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What is NIRODHA SAMAPATTI? by Bhante Punnaji
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- čas přidán 9. 05. 2016
- In attaining Awakening and becoming the Buddha, Prince Siddhārtha had attained the ultimate state in meditation, which is the complete stopping of all sensations and feelings (Saññā Vedayita Nirodha). Upon awakening from this state where the activity called "mind" had stopped completely, he had awakened from the dream of existence. This awakening is the attainment of Nibbāna, by putting an end to existence (Nirodha-samāpatti). The Buddha then went on to teach his disciples a "shortcut" where one can become awakened without having to go through the complete stopping of sensation and feeling (Saññā Vedayita Nirodha).
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Bhante has confirmed to me that Nirodha Samapatti is not a state,it’s a realization/insight on how the self and self reality is constructed by body-mental process. Like looking behind the curtain of the Wizard of Oz, once Dorothy knows, she can’t be fooled anymore believing the. Wizard existed. This is arrived through Vippassana which the Buddha found. The Jhanas/Arupas already existed and founded by Hindu Yogis before him, but it didn’t end sufferings because they’re desiring/stuck on things that are impermanent: ie. the Jhanic or Arupas states, which we all eventually lose after we get up from the cushion no matter how good a meditator we are.
People confused Sanya Vedana Nirodha with Nirodha Samapatti. Sanya Vedana Samapatti is a state of cessation of sensation and perception, it’s almost vegetative, like being in a coma or dreamless sleep, some called it the 9th Jhana. Basically, all mental processes stopped, awareness/consciousness stopped as well, all five aggregates ceases working that you can’t even do Vipassana. This state is impermanent, eventually you have to come out of it to function in the world, therefore cannot be liberation, which is something permanent: Nirodha Samapatti is liberation. Death is the final liberation because all 5 aggregates dissolved. If you know the self never existed, it’s a coming together of 5 aggregates, birth and death doesn’t exist either because it’s all a dream made up of 5 aggregates. Basically.. the matrix!!
Sorry that I rambled on.. I’m a meditator that took 27 years doing all the Jhanas. Arupas and Vipassana to discover this. The literatures and teachings of many teachers out there is not clear on this point of the path at all. It failed to give context to my experience. Bhante had confirmed my experience for me. My sincere thanks to Bhante and whoever uploaded this talk! Sandhu.
Thank you. Its freaking sick living nowadays, when you can came across some youtube video and read the comments like this! Wow)
So, nirodha samapatti its a final insight in anatta or not?
Its different attaning from classical vipassana Fruition cessation? First time when it hits you get stream entry, right?
@@JazzyDef In my experience, you get a momentary glimpse of Nirodha Samapatti when you get stream entry. But only a brief flash. It’s not enough for final liberation because the body-mind conditioning of the 5 aggregates starts up again and take over to co-op the experience, claiming it for the self “I am enlightened”. When in fact people got 1 brief glimpse of it. What just said that is the thoughts (which constructs the self even strongly), because a person not attached to thoughts won’t say that. They know that there is nobody there to be enlightened in the first place. That’s just pure delusion. A lot of people just get caught in this and go out teaching others and create a following. But when you live with them and observe closely, the 3 poison still rise in them. They get angry, controlling when things don’t go their way, greedy, abusive etc.. Hopefully you find a good teacher who warns you about it and you believe him/her. Then you continue to practice without making noise to others about attainments. My teacher warned me and I believed him. Then the next phase is when disorientation occurs where you don’t know what to do next, like walking in 2 worlds. Because not enough insights to liberate. If you’re lucky like me and run into a good teacher who knows what to do, you start doing the Jhanas. As you progressively goes up the Jhanas, the aggregates starts to dissolve one by one, by the 4th Jhanas you have form, perception and consciousness left, no thoughts or feelings remains. Then when you start into the Arupas (formless Jhanas) it progressively eliminates the rest (5th takes away form, 6th and 7th eliminate perception, 8th only a little consciousness left, 9th all 5 aggregates ceases). If you got helped, hopefully you have strong resolve and overcome your mind is freaking out from dissolution of ego(5 aggregates dissolving). Some people end up in psych ward because they’re not prepared for it with a good teacher or context for it. As you exit Nirodha Samapatti and go down the Jhanas again, you apply Vippassana to see how the whole thing kick start again, observing closely how it constructs reality of everything you know: existence itself.
My teacher said to me as I gained this insight: “the past cannot be grasped, the present cannot be grasped, the future cannot be grasped.” Because everything is created by the five aggregates. You really don’t know what real reality is when it’s all mind constructed. The self collapsed and ceases to pretend to represent reality. You can see all the workings of the 5 aggregates as they rise and fall during all your waking and even sleeping hours.
