Understanding The 'Logic' Of TERFs
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- čas přidán 28. 08. 2024
- Why do TERFs think the way they do? The history of TERFs goes way back before JK Rowling. In the 1980s TERF Janice Raymond ran a successful campaign to push Sandy Stone out of Olivia Records.
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Emma: I want to move to other examples just before we run out of time. because some of these are really great including Janice Raymond and sandy stone. on and this is applicable to the current day in discussions of TERFs and JK Rowling is the most obvious example but this is very applicable for modern feminist discourse here. Tell us a little bit about those two feminists and what honestly it says about modern-day feminist discourse around trans women.
Schuller: yeah it was really important to me to show how that the logic of anti-trans feminists. you know who argues that transgender are not women is actually part of white feminism. even though it's less obvious. because we most often think of white feminism in terms of its racism. but there is subliminal racism in the position of TERFs. and so I look at especially the role of a trans musician and sound engineer and activist sandy stone who was part of a really important collective a lesbian recording artist collective that sold hundreds of thousands of records in the 1970s and 80s called Olivia records. and then Janice Raymond who is an academic and author of probably the most important TERF book called the transsexual empire. who supported a campaign to Sandy Stone the trans woman out of Olivia's records in the 70s. It was a successful campaign. and we you know we often talk about and recognize that anti-trans feminists are what we call biological essentialists. right they say sex is real. you're born sex. It's very tidy and clear and it can never change. right biology is destiny is there is that kind of logic. which flies in the face of research that shows that anything up to two percent of births is intersex to some degree. right but it's an insistence that biology is extremely tidy and sex is always straightforward and set in stone. That is that and that it was absolutely true that TERFs are biological essentialists. But Turks have also experienced essentialists. and What I mean by that is that they say a trans woman can't be a woman also because she didn't have the experience of being a woman growing up. she didn't have the universal experience of menstruation or the universal experience of sexual harassment or any of the other elements of being in a female body. The problem is there is no such thing as that universal female experience right? and this is one of the points that Audrey Lord has made over and over again in her lifetime, right? like black women have five times the rate of many breast cancer of sexual assault and abuse right? one of the things that Harriet jacobs was was illuminates versus Harriet Beecher Stowe is that you know in the 1860s what is the position of being a woman. if you're Harriet jacobs you might be hiding in an attic for seven years. if you're an enslaved black woman being abused by your own slaver if you're a white woman you might have a completely different set of experiences.
Supporting women isn't anti-trans, or if it's anti-trans to support women, then you have a misogynist problem.
A lot of it is to do with the Gender Recognition Act in Britain, where a man can just decide he's a woman, with no medical report, and then even he's an attacker, he can go in a woman's prison or changing rooms.
@@SuzLa1 That's not the case under the Act in its present form.
Similarly, supporting trans people is not anti woman.
@@SymphonyEternally Supporting transgender ideology is anti-woman.
They're all misogynistic. They dress like women because they're afraid of them and it becomes a fetish.
No idea why we're affirming this mental illness.
Can you please start putting the name of your guests in the video description?
Black women and black feminist theory are being misused here.
How do - I really don't know.
The fact that intersex people exist does not invalidate the basic fact that sex in humans is binary, male-female. Anomalous exceptions do not affect the clear overall pattern. Also, it has nothing to do with race, absolutely nothing. You're bringing up all sorts of irrelevant things, the sexing of mammals is usually pretty straightforward; do they produce sperm or eggs? It's not biologically essentialist to state that male animals produce sperm, and female animals produce eggs.. It's called a statement of fact.
You're right it is a fact; a biological SEXUAL chromosomal fact.
Back when people thought the Sun orbitted the Earth - and people stoned gays: SEX and GENDER meant the same thing. Until now.
SEX: biological, chromosomal (trans do no contest this - they are aware of this every day they wake up)
GENDER: societal (this is where the real battleground is . this is the arena TERFs try to muddy)
Only boomers and bad-faith try to conflate the two.
Binary by definition means one or the other. The existence of exceptions *by definition* very much does invalidate what you claim as "basic fact".
Now I'm sure what you mean to say is that MOST people do tend to fall into the "male" or "female" categories of sex pretty cleanly, and that's true. But it's very much not all. There are about as many intersex people as there are redheads - are we going to start claiming you can ONLY be blonde or brunette, and "redheads are just an anomaly that don't count as a hair color people can have"?
Oh and if biological sex was strictly based on gametes, guess what? I wouldn't be female OR male, because I don't produce eggs or sperm. Yet, fancy that, I was assigned female at birth! Because sexual biology consists of a BUNCH of different properties, some of which can be changed and others which can't. And the very fact that some CAN be changed, and that trans and intersex people can very much exist with a mix of properties from each of the two typical categories, completely flies in the face of biological essentialism.
@@rubbercable In the vast majority of people, these two things coincide.
@@stephaniel2850 It's not biological essentialism to say that there are two sexes. There are two sexes because we reproduce sexually. Infertile people with indeterminate genitalia are a medical anomaly, not a natural variation like redheads. However, a female animal that, through some medical condition, does not produce eggs, is still a female animal because she has or had the potential to do so.
@@blackmichael75 _"biological essentialism to say that there are two sexes"_
You're right - but the fact you skirt away from GENDER means you know where you will lose.
Intersex taken into trans question is lame.
Why?
Both "conditions" are biologically based and deviate from cis endo experience that is taken for granted.
@@FR0STBL0D got nothing to do with each other.
@@majakollektiivitimanttimet3862 How do you get to this assumption?
@@FR0STBL0D hermafrodism which is bodily flaw, person having both genitals. Having normal body of either sex is not a hermafrodite. Not assumption, merely a fact.
Are medical conditions are being taken advantage of by people who want to push another political agenda.
Loads of strawmen arguments and deliberate misrepresentation here. You need to twist yourself into a pretzel to square with this nonsense. Biology essentialism????....you mean biological facts that have stood the test of time.
One, it has not stood the test of time. Sex has been proven to not be binary, that's what intersex is about. Two, the issue is about sex being the only determiner of gender which is a mistake. To clarify this issue is why it is TansGENDERED and no longer commonly called TransSEXUAL.
@@gaowuji2091 Sex is binary. Stop lying. There is ONLY male and female. That's it. Intersex is NOT A NEW SEX. They are male and female. Nobody gives af about gender.
@@gaowuji2091 So why should gender determine sex-based rights?
@@ambientjohnny so now you’re getting into the idea that either determines special rights. Equality means equal rights. You should ask what ‘sex based rights’ are and why they matter.
@@gaowuji2091 Do you realise how long and hard females fought for their sex-based rights?
So you tell me why walking back these rights is an insignificant issue?
How does self-ID protect against abuse better than what is currently in place?
If trans women have problems in male spaces, why is it on females to solve that and not the males to change?
I see nothing wrong with KK Rowling . Trans women are obviously not women , and trans men are not really men .
It's one thing to be nice to all people but let's not take it to ridiculous extremes .
This "woman's" arguments are ridiculous.
The majority of people know this .
"J.K. Rowling’s New Book-About A Cross-Dressing Serial Killer-Draws Outrage" - forbes
_she doesn't bother with the 'just asking questions' mask anymore, you can drop the pretense_
@@rubbercable
Oh stop it !
Lol
@@rubbercable You haven't read that book have you.
@@dambar7486 I've read the reviews.
@@rubbercable
Since you have not read the book, here’s exactly what the reviewer is referring to..
On page 75, the investigating officer tells Strike (the book’s protagonist who’s a detective) what he knows about the suspected serial killer named Creed:
“He had his failures you know. Penny Hiskett, she got away from him and gave the police a description in ’71, but that didn’t help them much. She said he was dark and stocky, because he was wearing a wig at the time and all padded out in a woman’s coat. They caught him in the end because of Melody Bower. Nightclub singer, looked like Diana Ross. Creed got chatting to her at the bus stop, offered her a lift, then tried to drag her into the van when she said no. She escaped, gave the police a proper description and told them he’d said his house was of Paradise Park.”
No honest person writing in good-faith would describe this passing mention of the suspect using a wig and a woman’s padded coat as a disguise to evade capture as “transphobic”.
Poor argument. And why does the trans community always invoke the Black struggle to bolster their argument? Why can’t they stand on their own instead of piggy backing on other movements?
did you know black trans people exist
@@jskull2024 and so do white, Asian, Hispanic, etc. They can all get together a form their own trans-activist group without trying to hijack other movements.
Don’t you just love it when people refer to ‘science’ when they don’t quote the actual studies.
You will find like-minded individuals among those who have banned and burned her books for the past ten years. You know that fascists aren't threatened by books that share their reactionary values, which is why you don't report on this. You never reports on fascists burning books written by women, or on how fascists are driving women out of their own sports, out of their lesbian bars and safe spaces, on how they are a form of men's rights activism disguised as gay rights. You don't report about the women maimed by sex change operations. And as always you still don't care about how prostitution is a violation of women's rights and dignity. You will find like-minded individuals among those who burn her books on an habitual basis for the past ten years.
That's a firehose of baseless accusations to advertise you're malding.
@caroligna
SEX: biological, chromosomal
GENDER: societal
@@rubbercable I agree. That is a fundamental pillar of radical feminism. Welcome to our movement, we need more feminists like you in our ranks.
@@m.p.6039 Happy to join your ranks: *"Trans women are women."*
What are you going on about? Women aren't driven out of sports, lesbians aren't driven out of bars. Surgery is not maiming. And prostitution is not a violation of anyone's rights when it is a free choice of the sex worker.
