Break testing climbing belay device - Edelrid Megajul
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 1. 09. 2020
- Eric Mac - @ericmacccc donated the Edelrid Megajul belay device and we tried and tried to break it. Ropes seem to break in the brake first.
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I would like to see this test done with the Mega Jul set up correctly đ I use a Mega Jul so I'm very interested to know more about the strength of the device when it's set properly đ
Thanks for the test! I've used the megajul for quite some time now and always had the feeling that that piece of metal looks way to flimsy. Turns out the guys that engineered it knew what they were doing.
Hey! I have to be honest, I've got mixed feelings about this channel (they're mostly positive though!). I'm a climber (not a slackliner) and also a mechanical engineer/scientist (finishing my PhD). I appreciate what you do, and I have definitely learned some interesting things by watching your break tests. Most of the time, you're pretty honest about the limitations of your tests, and they're performed in a way that they are useful. Loved the series on TCUs pulled over edges and straight out.
I'm an avid user of the megajul and use it for everything from sport to intense alpine, and have owned three. For this test, here are my notes:
1. As others have pointed out, the set up in guide mode was incorrect. blisterreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/260380_19245_L.jpg The carabiner should not be between strands, and the gate should be between the climber strand and green thumb loop (above the rope) instead of below. When it's below, the loading forces it to spin and push against the keeper wire, which wouldn't see any force if loaded properly.
2. With the carabiner between strands, it might have more slippage since the braking action is inhibited.
3. More importantly though, when it's between strands, the loading of the climber strand forces it down, and bends the brake strand around the sharp edge unnecessarily. This is what will lead to the rope getting sheathed. If you had clipped the carabiner as shown in 8d for single strand, or 8b for double, I don't think the rope would have sheathed so easily
4. I am honestly impressed that, in guide mode, incorrectly rigged to probably reduce self-locking, the device easily held 8 kN with minor slippage. If your second is taking a fall that generated 10x body weight on a dynamic rope, and you've rigged your device incorrectly and aren't holding the brake strand, and there's just some minor slippage, I am pretty happy with the device.
5. Clipping the carabiner through the device is only necessary with a single strand to keep the brake and load strands from flipping, which should only be a problem with skinnier ropes. It's not necessary with two strands.
6. The stainless steel used in the Jul line is really strong, and due to the inline loading, I doubt that eye loop will break at anything less than 20 kN. It's essentially like a skinny eye bolt loaded perfectly in line.
Here are my thoughts for how I would do this experiment if you were to do it again:
1. Test in guide mode, with one and two strands. Either hold the brake strand to prevent slippage (very little force should be required and can be done from a safe distance) or simulate a brake hand by wrapping that strand around a pipe or something a few times to get some extra capstan effect. Make sure the strands are oriented as they would be in a climbing scenario (i.e. the brake strand should be roughly below the device, not above it)
2. Test at what point different ropes (diameters, suppleness, static vs dynamic) start slipping through the device WITHOUT a "hand" on the brake strand. See how bad it really is to let go of the brake strand with an assisted device. You could even compare difference devices. Instead of testing to failure, use two scales/dynos. One to measure load on climber strand while you pull, the other to measure load on the brake strand (fix the brake strand to one end of the scale, and the scale to the other end). It's be fascinating to see how much assisted braking an ATC guide vs MegaJul provides.
3. You could do a similar thing with assisted braking devices in lead belay mode. Keep the brake strand slack, measure how much force until the rope starts slipping through.
4. Another cool thing to do would be to test when "incorrectly" clipped guide mode devices flip with a single strand for different devices. If you clip the MegaJul as in figure 8e in the manual, how much force does it take to invert the strands with an 8.5 mm vs a 10.5 mm rope. How does this compare against the ATC?
Tons of cool stuff you're doing, definitely more and more inclined to send support and get involved. I'm a broke grad student, but I am happy to give you my engineering expertise via email/phone, and I have an almost brand new 70 m Beal Opera (8.5 mm triple rated, sheath and core bonded together) that unfortunately has a core shot (not from falling) roughly in the middle. I was going to sell it as two glacier ropes, but maybe I'll send you some or all of it to do some experiments with. Break testing a new super-skinny rope in various situations seems like it has a lot of potential.
