Morley and Gaugemaster model railway controllers compared. How a controller works.
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- čas přidán 27. 07. 2024
- An in depth look at analogue DC controllers focusing on the Gaugemaster model D and the Morley Vector Zero 2. Also how these model train controllers work. We try to find out why the GM produces such good slow speed control. I am not a technician, findings and views are my own. This is a long video with many technical discussions hopefully put in simple terms.
19thApril Hi again, I am pleased to say that today I have adapted the Morley to perform just as well as the Gaugemaster. This is done at the cost of maximum speed (just a little) as the output was higher. I am still finalizing components and then will consider making a 'how to video' but experience and understanding in transistor isolation, component identification and a means of testing capacitors to get a balanced pair will be essential.
Update re the GM, I spoke with the engineer who asked me to bring my controller in, he fixed the hum while I waited :) what great and open customer service.
I've removed ref to the disagreement Morley had with me as I think time has moved on and it's in the past now.
Final update: After extensive testing the adapted Morley is now my controller of choice. Having two independent transformers means no interference with each track channel. #modelrailways #modelrailroad #modeltrains - Věda a technologie
Just came across this video, very useful in explaining the way the controllers operate. Your oscilloscope was a good way of showing how the slow speed running with the gaugemaster D is obtained. I recently bought one of these and the slow speed running with a variety of DC locos has the edge on the H&M controllers I was using before. You put a very thorough technical case together about these controllers which is very helpful.
Many thanks indeed, since this video I have modified the Morley to get almost as good control but with all the benefits of the built in CDU and plug in walk about handsets. You can find out what I did here, but I have now fitted 33uF capacitors in place of the suggested 100uF ones
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited I was interested that the Gaugemaster D has a not totally rectified "pulse wave", I had thought it would be purely voltage controlled DC. That explains why locos creep with a slight jerky movement at very slow speed. I'd hoped for just "vanilla" DC to test the slow running of kit built and r-t-r locos, however in practice the D does the job very well on the layout.
Have you ever done a test on the gaugemaster combi? I've got one of those and assumed the D was effectively 2 combis together, but the combi may have a different internal design.
Hi again, The D does have a full 100Hz wave form, only shaping is due to filters and transistor, the Combi is as you suspect. Thanks for the interests :)
Hi Mike ,Just like to say Thank You for a very informative video .I know nothing about wave forms or the such ,and i found this really interesting .
You are very welcome, so glad to help. There are a couple of updates since then
Thanks Mike, excellent background there, it's really helpful for folks to understand this, I think with DCC it's getting very plug and play (nowt wrong with that!) but it's important to get some of the theory, behind why we do what we do.
Many thanks Paul, so glad it was helpful :)
Thanks for your video....very well explained and presented. Most informative!!
Glad it was helpful!
So its virtually hum and smoothness or no hum with slight hesitation &
I suppose up to what you need and slow speed control I suppose .. I think the hum i could live with the hum as not all locos that are not so close to you it wouldnt be so bad.
Anyhoo thanks again for the awesome video's and technical info you put out for us all to watch. We all learn something new every time we watch stuff from the guru's of wealth of knowledge.
So Cheers from John in Australia.😎😎😎😎
Many thanks indeed John! Not all motors will hum, like you say if they are not that close you won't hear it. You might enjoy my building a controller from scratch series as well then? Kind regards Mike
Thank you Mike for this video, like Barrie Davies I run Gaugemaster hand held units but mine are all feedback, they work stunningly well with all my Hornby Dublo / Wrenn locos. Richard.
Hi Richard, good to hear from you again and thanks for the nice comments
Thank you Mike, Really found this informative and helpful cheers fella
Hi Paul, many thanks. If you haver time you may be interested in the follow up where I make a simple change to the Morley which brings it's control abilities into line with the GM one, as well as solving the coreless motor noise issue and reducing controller operating heat.
Very interesting! Thanks for that wonderful explanation/demonstration...
Thanks Douglas I'm so glad you enjoyed it
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited The enjoyment was being able to understand the concepts... and that TINY oscilloscope really is amazing! Thanks again.
