The Truth About Incels | Ash Sarkar meets William Costello
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- čas přidán 1. 06. 2024
- The involuntary celibate community (aka ‘incels’) are often thought to be rightwing, white supremacist, and prone to violence. But how much of that is true?
Ash Sarkar is joined by William Costello - a researcher whose work focuses on the psychology of incels - to discuss what we get wrong about incels, what incels get wrong about women, and the catastrophe that is modern dating culture.
00:00 Intro
03:02 Kendrick versus Drake
08:13 Why Study Incels?
10:43 What are Incels?
16:56 Are Incels Violent?
27:02 What do Heterosexual Women Want?
33:01 'The Apps' and Dating Culture
46:58 What is the Model for Relationships?
55:46 Evolution and Sexual Violence
1:13:04 Are There Gay Incels?
1:20:20 Misogyny in Relationships
1:24:19 Changes in Reproductive Politics
1:33:09 What Makes a Man More Attractive?
1:39:08 Advice for Incels
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"Unwanted celibacy predicts misogynistic attitudes" is paraphrased by Jim Morrison as "women seem wicked when you're unwanted" in People Are Strange.
Good observation 👍
But thats a problem in and of itself. Women shouldnt have to feel coerced into entering relationships just to avoid misogynistic vioIence. Besides we dont see this same level of toxic ideology towards the opposite gender amongst femceIs
that doesnt account for the different ways that men and women behave. women often flirt for fun/(their ego). and then tell men they have no interest. at least men are more forthright. this whole video seemed like very ridiculous pseudo science
@@ftftyffghfvghfcht6701ah men flirt too. Flirting and saying no is a very good way to test if a man is going to throw a tantrum when he doesn't get his way. Which is an important thing to eliminate before you mate with a male. Tells you a lot about whether you want to choose a man as a mate by how he responds to something like that. Also when men consider being spoken to as flirting it can go to the point where you can't even talk to a guy because he thinks that entitles him to more. Men are not very forthright at all although they think they are they don't respond well to female forthrightness at all. Men tend to make assumptions and adapt their words and behaviour according to a supposition such as she will want X so i will do x she will expect y. She will likely be x way so they're often appraising things internally rather than asking a forthright question such as are you flirting with me?
@@Padraigp no youve misunderstood me. i knew you'd write 'men do too'. everyone flirts. im not talking about in appropriate circumstances. im talking about in everyday life. women do it for a kick. men dont do it if anything bcos most of them cant. bcos theres no male equivalent of makeup. youve also ignored the fact that men dont wear lingerie and walk around semi naked. i appreciate that its not politically correct to acknowledge that but it obviously has an impact on perception with male female pair bonding.
This video proves you shouldn't be allowed to leave a comment unless you've watched at least half the video.
Really wish I hadn't started reading this comment section. Some of it's so deranged...
Times to valuable
TL;DW
Weird. Ofc I don't know what it was like at first, but rn all comments I can see are really nice
Great guest and interview. I particularly appreciated the combination of a scientific and humane perspective on incels from William.
Very true comment and very happy to be the 69th like
Can we please just not overlook the economic and cultural conditions of today. (From the UK perspective), Many pubs, clubs, centres for meeting people, connecting, being outside your comfort zones have been closed down, whether you're in the camp of this is deliberate or whether the young are just genuinely wanting more healthier lifestyles, we've pushed all of the "real world" stuff online, and online is the most toxic place you can be now. (I get the hypocrisy of me saying this while online, but I stand by it). Ash is 100% right to call out banning dating ups. The entire societal model which is a for profit system which incentivises people/companies to extract as much profit from the world as humanly possible, in part thanks to tech has now allowed us to start harvesting up human emotion, connection and so on which is just a sick model that is destined to failure (I hope).
Right? I'm in a relationship (met on Hinge), but there is no way on earth I would ever go up to a woman in real life. Not because I fear rejection (I have been rejected and dumped so many times I now consider myself an expert on the experience), but because I hear so many women sharing their disgust and fear at being approached by men. The idea of hurting a woman, or making her feel uncomfortable is horrifying to me. And to have an entire room of people witness me making a woman feel uncomfortable because I tried to strike up a conversation with her would be mortifying.
@@Fredreegz I'm not referring to going in cold as it were, what I mean is, because bars and clubs and most forms of social life are rapidly disappearing and going online you're radically reducing the chances of even being out with friends and just getting chatting with other groups and intermingling. I was alone after a previous relationship for about 5 years, I genuinely started to believe it wouldn't ever happen for me again. But one day while at a music festival with some friends, a friend of one of my friends came along and we just hit it off and we've been so happy together since. I tried the Apps, and like Ash said, I find them insincere, fake and immoral tbh I'm not saying it can't/won't work for others. More power to you if you did make it work. I just don't see this as a viable long term thing without totally destroying maybe some of the only "truth" parts of the human experience... (Love) in it's purest expression.
Excellent point! It seems to me that the online trends are monetizing EvERYTHING now, including death! The old adage "Profit Over People' has seemingly been supersized to "Profit Over Planet AND People!" 😶
Totally agree, also, talking about relationships as a transaction is also a massive turn off for me personally. Yeah I suppose you can view it in that way if you are being clinical but I wouldn’t touch someone with a ten foot barge pole if they talked about relationships in those terms.
yeah, this is being described as 'the death or 3rd spaces' outside of home and work.
Further proof that Michael Fassbender is both multitalented and ageing incredibly well
Damnit you beat me to it!
😂😂😂😂😂 Brilliant!!
LOL he sounds exactly like him doesn't he
😂😂😂
He is also from West Ireland!
The failure of society is that we expect people to act nice, behaved and polite, but we also emphasize a "each one on its own" mentality. When we don't show solidarity and empathy, those young men won't learn to be empathetic. We want people not to go sacking neighboring villages looking for mate, but how do we want that to be if don't build a way away from that? Ultra-individualism begets nihilism. If a man wants women to care about him, he should start caring about women, they are people and they deserve it too, not just him and his in-group.