One of the problems, according to the speaker, is that "TERFS" "often position men as oppressors." Well, feminism is the political movement battling against male supremacy and male violence, so yes, men are the oppressors that feminists are fighting. (Of course this doesn't mean all men.) You can easily tell that this woman is not a feminist when she dismisses violence against (cisgender?) women toward the end of the video, arguing that we should not play the Oppression Olympics. Is she completely unaware of the data that show that domestic violence, rape, and femicide are at pandemic levels? Finally, not a single "TERF" or radical feminist is a biological essentialist who believes that biology is destiny.
Imagine applying some of this "logic" to the question of race... She would say, "Well, the problem with anti-racist activism is that it often positions white people as oppressors..." SMDH.
Transwomen get hate from TERFs and cisgender males. So I'd say TERFs are working with the patriarchy on this.
Or are you gonna go all fascist and roll out 'the common enemy' on this?
@Cornelia _"TERFs literally believe sex and gender are basically the same and completely set in stone"_
@Cornelia TERfs absolutely do NOT believe that sex and gender are the same. They believe that sex is a biological category that is useful in explaining human reproduction and that gender is the set of social roles imposed on sexed individuals (e.g., men are tough and rational; women are submissive and emotional, etc.). TERFs are anti-essentialist because they critique and challenge gender. They argue that because gender is a social construct and therefore not "real" like biological sex is (for about 99% of the population), women can reject traditional gender roles; in other words, biology is not destiny.
The main difference between TERFs and trans activists is about whether sex or gender should be used to distinguish between men and women. TERFs choose sex in this debate. For TERFs, sex is an important category because males are generally stronger than females and males are almost exclusively the perpetrators of violence against women. For these reasons, TERFs want to "exclude" transwomen from certain spaces and categories in order to protect females. However, TERFs are not asking to specifically exclude transwomen only; instead, they're asking to exclude all males. Personally, I don't really care too much about bathrooms, but I do not think transwomen should be housed in women's prisons, nor do I think they should be able to compete in women's sports.
Majority Report really diversifying the types of bigots that come crawling into their comments. In all seriousness, glad you could cover this topic!
They didn't cover this topic at all. They simply brought a trans woman in to talk. She said that radical feminist believe in one way to be a woman. That's not true at all. Radical feminist understand that there are many ways to be a woman and not all of them are feminine. It is more likely that trans women themselves have one single way to be a Woman. They Embrace an extreme femininity usually over-the-top with hair and makeup. Not all women wear hair and makeup like that. Many radical feminists are not trans exclusive at all. Most of us accept trans men as biological women that are included in our feminism. There are very real issues that radical feminists are concerned about that were not covered.
@@luckycatnip3667 Yes, you are trans exclusive. Because Trans men are men. Also, glad you could showcase the fact that you’ve never met a trans person outside of stereotypical portrayals, and continue to essentialize women by saying “Women don’t look like that”. Bravo, you’re a misogynist
@@Cussy69_420 in order to be a trans women you need to be born a man. I don't care about people who call themselves they them or intersex people I'm talking about trans women they all have one thing in common they had to have been born a man in order to be a trans woman. Otherwise tell me what they are transitioning from?
@@luckycatnip3667 You say "trans women themselves have one single way to be a Woman. They Embrace an extreme femininity" How can you genuinely not see that what you're saying is literally just a stereotype that you have been force-fed by bad faith actors? You are probably the same type of person who thinks black people all like fried chicken and watermelon. You have been fed anti-trans propaganda and you have fallen for it.
You also say "in order to be a trans women you need to be born a man." This is a very shallow understanding of the situation. A more accurate statement would be "In order to be a trans woman, you need to be born with a penis". The fault lies with society for assuming that everyone born with a penis has to be a man, and denying the reality that this is not the case.
Got a dailywire ad on this video. The one where Peterson cries in the cafe. Classic.
Pinoccio Boo hoo 😭
Peterson cries😭every time he can.
ad block all the way!
Majority Report grifting makes money from Dailywire ads . . . .
I am so sorry.
King Critical has made a response video this terribly misogynistic and blatantly INACCURATE video.
It’s truly stunning that King Critical didn’t just disappear off the internet after the epic rectal pummelling he received from Vaush.
Yeah you didn’t watch the video, cause there was zero hatred towards women or blatant inaccuracy cited in the video. You just don’t like the information given to you even though it’s the truth, so you 1) discount it, and 2) create a straw man argument to try and move the goalpost (weak attempt)
I can’t believe this is even being discussed this much nowadays. Be a TRANS woman, why do you need to say you’ve always “been” a woman. You weren’t. Period. It’s a fact, it’s not an insult against trans women. And it isn’t comparable to being black. This is altogether, codswallop.
Exactly.Minorities can't hide their skin color but you can hide your sexual preferences.
found the terf
@@wyattmiller9539 proudly!!!!
Because they have always been a woman. Stop telling trans women who the fuck they are.
@@bluehawkfox3683Disgusting
When out of arguments yell “RACIST” 😂 😂😂
uh no. biological essentialism has demonstrable roots in the eugenics movement and debunked race science. Many cultures had third genders and less strict categorizations of genders but after colonialism and damn near genocide on some people, suddenly it's not normal and the European outlook on gender and sex is seen as normal and true. (i wouldn't even say European exactly bc there is evidence that suggests people who we would today call transgender people existed in Europe too. it's more like a Christian outlook) this is why biological essentialism is racist. a lot of talking heads convinced you all that racism is over bc they want a divided working class. but the truth is racism has deep roots and although it's not legal anymore, its ghost still haunts us. if there are legal tax loopholes for the rich, why couldn't there be legal loopholes for racists?
@@ts4743 To say that colonized countries follow strict gender norms because they were colonized is racist. Essentially you are saying they can't think for themselves. Everything in the universe follow the laws of physics (as far as we know), which when abstracted gives use the models in biology. All living organisms obey these rules. To think that humans somehow are exceptional or not subject to these laws, is hubris and demonstrates how out of touch your arguments are. We are discussing truth here and the pursuit to ascertain it. Now I work in a lab with scientist from several different fields, we see these pseudo scientific arguments all the time, you follow the same structure collect data, analyze blabla. But this is not science, no matter how many words you come up with to sound complex and learned, its nothing but a word salad. Plain and simple. You are not fooling anyone, you might intimidate a few people into keeping quiet but we all know what is happening here. Now go out there and embrace your victim-hood.
@@projectyogisha4670 brilliant: they come up with these nonsensical, incoherent explanations, with a goal of fear mongering and scarring everyone into submission by yelling buzzwords or you are cancelled. Ultimately, they are the worst bigots, causing significant damage to those they allegedly protect. It's a mindless and relentless virtue signaling to prove that they are "better" people than everyone and score cheap points...
@@ts4743 When you need medical care do you go and see a doctor practicing western medicine or you go and see someone practicing ‘precolonial’ medicine? When you have an infected cut, do you put on it an antibiotic cream or do you rub mud into it, the gypsy way? How racist of you! Do you drive around in a western made car or do you have someone pull you around in a rickshaw? Racist, racist, racist…
Do you have any idea why did those cultures invent those other genders outside of male and female? Samoan Fafafine were obviously gay men, defined as separate gender so that they could be excluded from certain places and situations where they were thought to be a bad influence, putting it mildly. Two spirit people in Native American culture were most often mentally I’ll people declared to be special, to protect them from being fed to the bears when they were useless to the tribe. Not at all the romantic reasons for invention of those extra genders… Also, primitive cultures are generally viciously cruel and have no qualms sacrificing and leaving weak behind, but you believe we should take their ways and habits…
How do you pick and choose when you take benefits of Western culture and when you switch to the ‘precolonial’ version of things?
As I am writing this it occurred to me: you know what is the most racist, bigoted thing? Cluelessness: and you my friend are a serious racist… 🤣🤣🤣
@@projectyogisha4670 LITERALLY LOL’d nothing I said was meant to sound scientific in the way you’re referring to here. I was referring to historical fact and sociological phenomenon. The only thing I said in regards to bio is that biological essentialism has roots in eugenics. That’s not the same thing as biology. But since you introduced the laws of biology, I’m not sure what you’re trying to say but it sounds like you’re saying all living things are male OR female and that’s simply not true
Trans women aren’t women. Can men get pregnant?
Can women with hysterectomies get pregnant?
What happens if they're no longer of child bearing age?
What happens if they decide never to have kids - for personal or medical reasons?
Absolutely, transmen can get pregnant.. if they want to.
@@rubbercable
Sterile women are still women because they have the reproductive organs, trans women don’t have ovaries or a uterus. Your argument is as flimsy as a house of cards.
@@jeremyweaver7689 As I said, hysterectomies?
@@rubbercable
No they’re still women because they have the anatomy of a woman. But do trans-women have a cervix or a uterus?
@@jeremyweaver7689 What . happens . if . they . have . hysterectomies.
'Terfs' (that words is considered a slur) believe being a woman is predicated on their unique physiology, distinct from men, predicated on the female reproductive system based around the production of large immobile gametes. They believe female persecution is based on those physical differences. That is the basis of their beliefs. It is an internally consistent logic wholly distinct from being unable to define what a woman is, or defining it in such a way that anyone who identifies as a woman is a woman (thereby eliminating the category as a useful demarcation).
Sounds perfectly logical to me. But the fetishists are unable to debate logic, so they cry "TERF!" instead.
