Who is Destroying this Jungle in Micronesia?
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- čas přidán 29. 09. 2023
- I made this episode because I sat down with two men over dinner and grilled them about some local xenophobic rumours I'd been hearing about them. Now we're mangrove brothers. Although I'm not sure they know that.
This one is a bit of a breather episode. If you know anything about me, you'll know that means to brace yourself for what's coming.
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Thanks for watching! You're clearly one of the good ones.
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So they need more area to cut from...and maybe paid jobs planting baby mangroves?
Wise people plant trees under who's shade they will not sit - credited to a Greek proverb (?)
What a good way to frame the age old debate of preservation vs conservation. John Muir and Gifford Pinchot both spoke into Teddy Roosevelt's ear about these topics years and years ago. Muir wanted full preservation; no commerical harvesting. Pinchot was a conservationist and wanted controlled harvesting and exlcuding only select unique or vital areas. That is why the US has a patchwork of both preservist National Parks and conservist national forests.
Edit: fixed the term. I was saying "reservation", but I knew it was wrong. The term is "preservation".
One of the first things Muir did in Yosemite was put in a saw mill and cut trees to build his buildings. Do as I say not as I do. Now a weekend in Yosemite is a lot like a trip to Disneyland with wall-to-wall people.
Great observation.
I didn't know this. I'm going to use this in a coming episode. Thank you for the comments!
@@RareEarthSeries thank you. Happy I could add something to the discussion. Both sides obviously have merit. You can't save and maintain an ecosystem without money, but you can only extract so much from an ecosystem before it becomes irreparably harmed. So you have to balance extraction vs preservation. Even national parks which function as preserves are struggling with tourism booms as increased foot and road traffic is leading to significant damage and overcrowding in the most popular parks.
@RareEarthSeries as a natural resources manager for 25 years, and a fan of your channel, I would love to see that. There is an incredible amount of history between manipulation of natural environments and subsisting on those environments. Love your channel ❤️ dude.
So interesting. One of those things that an outsider separate from the local culture would never have thought about, and nobody's really to blame. Cool that you've been able to help bridge that gap a bit
So arrogantly thinking you can save the world and implementing some action that you don't even bother to see if it actually is working is not worthy of blame? I think we used to call arrogance and carelessness sins...
This is why it’s so important to include local stakeholders in discussions whenever you are doing field research in an area where people live
I had a discussion once with a researcher from NYSERDA (a public/private organization in NYS that works on energy efficiency). He was pitching CFL bulbs over incandescent, but I had electric heat, and I'd noticed since I'd switched my apartment was always cold in the winter. My apartment was designed and built in the early 80s. We eventually did get retrofit to natural gas, but my apartment was way more comfortable with traditional light bulbs and electric heat (at least in the winter... if I was designing a home without any regulations today I think I'd have lamps that could toggle between bulbs... LEDs in the summer, but incandescent or even heat lamps on a few key bulbs in the winter.)
More importantly though, I think he kind of missed his own point with his presentation because he was looking at it from just one side of the issue. He was talking about a city owned housing project that he'd been called in to assess. It was costing the city a fortune to heat, so NYSERDA came in and made a bunch of suggestions- more insulation, new windows, new furnace for the building... and the city made the improvements, and... no improvement in the heating costs. He went back down to see what was happening and saw that in the middle of the winter lots of the tenants had windows wide open (to smoke, or just to get some air flow). His solution was to meter the units individually. The overall rent was lowered, and tenants had to start paying their own heating bill. His take away was that tenants should pay their own bill... which is fine... except the only reason the city spent all the money to upgrade the building in the first place was because it was costing them, as landlords, lots of money to heat.
I'm on disability and live in subsidized housing where I pay my own heating bill... and a few years back my (private) landlord got a huge grant to go from electric to gas (heat exchanger). He went with the lowest bid and pocketed a lot of money in the deal. Our bills did go down, but our heat allowance went way down, so we as tenants ended up right back where we started, except we lost a whole closet each to a furnace (we've lost 2 closets since I've lived here). This was all before the big improvements in solar... there were grants for big solar projects and for single family units at the time, but our complex fell between the size of the two grant programs. So, natural gas was cleaner than what was producing electricity at the time, so as an energy initiative it was successful, at least short term, but as an anti-poverty scheme it just made a landlord a lot richer.
