ALAN MOORE hates the term Graphic Novel
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- čas přidán 19. 03. 2023
- #alanmoore #Watchmen #graphicnovel Alan Moore again hurts the fragile feelings of comics fans by stating that the pretentious term "graphic novel" is just a façade from which fanboys can continue reading superhero comics while now claiming it's no different than great literature solely because of format.
- Krátké a kreslené filmy
I LOVE the engagement on this video but it's really weird to have spent months doing a heavily researched 15-minute piece on Frank Frazetta that has about 20 Likes and 3 Comments; and meanwhile I upload an 86-second answer by Alan Moore and it's at 73 Likes (several Dislikes as well) and more Comments than I ever get otherwise. I will just say that there's a whole Playlist on Moore's work and interviews if you're interested...and also please SUBSCRIBE if you like comics OR graphic novels ;)
It's probably easier for people to have a quick response on Alan Moore's own hot take. Also the title for this vid is provocative. Perfect headline.
@@CardboardBots That's all true. And hell, he quite literally says he "hates" the term, so the headline is all his. ;)~
The algorithm is weird like that, this is the first video of yours youtube has shown me. I will check out the rest :)
CZcams- "Quickly make short things that can each have an ad between them - No, faster! Faster! Make us the money!"
@@benhillman8384 LOL. The thing is I'm not even monetized. Also I'm not surprised of course that more people will watch a 90-second video with a provocative statement over a 15-minute essay; just like vastly more people will listen to a soundbyte than read a newspaper article. But I am surprised that of the 530 videos on my channel, this is the one to get the most comments by far. Anyway, now back to making YT more money ;)
He's right though. There is a structural difference in the storytelling of monthly issues, even decompressed ones, vs the narrative beats and structure of a longer form work. Calling collections graphic novels is like calling a dvd of a television show a movie because it has 3 hours of content on one disc.
To play devil's advocate... Charles Dickens' novels were serialized chapters before they were collected into book form. We afford them the dignity of novels and literature now.
@@CardboardBots The reason we should not and the difference is right there in your comment. Floppy comics have a narrative structure that shares more in common with older television, which is to say an episodic structure inherent in each invidual issue. Reading six of these issues consecutively does not mean you have read something with the narrative structure of a novel any more than watching six episodes of Friends back to back means that you have watched a Friends movie. It is not the number of pages that made Dicken's novels into novels, it is the narrative structure. Similarly collections of Chekov's short stories don't magically become novels because they have been collected under one cover. So no, you are wrong, and perhaps you need to do some more reading since you don't seem to understand narrative structure.
@@RarebitFiends i don't disagree with you. Just playing devil's advocate. A DVD season does not a movie make. As a child I recall seeing some weekly episodes of cartoons edited together into movies. The TV show would have these 5 episode story arches which told a complete adventure. Obviously this weighs more heavily towards the 12 issues of She Hulk bound together.
@@CardboardBots Fair enough, this is one I have discussed with people a lot over the years. I find it frustrating because the misuse of the term I think undermines actual graphic novels in a way, it confuses things for newcomers... and long before Moore said it, I was of the opinion it mostly came from people insecure about reading comics; which is a little sad to me because comics are such an amazing storytelling medium, there should be no shame in liking them.
I’m honestly fine with whatever banner bookstores want to hang above the comic section as long as people are buying them. I’m reminded of Craig Thompson’s ‘Blankets’ where he specifically added “An Illustrated Novel” under the title, as if the word “Graphic” was hurting the reputation of the art form. Moore’s “BIg Expensive Comic” label would’ve helped get the point across better. (Blankets is also very good, no disrespect)
This is my feeling also. "Graphic Novel" is more marketing term than anything else. In fact, it comes from Will Eisner. I think I uploaded a video where he states that he was trying to get a longform comic (perhaps A Contract with God) published and contacted a conventional book publisher he knew (Baronet Books). He called them up and knew he needed to say something other than 'comic book" so he told them he had a graphic novel. They told him to bring it by and once the publisher saw it he said "Will, this is just a comic book." Since then there have been a lot of attempts at new terminology from "Drawn Novel" to Craig Thompson's redundant "Illustrated Novel." I think Blankets is a bit melodramatic and saccharine btw. Big Expensive Comic (in truth far less expensive in volume than individual pamphlets) is also a good term, but terrible in terms of marketing (except for snobs who want to flex the "expensive" element).