Individualism is a disease
The issue is that for a growing number of women, it's all about caring only for themselves, and never reciprocating. We have a narcissistic epidemic right now (in men as well, but I honestly believe it should be more prevalent in women in its overt form due to how this capitalist society works nowadays).
All the relationships I've been in, it was impossible to have decent reciprocity from my partner. It was always about their own self-interests, even at my expense, to different levels.
@strawerry_jam Studies don't support this being common tho. Women give far more in relationships than men and that's a statistical fact. That's why they divorce more, they get tired of doing it all. That's where the phrase single married woman comes from.
Also, it makes sense because it's shown men are more narcissistic, greedy, manipulative, arrogant, and apologize less AND are less communicative while being more emotionally unavailable. That's not a good combination for a functioning relationship. Men have to actually be likeable now that they don't just get a woman handed to them now. Men were always like this, but it's only now that it's becoming a problem because it's preventing them from relationships.
Exactly.. It is just so frustrating because people are individualizing their empathy and calling it 'Self-Care' then getting butt hurt when people that aren't in their group are suffering..
Missed a huge factor in the fertility rate conversation. Can you ignore the economic and environmental hellscape we live in?
That would be a cause for both men and women being celibate. That is not what the "incel" phenomena describes. It describes a male only problem.
Exactly. Socialist countries like the GDR always had higher birthrates than western European capitalist countries, and they had far better women’s rights than we had or probably ever will have.
Even capitalist countries like Sweden, that have better women's rights and social policies have higher birthrates.
To claim that women's rights lead to lower birth rate is absolutely slanderous, and hurts the cause of women.
Exactly. Socialist countries like the GDR always had higher birthrates than western European capitalist countries, and they had far better women’s rights than we had or probably ever will have.
Even capitalist countries like Sweden, that have better women's rights and social policies have higher birthrates.
To claim that women's rights lead to lower birth rate is absolutely slanderous, and hurts the cause of women.
@@sinthoras1917 Even Sweden's fertility rate still isn't high enough to replace their population.
But you're right, women's rights don't directly lead to lower fertility rates.
There are populations within countries with gender equality that do have high fertility rates.
The Amish are a great example of this.
Even though the US has gender equality laws, Amish fertility rates are still high.
This is probably because they raise their children with traditions that lead to high fertility rates.
Women in the most popular Amish communities are free to leave & join the rest of US society.
Despite being free to choose, around 80% decide to stay & practise their Amish traditions that lead to high fertility rates.
Lol socialist countries are more conservative than progressive ones. Did you see what Romania's president did? I suggest you look up China and North Korea's ethnicity policies
I am fairly certain that 'kindness' never led to a right swipe. Online dating is the new dating, and love it or loathe it, being physically attractive is the first barrier. Y'all can be as kind as fuck only after crossing that bar.
Precisely!!
Exactly. It's what inside that counts after you get past the looks.
Then don't date online.
The problem as they mentioned though is that these apps aren't sustainable at all. It's sad because of how dating apps fuck over everyone where women face misogyny, trans people face transphobia, and men of colour face racism. It's sad because I know I am attractive but these app turn dating into a one dimensional game.
MySpace is the only social media platform around. Napster is the only place to get music. Netscape navigator is the only web browser. Ask Jeeves is the only search engine. You see the problem with your argument?
Ridiculously interesting interview!
Absolutely no idea of even the term ‘ incels’ - a ‘must watch’ for any parent with a boy navigating and growing up coping with, to me what looks like a very alienating and competitive social environment in teen years. Particularly schools - compounded by relentless expectations and hierarchies from the overly competitive GCSE/A level years.
Massive pressure on young people as they grapple with all of this!
This guy’s entire research area is entirely pseudo science.
If you're parent to a son in 2024, you better pray you passed good genetics on to him, otherwise get the grieving process started early.
@@JohnODonovan1987 as opposed to commenting on the internet without offering a shred of discernible _evidence_
Thank you for the video/interview. 40+ year old man. Never had an actual relationship (short/long term). Never kissed. Never had any physical sexual experience. At most, have held hands (more than 10 years ago). Work full time in fairly comfortable job (non managerial) and look ok (but skinny). Regular exercises for health reason. From what I can tell, probably biggest turn off for most women is that I live at home with the folks and no friends, other than work colleagues.
Have tried dating apps, but like Ash - feels too cold and "commodifying" (if that's a way to describe it). Plus my heavy anxiety just gets in the way. Although, I'm not totally against it (apps) - just not for me for now. It did work for me a long time ago, in terms of meeting someone and going out.
It would be nice to be in a long term relationship, but at the same time I sometimes just want to, you know - have some fun (if you know what I mean). Unfortunately, I can't do that. I don't have friends to meet others and I cannot just go to a club or bar.
It does terrify me when my folks are no longer around.
What causes you anxiety?
It seems you’ve put some thought into it and are aware of some of the things contributing to it. Have you been to therapy or considered it?
@@wackypeace1135 I'm not really sure. Could be from my upbringing. Could be from other incidents/experiences that I didn't know how to deal with during my younger years. Some people just don't have that part of themselves developed properly, so the cycle of fear builds into something else. It's something I've lived with for a long time that I never really thought about where it came from originally.
I remember trying to casually run a small meet up group for people with society anxiety. Ironically, at some point it was affecting me and I couldn't deal with it.
@@mbele3 Yes, it's been on my mind for a while. I have done some therapy/counselling a while back and would like to try again, but it's quite expensive where we are. I have to also consider some serious life changes or else it would be quite wasteful in these sessions. It feels like I'm stuck - unable to move forward, but also not wanting the current situation. I do know that fear is there playing its part in keeping me suspended in a sense.
What the hell. Try pure MDMA. Start small.
And like he said, there should be a normalisation of what you are living, because it's very common. Especially in Korea apparently.
All the best.
The problem with villainizing an entire group of people is that a big chunk of them will internalize it and become the bad guys. Compassion and civility go a long way.
That’s their choice not the fault of others.