Magga Phala or the fruition of the path is realized, which is basically what occurs after, where you continuously sustain Vippassana outside of sitting meditation at all times. Eventually you come to a point where you’re walking in the world but knows deep down it’s all a dream. Only the present exists, but even that is only through consciousness. The other 4 aggregates ceases to take hold like they do before to represent reality. You experience something close to the 7th Jhanas but in Vippassana during regular life outside of sitting meditation where non-duality is the new way of seeing all experiences.
Sufferings ceases because 3 poison no longer rise and has the same momentum, like channel surfing. You don’t stay on one long enough to get caught in the drama of the matrix. Nirodha Samapatti is the first insight upon stream entry and final insight upon final fruition into Anatta (no self). At stream entry it’s brief. At full fruition, It’s a very clear insight because it’s gained from slowly going up the Jhanas, Arupas and then down. You see it all unfold slowly as long as you can sustain each state for 5-10 minutes to do the observation (Vippassana). If someone practice only Jhanas, they’re too caught up on enjoying it and doesn’t observe the nature of each one. If they only do Vippassana, they don’t have clear or deep enough lenses to observe the gradual falling away of 5 aggregates. A lot of them never get to non-duality. That’s why you have to do both. Most importantly, without Sila, your mind is too disturbed by hindrances to even get into the Jhanas. That’s my experience. I’m just can’t help but keep Sila now because it feels so uncomfortable in the body to break it. It’s not worth it!
Classical Vippassana is actually not that classical. It has its roots in the Vissudhimaga, written in 5th century by a scholar monk Buddhagosa. Later practiced and applied by the Burmese master Mahasi. Most western mindfulness teachers learned from these school.
The Vippassana as Bhante Punnaji teaches, came directly from the oldest Buddhist Text: Nikaya Suttas. That’s the original teachings of the Buddha which emphasized Sila (ethical training), Samadhi/Jhanas (concentration states) and Vippassana (observation for insights). The Burmese and Thai Vippassana skipped the Jhanas. Everyone thinks it’s classical but it’s not the original teachings. That’s why few people come to fruition or attainments from their practice. Modern Vippassana came from the Burmese tradition.
Find someone from Ajahn Chah Thai Forest Tradition or Sri Lanka that relies on the Nikaya Sutta. They’re the Theravada Tradition that does all three training or a Zen master from Rinzai tradition, they do all three. I’m from Rinzai tradition, after kensho (ie. Zen’s equivalent of stream entry, we do the formless Jhanas and Vippassana but they have another non-pali name for it.)
If you are a sincere practitioner and only care about the end of sufferings (basically free of delusions, greed/grasping or anger/resistance), your best pointer is that if you see these arising in daily life, you know you’re not there yet. I’ve come across too many teachers that still has these three alive and functional yet they claim enlightenment. Live with them, watch them closely. Although it is hard to find a fully realized person, the honest ones will apologize and admit their wrongs. You can still study with them if they are sincerely committed on the path until you get to where they are then go find someone else who went further than them if they don’t display humility and admit they can be wrong. I was lucky to run into a hermit master who doesn’t care for a following or money. He was in solitary retreat for 10 years but nobody knows. My family knew he did it, because my mother donated the hermitage in Asia for him to do it and supported him through with basic living through it. We have a 40 years relationship. I met him when I was 5 years old. But he didn’t teach anyone else but me. Many times sincere teachers/practitioners on the path are very quiet unassuming people, not famous at all. Because they tell people the truth and not something they want to hear. No one wants to hear they don’t have a self or everything they know is mind made. Most people just want validation of their ego. These Arahants are not very public. Like Bhante Punnaji, he lived in my city for many years, but only now I come across his teachings. Unfortunately he passed away in 2018.
Sincere practitioners keep practicing and don’t claim attainments. My teacher kept telling me to “keep going” for 27 years. That’s getting the shit kicked in your ego every time you come to something amazingly mystical in your practice, thought it’s enlightenment and told to let it go. Few people can tolerate that and leave their teacher before final fruition. I was good at letting my ego take the beating because I know you can’t do solitary retreat for 10 years and not get something out of it. Either you go crazy or become an arahant. My teacher doesn’t seem crazy but a pretty normal funny sociable man. He lives life like any normal monk after 10 years retreat. No claiming anything, didn’t even tell anyone. So I kept studying from him. Hopefully you’ll find someone like my teacher.
Good luck on your path. Metta
@@moonmissy @L V oh! It's a great journey story right here, man). Thanks a lot. You gave some new perspectives on practice in general.
Yeh, I'm familiar with Ajahn Chah, as well as Mahasi style. I got deep dive into Buddhism especially due to Daniel Ingram's crazy book MCBT (he's diehard fan of Ven Mahasi) and I'm really like this non dogmatic, pragmatic, hardcore dharma approach. But my practice also influenced by some advaita boys like N. Maharaj and R. Maharshi. And be sure I do breakdancing with Dogen, Sudzuki S. and Zen stuff like this as much).
