Is The Era of The Backdated Porsche 911 Finally Over?
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- čas přidán 29. 06. 2022
- For years people have been making modern air-cooled Porsche 911s look like older cars. First it was SC's and 3.2s being made to look like 2.4 long-hoods, the early 70s Porsche 911s. Then the 964 was used extensively to make hot rods or re-creations like the Singer 911. But was this just a fashion that is no longer relevant?
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My brother and I often talk about this. We have cars which are now sought after if they are good original spec and condition. We have bought our cars when they were low priced and just 'old' and then done things to them. Now, years later some people say shame we didn't keep them original. They may have been scrapped years ago if we hadn't done what we did.
Your car has it's own history that's what matters.
There are old cars that are used and there are old cars that are worth good money. There's not a lot of overlap between the two sets
That "they would have been scrapped" is a bit of an oft repeated lame excuse for modifying a classic, TBH. All cars are better off being kept as original as possible. Even with your best intentions your mods will never be better than what the manufacturer intended. Motor car development takes a lot of cost and time and effort.
Some of the OEM parts are not being manufactured any longer. I cannot source new replacement parts for Bosch K Jet. This will be a problem going forward with lots of cars, fortunately there are after market EFI solutions that are very helpful in keeping these cars on the road.
@@zonoscopePictures There are also aftermarket parts for k jet if you so wish made from better materials than the original parts. At least there is for old mercs.
I’ve been bashing my brains out on exactly this subject. I have a 1975 2.7 911s, which has chrome from the old, and impact bumpers from the new. It’s in beautiful condition and to back date it I worked out that if I sell after it’s done I wouldn’t get my money back. So I’m leaving it as it left the factory- a 911s slim body. Salute from a fellow Brit born Italian. Cheers Toni.
I'm also in the same dilemma having a 75 targa restoration project about to start which way to take it, I'm keeping it narrow body, something about the shape I prefer being original pre turbo arch's !
Love the looks of the earlier cars but would only want an original. Back in the day I loved the looks of the 3 litre and 3.2 cars, spoiler and all, and still do.
great vid mate...love these specimens...awesome and timeless!
These cars are among the most sought after sports cars. Everyone wants them. I have a friend who sold his 2 year old 992 and bought a 993 S. Never looked back. 70s, 80s, 964 and 993 will always be collectible and desirable and for a good reason. No other car offers similar driving experience. I like originals and I like backdates. But yeah... I think the future is with the cars in original condition.
I’m in the camp now keep them in the era that they belong. Ok to upgrade engine and suspension to drive and ride better but if you want a long hood then buy one. I personally love how the impact bumper models look as much as I like the long hoods pre 74’. My favorite impact bumper model is 74-76 Carrera.
Had to congratulate you on this content, Jack. I’ve been a subscriber since you acquired the Influenza and always enjoyed your work - but this really was brilliant ( I love all things 911 - a car in an entire class of its own whichever you own) lovely cars, and interesting topic and a really clever and interesting angle to talk about, and beautifully produced - really, really well done - thank you 👏🏻
I agree, that now that the prices of a 3.2 are where they are, backdating one now makes little sense from a financial point of view. However, now that I’m much older, I have come to appreciate that we must do what we want to do, because we want to do it, not because we want to chase a market, or pander to what we think the next guy will be aspiring to. This Century is very, very different to the last.
Timely video! I’ve just yesterday pulled the trigger on a 3.2 SS Targa. Very good driver’s quality and quite beautiful. You’ve help me decide on the whale tail. I’ll keep it. For the immediate.
Love the backdated car, stunning colour as well ...... Wonder if he wants to swap for my 308 (i need a 308 expert to help fix it first LOL)
Jack is an expert..........lol!
And about your Porsche Scott?
Personally I think that as the earlier cars move out of the reach of most people and Singer continue to produce their outstanding execution of the 911, demand for the backdated look will increase. Let's face it, it's the only way most will be able to enjoy the spirit of the earliest iteration.
