MegaJul, belaying off the anchor with a skinny single rope
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- čas přidán 20. 08. 2024
- This video focuses on a single aspect of the MegaJul's setup. It is not a complete tutorial.
If you're looking for an overview on all the MegaJul's functionality, watch Edelrid's video here: www.edelrid.de/...
For the complete guide to the MegaJul, RTFM: www.edelrid.de/...
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I made this video back when Edelrid introduced this in their user manual, and I wanted to explain more clearly what Edelrid was trying to say there. However, after a summer of climbing, personally I've reverted to the traditional mode of clipping the brake carabiner (behind, rather than around, the belay device,) mostly because my single ropes aren't that skinny, and I like the ability to "ratchet" the brake carabiner if the follower needs some slack.
It would be ideal if we knew when you really needed to clip this new special way, vs when you did not. The big outstanding question is: what rope diameters does this really affect? I'm afraid I have no idea. Pull-tests and/or drop-tests with a bunch of different ropes would be necessary to answer that question, and I don't have that kind of equipment. Even if someone did (like Edelrid themselves) it would be hard to say conclusively what diameter rope needs the brake-carabiner clipped in a way that would prevent it from flipping, since two ropes of similar diameters but different brands may be firmer or softer, changing their ability to squeeze past the other strand. I'm sure fat 10.2mm ropes are safe, with no risk of failing to auto-block. I'm not sure about, say, the 8.5mm Beal Opera, or the 9.2mm Petzl Volta. Who knows? Would a 9.2mm Mammut Revelation behave exactly the same as a Petzl Volta? Again, no one knows.
So I'm afraid I don't have a concrete recommendation, other than: if you're using a "skinny" rope (and there's no data on how skinny is skinny enough to matter) you should either clip the new way shown in this video, or you should not assume your guide-mode device is truly auto-blocking. (i.e. never take your hands off the brake strand, even though it's in "guide mode.") If your rope is not "skinny" then don't worry about it, go ahead and clip the way you always have been.
Hey Rob!
Saw this video few days ago. Thought it was pretty interesting but figured it would never happen to me just because I don't use skinny ropes. Today while needing to lower my follower who was stuck awkwardly between two moves, the belay device (Mammut Smart Alpine) would not budge off its locked position, stuck into quite a lot of tension. After a lot of fiddling around with the device, unable to lower my follower, I saw the follower rope starting to squish through the side of the pinched rope, slowly budging below it. Recalling your video, I caught what was happening and setup a prusik backup immediately in case something failed. I eventually managed to tension the prusik to create slack in the device, backing it with another knot to defeat the autolock. At this point the rope had virtually slipped all the way through. Was it not for your video, I may not have picked up on it. Surprised that this issue has gone unadressed for so long. To fix it I had to entirely remove the carabiner, flip the rope back around and re-setup my belay device. I was using a 9.8 Single Rope, dry treated, 1 year of use (almost no fuzz), through an inverted Mammut Smart Alpine and it managed to slip under the right conditions. Will actually probably switch to a DMM Pivot because of how difficult it was to defeat the autoblock to lower my follower, and I don't want to go through this incident again. Thanks for the informative video, just to let you know that this could very well happen under normal circumstances! Thanks!
this video is 100% quality. great work with the presentation and clearly labeled demonstrations of the problem and solutions. love your work Rob.
For what it is worth, I have had a carabiner flip like this when using the megajul. Fortunately, I was able to quickly back up the megajul with a munter to keep my partner safe. Thanks for the nice video!
Fascinating, thanks for sharing!! Can you remember what the diameter of the rope you were using was? I'd be extremely curious to know.
The rope was loaded and 9.something in diameter and I was ratcheting the carabiner up and down to slightly lower my partner. That's when the rope strands switched orientations. After that happened, I found out that the instructions had changed since I purchased the device. Yikes!
This video may save lives. I was not aware of this, thanks a lot. I guess this incident cannot happen with a double rope, which is fortunately how the guide setup is mostly used.
For what it's worth, this problem is addressed is "The Mountain Guide Manual" by super-highly regarded IFMGA guides Marc Chauvin and Rob Coppolillo, which is saying something, because, this book is intended for highly experienced climbers intending to pursue guide certification (which is NOT inexpensive, I might add). If it almost "never" happened, ti's unlikely they'd address the issue. Like others here, I have never once seen it happen in the field, but I'm glad I came across this video. Thanks for posting it, Bob - you presented it in a much clearer fashion than any book can do.
FYI you can find the section called "Protecting Against Plaquette Failure" on pages 78 - 81.
Thx Rob, that's a very good presentation of the issue! Now the warning makes 100% sense.
Ryan Jenks in his How Not To Highline videos on YT tested various belay devices in various failure modes. In the mode where he pulled through the guide hole and into the device, the BD ATC Guide was the strongest at about 29-30 kN. The Petzel Reverseo failed at something just over 12kN, however it was slightly compromised in a previous test. Yet it was clear that the BD ATC Guide was the strongest belay device. A further note, the wire on the BD ATC Guide that is mentioned in this video as no being strong actually held 10 kN. However, that was with a sample size of one. They joked about it being possible to use it as an emergency nut.
