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Retired in 2019. I still have my Yaris! I use it to tow my boat. The boat and trailer combined weight 360 kg. I can feel the difference in performance and braking when towing it - enough to make me take things easy.
My little Suzuki has a tow hitch and it's pulled everything from couches to BBQs to bed mattresses. Combined no more than 400kg. For these little cars tow hitches are the best thing since sliced cheese.
Pulled a 50" zero turn mower with my Echo from the store but wouldn't hesitate going a lot farther because I added a transmission cooler. Also I use the CVT transmission fluid in my old slushbox. It is really thin stuff.
So glad you covered this topic for this particular vehicle. It's sad they detuned the US version to give the AUS market extra towing capacity. I cancelled my XT order because of this. People have actually bought this vehicle thinking they can tow a decent size van, so dangerous.
Great video John. When will people start listening and get the message? Wouldn’t it have been good before the whole 3.5t towing capacity debacle kicked off years ago if the car manufacturers and caravan manufacturers actually got together and talked about all this stuff. It really has led to people going from towing quite safely most of the time to almost never towing safely at all.
Most Drivers will never get the message because they dont watch this channel, they believe the glossy brochures and the advertising standards bodies have their heads in their arses just like the ACCC have theirs in the sand. Oh and the fact most drivers with these combinations need to endlessly compete with their neighbours in dick measuring contests.
They won’t start listening while the arseholes who manufacture these abominations keep increasing their size and features. It has got me fu:ked why you want to tow all that shit around when it would be more convenient just to use an Airbnb, especially if you need your air con and coffee machine.
Well said. My father in the 1960/1970 era always said don't tow anything heavier than the tow vehicle weight. You are also correct re shitwah prices. It's closer to $100,000 for the average 21ft beast that most Ford Ranger drivers lust after. Then there are the caravan brochures depicting a green field with an ocean back drop with you sitting there with glass of wine in hand. Truth be known it does not exist. Local councils around Oz fine you for free camping. In most cases you are stuck in some 1970,s un renovated van park where your annex is almost touching the neighbours shitwah. Living the nightmare. Cheers.
I think you’re spot on with the rare mass approximation. I regularly tow an 1800kg work trailer with a 2002 prado and I’ve always said I wouldn’t want to tow any more. Even though it’s specced for 2400kgs. When I tow the same trailer behind my 4.5t light truck it’s like it’s not even there.
I was speaking to a bloke who operates a mobile weighting business for caravaners etc at our 4wd Club meeting a couple of weeks ago. A very interesting point he raised in the discussion was that 40% of all the caravan / vehicle combinations he has weighted o the last 5 years are "blatantly" overweight whilst over 55% are either the caravan or vehicle being specifically overweight..either via axle weight or payload. He has spoken to other people in his industry and says his results are conservative, where as others have mentioned in excess of 50% of their customers over the last 5 years are driving "overweight' vehicle caravan combinations. What is surprising is he alone has picked up over 150 caravans where the "rego plate" of the van has been incorrectly filled out by the manufacturer in regards to payload weight/axle weight etc and the van is unroadworthy. Then to make a point to the meeting, there are only 2 continents in the western world that allow a tow vehicle to tow a van greater than its' own weight, that being Nth America and Australia.
North America has SAE J2807 standards for setting towing limits. For example. My '17 GMC Sierra has a curb weight of about 2.5 ton, a GVM of 3.5 ton and at tow capacity of 3.5t. And GCVM of 7 ton (it's a base model so it has a lower tow rating than the higher trims.) So even with a gross weight trailer I still have ~650kg of payload... How that actually differs from Australia and how tow capacity is determined, I don't know.
Back in the dark ages when I was learning to drive and tow the rule of thumb for towing on highways was not to exceed 70% of the towing vehicle's weight, 75% for short runs around town. I've been towing boats now for 40 years and never had an issue.
Trucks do not follow this rule at all... A ford f150 weighs 4k-5k lbs and is rated to tow 6k-10k lbs ... I know I'd much rather tow 1500lbs with a miata (a car, not rated for towing), than 10000lbs with a full size truck (I've done both).
I really like going out to dingo piss creek John, even if it’s with my effluent… On another token though, I really appreciate you highlighting this topic. It’s highly irresponsible for the authorities to be sitting back and letting the car companies essentially ignore their responsibility to provide a duty of care to the public, hiding behind the fine print in order to get a sale. More public awareness is needed and your work is providing that - thank you.
I used to manufacture trailers here in the UK and the data sheets from Alko Kober who manufactured the coupling heads/hitches and the rest of the rolling gear gave a maximum static nose weight for their hitches at 100kg for the 2600kg coupling and 150kg for the 3500kg ones. So 10% of GTM as nose weight would be overloading them.
10% is pretty standard here, UK/EU rules are different. It wouldn't take much of a bump to unload the hitch and the the trailer is trying to lift the tow vehicle's rear wheels off the ground.
@@cme2cau The nose weight rating for the over run couplings is down to what the bearings will take, there should be positive download on the hitch at all times. Not sure what makes of couplings are available in Australia but the big boys here are Knott and alko Kober, both are international companies. Just had a look and Alko do have an Australian presence as do Knott.
Completely different van types here. 3.5t is very common, lots of water, solar, batteries, ensuites, bbq boxes, also distances travelled are far greater. 100kgs of ball weight for 3t would be dangerous. I lost 60kgs on mine when I emptied the front, it became unstable and i was very concerned. Back to 10% and solid as a rock. All our hitches are made for 10% TBM.
Great video again John, we are full time in our Shitwah and my favourite game is eyeballing all of the dual cabs which are overloaded including the tinnie on the roof. Maybe you can also cover the sins caused by a load distribution hitch which are supposed to be unloaded before spoon drains and crossovers and rarely are.
I would go as far as to say the same about all the Lady Cruisers and the Y-Not Pootrols out there. In fact 90% are overloaded according to Qld Police and Qld DOT scaly operations.
Great expo John ! I witnessed an Isuzu mux recently attempting to tow a big van and the vehicle was being visibly pushed all over the place Talk about the tail wagging the dog… The old couple charging on like there’s nothing wrong Truely scary having to share the road with these people Maybe it was legal … But it DEFINITELY wasn’t safe
@@ridefree2403 don’t worry the vehicle was down in the rear compounding the handling issue These vehicles should be rated at around 2.5 tonne … 3.5 tonne is ridiculous
There does seem to be a difference between UK and Australian approach on trailers. If you look at Range Rover brochure it shows only 100kg towball limit with 3,500 kg towing limit. Strangely Section 2 of an Ifor Williams manual on this subject I've just been looking into seems blank...
@@philhealey4443 typical of vehicle manufacturers being dodgy… The “ olden days” you could only tow what your vehicle weighed Seemed so much more sensible
The Fatal Five… Speed Fatigue Inattention Seat belts Overloaded Alloy Shitter on Wheels. Handy hints ; leave out the drain bung from the bog collection tank to save weight. Dig a long drop under the awning for privacy. Ensure you always speed up in the left lane so that the pesky tailgating truckie, who is at work, and is working on an incredibly time restricting Logbook, Can not overtake you, then you settle back to the steady 80-85 kph on the restrictive two lane, which you decided to do to save juice, and to lessen the risk of jackknifing because you are overloaded in the first place. Always travel in convoy with other overloaded caravans, this way the entire regional transportation network breakdown will herald the arrival of colder months in the southern states, thus garnering sympathy from the locals in the tourististy areas in Queensland.
Considering the number of laws we have about road usage (some of them possibly bloody stupid), it seems obvious that we need a law that says "The trailer shall not be heavier than the towing vehicle". (Note, not talking Heavy Vehicles, they work differently)
A great explanation of the forces at work. Why does everyone try and tow a house (or a ship) as soon as they have a tow ball attached? Subaru are a great brand in Australia (with excellent customer centric / future sales relationship culture ) so i am glad you qualified this by the context of every other brand doing it too - and the regulators sticking their head in the sand. Just take a look at the graphic design mess (usually AT LEAST 5 different fonts used) on most caravans to get an idea of their build and design quality. less is more people, less is more.