Blankets was so heartfelt to me. I couldn't put it down. So compelling. So much passion and beauty in every brushed line. A wonderful coming of age story.
He can be right and wrong at the same time. Comics are comics regardless their physical format. Collecting periodic issues of a comic book/magazine doesn't make it magically a high literary achievement. It may elevate it somewhat because someone found the material worthy to collect and represent for future audiences.
I'm looking at a shelf with Akira, Cerebus, Stray Bullets, Habibi, Michael Rabagliati, Charles Burns, Dylan Horrocks, Jeff Lemire, From Hell, Daniel Clowes, and Beanworld. I see stand alone graphic novels and collected stories that have plenty of artistic and literary merit.
There is genre stuff there too. Superheros, horror, romance, children's fantasy. Stuff that challenges, that reinvents, that makes you think. It can do that while being a guilty pleasure.
All true, of course. Clearly when he says "12-issues of She-Hulk stapled together" it's quite funny and cutting, but also technically a collection rather than a GN. In terms of substance or quality that's irrelevant, however. Surely he agrees with you on Clowes and Burns and Los Bros etc. He's just railing against the fact that the term "graphic novel" lent aid and comfort to superhero fanboys who then used it to perpetuate that the wrong sort of comics were equal to serious literature. Prickly and pretentious maybe (especially when he wrote many such books himself, even if he disavows them now) but as you say, he's both wrong and right.
Trade paper backs
Yeah any such labels are just marketing terms so people can understand what format they are getting.
@@GodLovesComics lol I love this interview of Rob Liefeld saying that Alan Moore likes to come off as some mage or warlock, but he's not lol
@@spiderphil I kind of hate the Cartoonist Kayfake twats (really only Eddie Pissant), but I did hear that interview. Liefeld is probably the worst creator of comics in the modern era, but I don't doubt the quotes he attributes to Moore, because Rob isn't creative enough to make up dialogue like that on his own ;)
Very telling that to him the word graphic equals violence and not image
Graphic novels is a perfectly reasonable name to describe the format and size of the story
Calling it a comic is reductive and acting like there's been no progress is ignorant at best or creatively malicious at worst
EXACTLY BRO like man I appreciate Moore's work but some of the stuff he says about comics comes off as so ignorant
Greatest writer of American comics ever, never to be surpassed ❤
Of Western comics ever. I agree.
Bro has a point.
Alan Moore saying facts, as usual.
What I like about Alan Moor is that he tell as it is.
If it wasn't for him the comic books industry would be in a boring place.
He also one of the few comic books writers who push boundaries in mature story telling in comic books and he also beat the comic books censorship .
So for me he be in my top ten most imported comic books writers. 🤔
Lol. Frank Miller was and still is miles ahead of Alan Moore. So are Grant Morrison and Garth Ennis for that matter.
Alan Moor was the first British comic book writer to break into the American comics books industry.
He he worked on a lot British comic before he make it in the big time in a America.
And DC comics at that time wanted new creative talents to work on their comics at that time Alan Moor was the comic book writer they noticed
So he was first one to work for DC after that Grant Morrison and other British comic books writers follow.
But I do like Frank Miller work as a artists and writer Daredevil , Batman Year One and Dark Night Return. And I also like Grant Morrison Animals Man ,Doom Patrol . I remember reading those books at the time .