Incredibly useful video, and great explanation of where the failure can happen with the Megajul and similar devices...thanks a lot Rob 🙌🏽
I had this happen with a 9.8mm 35m gym rope. I was using it on a short wall (didn't feel like hauling up almost 60m for teaching rappelling off the short wall) and the climber bounced a little on the rope. It flipped on the MegaJul. At the gym the other night, my buddy and I were able to recreate the situation with relative ease.
While the core of that gym rope is fairly soft, I will be henceforth clipping the biner through the wire.
We couldn't reproduce this with his ATC or my Reverso 4 - presumably because of the tapered (and toothed, though probably irrelevant in this case) design. The placement of the wire also almost forces one to clip it as well (you really have to try not to as Rob did in the video).
When putting the follower on belay just grab a bight from the brake end, shove it through the second slot and clip the biner through that as well...
Excellent video, thank you for making this!
Bomber. Thanks dude
amazing video, than you...
CHEERS for this video!! really good
Life saver!! Hero right here!!
Thank you for the informational video
The problem REALLY start with using a too thin rope. That already compromises the self breaking function, as the 2 rope ends are allowed to lay aside of each other, instead of on top.
So this is a secondary problem.
Interesting though. Never imagined this could happen.
Yet, every year, rope companies force us to use thinner and thinner ropes and while reducing the amount of nylon used, they increase the price of the rope. Bring my back my 10.5 mm.
subscribed great vid got an edelrid and dint know about this
This shouldn't be a problem if climbing alpine with half-ropes, right?
Considering this can only happen with ropes thicker than 8mm, I can't think of any single rated rope that I'd be using to climb on - there'd be two strands, completely preventing this from happening even if you didn't clip the wire loop, which again is a total impossiblity as it'd be between the two ropes.
Anthony Eccles I had a guide use double ropes for the two of us, following up the pitches. I suspect the rationale was that he is expected to free solo, and we're on top rope.
Whats with the silent treatment, I wish you would speak throughout the vid. and explain what you are doing as you are doing it, the subtitles are fine but voice narration is better, just a suggestion for future vids.
I am not a speed reader
how easy is this to release?
Unfortunately, it’s really not easy to release or pay out slack in this configuration, which is a big downside. You completely lose the ability use the quick “ratchet” trick (where the brake carabiner is pumped up and down to feed a tiny amount of rope backwards while under load.) If you want to fully release the device (i.e. to lower a longer distance) using another sling or biner for leverage in the small “unlocking eye” of the device, you can still do so, but be careful: in all such “guide-mode” devices, levering the device like this transitions very quickly from fully locked-off to fully open and running free, and has a high risk of dropping your climber. If I need to lower a follower a big distance (something that rarely comes up,) I prefer to get the “guide mode” belay device out of the system entirely:
(1) Tie a catastrophe knot in the brake-strand, about 5 feet away from the belay device. It should never get weighted, but it’s there if you screw anything up. A figure-8 on a bight to a locker on the anchor works well.
(2) Take a spare cordelette or double runner, friction-hitch it to the loaded strand of rope (klemheist works well.)
(3) Add another HMS-shaped locker back on your anchor, bring that cordelette or double runner up to it, and tie a munter-mule-overhand, so that it will be capable of holding the load.
(4) Transfer the load from the “guide mode” belay device to load-releasing-hitch you just installed. Lever the belay device using another biner or sling through it’s “unlocking eye” so that the rope in the belay device becomes completely slack, and all the weight is held by the klemheist.
(5) Take the belay device entirely out of the system. Where the belay device was, put a munter-hitch in the rope to a locking carabiner on the anchor. Ideally, tie this off with a mule knot and overhand too.
(6) Transfer the load from the klemheist to this new munter-mule-overhand by release the munter-mule-overhand you tied earlier. Once unweighted, undo the klemheist and put away that cordelette or double runner.
(7) Finally, undo the catastrophe knot, and undo the last munter-mule-overhand, so that you’re left with just a munter hitch that’s directly on the anchor, which gives you a very controlled lower, much safer than the relatively uncontrolled lower of a belay device in “guide mode.”
The above steps for converting to a munter for lowering work whether the brake-carabiner on the "guide mode" belay device was clipped traditionally, or clipped in this new way that Edelrid suggested. Of course, that's just one of many different "right ways" to perform a lower. That's just one option. If you choose to do it differently, that's fine, it's up to you.
Back to the "ratchet" trick though: Maybe it's worth always carrying a rope fat enough that you can ignore this video and clip the brake carabiner in the traditional way, so that you do not lose the ability to do the "ratchet" trick.
For me, i would say i just use the munter 90% of the time, in the first place. If you just push the rope a bit it doesn't kink. I can't see any disadvantage
True! That's a very good way to go. If you wanted, there's even a way to make a munter-hitch like that auto-blocking, similar to "guide mode" devices: www.climbing.com/skills/auto-blocking-munter/
almost convinces me not to get the device. looks like finding a design flaw then putting a bandaid on it.
It's true that the mega jul is not good in guide mode. Besides the problem outlined in the vidoe, it also has a huge amount of friction for guide. However, it excels in lead belay (lighter than grigir, better bite then ATCguide or reverso). My partner and I share a mega jul and a reverso. The leader takes the reverso and the follower belays with the mega jul. And then we can both do 2-stranded rap down.
Not sure if anything in this video is correct as you are not using th device how it was designed to be used.
How so?