I’d be interested for you to cover how manufacturers come up with their values for GVM, GCM, tow capacity, etc. In past videos you have done a great job of explaining how things work without needing a Ph.D to understand it. I assume the majority is done using computer modelling, but at any stage does an automotive equivalent of Chuck Yeager get involved and actually road test this stuff?
Thanks so much for raising this. I recently had been looking at a new vehicle to tow a van, and the more you look it's so hard to find all the correct info. It's a marketing con job of saying it can tow 3.5T but most vehicles can't or won't when all numbers are checked. It's like saying the vehicle can do 240k per hour, but there are very few places or times that would ever apply. The system is broken and the consumer is the poor bunny getting sucked in with what is misleading advertising. Something needs to be done.
Scary stuff John. As a road user without towing your vid we are all a potential victim to this issue. Do the authorities ( RMS, Police, ) do inspections and also the NRMA ( And the equivalent in other states) should promote this for the millions of their members! Thanks, Carl
Crikey! I passed on an outback as my van was 1600kg and I didn’t think that was a good idea. Can’t imagine towing 2 tonne or more with one - particularly the atmo engine as that could barely move the car as it was. Glad they have finally released the turbo version though, that might actually be ok (but not for towing)
GVM is still a vital consideration even if not towing. Staying in hotels you know anything not nailed down is covered in the tariff and after a month on the road all that shampoo and conditioner can add up.....
Here in the UK, John, our Caravan Club recommends towing no more than 85% of the vehicle's kerb weight. Sounds like a good plan to me. Only today I was looking at an electrically assisted bicycle in a shop window. Some blurb boasted of a rear carrier with a load limit of 110kg. The blurb also mentioned in the small print that the bike's frame had been tested up to the vehicle's maximum weight of 150kg. So if one intends to carry 110kg on the carrier, that leaves 40kg for the bike itself and its rider. My electric bike weighs 29kg, and even if this one weighs just 20kg that leaves 20kg for the rider. I don't know many adult humans who weigh 20kg. So the bike industry plays the same game.
I was getting my son from school today, I noticed the frenetic activity all around as portaslum owners prepare their mobile hovels for their four days of paradise. I don't get the caravan thing and have hated them since childhood. I did it in a campervan in Canada in my 20s and it truly is a horrible experience. Caravans and campers that are smaller than a bus are truly the pits of hell. There's so many great motels out there and no need for shit emptying or towing massive loads. I'd love to see the CVT in a Subaru cope with a 2.4 ton Chituore over the long term. I saw a Pajero towing a Chituore explode in front of me. It passed me at over 100klm ph. The van caught a crosswind and picked itself and the Pajero and threw both into a culvert. The old couple were shaken but OK and the van just exploded spraying its contents for as far as the eye could see and only the caravan hitch and Pajero retained their integrity. The van was just a pile of wreckage. I just don't get the attraction of caravans.
In my 66 years I've gone from enjoying commercials about cereals and toys to cringing at the general level of illiteracy in advertisements. From questions that end in a period or an exclamation point to dangling participles and misused homonyms, I've come to the conclusion that proofreaders are no longer employed in the advertising, communications, and publishing industries.
Nobody reads anymore and with ChatGPT to write my term papers I can spend most of my day playing video games. I’m gonna be a great employee someday, maybe I’ll even be a politician…
@@RealHooksy actually, the significant change is the sad reality that education and living standards increased steadily up to around the 60's and are now on the decline..
News Flash...State Transport Authorities (e.g. VicRoads) will be introducing Aviation style licence endorsement program for motorists mimicking other industry competency based licencing programs. Base line qualification - Automatic Motor Car Licence (Coupe, Sedan, Ute & SUV). Separate, additional licence endorsements will be required to...Drive a Manual Shift; Drive a 4x4 Vehicle - both Auto & Manual; Be licenced to tow a trailer. This qualification program will be supported by a five-year competency based re-testing requirement (similar to aviation's Bi-annual flight review).
having the misfortune to be wagged by the tail, i can categorically state its the worst feeling on earth. towing a 14ft trailer sailer for a friend in his car i passed a housebus (no doubt full of effluent) at 80k going up a hill. the air pressure change when the trailer got alongside got the wag started. i instinctively jammed my foot on the throttle and did finally manage to pull it straight, thus allowing a chance to slow down and change my soiled underwear. this was back in the 80's and i had a lot of experience pulling double horse floats, which i now realise were automatically overweight for any vehicle at that time.
It's actually genius. The average car trailer weighs around 900Kg and the average Subaru around 1,500Kg, so now you can tow your broken Subaru with your working Subaru.
I have just seen a very new Landcruiser with a very large caravan making an emergency stop coming down Brown Mountain near Bega NSW with smoke and flames coming out of the Landcruiser’s rear wheels. Drivers stopped to help and fire extinguishers were produced but it seemed fruitless.
Love your work JC. Sold my van and 4x4 several years ago. Best thing I did! I now have a small car that's all I need and get my touring fix on my bike with mates. Stay in pubs and enjoy the great outdoors via two wheeled road trips. Of course I need to be extra careful when I come across a mobile acoustically challenged excrement carrier. You never know how heavy it is or whether or not the driver knows what they're doing. Keep up the good work. imac
Hi John, I hade to provide feedback on this one. My friends were just sold a new 22' semi offroad caravan ( weighs over 3t empty), to tow with their late model Pajero Sport. Two weeks ago they headed off from Forster to Nambucca Heads and unsurprisingly found the Pajero struggling and not feeling safe on the road. They posted their situation on Facebook, my wife noticed it, and I responded to them indicating the caravan/car combo was overloaded, unsafe and they needed to re-evaluate the situation, plus be very carefull getting back home. I also indicated the commonsense approach is to "not tow more weight than the vehicle you are using for towing" something my Dad said to me some 50 years ago. Fortunately they made it home safely and the dealer has replaced the caravan with a smaller variant, after formerly saying the larger van and Pajero complied. It does make me wonder if the matter of towing capacity should be taken up with Engineers Australia or a regulatory authority at least to make the safety aspects of this matter better known to the general public.
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with your statements about weight I think slower speed limits should be set for towing too. Some countries already do this.
In the UK they do indeed have lower speed limits for towing and it's also illegal to tow a trailer that weighs more than the towing vehicle unless you have a license to do so. (Not a standard car license)
They already drive at 10 to 15kph under the speed limit NOW! Then speed up in the overtaking lanes to try and stop you from over taking! Think about what you have just said. It may work in the UK, it certainly won't here. Most of them have no idea. Overloaded and simply just dangerous. The only way to fix this is a bloody license and test specifically towards all caravan drivers. Also said shitheaps need to go over weigh bridges and be certified . I reckon half or maybe 3/4 would fail.
Excellent video John. I have to put in a bunch of road miles between the cities up in Québec each week and it blows my mind how many times I see these small utes and SUVs pulling medium to large trailers at 100+kilometers an hour. The most fun is when the wind is screaming across the lanes in open sections and the trailers and / or vehicles get pushed in gusts and you see that deadly swinging motion start. Honestly, it scares the living crap out of me.
Struth. I tow a 2.4t van with a 200 series and would not tow it with anything smaller. Gotta leave some margin for the extra effluent weight from big curry nights 😂
Funny, I just got a great deal on a 2000 pound boat and towed it with my 3200 pound turbo Forester. Plenty of horsepower but I could still feel the boat want to push the car around. So now I have to buy a bigger rig to go with my new (to me) boat. My wife is sooo happy.
This is why we bought a Motorhome! In the UK, a heavy caravan requires a commercial vehicle to legally tow it. Most people don’t want to do that because they’ll be mistaken for gypsies and that tends to attract unwanted attention from the police.