@@GretaZ-dd3lu it's not that they are unable to debate logic, it's that autogynephilia is predicated on the complete repudiation of any difference between them and women. If they are women but with a caveat it destroys the high for them. It's part of why they're so utterly driven in their argument that they're lesbians, even when they engage in sexual relationships with men (another element of autogynephilia)
@@CiceroSolo What high are you talking about?How absurd and patently false. You've never met a straight Transgender woman. They aren't interested in women at all. Only men. They don't get aroused around women. And there are a-sexual transgender women who's lack of sexual desire and interest also refudiates your claims. They aren't motivated by their sexual orientation or any kind of fetish because they have none. They aren't interested in sex at all. They just want to live their authentic selves. crossdressing and gender identification are completely different things as well. Crossdressing is a fetish. They are sexually aroused dressing as women. But as soon as they culminate the sexual act they go back to their role as men. They aren't interested in transitioning. Transgender women aren't aroused by pretending to be women. They don't go back to being men and dressing like men after the sexual act is done. They live as women 24/7 whether they're having sex or not. They are trying to live their authentic lives without people like you making it harder than it already is for them. Intersex and those with extra chromosomes put the lie to your archaic and rigid ideas about biology as well. Guess what? Nature sometimes makes mistakes. So none of your assertions have any basis in psychology, science or medicine. You have no degrees, education, training, certification of any kind or any other practical experience in gender health to backup your absurd claims. But your preoccupation and emphasis on sex says more about you and the TERF's you identify with then the transgender women you are obsessed with. Your preoccupation with the sexuallty of others is seriously creepy.
So they believe that a woman is only a woman when she can reproduce and give birth. Got it. Doesn't seem that feminist though... And how come many TERFs love to associate with people who wouldn't hesitate to take away women's rights to abortion etc.? Also doesn't seem that feminist to me.
Also, saying that a woman is who identifies as such is a legitimate definition. You just don't want to accept that gender exists and is different from sex.
@@t0bse Wat? Reading comprehension sucks on CZcams. I said based around the production of large immobile gametes. Not what you said lol.
Gender can exist and that's fine and good I suppose but it doesn't override sex. Males can identify as ladies and attempt to live as a woman (whatever that means) but such a dichotomy necessitates the overwhelming female spaces/services/statistics being clearly based on sex. Trans deserve respect, dignity and safety but that cannot impinge upon the female sex's unique needs and risks.
Its an overused phrase. Before I quit social media (apart from YT) someone called me a terf for saying that we should wait for the science before allowing trans women and women to fight in boxing matches. I also said other sports could be ruined for women who didn't start off as men if we tried to make things fair for a tiny minority without caution. I had no issue with any part of their existence but that wasn't good enough.
Sports is complicated. There should be WEIGHT CLASSES.
2020 Olympics already had mixed sports: shooting archery, judo.
_"make things fair for a tiny minority without caution,"_ UNITY is key. The second we crack, EVERYONE FALLS.
Trans are the tip of the spear, If they fall, next are Bi, LG, Feminism, Abortion, Civil Rights, Sufferage. it all goes.
i agree doug. in fact, i only want the most feminine women with the most estrogen to be on my big screen TV. i don't want to see any muscular women doing any sports. i think all women need to both be tested for testosterone in their blood AND their genitals should also be inspected by coaches and other old men who are involved in athletics.
and of course this also applies to girls under 18. i don't want any manly-looking girls to ruin my legal perving out on underage girls. the government really needs to make sure that all girls in sports are attractive, and they should do it via genetic testing, blood testing, and physical inspections.
@@sandrafrancisco Nice job at completely missing Doug's point. Transwomen have A LOT more advantages over natal women than just higher testosterone. Larger muscles, larger and denser skelatory system, larger lung capacity, etc etc...
@@Dynamic_Editor The surgeries are purely cosmetic. Transitioning doesn't change things like lung capacity, heart size, bone density, skeleton size etc etc. Even after transitioning transwomen have huge physical advantages over natal women.
FFS do you guys like losing credibility? Rowling IS NOT a TERF. All she's ever done is say that biological sex does matter while voicing valid concerns about how modern trans laws are being passed the directly effect the rights and lives of biological women. Transwomen are just that, TRANSwomen and there's nothing wrong with that but trying to call them something they aren't especially when doing so denies very basic irrefutable scientific facts that in turn effects the rights and safety of natal women.
"J.K. Rowling’s New Book-About A Cross-Dressing Serial Killer-Draws Outrage" - forbes
_she doesn't bother with the 'just asking questions' mask anymore, you can drop the pretense_
I'll debate with you for a day - prove you wrong and you'll use one of your other dummy accounts to come in and say "I agree with JKR".
You guys are so transparent.
@@rubbercable You're literally disregarding a transwoman/science professor's breakdown of the lack of logic in calling the stating of facts hurtful. Rather hard to take what you say over an actual transperson's personal experience, especially when they have the degrees backing up their understanding of the physical that is responsible for the generation of one's feelings in the first place.
@@beanwithbacon I will disregard anybody - I don't care if it's your mom - if they try to invalidate a group's inalienable rights.
As to 'transwoman scientist' are you talking about Julia Serano, cos I've read her and she supports me. SPECIFICALLY on the misogeny/transphobia language.
@@rubbercable Name one thing that JK said that was misogynistic or transphobic, just one. Simply stating that science is a thing is not doing such.
@@beanwithbacon _"Name one thing that JK said"_
"J.K. Rowling’s New Book-About A Cross-Dressing Serial Killer-Draws Outrage" - forbes
She's a transphobe - not worth scrutiny / legitimacy.
Genuine question. Why the need for 'trans women/men' and 'cis women/men', why not 'trans women/men and women/men'?
Actually 2 questions. What does the 'cis' bit mean?
CIS means 'GENDER matches SEX'
@@dougclark9921 Rubbercable got it right. As to the why not trans women/men and women/men. Tans and Cis are normally just used to clarify in instances like this where the issue of trans s being talked about. In normal life it is just women/men for most people. Cis women/men are women/men and Trans women/men are women/men.
For example, here I would refer to myself as a Cis-man. If i had any reason to state it in normal conversations about anything else I would just say I'm a man. At least in my experience with trans friends of mine it is the same. They just refer to themselves as a man normally, not a trans-man.
But think about it. Outside of conversations like these, how often do you refer to yourself or others by their gender?
@@gaowuji2091 very true. The annoying issue is when people are coerced into declaring their pronouns by heavy handed activists.
@@andyiswonderful when are people coerced into declaring their pronouns?
Intersex people are males and females with congenital conditions. It is exceedingly rare that any genital ambiguity exists amongst them. Trans people generally do not have these conditions. Trans and intersex are not the same thing.
Of course. However, intersex people existing does imply that sex is not as rigid as people believe it to be. Especially since intersex also includes people who are a different sex (assigned at birth) than their chromosomal makeup seems to imply, therefore validating the argument that chromosomes do not completely determine sex, let alone gender.
so they are not part of a binary.
@@gamj7509
Intersex conditions are a set of genetic disorders and syndromes that don't constitute separate sexes in and of themselves. There is no 3rd or 4th sex. There is no intersex condition in which a human individual has both male and female gametes. It's more than just about chromosomes.
I consider myself a progressive but I just never can seem to come to understand the arguments of trans-rights activists. No matter how many times I hear these arguments I just can't seem to be convinced. I've heard a lot of people make that argument about how TERFs ignore intersex people which I don't really think is true? I've never thought about it having a racial component at all either, but that's interesting. I don't know, are there any good CZcams channels that can break down why trans women are LITERALLY women? In my head there is a logical gap somewhere that I need to bridge.
edit: trans women is two words.
@@pranays he said he is progressive. Which means he is open to learning and not necessarily quite there yet. He asked for references and you gave him a snub instead. I don’t think that this is left either.
@@TheHesseJames Yeah I don't know what more I can say I'm being open about my own ignorance and asking for help
Well, for one things, it's trans women, not "transwomen". I guess with all of it, the point is that there is no one universal experience of womanhood. Can you explain why you don't think that trans women are women?
@@tserica I don't want to answer that and keep hurting people; I've already typed trans women incorrectly (I really didn't know it was like an anti-trans dog-whistle and I'm sorry about that) -- I just want a resource I can look at for answers.
@@RenewedRS I appreciate you taking the care and time to learn and get it right. As you can probably tell from the comment thread, there's a bit of an anti-trans hate movement going on. There always has been, to an extent, but it's been ramping up, and that does make it a little bit harder to just answer questions asked in good faith like yours seem to me to be. I'm always happy to do that.
And then to use the word “evil”, as if people who won’t say a trans woman is a real woman, is EVIL. No, we’re saying you don’t have a uterus. 💁🏼♀️ be who you truly are!
Exactly, its dangerous for men to be in womens spaces. They WANT TO BE women, that does not CONVERT THEM INTO women. You can be born male or female, it is binary
Okay, Hysterectomies exist. Biological sex and gender are not same. Totally, be who you truly are!
Many women do not have a uterus. They are still women. And they are being who they truly are, that is not for you to decide.
what about intersex men who have female and male reproductive organs?
@@lL338 Biological sex and gender are the same. You do realize that gender theory was a concept of a child sexual abuser, who's kink was turning boys into girls, right?