And we do get HEAP for our energy bills, which are now low enough that the HEAP runs a surplus. National Grid gets a check, and holds onto the money (presumably earning interest on it), at one point we'd gotten a whole year ahead on our balances when they did the extra bonuses during the pandemic, so we really aren't paying our own bills anyway. If they'd asked any of us what would happen we could have told them. From an energy perspective, at least, it was a win (although now greener technology would work better than natural gas). It really screwed us though. We lost a closet and the installation was a nightmare. Our apartments were torn up for months. The furnaces, being the cheapest ones available, have pretty regular problems. Always talk to all the people with stakes in an issue.
There is an important amd relevant fishing technique that could apply to this, its rational fishing zones. Every few months the allowed zone is different and it can be a loop of 3 or 4 or more. Research showed that fish populations thrive doing that. I bet the same would apply to mangroves. Harvest a few spots for a few months then move. They will recover
👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼That is very close to traditional fishing management! Areas would be declared "tabu" or off limits for part of the year, then opened once stocks had replenished, or a breeding season was finished. Creating permanent no-fishing zones has created problems and resentment here.
The Chinese fleet is working hard, to make the idea irrelevant.
On the other hand, trees can't swim.
This similar concept is emerging in Midwestern agriculture; a rotation of crop, pasture, and prairie.
I’be experienced similar in my every day life. I’m studying engineering in school, and on internships I’ve really learned to talk to the people whose decisions you’ll affect. You can work on a project redesigning a certain part for 3 months, but you won’t have the same perspective as the person who has made that part every day for 7 years. Different perspectives are valuable, not having a college education doesn’t mean they can’t point things out that you hadn’t considered.
This channel more than any other keeps showing me how, regardless of where you go, for every selfish egotist, you will find good people who truly try to do the right thing.
It truly helps my fight back my internal cynic which had almost entirely consumed me in the past.
Just to see that so many of us, however imperfect we all might be, are trying, started to give me hope again for this experiment called humanity.
And we have to never stop talking to each other.
They're a pretty big deal in Florida, as anyone who knows anything about fishing here will tell you. They have been protected from individual property owners for a long time, yet somehow large developers seem to be able to bribe local governments into letting them destroy these critical trees because they interfere with the view from waterfront property. Sadly we continue to destroy aquatic plants, spill oil, and dump sewage and radioactive mining waste into Tampa Bay for the worst reasoning throughout history: Think of all the money!
I've learned more about the world from this channel than thirteen years in public school ever even tried to teach me.
Do an episode on how putting out the fires in California has created so much fuel load in the forest that when it does ignite it burns with unimaginable intensity totally killing off everything taking it much longer than normal to recover. Fire is a natural part of the cycle in the forest that happens on a regular basis but the minute someone builds a few homes out there we fly in huge air tankers dumping retardant to protect them.
The state also reduced the amount of prescribed burns and Bush clearing due to pressure from enviromentalists.
@@danf7411 What negative effects of prescribed burns are there that made them decide that? I'm surprised you can even insure a home in those areas if there aren't regular prescribed burns in the area.
@@pleasejustletmebeanonymous6510the smoke. Thats basically it. But if your a state at risk of millions of acres burning and entire towns and cars and everything burning, i imag8ne the smoke of leaves and grass is alot healthier. Some people dont think
@@skie6282 hah that's bizarre, although those people sound like the exact opposite of environmentalists then. California just has way too many people. I suppose they've reached a point where there are no good options. Every decision will kill people and disrupt ecological systems. So pick your poison (literally) I guess. 🤷♂
@@pleasejustletmebeanonymous6510 They reduced it because the fire service deemed it unsafe to do so. Fire service estimated that in the worst-case scenario, they did not have the resources on hand to actually contain the planned controlled burns, and so they were not done. Weather patterns for years leading to the crisis had been poorer than before, so the original strategy of waiting bad seasons out and making up in the next did not work. At the same time, federal funding was cut because a certain national leader was having political spats with the state, when *additional* total funding was needed to get the resources to continue, then later, even more to catch up.
Best part is, I could just as well be talking about Australia two years before California... apparently no one learned their lesson...
Best channel on this planet. Criminal how you don't have millions of views.
'Since when does Rare Earth provide information?' Only always, Evan, only always. Glad your drinking habits had a positive effect.