To me, the Singer stuff is pure madness ! Ok, all the finicky interior details are nice.
But for a cool million dollars !? That's pure stupid, logical only for the flashy, "Me big, me is a fashion starlet" crowd. C'mon guys !
So every Supercar/Hypercar owner then 😉
@@marcryvon I agree, singer should just shut shop and go mod Japanese sports cars, please leave the Porsches to the real enthusiasts!
Jack, Myself and a Friend foward dated a 1966 2.0S in 1990, that car was original and was essentially a 930 Turbo complete with all running gear completewith Sunroof and Steel Wide Arches. We got pulled over by the Police in London at the Chelsea Cruise. It pinged up on the Database as a 1966 and they demanded reciepts, luckily we amassed an A4 Ring Binder with every Detail and Purchase we had done, the Police after browsing the notes, knew begrudgingly that the car was OK and documented. TBH we took a stock original Mint 1966 Model and thoroughly modernised it, the original removed parts were worthless then. That car now would be worth north of £100K in its original condition, how time & things have changed! Keep up the Channel & Good Wotk...Nick
Love all your videos 👍👏
With these prices none of it is worth it. For me if I had the money I would backdate it. Nice video. Very nice cars. Keep up the good work.
Great video Jack :)
Banger of a video. Keep on it.
I love how the grey backdate even has a custom front valence just for the license plate!
Jk. I would love to own either. Great video and please keep the amazing content coming.
think that’s originally where the RS oil cooler grille was located and they’ve just modified it for the license plate
Defiantly a nice chat, no need backdate, bring the beauty of impact bumpers🥰
An engaging, entertaining video as always Jack.
I think your valuations are a bit extreme though? I remember the cheapest SCs and the odd 3.2 being £8-10k 20 years ago, and Tower Porsche knocking out painted pre-impact cars for under £20k (available cheaper privately). Then the older cars took off and backdating (and unforwarddating!) started.
The impact bumper cars have come into their own for a while now and the best have caught up the earlier cars.
Have we reached peak backdate? Maybe - and maybe the 996 will now have its day!
Its like with mini coopers each to their own both are cool :)
Great topic 👍 I'm already down the rabbit hole of sourcing backdated parts having a narrow body targa and it came with early used wings in its stripped state!
Body restoration will start soon but I'm lucky to have pre & impact bits ( just not all) to decide what's right as I'm doing it for me not resell value!!
Most of my mate's know me for doing diesel conversions, I think that would upset the whole 911 community doing a TDI swap as everyone it going electric or OEM 😁
I think it’s time to preserve the original cars We don’t need more fake long hoods. The 3.2 is a fine car, and with the transition to electric there will be no more 911s like it.
Excellent video. There are too few videos on G-Series 911s - personally unless they are done to the level of Singer or hotrod (RSR) type racecar, I think there is enough enjoyment to be had in a standard car, as is.
I really like the original far better than the "long nose", nearly bought one that had been all kitted out, but figured it'd cost a bomb to put it back to how I wanted it. Good content Jack, thanks.
I’m surprised that there is no focus on the weight saving you gain from getting rid of the heavy front and rear bumpers…and if you go fibreglass…the saving in weight from the front wings and bonnet too. I went through this conversion for my SC and it transformed the driving characteristics of the car. Please remember, the switch to impact bumpers for Porsche was forced upon them by new US regulations…and not driven by engineers pushing for performance gains
I owned an 1985 Super Sport 3.2 Targa.Turbo body and great fun.It was so nice to drive and it looked so cool.I wish I had kept it.
I love these backdates. Singer, Kaege, Tedson, etc. You need to see if you can get ahold of one for a through review 😊
Definitely don't think I would start with a neat original car to do a back date today. The front end can actually be done (as mine is) without cutting and changing over the latch panel. Mine has a short hood inner skin and long hood outer skin that makes up the bonnet with an extended latch. The rear does require cutting out the reflector mount panel though. Basically if you start with a bastard Hot Rod, then go for it. Neat original, hmmm, I think leave it :D . Great vid again mate.
