I just want to state I have the RP-8000F and just want to say I tested my speakers at 1m like he did and it showed the same hole he showed. I then tested the speakers at 3m which is my listening distance in my home theatre in all 3 front row seats and that same hole was gone. So if you do listen to these speakers at 1m then I agree there is an issue. I just don't want people that might use these at a greater distance to rule them out because of this video, because, in my opinion, they are great for home theatre use and don't need the "upgrade" at that distance.
Thank you for the clarification! I was freaking out from this video, because I just bought them with my hard earned money, but now I calmed down a bit.
@@tonezou3918 Did you like the sound before watching this video? If yes you shouldn't even worry about it. Remember these speakers are for you to enjoy!
I just completed this upgrade on my 280fs after thinking about it for some time. As mentioned before, it shares the same OEM crossover as the 8000F. This kit is a good amount of work and you will need to give yourself some time, but it rewards you greatly in the end. Good for us hobbyists. It WILL make this a better tower speaker. If you are an audioholic, the difference is big. It brings out the mids, takes the uncomfortable peak off the tweeter, especially when you turn things up, but it does not take away from the detail or clarity of it. Instead it tames it. Holding my ear up to the two woofers I can tell that the bottom woofer now only plays the lows and the top woofer plays mid range. If you bought this tower and it did not sound as good as you thought it would, this fixes that feeling. You will hear instruments, voices, and other significant details in your music that were left out before. Very pleased with this upgrade.
Did you notice a loss in sparkle from cymbals before the upgrade? And if so did they come back? To me it seems that part of the range is muted slightly as the graph shows. What size board for the crossover? Thanks.
I just completed the upgrade kit for my Klipsch RP 8000F's and am blown away by the difference it made! I already thought they sounded good but decided after watching this channel for a while to take the dive and do the upgrade! Danny makes the kit really easy to DYI! So for all the nay sayers and anyone who is skeptical about if parts matter, i am here to tell you that it makes a Huge difference! I can't believe these are even the same speakers! Keep up the good work Danny and thanks for getting everything shipped out quickly!
Update on the upgrade, i am about 40 hours in and everything is really starting to smooth out! The tweeters were a little on the bright side at first but now blend nicely and these speakers have been taken to the next level with this upgrade! I listen to a lot of different music but mostly am a metalhead, especially Thrash Metal! The guitars really pop now! As i said before if you are skeptical don't be! Danny knows what he is talking about! My equipment is as follows, Audio Technica LP 140 XP with an Ortofon 2m Black LVB 250, Project Tube Box Phono Stage with Gold Lion Tubes, Cambridge AXR 100, Audioquest Cables and for digital i use a Brennan B2 run through the built in Dac on the AXR! Thanks again to GR Reseach for the great customer service!
Boy. Ive been in a lot of fancy houses with professional systems many times more extensive than my 2500 dollar klipsch setup and id say mine sounds every bit as good for any normal person. Now i will say that im sure there IS a scientific sweer spot or correct sound that can be achievee but I really like the way a klipsch sounds out of the box.
Yeah and an EQ will help compensate for any midrange drop. I’ve certainly never noticed it when listening. If anything they seem to have a bump to my ears but everybody hears differently.
I've got to wonder about the 1m measurement also. I doubt many designs (especially horn loaded designs) would have proper driver integration at such a close distance. I've got JBL K2 S9900's and I sit about 9 ft away, and feel like I could be farther, as if it's the first point that they integrate well, but I've got a small house so that's all my room will allow. I'd bet the 1m measurement shows issues, that wouldn't be issues at normal listening distances. I get your points about not measuring the room response though as well, and why you keep the mic close. Also, I've watched several movies on an RP-8000F Atmos system, that was rebuilt with your crossovers and it did sound great, so I'm not knocking your design, just interested in the effects that the close mic placement might be having on your measurements. Incidentally, I have stood in the Klipsch anechoic chamber with it sealed up. I could hear people talking outside the room, so the door seal wasn't exactly perfect. I also think that Klipsch purposefully designs a dip sometimes between drivers to make them sound more "Detailed". I believe they actually told me that. So take that for what it's worth. I'm a midrange guy, so I don't want any dips in my mids.
I used to own a pair of RF62. A similar model. Never measured anything but I liked the way they sounded. One really wants to follow positioning recommendations like putting them away 0.8 m from side and rear wall and turn em in a little to listener's chair.
With this big of a waveguide for the tweeter, they should have designed it with a d'appolito arrangement. That way the accoustic center would be much more manageable.
I owe Danny an apology; after he did this review I got a bad case of "don't bash my speaker" and disagreed with him. Sometime after that, I came to realize that my RP-8000s sounded terrible for music, and ended up going to Emotiva. I moved the 8000s to my shop where they sat for quite awhile, then I bought Danny's kit, built the crossovers and did the modifications. The result is a wonderfully balances speaker that I love listening to. Is it for everyone? Probably not, most people probably don't have the skills to build the crossover and do the mods. And frankly, they might be better off to just sell the speakers and buy some that don't suck. But me being the tinkerer I am, I did the mods, and I'm thrilled with how these speakers I once hated now sound.
I got the rp 5000f , love them, But great stuff here. You don't deserve the bs people are giving here. Great idea you have looking at pre made speakers, and see how they can be improved. I am a bit pissed that klipsch has such a thing in there and it isn't fixed a bit more. But i am not a hardcore audiophile and love how they sound. Although i dont know muchh better, my previous ones where wharfedales. Hope klipsch will see this video and fix it to some extend. Keep doing what you are doing. Cheers.
That 'before' response curve would make Klipsch's spec sheet a total lie by a very large margin. Kinda hard to believe but not impossible I suppose. Just seems extraordinary that they would let them go like that.
One bad review based on measurements, not listening, and so many people are ready to crucify this speaker. If the measured hole was a problem, Best Buy would not be running out of the model nationally. Or is the fact that Best Buy sells it proof that the 8000 is not a serious audiophile speaker? There is no doubt that most speakers can be improved with better parts. Would the SQ difference be significant? Would we be willing to pay a higher price? I have no doubt Danny is honest in his assessment. I am an avid live concert goer and also have no doubt that what the RP-8000F offers is a pretty realistic presentation of well-recorded live performances.
I could have sworn Best Buy sells the Refernece line and not the Reference Premier line? I like the sound of my rp160s, they ain't half bad. I would love to hear one of Danny's designs in person!
If there is an audible improvement I would go for it. I wish I could find reviews about this mod. Until then I remain skeptical. I see the gap in the middle range but I'm not sure how it translates into the listening experience. I've ordered these speakers and hopefully they will arrive in a week.
@@hahdanghongha7810 They sound about as clear as my old B&W 805s but bigger, more spacious. It still needs some more time to break in. At this point I'm 90% sure that I'll keep them. I have a subwoofer but I don't feel the need to use it with these speakers. However I'm not a huge fan of how they look.
@@gejdfr05 I have a set and they sound wonderful to me....I don't think they were design to be flat, they have color like all Klip's...it about the music not the freq, respond at X range, they have the classic Big Klips sound
@@level600a Utimately, it ends up being about personal preference. I'm looking for speakers with a flat responce. I think Klipsch look ugly (those copper colored cones) and sound shouty and boomy. No doubt some are 'better' than others but I've yet to hear any I liked.
Never let a graph tell you what you enjoy. Home theater is meant yo be fun. I bet of this guy’s customers never even knew they didn’t like their speakers until they saw this.
I really like your business model, offering well designed kits to improve speakers we already own. Interesting to listen to you as well. It probably would help your sales to have a web page with a list of all the speakers you have designed with the kit price listed and being able to add that to a cart and order it right on the site. I am also curious to know if you have any recommendations of great value for the money speakers that sound great with your upgrades.
The business model is genius. He "upgrades" the most commonly bought brand in the US, in the most common price range that would include consumers that would likely purchase the kit. He clearly knows what hes talking about and displays the information clearly. The flip side to this is that after watching 100s of videos and reviews about certain Klipsch speakers that would give them a "worth buying" rating, this man can make me change my opinion on buying entirely. Its frusterating to be honest. He presents the data and there is no arguing about it. He is correct. Without any context on cost or comparisons to other speakers in the same range, by the end of the video your left with the idea that the speaker is shit UNLESS you pay an additional 350 for kit. In which case, then you would be in an entirely different price category. Overall i appreciate the info. BUT I am not buying the 8000s and the overwhelming factor being this video. In turn i will not be buying a kit from you either. I dont expect you to lie about the numbers but i suggest you find another sub $1000 tower or $300 bookshelf and pick it apart just the same and i that point, I a consumer, can look at both and make a purchase I feel good about and THEN i can go "Maybe now lets see what the kit can do?" OR lets see what he says about the $1350 step up and maybe i just buy that?