Keep up the hard work! The dirtbags of the world thank you
Yo, I think your image in the link is not 100% correct, someone else linked to Edelrid directly and the carabiner should be always going through the wire it seems: media.edelrid.de/images/attribut/54544017_GAL_MegaJul_MicroJul_MegaJulSport_SS_161205.pdf
Lewis Therin o thatâs cool, they updated the manual. The paper manual I have (I keep all my safety related instructions for gear) has it the other way. Thereâs really no reason not to have it through the wire in all cases, even with double ropes. m.czcams.com/video/385cP_FYNEs/video.html
@@TheOriginalJub I think I bought mine about a year ago, and it is identical to the link I provided. But I guess depending where you buy it, it could be stored for some time and older manuals are still out there.
I have a stash of instructions as well laying around :D
Thanks
I have a mega jul. Iâm constantly impressed by what it can do. Thank you for this video!
Great! I use the mega jul and now I am even more confident in it!
Love my mega jul, they work like a charm
The edelrid megajul is made of steel and not aluminum like other ATC style devices. That makes it very durable to either loading or abrasion. I am a big fan. The device could use some tweaks to improve handling, but its ability to do everything pretty well (nothing exceptionaly well) is what makes it appealing to me. Thanks for the tests!
Have you actually used it? It's an absolute nightmare to actually use. They went and made a functional version, which is the gigajul. Get that if you need one.
@@Grethko The MegaJul is actually my prefered device for sport 90% of the time. I find it's one of the most convenient devices to rappel with, that said, it isn't the most convenient device to multi-pitch with. I don't have a GigaJul (yet) but it does look like it fixes most of the issues people have with the MegaJul. The complaints most people seem to have with it may have to do with rope size (I run between a 9.2 to 10.2 [in the gym] and I don't have any issues) or hand size or finding the 'release point' to feather a rappel or lowering a partner. Only real complaint I have (aside from the one's related to multi pitching) is that because it's made of stainless steel it does bite into aluminium carabiners and scars them but it seems to only be an aesthetic issue rather than a functional one.
@@Grethko i am using the megajul sport and the microjul. i love them and their handling.
@@Grethko I use mine and love it. I prefer it to my grigri.
â@@Grethkomy personal choise for 6 years now .
I use both Megajul and Microjul on a regular basis. I find it interesting/funny how the device in your video gets loaded, because when I use mine in guide mode a lot of the breaking force seems to come from the two strands pinching against each other.
What I am trying to say is that you pull the rope out of the device in a weird way. That never happens to me in real life situations.
Thats because they set it up completely wrong
@@rockklimber
I would not say completely, but as I said, it gets loaded in a weird way.
Itâs loaded âweirdâ because itâs setup incorrectly. The locking is not supposed to be between the load strand and brake strand. If the biner was smaller or shifted some it couod fail completely. They should not post this online where others might follow their directio and set it up wrong too.
@@rockklimber I agree with the last part. They have no experience with the jul device and there is the problem.
The other part I have to check these days with my own juls.
Since the MegaJul ruined the rope more than itself, you could compare how different belay devices ruin the rope to find which one holds the biggest weight.
