, and I believe he would not violate privacy, but not every repair shop has access to a huge audience and years of videos that seem genuine. Part of his mission is to spread the knowledge for others to open repair shops, and I feel that a basic privacy policy would be beneficial from a business standpoint for people looking to run a repair shop. 20 years of every tech co. having one has trained people to expect one, even if they are meaningless.
2. The comparison to a car insurance law is inept, if I had perfect 1986.5 Toyota Supera with low miles and it was totaled, even if I got the value from insurance/the law, I still don't have my car, and funding one that is similar will be incredibly difficult. It is easier to replace a commodity item such as a brand new dodge ram, but plenty of gear heads have cars that would give embarrassing privacy leaks a serious run in a head to head matchup. Privacy has an emotional element attached, any collector's item can carry a similar emotional element.
3. Based on the overview of the article, it seems like an exploration piece, this happens all the time in academic study, find an area for improvement and now further research can look towards procedures and controls. Ultimately, the OS designers could create system wide controls and guest accounts that have access to some areas of the system (samsung phones have a guest account with limited access to apps and data for example), but Apple has no incentive to build this feature and make it easier for consumers to trust 3rd party repair. Windows may be a better contender for something like this, but many PCs can have the hdd removed, so probably too much work for a software related problem.
In the end, I think Louis should have a privacy policy as I assume some of his business could access customer data. Even a simple paragraph could work: "We may require access to software and data on your device to complete the repair. We take your privacy seriously and employees are trained to respect privacy when such access is required. While we do everything in our power to protect your privacy, if you would like to discuss the options we can accommodate to offer a full privacy guarantee, please click here."
For real though, even a password protected system is pretty trivial to bypass with physical access, most people don't have super strong passwords (been watching defcon talks lately and it seems pretty easy to guess a password using modern software and a full copy of a hard driv).
Bottom line is if you need privacy, then keep it in your head.
The small jokes in the videos really shows that the stress is really off of Louis after the audit was done
Also Louis, the difference between their scientific study and your "unscientific" videos is who put their results into a table. Even if your methods were slightly different in each video, you call those "confounding variables" and move on.
He hasn't read enough bullshit studies to figure out if something is deliberately written as a resume pad by authors, or a genuine work of research that deserves his time.
Either that, or he enjoys roasting people that wrote these studies.
What they need are Asexual technicians, rather than sexual people.
I used to work in a shop that did laptop repairs.
One of our biggest contracts was with the (my region's version of) state high schools.
We got a lot of broken screens, broken hinges, disgusting keyboards, you know the drill...
Our go-to method of pre-repair, and post-repair testing was to use an Ubuntu LiveCD USB.
We never touched the Windows installation.
If the reported fault was something that could be a Windows issue, and we tested the feature to be okay in Ubuntu, like sound, wifi, etc, we returned it as No Fault Found, and the school IT department could reimage it.
Also, the majority of the laptops were Lenovo Latitude. It's so great being able to buy spare parts either from first party or third party suppliers at reasonable costs.
An excellent policy in your business and an excellent video as well!
So the solution is to ask a repair person to let you stand by them as they do the repair?
If I could get my stuff in your direct hands then to be honest I would trust you as I've been able to make a judgement on that based on your content. But you are an outlier in that we know can trust you personally.
I have a few broken hard drives I w ant to extract data from but have not done so for this very reason. There is sensitive company info including banking info and proprietary software on those drives and I just can't put them in the hands of some random stranger with the skills to access the files. In fact, not I'm not even sure I'm legally allowed to do so according to company rules.
Would be nice if there was some special service where the customer could keep chain of possession and be present while the technician worked on my drives.
The solution is for the data to be encrypted, or to be removed from the device if the storage is modular prior to the repair. I'm not asking you to trust anybody and that includes me!
It isn't even about trust so much as it is about protection. If it's on camera that the moment you dropped your device off I handed you the drive with your data, you would never be able to make a claim that I looked through, snooped, or leaked your data. It is not just for your protection, it is for mine as well!
If this is somebody's concern, I want to remove myself as an authority from it entirely. I should have no domain over your data
@@rossmanngroup but if his drive broke down with non-encrypted data at the time of drive failure he can't retroactively encrypt it and the only way to get the data back is to give the drive to a 3rd party that can do it... so both options are impossible in that case (encryption & not giving it to 3rd party)
@@rossmanngroup But my two external hard disks that died can't be encrypted as they aren't responsive any more.
Or is there a way to encrypt a drive that I can only access 5% of the files on and that mostly crashes my pc when I try?
Those two drives are WD 1TB external drives.
I have another internal that died but that is SSD so no hope there.