Although you are correct that transwomen have existed before JK Rowling's infamous statements, I do not think that you are playing fair in this interview. I cannot comment on what Olivia Records did back in the day, but here are a few things I know for sure:
1)There is nothing transphobic about what JK Rowling wrote. Don't believe me? Go and read what she wrote on the topic for yourself. People who decry her so-called transphobic comments have a zero-sum approach to life--and cannot bear to admit that biological women actually do have valid concerns about the very aggressive and rapid erasure of women's rights in the name of inclusion. All you have to do is label biological women who speak up TERFs, and everyone knows that it then is no longer necessary to respect any of their concerns.
2) Why do we have to choose between the rights of transwomen and biological women in the first place? Who is keeping that false dichotomy going?
3) You may think that you are being very radical, and finally articulating the death blow to anyone who questions some of the tenets of trans activism--by making a distinction between white feminists and Black feminists-- but you are actually being disingenuous and/or short-sighted. Look around You Tube and you will find Black women who are also very concerned about what is happening to women's rights today. Some go as far as pointing out the inherent racism and colonialism in much of today's discourse regarding the controversy. Don't just take my word for it; do your own research.
4) We should by all means protect the rights of the trans community, but the rights of the trans community should not supersede the rights of women and girls.
You are lying to protect a billionaire who abuses UK libel laws to silence her critics and RTs known antisemites.
@@arklestudios Actually, I don't have the power to protect a billionaire from whatever you think she is doing. 😂 And what is so threatening about what I wrote that you have to accuse me of lying? Do I not get to speak my truth?
I especially find issue with the constantly trotted out argument that a transwoman is a woman in the same way that a black woman is a woman; why do they insist on comparing males to actual females?
@@xitlallicommentstoday2169 Let me know when you start telling the truth, and not just repeating the same TERF nonsense I've been hearing for like 2 years.
@@thephoenix756 Trans woman is two words.
Lol go to any hood and ask the black women there what they think about trans people. Also trans women arent women. They are TRANS women. Thats why that category exist.
I'm in the hood now! Where do I find the black women?
Are you aware of fucking racist that is? Also, using ur logic, cis women aren’t women either, they’re CIS women, which doesn’t really mean anything bc the experiences of ciswomen and transwomen largely are the same. If you define womanhood as something purely biological when then congratulations, you’re doing the patriarchy’s work for it, reducing women down to basic roles that they just fit in society. Being Team terf means your anti Team feminism, bc terfs always align with far right conservatives that bring women’s rights backwards not forwards. And if you genuinely think transwomen keep male privilege then you should see how many transwomen are brutally beaten, raped, and murdered simply for being a woman. Educate yourself before opening your crusty ass mouth pls
nice low expectations kind of racism.
Watch what happens when I emphasise, Steven. Trans women are trans WOMEN. See? Owned.
@@alisonpark600 First off the only one who needs some real education is you because it seems that you lack knowledge of simple biology. Second i never said trans women had male privilage? I simply said that they are trans women not women. Theres a difference thats why the word exist i dont care what they experience because biology is still there no matter how much you want to deny it. And "cis" women is nothing but new speak bullshit and not a real word it just means regular women. Also the patriarchy is not a real thing, atleast not anymore sorry to say. If anything society now is hella gynocentrist.
Word salad, no dressing.
Well I'm old as the hills, but I know the oppression my friends and I experienced at the hands of male friends, coworkers and especially male employers. I was physically violated and molested numerous times as a teenager. My friends were too.
That is a normal part of growing up whether you are white or a person of color. I was intimidated and pushed around, ignored and dismissed and systematically paid less than the men doing the same job around me. If you think I'm going to give up whatever gains the feminist movement has fought for and won over this trans-women issue you fail to recognize how traumatizing growing up female was.
If you are white you cannot say with any honesty to your black friend that you understand what they have gone through growing up in our racist society. It's the same for a man who is saying he understands what it's like to be raised a girl in our sexist society. He can't and doesn't.
Now that many states in the U.S. are voting to take women's right to choose the size of their families away from them, it is more crucial than ever to remember the long struggle we have fought for (somewhat equal) rights under the law. Of course, trans-women should be free and safe to be who they want to be but they shouldn't be competing against girls and women in sports, and should have their own bathrooms and dressing rooms rather than infiltrating female only spaces.
@@ArcanumAscent
Hopefully, a conscious Artificial Super-Intelligence emerges in the future. May the conscious ASI solve humanity's problems by giving it a specific experience it will never forget: total annihilation.
Women = biological women
Men = biological men
Transwomen = biological men
I stand with Harry Potter
But Harry Potter said JKR sucks.
So did Hermione.
BTW: thanks .. biologically men, can still be trans women
SEX: chromosomal, GENDER: societal. They are not the same thing.
I don’t see where you fit into your own analysis, Matt.
@@rubbercable Sex: Male or Female
Gender: Masculine or Feminine
There's no such thing as "transwomen," they are just feminine men
You people really have no clue how endocrinology works, do you? Now, gender is a totally separate thing from sexual biology anyway, so a trans woman is a woman regardless of any medical transition so long as her gender identity is woman. That said, medical transition, ya know, *changes biology* .
Literally no trans woman is saying she has the same sexual biology as a typical cis woman, but if she's been on HRT she sure as heck does not have the same biology as a cis man either, and any medical professional who would treat her as such would be committing gross malpractice. Because yes, newsflash, hormones have a huge impact on one's body. Surgeries that take away your body's production of gametes... *change your biology* .
Again, to reiterate one more time since transphobes never seem to get it: No one. is saying. you can change chromosomes. We're saying chromosomes are not all that sexual biology is. That's scientific and medical fact.
@@stephaniel2850 gender isn't "female or woman" sex is either "female or male" and gender is "feminine or masculine" Just because you identify your gender as feminine does not change your sex to female
"Anti-trans feminists -- those who argue that 'trans women' are not women" ...
How is this controversial? There is no requirement for one's beliefs about oneself to be accurate. Beliefs need to be checked against reality before taken to be fact. How does the woman being interviewed DEFINE 'a woman'? That's a serious question, so please don't give me any angry or sarcastic responses. I will be polite in my discourse if you are -- I genuinely don't understand the argument she's making for why someone who identifies as a woman IS a woman.
They arent women
Ok so you've established that both black and white women should be considered women despite (stereotypically) having different experiences... But what makes an adult human male a woman?
Now do a video about the ‘logic’ of transsexualism.
You can get that with BlaireWhite.
She pretends to be 'one-of-the-good-ones'
Five steps back for real women, two steps forward towards a newly revolutionized patriarchy.
Trans people don't represent the patriarchy and that's a completely idiotic and out of touch belief to have.
The fuck you talking about?
Yeah that’s definitely an accurate estimation of what’s going on in this video (as opposed to what people like the TERFs are ultimately aiming for)
So it’s radical to think trans aren’t real women but it’s not radical to ignore science and people who think trans-women aren’t women…? Aren’t you all being intolerant of our beliefs?
also intolerant of biology and reality
just a question, do you think a biological man that "transitions" into a woman should be able to compete in womens sports?
no
They would never want to because they know they’re at a disadvantage.
@@misssparkle8317Why do you say that?
I'm not on either side here, being a cis male, but this guest doesn't make a great argument. Strawman fallacies galore.
cis male here too. we hold bloodsports debates on trans, nazi/stalinist issues.
You're invited to the Vaush channel if you want to see people live or die by their debate.
No holds barred debate between streamers with their subs count/credibility at stake.
Wtf is a cis? You people just make words up I swear
@@seanjohnson9401 Yeah it's only been around for about 130 years.
@@seanjohnson9401 You'll figure it out. It can't be easy waking up from 20-year coma but I believe in you.
@@rubbercable I don't think Vaush would be proud of your comment.
Yup, I’m still a TERF after this nonsense. Unapologetically. The mental gymnastics of post-modernism is hysterical.
Just to let you know that you are not a feminist because your movements are funded by FAR RIGHT GROUPS and you are also teaming up with the far right who are ANTI-ABORTION, BIG HOMPHOBES, and you have done nothing for women and girls, you only use "protect women and girls" to hide your bigotry. Also you are working with people like Matt Walsh and NEO NAZIS who not only wanna strip trans people of their rights but also wanna strip cis women of their rights as well. Yeah there goes your so called "feminism" good job.
@@Simpy553 Last time I checked, conservatives are the ones who know what a woman is. Conservatives are the ones protecting women AND the unborn. Most conservatives don't mind exceptions for abortion if it's the life of a mother or from an unfortunate circumstance. Conservatives know that biology speaking, men have a physical advantage over women so having men compete with women in sports is ridiculous. Conservatives are ones encouraging women to fend for themselves (2nd Amendment comes to mind).
Terfism is a plague on humanity
If trans women were women then you could just say "women". You have to say trans women because there's a difference and we all inherently know it.
"If cis women were women then you could just say "women". You have to say cis women because there's a difference and we all inherently know it."
"If white women were women then you could just say "women". You have to say white women because there's a difference and we all inherently know it."
"If American women were women then you could just say "women". You have to say American women because there's a difference and we all inherently know it."
not everyone uses reductionist language like you, try to analyze your statement with first-order predicate logic next time...
@@SKmaric transwomen are sexist men
I'll never understand how folks can view human rights as a zero-sum game.
I'll never understand how people can view animal rights as a zero sum game.
If one group wants rights which impinge on the rights of another group, one of the groups has to give up a right to accommodate the other.
It's not TERFs per se.
First they'll attack trans, then they'll roll back to Bi, then Gay/Lesbians, then Reproductive Rights.. they'll roll it right back if they can.
Folks just think that words have definitions, and are not on board with radical postmodernist deconstructivism.