It always bothers me when people decide the only way to do conservation is to kick off all people and manage the land like some sort of theme park. Humans and nature can live together just fine, so long as things don't get overpopulated (which seems like is very much so not a problem for Kosrae and many other Pacific islands). Hopefully that attitude will change as people see the damage from the sort of theme park esque management of various American national parks and see the success of various local community management schemes throughout the world.
The problem i have with some conservation groups is they want an area left untouched and ban everything when allowing felling a clearing will actually end up with a healthier and more divergent area.
That's a great thought to have in mind when dealing with conservation, restoration, and rewilding. It's a tough idea to face - the thought that you could be doing more harm than good even when your all important data suggests otherwise, and it's radical as hell to face it and accept the challenge and find out if you're wrong.
Rare Earth is the one channel I don’t wait for a little downtime to watch.
💯 sometimes I’ll think about waiting on one as I scroll through and then decide to settle in and enjoy
Especially the short ones. No excuse not to find out.
I think it is important for you to mention that “mangrove” is a term for many different tree species that shelter the shoreline, and that in this specific case, it is unclear if you are talking about a group of species or a single species
I loved this video of yours though, just presenting a suggestion for clarity
I think that in the context of the video telling which form of mangrove it is wouldn't change the thesis or message in any way. As I say at the start, I don't really provide information. I just tell a story.
Well done and well said. I've had similar discussions with local people about fish conservation, turtles, food trees, etc. Bringing a conservation strategy in from outside, without taking local conservation practices almost always creates the kind of frustration-from both sides- that you describe.
Thank you for making this!
Cheers from Guam! 🇬🇺
This shows the absolute essential nature of community engagement before doing any kind of intervention. We discuss it a lot in the context of public health but its good to see the principles in other fields as well! The community will always know the most about their context especially indigenous people who know the history of the area.
You are my favourite channel! Keep up the good work 👍
I always love seeing you uploaded a new video. Thanks
This channel is always such a treasure
Great video man, nicely put together!
*"Backward Arrows"* was written by
Evan "Directionally Challenged" Hadfield
It's everyone else who is wrong, not our heroic arrower
I feel like there's deep meaning ⬅️ here
@@RareEarthSeries
You rebel
I remember when my mom took me to visit the island of Aldabra, and she was teaching me about the different mangrove species (red, black, and white, if I recall correctly; this was over 30 years ago) and how the different species each had their own niches as far as depth of water and salinity and other factors, that there wasn’t just a single mangrove forest but rather several different forests that were intermeshed with each other. I’m wondering if the locals are harvesting one specific species of mangrove, or equally from all, and if the conservation efforts in Micronesia are taking into account those usage patterns? It could be that the outermost (that is, living in the deepest water) species is the one needing the most protection to control erosion but the locals could harvest trees closer to shore with less impact, because they are closer shore. This is all total guesswork, obviously real data is needed, I’m just riffing on the idea that the picture is more complex if the differences between mangrove species is taken into consideration.
Love these fantastic videos
Great episode man! Hi Kata! We have great memories of mangroves from Senegal
As far as I know conserving something, or protecting something stop the regularly-scheduled Forest Clearing and controlled burning in California, and look at the results major forest fires. Where I don't believe in recklessly destroying everything, nor do I believe in over protecting things. There needs to be balance.
That was so pleasant that I am now positively *dreading* Saturday. Thanks, Evan and Kata!
Great video, keep up the good work!
the insight about conservation is really great!
Just gotta say, the direction of these arrows confuses me every time. Great video though!
Every time someone is confused by my arrows my grinchlike heart grows three sizes
How ironic that here on the island of Hawaii, what little mangrove exists is eradicated as an invasive species thru government grants. In my youth in New Caledonia ,I remember climbing thru dark forests of endless mangrove ,. I’m sure the culture of whom you refer , regardless of education , know where their” bread gets buttered” Thanks for all your contents!
Is that ironic?
I think that's because mangrove trees aren't native to Hawaii
There are enough comments to let you know how well done and important this video is. Thank you and Kata for bringing this and all (most) other experiences you share to the forefront. (prayer hands emoji)
Thanks for the nice video big bro
adding ''savior of the mangrove'' to your already growing résumé might feel a bit grandiose, but not entirely innacurate
great as always
in one day I encounter the idea about noble savage, first on Twitter and then this video. really interesting idea and also video.