Definitely depends what car your starting with in today's market and what the budget is! It's getting harder for us mortals to enter the market
Yours looks right Jeff 👍 you bought at the right time before prices rocketed. I'll be watching your back catalogue again when I start mine hopefully soon, been saying that for 5 years!!
If I were going to have a 911 I would do the backdate without question. The longnose is IMO the prettiest of the 911s, particularly with a ducktail. Since a good longnose would be out of reach, this is a great way to get the look, but with better reliability. Doing a conversion like this... i wouldn't care about value. It's about owner experience and I'd rather look in my driveway and see a longnose sitting there, than an SC (although technically would be the same thing, just better looking than an SC).
Must admit, I wouldn’t back-date - I’d prefer my 911 to be as honest as possible.
I’ve always loved the 80’s whale tail cars and have never understood why you would ruin one by making it look like an earlier cars
I love the 1980s version because thats the design I fell in love with first, but in time I've grown to love the earlier designs too! So imo, I'd take either one.
Thought provoking video! Loved it! Personally I’d have the original 3.2, ditch the whale tail spoiler, respray it. Nothing more. The art of visually modifying is to get maximum impact from changing as little as possible. All personal opinion of course.
This is another level car journalism
If your donor car is a mess (many of them are... you just can't see the problems), then a backdate makes sense, because (if you can afford it and the car is a keeper) the necessary remedial work will have to be dome sometime anyway. If you like having to regularly tinker with the car fixing age/use problems then fine... enjoy that and run it as it is. Getting the whole car sorted means that annual maintenance costs will be lower in the future and the car more reliable. Upgrading key components in the course of the strip-down and rebuild makes the backdate much better and safer to drive enthusiastically. Finally, if you've ever had a hankering to build your own unique car as you want it... then dig deep and spec. your own wheels.
In the UK the opening panel at the front of the car is called the bonnet.
It’s so funny…
930, plastic parts delete (always been questionable - the badboys market) to make it more 964, while adding vintage parts (grills & RS front) and new lights to call it a “backdate”…
If I had an impact bumper car, ideally in a period colour, I’d rather drop £10-15k on a full suspension refresh and some engine upgrades than do any visual stuff.
If I wanted to build a car that looked like a long hood, I’d start with a 964.
@@updawg8382 isn’t the whole point of a restomod / backdate to have something that drives like a modern car but looks like an old car.
Hey Jack. Just drive your Porsche as intended. Fast & free
I went more the hot rod route with my 77’ 911 S. I think it’s getting more rare to see a narrow body or keeping the factory look.
Oh wait. Singer does this everyday for years and they cost a fortune.
We recently did a back date on a targa version. It made absolutely no sense to us why he wanted it done and with just the body changed it just made the car look odd. It was neither new nor old. Think In complete honesty he de-valued the car.
The only situation I see the back date being worth doing is as you said making it your own car. May be getting hold of a crash damaged/rusty/un loved newer version then using the back date as a part of a hot rod, resto mod conversion.
I had a mate who bought a 1972 (K) 2.4, kitted out to look like a Carerra RS - looked marvellous in white with green graphics & the ducktail. He paid £10k for it in '88 then left it to rot for years under a tarpaulin. I wonder what that would be worth now if he had stored it lovingly?
That conversion's over-slammed. A moderate lowering can work, but putting it down in the weeds just causes problems.
There's also the question of the whale-tail's effect on the handling. Isn't removing it likely to make the back end wander at speed?
Porsche recommends, and rightfully so, that if you have a spoiler on the rear that you install a spoiler on the front as well to keep the front end from wandering at speed. Removing the rear spoiler has no ill effect on the front of the 911.
Years ago I drove a stunning, pro lowered silver 70' 911T. Was always nervous on the roads of S. California as it would seem to immediately attract all the wrong attention as soon as it left the garage. People aggressively tailgating, bozo's wanting to race, it was keyed, vandalized lights. Ouff' it just instilled love or loathing in the pleebs.