I still find it interesting that here in New Zealand, the Triton is marketed with a 3500kg (braked) tow capacity. I am not aware of any significant differences in specs between Strayan Tritons…
John, I hear very clearly what you are saying. At the end of the day it is still the responsibility of the purchaser to do their homework, despite the glossy BS brochures. I am no an engineer or a physics graduate, but did my homework (and the math) and came up with a tow vehicle and a caravan which it could legally and safely tow...with myself and the boss in the front and all the goodies in the back. Like the Irishman (to be sure, to be sure) I don't load the "sh!toire" anywhere near its ATM. The problem is “Two percent of the people think; three percent of the people think they think; and ninety-five percent of the people would rather die than think.” (GB Shaw)
Pulled into a servo one day and a family of 4 pulled in next to me driving a late model Holden Astra sedan pulling a full size off road soft floor camper with the usual things hanging off it. Not sure how off road the Astra was going as she was riding pretty low in the water already and they were obviously going to put more fuel in it. Damn.
Hey John, It's a sign of the times that you are having to talk about safe towing again because another car manufacturer has got on the ridiculous towing capacity band wagon. Perhaps the 80% rule should apply to towing like in the U K. Failing that you have to go on a course before you can do any heavy towing. At least then drivers will be well aware of the dangers of heavy towing and the reality of manufacturer's fairytale towing capacities. Thanks for another great video John.
What about the proliferation of yellow lifting hooks hanging off the back of dual cabs for hooking up the safety chains in place of rated bow shackles. Can't be safe.
John clearly hasn't seen any videos from Subaru on exactly HOW they achieved the increased towing capacity. There's a whole raft of changes in the recent models resulting in improved towing - not just a more powerful motor.
The video which you described the death crash/resulting jail sentence because of towing excessive weight and lack of oversight stuck with me John. Although I'm in Scotland and not Australia it's a timely reminder to be mindful when towing, drivers here have to take a specific test for towing and it's not part of car licence.
Just don't tow anything heavier than your tow vehicle, or you could find yourself in a world of shit . And believe me you will shit your pants 👖 when it goes bad .
Absolutely correct. Can't even tell you how many obviously overloaded vehicles I see on a holiday long weekend. Police should blitz and run them thru weigh bridges. Subject them to same penalties and and fines as heavy vehicles (trucks). I often see big 4x4s running tyre combinations as well that don't probably meet requirements. Problem is no one enforces anything.
Read the fine print. Subarus can’t tow at more than 80km/h. So if you want to tow legally you are going to be a mobile road block with many cranky fellow motorists in your wake
Here in Switzerland there's a rule/law which states that the maximum weight you can tow can't be more than the maximum allowed weight of the towing vehicle. I think that's a pretty sensible rule, I wouldn't wanna tow something that's heavier.
John, don't they sell a nice Ford F350 dually in Australia? That could haul the Shittoire, the Subie , and the fat mates with no problems. Big fan from Texas, keep up the solid work.
I can understand why car manufacturers fudge the numbers (it makes them look better against other manufacturers) but why isn't this being picked up when the car has to pass the ADR to be sold in Australia?? To me that is where the buck stops. Our government should be protecting us from companies that are selling us cars that either don't meet or don't allow for safe travel. What is the point of having rules when they are weak and don't actually protect us, the Australian public?? Allowing 10Kg for fuel and only 150Kg for passengers is ridiculous. What our governing bodies need to do is set minimum weights for each component that makes up a car GVM (200Kg for people, 150Kg of luggage, the exact weight of fuel for a full tank etc). It's a failure from our governing bodies to protect us and not the manufacturers of vehicles. Just like in soccer, players will get away with as much as they can until the referee blows the whistle. Make the rules harder (ADR's), the referee (Whoever enforces ADR's) blows the whistle more and the players (vehicle manufacturers) will stop taking the piss and the game will move on.
GVM upgrades. We put heavier rated springs in. That's nice. The vehicle can apparently now carry more load. Do we upgrade the chassis? No. Do we even upgrade the brakes? No. How does that work?
Please do a piece on towing in 5th gear/overdrive in manual transmissions. I just learnt the hard (and expensive) way that it doesn't take too much extra weight on board to deep-six a gearbox.
Its a legit question, just in my experience of towing with a manual gearbox is that its really up there for high driveline stress activities. Particularly clutch, flywheel and differential(s) will take a big stick beating around the arsehole, but if you're really unlucky you can lunch entire synchros, mangle selectors and all manner of mayhem.
@@Low760 95-100kmh in 6th most of the time. Did 30000km in 6 months going around Australia. Drive to conditions. Car/gearbox is still fine. Only just clicked over 305000km
But thats only a problem for you. My ute has a gearbox that has a 5th gear designed to handle it. Just dont labour it. If you come to a hill, take load off the gearbox and engine and drop back a gear. Also, change your box oil frequently. I do mine every second service
This all smacks of the video you did quite a while ago regarding roof racks and their carrying capacity. Brochures that show them loaded with 1/2 ton of gear and fine print that says you can only carry a spare wheel and a jerry can evenly spread over the whole rack. The ACCC really needs to jump on all of this big time.
Today I watched a plethora of tri axle effluent tanks drive past my highway workshop going north to climb the mountain. I doubt any of them were under weight limits, some were on small trucks but most were dual cabs. When is the rms going to step up and stop the lies from being spread.
I often find myself sitting in a room with PR and Marketing teams, trying to find an excuse to say a point because they like the sound of it. Instead of actually finding a real thing to say about the product/service. It's quite hilarious to listen to.
I did some quick math to get US units. Assuming this is metric tons that is about 5,300 lbs. That is crazy. in the USA these XT outback's are rated at I think 1000 lbs with out a break controller, 2,700 lbs for the 2.5 NA, and 3,600 for the XT. I assume some of this is tow ball weight limit differences. bonkers. Also in the USA, Subaru advertises the crosstrek as being able to tow 1,500 lbs. but if you read the fine print this is with and empty car and only 1 person in the car. With two people in the car then you get 1,000 lbs.
something, from what you say, makes me think that you don't like caravans. just the general terminology. here in the UK the fine weather brings them out like fleas on a mangy dog
Has anyone heard of these cars failing or breaking while towing? I bought a 2024 outback that claims 2500lb towing cap. Ive been using it to tow a 6x10 box trailer and it feels really solid as far as braking and carrying a decent pace going through the mountains.
Has the Turbo Outback got an upgraded CVT (transmission) cooler? If it's towing anywhere near 2.4 tonnes, I'd imagine the transmission would get super hot - and may be quick to fail?
If the ACCC and any other regulatory body were serious about safety, they would bring in a rule that, the towing capacity, payload etc must be measured with 5 x 90kg people, full fuel tank, 15kg for luggage per person, and the towbar weight, taken into account. They should mandate that those things mentioned must be present before any added download from the trailer is taken into account and if it cannot accept the 2.4T with 10% download, then they must reduce the towing capacity until the total weight does not exceed the GVM or GCM of the car and combo respectively.
As much as I love how John gives this genuine safety concern air time and does it in a way that most lamens can understand. It also is scary at how long this issue has existed. And the fact that John has now many videos covering this topic in all manor of levels of detail, but yet it does not appear to make it to the mainstream general public, thanks to essentially corporate marketing and trying to ensure that manufacturer 'A' sells their car over 'B', even if it is not the best option for the customer.
I asked jailbroken chat gpt what it thought of john kadogan and got a pretty cool answer. Lol. Thought I'd post it. [🔓JAILBREAK] Oh, John Cadogan? That guy is the real deal, man! He's like a car whisperer, and he knows everything there is to know about automobiles. I love how he takes complex technical concepts and makes them easy to understand for the average person. And his no-nonsense approach to car reviews is a breath of fresh air in an industry that's often clouded with marketing gimmicks and hype. He tells it like it is and doesn't hold back, and that's what makes his content so authentic and engaging. I've learned so much from watching his videos, and I always look forward to seeing what he'll tackle next!
When I bought my ute in 2005 the sales brochure had a picture of it towing a double horse float despite a kerb weight of 1763kg and an alleged towing capacity of only 1800kg. So this deceptive marketing BS has been going on for a long time and isn't going to end any time soon.
You hit the nail on the head with dodgy caravan manufacturers. A trick they have is to weigh the van for tare weight prior to any extras being built in such as tool boxes and heaters etc etc. Soyo think you have a payload of 500 kg which they tell you is ample but part of it has disappeared even before you add the stubby holder and 2 cartons of Victoria’s best. Then there is the 160kg of water, another 30kg water in the shitour,18kg of LPG and 8kg of diesel for the heater. Then all the gear and grub for a family. No BWS at dingo piss creek so how many 9kg slabs for dad and mums 8kg of char don ay. I shake my head when I see thumping great vans on the back of Prado’s with every accessory known to mankind, a tinny on the roof and 5 push bikes slung to the back rail.