@@BigTallLankyDude But which group is giving up rights for the other in this case? No one is, but the privileged they enjoyed is threatened by equality.
"Biology is NOT destiny" is probably the most basic, foundational principle of feminist theory. That is WHY (some) feminists argue that you don't have to physically alter your sex to have a different gender identity.
Woah, are you saying... biology isn’t the only science? Other things matter too? :O
Yeah but terfs want to tie gender to binary sex
@@keithmadden9260 Do they? I'm not sure if I completely understand the term & who fits into it, but feminist theory teaches that gender is fluid.
@@lizzy-wx4rx _"not sure if I completely understand"_
transphobes are transphobes.
TERFs are transphobes who say "how can I be a transphobe if I'm fighting for the rights of the -white man- I mean women"
It's using one identity to hide from criticizm while attack another.
They just make things up and then claim "TERF say".
Officially unsubscribed
This isn't an airport your departure does not need to be announced.
@@ThePanMan11 lol, I'm stealing that one too.
Yes, these people are foolishly enabling people's mental health problems
@@moe433 By transitioning as prescribed by mental health experts. Guess who's word I'm gonna take. That of actual experts or some random smooth brained person on the internet.
@@ThePanMan11 ?? you want to take the word of "experts" who are willing to chemically castrate an individual and make them into something neither male nor female ?? something that is incapable of reproducing human life ??
Why didn’t they bring an actual radical feminist on rather than asking a person who’s uninformed on the issue and presenting it as the only argument?
I completely defend and have defended Trans-women's right to live their life as a Transgender Women and be recognized as such but I'm Done with people trying to redefine what a women is...it is simple...either you were born female and lived your life as female...therefore a Woman...or you were born male and have become a Transgender Woman...therefore a Transgender Women. Transgender women are not "Women", their "Transgender Women". It doesn't have to be a big deal and transgender people should never have to suffer persecution; neither should I. People trying to redefine what I am or take away my identity in order to be somehow Politically correct is just another form of bias
How does it detract from your identity if you let a trans woman express whom she is
"people trying to redefine what a women is"
Oh look, something that nobody is doing. The absolute brain worms of people pretending they ever supported trans people, either trans women, trans men, or trans non-binary folks. I dunno, any time anybody whines about "political correctness", I just wanna give them a wedgie for watching Ben Shapiro.
I like to think of it as two separate things: the social (how you're seen) and the medical (how your body works). Modern language distinguishes these through separate words. Cis women have both, and trans women can have anywhere from just the social to theoretically both. Cis men have neither, and trans men can have anywhere from just the medical to theoretically none. It's an odd system, but it seems to work.
@@charliekahn4205 big agree. treating either sphere of the conversation, social or biological, as a true binary is just setting yourself up for failure and confusion
You sound like my mom telling me to marry a woman so people won't think i am bisexual. lol.
Terfs are right. Stay mad.
All of this discussion exists entirely within privileged classes
True - but trans-abuse happens in all walks of life.
Preach
Yes, trans people are DEFINITELY a privileged class and not a persecuted minority
It's almost like someone who grew into adulthood identifying as male never experienced the ramifications of misogyny. And after transitioning also won't experience the ramifications of misogyny but instead the ramifications of transphobia. It's almost like XX women and XY women have two totally different experiences of identity! Crazy!
The diff experience is when trans women are not able to 'pass' in everyday society.
With puberty blockers and earlier treatment, this will not be as big an issue.
It's almost like you didn't even watch the video where that was addressed as a moot point. Experiences define individuals, not genders. The cultural commonalities don't speak to anything biologically-related. There are also AFABs who are born with health conditions that means they can miss out on some of these 'essential' physcial experiences, and these TERFs are excluding them as well. At least in their arguments they are, but they wouldn't dare actually exclude them, because the disdain they hold for trans folks has nothing to do with anything that CAN be explained logically. It's just hate.
If you don't think trans women don't also experience misogyny you are completely deluded and out of your depth. People don't get a DNA test from you before deciding how they are going to treat you.
There is no such thing as an "XY woman". That's a male and a male can never be a woman.
Emma is so intelligent, but this wasn’t an intelligent discussion. Would love to hear an hour of thought-provoking discourse with representation from both trans activists and women’s rights advocates. Listen to stories of women who have been raped and impregnated in prison by trans women with full male genitalia. Hear concerns about the erasure of words like “women” and “mother” from our language. Talk to women athletes whose records have been smashed by trans women who haven’t even had M to F surgery. We can treat the trans community with dignity and respect without rolling back women’s hard won rights.
*The California jail where women say guards and medics preyed on them* - guardian
*Feds: Florida Prison Staff Beat and Raped Women Inmates* - courthouse news service
*188x rape of female inmates (1x was by trans)* - _Womens's Prison UK-2018:_
*AP investigation: Women’s prison fostered culture of abuse* - AP
_conservatives don't GAF about prisoners, it's just a talking point for transphobia_
Sports needs work. Weight classes should be considered like boxing.
2020 Olympics already have shooting, archery, judo as mixed.
WTF lol if you want to listen to anti-trans propaganda like what you're describing go somewhere else.
@@moodycxnt "I don't like MR reporting on this racial issue without the KKK getting their say!"
@@moodycxnt @Nick VK Number of trans people murdered in 2020: 350. Number of women murdered in 2020: 47,000. Sources: Forbes & UN Office on Drugs and Crime. Don't call yourself progressive if you dismiss violence against women and girls.
"If the term "intersex" is to retain any meaning, the term should be restricted to those conditions in which chromosomal sex is inconsistent with phenotypic sex, or in which the phenotype is not classifiable as either male or female. Applying this more precise definition, the true prevalence of intersex is seen to be about 0.018%, almost 100 times lower than Fausto-Sterling s estimate of 1.7%."
Lol this shit got the terfs and the non intersectional feminists angry in the comments 😂
It has all the sane people speaking out. Only Twitter sjw’s defend this nonsense shit
@@Neofilmcritic what's an sjw
@@Neofilmcritic Yeah that’s why support from trans people as only been increasing in recent years with ciswomen tending to be the most supportive lmao have fun living in a different reality
@@alisonpark600 that's true, all my female coworkers support me or dont care about me. I have just received harrassment from online femcels.
@@gamj7509 It’s weird bc that’s my experience too, my mother loves me and so does my best friend who I’ve literally only grown most close to since starting my transition, but these people act like we’re invading women’s spaces instead of being humbly welcomed into them.
Oh geez, these people are clueless
we are living in clown world right now
Golden rule: nobody has access to someone else's mental state to know what their experience actually is.
Interesting. It’s almost as though whenever someone says/thinks “if I was you, I’d do XYZ” they’re full of BS, because they would do EXACTLY what you’re doing if they were you.. because they’d be exactly you.. not them with their ideas in their brains..
And I’ve heard so many wrong people wrongly say the falsehood that they’d do stuff differently if they were the same exact person someone else is..
Good point. With that in mind, how can a trans woman or man possibly claim to know that their experience matches the female or male experience?
@@BigTallLankyDude they just know that their experience in whatever body they were born with is not what they want.
A lot of people realise they are trans through gender euphoria, the most stereotypical example being putting on clothes of the opposite gender.
It can also be gender dysphoria, just knowing that the current situation is wrong.
They don't claim that they are currently feeling the experience of the other gender, its just that at some point they realise that they would prefer it.
@@BigTallLankyDude they don't...? their experience matches the trans experience bro... why are you invested in this argument, being in all comment threads?
The term TERF itself is exclusionary and dangerously so. It excludes nuance and gray areas, and applies binary "logic" to a broad spectrum that demands introspection rather than outright rejection.
Sex is real. I thought the argument was that sex and gender are different but the woman explaining keeps conflating the terms. In a world where people identify as non-binary, does sex really matter? (outside of going to the physician of course)
Like it or not yes it does. You can't determine your sex any more than you can determine your species it's genetic.
@@thehappyclam3942 Reread what I wrote. You're projecting an argument I didn't make.
@@shinakuma1779 what people identify as in no way changes what they are.
Maybe you should watch it again because at no time did they conflate the 2.
The argument keeps changing. Some years ago, a trans activist would happily agree that a trans person is someone whose sex is one way, while their gender is the other, implicitly accepting that a trans woman is male and a trans man is female. Not any more.
Who wants to tell her that phenotype is biological. Skin color isn't actually an assignment, only racial lables are. Skin color is a usually immutable fact, just like your sex is.
Thanks for covering this topic. Trans issues are sadly sparse in leftist media these days except for disclaimers of "well yeah I support equal rights for everyone!".
What leftist media are you watching? In my experience most leftists are radically pro trans
@@cyberwitch116 You would only need to read the comments on this video to know that what you're saying is bullshit.
I know a couple of channels that are hypersupportive of trans. Debate techniques/debatebros.
They can be considered a little .. salty/bloodthirsty compared to Majority Report though. DemonMama,Vaush
Their community have been trained in effective advocacy, and would destroy TERF talking points. They debate nazis and tankies too.
@Alabama Man Special Edition To define is to limit and to constrain, thus defining "woman" restricts what a woman can be, therefore making the concept in and of itself sexist.
@@floatyboat9144 yes, the responses are garbage, but not necessarily representative of the beliefs of leftists broadly. The video only has like 5k views, and CZcams comments sections are known for harboring a lot of transphobia. But the original comment was saying that leftist media figures aren’t talking about trans issues, or are dismissing trans people’s concerns as something to be solved through vague gestures at equality. I would say this is only true of “leftists” who think coalition building means giving massive credence to the right on every slightly positive thing they do eg. greenwald, krystal ball, etc. whose bigotries tend to be much more than just transphobia.