Just ordered Gaugemaster on the strength of your research. Many thanks
Good luck, am sure it will be good
Dear Mike, thank you very much for your video. You done very good work, explanation and testing, nobody except you do such a useful things. Keep going. Now I see how Gaugemaster work and see voltage. It became with 20 mv, than jump to 300 mv and only than could be smoothly regulated. Well, I would like to say, I expected long handle range at least from 20 mv but that is not possible here until 300 mv. For coreless we need stable work range at least 30-50 mv. Also problem with handle, that is too small, too short work range between 0.3-2 v, even if potentiometer-transistor could, we do not have instrument for hand. Anyway I see that this controller is really one of the top, because it works from 300 mv and does it job well. It is not easy to find thing with such strong start.
Seems it works like halfwave which give your motor unvelievable torque for start and delete "sticky" moments of rotor. I wish to see you compair the differense of this technologies.
Now I make my own chart for best controllers "without borders" for coreless motors:
- Titan 825 (200 mv)
- Gaugemaster (transistor)
- Teichmann Fahrregler (if you write me email I can send circuit)
- Heisswolf 300, 1000, 2000
- Trix 5599 (+ potentiometer Vishay depending on start voltage)
Guess Gauge, Teichmann and Heisswolf would be the best. No idea how work Titan, but normal halfwave models use standard brush with halfwave components. Very interesting you opinion of this controllers.
Thanks I'm so glad you found this helpful. I don't know those other controllers so can't comment on how they work. I assume you know how half wave works? No real place these days with modern motors due heat and vibration. I don't personally advocate it but have you explored high frequency pulse width modulation for coreless control? Something 10khz and up provides good control. However limit your peak to peak voltage to about 9 volts for safety and control.
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited there are some german sources which describe simple halfwave idea and contain some circuit diagram of Titan or Fleischmann controller with it. I'm not sure if it is safety for standard motor or not. The one thing I could tell that halfwave usually works only with small range for small speed, after as usual controller. The only one controller with extended halfwave was Trix in blue case.
However I would like you to see Teichmann controller circuit diagramm, which can send you by email, it was custom made by small quantity bu request. I'm not sure anybody else could tell idea with great experiense as you is it worth or not.
You really are too kind 😇 I'd be happy to take a look. mru_admin@insussex.plus.com in the meantime have you seen this before? www.scottpages.net/ReviewOfControllers.html
Fantastic explanation.
Glad it was helpful! Thanks Tim
Thanks for a great scientific test of your controllers. It saved me a lot of money too, since I was planning to get a Morley controller. Now I'll stick to my GM DS and Hornby HM2000 (and GM feedback for some old locos).
/Anders
(I hope you get hold of a good PWM controller one day, so you'll be able to show us how good or bad such a contraption would be in comparison to these controllers)
Oh Anders, PWM no way ;) well maybe a high frequency one with stepped voltage. By the way don't give up on the Morley just yet, I am hot on the heels of a modification to bring it inline :) Thanks as ever for the great comments. Mike
czcams.com/video/adtCCWrfEA0/video.html
Very interesting Mike. It occurs to me to wonder which would be better to run DCC equipped loco's, something I am considering.
Thanks, you mean dcc via analogue controller?
Yep. I run DCC sound equipped loco's on either a dedicated Digitrax DCC controller, or sometimes on ordinary analogue controllers - on which they work OK, sound and all in most cases. It's a must for mixed Analogue/digital control, or for those starting to dip their toes into digital. However, I am wondering if using, say, a H & M Duette, for example (or even the Gaugemaster with it's rough output), is going to blow up the chip. Maybe it's safer with something that outputs pure DC, like the Morley. BTW - where did you get that great mini oscilloscope, It's FAB!😃
@@chrisvaughan159 I never knew that was possible. Given dcc takes AC I can't see the DC wave form being an issue, the chip will just rectify the same. The scope came off eBay as I recall, I can try and find the link?
Fantastic video, thank you 👍
You are most welcome
Small point for accuracy: UK mains voltage is 230v RMS, not peak. Peak voltage is ~325v.
Yes you are quite right, I messed that bit up. Thanks for the correction.
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited No worries, enjoyed the video, nice comparison.
Very interesting video. Thanks for sharing. It has been so long since I've actually run a model railway - I was using H&M and Hornby back then.