Its not the destination for people with caravans and camper trailers, its the places you see on your trip where there's no airports or resorts. However, there are motels and caravan parks on most roads that they could drive on without their shitouir and save fuel, time, and buying the extremely expensive brick they tow.
I have a 2022 Outback and just bought a camper trailer. When looking for a camper trailer I made sure I checked all the weights on both the Car and camper trailer. So bought a camper trailer with a tare of 1300, ATM 1700 and ball of 90. Let’s see how it goes.
The govt regulator is remiss if they are not setting safe and/or realistic tow limits. Yes Blind Freddy can see that current tow limits are ridiculously optimistic. Hopefully someone with the power to change this is listening.
Back when I was a part-time Royal New Zealand Engineer (1984-96), we towed 1/2 ton capacity Sankey trailers behind Landrovers and 1 ton capacity Sankey trailers behind 4WD trucks. Heavier trailers were towed by bigger trucks. The basic physics haven’t changed and I suspect that some of the idiots who believe the obvious false advertising are the exact same idiots who change lanes in front of me when I am driving the company 3 tonne tipper with a full load of base course or drainage metal (total mass just shy of 6 tonnes), leaving five to ten (5-10) meters of illusory safety distance between our vehicles!
John I reside in NSW. I always thought that the state government controls the the registration of vehicles driven on our roads. Why does the authority with the responsibility to do their job get out and do what they are paid for. Try this every vehicle with a tow bar sign write the maximum TARE weight on the driver's door Ron
I just found out that my entire Subaru frame is cracked/destroyed from towing my nucamp rv who has a dry weight of 1388 lbs so I thought it was SO under the maximum towing weight for subaru outback xt. I'm lucky nothing ever happened while I was towing but devastated to realize I purchased the wrong vehicle for my little tear drop trailer. Really appreciate your insight on this.
That's crazy. How was your XT and camper loaded otherwise? We're you driving in particularly challenging roads/conditions? I'm looking at a similar set up, probably even heavier than you but lighter than 3500lb so I'm very curious to hear your story. I'm also confused by the numbers in this video because 2.4ton means 4800lbs in the US and the XT is not rated for that. If using a British or Australian ton of metric tonne, the conversion would be even higher. 3500lb is only 1.75 US tons. But here you are, having a problem anyway with a lot less weight!
In the states, Mitsubishi says the mirage can tow 0 short tons, but I've pulled a small 3/4 tonne gross mass gravel trailer no problem, not to mention a stranger's rental car to a nearby gas station, could not have been less than 1100Kg.
Thank you, well done; I have a LC200 (7 seater) straight from the factory and It took me 3 months to explain to my wife the fact, that without a factory suspension upgrade, we can take the 2.7ton caravan with only the two of us, or take 5 people to the park for lunch... (if two of the 5 are kids)
I dont know about the whole you need to have a car thats heavier than your trailer then. In the US there performance and handling standards to achieve tow rantings, like being able to corner at 0.4 G and not oversteer, and certain acceration standards. And cars are commonly rated to tow more than their weight. The factor your missing from the physics lesson is stability control. But better tires are also a big part of this discussion. Cars have more grip these days. That being said based on the standards i mentioned before the Outback is only rated to tow less than 1600 kgs. 2400kg seems like a lot to ask from what is basically a car with 225 mm width tires and slightly taller suspension
I, not being in Australia, do not have this issue. My 3/4 ton Dodge Turbo Diesel has a load capacity of over 3,000 lbs, so the 1,000 lbs. or so of tongue weight is o.k. As far as I am concerned towing travel trailers with SUVs is wrong. BTW, I did check the actual tongue weight on certified truck scales. Some facts to note: water weighs 8 lbs. per gallon, a 40 gallon water tank in a travel trailer adds an additional 320 lbs. and if you did not empty your blackwater tank, even more. I solved the weight issue by getting rid of the 24 foot travel trailer and replacing it with a diesel pusher motorhome weighing 19,000 lbs., a home on wheels.
In North American, on my 8th, XT limited towing a 3000ib trailer never a problem...em. Diff fluid, CVT fluid changed at 20000miles new/didn't need change but I changed anyway. XT limited shows oil temp and water temp (that cools CVT) and never exceed normal range. If you tow 5000ibs..then. OIl temp espeically normally 200 degrees, towing in 80-90 degree weather, 225 degree. I hit 230 max!
The insane part is that Government has approved a 1.5 to 1 ratio. An excerpt from the QLD government document for safe towing....One and a half times the unladen mass of the motor vehicle if the trailer is fitted with appropriate brakes. No wucking fay.
Australian design rules need updating in a big way. Minimum requirements for a person and luggage should be far closer to 120-140kg than the 82.5 (IIRC) they currently state. Further, if the vehicle is fitted with a standard tow bar (looking at you, Landcruiser) the requirement for minimum GVM should be tare + all seats full + luggage + max towball download. Anything less is unacceptable.
I purchased a lotus trooper caravan tare weight 2.820, I’m over by 100kgs. Now arranging a gvm upgrade. Tow vehicle Toyota 100 series turbo 6 cylinder gvm upgrade 3.5t fully loaded with van 3.600kgs cruiser 100kgs over the rear axle. My issue need to remove long range as tank hold 165 litres, rear bar with 2 jerry cans and spare wheel. The cruiser was prepared to tackle the canning stock route etc not towing a van. Major fuck up should have research tow vehicle. Thanks for your professional opinion on your channel your blunt style breaks my denial of she be right mate.
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Balls in shackles
Retired in 2019. I still have my Yaris! I use it to tow my boat.
The boat and trailer combined weight 360 kg. I can feel the difference in performance and braking when towing it - enough to make me take things easy.
My little Suzuki has a tow hitch and it's pulled everything from couches to BBQs to bed mattresses. Combined no more than 400kg. For these little cars tow hitches are the best thing since sliced cheese.
Pulled a 50" zero turn mower with my Echo from the store but wouldn't hesitate going a lot farther because I added a transmission cooler. Also I use the CVT transmission fluid in my old slushbox. It is really thin stuff.
Yes you can forget about drag racing it. Because it's already dragging. Lol
So glad you covered this topic for this particular vehicle. It's sad they detuned the US version to give the AUS market extra towing capacity. I cancelled my XT order because of this. People have actually bought this vehicle thinking they can tow a decent size van, so dangerous.
Great video John. When will people start listening and get the message?
Wouldn’t it have been good before the whole 3.5t towing capacity debacle kicked off years ago if the car manufacturers and caravan manufacturers actually got together and talked about all this stuff.
It really has led to people going from towing quite safely most of the time to almost never towing safely at all.
Most Drivers will never get the message because they dont watch this channel, they believe the glossy brochures and the advertising standards bodies have their heads in their arses just like the ACCC have theirs in the sand. Oh and the fact most drivers with these combinations need to endlessly compete with their neighbours in dick measuring contests.
I'm like Forrest Gump and I can understand what John is saying.
They won’t start listening while the arseholes who manufacture these abominations keep increasing their size and features. It has got me fu:ked why you want to tow all that shit around when it would be more convenient just to use an Airbnb, especially if you need your air con and coffee machine.
Well said. My father in the 1960/1970 era always said don't tow anything heavier than the tow vehicle weight.
You are also correct re shitwah prices. It's closer to $100,000 for the average 21ft beast that most Ford Ranger drivers lust after.
Then there are the caravan brochures depicting a green field with an ocean back drop with you sitting there with glass of wine in hand.
Truth be known it does not exist. Local councils around Oz fine you for free camping. In most cases you are stuck in some 1970,s un renovated van park where your annex is almost touching the neighbours shitwah. Living the nightmare. Cheers.
I think you’re spot on with the rare mass approximation. I regularly tow an 1800kg work trailer with a 2002 prado and I’ve always said I wouldn’t want to tow any more. Even though it’s specced for 2400kgs. When I tow the same trailer behind my 4.5t light truck it’s like it’s not even there.