Conservation and reservation has brought about uncomfortable issues to the continent of Africa. I see it as a kind of eco imperialism. Africans have lived with our flora and fauna for centuries with no problems then the people of the west swarm in and dictate how we should live.
As a child of the land I am restricted in where I can go, farm, which wood I can use for my house, which animal to love and dislike depending on the tastes and trends of the west, etc etc all the while it is cheaper to find all that is grown on my land in western countries which I am allowed to import at the cost of an arm and a leg. We want the west to leave us alone to manage or mismanage our own affairs. We have been made to allow our lands to be mined, our fauna, poached and Disneyfied, our rivers polluted and our seas over fished . It’s okay if the culprits are from the west. It prohibited if the locals benefit from their lands. It’s a sorry state.
I lived on Kosrae for a while. It's really nice to see someone do a piece on it. I care very deeply about it, miss it and treasure its well-being. I also hope the Pizza and the Nautilus is still as good as it used to be.
"...because science is better when we include all of the variables..." TRUTH really love your perspective on this.
🤣😂 ... you go Evan ... ❤ ... and again, as always, thank you.
I really enjoyed this video it was quite sweet
That was very interesting.
#RareMangrove episode of #RareEarth, Thank you for the great content. I ALWAYS learn something new from watching Rare Earth, I will always be grateful for that
Awesome humorous learning too..
Thank you
good one.
Another banger
Thanks, evans ex girlfriend, for causing the creation of this episode in some way. Interesting stuff!
Maybe I’m just weird this way but if I were assigned to make an impact in a foreign land then talking to the locals would be the first thing I would do. It’s practically guaranteed that they know things I don’t since they live there. I’d also want to make sure they know I’m not going to mess up their lives in some way.
Theory is a very different thing than practice, I find. For someone in control of their career, for sure. But for a government employee on a strict schedule? Less simple.
I'm a conservation biologist, and whilst this is absolutely the approach the vast majority of us would like to take, we rarely have the freedom to do so. Conservation work is extremely labor intensive and time consuming, and typically we're sent to a location for a relatively short period of time to conduct a specific study before returning to our own country. Conservation also has a pretty high turnover rate (especially for work in remote locations); the people doing the work often don't stay in one place long enough to get to know the locals. But we do absolutely see local knowledge as invaluable, no one knows the landscape better than the people who have lived in it for generations.
Thankfully, my government has mostly come to understand that working with local & indigenous groups is integral to successful conservation outcomes, so where I live & work, that is usually factored into the work, but not every government funding body around the world has come around to that reality yet.
Cheers man....
So there were was a positive twist to it. Good
Well, yeah, of course. Ah hell, we all gone die....
there is truth to sitting down over some drinks fuelling understanding.
sometimes even without a shared language.
Poor Kata!🤣🤣🤣
i shouldn't be laughing at the thumbnail but i did. awesome video :>
“Healthiest mangroves anywhere” is quite a stretch of a claim, seeing that you’ve only ever seen a small subset of mangroves, ones that aren’t even being actively afforested but instead cut down for firewood
It isn't my claim but the claim of the scientists studying the mangroves. This isn't my opinion, but the collected data from those who are invested in the survival of mangroves internationally. So I would argue it isn't much of a stretch at all, in fact.
Doing gods work
love the videos! thanks
Thank you.
I wrote a paper in HS about mangroves lol. This was back in the early 2000s and climate change was a word that was only whispered (my dad worked for big oil company, Chevron) and I was trying to talk about how important they are.
the humans living there are a part of the ecosystem just like any other animal... disrupting what they always done is disrupting the system as a whole.
“Most important tree in the ocean” -> is there much competition for that title? 😆
If you share a drink with a stranger, that person is no longer a stranger.
The very fundamental thing about observation is we change the characteristics of what we observe simply by observing that very thing.
This dude and this channel restoring faith in humanity ❤🤟
Evan: This is the most important tree in the ocean!
Algae and Kelp: Ok, you got that one on a technicality…
I met a gang of mudskippers in a mangrove forest once! I will never forget it
I am glad that you got out okay.
Did they have guns?