I'm starting to collect new locos and stock prior to resuming the hobby so need to make a decision on DCC or not. Will have to investigate. I'm actually an engineer by trade (now manager or a technical team so no longer hands-on), but don't have any of the kit I used to have available at work any more. Love that mini oscilloscope btw!
Hi Robert, thanks very much. Yes that mini scope is really helpful. A big choice ahead for you then. I'm dedicated to analogue but do understand the fun of dcc.
Great Descriptive Video :)
Thank you mate
Really interesting and informative.
I'm running almost exclusively older X.04 engines so the Morley would be my choice.
Yep its very good but so would the GM be :)
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited appart from the motor hum. Which I don't want.
I don't need the super slow crawl on my layout and as you say, the controller extensions are a real bonus, so the Morley is still the option of choice. :)
Having bought a Gaugemaster for LGB, 20v 5a I’m really pleased with the slow speed control and the wide range of fine adjustment possible👍. It also comes with a cooling fan. Not cheap but bomb-proof.
Sounds amazing
Excellent video , I only wish you had made it a year ago . I too, like all the features you mention about the Morley , but I
was a little disappointed with the smooth starting ability , especially older Ringfield motors . As for not being a
technician ; well you could fool me . Regards , Paddy Owen .
Hi Paddy. Thanks so much for the nice comments, I was worried this video might be to long and technical. Depending on your abilities I am working on a modification to the Morley that might improve things, best of both worlds then. Going to carry on working slowly as I am reluctant to alter things unless the gain is high :)
Hi again, I am pleased to say that today I have adapted the Morley to perform just as well as the Gaugemaster. This is done at the cost of maximum speed (just a little) as the output was higher. I am still finalizing components and then will consider making a 'how to video' but experience and understanding in transistor isolation, component identification and a means of testing capacitors to get a balanced pair will be essential.
Thank You for your reply . I look forward to the " how to " video on this subject . Electronics is a total
mystery to me , but if someone tells me what to do , I`m happy . Of course the guarantee will be " out
the window ". Thanks for taking the trouble, and doing all the " spade work " . Regards , Paddy .
czcams.com/video/adtCCWrfEA0/video.html
Hi Mike, just a detail to change. The 230V a.c. is an R.M.S. measurement relating it to the d.c voltage that would need to be used to move the same amount of energy around. The actual peak voltage is the square root of 2 times 230V = 325V. Ouch!
Hi, remind me of what I said? Been a while
hi mike, very nice video the type of subject chambs123 used to cover with loads of info. can you tell me is it the motor that growls or the controller when trying to make a loco crawl? thanks.
Hi, many thanks. The motor growls just a little, nothing to be concerned about :)
Remarkable video, Mike. Shows how far 'standard' DC controllers have advanced in the 12 or so years I went over to DCC. What is interesting is that at the beginning of my DCC use, the smoothness at starting (using Prodigy Advance & Lenz Silver decoders) always produced a very slight starting 'jolt'. These days, with Zimo equipment, this doesn't happen, of course. But to start, I felt that DCC was not as good as DC, particularly as I used H&M 'Walkabout' controllers whose starting ability and acceleration and deceleration smoothness (Lima EE Type 4, scale 0 - 80 mph took 9.25 minutes) has not timewise been equalled. Are they still available under a different name? Cheers.............Reinhard
Hi Reinhard. Many thanks for the nice comments :) Oh yes the H&M Walkabout, such a wonderful controller. Not sure how it was deployed but the control was great. I think if someone made one now it would sell like hot cakes :)
Hi again, I am pleased to say that today I have adapted the Morley to perform just as well as the Gaugemaster. This is done at the cost of maximum speed (just a little) as the output was higher. I am still finalizing components and then will consider making a 'how to video' but experience and understanding in transistor isolation, component identification and a means of testing capacitors to get a balanced pair will be essential.
Thank you!!! Confirmed what I suspected that the D was not put DC and used an effect similar to PWM to pulse the motor. But using a rising voltage and fixed pulse width instead of fixed voltage variable pulse width.
Like you I want the hand held of the morley and the control of the model D. I will add a 5 pin din to a model D and make my own hand held controller.
Love my model D. Thanks for the excellent video insight.