As far as backdating, if it's not a nice original, you can't beat the super sexy vintage look and feel. Period
Fiddled-with 911? Nah mate. Giant alloys, engine transplants with huge BHP and 'slammed' ride? Keep it my friend. Give me a completely standard, late 70s gold Carrera with chocolate interior thanks. That cocked-about with 911 (OWP 9L) is not my cup of tea at all; trying to be something it isn't.
Converted SCs are now selling for significantly less than similar millage / condition stockers .
Good video Jack, I thought about this before I sorted my carrera, but decided to leave it as Porsche designed it, even the whale tail spoiler.
I prefer the impact bumpers and whale tail. It's an iconic 70s / 80s look. There's something not quite right with this restomod, maybe the wheel arches need to be reduced?
The 964s drive completely differently so I don't see the point of backdating when you can buy an original 60s car for the same money, which are far more fun to drive.
Something pig ugly like a 996 would benefit from a backdate however.
Great video and great idea to do it.
And yes 100% OVER!!
I wish 🙏 i could afford a 911 backdated or not 😂😂 great video jack 👍
Keep in mind a lot of SC's and 3.2's got 'updated' to the 964 look back in the day, often poorly. One of these would be a good candidate for a backdate IMO.
Great video and very timely because the impact bumper cars are making a huge comeback so hopefully this trend is over. Also I have a real long hood hot rod and I feel like this trend hurt the values of the real long hoods so I am glad to see it end. Plus I love the look of the impact bumper cars especially the 74 so to me the back date does not make it a better looking car.
Keep it original for me. I think it would ultimately devalue the car in the long-term.
I like the long-hood look and agree that the current market puts conversions into question.
I get it now,this is a rich man's channel
Personally, I still love the look of the 80's 911's with the hidden headlamps/slantnose. If I was going to modify one of these, that is what I would do. But to your point, for these air cooled cars, originality is the key to pricing/value.
Surely it's a bit like buying a crusty old 996 gen 2 if you were to modify it now. But 20 years down the line they'll probably be highly sorted after.
Interesting Jack, in today’s climate I think keep it original. I bought a 2.4S which looks like a 993 a few years ago, I’m saving to have a full restoration back to original body and colour.
I do admit I'm still a sucker for the early 70s look despite the number of them you see online thesedays. I'd only consider backdating a 911 if the car was shabby and needed bodywork anyway. I'd probably hit up Club Autosport for carbon fibre panels and go the lightweight direction.
Also at speeds over 100mph the front and tail spoilers are purposeful. They were not just beautiful design features. They actually serve to keep both the front and back planted. I wouldn’t want to second guess Porsche.
You raise some great points Jack and I agree that back dating probably doesn't make sense, don't they look cool tho! 😎
I'd not even heard of backdating before.
It's not always about the money. You should know that. You own a 308!
In the 80s early 911/912's were changing hands for around 4-5k gbp. One of my favourite 911's are the very early mid 70's cars, rubber bumpers, no front spoiler and chrome window trim and cookie cutter alloys. In Kermit the frog green please.
It makes absolutely no sense to me, I can't see the attraction.
The value of all aircooled 911's makes the 996 look like a spectacular bargain
It's annoying that the only 911's I can afford are the modified ones that I would have to redo back to original to make them desirable.
Personally i think that backdate looks absolutely beautiful and i would prefer a backdate to a pretty ugly standard 3.2. The backdate looks like a £150,000 car to me and you could really go to town on the interior and over time make something really really unique and special.
When I think that I had a 1973 911 Targa 2.4, between 1984 and 1986 and sold it for 10'000 Swiss Francs, in mint condition; why in the world I haven't kept that one in beyond me....
Hopefully too many 964, arguably the best air cooled 911, have been turned into '73 S pastices.
The 911 3.2 is of course the last of their breed.My take on this is keep it original its worth it.