Ps I would do it not in guide mode, but to a leading climber
I'm a big Megajul fan and user. Just worth reiterating for all following this is that the Edelrid Megajul is made of stainless steel (approx. 2x stonger aluminum - meaning the rest). I was not surprised the ropes failed and the Megajul never did (you guys got it to 29k it didn't break?!?!?! - that's sick!). Two points I think would be good to elaborate on are (1) a reminder to the viewers why you use static ropes on your tests and not normal dynamic climbing ropes (as you should of course), and (2) enlighten folks on what is the maximum realistic force in any "real" climbing fall, because (as I'm sure you know) it is surprisingly less than people think. For those wanting to see it in print, I suggest getting Craig Connelly's Mountaineering Handbook and the Bob Gaines & John Long book on Climbing Anchors - lots of technical data there, all of which was highly tested. Some brief take-aways from those sources are that BD's head gear engineer has NEVER seen a 10k piece of climbing gear (ropes, cables, slings, etc...) break in over 20 years of BD's gear being used out there in the world. NEVER. Why? As Connelley details (and most experienced climbers inherently know) it's because of the simple fact that if we use dynamic ropes and sound, basic safety systems, even if some pieces pull out and you get a huge whipper, a fall NEVER results in forces anywhere near 10k (Your spine would break in half if you did). Connelley goes as far as to say that there is no such thing as "shock loading" as long as you have a dynamic rope in the system, and I 100% agree. Case in point: every time you fall on a non-dynamic dog bone on your quickdraw onto a bolt in rock on a sport route, you are "shock loading" the fucking shit out of so many things: the dogbone, both carabiners on the draw, the bolt hanger, the bolt, and the rock. But it's not shock loaded, because your stretchy dynamic rope slides through the static equipment and absorbs the fall. Go and take the same fall while leading that route on a static rope or take a fall above a bolt on a long dyneema sling, and then you'll see shock loading - and probably break your spine and only after, you'll maybe break a carabiner. Last note - in the real world, ropes get cut and people die - too often - but I doubt anyone can name a single case in the last 10 years of a dynamic climbing rope breaking (not cutting) in a real-world situation. So if the Megajul tests like we see here supersede the strength of the rope, it's safe to say it's integrity is the last thing any climber should worry about. Just like you don't worry about your rope breaking. THANKS to the lads @ HNTHL for testing and posting!!! Good stuff. Keep it coming!
Could we by chance hope for a break test with tricams in the future? I would love to see how they hold up!
In the mountain rescue world there has been a lot of testing of descent control devices (and belay devices are a subset of descent control devices or DCD's.) Almost all of them will break the rope (at least any rope you would actually use them with) before the device itself breaks. I did see a piece of 12mm Amsteel that one manufacturer was using to try and find the actual breaking strength of the device. The value where the rope breaks is usually not specified simply because it varies with the different ropes.
That said, if you test some aluminum devices with two strands of static rope you might get one to break. The steel device deformed quite a bit on your first test, which may have changed how it damaged the rope on the second test.
The value where the rope slips through the device when you are holding it with your hand, or the point where the rope will fail, is actually the most important value. I've heard it is 2.5-4kn. From here you can start to calculate maximum anticipated force for the rest of you system. Concern about breaking the device itself is misplaced, as are most concerns about using modern climbing equipment, if you are using it correctly.
Have had one of those devices for years but rarely use it, find it very catchy, was possibly the rope I was using at the time, good to know if I got around to using it again that its bomber!
It would be interesting to see a similar test on the Wild Country Revo (many use this for lead solo climbing). Great video!
The specific auto-locking feature you mention isnât used in guide mode. All atcs in guide mode will auto « lock » by default most times because of the way the ropes are set up. Which isnât possible in your setup with biner between the climberâs strand and the belay. As others have mentioned the correct setup is the gate above the climberâs strand and still within the wire loop. As shown in edelrid user guide. Specific auto-locking feature of the megajul is when using it standard belay mode. Be careful if talking about something youâve never used before. Still nice to see it holding so well though!
Waiting for GIGAJUL and JUL2 ;) :) . PS: you are great !!!
Strong piece
I have an old school reverso ( the plate style one) im happy to donate if you want to do more belay device tests, along with some heavily used dynamic rope that has been damaged by motor oil. Would be neat to compare chemically damaged sections with undamaged sections.
Awesome video again! Can you guys please wreck a brand new grigri? I would looooove tot see that!!!!!
I would love to meet you guys sometime some where I will definitely be donating to the cause lol keep it up
Think the desheathing is about the same reason I abandoned the jul series because of how sharp the bite was on ropes compared to other assisted brake devices. Suspected that would eat through a rope faster because there is no slippage of the device.
Nice video
Great work on your channel, very informative and laugh out loud!
It seems like every video where you cut a loaded line you are always using the scariest looking exacto to cut it and I'm afraid the frangible blade will get snapped off and shrapnel or something even if the cut ends are moving safely away from you! Do you own a legit sharp semi-serrated blade that doesn't have break-away segments or do you carry that arts and crafts tool up routes to cut old tat with it?