Hello GR-Research, your video had me curious as i was on the fence of buying these speakers a while ago. Since I'm not an audio expert, i figured the best way to validate your claims about the flaws of this speaker would be to reach out to Klipsch's support and allow them to counter your arguments. Finally, one month later i receive a reply and guess what the say? "I suggest disregarding that video. The RP-8000F are great speakers!" ...
No. Klipsch will defend their under-engineered mid-fi products. Never go by a manufacturers claims. I've modded Klipsch for 20 years with Bob Crites and later GR research methods. The mods radically improved the speakers in a quantifiable, measurable way. DO NOT let anyone tell you factory klipsch are perfect as is. They are mid-fi....period.
@@dannyrichie9743 You sound convincing too! You put up a video trying to prove how bad these speakers are then turn around and develop a fix for $350. Everything boils down to the almighty dollar!
Everyone on the klipsch Facebook page hates you for this, im trying to explain to them that you do a good service and weren't bashing klipsch and that you know what you are talking about but I am not articulate enough to defend you, can you make a a video explaining how you started and how you are helping the average consumer. Please I love your video and I want to stand up for you!
A simple survey by Danny of the satisfaction of his customers with the mod would give us valuable information. If I was Danny, that's what I would do. Saying A LOT means nothing.
Interesting....A LOT of reviews on this particular speaker are positive, including one from the guys at Audioholics. In fact, this is the first negative review I’ve seen on them. Who do I trust, the one guy who doesn’t even know the size of the woofers who says the design is broken and he “fixed” it or everyone else?
He's approaching it from an electrical engineer / audiophile perspective which may or may not be what everyone wants. All he was trying to do was to create a flat response output which is what audiophiles desire but may not sound the most pleasant depending on what type of music you listen to. Many "popular" speakers/headphones are focused on creating "happy face waveforms" where there is a peak on the bottom and high and drop in the mid which is EXACTLY what Klipsch did here because many people want lots of bass and treble but don't care as much on the mid. He's basically boosting the mid with his upgraded circuit which may not sound as pleasant DEPENDING on the music content. Probably sounds AMAZING for classical but maybe not so great for rock/hip-hop/electronic.
@@Jedi2155 you're completely right so not trying to bash. Just this speaker isn't anything close to the "happy face" this is just a completely wrong design from Klipsh. I've designed a few speakers myself and tried flat and smily responses en found I enjoy flat ish with a 1 to 2 dB drop from 200 orso Hz to the top end.
@@Jedi2155 You are 500 percent right.All Klipsch reference speakers Danny tests have the same response.Klipsch wants these speakers to sound like the bass and treble controls on the amplifier are turned up, and that sound is immensely popular as are the speakers.I used to up the same controls when I got into hi fi in the 1970's.Klipsch has killed two birds with one stone, got the sound they want while saving money on a lousy crossover.It is surprising how many self styled audiophile reviewers worship these speakers.Danny has done the right thing by flattening the frequency response, addressing the phase anomalies and improving the spectral plot.Now if one wants to alter the response to the bass up- treble up shape use an equaliser .I am sure details,imaging the soundstage will still be better thanbefore.
@@dannyrichie9743 Danny, I'm someone who has replaced stock crossover parts on Magnepans and know the amazing improvement just doing that can bring about. I don't doubt your mod can have a positive impact on the 8000 SQ. However, to gain credibility it's not enough that you talk about what other people say to you privately. Those folks should be able to share their stories with the rest of us who contemplate an improvement. Maybe I've missed some reading, but people who feel good about something are typically very eager to share their experience directly.
I have read other reviews on this speaker and they rate it very well. I don't understand why your review is so much different. Thanks for a different point of view.
I can't speak for anyone else. I try to just shoot straight and tell it like it is. The response issues have been confirmed by others as well. There is certainly a hole in the response. There is a time domain issue there too. Cabinets are lightly made and need No Rez badly. The parts quality on them was very poor. They were kind of a disaster. I am not really sure how anyone else would thing otherwise.
So i bought these 2 months ago and have them hooked up to a good receiver a nice dac nd a beautiful amp and i have the speakers about 2 feet from the wall and let me tell you nothing but perfection. The sound is great its everything i wanted without messing with anything. Just use some good front end components and you will not be disappointed. If you use poor components then you'll get poor sound. But for me no problems and too buy anything else would be a waste of my money.
I've read another review on the 8000f from audioholics who did frequency response testing. Their charts show the speakers to be almost completely neutral throughout the entire range. Very different than this measurement with such a massive dip in the midrange. Just curious to understand how they can have such different results?
I saw that one also, because I have the older model RP 280f's. Very disappointed in your measurements compared to Audioholics measurements on RP8000f. Why such a difference in measurements ?
The reviewer at Audioholics confirmed that he was able to get the same measurements as well, but they choose not to publish them showing the dipped area.
@@dannyrichie9743 I figure you can make any speaker show a different frequency response depending on the room and equipment it's tested with. The audioholics guys show their test was done outdoors to eliminate echo since they don't have an anechoic room. I guess my main point is how do we know who's right, and whether or not these modifications will actually work for us?
@@richelh First of all, my measurements use a gated time window. So there are no room reflections or echo in the response. And the reviewer reported (on the discussion here on CZcams) that he was able to get those same measurements. There is no he's right or I'm right. The measurements can both be an accurate representation from the point they were measured from. I could have moved out further away and below tweeter axis where the drivers time arrival was a little better, but to find an ideal response is not the point. It is to get an overview of the response on axis and off axis as to have a better idea of what the room response will be, how the time arrival of the drivers are, and how that will effect the imagining and sound stage. And in this case the drivers were not reaching one another in range or phase. And they had an uneven response on and off axis. There is no debate of that. It's a fact. And the modifications are a HUGE improvement. Not only are all of those areas addressed and significantly improved, but the quality of the parts is a HUGE improvement as well. The performance jump across the board takes them WAY beyond where they were from the factory, and those that have already implemented the upgrade confirm that as well.
The measurements of my Klipsch 280f look absolutely nothing like that. It's within 1db up or down from 78 hz to 16 khz and at the extreme ends (below 78 and above 16k) it's 2db over. This is not measuring in an anechoic chamber or even a treated room, just an ordinary 2200 square foot room. Best speakers I've ever heard with the possible exception of definitive technology. But not even the DT makes sound so lifelike and gives guitar and cymbals the weight of the impeccable Klipsch horn. Truly a masterpiece speaker system. Klipsch speakers with Yamaha gear brings music to life like nothing else I've ever heard. If anyone out there let's these "reviewers" steer them away from Klipsch, they, these so called reviewers, have kept you in the dark tied up mentally and from enjoyment in the audio community snake oil web. Absolutely no one that I've ever heard will ever separate me from Klipsch, not even jbl, elac, buchardt, or definitive technology. I dare say kef, zu, buchardt or triangle wouldn't take their place either.
No way man - most of the Klipsch Reference stuff is missing that midrange. I’ve owned RF- III’s and Forte III’s at the same time. It was night and day. If the RF series didn’t have that suckout around 1khz from the factory, they’d probably be better than the fortes - but with the suckout it’s a mess
@@Sloimerfor one the sound my system creates in definitely not a mess. If yours is I think you need to work on placement. Next, my question to you is why are none of my room correction equipment giving a huge bump in those frequencies? Plus I hear nothing missing in those frequencies, plus my spl meter doesn't show any disconnect in frequency. I have wanted to move up to the forte iii or Cornwall for the mid-range because of all the stuff saying the Klipsch's are missing the mid-range but there's no evidence of a sucked out mid-range from my Yamaha or my Denon. But I am admittedly hooked to the Klipsch horn's sound, that's why I'm defending it steadfastly. A huge loss in mid-range like that would be very audibly discernable but my 280f are set to within 1db up or down from neutral from 78 to 16k Hertz. I imagine the only way to get such a sucked out mid-range must come from node cancellations in your room or positioning. My 600m on the other hand do get a 2.5 db boost in the 2k region. I've seen it anywhere from 1.5 up to 3.5 up depending on where I have it positioned. One last thing, I've never thought the rf-7 sounded as good as the 280f. I know a lot of people say they do but from what I hear in comparisons, I prefer the 280f.
@@kohnfutner9637 well I’ve done extensive A/B tests and I can tell you the in terms of perceptible sound, there was a great deal of fullness and weight missing from male voice and certain sound effects. Maybe it has to do with the woofer vs horn sound for the 700-1500khz range and crossover point. IDK.
@@Sloimer another question I have is if the rf-7 were so bad and needed so much help, why would you have bought another Klipsch? Are you saying that you like the Klipsch sound so much that you wanted the speaker with the dedicated mid-range? It's hard to understand how you could fathom a fondness for the sound of a brand of speaker if the entire mid-range was fully sucked out as Danny's frequency graph would represent.