If I can encrypt my dead drives is it safe to hand them over to a rando?
@@Ljosi Exactly. As I see it, based on Louis's advice, my only option is to stand by the repair person while they do the work.
But even then, how would I know if they are making copies or not?
@@NR-rv8rz This is a lesson to you in the future, if your data is that sensitive and you are possibly legally obligated to keep it safe then BACKUPS and ENCRYPTION should be standard procedure.
Nothing can be done retroactively and you are up shit creek without a paddle because at the end of the day the only way you are getting that data is by trusting someone to do the repair.
If it's THAT important to retrieve the data then it's time to get lawyers involved write up contracts and have the repair people sign it to ensure they also now have liability and can be sued if they do anything untoward with the data. Expensive, but possible. Otherwise, like I said, shit creek without a paddle and you should accept responsibility for allowing an unencrypted drive without a backup to hold important information on it.
Great video with an important point
Everything you talked about here is common sense to me. But the more people i talk to about securing data and privacy has showed me that when it comes to common sense, a lot of people really do not more education on it. Great video.
Why this take is so similar to LMG take on warranties?
It's only similar if you completely misconstrue the arguments. My argument is that privacy policies are a trust me bro and that you should not trust them at all, rather, encrypt your information or decline to provide the hard drive to the service center so that trust is removed from the equation altogether.
His arguments on warranty is that he could just screw you over and start a new company so you might as well trust him.
My argument is that even with a privacy policy this is trust me bro so you should NOT trust me. You should watch as I open your computer in front of you, unplug your solid state drive from your computer, and hand it back to you
Every customer I hand a hard drive or solid state drive back to in a sealed envelope, is a customer I am explicitly telling, _"do not trust me. Do not put yourself in a situation or position where you have to trust me. Trust yourself."_
When your data is not in my possession, there is nothing for you to trust.
It's similar because Linus's take on warranties was completely bad faith to try and avoid offering a proper warranty. "I could screw you over and start a new company so there's no point to having a warranty" was always a bad argument from Linus. His entire company runs on reputation. If he screwed everyone over and started a new company, who's going to support the new company? Nobody. He can't just start over with new channels and expect everyone to keep watching the guy who screwed everyone over on backpack warranties. It was always an empty threat, he knew it, most of us hearing it knew it, it was just crap to try and wiggle out of offer a proper warranty.
Yeah, Linus could take the moment and run at any moment. Louis could take customer's laptops and run at any moment. Gamers Nexus pretty openly shamed Linus about the warranty situation, but Steve could wake up tomorrow and decide to shut down the company and leave the 7 year retroactive warranties useless. But they're probably not going to because they want to continue to run their businesses.
With a data privacy policy, Louis is right, it's definitely "trust me bro" even if there's a policy. And unlike someone shutting down their entire company to avoid warranties on backpacks, some random employee looking through a female customer's files for nudes or whatever is going to be way less noticeable. You aren't going to know that it happened unless they go full idiot and post it on social media. So if you can avoid trusting them by removing the drive(s) with your data, do it. (BTW, thanks Apple for soldering SSDs to the motherboard so they can't be removed)
It is not at all.
Rossmann: a privacy policy (a pinky swear) doesn't stop me from doing illegal shit without your knowledge
LMG: he didn't want to give you make the "trust me bro" promise legal
One is about not giving legal warranties, the other is about saying that illegal shit already is illegal (and a pinky-swear doesn't change anything).
@@parametr No, but when evidence of said wrongdoing is found, you can point to the policy as a clear evidence of outright malicious intent or abject negligence.
Or to put in another way: it's the difference between murder and an accident
@@rossmanngroup I don't think this is accurate. Even a written warranty has a huge component of "trust me bro." How many broken MacBooks have you fixed that were ostensibly covered by Apple's warranty but were refused service or blamed for the damage by the "Geniuses"? I really doubt that it's 0.
I feel whats the saddest part of it all is the people who will be inclined to read and believe that article will be the same people who use a stock android phone and believe their data is safe on their phone, not knowing everything that is collected.
Only a thought that might increase security or customer trust, but would by no means be fault proof.
- A "smart" case, that records if and when it's opened
- The customers device is placed in the case in front of their eyes
- The case remains closed, until the technician is ready to work on it
- The opening and closing of the case and the work on the device is continuesly recorded on camera
- Camera footage and timestamps and case timestamps are provided to the customer
This won't prevent a bad company, that can delete timestamps in the case at will, but deter rogue employees. Especially in bigger companies, when the case might be send between locations.
It's going alright hope your day is lovely too!!!
You made my dog freak out at 3:00 in the morning when you tapped on your mic, it made me laugh, I love your videos!