Glad it helped! just to make the point that the model D simply uses full wave rectified DC which results in a 100Hz wave form that does indeed produce great control. My modified Morley now does the same, so I have the control with the flexibility :)
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited so either way, both need modifying to make them perfect. The D needs remote controls and the Morley needs to have the ripple added in😁.
Do you have circuit diagrams for both? Seems like it would be worth building a hybrid from scratch.
Mal
@@malcolmhodgson7540 Thanks, happy to say I am ahead of you, check out czcams.com/video/mwslbGiL9k0/video.html 1,2,and 3 and there are also details on modifying the Morley. czcams.com/video/adtCCWrfEA0/video.html
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited checked all three! Ordered all the parts I didn’t already have in stock. I have decided to include a multi way switch and switch in or out different capacitors on the supply zero, 33, 470, and maybe 4700 capacitors to effectively switch between raw and super smooth Morley styles. It’s just an idea but we don’t get anywhere unless we experiment as you have admirably proved. I shall let you know how that works out. M.
Fantastic video Mike. What would happen if you connected up the old H & M unit that I saw in the background ?
Hi Tony, it would run the trains ok, it's a variable voltage transformer, but there is a bit of noise on the Selenium rectifiers, fitted with a non polarized 220uF cap it would be more than acceptable but would not have the fine control. I've since modified the Morley to perform better, there is a video up showing what I did :)
Cheers Mike. I'll check it out.
Hi, very important question... How many excact minimal volts could provide Gaugemaster? As I understand it has halfway feature?
No, it's full wave as stated in the video. Minimum volts is zero
Thank you, very informative. I agree with your comments about Gaugemaster, I have two controllers a combi and a D and they are very good smooth slow speed runners for all my locos, which to me is the most important thing as I prefer prototypical speeds & start stops. Also, I can't fault their customer service, I bought the D second hand and after a couple of years one of the channels stopped working, I called Gaugemaster and they had me send it to them. They then repaired it and sent it back free of charge, which I consider excellent service. I have no experience of the Morley controllers, although they do look good but looks aren't everything, as I always told my ex-girlfriends. Cheers!!
Thanks very much for the supportive comments. I have modified the Morley now (twice) and it gives as smooth or maybe a little smoother control than the GM. I love them both and use them both regularly. You will find on my channel a scratch built controller which really is very good. I plan to update and old H&M with two of these soon.
Sorry to be offtopic but does anybody know a way to log back into an instagram account?
I was stupid lost my login password. I love any tips you can offer me
@Silas Zayne instablaster :)
@Rodrigo Kannon i really appreciate your reply. I found the site on google and Im waiting for the hacking stuff now.
Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later with my results.
@Rodrigo Kannon It did the trick and I actually got access to my account again. I am so happy!
Thank you so much you really help me out!
A fantastic insight to these controllers , I noticed a H&M controller in the background , I have a H&M Clipper which I intend to use for a small shunting/station layout I'm planning ( jus getting back into the hobbie after about 40 years) What are your thoughts on the old H&M's ?
Glad I could help! Thanks for the support, the old H&Ms were great equipment but honestly not right for today's very sensitive motors, the H&M safety minor was a little better.
Many years ago I built a pulse width modulated controller. Are these manufactured?
What this did was supply 12V at 100hz but only as a short pulse so the motor always received 12v giving max torque at slow speed.
To increase speed the pulses were just expanded untill the output was smooth 12V DC.
Thanks for watching, PWM is quite common these days, you can buy the units cheaply from Amazon and ebay. They can be a little aggressive on motors however
Model Railways Unlimited . Thanks for the reply.
I don't have a model railway now but love to see yours and other posts.
It disturbs me to hear that Morley have suggested that this extremely scientific and honest review would cause them to loose sales. I personally don't see what is so wrong with slightly less slow speed control. If anything reviews like this can reveal improvements that should and could be made to their product. You even offered non-stop praise for the controller vs the Gaugemaster one AND have offered a how to video for improvements.
Many thanks, yes i was surprised and hurt to be honest. I have been made aware that they have fully adopted my revised capacitors and now market this as a Crawler. I'd have been delighted with that outcome as it's good for us. Maybe they thought I'd be after reward or were simply offended that I dare to suggest there was a possible improvement. Since the mod, the Morley is in full time use.