OK, this one breakes ropes in guide mode, what about ATC or Reverso in guide mode?
Some folks say they fail by carabiner being rotated by the rope, so strands switch places. Care to try? Cheers!
Well that's because they do not clip the carabiner properly than ahahah. The proper way to go there is to clip the 'back' carabiner through the rope exiting to the climber, this way when that rope is under load the carabiner cannot flip.
@@REVOLUTIONS51 I would agree with this, but most manufacturers haven't updated their manuals yet.. So most likely I will be belayed the old way)
Btw, here is nice video explaining the whole issue with guide mode rotating biner (on any device), and how one can avoid it. czcams.com/video/385cP_FYNEs/video.html
@@REVOLUTIONS51 I use both the mega/microjoule and the Reverso3 and 4. All of these work perfect in guide mode, never had a rotating or twisting action.
When I saw that people on youtube use the megajoule in the way it is used in this video I changed my giude setup to this setting (it still feels weird), but it seems Edelried wants it like that.
@@pavlodeshko thanks a lot!
I thought it has to be done when using twin or half ropes. :D
Actually, the wire is important part of the megajul - without it it is very hard to rappel or bring the climber down. I have seen 2 times when the wire failed. Ones I was on the rope on my way down and my partner had a big problem to bring me down. Also the megajul is uncomfortable in rappelling even when it is not broken. It is widely used in jams and when it fail it is a rescue mission.
Emmm, still incorrect setup of a guide mode - biner shouldn't go between two strands of rope. But it probably won't make much difference anyway..
Makes a huge difference, it prevents the strands from interacting with eachother, which is the whole thing that enables guide mode.
@@Grethko thats not what I see in the video - break strand is twisted but doesn't look loaded anyway - jammed by the load strand just fine. I might be wrong
media.edelrid.de/images/attribut/54544017_GAL_MegaJul_MicroJul_MegaJulSport_SS_161205.pdf
Image 8a clearly shows correct setup with the biner not between the ropes
@@richardh3913 thank you for posting this.... it blows my mind how long people will argue over setups when the manufacturer has clearly posted instructions on their website (along with a paper copy for anyone that buys the device new)
@@richardh3913 It's the correct setup for guide mode but I wouldn't say that's how most of its general use will be used..Most people use this for belay and rappel..I would have rather seen it used that way and seen what happened.
You've set up belay mode incorrectly as well (like regular ATC, this device works in autoblock mode).
Great work and great channel!
I'd like to know at 9'57" how many Kn it started slipping rope. How dynamic is it?
Hi @HowNOTtoHIGHLINE,
This episode makes me think that I dropped my petzl reverso at the top of a ~15 meters climb a few weeks ago.
It got a bit scratched, and I dare not use it anymore ( I bought a new one).
If you want to do a break test, Iâd glady send it to you !
Yes you did, time to get a mega jul đ
I use also the megajul from some time already. I have never put the carabiner to belay a second pointing down and through the inside, I put it as other ATCs, just up.
Also the second test, is not like you would normally use the magajul for rapelling, as a nice feature is that it has the blocking mode, and for that you had to put the device in the other direction..it would have been more realistic, and probably ended up with less troubles with the rope.
Good job anyway!! very interesting
Yeah I thought it was just me, but are they using the wrong side for guide mode?
The megajul is set up dangerously incorrectly on guide mode, the way the biner it's oriented would partially prevent the autoblock mode from working.... There's a really clear edelrid video that shows how is supposed to be used!
Impressive..
Oh Snap!
Hey Ryan,
As you know some climbers climb with a bowline knot. If you ever have the chance, can you breaktest one of those?
Would love to see you guys try to break a Petzel iD...It's like a Gri Gri on steroids that's easier to use the handle release device...Instead of the whole device opening like what a Gri Gri does to lock off, the Cam on the inside rotates and that's what gives you the friction to lock onto the rope. You can use a single finger to release the friction instead of needing alot of strength when you're hanging from a Gri Gri.