It doesn't matter at ALL, that's just how humans are. @@EH_888
Incorrect @@EH_888
@@EH_888 incels, involuntary celibate, involuntary, "their choice", sure, involuntary is a synonym for their choice, am I right ?
Done him dirty on the “He’s the expert on incels”
How is your comment 2 days old when the video was uploaded 2 hours ago?
Why? He is an expert on incels
@@aamnahere6250 It’s the Matrix 😂
@@aamnahere6250 Video released early to members, then public a few days after.
"your PhD topic is populist." thats already a bit of a burn lol
It is a complete misnomer to equate incels to far right and white in ethnicity, this runs the gamut of all socio economic and racial lines.
Yes from what I can gather you're most likely to be incel if you are black or asian in the west.
Statistics say 50% white, 50% ethnice, which is crazy for western countries. People that say we are all racists and looksit are probably the same ones that filter for 6ft on dating apps.
At the same time, the Far Left and the centre isn't actively recruiting incels, and incel spaces don't preach any ideology like they do Far Right ones.
@@DeliciouslyMildYou’re like to be an incel if you’re under 6ft. White men are 5’9.
Not really. The manosphere tends to overlap a fair bit.
I think there's a sort of Fernando Torres effect. Football is a confidence game, Brian. Failure to score leads to a lack of confidence in your ability to score. Which leads to you failing to score. Which leads to a lack of confidence. Before you know it you're in a vicious regress. If this becomes very severe this can end up in a prolonged goal drought, despite all the great work you're doing round the box. With most men this eventually ends. A drunk girl exercises poor judgement at a wedding. A depressed woman in a hotel bar inexplicably thinks that you look like the lead singer of Soul Asylum. You move to New York, where making the first move is not an issue. But for some of us it goes on for four seasons before you're sold to Chelsea and even then - where once there was a gilded youth now there is a broken haunted man.
Some people can appreciate that journey, having been down that road themselves. And some are draw to broken and haunted things. Not to fix, but with an explorers soul, with curiosity. Like calls to like.
I like your extended metaphors random commenter
You don't play sports if you think any sport at all is a "confidence game".
More insane than incel ideology
@@lisa-marieiorfinothere are no women with like experiences. For men like this all they have is male friends in the same boat and no physical intimacy at any point in your life
It’s a result of how human interactions have moved away from “real life” and into virtual/online spaces. People have fewer friends than in previous decades and they hang out with those friends much less than in previous decades. Most young people regardless of gender or orientation have little to no hobbies. Most young people spend their days at work and their free time on the internet - CZcams, Instagram, Netflix, gaming etc
Social media along with these dating apps should be banned. Smartphones have ruined the society after 2012
I met my husband online, but playing a text only game, we fell in love based on communication not photos. We've been married almost 20 years now
@@paigemprice you could be married to a bot
@@tuckerbugeater I suspect they've met in real life meanwhile.
My fear is that Ash, and people of her ilk (both male and female) aren't really actually concerned about male problems.
Yeah, she came off incredibly condescending in this interview. That sort of holier-than-thou attitude doesn’t last long in marriage nor business.
Ya think?
My fear is that too many mentally unstable guys out there take their feigned benevolence too seriously. Of course they don't mean it, it's just the latest fad (‘Oh, are the boys okay?’).
@@yurigansmith Sure. But there are a lot of guys out there looking for answers
"mens nental health" can seem like a cliche but but It is because it is such a screaming health crisis. Great conversation
You could categorize it as a health crisis, I guess. Not sure what good that does, maybe gets more press attention. But it seems to me to be a "not liking life" crisis or "being lonely" crisis, and I think it would be a mistake to pathologize every major problem someone has in life as some sort of delusion or mental illness.
Ok, cards on the table, I love Ash. But this was a baaaaad interview. Ash's POV seem to be nothing more than anecdotal, throughout the whole interview. She kinda self acknowledged this when she talked about her fake reddit account, you could almost see Costello's eyes rolling. I think he probably anticipated and hoped for a more scrutable engagement with his text, rather than 'my friends tell me they want ....'.
Yes! She would make a statement not a question, he would tell her the research says that not the case, then she goes 'yea but...' I think she might want to re-watch this interview with a critical eye so that she can learn from this and become a better interviewer.
Precisely, you can't reject something exists just because you find it repellent and/or haven't personally experienced it.
A depressingly common mindset, even within Novare apparently.
You don’t think you might be reading too much into his facial expression in light of your own expectations from this interview? To me he seemed bemused. Must be refreshing to talk about one’s research outside an academic context.
Personally I found the interview very interesting. Ash brought her own perspectives, which he sometimes corrected and she did not protest those corrections. As someone that entered the interview with many of the same assumptions as her, I left it with a better understanding of the facts. That’s a success in my book.
I just found it an interesting dialogue
@@TheShortStory No, I don't think that. There are plenty of places to exchanges dating anecdotes from your own personal social circle. Novara's USP isn't that though.
I mean, that is the whole point of bringing him on. She's not at the table by herself with the camera only on her telling you this the way it is.
I think its always simplistic for married people to dismissively say, be more social, etc. it just doesn’t always work, It IS very hard to meet people, it is very hard to online date. I don’t have an answer, but Ash is defo in the Smug Married Camp
Yeah, they think people with social anxiety can just go out and make tons of friends lol.
my dream is being in the smug married camp and giving out awful advice like "just be yourself" "she'll come into your life at the right time" "stop trying so hard and she'll just appear" "its inside what counts looks dont matter" "girls dont care about money as long as you have a stable job" ahahahah
@@Blastoplastify I love this, made me laugh 😂 so true
Ash assumes that what her small group of friends wants applies to millions of other women. As for the comment that no one drives in London, look at Tottenham High Road or Green Lanes and the number of high end vehicles.
Women's camaraderie can also be their detriment
Have we forgotten the subconscious? People can say they want one thing and subconsciously want something else.
there's no such thing as subconscious, just people with a tremendous capacity for self-deception. people make a habit of lying to themselves and it becomes impossible to see truth.