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited The person at Morley is simply the rudest person I have ever dealt with so I am not surprised by your experience
@@hibberdmedia Oh dear, so nothing has changed, I am unsure of why they act like this, the other side of the coin however is that Gaugemaster are always super helpful and kind.
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited My first response was to send the controller back but I decided to keep it as the plug in ancillary controllers are going to be useful. Next time I will buy from Gaugemaster - particularly due to the very impressive slow runni9ng you have demonstrated
@@hibberdmedia I can understand that, I have further modified mine now, changing the 100uF caps for 33uF much better and like you say the flexibility of the control sets.
This is a great video to allow people who know nothing or very little of electronics (like me) to wrap their heads around how the electronics in train controllers work. Especially the part where you show "what the train sees" in the oscilloscope; it's much clearer when you can actually see it like that: how the circuit is limiting the output, thus controlling the loco's speed.
I found your video because I'm looking to buy a better controller for my trains but I haven't much money to spend... So I was thinking about older, secondhand controllers on eBay. I see you have an H&M right outside of shot and I was actually thinking of getting a Clipper because I remember they were good and are now going for very cheap, but the consensus on forums seems to be that their current output is overkill for modern locos and that one is better off with newer controllers. So my question is: what controller would you recommend that's good but won't burn a hole in my wallet or my locos (as it were ☺️)? Thanks in advance!
Hi and thanks for the nice reply. What a question however! You could try building your own? czcams.com/video/mwslbGiL9k0/video.html but I think depending on how many tracks you want to control your very best bet would be a Gaugemaster Combi, or Model W powered from a 16vac supply. You might look at 2nd hand even, Gaugemasters are very well made, simple and good. Personally, much as I love the old H&Ms I'd avoid them for new models. H&M Safety Minor would just about be ok. Remember that the controller is your best investment so do the best you can. Hope this helps
Model Railways Unlimited Thanks for the answer! It surely helps. I'm now looking into Gaugemasters to see what options I have. And you're very right in that they're investments, so perhaps I should go for a twin track controller. I'm liking the Gaugemasters that have that simulation function that helps ramp up and down the speed. Any thoughts on the DS and/or the UDS models? Cheers!
@@ooairmonkey4771 Cool, well if you are looking at a quality controller then, just to confuse you :) Do consider the Morley, especially their Crawler model, the plug in handheld units are a true inspiration! If you check on my channel there is even a modification to the old Vector as shown here, that brings the same performance as the Gaugemaster. Of course, with the Gaugemasters you do also get a 'life of the unit' warranty which is unrivaled these days!
MikesMovies Hahaha! Yep, that certainly muddles my clear plans a bit. 😅 I have looked into the Morley brand a bit, however, but unfortunately I live in Spain and it seems I can't get them from anywhere else except from Morley themselves, which, adding the S&H really puts up the price. Whereas the GMs I've been surprised to find I can even get on Amazon Prime Spain for about as much as I would pay if I bought them from, say, Hatton's, including S&H (i.e. 43€ for the Combi, 89€ for the Series D). Right now, the D is really looking like a sure bet to me... Although I did find a pretty battered secondhand Q going for 80£ but I don't know if I should risk it... O, the controller dilemma!
Thanks again for all your help! 🙏
@@ooairmonkey4771 Ah well if you feel so inclined you could build your own? czcams.com/video/mwslbGiL9k0/video.html but I'd go with the model D to be honest, Are you 230v mains there in Spain I think you are? X pat? Let me know how you get on.
Thank you for showing the output waveforms of these controllers. I see that GM also has a "feedback" controller. Do you know if they operate with the same waveform output as the standard controllers, or do they function completely different, such as a "spike" output from a thyristor? I need a smooth low speed controller, but I want to avoid commutator arcing or motor heating. Thank you kindly!
Hi, I have never specifically tested the feedback version, while I would expect it to be technically good it will be a form of pulse width modulation, therefore motor heating is increased. The amount will depend on the frequency of modulation and the maximum peak voltage of each pulse. In general terms PWM always causes heat and noise. Dcc uses it but at a high control frequency which reduces noise and some heating. Each chip is customisable to the loco it's fitted to, despite all that more heating does occur than on dc operation.
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited PWM (with a low freq output) might explain why they say not to use it with coreless motors. I should just get a scope like yours and really see what my various throttles are putting out. Thanks for the reply.