@@meisteremm no but they stared at me with their weird eyes
a good example of how the 'data driven' method of science with its abstract frame of 'static space' and 'linear time' tends to hermetically seal itself in senseless boxes where all that matters is what's inside. stepping outside of it seems like a big deal, and i'd say you helped that in this occasion as your connection between the finely tuned embodied perception of the locals paired with your capability of story telling substantially expanded the perspective for the involved scientists.
now another thing we could be doing is thinking without the box, spherically. if you'd like to find out more about that, take a look at buckminster fuller's synergetics or at least a video or two of mine, bridging that gap...
You have a nice voice.
I don't believe you but I do appreciate it
This story is why i studied what i do ❤
The paradox of conservation.
' 'Cus since when does Rare Earth provide information' got me giggling 😃 lol
The world's problems can be solved over a beer. I want to be at the negotiating table thanks...hic.
They use mangroves for firewood because it has high energy content, if they convert it into charcoal, mangrove is the best kind of wood for it.
The neighbouring islands with nearly identical cultures, histories, and ecologies don't really use the mangrove, however. They consider it a trash wood. I think it mostly just comes down to culture.
That's interesting. Mangroves are very good for firewood, maybe they have an even better one on their island.
I like the disclaimer
This may not be the most important story, but what is? There's an underlying optimism about cooperation and earnest human nature here that I needed after an emotional news cycle today. It gives me hope that everyday acts of kindness and understanding can lead to change. How many strangers and acquaintances can you treat well enough for them to help another? Enough to keep the cycle going if only we look out for one another and constructively criticize.
I heard that the furthest north-growing mangroves are in Delaware.
we leave in the island majority of the poor population resort for mangroves as firewood for it is cheaper compared to gas & electricity, sadly locals dont know about science thats why despite this climate change studies they will priorities on feeding their empty stomach rather than minding regulations. the good thing is that local knew what type of mangroves best suited in different salinity, temperature & dept, compared to those goverment officials who organize tree planting but do not mind the species they were planting causing only few sappling of mangroves survived...
Yes sir! The best channel ever has new goodies for us!!!!
This is such an elite standard to maintain
Another video :D
Pohnpei uh? Oh I know the Nan Madol episode is coming ;)
Arrows are hard
Another uniting factor of humanity across all levels of income, education, and culture; the tragedy of the commons.
mangrove brothers
Its the only tree in the ocean. Lol
should have asked the powerfish hes an expert on mangroves
Great video but aren’t all the arrows pointing the wrong way? 😅
It's everyone else who is wrong, these arrows are pristine
Real conservation is integration, not predator behavior nor sanctuary behavior
woooooo! saved the planet once again. 😎 count it.
Hmmmm, so it is fine for Micronesians to continue to use their preferred energy source, allow it is said to damage the environment, because of "culture".
But Europeans/North Americans/Australians/etc. are expected to stop using their preferred energy source(s), presumably because their "culture" doesn't matter.
Yes, because their preference is sustainable and renewing and ours isn't. I think it would be wonderful if our energy sources were all so replenishing and locally accessible.
The larger a state is the less flexible it is, and the US is a very large state indeed.
👍👍💯💯❤❤✔✔
It seems likely that the mangroves preceded humans on the islands, and were healthy when conserved previously (ie no humans cutting them for firewood because there were no humans living there to cut them.) Therefore, to say that conservation is the cause of decline is profoundly illogical. Human behaviour is the cause of decline (assuming there is decline).
I am not saying that “locking places up” is necessarily the best or most appropriate move either. Just that there seems to be a logical failure on blaming any decline on conservation when in all likelihood there was no decline when the entire island(s) were “conserved” through lack of human presence.
Human behaviour preceded the conservation efforts, and in that period they achieved a sustainable forest of mangroves despite their cuttings. Since the arrival of the conservation, however, they've found that system to be breaking down. That's precisely the point, yes.
In this instance, the mangrove only went under actual threat in a long-term sense after the arrival of the conservation officers. To say human behaviour is the cause of the decline is a copout that will never realistically solve the problem, as that behaviour was, at least in regards to mangroves, sustainable within the ecosystem they lived in. As humans are a part of the environment, the real question isn't if they destroy it to survive, but if they can find a way to do it that sustains itself in the long-term.