Inceldom is not about loneliness or relationships, it`s not even about sex, it`s about status.
I have been in incel spaces and read what they are actually saying. It becomes very clear what they actually want is to sleep with a lot of women or marry the hottest one in town to gain status in the eyes of other men. That`s why they worship "alpha males", it`s what they want to be and can`t be.
If their problem would be loneliness that could be fixed by having friends, even only male friends, but that is not what they want, they want the status of "getting women".
If their problem would be sex that could be fixed by going to sex workers, but if somebody brings that up they scoff at it because it doesn`t bring them status.
The reason why they hate women so much is because in their eyes the whole point of the existence of women is to give them status and women are refusig to do that and since the ecomomy is so bad it`s difficult to gain status through your job.
Not quite forgotten. I was subconsciously aware of it, at the very least.
@@Lee-bv6iv funny
I am not sure that is entirely true. One seems to be very tightly tied to the other. People in general have more than one desire. They may even have conflicting desires. Sorry to bring this into it, but your eyes say yea but you mouth say no, is just plain wrong. Even if you seem to see a shade of desire in someones eyes, it is up to them if they want to react on their desires.
You guys are the best. I will share your content to people likeminded
This is an excellent interview. A good mix of research and personal observations. The whole modern dating experience; online, dating apps etc is not a good way to find partners. I'm glad I'm old enough to have missed it, but I despair for young people, both for men and women.
A great interview. Thank you! I'm loving Novara
interview: dating apps, commodification, rejection, mating market, cross-sex mumbo jumbo
me: being alone is not so bad after all
'Incel' is basically a misandric gendered slur, unless the man/boy describes themselves as an incel. People talk about micro aggressions and gendered language and then in the next breath use the term a 'incel'.
The most shocking thing about this whole discussion is that people like Ash had no compassion for these types of men in the first place
Great interview! Really challenged some of my assumptions, honestly. I sound like a bot, but it's true.
I believe you are a person 🥹
Why don't you interview incels rather than an 'expert' on incels? You're creating an unnecessary opportunity for someone else's predispositions and world view to impact your audience's understanding of the topic. At the very least interview both
Thank you for discussing violence, particularly sexual violence, which, for many women, is a serious deterrent to involvement.
What are you talking about I never said anything about violence!
Really enjoyed this conversation
This was so interesting, thank you.
Thank you for the truth
I Support you❤
I think he has an interesting point about the apps.
It’s worth realising that the medium of apps itself isn’t uniquely more alienating than any other medium like social media or film. The specific reason why it’s bad is because it is a medium, just like social media, that exists specifically to profit off your alienation, rather than aid you or engage with the Masses in a solidaristic manner.
A richly informative interview. Many thanks!
Thank you guys for being an alternative source of real information.
I’m just starting to watch your video, but already, by your introduction, I hear and assumption that ordinary social and romantic life is assumed “healthy”, when in my own experience with online apps and websites and meeting other people, I realize that I’m not the only “dysfunctional” person. So your introduction sounds like it compares the dysfunction of incel psychology to healthy social relationships when in the lived world, the people you meet aren’t necessarily “healthy” themselves either. Let’s be honest, sex, relationships and intimacy are influenced by the new cultural norms we’ve come to accept with dating apps and popular culture which is heavily influenced by advertising and porn.
Not really, now your just generalizing without actual facts.
The so-called "self-paired" individual, along with a healthy mindset and ability to be alone and stay mentally healthy, that is a beautiful thing.
@@GuidetteExpertno it’s a valid observation
@@GuidetteExpert He's correct. Some of the pics girls put on dating apps look they've come straight from a camgirl.
Very interesting to receive so much attention. The expert seems to have actually researched this scene. It is all the more astonishing that neither public discourse nor research has noticed that the key property is misunderstood. Involuntary celibacy is a second or higher order effect. It is about hopelessness. Younger people without hope naturally focus on the deprivation of sexual experience while self-resonance effects occur incessantly in the networks. Misogyny, racism, identity-generating cult formation, addictive behavior, group phantasms and the "rope thing" are apparently symptoms of the human organism in the absence of hope. To date, there has probably been little opportunity to study hopelessness in large numbers of individuals across age and gender groups that are not organized along ethnic lines and are all interconnected. I can report unequivocally from my own research: Sexual intercourse does not help at all with hopelessness.
Genuinely interesting conversation.
something that also gets maligned is the fact that all social interaction, but especially dating, is not an innate skill everyone is born with, it’s a learned skill like anything else. it took me doing the uncomfortable thing and forcing myself to go out and talk to people to get good at it. but i also didn’t inhabit a community that actively denigrates any attempt at growth, so it’s easy for me to say “you just need to practice!”
A very small study was conducted in the US where 63.6% of self-described InCels were White & Hispanic (compared to 78.2% of the US population) and 44.7% were left-wing (compared to 38.9% right-wing) so the idea that this is a Fascistic subculture seems like wishful thinking.
I'd be very curious to know how they determined the participants' place on the political spectrum. Many people are not very good at correctly identifying this. As an example, people will deny someone like Jordan Peterson is right wing (a figure popular among incels) when he clearly is very far right.
@@kerrymackenzie911 he is not far right don't be ridiculous.
This is only going to get worse.
Yes it is. Progressive ideology drives men and women apart. Also, the internet has made people more mentally unwell. These two things happening simultaneously have been brutal.
Yup. I can't wait 🤣🤣🤣
@@LeSaxon90 Why?
@@LuisCarruthersMore so that progressive ideology gave women rights that they didn't have, now they don't need to leach onto men to have a house, money, status, etc. When women can live a fulfilling life by themselves they will stay away from anyone that might distrupt their peace, men are now picked when they add more to a women's life than she can have by herself. That's fair enough really, the problem is that men will now have a harder time getting a woman. But that's not the women's fault.
@@StoddardianBecause it will be fun.