@@kohnfutner9637 Ok here goes - I owned the RF-7 II's first, got rid of them, and then went to the Forte III's later. I never had a problem with the RF-7 II's - big, dynamic, bass heavy, and at that point in time I didn't have much of a reference point. When I got the Forte III's - I couldn't put my finger on why I liked them so much and just attributed it to being a more current model. Later I purchased the RF-7 III's, figuring they would be similar to the Forte III's except bigger, and was going to move the Forte III's to my office. Well, right off the bat, when I started playing Doom Eternal on the RF-7 III's, I noticed they were louder, but some of the sound effects seemed very recessed. Male voices sounded thin and I didn't feel any resonance in my chest from firing some of the weapons. So I brought the Forte III's back and did the A/B test and did some research on frequency range and what falls into which parts of the spectrum, and just as my research would suggest, upon doing the A/B test there was a night and day difference in the presence, weight, and impact of the sound effects in question, and a much more engaging aural experience with the Forte III's. Also, not sure I understand your logic - there's no such thing as a perfect speaker. Every speaker has to give up SOMETHING to get something else. A speaker can't be mellow and forward at the same time, or have some spice on the top end but also be rolled off. It comes down to preference. Overall, I enjoy the Klipsch sound - they're dynamic and sharp on the top end, but with some specific models there is TOO much distortion (La Scala's and Klipschorn), or they're missing something in the mid-range (all RF speakers). In my opinion, the Forte III and the KLF-20/30's are the only Klipsch speakers I've personally owned that do it all, while retaining the signature dynamics and live quality Klipsch is known for, without it sounding like there's a chainsaw in your ear. Are you suggesting that there is no variation whatsoever between Klipsch speakers and that if I don't like one, that must then mean that I like none of them?
I have a pair of RP-8000Fs and they are my first Klipsch speakers. I bought them mostly due to the mostly positive reviews on CZcams and other sources. At first I was really impressed since I could hear sounds in songs I had never heard before. Then I started to notice that certain types of music sounds dramatically better than others. Classical, certain types of rock like Steely Dan, Pink Floyd etc sounded great. Then I started to notice that some types of music didn't sound very good at all like hard rock and heavy metal. There were guitar parts and some vocals that seem to be missing in certain ranges. If I wasn't very familiar with the music I may not have noticed but it started to bother me and I found myself only listening to music that sounded the best with the speakers. Then I watched this video a while ago and It seemed like he hit the nail on the head. I think that range where the drop off is is the range that is missing and bothers me. I am considering doing the upgrade but I just don't know about pulling apart my $ 1500 set of speakers and messing around with them. Especially if I mess them up my wife would never let me live it down.
Why is GR-research having to fix these speakers, it should be the manufacture doing this? What’s wrong with this picture? Selling speakers that can be fix to sound right is not the costumers responsibility. We are not Klipsch’s R&D team or their beta testing monkeys. Apparently the person who is supposed to be listening to the speakers before sales at Klipsch is not doing their job.
@@everss02 What´s your point? They are made in China, after they have been designed in USA by Klipsch. The Chinese factory will make them as Klipsch will tell them to.
They are built to a pricepoint, if they shipped with all the upgrades in them they wouldn't be the price they would be more expensive. Now Klipsch could have designed a crossover with more flat response, but that ain't their style.
@@MTBD80 This is garbage. You can still use the cheap parts with correct values that will give you a similar response to GR Research design at no extra cost. This is poor design. Plain and simple.
I have a set of Ref. IV RF-82, RC-62, RS-52 and I love the towers for critical stereo listening and as well, movies.. but, my center seems to have a fault in the x-over. It rings ear-piercingly so at certain voice tones. I ordered a set of RP-504c II and RP-8000f II so I would like to entertain these fixes for my center, and might as well match the towers as well. I will try to upload some findings to my channel. Thanks for all the years of efforts Danny. I finally have a valid case to try this out.
curious about doing this to mine, but honestly they sound very good to me. I dont notice any dip or null in sound at all. But i also do a room correction and have subs. As a honest businessman, is this really worth it? Am i going to be "wowed"?? i was pretty wowed and still am listening to these speakers
It seems like he's just trying to sell kits that you don't even need. The only guy that actually bought it and installed the x over said it barely made an improvement
If you own these speakers you NEED this upgrade. Without it they are a disaster. And I actually I get reports from our customers regarding this upgrade that are overwhelming positive and they are very grateful.
@@dannyrichie9743 Is there any way to read their reviews? I could find only two. One said the difference is huge' the other said there is no noticeable difference. I'm really interested.
@@elduderino1329 Anyone that said there was no noticeable difference didn't implement this upgrade. And you can find feedback in our forum at the Audio Circle.
@@dannyrichie9743 Characterizing a device as a disaster is name calling and strong evidence that the allegation is not true. No "disaster" is as popular among both reviewers and customers as the RP-8000F. Measurements, like statistics, can be manipulated. As such a very popular speaker, it is a prime target for seeds that it can be improved. It may very well have that potential but all the evidence requested by commenters here that would make the claim credible has not been forthcoming.
@@armandorancano6415 Measurement have not been manipulated and they match measurements taken by many others. And drivers out of phase in the crossover region, a deep hole in the response, a tweeter playing louder than the other drivers, further cancellation in the vertical off axis, and significant cabinet wall resonances certainly add up to a disaster in my book. Add in bottom of the barrel parts quality, wiring, and connectors and it is about as bad as it gets. And the upgrade has been reviewed in various places all over the Internet resulting in a lot of orders and very happen customers.
How to improve your listening experience with klipsch: Sell them and get better speakers. I am done with those tinnitus-factory horns. What they have in transient attack is lost in detail /nuance and dimension. They are mid-fi speakers ok for HT. They don't "reveal" they exaggerate. I sold off my Klipsch reference and am never looking back. FWIW: I did the GR research mods. The mods greatly improved on the crappy factory crossover and poor engineering. Still, the speakers have that nasty titanium tweeter. Ever use Klipsch nearfield? It's painful.
I totally agree with you on that. I also chose the German Canton Vento 896DC, which are much more balanced, especially when listening to classical music.
Danny, thanks so much for this. Yes, you really can’t sensibly do a 2 Way tweeter/woofer/woofer. Only woofer/tweeter/woofer for coincident sound. Curious to know if you found any breakup modes on the midwoofer. Metal cones love to ring don’t they. I see you didn’t implement an LCR notch filter like you did for rp600m stand mounted. What crossover freq are you using in kit and what are slopes? Thanks, keep up the great work.
Yes, those woofers have a hell of a peak up top that rings like a bell. They needed an aggressive notch filter on them to kill it. See measured responses: gr-research.com/Klipsch/klipsch%20RP-8000%20crossover.jpg
I'm beginning to wonder if Klipsch is on to something here. Seems that a lot of their speakers that Danny look at have the V shape dip in response curve. I don't know about you, but ever since I was a kid whenever I get my hands on a stereo that has an equalizer I always set the EQ to look just like a V curve, we love to turn up the bass and treble and tune down the mids.
If it was intentional then we would just see it as an amplitude variation. Unfortunately it was caused from drivers not being in phase as well. No one does that on purpose.
I have the RP-5000f and they sound Amazing, I bet your sound Amazing to. so you can leave it there. The stock Klipsch are still Really Good speakers and the Cross over are still Very good and better than most speakers out there. the Tweeter are Amazing (I still turn down the treble a lot) and they look Amazing and they Rock out. (stock) But all speaker can be improved and if you go into Danny level than your in the Big leagues and he will rip a part any speakers & He also can take your speakers into another level. it appears that the farther away the lower woofer is from the tweether the bigger the gap is. And all the RP- have this gap between the woofer and tweeter, including mine I measured it.
IYO I have the RF-35 and RF-82II and they sound Muddy we all know about the tweeters to bright.Why did the smaller RF-42II Sound so good the the Bigger ones sound so Muddy?
This is just almost unbelievable that Klipsh failed so miserably im their design. We might have expectations from Radio Shack, but typically their speakers sound much better this. Disappointing to hear. I think this speaker should have been designed a MTM configuration. Always appreciate Danny's remediations and taking time to explain in details...
I tried prototyping this crossover and wasn't that impressed with the results (I managed to find the schematic from pictures posted on the internet). I just did one speaker and put side by side with the original playing a mono track. Using the balance control I could easily switch between the two speakers and the GR-Research one lost its life and energy. It didn't sound like a Klipsch speaker to my ears,. it sounded like just another tower - you pick the brand. I remember when I bought the Klipsch from the dealer they had all the Klipsch range lined up with a B&W tower thrown in . Using remote switching you could switch between speakers and when the B&W was selected you could hear the difference. The B&W sounded lifeless, less engaging in comparison. The GR-Research modified Klipsch reminded me of the B&W! As mentioned by other comments that dip goes once you get to 2 metres or more away from the speaker. I did measure the GR-Research speaker and the frequency response was pretty flat at 1 meter as shown in the video. But these speakers are not designed for near field listening, they are designed for large rooms for 2 metres or more and in that environment they already sound pretty good as is. One thing that GR-Research doesn't mention in his videos is the distortion. These speakers measure very well in their original form. But I doubt if they will measure so well with this revised crossover as the tweeter slope drops from a 24dB 4th order to 6dB Ist order in the new design. That means at lower frequency levels a lot more power is going to the tweeter increasing distortion levels as the crossover frequency is quite low @ 1.5Khz. Crank up the volume to really high levels and the tweeters might give up the ghost as a result! Personally I wouldn't touch it. Yes there are significant improvements to be had by improving the cabinet resonances and using better quality caps and inductors on the crossover (I have done it) but don't use the Gr-Research design. Oh and if the brightness is the thing that annoys you most just increase the tweeter resistor to 4.5 - 5 ohms. An easy change. You don't need to spend 500 bucks to achieve that!