What does the term “terf” even mean anymore?
I respect trans women’s right to identify how they choose. I have no problem with using their preferred pronouns. But I’ve been called a terf just because I don’t think someone with a fully developed male body should be competing in the same sports leagues as people who were born female. I’ve seen others be called terfs just because they didn’t want to have sex with a trans woman.
It seems the definition of terf has changed from someone who opposes trans rights into anyone who disagrees with them on any issue.
Aw, is muffin being asked to justify their bigotry? And then getting mad when their inability to do so is rightly identified as irrational hatred?
I'm weeping salt tears for you.
@@michaelccozens wait... supporting trans women's rights to choose how they identify and using the correct pronouns is irrational hatred?
Applying this to someone who is so close to your own beliefs seems like a wild exaggeration and only validates the original poster's point.
@@michaelccozens *sigh* This type of immature attitude, and refusal to engage in respectful debate just pushes people towards team terf.
Can you explain how anything I said is bigoted?
@@gaybuzzlightyear1294 Because "fully developed male body" can wildly vary. There are women born with without a second X chromosome or partially missing X chromosome that don't produce much estrogen, there are women that have PCOS and increased androgens and testosterones circulating in her blood stream, there are people with XXY chromosomes (Klinefelter syndrome) that have far less testosterone, body hair, breast enlargement, intersex people, men missing testicles, women missing ovaries, etc. To challenge an athlete on their "body" on whether they can compete in a category or not actually becomes vastly complicated because the answer is not as clear cut as TERFs think. I'm not calling you a TERF, but hormones and appearance can be very poor indicators of what gender somebody is.
Basically. These folks have patholigized an entire new terminology to fit ideological goals.
Lol entire video is hot woke mess
Man = Adult male human.
Woman = Adult female human.
That's fine. Also:
Sex = biological, chromosomal, decided at birth. (no trans contests this)
Gender = social construct, what we're discussing
@@rubbercable Are you saying that there’s zero connection between sex and gender?
@@CatotheE No; there IS a connection. Like your skin-color and police interactions with you.
Biology does inform societal, and vice versa. But we can work on that.
@@rubbercable It seems that it pretty much every society, the primary role of women was to have and raise children. Can trans women work on that? Is that a social construct? The ability to give birth?
Talk to Kara Dansky.
Talk to Vaush.
I love women
You will have to define exactly what that means
@@hammill444 no he doesn't. You just want to call him a bigot. His criteria is his and doesn't need explanation
@@shonehi546tim9 Uh, no. I happen to agree with his sentiment. It was sarcasm.
Especially the ones with beards and cocks.
The problem with a lot of liberal channels like MR is they never invite gender critical feminists to present their side of the argument. MR will debate libertarians and conservatives, but it seems they draw the line at gender critical. Why not allow someone like Kathleen Stock, Abigail Shrier, or Exulansic (who is ex-trans) to present the other side of the argument? And since conservatives appear to be the only ones airing gender critical arguments, they end up looking more "fair and balanced" on the trans issue. Excluding reasonable criticism of gender ideology is not a good look for the left.
because framing human and civil rights as an “argument” gives undue legitimacy to the opposition. Other people’s human rights are not a “debate” to be won.
Trans people are not debate subjects for you to toy with.
"the problem with liberal media is that they refuse to air my bigotry. That's why conservative media looks better to me"
@@Im__Andy-f6x How is JK Rowling asserting "biology is real" infringing on anyone else's human rights?
@@pewmanfoibles7557 _" JK Rowling asserting "biology is real" infringing on anyone else's human rights?"_
It's called incitement.
I can go into the times in history where negation of identity lead to violence if you want.
Biology: It exists.
Societal constructs exist too.
Blablabla...
JK Rowling did nothing wrong (besides writing Harry Potter).
Harry Potter and Hermione and the rest of the group hate JKR.
@@rubbercable they are fictional characters created by JK Rowling. As for the bratty actors I very much doubt they actually read what JK wrote re womans rights and the trans issue, as it was completely reasonable
@@sharee3135 She's a billionaire gone 'full-Kanye'.
I don't know how Black people were brought into this topic, but I will say this. Yes there a trans people in the black community, but they are not really even paid that much attention to. Nor are they causing any problems amongst us in our communities. We just let them be.
Sex and gender don't vary independently (for about 99.6% they correspond) and even if we agreed that there's a spectrum, there's no equal distribution across the spectrum.
All trans identities are not equally valid. I tend to be courteous and treat everyone as the gender they want to identify with, other than the obvious autogynephiles (go ahead, enjoy your fetish, but I'm not going to participate in it) and the enbies, which is a fashion trend and a bad cope for several different mental conditions for which gender ambivalence happens to be a possible symptom. There is way more uniformity among those gender non-conformists than among men and women respectively and pronouns are grammatical devices, not nicknames and coming up with an ever-expanding list thereof kinda defeats the purpose.
I don't think we do these people much of a favor when we give in to their narcissism and hysteria.
Found a terf.
@@angiesmith5995 as if pointing out that I acknowledge the empirical fact that Homo sapiens is a gender dimorphic species was an insult 😅
You guys are like creationists, the church of woke is just another Christian heresy.
I'm not a radical feminist
@@hustlehustlehustle _"gender dimorphic"_ - There you go learning the buzzwords - but keep falling over the same sentence.
The sun doesn't orbit the earth anymore. Gender is not dimorphic.
@@rubbercable to the extent that sex and gender correspond (which is in about 99,6 % of the population, last time I checked) there is plenty of (here's another buzzword) verisimilitude in the statement.
People who aren't willing to discuss the concepts tend to argue about semantics. Your criticism of a non-native speaker's command of the English language is a bit xenophobic too.
I am so thankful my brain and genitals aligned with my identity cause lord knows I have enough going on already.
No shit, right? Lol. Whenever I inevitably come across the phrase "cis privilege" in the wild for the first time, I'm going to unironically nod along.
@Matt Well, that's true in the fact that mental illness can be genetic.
Just as a trans person doesn't have the same experiences of menstruation or patriarchal oppression, I don't have the experience of transitioning or dressing as other than what I was called at birth. There's nothing wrong with placing a firm distinction between women & trans women especially since trans are beginning to want to be defined exclusively as women & occasionally to our detriment. I find it fascinating that m to f trans are so assertive with entering into women's spaces & competitions and negating our feelings about being biological women but f to m don't engage in the same behavior. I wonder how much patriarchy influences the dynamic.
*The assertion comes as a reaction from to the naked hostility.* Someone mentioned Julia Serano to me 1 hr ago:.. *how transphobia comes out sounding like misogyny.*
_"Once in San Francisco I saw a trans woman dressed like an average feminine woman walk past a straight couple on the street. _*_The man turned to the woman and sneered, “Did you see all that crap he’s wearing?”_*_ He was referring to her dress and jewelry and makeup and all that. _*_If a trans man had walked by, they might also have ridiculed him for being transgender. But I doubt very much they would have made fun of his masculine clothing"_* Transphobia is generally levelled at transwomen with more hostility.
"I find it fascinating that m to f trans are so assertive with entering into women's spaces & competitions and negating our feelings about being biological women but f to m don't engage in the same behavior."
What TERF website did you get this nonsense from? Also, are you even aware how much you sound like homophobes in the 90s and racists in the 60s?
But hey, points for acknowledging trans men exist. usually transphobes don't do that. And often when they do it';s to infantilize them and go one about "how sad it is that these pretty girls are chopping off their breasts," because transphobes reduce women to their body parts the same way misogynists do.
@@rubbercable Interesting. So there's a combination of disrespect for femininity in anti m to f transphobia...but even more specifically there's disdain that a person with gender based societal position and power would choose femininity instead. Perhaps there's also an aversion to masculine features with feminine attire. That sounds VERY specific to the trans experience, so I'm not certain why it's such a sticking point for bio women to claim experiences which are distinctly foreign. We should respect trans women's right to share their experience, exist, transition, thrive... BUT...it violates bio women's rights to ignore that the two groups are very different.
I will never know what male privilege feels like, or have that advantage.
I think that respect for each groups circumstances and needs can only diminish and muddle when we purposely blur lines that are actually pretty distinct.
@@arklestudios How something "sounds" has little to do with the merit of what's said and of course I couldn't possibly be speaking from lived experience, could I? How is asserting that different people ARE different a phobia. 🙃
Why do certain males assume my talking points are someone else's or from a website and I'm just a parrot? What era of oppression does that sound like?
Trans women have gone to black girls rock DEMANDING we put the spotlight on them, despite bio women building the platform. Testerone provides competitive advantage in sports that provides transwomen advantage! Some of these transwomen also actively denigrate bio women while demanding we erase our unique existence as bio women.
Saying I would like to have my own space with people who share my experiences is not a phobia...however it could be seen as oppression to tell someone that their space & lived experience isn't actually theirs!
@@tinebean116 _"I will never know what male privilege "_ - I dunno what axe you have to grind, and I dunno what privilege you're talking about..
_"Perhaps there's also an aversion to masculine features with feminine attire"_ - just an just saying the language that's levelled by transphobes is adjacent to misogyny.
Is any real (not ill) person taking this seriously in the private of their own mind. I'm pretty sure this is straight up sexism.