My mind dont like dry insight practice (often I do fast noticing, seems like 5 sensation in a second) because I got a crazy uncomfortable feelings after that). So I try to connect shamatha (less) + vipassana (more) + do nothing/aware of awareness (Adyashanti) practice + sometimes intensive direct pointings/Bahiya Sutta contemplation.
It's funny that you've mentioned Shri-Lanka, because I planned to visit Thai or SL :)) and also try to find some teachers who did both shamatha+vipassana (Sila by default). But because of covid its not easy right now, but I'm still looking for it. That's why I doing like a "solo retreat" at home now). I got something like pre-access concentration and have time to practice about 6-7 hours per day during next 1-2 months.
Can I ask you a few more questions?
@@JazzyDef I'm sorry for the late reply, CZcams didn't send me any notice of your message.
In my many years of looking into the Mahasi style/method, also heard opinions from another famous Theravada teacher in Vietnam Ven. Thich Vien Minh and in USA Bhante Vimalaramsi, Mahasi style is one of "concentration" Jhanas like the Hindu Jhanas the Buddha studied before his enlightenment even though it's labelled as vipassana because it requires effortful, directed concentration. But the Buddha didn't teach that type of Jhana after his enlightenment. The Buddha's Jhanas are woven together with Vipassana, you do both at once. It doesn't require any effort but only bare attention and letting go.
Basically Adyashanti's method of "allowing things to just be" is correct, "awareness of awareness" however, is too advanced for beginners. It's what you do to experience the Base of Infinite Consciousness. If you haven't even passed the first 4 Jhanas and Arupa of Infinite Space, you can't do that one. It's almost impossible (unless you lucked out like Eckhart Tolle), you need a teacher to walk you through the steps first.
You can find many teachers of Ajahn Chah's tradition in North America, I'm going to visit one at the Arrow River Hermitage in Canada soon to do a month-long solitary retreat there. arrowriver.ca/. They'll let you stay and practice without charging you anything but only accept donations if you can afford them. Otherwise, you can inquire about being a steward to stay longer term of 3 months for work, study and practice. You don't need to go to Asia, because unless you find an English-speaking monk there, it doesn't do you any good. You need one-on-one instruction and directions when practicing serious meditation. Also to learn mediation properly in any tradition takes many years. Ideally, access to the same teacher to receive personal ongoing guidance. That means at the very least picking up the phone and calling often for guidance. There is no substitute for it.
If you want to contact me to make it easier to ask questions than being on this forum, you can email me at lotushuyenvu@gmail.com.
Awakening from dream of existance. Sadhu Bhante.
SADHU BHANTE !
What a beautiful clear cut explanation of this highly subtle process!!
It clearly shows the bhante's attainment of wisdom!! Thank You So
So Much !!! Love You !!! .
Agree!! Only the person who has achieved such a level can explain the way to Nivana.
sadhu sadhu sadhu Bhante Punnaji for this clear explanation.
3 bows to Buddha Dhamma Sangha
🙏🙏🙏
Bhante M. Punnaji Mahathera is the one of the Buddhist monk who taught original Buddhism.
Sanya is what is being seen. And the feeling of what you see the like or dislike is the vedana.
Hearing is sanya and if you like is vedana.
Then when sanya and vedana is stop one experience nirodha samapathi.
Samapathi mean attainment of that state.
Nirodha mean is stopping the continueing of existing. That mean one stop the bhava or one stop being existing. At that moment of nirodha samapathi one is no more existing in samsara. One enter nibanna
interpretation of bhantee is very clear
Потрясающе. Значит, есть два пути к Ниббане - через Прозрение - это всем известно, а также, по сути, через чистое Сосредоточение - войдя в состояние Ниродха Самапатти.
Amazing Bhante I never heard before so Deep explanation about nirodha sammapatti and 2 ways of attainment like this🙏🙏🙏 (before i think it comes from upacara sammadhi to become sukkhavipassako arahant, and now I know it comes from the 4th Jhanna and the complete stage of 8th Jhanna as the basic)
From upacara samadhi there is opportunity to attain two lower fruits - sotapana and sakadagamy
Thanks
Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu
Very well said by Venerable Bhante
Specially unless one has four jhañña,then only introspect.
Now a day's without four jhañña everyone is practicing Vipassana.
Which is possible only those who has four jhañña,four purification.
Pariyatti patipatti dhamma.
rare to see an Indian(or are you Sri Lankan ?) commenting on this issue ! Most seem to think Buddhism === Vipassana(that too of the Goenka style)
A person who reach that state he is an Ariya.
One who enter the ceesation of sensation and perception and conciousness shut down is the awaken one. He has experience nirodha samapathi.
If one who enter the ceesation of sensation and perception and conciousness is on freeze then that is not the ultimate realization of nibbanna.
BUDDHAM SARANAM GACCHAMI
it only took him 9:15 to answer the question. His definition is on point though.
🙏🙏🙏