You might find this interesting www.scottpages.net/ReviewOfControllers.html
Good video Mike.
Have you thought about reducing the smoothing caps on the Morley.
This would give better control at low speeds. Ok, the downside is perhaps some hum but by varying the capacitance values you should be able to reach a happy medium.
With regards the Guagemaster ( got one meself for running in locos before dccing them).
You could always re mount the transformer in the case on rubber grommits to reduce the vibration being transferred to the case. As long as the earthing is maintained to the case of the tranny(if it has any) then their shouldn't be a safety issue.
Hiya, many thanks for watching. Yes I am actively looking at this. 33uF would seem to be the idea, enough to quell the hum on coreless but not enough to spoil the slow running on other motors. I have to work out how Morley have deployed their split AC rail, if it is full wave rectified and so 100Hz output this would be good, if it's 50Hz then I would not consider it. A video for another day maybe :)
Model Railways Unlimited Too right, 😀 Would be a good one though. Tim.
Hi again, I am pleased to say that today I have adapted the Morley to perform just as well as the Gaugemaster. This is done at the cost of maximum speed (just a little) as the output was higher. I am still finalizing components and then will consider making a 'how to video' but experience and understanding in transistor isolation, component identification and a means of testing capacitors to get a balanced pair will be essential.
Model Railways Unlimited Well done Mike. Even though i don't have the Morley, will be an interesting video, & helpful for those that want to mod there's. Tim
Cheers Tim, lots to consider. I don't want to be seen to encourage folk to invalidate warranties, open mains devices and I have a lot of respect for the designer of the Morley. Will wait and see how much demand there is :)
I guess you could add a 100Hz chopper stage to the output of any of the smooth controllers to give you the same control as the gaugemaster one. It would need to switch on and off in both polarities, but this is certainly possible.
Hi Roger, yes indeed I understand this has been done, and it gradually decreases to nothing as the loco speed increases, the best of both worlds then
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited - Well, the effect would continue through the whole speed range in the simplified version I described. It would chop whatever is coming out. That would reduce the current across the reversing relay which is why I've been asked to look for a solution into that getting too hot with a 14V DC controller.
@@rogerfroud300 Reversing relay? can you tell us more?
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited - I've been given a circuit diagram of a Trix locomotive which predates permanent magnet motors. Instead is uses a series field coil where the permanent magnet would be in a more modern design. The problem with this arrangement is that is doesn't reverse if you reverse the voltage across it. It does mean you can run it on AC or DC though.
To reverse the motor, there's a cunning arrangement which involved another comutator type of arrangement which is indexed round using an electromagnet and a pawl and ratchet. The comutator arrangement reverses the connections across the field coil which reverses the motor direction.
The clever bit about this is how the coil is actuated. The coil is across the supply that the motor sees. That means as you ramp up the speed, the coil get gradually stronger, but not enough to turn the mechanism.
However, when the locomotive is stationary, there's a button that you can press which momentarily puts the full voltage across the tracks which is sufficient to turn the mechanism. It's crude, but it works. The problem I've been asked to look into is that a new controller runs at 14V DC, and that permanently across the reversing mechanism coil makes it rather hot.
@@rogerfroud300 How interesting, I really need to see a photo or video of this motor, the only thing that springs to mind is can the magnet be replaced with a permanent one?
Very interesting and timely vid. Your video indicates the Morley is a conventional dc rectified regulated smoothed output whereas the GM is a Pulse Width Modulator PWM....I therefore assume the engineer from GM adjusted the trim pot to increase PWM frequency at low current. Is this what he actually did? My locos range in design from 1970s Lima thru to DCC fitted Auscision models and have found PWM is not as good as conventional and produces a sonic feedback from the motors including the Lima ringfield Which I can get to crawl perfectly on DC but is jerky on PWM. The performance of the GM is impressive.
I have seen some controllers which have an "Inertia" control... I am guessing this is a variable resistor which allows modulation of the ripple in conventional and adjustment of the frequency in PWM, am I correct?
Thanks fro the video..very informative.
Cheers .