Anything for the rf72 11 and rc 64 11...they are a tad bit fatiguing. Love the sound but have to us eq in my marantz pre/pro to tame them down...very informative videos and I definitely enjoy each and every one ..I thank you for your time👍
I have this dip on my rp6000f's. I thought the 8000 had 8" drivers. I hope someone sends in my model. Shipping is a fortune. I wish I found this information sooner. I would've went with the open baffle flat packs for the static x and x voce. I just ordered the rp504c upgrade. Thats a great speaker, but I need to get the mains done...somehow, some way
Yes please I also have a set of R-820F and live in South Africa can't send them to him to test. Might never see them again with Covid going around and our corruption.
How is it that not one reviewer in the whole world, picked up on this big hole in the response? They all have ears, some even have audiophile ears...LOL!! Is this something not easily heard, unless you have tons of experience with different speakers?
Have a pair of Danny's X-LS Encore's to replace a set of Klipsch RP-150M and Canton's (...both I like very much). The X-LS, after kit completion with all the cap upgrades sound phenomenal.
While this sounds legit, and this guy clearly knows a lot, I just cant hear this. I just demo'd B&W 603 vs Klipsch rf8000 and I liked the Klipsch better in virtually all aspects. Great value in my opinion. I was at 2.5 meters. Can we see the data from a trusted source that is NOT selling a product?
Yes, check out czcams.com/video/4FmAmlsAa-o/video.html This is Audioholics review of several tower speakers. Their measurements of the Klipsch are at 30:25 mark. They have the same shape as the curve Danny is showing, but the 10 dB swing at 1,70 Hz does not occur until about 30 deg off-axis, while I think Danny is saying his measurement was that large on-axis.
Have a full set of Aperion Audio 6T's from 2007, finally blew a driver - bought the Klipsch RP-8000F in a piano black finish to replace my towers - was instantly dissapointed as the busted aperion still sounded better than these, I couldn't quite nail it down but the vocals and midrange just sounded 10x clearer on the aperions. I was about to return them via amazon, then came across this video - it makes PERFECT sense, I grabbed a set of cheap bookshelf speakers I got free with a DAC and plugged them in on top of the towers - immediately fixed the issue of the 1khz dropoff and they sound absolutely amazing now. I don't think you have to buy the crossover kit, if you just put a bookshelf on top to fill in that void it fixes everything.
I don't know whether such a modification is desirable. A B&W speaker had such a dip, but a reviewer in Audioholic said he could not hear the dip. Correcting the dip in that B&W speaker to a flat curve in one type of measurement will result in emphasized mid in real world domestic listening.
First rule of audio, you can't hear what isn't there. 😉 B&W is known for their odd frequency response, it helps them sell, but it's not uncommon for people to remodel the crossover for day to day listening. 🙂
@@PSA78 There are many ways to scientifically talk about "what isn't there" and "what is there." We cannot say that one type of measurement to be the perfect, absolute, and universal representation of the reality. Big companies like Dynauio, B&W, and Focal have better measuring tools and environments than a youtuber, even if the youtuber is quite special to own an expensive(expensive to a person, but cheap to a big speaker company) Klippel system.
@@azzinny It's not that complicated to measure a frequency response, and if the changes shows up as well as can be heard it's pretty clear. The problem is at low frequencies. B&W is known to have a very forward presence usually, but with some tweaks they do sound good. It comes down to what the purpose of the speakers are and to a degree how they will be placed, and naturally personal preferences.
@@PSA78 The dip in the measured curve and the inaudibility of the dip is not completely within the B&W house sound you mention. You seem to be one of those who convince themselves after looing at a graph. You reject the Audioholic reviewer by your belief that one frequency response curve says all about the speaker: anyone who says differently from your belief from the curve (not from your listening - you will never need listening as you just see a curve) is a fool or a crook. There are people who think differently from you.
Just my 2cents, you should throw a link up to this kit you mention, also it would be nice to see how you installed the new kit. I want to buy the piano black version the last thing I want to do is ruin the finish. It would also help a novice like me understand how big the lift is on your 400.00 kit.
I just ordered 2 RP-280F front drivers as well as 1 RP-504C Center and 2 RP -502s Surrounds. They have not arrived yet, should be by Mon Nov 2 2020. Are there issues with these that you know of?
ok guys, one reply is missing here, that of the Klipsch manufaturer or did they send out a statement on this potential issue? When I see the measurement results of Danny and Audioholics I am eagerly waiting for other independent labs to do a measurement :)
My measurements have been confirm by numerous people. And the guy that did the Audioholics review said he was able to get the same measurements if he measured the same way I did. He just choose to show measurements that were taken in a way that hid the issues.
Do you brace the cabinet and treat with no-res before measuring the speaker and redesigning the crossover? Or is the no-res and bracing another step to be done that's somewhat independent of the crossover upgrade?
Hi Danny I’ve only just stumbled onto this clip. So basically all I need to do is buy a seperate law pass filter for the bottom woofer. If I was to do that I’d probably just buy new crossovers for all 3. What would you recommend the ranges to be re frequencies. Awesome work
First of all the drivers are 8" not 6.5". Secondly you measure at 1 meter. Nobody listens to music at 1 meter. Great range if one wants to measure sensitivity. Most people listen at 3 to 4 meters. At that distance their is no hole. I would kindly suggest you re-test at 3 meters (real world listening distance) and you will see)hear no hole. The speakers don't need any further upward tilt either. Toe in is dependent on distance as such this is variable.
Please someone send him a rp6000f, you would be doing us all a favor. Someone in Texas. I'm over here thinking about active crossovers...its all too much! I need a kit like this for the rp6000f which measures the same way. Same goes for rp404c having problems like the rp504c does. I knew getting the less popular models would come back to haunt me, but these are just perfect for my setup and my use-case, so I don't regret not going with the 8000 and 504. I want to do all 3, but shipping plus cost...its a lot! These cabinets are in desperate need of no-rez. The center is built well, but the mains sound hollow. Flatten out the response around the crossover point and put some norez on the inside and these speakers would play well above their price.
I purchased this RP-8000F kit for my pair of RP-280Fs. The Klipsch crossover is the same for these as well as the RP-8060FA as all three are nearly identical acoustically (the upfiring height speaker on top of the 8060 has its own crossover). There is a slight difference in the tweeter between the 280 and the others as the two newer models have a vented tweeter. Other than that, the woofer drivers and cabinet are the same except for a few mostly cosmetic details on the cabinets. So I finished one speaker and then did side-by-side comparisons between the stock 280F and modified 280F. The difference is not subtle. I would go so far as to say the modded RP-280F sounds less like a Klipsch speaker now! In all loving kindness and respect to Paul W Klipsch, sometimes Klipsch speakers are just unbearably bright. This upgrade tones down that fatiguing glare significantly and adds balance to the tweeter output with no loss of detail. The bass is tighter and the upper midrange is smoother especially on female vocals. Just seems to be overall a less "shouty" speaker and somewhat subdued, in a good way. It sounds like a much more expensive speaker now - does that make sense? I am rather pleased with the new sound and starting to take apart the other speaker to finish this project. I am taking my time and care with this while still "working" from home and it took me several days to do the first speaker. Everything you need is included except for mdf board. It helped me to watch the RP-600 crossover upgrade videos as you can see the entire process demoed and explained. The only instructions provided with the kit was a simple schematic so you are on your own. Take your time scraping out all the fiberfill glued to the inside walls but save it to stuff back in after norez is installed. The crossover part quality is top notch. I mounted the new crossover mdf board onto the vertical braces with screws and hot glue. This board is heavy with several pounds of copper from three large inductors. The original crossover was simply screwed on to the back of the small speaker terminal post insert under the port. Two things I did differently, although the impact is probably minimal and maybe insignificant. I carefully added little pieces of dynamat extreme to only cover the outside of the upper woofer basket spokes as these are stamped steel frames that can ring a bit. Also, I bi-amped with an extra pair of tube connectors simply because there were two extra unused amp channels on the 7.1 receiver for this 5.1 system. I think removing the inductive circuit of the woofers from the output stage of the amp in the receiver driving the tweeter is a good thing and having extra copper (two pair of speaker cables and tube connectors) between the amp and the speakers can't hurt. This will not give any more loudness or power but *maybe* a bit more clarity although I did not test that independently. Your mileage may vary and most experts say this is a waste of time on a speaker like this. So call me a rebel...