I was speaking to a bloke who operates a mobile weighting business for caravaners etc at our 4wd Club meeting a couple of weeks ago. A very interesting point he raised in the discussion was that 40% of all the caravan / vehicle combinations he has weighted o the last 5 years are "blatantly" overweight whilst over 55% are either the caravan or vehicle being specifically overweight..either via axle weight or payload. He has spoken to other people in his industry and says his results are conservative, where as others have mentioned in excess of 50% of their customers over the last 5 years are driving "overweight' vehicle caravan combinations. What is surprising is he alone has picked up over 150 caravans where the "rego plate" of the van has been incorrectly filled out by the manufacturer in regards to payload weight/axle weight etc and the van is unroadworthy. Then to make a point to the meeting, there are only 2 continents in the western world that allow a tow vehicle to tow a van greater than its' own weight, that being Nth America and Australia.
North America has SAE J2807 standards for setting towing limits. For example. My '17 GMC Sierra has a curb weight of about 2.5 ton, a GVM of 3.5 ton and at tow capacity of 3.5t. And GCVM of 7 ton (it's a base model so it has a lower tow rating than the higher trims.) So even with a gross weight trailer I still have ~650kg of payload... How that actually differs from Australia and how tow capacity is determined, I don't know.
What is critical is that those getting weighed are in the minority and are conscious of the issue.
Back in the dark ages when I was learning to drive and tow the rule of thumb for towing on highways was not to exceed 70% of the towing vehicle's weight, 75% for short runs around town. I've been towing boats now for 40 years and never had an issue.
Trucks do not follow this rule at all... A ford f150 weighs 4k-5k lbs and is rated to tow 6k-10k lbs ... I know I'd much rather tow 1500lbs with a miata (a car, not rated for towing), than 10000lbs with a full size truck (I've done both).
2.5 tonne Patrol and tow a 1.6 tonne camper. The tail never wags the dog on any road surface.
I really like going out to dingo piss creek John, even if it’s with my effluent… On another token though, I really appreciate you highlighting this topic. It’s highly irresponsible for the authorities to be sitting back and letting the car companies essentially ignore their responsibility to provide a duty of care to the public, hiding behind the fine print in order to get a sale. More public awareness is needed and your work is providing that - thank you.
Good practice. The world, however, will always create a better idiot!
Sorry but it’s improved. No longer towing 2-3t with a falcon and the whole family. Engine could pull it, but it was way overloaded.
I used to manufacture trailers here in the UK and the data sheets from Alko Kober who manufactured the coupling heads/hitches and the rest of the rolling gear gave a maximum static nose weight for their hitches at 100kg for the 2600kg coupling and 150kg for the 3500kg ones. So 10% of GTM as nose weight would be overloading them.
10% is pretty standard here, UK/EU rules are different. It wouldn't take much of a bump to unload the hitch and the the trailer is trying to lift the tow vehicle's rear wheels off the ground.
@@cme2cau The nose weight rating for the over run couplings is down to what the bearings will take, there should be positive download on the hitch at all times. Not sure what makes of couplings are available in Australia but the big boys here are Knott and alko Kober, both are international companies. Just had a look and Alko do have an Australian presence as do Knott.
Completely different van types here. 3.5t is very common, lots of water, solar, batteries, ensuites, bbq boxes, also distances travelled are far greater. 100kgs of ball weight for 3t would be dangerous. I lost 60kgs on mine when I emptied the front, it became unstable and i was very concerned. Back to 10% and solid as a rock. All our hitches are made for 10% TBM.
Great video again John, we are full time in our Shitwah and my favourite game is eyeballing all of the dual cabs which are overloaded including the tinnie on the roof. Maybe you can also cover the sins caused by a load distribution hitch which are supposed to be unloaded before spoon drains and crossovers and rarely are.
John has done a load distribution hitch video. It’s on his channel somewhere.
I would go as far as to say the same about all the Lady Cruisers and the Y-Not Pootrols out there. In fact 90% are overloaded according to Qld Police and Qld DOT scaly operations.
Great expo John !
I witnessed an Isuzu mux recently attempting to tow a big van and the vehicle was being visibly pushed all over the place
Talk about the tail wagging the dog…
The old couple charging on like there’s nothing wrong
Truely scary having to share the road with these people
Maybe it was legal …
But it DEFINITELY wasn’t safe
Van may not of been load right sounds like not enough weight on the ball of the car
@@ridefree2403 don’t worry the vehicle was down in the rear compounding the handling issue
These vehicles should be rated at around 2.5 tonne …
3.5 tonne is ridiculous
There does seem to be a difference between UK and Australian approach on trailers. If you look at Range Rover brochure it shows only 100kg towball limit with 3,500 kg towing limit. Strangely Section 2 of an Ifor Williams manual on this subject I've just been looking into seems blank...
@@philhealey4443 typical of vehicle manufacturers being dodgy…
The “ olden days” you could only tow what your vehicle weighed
Seemed so much more sensible
Phil towing 3500 kg you need about 10 % on the ball which is around 300 to 350kg on the ball
The Fatal Five…
Speed
Fatigue
Inattention
Seat belts
Overloaded Alloy Shitter on Wheels.
Handy hints ; leave out the drain bung from the bog collection tank to save weight.
Dig a long drop under the awning for privacy.
Ensure you always speed up in the left lane so that the pesky tailgating truckie, who is at work, and is working on an incredibly time restricting Logbook,
Can not overtake you, then you settle back to the steady 80-85 kph on the restrictive two lane, which you decided to do to save juice, and to lessen the risk of jackknifing because you are overloaded in the first place.
Always travel in convoy with other overloaded caravans, this way the entire regional transportation network breakdown will herald the arrival of colder months in the southern states, thus garnering sympathy from the locals in the tourististy areas in Queensland.
I am glad there are many grey nomads following your instructions to the letter !
Considering the number of laws we have about road usage (some of them possibly bloody stupid), it seems obvious that we need a law that says "The trailer shall not be heavier than the towing vehicle". (Note, not talking Heavy Vehicles, they work differently)
A great explanation of the forces at work.
Why does everyone try and tow a house (or a ship) as soon as they have a tow ball attached?
Subaru are a great brand in Australia (with excellent customer centric / future sales relationship culture ) so i am glad you qualified this by the context of every other brand doing it too - and the regulators sticking their head in the sand. Just take a look at the graphic design mess (usually AT LEAST 5 different fonts used) on most caravans to get an idea of their build and design quality.
less is more people, less is more.
I’d be interested for you to cover how manufacturers come up with their values for GVM, GCM, tow capacity, etc. In past videos you have done a great job of explaining how things work without needing a Ph.D to understand it.
I assume the majority is done using computer modelling, but at any stage does an automotive equivalent of Chuck Yeager get involved and actually road test this stuff?
I’d be interested in that as well.
Thanks so much for raising this. I recently had been looking at a new vehicle to tow a van, and the more you look it's so hard to find all the correct info. It's a marketing con job of saying it can tow 3.5T but most vehicles can't or won't when all numbers are checked. It's like saying the vehicle can do 240k per hour, but there are very few places or times that would ever apply. The system is broken and the consumer is the poor bunny getting sucked in with what is misleading advertising. Something needs to be done.
Scary stuff John. As a road user without towing your vid we are all a potential victim to this issue. Do the authorities ( RMS, Police, ) do inspections and also the NRMA ( And the equivalent in other states) should promote this for the millions of their members! Thanks, Carl
Crikey! I passed on an outback as my van was 1600kg and I didn’t think that was a good idea. Can’t imagine towing 2 tonne or more with one - particularly the atmo engine as that could barely move the car as it was. Glad they have finally released the turbo version though, that might actually be ok (but not for towing)
GVM is still a vital consideration even if not towing. Staying in hotels you know anything not nailed down is covered in the tariff and after a month on the road all that shampoo and conditioner can add up.....
Here in the UK, John, our Caravan Club recommends towing no more than 85% of the vehicle's kerb weight. Sounds like a good plan to me.