Someone with a nice straight car should keep it that way. If however, the car is a complete wreck when purchased, I see no harm in developing it with care.
The development work is always work checking with other owners and in particular, with specialists (even if a majority in GB never listen to experts ;-) ). Valuable insight is often free!
"My valuable insight": I have been in 3.2s, a 996 and a 993 and none of them could hold a candle to an Elise 111R (other than for the grocery space). If you watch historic racing, 911s and 356s are not really the weapon of choice...
I’ve owned a 68 2.4 and an 88 3.2 SC. The 3.2 was an amazing car compared with the 2.4 which was a rust bucket that handled appallingly! I just don’t get why the early cars command such a price premium. It’d be fun to do a conversion for the cosmetic deception only, it’d be nuts to change the mechanicals!
Thank goodness someone is telling it like it is. 2.7 and older are crap.
The closest I'll ever get to owning a 911 was my new VW GTI in '84, white with blue interior, and I was thrilled with it, a VW that played like a Porsche. So on this topic I can't really say as I am not a player in this game, tho' yes, hot rods are made special by their owners and those owners should do whatever they want with their cars--make it classic, make it modern, or, as CZcams car guy Casey Putsch is doing, hand-fabricate a body over a Porsche chassis and engine as an homage to one of the great Italian supercars.
I think I'm in the minority but I grew up in the late 70's and 80's and the impact bumper cars were the ones on the bedroom posters. I'd like to see the impact bumper blade front in rear in carbon fiber to recoup some weight to get them closer to the long nose cars. I do have a GP white 3.2 like you drove in the video, but a non sport model. Cool car for sure.
Government required impact bumpers will never Trump an artists purest design. There won’t ever be an end to that preference.
Better to restore an early car and equip it with more modern dampers, a G50 and a later EFI motor.
Lose numbers matching unit.
Get some centre caps on those Fuchs
I still remember as a kid browsing through the classified looking at 930s going for 10-15k and thinking I'll buy one when I grow up. I'm in my mid 20s now and a 930 is further away from me now than it was when I was 9 years old. It's pretty depressing I won't lie.
Get used to it, I´m afraid! I´ve wanted a 911 since 1964 and they´ve always been out of reach. The quoted example of 6000 GBP 911s never really happened unless you went really brave on a total dog (these things rust....) and in any case 6000 GBP would have bought a conservatory at the time....
@@martinrichardhorrocks9869 I'm talking 10-15k GBP. And I literally seen it with my own eyes. My older brother used to work for a neighbour who used to buy 944s and 911 from the UK and import them to Ireland to sell here. The one I remember the most was a really nice 959 replica that sold for £11500, he was going to buy it but it being at the bottom of Cornwall put him off.
'Investors' (ie parasites) have destroyed the classic car market for normal people. Yes, I'm bitter about that.
It's hard to predict future values of these backdated cars precisely because younger enthusiasts will always be coming into the market that serves this hobby. The next generation will soon be coming into their peak buying power as a cohort group and their preferences, together with a nascent nostalgia factor, might just keep perceived values for these cars higher than we might imagine today. I've seen this phenomenon play itself out in the music business for decades.
I have the opposite problem. I have an early swb car but like the later flared cars. Haha. Hard to leave the car stock but that’s the decision I’ve made. 😕
Just sold my 3.2 after 21 years ownership and I never understood the backdate obsession. Mine stayed pretty standard.
This sort of thing has only made sense if the car has been in a bad accident. One would need to be crazy to cut up a good clean original car.
I have a 964 and prefer to keep the money to pay for fuel and running rather than changing the looks. As a clean original example it was valued at 80k eur. However id love to have budget for a hotrod 70s original. Paul Stephens have a nice rsr tribute for sale for example. 😎
Viviamo l'era delle 911 in produzione più pesanti di sempre
Così noi amiamo le 911 più leggere possibili... se backtated la rende più leggera, ben venga il look retrò👍
Original never goes out.