Toll, dass es Leute gibt, die sagen, was die Lautsprecher sind, und sie nicht so loben, als wüsste man nicht, wie cool die rp8000f sind. Vielleicht ist diese V ok fürs Kino, aber für Stereo eine Katastrophe.
Would you ever test out any _full-range_ speaker drivers? With "whizzer cone" or without, i do not really mind, although I do have a pair of 12" (yes twelve inches) full-rangers from commonsenseaudio which _do_ have whizzer cones. I suspect they are hand-picked parts from a chinese manufacturer. Apart from not going above 18 kHz, they are more than decent. I always thought of the whizzer cone as a kind of _mechanical_ crossover, does that make sense?
They use the exact same factory crossover from the factory. The only difference between the RP-280F and the RP-8000F other than cosmetic is the 8000F tweeter is vented but still very similar to the 280F tweeter.
I noticed when too close to the speakers, there is no mid. After setting the speakers up correctly, with enough distance to the speakers, midrange is there. It's just where the high and bass find each other. That is not on 1 meter from the speaker.
The 1 meter measurements and vertical off axis measurements are made to see what the speaker is actually doing and in this case it shows obvious problems. And there is a time domain issue here. However, if instead of fixing the speakers you would rather fix the listener, then please listen with your ear at the floor level. At that level the time arrival of the tweeter verses the woofers will be closer to being in phase and the hole caused by the out of phase cancellation will be nearly gone.
Just when i was FINALLY done researching and ready to pull the trigger on a pair of RP-8000F, this video had to pop up. Being able to stand up and move is quite important to me. Don't know what to do now...
Get a pair of used RP-280F for next to nothing, sounds just as good. I guess this kit fits that speaker too, they are almost identical. Same crossover, woofers and cabinet. Some people have done the upgrade.
I really enjoyed how (generally) informative this was and I always like watching "the world's saddest audiophile" and I say that with endearment. Man is damn busy. But seriously, I watched this whole thing and you said, "shoot me an email or call me". No email or phone number displayed. I'm assuming that this is a small business and he doesn't want to get inundated? Also, kit is $350 but we don't know if that's each or pair, I don't remember that mentioned. Thank you for working with the kids, that's awesome.
@@kgbcorvette I bet these were pricey to get over there, huh? The speakers do good but there seems like a phase issue. I think the 280f aren't as dipped as the 8000f, so I think it could help the 280f but will probably over compensate the mid-range. The tweeter was changed but only a slight difference.
So, if you don’t already own these speakers, is money better spent somewhere else when factoring their cost and this upgrade? ($1300 or so for a pair including this upgrade.)
Because of these videos, I'm not even going to look at these towers anymore! I had rf82II's and sold them for some usedForte's and did the same with some other towers for some used Heresy speakers. I think these older models get around the issues he's talking about by having a three-way design which makes the acoustic center much much closer. The woofer crosses around 700hz. Now, I'm looking at the RP600m with his upgrades as I think that would be a much better economical choice. I run all my speakers with a sub anyway so don't need the extra bass from the larger cabinet and woofer (which it sounds like do more harm in these models than good).
@@mwahlert Because of their rave review? Notice there aren't any measurements. Also the more you get into this the more you realize you hear the room more than any speaker. With this knowledge, you can treat the crap out of your room and optimize positioning (in most cases most people can't treat an entire room and only have so many options for placement.) Or you can buy speakers with the best response you can find, really concentrating on the off-axis response because your untreated room is going to have a lot of reflections. You'd be better off with those reflections sounding as much like the original source as possible. But, Alas, I am a novice and the more I learn the more I realize I have NO CLUE!
Looks like I missed the second page which has some measurements. Perhaps it's the 1/12 smoothing (I'm not sure how GR smooths his graphs). Here's a discussion about this very topic with some measurements confirming GR research measurements. www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/video-speaker-measurements-by-danny-richie.8840/page-2
I used to have a set of RF-83's... same two way design but w/ 3 8" woofers and a 1.75" diaphragm tweeter. My question is about the acoustic center you mentioned. It would seem as though that problem would be even worse with the 83's w/ the center of the 3 woofers being lower than the center of the 2 woofers in the 8000f's.... Is that true, or am I confused? weird if that is the case because the rf-83's were incredible sounding speakers. Spent the last year looking for a decent used set... now considering rf-7 III's or La Scala's as well. Appreciate info or help! Best Regards
Thanks Danny for the honest measurements. I noticed these 8000’s missing something immediately. I did what any normal person would do, increased the power and pulled them away from the wall. Not much of a difference. So I did a little more research and learned just more Chinese junk.
Saw your comment Michael, was curious as to what your research may have showed that were deficiencies in the speaker. I’ve heard some excellent reviews on it so I was just wondering if you could tell me more on the flipside. Thanks.
@@davids4795 I added more power, a crown xls 2002, they were clipping my Marantz. And I changed the crossover to 80htz, and pulled them away from the wall about 4 inches, they are rear ported, not ideal for my set up. For the money I think they are a good speaker. To me they were falling short when in 2 channel mode. Much better now. And I'm anti china. So when I learned that's where an american company, founded in Arkansas submitted to china's slave labor, it kinda pissed me off.
Did you tried the right one I heard you say 6inch woofers,I thought the RP 8000f have 8inch woofers or maybe I'm wrong,if I learned one thing on these channels is that no one is on the same page ,I just watched a video the host was saying a hole like that one is on the svs pincle he says that it's like there is a driver missing now these svs speakers they say they are good too
Looking for more evidence that this really works, hard to find. I’m running them on a old but cherry SAE system and the sound is fantastic........keeping it 💯
Dick Trickle please have a look at the following review on both standard and upgraded. Be sure to use some good headphones. When I listened at the beginning of the demo sounds of these, it was easy to tell which was the updraded speaker. czcams.com/video/9JP4OINiQ14/video.html&ab_channel=NewRecordDay
I just want to state I have the RP-8000F and just want to say I tested my speakers at 1m like he did and it showed the same hole he showed. I then tested the speakers at 3m which is my listening distance in my home theatre in all 3 front row seats and that same hole was gone. So if you do listen to these speakers at 1m then I agree there is an issue. I just don't want people that might use these at a greater distance to rule them out because of this video, because, in my opinion, they are great for home theatre use and don't need the "upgrade" at that distance.
Thank you for the clarification! I was freaking out from this video, because I just bought them with my hard earned money, but now I calmed down a bit.
@@tonezou3918 Did you like the sound before watching this video? If yes you shouldn't even worry about it. Remember these speakers are for you to enjoy!
@@W4YN0T Yes, I did like it. Sound stage and warmness could be slightly more perfect, but they sound great to me!
@@tonezou3918 There you go, that's all that matters :)
@@tonezou3918 hope you didnt buy them brand new…
I just completed this upgrade on my 280fs after thinking about it for some time. As mentioned before, it shares the same OEM crossover as the 8000F.
This kit is a good amount of work and you will need to give yourself some time, but it rewards you greatly in the end. Good for us hobbyists. It WILL make this a better tower speaker. If you are an audioholic, the difference is big. It brings out the mids, takes the uncomfortable peak off the tweeter, especially when you turn things up, but it does not take away from the detail or clarity of it. Instead it tames it. Holding my ear up to the two woofers I can tell that the bottom woofer now only plays the lows and the top woofer plays mid range.
If you bought this tower and it did not sound as good as you thought it would, this fixes that feeling. You will hear instruments, voices, and other significant details in your music that were left out before. Very pleased with this upgrade.
Did you notice a loss in sparkle from cymbals before the upgrade? And if so did they come back? To me it seems that part of the range is muted slightly as the graph shows. What size board for the crossover? Thanks.
I just completed the upgrade kit for my Klipsch RP 8000F's and am blown away by the difference it made! I already thought they sounded good but decided after watching this channel for a while to take the dive and do the upgrade! Danny makes the kit really easy to DYI! So for all the nay sayers and anyone who is skeptical about if parts matter, i am here to tell you that it makes a Huge difference! I can't believe these are even the same speakers! Keep up the good work Danny and thanks for getting everything shipped out quickly!
Update on the upgrade, i am about 40 hours in and everything is really starting to smooth out! The tweeters were a little on the bright side at first but now blend nicely and these speakers have been taken to the next level with this upgrade! I listen to a lot of different music but mostly am a metalhead, especially Thrash Metal! The guitars really pop now! As i said before if you are skeptical don't be! Danny knows what he is talking about! My equipment is as follows, Audio Technica LP 140 XP with an Ortofon 2m Black LVB 250, Project Tube Box Phono Stage with Gold Lion Tubes, Cambridge AXR 100, Audioquest Cables and for digital i use a Brennan B2 run through the built in Dac on the AXR! Thanks again to GR Reseach for the great customer service!