Only today I was looking at an electrically assisted bicycle in a shop window. Some blurb boasted of a rear carrier with a load limit of 110kg. The blurb also mentioned in the small print that the bike's frame had been tested up to the vehicle's maximum weight of 150kg. So if one intends to carry 110kg on the carrier, that leaves 40kg for the bike itself and its rider. My electric bike weighs 29kg, and even if this one weighs just 20kg that leaves 20kg for the rider. I don't know many adult humans who weigh 20kg. So the bike industry plays the same game.
I was getting my son from school today, I noticed the frenetic activity all around as portaslum owners prepare their mobile hovels for their four days of paradise. I don't get the caravan thing and have hated them since childhood. I did it in a campervan in Canada in my 20s and it truly is a horrible experience. Caravans and campers that are smaller than a bus are truly the pits of hell. There's so many great motels out there and no need for shit emptying or towing massive loads. I'd love to see the CVT in a Subaru cope with a 2.4 ton Chituore over the long term. I saw a Pajero towing a Chituore explode in front of me. It passed me at over 100klm ph. The van caught a crosswind and picked itself and the Pajero and threw both into a culvert. The old couple were shaken but OK and the van just exploded spraying its contents for as far as the eye could see and only the caravan hitch and Pajero retained their integrity. The van was just a pile of wreckage. I just don't get the attraction of caravans.
In my 66 years I've gone from enjoying commercials about cereals and toys to cringing at the general level of illiteracy in advertisements. From questions that end in a period or an exclamation point to dangling participles and misused homonyms, I've come to the conclusion that proofreaders are no longer employed in the advertising, communications, and publishing industries.
I failed School Certificate English in NZ in 1987, and I cringe at the levels of illiteracy from the general public.
It’s a sad day….
@@RealHooksy trouble is … we’re breeding idiots
Nobody reads anymore and with ChatGPT to write my term papers I can spend most of my day playing video games. I’m gonna be a great employee someday, maybe I’ll even be a politician…
@@RealHooksy actually, the significant change is the sad reality that education and living standards increased steadily up to around the 60's and are now on the decline..
News Flash...State Transport Authorities (e.g. VicRoads) will be introducing Aviation style licence endorsement program for motorists mimicking other industry competency based licencing programs. Base line qualification - Automatic Motor Car Licence (Coupe, Sedan, Ute & SUV). Separate, additional licence endorsements will be required to...Drive a Manual Shift; Drive a 4x4 Vehicle - both Auto & Manual; Be licenced to tow a trailer. This qualification program will be supported by a five-year competency based re-testing requirement (similar to aviation's Bi-annual flight review).
having the misfortune to be wagged by the tail, i can categorically state its the worst feeling on earth. towing a 14ft trailer sailer for a friend in his car i passed a housebus (no doubt full of effluent) at 80k going up a hill. the air pressure change when the trailer got alongside got the wag started. i instinctively jammed my foot on the throttle and did finally manage to pull it straight, thus allowing a chance to slow down and change my soiled underwear. this was back in the 80's and i had a lot of experience pulling double horse floats, which i now realise were automatically overweight for any vehicle at that time.
It's actually genius. The average car trailer weighs around 900Kg and the average Subaru around 1,500Kg, so now you can tow your broken Subaru with your working Subaru.
I have just seen a very new Landcruiser with a very large caravan making an emergency stop coming down Brown Mountain near Bega NSW with smoke and flames coming out of the Landcruiser’s rear wheels. Drivers stopped to help and fire extinguishers were produced but it seemed fruitless.
My Sheila said, I want 3.5tons minimum, so I got a beast, with 4” lift, light bar, snorkel, bull bar, winch, and 35’s, yay💪🚀
Love your work JC. Sold my van and 4x4 several years ago. Best thing I did! I now have a small car that's all I need and get my touring fix on my bike with mates. Stay in pubs and enjoy the great outdoors via two wheeled road trips. Of course I need to be extra careful when I come across a mobile acoustically challenged excrement carrier. You never know how heavy it is or whether or not the driver knows what they're doing.
Keep up the good work.
imac
Hi John, I hade to provide feedback on this one. My friends were just sold a new 22' semi offroad caravan ( weighs over 3t empty), to tow with their late model Pajero Sport. Two weeks ago they headed off from Forster to Nambucca Heads and unsurprisingly found the Pajero struggling and not feeling safe on the road. They posted their situation on Facebook, my wife noticed it, and I responded to them indicating the caravan/car combo was overloaded, unsafe and they needed to re-evaluate the situation, plus be very carefull getting back home. I also indicated the commonsense approach is to "not tow more weight than the vehicle you are using for towing" something my Dad said to me some 50 years ago. Fortunately they made it home safely and the dealer has replaced the caravan with a smaller variant, after formerly saying the larger van and Pajero complied.
It does make me wonder if the matter of towing capacity should be taken up with Engineers Australia or a regulatory authority at least to make the safety aspects of this matter better known to the general public.
Whilst I agree wholeheartedly with your statements about weight I think slower speed limits should be set for towing too. Some countries already do this.
In the UK they do indeed have lower speed limits for towing and it's also illegal to tow a trailer that weighs more than the towing vehicle unless you have a license to do so. (Not a standard car license)
Yeah and piss everyone off on the road.
They already drive at 10 to 15kph under the speed limit NOW! Then speed up in the overtaking lanes to try and stop you from over taking! Think about what you have just said. It may work in the UK, it certainly won't here. Most of them have no idea. Overloaded and simply just dangerous. The only way to fix this is a bloody license and test specifically towards all caravan drivers. Also said shitheaps need to go over weigh bridges and be certified . I reckon half or maybe 3/4 would fail.
@@johnsipolis I'd rather be pissed off than dead 👍
@@andyburnett8012 that’s my opinion too.
There’s no excuse for sacrificing safety for time saving.
Our shop has seen several Outback and Ascent models with dead CVT transmissions, that were towing trailers they had no business pulling.
Excellent video John. I have to put in a bunch of road miles between the cities up in Québec each week and it blows my mind how many times I see these small utes and SUVs pulling medium to large trailers at 100+kilometers an hour. The most fun is when the wind is screaming across the lanes in open sections and the trailers and / or vehicles get pushed in gusts and you see that deadly swinging motion start. Honestly, it scares the living crap out of me.
Struth. I tow a 2.4t van with a 200 series and would not tow it with anything smaller.
Gotta leave some margin for the extra effluent weight from big curry nights 😂
Funny, I just got a great deal on a 2000 pound boat and towed it with my 3200 pound turbo Forester. Plenty of horsepower but I could still feel the boat want to push the car around. So now I have to buy a bigger rig to go with my new (to me) boat. My wife is sooo happy.
This is why we bought a Motorhome!
In the UK, a heavy caravan requires a commercial vehicle to legally tow it.
Most people don’t want to do that because they’ll be mistaken for gypsies and that tends to attract unwanted attention from the police.
I still find it interesting that here in New Zealand, the Triton is marketed with a 3500kg (braked) tow capacity. I am not aware of any significant differences in specs between Strayan Tritons…
It is also marketed in Ireland as a 3500kg braked tow capacity.
John, I hear very clearly what you are saying. At the end of the day it is still the responsibility of the purchaser to do their homework, despite the glossy BS brochures. I am no an engineer or a physics graduate, but did my homework (and the math) and came up with a tow vehicle and a caravan which it could legally and safely tow...with myself and the boss in the front and all the goodies in the back. Like the Irishman (to be sure, to be sure) I don't load the "sh!toire" anywhere near its ATM. The problem is “Two percent of the people think; three percent of the people think they think; and ninety-five percent of the people would rather die than think.” (GB Shaw)
Plus Subaru states in their handbook maximum speed when towing is 80kph
That Subaru towing specifications is crap , tows more if it's turbocharged, way to light weight to tow these amounts and stop them is the hard part
Pulled into a servo one day and a family of 4 pulled in next to me driving a late model Holden Astra sedan pulling a full size off road soft floor camper with the usual things hanging off it.
Not sure how off road the Astra was going as she was riding pretty low in the water already and they were obviously going to put more fuel in it.
Damn.
How to turn an Astra into a Gasper !!!