💯
It's really great to see a channel that isn't a trans-focused channel cover this topic. And very good discussion.
something for you two to reflect on. You don't need to invoke racism to conclude that sex is dimorphic in humans. You just need grade 3 biology.
Gynecology (n.) also gynaecology, "science of women's health and of the diseases peculiar to women," 1847, from French gynécologie, from Latinized form of Greek gynaiko-, combining form of gynē "woman, female," from PIE root *gwen- "woman." Second element is from French -logie "study of," from Greek (see -logy)...
Hmm... wonder if gynecologists are going to have start pretending that mutilated pen ises are vagi nas.
But wait, women don't have anything in common, so how do they have diseases in common? How do the scientists even know what to study? Makes no sense.
The doctors must be biological essentialists too. We need to revolutionize medicine to make gynecology more inclusive!
1847? Good grief. Did you not listen to anything Emma Vigeland said about the pseudoscience of Genetic Determinism? I'll enlighten you as appears you haven't. It has its roots in slavery and the white supremacy movement of the late 1800's that lead to the rise of fascism and nazism. So that's a hell of a thing to be quoting. Maybe a little critical thinking and contextualizing might be beneficial to you before you start quoting primitive and outdated medical definitions from 200 years ago? Especially from an era where male doctors believed women suffered from hysteria once a month and shouldn't be taken seriously. That they should be drugged and treated with "medical devices for women" by their doctors. Jesus F'ing Christ.
@@ainnochaim9450 What the fuck are you talking about? Where did you come up with that warped analogy? A mutilated penis has nothing to do with gender or gender confirmation. A gender identifying man who's had his penis mutilated in a traumatic event is suffering immense physical and emotional trauma. The last thing he would want is a vagina. And it would be a urologist and plastic surgeon he would go to not a gynecologist. Jesus Christ, the scientific illiteracy is astounding. Fear of a mutilated penis is strictly your issue.
RIP to all the black slave women who tortured for this discipline
My take on the TERFs Is that they seem to think that being a woman is some special, magical thing and somehow that special magic will be diminished if trans women are afforded the level of human dignity that they deserve.
no magic about it. just anatomy
@@brucecarter8296 anatomy Has to do with sex, not gender. Sorry that words confuse you, champ.
@@rabidgoon a dude believing that he was born in the wrong body and was meant to have a vag sounds more like magical thinking to me
@@brucecarter8296 And yet most people accept the idea that there's an invisible, all knowing all powerful being up in the sky that judges you infinitely for finite crimes just fine.
@@itsabug4274 one crazy nonsensical belief doesn't justify the other.
Too many people think their trauma is the worst or only trauma and that is their view of the world. And when they find agreement, it can become a politicized group or a cult.
This is litterally the republican party, only the trauma is that the Mr potatohead company changed their name.
All groups are political. Sufferage, CivilRights, reproductive autonomy.
On trauma: trans are constant victims of violence.
Out of 6k+ respondants, 40% engaged in selfharm. 30% attempted -TOS-comment.-
Obviously, some people were available for comment because some were successful in their attempt.
Let's be careful about minimising accounts of other people's trauma.
@@ThePanMan11 They lost they minds when Green M&M lost her high heels. "Not a social construct",.. my A..
@@rubbercable yes it's an absolute joke.
AHEM... Judge not, that ye be not judged
There are so many contradictions in the whole trans rights 'debate'. I often see male authors criticised for not being able to write convincing or three dimensional female characters, but that shouldn't the the case if you follow this logic right?
How so?
they clearly mean cis men
@@icemeoutlikeelsa how do you know they’re “cis”?
Sam, please don’t put your show down this road
Why did someone draw glasses and hair on the thumb in your profile pic
I think Sam can handle a couple repugnant TERFs rearing their ugly mugs. It’ll be ok.
@Sway Guevara You're just mad that it's not just two genders that refuse to sleep with you anymore
@Sway Guevara masculinity/androgyny/femininity
This argument doesn't hold water when it comes to sports.
It simply isn't fair to women when biological men compete against them in their sports. No amount of estrogen blockers will change heart and lung size, limb length, all sorts of things with which men have an innate advantage.
Otherwise, I don't see why trans women shouldn't have the same rights in all other areas of life.
_"argument doesn't hold water when it comes to sports"_
@Cornelia If they got the muscle mass, go for it.
@Cornelia I wish you were right, but it isn't as simple as making sure the T-levels are equal. Attributes like higher bone density and stronger joints offer an extreme advantage for trans women even in weightlifting.
The cis women you mentioned that are banned use performance enhancing drugs to increase their testosterone, which is not out of the ordinary, and SHOULD be banned.
I am all for equality, but we need to be careful not to trample on other peoples' rights in the process, especially those who have been historically oppressed in sports.
@@rubbercable men are stronger pound for pound. Men have higher max oxygen pound for pound due to heart and lung differences. Women are more susceptible to injury due to hip, knee and elbow joint angles. Women are more susceptible to injury because of connective tissue differences. Women's skulls are thinner, they're brains are less protected in a collision/strike/contact and they're brain cells die more easily due to trauma.
@@brandonjameson1 _"cis women you mentioned that are banned use performance enhancing"_
No, the woman in question naturally had a high T-level.
But to your point, they all use anabolics anyway. Just use musclemass/weightclass.
“You’ve never been sexually harassed like young girls are!”
Okay I’m a cis dude so not for nothing but I’m pretty sure being assigned male at birth and then realizing you’re actually a woman is NO FUCKIN WALK IN THE PARK EITHER
Nobody said the mentally ill have a ‘WALK IN THE PARK.’ Of course, many are suffering immensely as well. But that doesn’t make them women.
@@bdb4350 GFY, bigot.
@@AngeliqueStP don’t worry he was basically just crying for love.
@@AngeliqueStP You seem like a real POS, but I do hope you heal.
@Cornelia look
Someone correct my ignorance here please.
I have no problem with how people wish to label themselves, but is it inherently wrong to think trans women are not women?
Certainly not to belittle any experiences they my have or diminish the status of a trans woman versus a traditionally classified woman, but don’t we have all sorts of different categories of gender now?
I certainly understand the distinction should not be used for any type of bias, but It was not clear to me that was the point.
No, it’s entirely valid to express the truth that ‘transwomen’ are not women.
In fact, the very idea that they are women is rooted in pure sexist bullshit, and gross stereotypes of behaviors/ interests of each gender.
Any non-hijacked fake accounts, pretending to be an American wish to chime in?
@@seanpatrick1243 Are you sure you know what you’re asking for…
Yes. Trans and Cis are different but women are women. Birth sex is only ever relevent in extremely specific and rare circumstances. The overwhealming majority of the time, there need be no difference between trans and cis women and they tgerefore should be treated equally
Defending self-identification as the necessary and sufficient definition of gender to the absurd certainly doesn't help to achieve the goal of incorporating the psychological aspect of identity into the framing of gender.
Firstr MILFs, then GILFs and now TERFs. It would make sense to trademark TILF or DERF
My only question is about the logic behind saying 'transwomen are women'. Doesn't that inherently keep transwomen inside the gender binary and erase transness?
Its like saying "Packers fans are Packers fans", I'm sure there are more football teams then just two, doesn't change that fact though.
Trans women don't care about the 'trans' component(it's a concession).
They care about the 'woman' part of the signifier.
Well some trans people are binary. Some are not. Being trans only means that you don't identify with your gender asigned at birth.
Accepting transwomen as women doesn't erase intersex individuals, it's not mutually exclusive.
@@rubbercable That makes sense when it comes to personal gender dysphoria. I guess I meant more in the political sense, trans people as they exist as part of the LGBT+ community.
What trans I mean men's rights activists have to understand is that women will not stop telling men no
true 6ft 2 hairy bearded muscular trans men like buck angel should be in women's bathrooms because he was born one
How does this jive with "men have no right to an opinion on abortion"? If there is no such thing "men" how can you say they have no right to an opinion about something that belongs to "women", which also don't exist?
When did they say there's no such thing as men?
@@russellward4624 At around 2:11 the claim is that biology is not destiny, which certainly means that anyone can change at any time, ERGO: If I can change at any time, what I claim to be has no permanence. If a man can decide to be a woman, then certainly I can claim to be a woman to be included in a dialogue and then return to claiming my biological gender when done.
@@minddog bruh I don't think you can change, on a whim, how you want to express your gender identity to be a better representation of yourself
@@swews8157 I tend to agree with that but I don't think Emma's guest or maybe even Emma would agree. The "logic" certainly allows for it. If gender is fluid, I can do or be whatever I want whenever I want. Which may or may not be the right idea. I'm just asking questions without agenda. If a line can be drawn, where does it get drawn and who gets to determine that?
Let's simplify this then-- the person who is pregnant has a right to choose what to do with their own fucking body. Peace out.
why then do we never hear of trans men begging to compete with men, or use the men’s bathroom, or ANYTHING? pause yourself and consider that maybe just maybe you’re misogynistic in that respect.
So I can say I grew up with a trans experience? Why does that mean something?
Did you grow up experiencing gender dysphoria?
@@Junebug89 i dressed as a boy but never felt like one. I feel dysphoric now though, I don't feel like I identify with my gender. Im very masculine but a woman
@@Junebug89 gender dysphoria is not a trans experience. If you think about it. Calling them trans is not legit because they're just uncomfortable with what they have and that doesn't mean they have to have a vagina or a penis. You can call me a transphobe if only you can defend your logic with mine.