Did you see Singer has stopped doing their "classic" rebuilds (no more 964s) and will be taking only their turbo orders. How much will those prices spike now
Its all a matter of taste. I love the singers because of the craftmenship, and its a brand of its own now. But for the lot, I dont think its something anyone should do. On the other hand, if the owner really wants to do it... Why not.
The backdates will continue, and for good aesthetic reasons. Ralph Nader's safety crusade, noble and life-saving as it was, resulted in dubious aesthetic alterations to the impact bumpers of the 308, Pantera, Bora, Esprit, Countach and the clunky bellow bumpers and short bonnet that ruined the looks of the 911. I suspect there was also a protectionist motive in deliberately ruining the looks of European cars. I particularly hate the black plastic sealing blade that sits atop the front bumper, that the 911 short bonnet rests on. (Let's pretend the Typ 754 prototype never existed): The 901 design language followed the rounded, Lange body looks of earlier Porsches like the 356. It was always meant to look like a pebble. This is why I also like the 996.1. A 3.2 with its better handling, galvanised body and G50 gearbox, but with pre-1974 looks sounds like the best of both worlds to me, as long as the backdate is reversible. PS I agree that the backdated car in this video is too aggressively lowered and I am not a fan of that colour. A more 60s/70s hue, like cream, lime, orange, duck egg blue or good ol' Guards red would have worked well.
Ah, at last someone who notices that extreme lowering of a car does not improve it. Maybe good for track days, but for driving on the road? No
Both look amazing. But to my eyes the backdate looks far cooler. I've read lots of comments on here about keeping an original original. But the point is there just arent any early cars out there to keep original any more.
Older car has simpler, purer lines. I think the bumpers & wing spoil the later car, but it it's favour, it has more presence.
I can see the benefit of having an older car with more modern driving characteristics/extra power, but 'worth it' down to market forces &/or personal preference.
Interesting. Hopefully not too many more cars get chopped but as the process usually involves a radical rebuild of the base car anyway, backdating is heart ruling head, cannot be done for little money. I personally like restomods, as long as the cars are upgraded and not just a Carrera RS clone (another former fashion). And yes, we´ve recently rescued a horrible 1970 Targa Sportmatic (!) which someone had turned into a flatnose 935 replica with fibreglass in the 80s.... (when Gary Glitter rocked every New Years Eve)....car is now stock and Viper Green.
In reality, there are a lot of old 911s in the world, including bad ones needing everything, so nice that people express themselves via the medium. How many Guards Red/Black/white/silver impact bumper 911s do we need? One of the problems with 911 buyers since the 70s is that they chose conservative groupthink colours with an eye on resale, whereas a restomod will always try to hit the eye and most are tastefully done. I don´t see backdating stopping yet, as I don´t think it´s actually money-driven.
Good points.
For me, the only early 911 which you'd retromod or back date would be a car which has already been fiddled with. I love the 80's style rear on the 911 but the looks of 70's at the front but they should never meet. But overall the 70's looks the better. So I would buy the modded look a like over the standard but I wouldn't buy the standard and modify. Financially you'd be spending serious money just to devalue your pride and joy, unless it's a keeper then it doesn't matter one bit!!
100%, impact bumper rules again.
If I were doing a backdate it would be a 964 Carrera 4. Why? Porsche never built an AWD car in the earlier body style. Also, to reduce weight to under 3,000lb.
In my very humble opinion, I'd prefer to have an original car. then I grew up in the late Seventies and early eighties so the 3.2 cars were my dream cars
My cousin had a mint one around 20 years ago,sold it for peanuts as they were way cheaper then,gutted
Lots of people will continue to desire 'back-dated' cars because they are so pretty, and I see no harm in it. If I could afford a 911 -- a big caveat -- I would find a well done back-dated car more desirable than a standard 3.2. Even though I like the look of the 3.2 in isolation, next to the back-dated car it simply doesn't measure up.
I think in general people like the retro look to some degree. but to the point of taking a car and completely changing it is pointless unless we are talking singer or Gunther works quality.