Morrison and Miller would be on my top ten list as well. Half the writer would be British and the other half would be American on my ten list.🤔
@@thehmc I don't think Miller as a writer is even remotely on the same level as Moore. Grant Morrison's work can be brilliant but as a body, it is tainted by the consumption of drugs that often makes it too self-indulgent and obtuse. Ennis is smart but very much one-note in his constant desire to shock and disgust which is why you hear so little about him when taking about the best writers ever in teh medium. Moore's name will always come up in that debate.
Comics today are in a much more boring place BECAUSE OF HIM!
All the endless "deconstructionist" dark gritty crap
@@yalbad5160 Oh, yes, how dare you, Alan Moore, take a bright, childish figure as a superhero and make an adult satire? How dare you mock about characters fighting crime in underpants? 😱 And finally, how dare you to use those characters and tell an interesting story, adapted to your adult audience?!
"Oi boi! Have yo' go' a loicens for this video?"
i'm coming to town
He’s out of line but he’s right.
If he's right then he can't be out of line. We should always push for honesty over polite facade.
@@GodLovesComics it’s a meme
@@airsir9559 Okay. Sorry I can't keep track on the billion memes out there.
@@GodLovesComicsdawg actin like Alan Moore himself
I’m pretty sure Will Eisner coined the term. Who you gonna listen to? Eisner or Moore?
Well Moore never said he invented it. Eisner came up with it because he was trying to sell "A Contract With God" to a conventional book publisher but he knew they wouldn't look at a comic book so he told them he had a "graphic novel" and they were excited. Then when the publisher saw it he said, "looks great Will, but this is a just a comic book!" It got marketed to the book trade and libraries as a graphic novel, and of course then all the comics publishers latched onto the term for marketing purposes.
@@GodLovesComics Correct. You know your stuff.
@@Jamaicafunk It's the kind of stuff I usually forget or don't pore over, but I think I may have posted a snippet of an Eisner interview where he told that exact story ;)
And he's right, to be fair. They're all just stories, and the word "novel" is thrown around to manufacture prestige. It's all made up and meaningless. Watchmen is a great story, and so is East of Eden, and so is Neil Gaiman's Sandman. Just take it in, folks. Nothing is being destroyed.
yeah except for the part where he basically called adult comic book fans, "Emotionally Retarded." 😐
Clearly has a chip on his shoulder about being considered a serious literary figure. Sorry love, but you can give away your shoes and sleep in a hammock, won't make you any more 'worthy' and it certainly won't make you interesting. His novel Jerusalem was evidence of this, just overcompensating, trying far too hard. The secret of good writing is economy of prose, not a lot of floweriness and pretentious, formless plotting disguised as complexity. The mark of a good writer, fundamentally, is not some dreary political sermonising about why you shouldn't like your fascist heroes, but a strong, well conceived story which actually, you know, engages it's audiences and, yes, even permits them to misbehave. I would agree with him on one point though - the comics medium is capable of so much more, I've always found it hard to believe that Watchmen and V for Vendetta were the best we could do.
That’s funny
You kind of just cancelled your own point. That’s exactly what Alan Moore did
@@Ernan_Films Sorry, did what exactly ? Both wmen and V for V were basically vehicles for Moore's politics and just long, windy diatribes against what he perceives as 'fascism', eg heroes and the nation state, as applied to the West at any rate. I could forgive him that if they were fast-paced and entertaining stories but they weren't, not for me anyway. And I don't necessarily disagree with his politics but it seems to me he was elevated by the critical establishment because of them and little else. As is often the case with such didactic material, the comics readership engaged on an unintended level - eg rather than interpret superheroes such as Rorschach as 'problematic' as Moore intended, they largely engaged with them sympathetically as superheroes so Moore even fails on his own terms as agit-prop subversive. He clumsily wields pretentious aspirations for the superhero genre, seems to have a problem with content he considers 'juvenile' or 'unworthy' (didn't they say the same about the Beatles once?) and a hang up about being considered a worthy literary figure. Bottom line, both books are a heavy going, dreary read.