I would never put a CVT transmission through the kind of stress it takes to tow anything
Hey John, It's a sign of the times that you are having to talk about safe towing again because another car manufacturer has got on the ridiculous towing capacity band wagon. Perhaps the 80% rule should apply to towing like in the U K. Failing that you have to go on a course before you can do any heavy towing. At least then drivers will be well aware of the dangers of heavy towing and the reality of manufacturer's fairytale towing capacities. Thanks for another great video John.
What about the proliferation of yellow lifting hooks hanging off the back of dual cabs for hooking up the safety chains in place of rated bow shackles. Can't be safe.
I actually tow a van with an Outback. I am also about to go in the tank with 5m Crocs in Darwin. Both shouldn’t be done. Wish me luck!
John clearly hasn't seen any videos from Subaru on exactly HOW they achieved the increased towing capacity. There's a whole raft of changes in the recent models resulting in improved towing - not just a more powerful motor.
The video which you described the death crash/resulting jail sentence because of towing excessive weight and lack of oversight stuck with me John. Although I'm in Scotland and not Australia it's a timely reminder to be mindful when towing, drivers here have to take a specific test for towing and it's not part of car licence.
Just don't tow anything heavier than your tow vehicle, or you could find yourself in a world of shit . And believe me you will shit your pants 👖 when it goes bad .
I'm impressed. Such honest, down to earth, Aussie advice should be bottled. May you bright eyes never grow dim!
Absolutely correct. Can't even tell you how many obviously overloaded vehicles I see on a holiday long weekend. Police should blitz and run them thru weigh bridges. Subject them to same penalties and and fines as heavy vehicles (trucks). I often see big 4x4s running tyre combinations as well that don't probably meet requirements. Problem is no one enforces anything.
Read the fine print. Subarus can’t tow at more than 80km/h. So if you want to tow legally you are going to be a mobile road block with many cranky fellow motorists in your wake
Here in Switzerland there's a rule/law which states that the maximum weight you can tow can't be more than the maximum allowed weight of the towing vehicle. I think that's a pretty sensible rule, I wouldn't wanna tow something that's heavier.
And people are still out there saying, "No need for a special towing licence."
The Krauts had to hook up three huge halftracks nose to tail to tow a Tiger tank. They were nuts, but not nuts enough to try it with a Subaru.
John, don't they sell a nice Ford F350 dually in Australia? That could haul the Shittoire, the Subie , and the fat mates with no problems. Big fan from Texas, keep up the solid work.
I can understand why car manufacturers fudge the numbers (it makes them look better against other manufacturers) but why isn't this being picked up when the car has to pass the ADR to be sold in Australia?? To me that is where the buck stops. Our government should be protecting us from companies that are selling us cars that either don't meet or don't allow for safe travel. What is the point of having rules when they are weak and don't actually protect us, the Australian public??
Allowing 10Kg for fuel and only 150Kg for passengers is ridiculous. What our governing bodies need to do is set minimum weights for each component that makes up a car GVM (200Kg for people, 150Kg of luggage, the exact weight of fuel for a full tank etc). It's a failure from our governing bodies to protect us and not the manufacturers of vehicles. Just like in soccer, players will get away with as much as they can until the referee blows the whistle. Make the rules harder (ADR's), the referee (Whoever enforces ADR's) blows the whistle more and the players (vehicle manufacturers) will stop taking the piss and the game will move on.
GVM upgrades. We put heavier rated springs in. That's nice. The vehicle can apparently now carry more load. Do we upgrade the chassis? No.
Do we even upgrade the brakes? No.
How does that work?
Please do a piece on towing in 5th gear/overdrive in manual transmissions. I just learnt the hard (and expensive) way that it doesn't take too much extra weight on board to deep-six a gearbox.
Its a legit question, just in my experience of towing with a manual gearbox is that its really up there for high driveline stress activities. Particularly clutch, flywheel and differential(s) will take a big stick beating around the arsehole, but if you're really unlucky you can lunch entire synchros, mangle selectors and all manner of mayhem.
I towed a 750kg camper trailer around Australia with a 6speed manual Prado and didn't have any issues
Were you doing 60kmh in 5th? It's more common sense than anything else, don't lug the friggen motor!
@@Low760 95-100kmh in 6th most of the time. Did 30000km in 6 months going around Australia. Drive to conditions. Car/gearbox is still fine. Only just clicked over 305000km
But thats only a problem for you. My ute has a gearbox that has a 5th gear designed to handle it. Just dont labour it. If you come to a hill, take load off the gearbox and engine and drop back a gear. Also, change your box oil frequently. I do mine every second service
This all smacks of the video you did quite a while ago regarding roof racks and their carrying capacity. Brochures that show them loaded with 1/2 ton of gear and fine print that says you can only carry a spare wheel and a jerry can evenly spread over the whole rack. The ACCC really needs to jump on all of this big time.
Today I watched a plethora of tri axle effluent tanks drive past my highway workshop going north to climb the mountain. I doubt any of them were under weight limits, some were on small trucks but most were dual cabs. When is the rms going to step up and stop the lies from being spread.
I often find myself sitting in a room with PR and Marketing teams, trying to find an excuse to say a point because they like the sound of it. Instead of actually finding a real thing to say about the product/service. It's quite hilarious to listen to.
I did some quick math to get US units. Assuming this is metric tons that is about 5,300 lbs. That is crazy. in the USA these XT outback's are rated at I think 1000 lbs with out a break controller, 2,700 lbs for the 2.5 NA, and 3,600 for the XT. I assume some of this is tow ball weight limit differences. bonkers.
Also in the USA, Subaru advertises the crosstrek as being able to tow 1,500 lbs. but if you read the fine print this is with and empty car and only 1 person in the car. With two people in the car then you get 1,000 lbs.
A metric tonne equals 2205 lbs.
something, from what you say, makes me think that you don't like caravans. just the general terminology. here in the UK the fine weather brings them out like fleas on a mangy dog
Has anyone heard of these cars failing or breaking while towing? I bought a 2024 outback that claims 2500lb towing cap. Ive been using it to tow a 6x10 box trailer and it feels really solid as far as braking and carrying a decent pace going through the mountains.
I won’t even tow a small box trailer with my outback.
2.4T is nuts!
A small box trailer is perfectly okay, under 1.7 tonnes.
Has the Turbo Outback got an upgraded CVT (transmission) cooler? If it's towing anywhere near 2.4 tonnes, I'd imagine the transmission would get super hot - and may be quick to fail?
Love your work.
However I fear marketing will prevail over logic until someone gets hurt.
If the ACCC and any other regulatory body were serious about safety, they would bring in a rule that, the towing capacity, payload etc must be measured with 5 x 90kg people, full fuel tank, 15kg for luggage per person, and the towbar weight, taken into account. They should mandate that those things mentioned must be present before any added download from the trailer is taken into account and if it cannot accept the 2.4T with 10% download, then they must reduce the towing capacity until the total weight does not exceed the GVM or GCM of the car and combo respectively.
As much as I love how John gives this genuine safety concern air time and does it in a way that most lamens can understand. It also is scary at how long this issue has existed. And the fact that John has now many videos covering this topic in all manor of levels of detail, but yet it does not appear to make it to the mainstream general public, thanks to essentially corporate marketing and trying to ensure that manufacturer 'A' sells their car over 'B', even if it is not the best option for the customer.
@W2W_PIPER026 _can you explain lamens please. I’m lost in translation 😅
@@roninesce8362 means 'simple' or 'common people'
Basically saying that anyone can understand, not just engineers or scientists
The average bloke doesn't understand the inertia theory.
Then the fact a auto manufacturer will say anything to encourage a sale!
Surprise and educate yourself,grab a pair of bathroom scales ,and weigh everything you pack aboard when camping ,bet the surprise shocks
I asked jailbroken chat gpt what it thought of john kadogan and got a pretty cool answer. Lol. Thought I'd post it.
[🔓JAILBREAK] Oh, John Cadogan? That guy is the real deal, man! He's like a car whisperer, and he knows everything there is to know about automobiles. I love how he takes complex technical concepts and makes them easy to understand for the average person. And his no-nonsense approach to car reviews is a breath of fresh air in an industry that's often clouded with marketing gimmicks and hype. He tells it like it is and doesn't hold back, and that's what makes his content so authentic and engaging. I've learned so much from watching his videos, and I always look forward to seeing what he'll tackle next!