Great interview and really interesting
As an utterly average looking guy in his 40s, this discussion depresses me deeply. Do young guys no longer just get loaded, go to house parties, talk to girls, try to be funny, and get their numbers? You would get rejected a bunch sure but it wasn't rocket science and it was lots of fun mostly, no one cared about your 'dating market value' or any of that crap.
depends entirely on bodyfat percentage and if you have dark circles and poor skin from computer overconsumption and bad diet
I am a lifelong below average looking man in his late 30s currently at University to finish a degree and I can honestly say the attractive men I talk to amongst the student body are doing fine and average and below men are far more more isolated and unlikely to attempt approaches. I was a regular (though not prolific) dater of nerd girls in the early 2000s at the same institution and my romantic history was positively exuberant in comparison to 2/3 of them.
Something is very wrong.
This is how human will unknowingly become ccp robots living in some dystopian social credit system
@@dyscostic What do you mean the below average men are far more isolated? Do other men avoid being friends with them?
@@aloah030 What are you talking about? He just wrote that he is very average looking and he got the numbers. You are so hellbent on not being in any way responsible for your bad luck that you ignore what is said in the comment. Do you know his life better than him?
Mr Costello not only gets men but understands that there are differences between what men and woman say they want and actually want. Also appreciate how he is able to present information, listen carefully, and stay on track during this discussion.
Fascinating discussion and bonus points for cramming the word Eudaimonia in.
eudaimonia is a poison and counter to consumer culture... challenging it will only leave you more alone and more in pain as the west has no way ot progressing in it.
Fascinating discussion. I really learned a lot. Thanks.
Fascinating interview.
Excellent interview
Important information
👏👏👏👏
I am Autistic I have never had a girlfriend but I like women and have female friends so just because I lack the looks,social skills and finances to attract the opposite sex does not make me a monster!
Noone is saying you are
You are right that it doesn't make you a monster.
I'm really sorry folks have made you feel that way.
(Idk if you follow healthy gamer, but I have seen them as a good role model, even though I don't game myself, haha)
No it doesn't. You also don't need finances, aside from being able to support yourself. I'm autistic and lack social skills too.
I'd suggest just start with flirty chats on casual dating apps. Not suggesting anything will come from it, but it'll be fun and you'll gain confidence in flirting that way.
If your female friends are good friends, then they might be able to give you tips on how to improve your image and help decipher any bad interactions.
@@Feellikealady99women are recording themselves openly admitting that a man who's never had a girl friend or have kids or even have sex, that's a red flag.
Of course it's just the Internet, but girls are starting to repeat and think thus in real life.
nobody thinks youare a monster
Lovely talk!
Great video 👏🙏
To quote Jonathan Richman "true love is not nice".
I briefly identified as an incel for one weird period of my life and I didn't hate women at that time. I just hated their dating preferences. I have too many sisters and female friends to actually hate women. I never thought that hating women was a requirement to be an "incel". It's just a situation. You still don't wanna be one though because it's slapping a label on yourself based on a current situation, which can change at any moment. I stopped being one after having a rare spiritual experience once which made me consider, what if there's a 1% chance that the Law of Attraction is real? (not claiming that it is, just claiming that it's better to be on the safe side if you're on the edge). I started changing my attitude. I started receiving compliments more and more. Admittedly, I was already attractive (and knew it) when I was an incel. I just thought something else was wrong with me. If you ever see an incel in real life, give them a compliment. Find something attractive about them, even if it's not their looks. That's what they need. They need hope. We're not giving them that.
They need to cultivate an intrinsic sense of self-esteem; they DON'T need to get on the hamster wheel of chasing external validation. Just about the worst thing one can do to themselves is to rely on the fickle whims of other people for a sense of identity, confidence, or self-esteem. When one does that, one is basically putting all of their power into other people's hands. It is foolish and unsustainable. They need to care LESS about what other people think, and to fully accept themselves as they are now, without judgement.
@@chancletadeldiablo894 yes that's important, but it takes a lot to get there. I first had to understand that I was "okay". My internal barometer for what makes a person unlikeable, obnoxious, appropriate, or just acceptable given any situation was skewed and exaggerated. You need real world experience to calibrate it to a healthy space.
I can relate to this post but I've been single for the vast majority of my life. I don't think I'm ugly but women simply haven't ever been receptive to me.
@@AroundTheBest You probably come off as unconfident.
@@Stoddardian According to "Europe's Journal of Psychology" Confidence follows from physical attractiveness, rather than precedes it.
great guest, super insightful
This was one of the most entertaining talks so far. More research needs to be done on this topic.
freedom from suffering to all :) everyone deserves a loving relationship
This was really good.
Excellent interview. This man restores some of my faith in psychology.
This is so fascinating! This makes me look at this in a completely new way, are there any good counter theories to this, or have they more or less mapped what is going on?
And more or less just learned that I have several incel friends, but I never knew, because they aren’t “toxic” to that degree and leftist.
PS he says body count dose count, do the rest of you agree? I always believed that it was sort of just a thing In movies.
it feels that for many to be just wanted is not enough, people are depressed because they have no future and actual relationships, from the lack of trust and intimacy.
it's important to know that gender does not define your morals
This hits hard, to be honest. I never write about this online, as it's embarrassing, but as a 5'4" neurodivergent 39-year-old slightly overweight (but working on it) guy, I find it so difficult to get with women/find a relationship. Even though I have plenty of friends, including women, this is such a fuckin' lonely place to be in. For me, it's the companionship and love that I miss over the sex (which I'm not all that bothered about). And while I'm technically 'involuntarily celibate', I abhor the stereotypical incel types that come to mind when you think of the term and want absolutely nothing to do with them.
I'm a feminist and pretty much a socialist (teetering between the most left version of social democracy and socialism), doing a job I absolutely love; I've got a great social life (I'm not lonely in that respect); I'm told that I am warm, friendly, approachable, intelligent, etc. But, damn, this is so difficult, and I really don't know where to turn to, as this loneliness hurts *a lot*.
Get in shape, sort diet out and work on interpersonal dynamics, take up some new activities that puts you in touch with new interesting women. Dress better. Drop the weak feminist politics and white knighting and any other pathetic beta behaviour. Good luck.