I wonder if the rope would break. We did a grigri test and the rope broke first. I think all belay devices do that?
@@HowNOT2 Is there a video of a grigri test? I could not find any related data in your slacksnap chart: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1m9MYOhBm3vvBfFsv7jlhBP3oaXvdcBcjsoNSL1SjICE/edit#gid=1132921402
You could make a video about the petzl connect adjust at slacksnap
in the intro!? that canyon jump...how could this be? bunjee rope or what technique was used to get out of this still living?
Hey. Whats the breaking strength of a reverso, as if you are bringing up a second, in auto lock mode, with the device clipped into the anchor. Why arent they rated? I asked a cocky tech eons ago about it, but got a bs reply. They are a load bearing part of the system, without a load rating.
Have yâall done a rescue 8 I think Iâve got a old one some where if you wanna play with it
What about dropping the device on hard floor/ ground many times and then do the test!
many people drop their devices, and there is not much video test on if that compromises the strength?
Ah i wanted to see how much weight does the little wire take to break
great test! Like to see if ATC has the same result
đđŻ
You should break test an acender
Other than appearing as though the carabiner orientation is setup incorrectly, it would be more realistic and interesting if you were able to shock load the devices.
Building a drop test tower so we can do stuff like that!
Im gonna send you a laser pointier so you dont have to touch anything more Lmao!!!!đđ
DO NOT SETUP THIS WAY
This setup is completely wrong. Read the instructions again. The the big steel locking carabiner the rope rubs around is not supposed be between the two strands of rope. That actually prevents the rope from pinching off itself in guide mode. And on top of that the rope is running right across the screwgate.
Fix your setup before other people think this is the way to do it.
DO NOT SETUP THIS WAY
Took me 12 times watching. I was like that jewel isn't new. Looks totally scratched (and thus desheaths the rope) . But the one at 22 seconds is pre-test/new and 38 seconds tore up/post test.
One question is with the carabiner being side loaded, is the text or something on it scratching the sheath (or as you say static is more prone to de-sheathing)
Edit: ok seeing the instructions image by Mike, I see that was right. Though still as he says not a real life situation. Good to know it's typical of other devices i.e. the grigri. I'm just not used to guide mode.
can you test the ratio of force when belaying. So we can see hard would it be to hold the brake for a big fall when belaying.
Theoretically there shouldn't be any forces on the brake, because the rope gets jammed inbetween the carabiner and the belay device. For that reason you should only used carabiners specified by Edelrid.
Surely these should be shock tested not under consistent load. When in climbing do you ever slowly put 8.5kn of for on any equipment?
They've explained this, they don't have a way of testing shock loads, their dynamometer doesn't have a high enough sample rate.
SOOOOOO... I always wonderd what would happen when the climber falls into a bolt that's set in a big piece of rock not connected to the rest of the wall. Say a really big boulder with 4 tons weight. And the fall pulls out that boulder which then falls together with the climber. -- Would the belay device hold and at least the belayer have a chance to survive?
Would make an interesting test - roll bolted boulders down a rock and try to catch them with the mega jul :)
The device wouldnât break, but the belayer might after they got launched up the rock face into a boulder.
Edelrid, that's german engineering. So what exactly did you expect?
The big difference is that the Edelried is made out of steel. It's more bendy end less brittle compared to aluminium.
deutsche wertarbeit
Iâve been climbing with a petzl shunt as a top rope solo device but have always been nervous about it. Itâs only aluminum for Peteâs sake. Iâm not sure if Iâll continue to do so without a back up or if Iâll just get something else but would you guys mind doing a video of a break test On a Petzl Shunt? Iâll be on the look out! Thanks!!!
Definitely have a backup mate. The shunt has a big potential to slip, at least mine with my ropes
@@sergarcarr Apreciate it. Yeah, I've got 5 kiddos to go home to. This ain't like it used to be when I was younger. Got to get home!
@@kazhatfield1346 glad to hear that man!
Have you ever tried to get in contact with petzl engineers? These guys need to have a shit ton of data, there's got to be some they can afford to share.
no manufacturer wants to share with us haha
I see you do the figure 8 that works just with 75% of the rope involved. Maybe you can do a test with this form and with the one that works with the 100% of the rope involved. Check that part of the knot havenât worked in the strength
That thing can take so much load.