Think it will help my rp8060fa ?
Did you record your upgrade procedures? We want to watch it very much. Or anyone could. Thanks!
It has two 8 inch woofers.
Measure them...
@@barryr.3541 Idiotic comment. Look up the specs on Klipsch's site. They are the RP8000Fs and I have them and yes, they are 8" dual woofer/midranges
They measure 7"
@@quantumdecoherence1289 They measure 7"
@@mcplutt 7" is the cone and surround size, the frame is 8"
Boy. Ive been in a lot of fancy houses with professional systems many times more extensive than my 2500 dollar klipsch setup and id say mine sounds every bit as good for any normal person. Now i will say that im sure there IS a scientific sweer spot or correct sound that can be achievee but I really like the way a klipsch sounds out of the box.
I also have the run of the mill, less expensive r820fs with rp bookshelfs and center and spl120 sub.
Yeah and an EQ will help compensate for any midrange drop. I’ve certainly never noticed it when listening. If anything they seem to have a bump to my ears but everybody hears differently.
I've got to wonder about the 1m measurement also. I doubt many designs (especially horn loaded designs) would have proper driver integration at such a close distance. I've got JBL K2 S9900's and I sit about 9 ft away, and feel like I could be farther, as if it's the first point that they integrate well, but I've got a small house so that's all my room will allow. I'd bet the 1m measurement shows issues, that wouldn't be issues at normal listening distances. I get your points about not measuring the room response though as well, and why you keep the mic close. Also, I've watched several movies on an RP-8000F Atmos system, that was rebuilt with your crossovers and it did sound great, so I'm not knocking your design, just interested in the effects that the close mic placement might be having on your measurements. Incidentally, I have stood in the Klipsch anechoic chamber with it sealed up. I could hear people talking outside the room, so the door seal wasn't exactly perfect. I also think that Klipsch purposefully designs a dip sometimes between drivers to make them sound more "Detailed". I believe they actually told me that. So take that for what it's worth. I'm a midrange guy, so I don't want any dips in my mids.
I used to own a pair of RF62. A similar model. Never measured anything but I liked the way they sounded. One really wants to follow positioning recommendations like putting them away 0.8 m from side and rear wall and turn em in a little to listener's chair.
With this big of a waveguide for the tweeter, they should have designed it with a d'appolito arrangement. That way the accoustic center would be much more manageable.
I owe Danny an apology; after he did this review I got a bad case of "don't bash my speaker" and disagreed with him. Sometime after that, I came to realize that my RP-8000s sounded terrible for music, and ended up going to Emotiva. I moved the 8000s to my shop where they sat for quite awhile, then I bought Danny's kit, built the crossovers and did the modifications. The result is a wonderfully balances speaker that I love listening to. Is it for everyone? Probably not, most people probably don't have the skills to build the crossover and do the mods. And frankly, they might be better off to just sell the speakers and buy some that don't suck. But me being the tinkerer I am, I did the mods, and I'm thrilled with how these speakers I once hated now sound.
I just finish to fix my Klipsch rp280 with your upgrade n I'm very very satisfied the result is so good thank you very much Gene
did you upgrade with this kit for the 8000F ? Cause I am looking for an upgrade for the RP-280F that I have but its not on their website!
I got the rp 5000f , love them, But great stuff here. You don't deserve the bs people are giving here.
Great idea you have looking at pre made speakers, and see how they can be improved.
I am a bit pissed that klipsch has such a thing in there and it isn't fixed a bit more.
But i am not a hardcore audiophile and love how they sound. Although i dont know muchh better, my previous ones where wharfedales.
Hope klipsch will see this video and fix it to some extend. Keep doing what you are doing. Cheers.
That 'before' response curve would make Klipsch's spec sheet a total lie by a very large margin. Kinda hard to believe but not impossible I suppose. Just seems extraordinary that they would let them go like that.
R may have spoken woofer size being incorrect but he knows speaker technology and his systems sing well above their cost.
Yeah I agree not talking bad about this guy very intelligent knows what he's doing but the RP 8000 f they have 8 in drivers. ✌️
One bad review based on measurements, not listening, and so many people are ready to crucify this speaker. If the measured hole was a problem, Best Buy would not be running out of the model nationally. Or is the fact that Best Buy sells it proof that the 8000 is not a serious audiophile speaker?
There is no doubt that most speakers can be improved with better parts. Would the SQ difference be significant? Would we be willing to pay a higher price?
I have no doubt Danny is honest in his assessment. I am an avid live concert goer and also have no doubt that what the RP-8000F offers is a pretty realistic presentation of well-recorded live performances.
I could have sworn Best Buy sells the Refernece line and not the Reference Premier line? I like the sound of my rp160s, they ain't half bad. I would love to hear one of Danny's designs in person!
Plus I have to ask how did he measure these? What method was used.
If there is an audible improvement I would go for it. I wish I could find reviews about this mod. Until then I remain skeptical. I see the gap in the middle range but I'm not sure how it translates into the listening experience. I've ordered these speakers and hopefully they will arrive in a week.
how is it now?
is it great?
@@hahdanghongha7810 They sound about as clear as my old B&W 805s but bigger, more spacious. It still needs some more time to break in. At this point I'm 90% sure that I'll keep them. I have a subwoofer but I don't feel the need to use it with these speakers. However I'm not a huge fan of how they look.
@@elduderino1329 I'm considering the same speakers. Any update yet? Is the hole in the middle frequencies disturbing when listening to music?
@@gejdfr05 I have a set and they sound wonderful to me....I don't think they were design to be flat, they have color like all Klip's...it about the music not the freq, respond at X range, they have the classic Big Klips sound
@@level600a Utimately, it ends up being about personal preference. I'm looking for speakers with a flat responce. I think Klipsch look ugly (those copper colored cones) and sound shouty and boomy. No doubt some are 'better' than others but I've yet to hear any I liked.
Never let a graph tell you what you enjoy. Home theater is meant yo be fun. I bet of this guy’s customers never even knew they didn’t like their speakers until they saw this.
Not true. I found this video while googling Klipsch rp8000f dip in upper midrange
I really like your business model, offering well designed kits to improve speakers we already own. Interesting to listen to you as well. It probably would help your sales to have a web page with a list of all the speakers you have designed with the kit price listed and being able to add that to a cart and order it right on the site. I am also curious to know if you have any recommendations of great value for the money speakers that sound great with your upgrades.
The business model is genius. He "upgrades" the most commonly bought brand in the US, in the most common price range that would include consumers that would likely purchase the kit. He clearly knows what hes talking about and displays the information clearly.
The flip side to this is that after watching 100s of videos and reviews about certain Klipsch speakers that would give them a "worth buying" rating, this man can make me change my opinion on buying entirely. Its frusterating to be honest. He presents the data and there is no arguing about it. He is correct. Without any context on cost or comparisons to other speakers in the same range, by the end of the video your left with the idea that the speaker is shit UNLESS you pay an additional 350 for kit. In which case, then you would be in an entirely different price category.
Overall i appreciate the info. BUT I am not buying the 8000s and the overwhelming factor being this video. In turn i will not be buying a kit from you either.
I dont expect you to lie about the numbers but i suggest you find another sub $1000 tower or $300 bookshelf and pick it apart just the same and i that point, I a consumer, can look at both and make a purchase I feel good about and THEN i can go "Maybe now lets see what the kit can do?" OR lets see what he says about the $1350 step up and maybe i just buy that?
Hello GR-Research, your video had me curious as i was on the fence of buying these speakers a while ago. Since I'm not an audio expert, i figured the best way to validate your claims about the flaws of this speaker would be to reach out to Klipsch's support and allow them to counter your arguments. Finally, one month later i receive a reply and guess what the say?
"I suggest disregarding that video. The RP-8000F are great speakers!" ...
No. Klipsch will defend their under-engineered mid-fi products. Never go by a manufacturers claims. I've modded Klipsch for 20 years with Bob Crites and later GR research methods. The mods radically improved the speakers in a quantifiable, measurable way. DO NOT let anyone tell you factory klipsch are perfect as is. They are mid-fi....period.
They sound very convincing. Ha, ha, ha...
@@dannyrichie9743 You sound convincing too! You put up a video trying to prove how bad these speakers are then turn around and develop a fix for $350. Everything boils down to the almighty dollar!
@@Losttouchjs You want the fix for free?
Everyone on the klipsch Facebook page hates you for this, im trying to explain to them that you do a good service and weren't bashing klipsch and that you know what you are talking about but I am not articulate enough to defend you, can you make a a video explaining how you started and how you are helping the average consumer. Please I love your video and I want to stand up for you!
Thank you.
I haven’t seen that speaker measure that bad anywhere else
I have had a LOT of people confirm the same measurements. So I did not get an odd one.
Well if you measure the speaker, then zoom out the flawed part, then it will also look really bad.