Have you thought about taking up tennis? It’s fairly easy to learn and there are loads of adult classes out there. With a bit of practice you can get up to a decent “social” level quite quickly - it’s lots of fun, gets you out the house and into groups of people with similar interests to you.
At this point mail order bride might be best bet.
How many women have you dated in the last year? How many women have you asked out on dates in the last year? If the answer is in single figures you need to be asking out more women.
Ballroom dancing. Its fun to do, its a guaranteed party and there are SOOOO many more women doing it than guys.
You'll soon get a lot of practice and become good at a new skill. Plus to have lots of girls admiring how good a dancer you are is never a bad thing.
So deeply interesting.
Fascinating. I can relate to this on some level. I’m a 38 yr old male and have been single most of my life apart from a couple of short lived girlfriends (about 6 months) and the odd ‘fling’ here and there. I have been referred to as good looking many times in my life, a nice guy and have a solid group of old friends.
However, due to my age my friends pretty much all have children and socialize much much less than we used to, so it’s quite lonely. Sometimes I resent this because the meeting friends through friends possibility just isn’t provided for. Now, because of this I have been on the dating apps (mostly unsuccessfully), and I do tend to experience that they are a net negative. So agree with Ash there. So what to do to get myself out there is a question I have fought with a lot. It’s not as easy as it seems and I can’t tell whether this is a) age b) cultural changes, c) locale living in a small market town or d) social awkwardness on my side, trying to figure out how to make new friends and fear of rejection. I could talk so much about this!
Parents have a bias against nonparents
Honestly Ash just comes across like she objects to this guys opinion because it feels icky to her to label her own preferences as tangible identifiable things because she doesn’t want to be seen as shallow.
(Even shallow to herself)
Everyone is shallow, though. Men want pretty women. And women want....hmmm??? Well, there's the rub my friend. They are vastly more complicated than men. And you can tell Ash is high maintenance, too. Lol.
Self-deception is said to be an evolved trait. But that may or may not be relevant.
Very informative. 60yr old and still learning, why not? I've that choice, and see many don't.
The sausage roll and condom chat had me chuckling!
older than that and always learning, accepting new information, discarding outdated beliefs, trying to purify the mind and soul.
good for you, Eric!
Thank you both v. much.
The problem is that in the internet age we more lonely than ever. People cannot socialise any more because there is no 'third place' any more, in addition to home and work. In fact, with more people working from home than ever, people now only have 'one place' in their lives, the home. Not surprising that anxiety and depression are increasing.
When I was young I couldn't get a girlfriend, I now realise I lacked social skills and self confidence, circumstances in my childhood contributed to the problem, although I was never misogynistic. When I was in my late twenty's I assumed I wouldn't find a partner, back then there was no social media, no term of "incels", if there was I sometimes wonder about the path I may have ended going down.
I eventually found someone which I'm happy with, although later in life.
How did you improve your social skills
@@RossKempOnYourMum01 my life improved as I got older and more life experiences and my confidence improved.
@@asfcboys6317 so complete passivity anf waiting for it to get better
One important yet significant fact that no one mentions is the whole notion of Incel existence is purely a western phenomenon and as a product of the sociocultural changes in the last few decades. It is a product of the overall importance we attach to superficially materialistic concepts like wealth, looks, status, popularity, and vicarious living. Of course Holywood is the biggest culprit in advancing this shot. Also speaking of healthy relationships and till death us part..55% of marriages end up in divorce. how healthy ?
Its probably quite healthy to get a divorce. We live as adults for 60 years. Thats a long time. People didn't live that long when marriage was invented. A child can be grown by the time you are 40 and been married 20 years the job of marriage is basically done at that point for its purpose of parenting children in a monogamous way that could identify the childs responsible father. People used to have single careers and never leave their job their whole life either. Now you might have two totally complete and divergent careers in one lifetime. So I would say its pretty healthy if people recognise that the utility of marriage only extends so far. Just as people recognise staying in the same career for 50 years may not be the healthiest choice in life.
Totally untrue. Nearly half the worlds incels live in China
i agree with this as someone from a poor African country now living in a big city this is an issue in mostly the metropolis
There's Hikikomori in Japan, and in nations where men can take multiple wives there's a big issue with male loneliness. It's a big problem in many nations that have developed past a certain point, they might not have exactly the same incel culture, but there's going to be atomisation of society and increased isolation.
I wonder if these guys go after the 4's and 5's and the odd girls? Or do they only go after the 8's and 9's?
I am pretty sure I am autistic-wasn't a thing when I was a young girl. I never fit the mold of typical, never did what was popular. I've been recently going to places with autistic people. We are a bit strange-colorful, but quite,not crazy. I always thought I shouldn't be with odd folks because I was/am odd-but now I think they may be 'my people.'
Maybe the nonviolent incels should date the strange girls.
Vikings were incels, I wonder how historians into that period would respond to that claim. A claim without it seems no research behind it. And Chagnon, I would be careful using his data. He manipulated the Yanomami into violence, it went up in the region he was in, he gave gifts to one group to make another group angry etc. This is a pretty common criticism of his work.
In high school i talked one of my fellow students a girl in the last year, she looked at me with surprise as she didn't recognise me. I was informed during a pleasant conversation, she sat next me for 5 years, but calmly informed me she hadn't ever seen me, i was intrigued but not that bothered. This is apparently is very common it's just the way it is. Being a man one must to a great extend toughen up it's not personal, I did this toughening up in male only spaces of scouts and other groups which no longer exist as they once did as places for masculinity to develop, feeling emotions isn't necessarily good much of the time. I cry watching a ballet this is fine, feeling emotions over rejection or needing validation though isn't helpful and i believe is destructive to men, wives don't stay married to husbands if they complain. Perhaps the end of male only spaces which have existed up to this point is making it worse for men to develop social skills and control, perhaps or perhaps not we will find out.
A woman values other things as well but most of it is after they find the man secure enough. So, security first most of the time.
Sooo romantic 🥰
TREAT THE CAUSE!!! MENTAL HEALTH !!!