@@billyliar1614 well I mean sure, I haven’t read for “V for V” yet but what your faulting Alan Moore with can be said for literally almost any other acclaimed writer. Just think about mark twain. I mean do you even like actual novels at this point? Your complaining about not having a plot while complaining it’s a shock that other comics can’t do better it’s kind of hypocritical for a lack of a better word. How do you want a meaningful impactful story without it being personal?
@@Ernan_Films I doubt it. What, so Mark Twain wrote pretentious, over-reaching novels about Superheroes did he ? A lot of acclaimed writers are actually entertaining, though I would agree that a lot aren't and are guilty of exactly the same charges. Literary worth and entertainment value are not mutually exclusive. And Moore's writing was personally inspired by his secret life as a masked vigilante in an alternate dystoptian reality was it ? Erm, not entirely sure where you're going with your other point about hypocrisy either - I don't believe Wmen or VforV deserve their exalted critical status .
True
He didn't say anything wrong.
I agree. He's not wrong.
@@GodLovesComics Unless you know anything about comics or art, then he's just a pretentious wannabe. He's every art school kid with bad taste.
@@thehmc He's been a published writer since the '70s, in an industry that's flooded with people saying "if you know anything, [insert random bullshit here]" while defending the likes of Stan Lee. Clearly he's done something right.
@@groofay "He's been a published writer since the 70s." So have almost all the writers he just criticized in this video. Like I said, it's always obvious that Moore fans aren't very well versed in thinking.
@@thehmc And just like that you've ignored everything else I wrote, using your own point against yourself. Try to actually address points next time.
Comics being juvenile is what makes them great. Alan Moore suffers from pretension. He's always trying to get a seat at the smart kid's table just like when he was a kid. Back when he got to the school with all the actual smart kids and he flunked out. It's funny because all his favorite writers that he ripped off like Lovecraft and the noir writers were all criticized for being juvenile and sensational when they were originally published in the pulps. Moore being too intellectually limited to embrace all the great qualities of juvenile comics is why Watchmen is a really stupid story that's told very well. If this were about music, Moore would be complaining that rock and roll was too infantile and it should be more like jazz. A dead genre that almost no one enjoys.
you are wrong in so many levels but it's your opinion, so it's ok if you like those comics for kids
@@carlosr6462 It's ok that Alan Moore likes Lovecraft and noir pulps. All those stories for kids. I always said that Alan Moore is a stupid person's idea of a smart person, and here you are proving me right. Maybe you should get back to your film studies degree.
The fact you think jazz is dead is insane.
As a lover of comics with long boxes full of juvenile super hero schlock that juvenility has not a damn thing about what makes this medium good and interesting.
He's not really even saying there's anything wrong with the juvenile. He's saying that the term graphic novel is pretentious because it pretends that five issues of she hulk stapled together is somehow a novel.
Now he is wrong because since his hayday there are a lot more things that really can be considered novels that do try to tell stories for adults. Still probably not enough but more than he is aware of. He stopped paying attention to the industry long long ago.
@@donov25 The fact you think jazz is at all relevant is hilarious. When was the last time someone wrote an original jazz song that was a number one hit? Decades and decages ago? The only time jazz is ever on the charts is when some new singer covers an old standard. Yeah, that's the sign of a vital art form. When all the new hits are the same songs from 70 years ago. The only time you see Jazz in the culture is on late night TV and festivals sponsored by rich geriatrics. 2 things that are also dying a slow death.
And yes he is saying there's something wrong with juvenile, and yes, juvenile is the heart of comics and most good art and culture. And what's one of Moore's most celebrated works? V for Vendetta. A story that is a rip off of 1984 except with what element thrown in to make it distinct? That's right. Action and superheroics. Wow. It's like even Moore knows that it's all the juvenile stuff he pretends to hate that sells. People like Moore and yourself are why Manga is eating the lunch of American comics. Because they know that good art is visceral and emotional.