@@Jahid_n yea a lot of people experience dysphoria, including cis people. I'm glad someone gets it
@@ts4743 There's no such thing called "cis" people. Unneccessary prefix
“Any fight towards who is the biggest victim usually doesn’t turn out well.” 6:39 Nice. Just a married, white, cis, brown-eyed, gereatric-millennial, male, with a beard, but isn’t that predominantly what the entire movement has centered itself around? Anyway, I’ll crawl back into my hole now. ❤
this is such an absurd staw man
Radical feminist do not insist that there's one way to be a woman in fact we embraced tomboys. It is trans rights activists that insist if a little boy likes the color pink and wearing dresses that he might be transgender
Feminists believe in freedom of self
You obviously have literally no idea what trans rights activists actually believe. Why is it that the least educated like you are always the loudest and most hateful.
I don't believe you. I think 99.999% of the time parents don't want their child to be trans and actively resist the idea. I think almost all cases that are posed as "a boy likes pink quick tell them they're a girl" is a reactionary response to someone not actively trying to turn a trans child into a cis one.
A question, do you see any similarity between the idea that "trans ideology" is turning kids trans and "the gay agenda" where someone is trying to make your kids gay and and in both cases you must enforce rigid gender stereotypes to "fix it" (the child's gender or sexuality)?
Do you like rigid traditional gender roles for everyone that are enforced using patriarchal structures?
@@Pensnmusic well said
You embraced tomboys, .. but not tomgirls? Interesting.
So this is why we need puberty blockers, so the kids are given a chance to sort thoughts out in their head.
(the snooze button for 2 years).
Thank you so much for this. I wish Sam would let you talk more during the show. I enjoy you both but I always watch your segments. You're good at keeping up with the current social narratives.
I’d really love to read more about the connection between 19th Century race science and sex binary - does anyone have any links?
Probably
It's bullshit. The sex binary in Homo sapiens has been known for far longer than science has existed, science simply studied it to understand more.
There isn’t one.
@@BigTallLankyDude idk how much of a binary it is when there are more people born outside of it than people who are in Canada
@@swews8157 It's pretty simple. There are two sexes which between them account for over 99.9% of humanity; the exceptions are called intersexed and are those that have experienced some form of developmental or genetic issue causing improper formation of anatomy.
Terf is a completely meaningless term. People are calling Adele a Turf because she said she was proud and happy to be a woman. If that's all it takes to be called a Terf then it's really not a big deal
Which people dude?
As a member of the trans community...nobody is mad at Adele, especially for taking joy in her own experience.
Congratulations, you fell for right-wing media attention trap. Just like Joe Rogan.
What a company to keep.
I saw a video that showed the tweets that started the "outrage" - there were two tweets with like 100 likes on them. Then the right-wing manufactured outrage machine kicked into gear.
What you mean is that a couple of randos on Twitter called Adele a TERF and therefore the whole idea of a TERF must be false. People have been called racist for all sorts of nonsense too, but that doesn't mean that actual racism doesn't exist.
A common definition of TERF is a feminist who excludes trans women from their fight for women's rights. Adele saying she likes being a woman is nothing to do with that, so of course she isn't a TERF (at least, she's not a TERF because she said what she said, I cannot read her mind). But if you meet the above definition, like JK Rowling for example, then you would be a TERF and are harmful in the fight for equality and minority rights. This is all.
"Grow up trans" ?? Bad takes all through out this interview from both of these individuals. I'm team terf on this one
What do you think about all the people who are born intersex and never transition? X.x
@@whysocurious7366 Those people are intersex and not trans. Did you think they were the same thing?
@@BigTallLankyDude well, usually terfs don’t even know that there’s more than just male/female, there’s also intersex. They also often conflate the treatment of people who display feminine/masculine behavior with the people who have certain genitalia.. which is an odd conflation imho, because of you make biological terms and sociological terms indistinguishable, all you’ve done is limited the thoughts you can think.. you’ve merely limited the concepts you can think by limiting your vocabulary..
@@whysocurious7366 I can only say that the ones I have spoken to seem to be aware of intersex conditions.
@@whysocurious7366 intersex people are not inherently transgender
I'm amazed that Foucault never comes up in these discussions.
I haven't read up on him. But it's a contemporary issue.
I'm guessing the reason it doesn't get brought up is the rhetoric no longer 'reaches' accessible discourse.
edit: I like it. But I see the constant evolution not as a 'sexual' thing, but progressivism/rebellion/challenge-of-norms on the whole.
Thanks, I'll read a little more into it.
@@rubbercable I was thinking about the idea of personality being an illusion.
@@jamesblahut5008 _"personality being an illusion"_
Whaaaaa? I missed that. Is he suggesting personality is biologically determined?
Maybe it's true, but to believe electrons are deterministic to a level where you can predict personality development is unworkable/useless/pointless.
@@rubbercable it's basically that we are the sum of the relative conditions of our birth. That's an oversimplification, of course, but it's been a while since I read his books, and I wouldn't want to be more concise without some time to closely review it.
@@jamesblahut5008 nature over nurture. I get it. But to conflate personality with sexuality or sexual identity, is a slippery slope to 'conversion therapy'.
Repression just leads to people unexpectedly/suddenly sobbing in their bath after their 40th birthday.
Somebody take away the mic.
The arguments fall apart when it comes to sports
Sports needs work: WEIGHT CLASS is the answer(like they do in boxing).
2020 Oympics already has mixed events: archery, shooting, judo
@@rubbercable Yeah lets separate by weight, THEN it'll be okay for men to punch women in the face.
@@eleusinia There are already mixed events in the Olympics.
@@rubbercable What a disingenuous take. The mixed events are still choreographed to pit women against other women you fool.
Why do you raging minsogynst(s) even make these bad arguments? As if women having the privilege at a fair shot against their own needs to be discussed.
@@eleusinia Weight classes go a long way into it.
JRK's popularity and relevance wanes.
I guess rubbish takes have an impact.
I would strongly recommend people to read Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier. Interesting and terrifying read that shows how far MDs and psychiatrists have gone into this trans hysteria. In fact to the point of, as the title says, irreversible damage to the (young) female body.
The book mentioned is based on fearmongering about rapid onset gender dysphoria (ROGD), which is a completely discredited and rejected hypothesis put forth by a single researcher in the late 2010s. It was specifically tested for and invalidated. So the book is based at its core on disproved drivel.
I have an ongoing transgender education series on my channel. I will deal specifically with ROGD and how it was dismantled by a team of scientists in a peer-reviewed systematic report, as well as the massive issues with the initial ROGD hypothesis report That's in part five of (upcoming).
@@willowthewendigo This person is very dangerous. If you are a parent and your daughter or son are following or viewing this guy, take action! Do not let these extremists destroy the lives of your children. This guy belongs to a woke gender theory sect. Regards from a true progressive Scandinavian.
_"Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier"_ has been disowned by the scientific community.
Of course there are still some supporters. Like Turner Diaries and MKampf has their supporteres suggeting it in comments sections.
yeah let's believe some journalists over scientists and medical experts when it comes to medical practice...
Irreversible Damage: The Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters is a 2020 book by Abigail Shrier, published by Regnery Publishing. The book endorses the contentious concept of rapid-onset gender dysphoria,[1][2][3] which is not recognized as a medical diagnosis by any major professional institution[4][5][6] and is not backed by credible scientific evidence.[7][8]
Thanks for reminding me why we lost to trump.
Trump won because of racism, opposing trans rights was a very small part of his campaigning.
Trump won because the Democrats chose a completely awful candidate. If Biden ran that year he would’ve beat Hillary in the primaries and he would’ve beat Trump. Fuck, John Kerry probably would’ve beaten Trump
People are rarely progressives; they have *IDEAS CONSIDERED PROGRESSIVE FOR THEIR TIME.*
That's why the bra-burners in the 60s; today, can't stop using the N-word like it was punctuation.
The world moves on - but people don't keep up.
You either die a progressive, or see yourself become the reactionary. I take it, this is your stop?
Trump won because the other choice was HRC, possibly the most disliked public figure in the history of the USA. And if Dems actually accomplished what they claim to be their goals, no Republican would ever win.
very very little of trump's campaign + the republican party's platform at the time had anything to do with trans rights. this is just your way of justifying your own bigotry. "we" are not allies.
I think this is great ! Trans issues are the hill to die on for the left.
If you think this is ‘the left’ as opposed to just milk toast elitist liberalism, you have worms in your brain.
I wish Emma had had a TERF or TERF supporter on to argue the point here. This felt more like propaganda than any kind of objective look at the topic. While I don't oppose the conclusions presented about TERF feminists here, I don't trust them either. I do not feel that I have really been informed. Not a good look for Emma.
I agree, my biggest issue is when they keep platforming anti-racists, but at no time do they put on white supremacists to get the other side of the story. I'm sure you agree with me and don't think the only reason they should be heard is because you want to hear somebody parrot your viewpoint. I believe TERFs should be given a voice even if I don't agree with them, just as you believe white supremacists should be on even though you may not agree with them. Hope I'm right on this one, otherwise it's not a good look for Pat.
There are plenty of leftist women who she could have researched and invited on that don’t believe in transgender ideology. If she had any interest in hearing another view she would have
done that.
We have plenty of TERFs in this comments section.
She's not a debate-bro. If you want to see TERFs, go to a Vaush video.. you'll see 'responsible platforming' there.
@@Machine3499 She's not a debate bro. If you want to see bloodsports, go to a Vaush/Destiny debate.
We watch nazis and TERFs torn up every week.
@@rubbercableI was making fun of her point.