Great interview. Is Costello bringing out a book? He seems very well informed
This helped me understand the bear vs man argument from the eyes of men. Thank you. You’ve given me more to think of.
While im compasionate to womens broader problems with violence in dating, I really don't understand Ash's logic on women not being agentic because of the fear of sexual violence. If the logic is basically "I won't pursue any man because he might be violent" surely the same would hold that "Any man pursuing me might be violent" - so why would the expectation be on the man to be agentic when he is told not only will you be perceived as potentially a rapist by the woman, but the act of you even approaching her could be perceived as predatory or threatening? Surely in that scenario, men being the agentic ones leads to a selection bias where men more willing to ignore the comfort of women are more likely to engage with them than men more respectful of their boundaries?
It almost feels like an excuse to keep the status quo, as its unquestionably easier to be the one being pursued, but based on current societal beliefs, Codtello is absolutely right that its more important than ever for women to be agentic if they are actively seeking a partner. Men are now rigourously instructed that anything other than the most enthusiastic consent makes you a rapist, and that carries throughout the dating process, and unless a woman clearly indicates that she wants you to engage, approaching is perceived as a violation.
I genuinely think the idea that you might be called a predator/creep for approaching a woman is now a much greater fear for most men than simply being rejected.
This is even more true in the comparison Ash tries to make, because a woman initiating the interaction puts herself in no immediate danger - she has the entire rest of the interaction to judge the mans character and whether she wants to continue it - meanwhile for men the danger is the immediate risk of being perceived as a creep for engaging. I'm genuinely trying my best to be compassionate and see this from a womans perspective, but I just cant find any logic in it, I'd love if someone could tell me what I'm missing here
It actually feels threatening to be approached by a man. That's why circumstances are important. That's why it's safer to date someone from your circles, who's known by people you already know. Today's world is pushing women towards risky behaviours, and normalising them, but they remain risky.
Being considered creepy is not a risk to anything but a hurt ego. If it doesn’t result in one reconsidering their own behavior, there’s probably bigger issues
As a person of Colour and gay male.. I often find myself sexually rejected because there appears to be “white preference” that exists in queer culture when it comes to sexual selection. There have been studies on this!
this is true and it’s connected to anti black racism and the effects of manufactured view of black peoples hyper sexuality, I’ve had gay black men tell me things are easier if they aren’t dating another black man it’s heartbreaking
I find it disgusting when I see dating profiles with things like "No blacks, no asians." In them. It's just gross and awful and I wish men wouldn't do that.
@@plankton50 wow had no idea that was allowed wouldn’t it be flagged on the app for racism
@@m_ru1993 Tbh I haven't seen it online for a long time but I used to.
I saw it on hook up apps which weren't exactly highly moderated spaces back in the day. Doesn't make that behaviour any less gross though.
@@plankton50wow which app allows that?
Listening to this made me realise my own dating patterns in my 40s was conforming to a lot of what William was stating.. did not realise I am so predictable lol
but I can see it very clearly now, decisions I made and situations I saw fit into a pattern
Very interesting discussion
This interviewer is horrible. Stop putting your personal story into every remark. You’re not statistics. Be more humble it’s so annoying that you just shut down what he says.
Agree. Not Ash's finest hour
that's the "feminine touch" you have heard so much about.
@@T.R.A.I.N.I.N.G.just remove the women and give us a man, this is a man’s issue. We need less women’s input on men’s problems.
Topics like this need a much more open-minded interviewer. A shame because he's really good.
HOW ELSE ARE PEOPLE SUPPOSED TO SNEEZE ASH?! gotta get that shit demon shit outta ya.
Immensely enlightening! i have been having these thought patterns for soo many months now. It's important how he concedes incel points, not just emotionally recognizing or "building therapeutical alliance" or whatever, but actually saying the points make sense. But still, the burden of women not finding the mate they want =/= the complete loneliness of incels. It's good to try to sympathize with women and overcome the victimization pattern, but women truly have no idea what that's like.
He said the experience are equivalent…
It's social media, dating apps, and online porn. those things have changed human thinking and there are consequences.
so what ban it all?
@@tuckerbugeater make "3rd places" cheaper.
I mean, incels where always around but where do kids and teens and 20s hang out exclusively anymore?
@@V4NowIt is not about these places being expensive from me. I have money and I barely go out.
Just ban social media and dating apps
Take away women’s rights
The main problem that I have with this interview is that he isnt “an expect on incels”, rather an expert on evolutionary psychology theories to explain incels.
Evolutionary psychology is wildly controversial in the broader field of psychology. I found that the researcher painted men (and all humans for that matter) in a disappointing light - one in which we are slaves to our own biology.
Evolutionary psychology has in large been used in the past to justify awful things (ex. violence, infidelity, war, etc.). And while its easy to brush things off as, “well thats the biology of it 🤷”, it is so much more important to look at our behavior from all lenses, culturally, socialogically, etc.
I'm so glad someone has said this. As soon as I heard 'i have a background in evolutionary psychology' I could feel myself going 'oh dear'.
Evolutionary psychology, in my experience at least, is more of an attempt to reduce current social/behavioural/gender norms to an immutable natural property, and in doing so entrench them. Like when he's talking about Vikings and monks was so dehumanising and simplistic.
The more frustrating thing is I would say the philosophy of evolutionary psychology really supports 'incel-dom'. It feels like he's saying what black-pill incels say, just more mildly and then saying 'but don't be an incel' at the end. Ash raises some good challenges, though. Interesting interview but frustrating 😂.
I almost feel like there's a HUGE mischaracterization of the phenomena at the very basis. They often say "incel culture" or "incel ideology". "incel" is a condition, not an ideology. What they mean is the "red pill ideology", which is the resentful, misoginistic, very vocal, minority found on certain corners of online forums. It's like very much not the same thing, but reflects the misconceptions that then translates into beliefs such as incels=white, violent, right-wing men.