I think some of what you say is right regarding Lovecraft, Douglas Adams etc. often being viewed as juvenile (or more likely lowbrow genre writers) and yet being hugely influential on Moore. But to suggest that Moore isn't intelligent is rather far-fetched. If by the "smart-kids table" you mean being taken more seriously by the literary world and writers in that arena, you're probably correct. I think you could look at Moore lashing out periodically as mostly disenchantment at seeing the promise of the comics medium not being fulfilled in the way he imagines it. That's fair enough, but the endless carping about superheroes and their readers is bother unnecessary and cliché. Superheroes are doing vastly more to ruin the landscape of film right now than they are in comics...primarily because of the economic implications. Anyone can make a comic cheaply...not so with a superhero movie which then sucks all the oxygen (finances) out of the room to allow for anything else.
So, what about the superhero movies that make billions at the box office? Those aren't profiting that much with just kids as their audience. People need to stop gatekeeping and trying to be the standard bearer for who can do what or read what.
Moore (nor anyone else) expressing their opinion in no way stops you from reading what you like or seeing whatever movies you like. The fact that superhero movies appeal to all audiences probably doesn't change Moore's thesis, that it's still lowbrow entertainment. Something that I always resented was the idea perpetuated by The Comics Journal and other critics that the reason comics didn't appeal to women specifically and to adults in general was that superheroes were solely male power fantasies. No one who said that ever recanted when in fact ALL ages and genders flocked to superhero movies. As I had been saying all along, "It was the medium, stupid!"
@@GodLovesComics It's a bizarre form of shaming, if that is the intent. People are overly opinionated about what recreation others take joy in. If it's not comics, it's video games. A more acceptable mainstream pastime would be to watch sports. No one is criticizing them for wearing jerseys for teams they never played on, or colleges they never attended. It's bizarre, but if that is how he wishes to spend his time...
@@bobbysmitty1628 There is a clear element of both self-flagellation and self-importance in many of Moore's statements. In one of the other interviews I posted (I think from The AntiGravity Room) Moore goes on, apropos of nothing, to state that he is largely responsible for the "grim and gritty" decade of comics that followed Watchmen. Which is on one hand is taking responsibility for a terrible trend in comics that followed in his wake, but also ascribing a lot of weight and influence to his own work and its importance. Anyway, I completely agree with you about real sports vs video games vs so-called nerdy preoccupations. I grew up watching all manner of sports but these days get as much enjoyment from competitive League of Legends as I do the NFL. I remember telling an overseas friend who is a very esteemed comics critic (and Doctor) what a huge event the League World Championship was. It was held in South Korea's Olympic Stadium, in fact. He watched a tiny amount and dismissed it by saying something like the players were just "little kids." So it's weird to watch 20-year olds competing in League, but he is a huge soccer fan and has zero compunction cheering wildly for 20-year old (and teenage) soccer stars? Ditto with "real sports fans" dismissing a comics convention as just a big gathering a freakish misfits and nerds who obsess over comics. Meanwhile the same sports fans are spending untold hours every week obsessing over their Fantasy Football leagues. That's soooooo much cooler and more masculine. ;)
@@GodLovesComics 👏👏Well played. 😂
Okay, grandpa.
always right, very lucid.
😆🤦
Somehow, even though I agree with him, I'm left thinking he's a huge jerk.
You'd need a better context for Alan Moore's experiences of the superhero industry, than a quick soundbite on a red carpet. Read What We Can Know About Thunderman for the bigger picture!
He just likes to hate things.
Very eloquent hatred however. Which makes it all the more entertaining.
Weak people online are scared of criticism and therefore call it hate so they can dismiss it without it challenging their bubble. Grow up people.
He is right. I like a juvenile thing called Comic Books.
Luckily they have turned to poo and I can now grow up and stop buying the current stuff.
he's the best at it
this guy is kinda grumpy but he is not wrong...