I can show you the measurements from a German audio magazine. The results are nearly the same.
@@vincentobrien5939 Link please.
A simple survey by Danny of the satisfaction of his customers with the mod would give us valuable information. If I was Danny, that's what I would do. Saying A LOT means nothing.
Interesting....A LOT of reviews on this particular speaker are positive, including one from the guys at Audioholics. In fact, this is the first negative review I’ve seen on them. Who do I trust, the one guy who doesn’t even know the size of the woofers who says the design is broken and he “fixed” it or everyone else?
He's approaching it from an electrical engineer / audiophile perspective which may or may not be what everyone wants. All he was trying to do was to create a flat response output which is what audiophiles desire but may not sound the most pleasant depending on what type of music you listen to.
Many "popular" speakers/headphones are focused on creating "happy face waveforms" where there is a peak on the bottom and high and drop in the mid which is EXACTLY what Klipsch did here because many people want lots of bass and treble but don't care as much on the mid. He's basically boosting the mid with his upgraded circuit which may not sound as pleasant DEPENDING on the music content. Probably sounds AMAZING for classical but maybe not so great for rock/hip-hop/electronic.
@@Jedi2155 - Yup. Most folks have an EQ or some kind of room correction and you can adjust that if the sound is not to your liking.
@@Jedi2155 you're completely right so not trying to bash. Just this speaker isn't anything close to the "happy face" this is just a completely wrong design from Klipsh. I've designed a few speakers myself and tried flat and smily responses en found I enjoy flat ish with a 1 to 2 dB drop from 200 orso Hz to the top end.
@@Jedi2155 You are 500 percent right.All Klipsch reference speakers Danny tests have the same response.Klipsch wants these speakers to sound like the bass and treble controls on the amplifier are turned up, and that sound is immensely popular as are the speakers.I used to up the same controls when I got into hi fi in the 1970's.Klipsch has killed two birds with one stone, got the sound they want while saving money on a lousy crossover.It is surprising how many self styled audiophile reviewers worship these speakers.Danny has done the right thing by flattening the frequency response, addressing the phase anomalies and improving the spectral plot.Now if one wants to alter the response to the bass up- treble up shape use an equaliser .I am sure details,imaging the soundstage will still be better thanbefore.
I just ordered the kit. I hear (or actually don't hear) the hole. It's real. I want more mids.
Does it bother anyone else that this guys doesn't know the RP-8000F has 8 inch woofers?
I'm not that bothered by it. Half the time I call my kids by the wrong name.
What is interesting is not hearing from more people who have done the modification on their speakers and want to tell about their experience with it.
@@armandorancano6415 I hear from them every day.
@@dannyrichie9743 Danny, I'm someone who has replaced stock crossover parts on Magnepans and know the amazing improvement just doing that can bring about. I don't doubt your mod can have a positive impact on the 8000 SQ.
However, to gain credibility it's not enough that you talk about what other people say to you privately. Those folks should be able to share their stories with the rest of us who contemplate an improvement. Maybe I've missed some reading, but people who feel good about something are typically very eager to share their experience directly.
Exactly!
I have read other reviews on this speaker and they rate it very well. I don't understand why your review is so much different. Thanks for a different point of view.
I can't speak for anyone else. I try to just shoot straight and tell it like it is. The response issues have been confirmed by others as well. There is certainly a hole in the response. There is a time domain issue there too. Cabinets are lightly made and need No Rez badly. The parts quality on them was very poor. They were kind of a disaster. I am not really sure how anyone else would thing otherwise.
So i bought these 2 months ago and have them hooked up to a good receiver a nice dac nd a beautiful amp and i have the speakers about 2 feet from the wall and let me tell you nothing but perfection. The sound is great its everything i wanted without messing with anything. Just use some good front end components and you will not be disappointed. If you use poor components then you'll get poor sound. But for me no problems and too buy anything else would be a waste of my money.
If you are happy at level one then stay there.
One day you will wake up wondering if they actually could be improved :-)
@@dannyrichie9743 Wow. That was actually a dick thing to say.
I've read another review on the 8000f from audioholics who did frequency response testing. Their charts show the speakers to be almost completely neutral throughout the entire range. Very different than this measurement with such a massive dip in the midrange. Just curious to understand how they can have such different results?
I saw that one also, because I have the older model RP 280f's. Very disappointed in your measurements compared to Audioholics measurements on RP8000f. Why such a difference in measurements ?
The reviewer at Audioholics confirmed that he was able to get the same measurements as well, but they choose not to publish them showing the dipped area.
@@dannyrichie9743 I figure you can make any speaker show a different frequency response depending on the room and equipment it's tested with. The audioholics guys show their test was done outdoors to eliminate echo since they don't have an anechoic room. I guess my main point is how do we know who's right, and whether or not these modifications will actually work for us?
@@richelh First of all, my measurements use a gated time window. So there are no room reflections or echo in the response. And the reviewer reported (on the discussion here on CZcams) that he was able to get those same measurements. There is no he's right or I'm right. The measurements can both be an accurate representation from the point they were measured from. I could have moved out further away and below tweeter axis where the drivers time arrival was a little better, but to find an ideal response is not the point. It is to get an overview of the response on axis and off axis as to have a better idea of what the room response will be, how the time arrival of the drivers are, and how that will effect the imagining and sound stage. And in this case the drivers were not reaching one another in range or phase. And they had an uneven response on and off axis. There is no debate of that. It's a fact. And the modifications are a HUGE improvement. Not only are all of those areas addressed and significantly improved, but the quality of the parts is a HUGE improvement as well. The performance jump across the board takes them WAY beyond where they were from the factory, and those that have already implemented the upgrade confirm that as well.
Thanks for making the kit available. Your kit improved my RP8000F's so much!
i just ordered these friday. i seen many reviews from audiophiles that had positive reviews, the only gripes is, large and heavy.
Can you let me know that is improving on rp-8000f ?
@@lamluu6822 hi, i didnt have those mods done to mine, they are factory stock n sound great
So you don’t have as your own, how can you know that sound great ? Please help me an ideal ! Thank you very much and have a good weekend
And how can I order that kit ?
@@lamluu6822 go to the webshop
The measurements of my Klipsch 280f look absolutely nothing like that. It's within 1db up or down from 78 hz to 16 khz and at the extreme ends (below 78 and above 16k) it's 2db over. This is not measuring in an anechoic chamber or even a treated room, just an ordinary 2200 square foot room.
Best speakers I've ever heard with the possible exception of definitive technology. But not even the DT makes sound so lifelike and gives guitar and cymbals the weight of the impeccable Klipsch horn. Truly a masterpiece speaker system. Klipsch speakers with Yamaha gear brings music to life like nothing else I've ever heard. If anyone out there let's these "reviewers" steer them away from Klipsch, they, these so called reviewers, have kept you in the dark tied up mentally and from enjoyment in the audio community snake oil web. Absolutely no one that I've ever heard will ever separate me from Klipsch, not even jbl, elac, buchardt, or definitive technology. I dare say kef, zu, buchardt or triangle wouldn't take their place either.
No way man - most of the Klipsch Reference stuff is missing that midrange. I’ve owned RF- III’s and Forte III’s at the same time. It was night and day. If the RF series didn’t have that suckout around 1khz from the factory, they’d probably be better than the fortes - but with the suckout it’s a mess
@@Sloimerfor one the sound my system creates in definitely not a mess. If yours is I think you need to work on placement.
Next, my question to you is why are none of my room correction equipment giving a huge bump in those frequencies? Plus I hear nothing missing in those frequencies, plus my spl meter doesn't show any disconnect in frequency.
I have wanted to move up to the forte iii or Cornwall for the mid-range because of all the stuff saying the Klipsch's are missing the mid-range but there's no evidence of a sucked out mid-range from my Yamaha or my Denon. But I am admittedly hooked to the Klipsch horn's sound, that's why I'm defending it steadfastly. A huge loss in mid-range like that would be very audibly discernable but my 280f are set to within 1db up or down from neutral from 78 to 16k Hertz. I imagine the only way to get such a sucked out mid-range must come from node cancellations in your room or positioning.
My 600m on the other hand do get a 2.5 db boost in the 2k region. I've seen it anywhere from 1.5 up to 3.5 up depending on where I have it positioned.
One last thing, I've never thought the rf-7 sounded as good as the 280f. I know a lot of people say they do but from what I hear in comparisons, I prefer the 280f.
@@kohnfutner9637 well I’ve done extensive A/B tests and I can tell you the in terms of perceptible sound, there was a great deal of fullness and weight missing from male voice and certain sound effects. Maybe it has to do with the woofer vs horn sound for the 700-1500khz range and crossover point. IDK.
@@Sloimer another question I have is if the rf-7 were so bad and needed so much help, why would you have bought another Klipsch? Are you saying that you like the Klipsch sound so much that you wanted the speaker with the dedicated mid-range? It's hard to understand how you could fathom a fondness for the sound of a brand of speaker if the entire mid-range was fully sucked out as Danny's frequency graph would represent.