Hi and many thanks for watching, I understand the video is rather long so it was easy to miss the GM test. Basically both controllers are emitter followers using full wave rectified DC producing 100Hz ripple. The Morley has protective circuits as well as smoothing which you will see I changed in this video czcams.com/video/adtCCWrfEA0/video.html the Morley also has separate transformers for each track meaning no interaction between outputs. The GM employs a very similar circuit but no protection other than the IC's collapse current and very little smoothing which is why it has great control at the cost of a little noise. Neither are PWM and I don't recommend that, the inertia control is interesting, I am not 100% on how its done but it seems simple enough to defeat the main control with further circuits. Hope this helps.
Mike, do you have any experience of the PICtroller handheld ? It's a feedback design that the maker claims can detect coreless motors and act accordingly. Your scope would show what was going on... www.malcolmsminiatures.co.uk/PICHH+-+hand+held+PICtroller
Hi, I'd love to get one, understand they are no longer made. With some cleaver electrics it would be possible to deploy PWM and feedback without noise or motor damage. Lower peak to peak voltage at start up, shaped wave forms etc. OH wait, I see it is still made. I'll check it out
The maker of the Varipulse controller seems to be saying the opposite ie. controllers using proportional voltage control with ripple produce more heat at low speeds than PWM ? www3.sympatico.ca/kstapleton3/851.HTM
One thing I do know is a I have a recent Piko ho diesel that will start to creep forward at only 1.1 volts and a 2002 Brawa at 1.2 v. This is regardless of the controller type. A H&M Clipper with simple variable resistance can operate both these locos smoothly at any speed. A Gaugemaster Combi is barely any better.
On the other hand, the clipper is hopeless at steady speeds on inclines and bends for my vintage Wrenns like the City and Castle class therefore modern controller designs are pretty much essential for vintage locos and safer for sensitive modern ones.
Hi Jack and thanks for the detail reply. I've looked at the Varipulse before, I am sure they are great for the models he runs. However without wanting to be rude his test to prove heat build up is not valid! Of course if you feed a motor which has stalled power the one pole that is live will heat up. The point about our motors is they are designed to be rotating, that dissipates heat and switches between poles to cause movement. You have observed that a full wave DC supply with no or limited smoothing produces very good results, your Clipper is doing exactly that as long as you don't put it in half wave :) Personally for me, the only way to safely deploy PWM for our models is to have shaped pulses that tail off at the leading edge resulting in less 'kick' on the motor, also there needs to be far less than full voltage 16-20v at the start of the spin up, I've successfully used 6 volts which produces far less heat yet gives most of the perceived advantages of PWM. Certainly a fascinating topic.
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Ronald Dodd's video of his 8F with a Trax feedback controller is a bit frightening, a sort of death rattle ! czcams.com/video/D5jegACV9os/video.html
A very interesting and informative video, which taught me a lot. The only problem I have is that I am in N gauge (2mm) and I wonder how the different controllers cope with the much smaller motors used at that scale. My Stroudley Terrier (0-6-0) measures only 53mm over the buffers! I've nevr had it apart but the motor must be tiny. You said the Morley controller was more "motor friendly" but it scored much less on slow speed control which, as the scale gets smaller, is more of a problem. Any comments would be welcome.
Hi many thanks indeed. Morley now make a crawler version which is possibly the best of both worlds.
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Many thanks for your response, much appreciated. I will have a look at the Morley Crawler. Do you have a review of it, any idea how it works? I wonder if reudicng or increasing the pulse - space ratio of a square wave (is that the duty cycle/) would provide better control than relying on the half wave and Noise. Just a thought. I don't know of any controllers that work that way. Anyway, thanks for your time abnd your interesting series.
@@ianheams2599 hi, the Morley uses full wave rectified dc, with some degree of smoothing. Check out my modifications video to see inside. Many thanks for the support
Hello Mike. Do you happen to know whether a Morley handheld controller will work with a Gaugemaster GMC-100M. Gaugemaster Gaugemaster
Hi, not sure if the pot values and might need a rewire, hmmm also keep in mind Morley's are centre off that won't work on GMs
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Thanks for replying. I prefer the Gaugemaster, so I'll play safe and not mix manufacturers.
@@roba4297 Gaugemaster model Ws are good, did you see how I combined them with my model D
czcams.com/video/GYBYg4P-j-M/video.htmlsi=CTpE3C8xKzepDkFF
Hey there.