Shame its a wire stripper for rope đ
29kn youre welcome
Can you test gri gri?
Frankly speaking, I don't get the test at all. Forces in guide mode are much lower usually than in lead, so what did you proof here? If the force is about 8 kn you bring up hang an elephant with this device and it will hold.
There really is no point other than people wanting to see belay gear broken. We definitely don't put enough force while belaying in guide mode to break it. Interesting what happens though when we do pull a lot though.
Is it possible that you do break test of climbing pitons and maybe diferent sizes and shapes? That could be good with camalots video that you did :)
Testing some nasty old rusty pitons would also be sweet đ
Plenty good enough
Man as long as you break *anything* edelrid im happy hahahaha. Thrash that shyt đđđđ
The second hole is not for belaying 2 people. It's for one climber using 2 ropes if there is a lot of zig zaging om the route. It then reduces rope friction as you will alternate what rope you secure to the wall depending on if you are left or right in the zig zag pattern.
Actually, it is. If there are 3 climbers, the leader then belays two followers from the top.
I don't think im met anyone who belays 2 people at once the 2 ropes is uselly for twin rope trad climbing
Sure you do belay two people from the top when you are three climbers. No problem.
id actually prefer my 30ÂŁ hardware to break first rather than my 150ÂŁ rope đ
You defo nedd to re-do this test with a correct setup of the guide mode. Think that would make a good bit of difference
Well,... it is made of stainless steel & not aluminum. I'd recommend Clipping 2 steel biners through the rope slots to find out its MBS
"kilo newtents"
I try, but it keeps coming out like that!
That looks like a fuster cluck and I would not even give it a minutes attention.
Remember that strength alone is not the only criteria for a rope system.
We seem to always be complicating the most basic things.
Go back and learn a true body rappel then graduate to friction devices.
Learn to use ascenders and throw out your prussics.
Wrap the rope around your leg for added control.
Rappelling is stupidly simple. Belaying is stupidly simple.
All of these devices are far stronger than the human body can stand.
...................I know, I know. Here come all of the "yeah but what ifs" crowd........
So be it.
@2:00 you say you have two ropes for two people. I think it's more common where there is 1 climber on 2 ropes. This happens when your placing gear for protection but some of it is way out left and some out right. With one rope it ends up zig zagging which really drags. With two ropes there is more weight but less drag and it's often worth it. This also means you can use smaller ropes (see link), but I've only ever seen two standard ropes being used beacuse, well you already have them.
www.vdiffclimbing.com/half-ropes/
Half ropes. Could be more of a European thing. Iâve learned it this way and I like them for multi pitch climbing. They are also great because you can use the full length (e.g. 60m) for abseiling in case you have to retreat or otherwise want to get down from the top of a route. They also have a softer catch so should put less stress on gear. Mine have 33% of dynamic stretch, so theoretically if you take a fall (even a small one) into the full 60m of rope youâd fall a further 20m :D
How did I end up here?
I don't like the operation of this device
Guide mode is not supposed to catch any kind of lead fall, top rope only. Strong enough for me..
I've had an edelrid rep tell me that they don't either, thus, the gigajul.
I'm a fan. I got one of these because I liked the break assist with the ATC style. Never liked grigri's.
I'm a fan...really basic concept that anyone who has used an ATC before can pick up and understand. Found it catches falls really well and pays out slack really well when leading, only downside is the lever action to lower can be hard when lowering a heavier person if you havent got strong wrists..leads to some slowish and bumpy lowers for me
Auch .. not so much of proper use ...
If you see your rope doing what that black rope was doing...maybe you should go on a freakin diet đ€
love your channel but i am unsettled by the lack of eye protection. i know you stand well clear most of the time but please take care.
They leave the room during tests.
Except for very few tests, we stand in the other room. Even eye wear doesn't protect us enough for me to want to be in there.
yeah, more like how not to break testing belay devices. Wrong setup and comlete lack of knowledge about he thing of interest. A bit disappointing guys...