Good to see Alexis Mac Allister pursuing other hobbies besides football 👏🏼
LMAO!🤣
This man is among the most reasonable and well-spoken advocates for a male perspective. And everything he had to say that didn't immediately line up with her preconceived view the world she simply dismissed without much of any thought. This was a really depressing interview to listen to.
Ive definitely noticed that women give off less interest now to me post covid. It is actually a stark difference, mu ex girlfriend broke up with my after covid and I found dating far more difficult after lockdown ended.
This was much more interesting than the rage-bait clips you posted on tiktok would have me believe.
A whole conversation about 'mating' and not once was the word 'love' mentioned, wow capitalism has really fucked us up 😂
this is so grim i cant watch this further
@@verraguid it is, what's up with Novara?
Well, strange as it may seem, Love is a relatively new and evolving concept in human development
@@arlettineharpy86 they seem to think engaging with wronguns and very strange 4channy disscusions will turn more people to their side?
@@verraguid yeah was thinking the same
Try a "house tinder " profile....we put up our whole house ( there were about 7 of us )...it was basically for one of our roomies but we each had a little blurb. If you wanted to meet one of us you had to meet all of us. It made my friend feel alot safer to meet guys and was a really fun time for the rest of us ( we actually because became quite the "hit " and met alot of people because if it( not to mention that we went viral for it
..my only, thank God, viral moment)
That sounds like a fun idea.
Love this
We did it for a summer and it was honestly such a fun time. It could easily ....well I don't wanna say mass mingles are a Breez haha , but it could be done haha with a group of friends ...a squad profile haha @@anthill1510
All fun and games until Tinder bans the account for breaching terms of service (one account per person) and whoever made the account will have to factory reset their phone to make a new one.
Do you live inside a mid 2000s E4 sitcom?
Some interesting stuff in this re incels, but it's also reconfirmed my dislike of evolutionary psychology
I'm curious, is this a dislike or a disagreement? Is this just an emotional reaction to something you find to be distasteful or do you have real arguments against it as a concept?
Good point about dating culture becoming too atomised. We certainly don't need dating and courting to be like an episode of Bridgerton, but bringing back some of the old ways of socialising would probably help as the pendulum has surely swung too far the other way. A local dance, with simple codes and norms, that is an everyday, normal part of the culture, is just one example of a form of social infrastructure designed to make forming relationships easier for all. Hard to push back in this way though in an increasingly digital world.
How the hell do you think your personal anecdotes, which probably aren’t even accurate, are at all something relevant to bring up to scholar talking about statistics?
Because he can react to them and then either affirm or deny them, idk why you are getting so mad. She is one of the people on the receiving end of the hate of incels, obviously she is going to have personal thoughts about it. She is not the researcher in this topic, he is and she is just pointing out her own thoughts and experiences as a woman so he can tell her what his research says about it. And oftentimes he even agreed with her assumptions, that for example incels do place too much importance on looks. There are other videos where he is simply presenting information, you can watch those. This woman is doing nothing wrong. Women are literally the ones targeted by incels and you expect her to not talk about any of her experience as a public figure at all? Again, she is not the researcher, he is. And this is not a vacuum, she is telling her experience to a researcher that can then react to it and you even saw that. She did nothing wrong, they had a great discussion. There is no reason to be mad at her.
His statement about incels being mostly ethnicels refutes almost all lamestream narratives on this issue. Do ethnicels also view white women as racist?
Yes, that's literally what incels complain about. Racism against their own race. For example, Asian men being considered less attractive. THAT"S RACISM. So incels do have a legitimate complaint beleive it or not. It's just that people have a hard time feeling bad for men. I'm not asian btw.
@@lancemusashi6368 I would also suggest that many liberals would struggle to accept that women can be racist. In my personal experience, many are.
So Ash, you are way into rap? I'm not, but I fell in love with the Bristol scene... Massive Attack, Tricky... I was listening to Tricky's "Mission Accomplished" EP earlier today... as "punk" as anything I've ever heard.
I hate to indentify with the term 'incel' because of the association with misgogynistic men, it is an accurate description of my status. I could probably escape this status if I were to dedicate a lot of my time over the next few years towards improving my diet (I regularly go to the gym but am slightly overweight), learning how to dress well, getting back into the habit of cooking, keeping my room clean, swapping my exceptionally male-dominated hobby (Magic the Gathering) to something that I would probably enjoy less but doesn't repel women, getting on the dating apps, etc. Granted, some of that I should do in any case. But all of that is daunting, so I keep putting it off.
I met my current partner at a literature club I went to every week, also met my ex-girlfriend at an art history event. More cultured hobbies tend to work best for meeting women, at least in my experience if that's any use to you. Remember the more time you are spending at home, the less likely you are to meet the right girl. On the fitness thing, DO NOT go on any of the online fitness forms, ended up messing with my head in my 20s and although I did get in extremely good shape at one point I ended up with body dysmorphia and couldn't maintain my physique anyway. Just at least try do 10k steps a day and the gym a couple of days a week and cut out sugar. Good luck! and btw Cos is a good shop for men's clothes, elegant and simple, not that expensive either.
@@SkyyVodkaayou don't have to invest less time in your interests to find someone, even if it's a male dominated hobby I think you shouldn't sacrifice something that makes you happy just in the hopes of pleasing someone else.
@@beesknees2594 When did I say that? It's totally fine to play magic. Even still, yes you literally do have to invest less time in your hobbies if you want to find a successful long term relationship... what an illogical complaint man.
@@SkyyVodkaa oh sorry, I meant to reply to OPs comment, not your reply.
honestly, if you did all of that, it probably wouldn't have the effect you want. you might get the attention of some girls you're not interested in, and after the years of hardwork and self improvement you will be enraged that even average looking girls pay you no attention. if you don't believe me either watch wheat waffles or try it for yourself
TIV : Tendency for interpersonal victimhood is a thing.
Mating market does imply goods and goods and services and goods and services are impersonal so an interpersonal dating market does seem contradictory.
Yes. We're so much more than the sum of our parts so it's an insane analogy to apply but it's one that people are taking to heart and getting really damaged by!