Just come across your very well produced technical video, impressive knowledge. I personally found the end demonstrations very useful, thank you.
The Gaugemaster low speed capability is very impressive, and exactly what I am after. The only problem, you have to pay a fair wack for the privilege (which is ok when essential).
However before I go down that road, I wonder if you could answer this question with your expert knowledge..
I have a Hornby HM4000+ (i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zDwAAOSwe2JeOk5f/s-l1600.jpg) with the useful brake and delayed speed facilities.
So my question, could this controller be modified to provide such better low speed like the Model D ???
Much appreciate any advice,
Thanks in advance,
Chris :-)
Hi Chris and thanks very much for the nice comments. The HM4000 is a PWM type and therefore can't be changed to be like the Morley or GM. Have a look at the Morley Crawler, this is basically my modifications and might work well for you, plus you get the very useful hand held plug ins, if you check my later videos you will see how I modified mine
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Hi there. Very useful to know, thanks. I have indeed already looked at the Morley, after seeing this video of yours. Unfortunately, it appears they have a steep price tag nowadays. I can even get a Gaugemaster cheaper than them.
Ahh well, I shall wait in anticipation, see which one comes within my budget first.
Many thanks again, and wish you well,
Chris :-)
Hi Chris, blimey I just checked and they don't seem to be making the Vector controllers anymore, most odd, you might look at Gaugemaster W or Combi controllers, the W needs a power supply but you can use a Hornby AC one, the Combi comes with a power supply, sometimes these are on offer at a good price. The Ds are selling at mad prices just now, I really don't know why. Good luck
Just looked and the Ws are a good price here, do you have a pair of the Hornby 16 volts AC output supplies hanging about? www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/digital-and-analogue-control/gaugemaster-modelw-model-w-single-track-walkabout-controller/
Actually you could save yourself the trouble and get a pair of these www.modelrailwaysdirect.co.uk/Gaugemaster-COMBI-Combi-Single-Track-Controller/
How to protect against short circuit ????
Hi there. Both these controllers have built in protection so no need to worry
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Thank you !
Here is the follow up! czcams.com/video/adtCCWrfEA0/video.html
You not only know your stuff, you know how to teach and video. Not everyone who can do, can also teach!
Just one more thing... I recall a British made transformer/ controller that had separate control via a simulated Reverser and a Regulator, but I can't remember what it was called. Can you remind me? (It would help my grandchildren understand the driving of steam locomotives.)
Thank you very much for the high praise. I am unsure of controller is this a model one
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Yes. It had two pivoted ‘arms’ on top, both of which described an arc (laid flat). I think the arms pivoted back to back but I can’t remember for sure. In ‘full reverse gear’ the Reverser control pointed to the bottom with ‘full forward gear’ at the top of its sweep. This was to the left of the ‘Regulator’, which had ‘full regulator’ at the top of its sweep and ‘regulator closed’ at the bottom of its sweep. Definitely for model railways, good looking and possibly made in Herefordshire. I hope this helps.
I have been thinking about your counter intuitive finding about cleaner signals being better for slow speed control. It isn’t what I would have expected, but your research evidence shows it is true. I like this type of finding. It applies a lot when it comes to understanding social systems like organisations which it was my job to figure out😉
Strict organisations with clear orders transmitted unambiguously can get into terrible difficulties…
Was it this images.app.goo.gl/JyU9mntQVD1uyJNf9 I recall them on sale on the 80s
@@ModelRailwaysUnlimited Thanks for the link and I’ll research them some more. But what I remember looked a little different and if memory serves me, it was analogue. How the ‘Reverser’ settings were simulated I can’t imagine. But I’m assuming you could place the Reverser in Full Forward Gear and nothing would happen until the ‘Regulator’ was opened. But the principles were similar as in your link… though the Reverser function is labelled a brake. Ie if the ‘Brake’ was left ‘Hard On’ then opening the ‘Regulator’ would not move the train.
I was discussing your finding down at the Surrey Society of Model Engineers in Mill Lane, Fetcham today. The theory offered was that a less than clean voltage ‘kicks’ the motor repeatedly (small kicks many times) and that’s why Gaugemaster gives smooth low speed running. I’m following you advice so a big thank you from me 👍