@@RareEarthSeries I think what it comes down to is: my answer is logically correct (human behaviour is the cause) and your answer is practically correct (we cannot separate humans anyway and we are now a part of every environment we live in so we have to find and do things in ways that are workable.)
I think I have “read” things into this that may not have been there (or may not have been in the video at least. It was hinted at by some other commenters.) If people use things like this to argue that we should never simply conserve/exclude then that is likely to produce bad outcomes in some circumstances. Though maybe not this circumstance.
Having sailed a bit of the Florida Keys, I strongly believe those Mangrove Trees will be fine, even if we Humans lose many of our Islands to our Ignorance & Greed. It's our Children who will Suffer...
Hi!
We're from the government, and we are here to help. Scarier words are hard to find. Good intentions without a broad vision can be detrimental.
I'm not sure if you'll ever read this, but I figured I'd put it out there on the off chance that you do.
My grandfather, who is celebrating his 91st birthday today, is, or at very least was, one of the world's leading experts on Mangroves. I emailed him a link to this video to hear his thoughts on it.
I thought you might like to hear his response. Forgive him if his tone is a little grumpy, he did just turn 91 after all:
Hi ****,
Thanks for the video. It has some lovely pictures of Koserae mangroves but the video is somewhat over hyped. By the way, the mangrove that opens the video is Rhizophora apiculata and there are four or five other species on this tiny volcanic Island in Micronesia.
The point is made in the video that setting aside conservation areas without consultation with the traditional users can cause major problems. There has been a more than 20% decline in mangrove areas world-wide over the last thirty years. This has produced a strong world-wide activist movement to save the existing mangroves. As a result, large mangrove conservation areas have been established with little consideration for the local inhabitants that use the mangrove. It is interesting to note that you cannot remove a mangrove anywhere in Australia without a permit.
The situation in Kosera can be described by what is known as the ‘Tragedy of the Commons’. This is a situation in which individuals with access to a public resource act in their own interest and eventually deplete the resource. In the case of Kosera, the establishment of conservation zones, which cannot be accessed by the locals, means that the remaining mangrove areas will be more heavily exploited. As is pointed out in the video, this will lead to the degradation of the remaining mangrove forest while the conservation areas remain pristine.
The mangroves on Koserae have been established over a couple of thousand years. They have done this by accumulating peat and so building up the land at a rate that keeps up with the sea level rise. The sea level has gone up and down over the years. If the sea level rise is too fast the mangroves retreat and if the sea level rise is very slow the mangroves expand. It has been estimated that the critical rate of mangrove peat accretion is between 2mmy-1 and 10mmy-1. If the sea level rise exceeds this critical rate all the forests of Koserae will retreat landward and reduce rapidly.
Assume the sea level rise by the end of the century, worst case, is 1.3-1.6m. There are approximately 76 years left in this century. The worst case scenario would give a sea level rise of approximately 21mmy-1. This would see the end of the mangroves on Koserae. Like so much of climate change this is all speculation but the contention that mangroves will still be there in a hundred years is dubious. It is likely that exploitation and sea level rise will finish off most of the mangroves but those in the conservation areas will be the last to go.
I hope that you are still pursuing the computer courses. It looks as if there will be a big demand for people in this area. I am trying a course in algorithms but finding it difficult. I think I will stick to mangroves!
Love
Grandad
@sraldleif With respect, your grandfather is mistaken about the situation in Kosrae, as all scientific evidence points to the survival of the mangrove well over a hundred years (as evidenced by the researchers on the ground due to unique local factors). He's speaking in generics as a means of discussing specifics. Of course the conservation areas would be the last to go, that's like saying the dessert you left for last will get eaten last, the point of the video isn't to say that conservation areas don't protect themselves, but rather what they do as a side effect to other areas. To call this the Tragedy of the Commons is a bit of a misrepresentation of what's happening, implying it to be a generic issue, but as the commons provided no tragedy until they were deflated deliberately thats not really the case. The tragedy in Kosrae has been artificially created by our narrowing of the commons, rather than the generic tragedy of common use. It is the restriction on the common use that has led to the increased harvest and unsustainable practices we're now seeing. It's a common phrase to apply in conservation, but not really one that applies here. If anything, your grandfather is somewhat repeating the mistakes of the researchers I met (very common among the previous generation of conservation), even after hearing the mistake. But other than that, I appreciate the thoughts!