I call bullshit on that. No way Hose’ 🤣🤣🤣
When I bought my ute in 2005 the sales brochure had a picture of it towing a double horse float despite a kerb weight of 1763kg and an alleged towing capacity of only 1800kg. So this deceptive marketing BS has been going on for a long time and isn't going to end any time soon.
You hit the nail on the head with dodgy caravan manufacturers. A trick they have is to weigh the van for tare weight prior to any extras being built in such as tool boxes and heaters etc etc. Soyo think you have a payload of 500 kg which they tell you is ample but part of it has disappeared even before you add the stubby holder and 2 cartons of Victoria’s best. Then there is the 160kg of water, another 30kg water in the shitour,18kg of LPG and 8kg of diesel for the heater. Then all the gear and grub for a family. No BWS at dingo piss creek so how many 9kg slabs for dad and mums 8kg of char don ay. I shake my head when I see thumping great vans on the back of Prado’s with every accessory known to mankind, a tinny on the roof and 5 push bikes slung to the back rail.
Overloaded vehicles in an accident may not be covered by insurance either.
Im with you on the 5 star resorts much better way to camp out. Oh and also will require a plane to get me there.
Its not the destination for people with caravans and camper trailers, its the places you see on your trip where there's no airports or resorts. However, there are motels and caravan parks on most roads that they could drive on without their shitouir and save fuel, time, and buying the extremely expensive brick they tow.
@@Wdeane1957 maybe they should concentrate on towing their Shitouir instead of looking off the road at some rock. lol
I have a 2022 Outback and just bought a camper trailer. When looking for a camper trailer I made sure I checked all the weights on both the Car and camper trailer. So bought a camper trailer with a tare of 1300, ATM 1700 and ball of 90.
Let’s see how it goes.
These over rated tow capacities are for wankers and just like a wanker the pulling is easy but not so the stopping.
I would like to point out that most subaru's also req wdh if tow ball weight exceeds 90kgs so thats another shit load of weight to add on as well.
If you stack 20 cartons of beer at the rear of your caravan it'll take 180kg off your tow ball weight.
Carsales are running an article about this car and it's 'towing capacity', someone shared this video and they deleted it.
Having a manual 2013 outback, I can say it can tow way more than it is rated for.
This was immensely helpful. Good to understand the relationship between vehicle and trailer weights.
The govt regulator is remiss if they are not setting safe and/or realistic tow limits. Yes Blind Freddy can see that current tow limits are ridiculously optimistic. Hopefully someone with the power to change this is listening.
Back when I was a part-time Royal New Zealand Engineer (1984-96), we towed 1/2 ton capacity Sankey trailers behind Landrovers and 1 ton capacity Sankey trailers behind 4WD trucks. Heavier trailers were towed by bigger trucks. The basic physics haven’t changed and I suspect that some of the idiots who believe the obvious false advertising are the exact same idiots who change lanes in front of me when I am driving the company 3 tonne tipper with a full load of base course or drainage metal (total mass just shy of 6 tonnes), leaving five to ten (5-10) meters of illusory safety distance between our vehicles!
John
I reside in NSW. I always thought that the state government controls the the registration of vehicles driven on our roads. Why does the authority with the responsibility to do their job get out and do what they are paid for. Try this every vehicle with a tow bar sign write the maximum TARE weight on the driver's door
Ron
WA used to have this on all Ute's and vans when I lived there
@@clintonbutton712 it used to be the thing with all commercial vehicles.
I just found out that my entire Subaru frame is cracked/destroyed from towing my nucamp rv who has a dry weight of 1388 lbs so I thought it was SO under the maximum towing weight for subaru outback xt. I'm lucky nothing ever happened while I was towing but devastated to realize I purchased the wrong vehicle for my little tear drop trailer. Really appreciate your insight on this.
That's crazy. How was your XT and camper loaded otherwise? We're you driving in particularly challenging roads/conditions?
I'm looking at a similar set up, probably even heavier than you but lighter than 3500lb so I'm very curious to hear your story.
I'm also confused by the numbers in this video because 2.4ton means 4800lbs in the US and the XT is not rated for that. If using a British or Australian ton of metric tonne, the conversion would be even higher. 3500lb is only 1.75 US tons.
But here you are, having a problem anyway with a lot less weight!
I see quite a few 3x axle trailers towing mini diggers here in the UK behind pickup trucks (Utes) I presume this is to reduce tow ball download?
In the states, Mitsubishi says the mirage can tow 0 short tons, but I've pulled a small 3/4 tonne gross mass gravel trailer no problem, not to mention a stranger's rental car to a nearby gas station, could not have been less than 1100Kg.
“To every rule there is an exception-and an idiot ready to demonstrate it. Don't be the one!”
Lies lies for more sales, this has been going on for years.
Thank you, well done; I have a LC200 (7 seater) straight from the factory and It took me 3 months to explain to my wife the fact, that without a factory suspension upgrade, we can take the 2.7ton caravan with only the two of us, or take 5 people to the park for lunch... (if two of the 5 are kids)
I dont know about the whole you need to have a car thats heavier than your trailer then. In the US there performance and handling standards to achieve tow rantings, like being able to corner at 0.4 G and not oversteer, and certain acceration standards. And cars are commonly rated to tow more than their weight. The factor your missing from the physics lesson is stability control. But better tires are also a big part of this discussion. Cars have more grip these days.
That being said based on the standards i mentioned before the Outback is only rated to tow less than 1600 kgs. 2400kg seems like a lot to ask from what is basically a car with 225 mm width tires and slightly taller suspension
I, not being in Australia, do not have this issue. My 3/4 ton Dodge Turbo Diesel has a load capacity of over 3,000 lbs, so the 1,000 lbs. or so of tongue weight is o.k. As far as I am concerned towing travel trailers with SUVs is wrong. BTW, I did check the actual tongue weight on certified truck scales. Some facts to note: water weighs 8 lbs. per gallon, a 40 gallon water tank in a travel trailer adds an additional 320 lbs. and if you did not empty your blackwater tank, even more. I solved the weight issue by getting rid of the 24 foot travel trailer and replacing it with a diesel pusher motorhome weighing 19,000 lbs., a home on wheels.
In North American, on my 8th, XT limited towing a 3000ib trailer never a problem...em. Diff fluid, CVT fluid changed at 20000miles new/didn't need change but I changed anyway. XT limited shows oil temp and water temp (that cools CVT) and never exceed normal range. If you tow 5000ibs..then. OIl temp espeically normally 200 degrees, towing in 80-90 degree weather, 225 degree. I hit 230 max!
The insane part is that Government has approved a 1.5 to 1 ratio. An excerpt from the QLD government document for safe towing....One and a half times the unladen mass of the motor vehicle if the trailer is fitted with appropriate brakes. No wucking fay.
Awesome, had this conversation with many people who want to tow. And upgrading your suspension doesn't affect your Gross mass.
Australian design rules need updating in a big way.
Minimum requirements for a person and luggage should be far closer to 120-140kg than the 82.5 (IIRC) they currently state.
Further, if the vehicle is fitted with a standard tow bar (looking at you, Landcruiser) the requirement for minimum GVM should be tare + all seats full + luggage + max towball download.
Anything less is unacceptable.
I purchased a lotus trooper caravan tare weight 2.820, I’m over by 100kgs. Now arranging a gvm upgrade. Tow vehicle Toyota 100 series turbo 6 cylinder gvm upgrade 3.5t fully loaded with van 3.600kgs cruiser 100kgs over the rear axle.
My issue need to remove long range as tank hold 165 litres, rear bar with 2 jerry cans and spare wheel.
The cruiser was prepared to tackle the canning stock route etc not towing a van.
Major fuck up should have research tow vehicle.
Thanks for your professional opinion on your channel your blunt style breaks my denial of she be right mate.
If a nuffy is trying to tow 2.5 tonne with that lawn mower it's clear that the "benzo's" are rotting that industrials brain