@@kohnfutner9637 Ok here goes - I owned the RF-7 II's first, got rid of them, and then went to the Forte III's later. I never had a problem with the RF-7 II's - big, dynamic, bass heavy, and at that point in time I didn't have much of a reference point. When I got the Forte III's - I couldn't put my finger on why I liked them so much and just attributed it to being a more current model. Later I purchased the RF-7 III's, figuring they would be similar to the Forte III's except bigger, and was going to move the Forte III's to my office. Well, right off the bat, when I started playing Doom Eternal on the RF-7 III's, I noticed they were louder, but some of the sound effects seemed very recessed. Male voices sounded thin and I didn't feel any resonance in my chest from firing some of the weapons. So I brought the Forte III's back and did the A/B test and did some research on frequency range and what falls into which parts of the spectrum, and just as my research would suggest, upon doing the A/B test there was a night and day difference in the presence, weight, and impact of the sound effects in question, and a much more engaging aural experience with the Forte III's.
Also, not sure I understand your logic - there's no such thing as a perfect speaker. Every speaker has to give up SOMETHING to get something else. A speaker can't be mellow and forward at the same time, or have some spice on the top end but also be rolled off. It comes down to preference. Overall, I enjoy the Klipsch sound - they're dynamic and sharp on the top end, but with some specific models there is TOO much distortion (La Scala's and Klipschorn), or they're missing something in the mid-range (all RF speakers). In my opinion, the Forte III and the KLF-20/30's are the only Klipsch speakers I've personally owned that do it all, while retaining the signature dynamics and live quality Klipsch is known for, without it sounding like there's a chainsaw in your ear. Are you suggesting that there is no variation whatsoever between Klipsch speakers and that if I don't like one, that must then mean that I like none of them?
I have a pair of RP-8000Fs and they are my first Klipsch speakers. I bought them mostly due to the mostly positive reviews on CZcams and other sources. At first I was really impressed since I could hear sounds in songs I had never heard before. Then I started to notice that certain types of music sounds dramatically better than others. Classical, certain types of rock like Steely Dan, Pink Floyd etc sounded great. Then I started to notice that some types of music didn't sound very good at all like hard rock and heavy metal. There were guitar parts and some vocals that seem to be missing in certain ranges. If I wasn't very familiar with the music I may not have noticed but it started to bother me and I found myself only listening to music that sounded the best with the speakers. Then I watched this video a while ago and It seemed like he hit the nail on the head. I think that range where the drop off is is the range that is missing and bothers me. I am considering doing the upgrade but I just don't know about pulling apart my $ 1500 set of speakers and messing around with them. Especially if I mess them up my wife would never let me live it down.
Damn $1500 speakers with the same weakness, what a shame.
You could do it. Perhaps build the crossovers first, then that "hard part" is done.
Why is GR-research having to fix these speakers, it should be the manufacture doing this? What’s wrong with this picture? Selling speakers that can be fix to sound right is not the costumers responsibility. We are not Klipsch’s R&D team or their beta testing monkeys. Apparently the person who is supposed to be listening to the speakers before sales at Klipsch is not doing their job.
these are the made in china grade Klipsch
@@everss02 What´s your point? They are made in China, after they have been designed in USA by Klipsch. The Chinese factory will make them as Klipsch will tell them to.
They are built to a pricepoint, if they shipped with all the upgrades in them they wouldn't be the price they would be more expensive. Now Klipsch could have designed a crossover with more flat response, but that ain't their style.
@@MTBD80 This is garbage. You can still use the cheap parts with correct values that will give you a similar response to GR Research design at no extra cost. This is poor design. Plain and simple.
@@everss02 so is an iphone. Or certain boeing composite wing components. This is a design problem, not a manufacturing problem.
I have a set of Ref. IV RF-82, RC-62, RS-52 and I love the towers for critical stereo listening and as well, movies.. but, my center seems to have a fault in the x-over. It rings ear-piercingly so at certain voice tones.
I ordered a set of RP-504c II and RP-8000f II so I would like to entertain these fixes for my center, and might as well match the towers as well.
I will try to upload some findings to my channel. Thanks for all the years of efforts Danny. I finally have a valid case to try this out.
curious about doing this to mine, but honestly they sound very good to me. I dont notice any dip or null in sound at all. But i also do a room correction and have subs. As a honest businessman, is this really worth it? Am i going to be "wowed"?? i was pretty wowed and still am listening to these speakers
It seems like he's just trying to sell kits that you don't even need. The only guy that actually bought it and installed the x over said it barely made an improvement
If you own these speakers you NEED this upgrade. Without it they are a disaster. And I actually I get reports from our customers regarding this upgrade that are overwhelming positive and they are very grateful.
@@dannyrichie9743 Is there any way to read their reviews? I could find only two. One said the difference is huge' the other said there is no noticeable difference. I'm really interested.
@@elduderino1329 Anyone that said there was no noticeable difference didn't implement this upgrade. And you can find feedback in our forum at the Audio Circle.
@@dannyrichie9743 Characterizing a device as a disaster is name calling and strong evidence that the allegation is not true. No "disaster" is as popular among both reviewers and customers as the RP-8000F. Measurements, like statistics, can be manipulated. As such a very popular speaker, it is a prime target for seeds that it can be improved. It may very well have that potential but all the evidence requested by commenters here that would make the claim credible has not been forthcoming.
@@armandorancano6415 Measurement have not been manipulated and they match measurements taken by many others. And drivers out of phase in the crossover region, a deep hole in the response, a tweeter playing louder than the other drivers, further cancellation in the vertical off axis, and significant cabinet wall resonances certainly add up to a disaster in my book. Add in bottom of the barrel parts quality, wiring, and connectors and it is about as bad as it gets. And the upgrade has been reviewed in various places all over the Internet resulting in a lot of orders and very happen customers.
Thanks for these very informative videos. I don't understand why there is so much hate in the comments.
Great information as always Danny and thanks!
very very educational material right there ...thank you
How to improve your listening experience with klipsch: Sell them and get better speakers. I am done with those tinnitus-factory horns. What they have in transient attack is lost in detail /nuance and dimension. They are mid-fi speakers ok for HT. They don't "reveal" they exaggerate. I sold off my Klipsch reference and am never looking back. FWIW: I did the GR research mods. The mods greatly improved on the crappy factory crossover and poor engineering. Still, the speakers have that nasty titanium tweeter. Ever use Klipsch nearfield? It's painful.
I totally agree with you on that. I also chose the German Canton Vento 896DC, which are much more balanced, especially when listening to classical music.
Danny, thanks so much for this. Yes, you really can’t sensibly do a 2 Way tweeter/woofer/woofer. Only woofer/tweeter/woofer for coincident sound. Curious to know if you found any breakup modes on the midwoofer. Metal cones love to ring don’t they. I see you didn’t implement an LCR notch filter like you did for rp600m stand mounted. What crossover freq are you using in kit and what are slopes? Thanks, keep up the great work.
Yes, those woofers have a hell of a peak up top that rings like a bell. They needed an aggressive notch filter on them to kill it.
See measured responses: gr-research.com/Klipsch/klipsch%20RP-8000%20crossover.jpg
Is there a simple list on your website of all the speakers you have upgraded?
I'm beginning to wonder if Klipsch is on to something here. Seems that a lot of their speakers that Danny look at have the V shape dip in response curve. I don't know about you, but ever since I was a kid whenever I get my hands on a stereo that has an equalizer I always set the EQ to look just like a V curve, we love to turn up the bass and treble and tune down the mids.
If it was intentional then we would just see it as an amplitude variation. Unfortunately it was caused from drivers not being in phase as well. No one does that on purpose.
A "BBC dip" is very different in shape as they are intentional.
The cymbals have no sparkle at all. Noticed it from the beginning. The rest of the spectrum sounds phenomenal though.
I have a pair of the RP6000f. I personally think they sound good but this is my first set of floor standing speakers.
I have the RP-5000f and they sound Amazing, I bet your sound Amazing to. so you can leave it there. The stock Klipsch are still Really Good speakers and the Cross over are still Very good and better than most speakers out there. the Tweeter are Amazing (I still turn down the treble a lot) and they look Amazing and they Rock out. (stock)
But all speaker can be improved and if you go into Danny level than your in the Big leagues and he will rip a part any speakers & He also can take your speakers into another level. it appears that the farther away the lower woofer is from the tweether the bigger the gap is. And all the RP- have this gap between the woofer and tweeter, including mine I measured it.
IYO I have the RF-35 and RF-82II and they sound Muddy we all know about the tweeters to bright.Why did the smaller RF-42II Sound so good the the Bigger ones sound so Muddy?
I haven't worked on those models.
I was going to ask if ended up with a 2.5 way so thanks for answering that in the first 5 minutes
This is just almost unbelievable that Klipsh failed so miserably im their design. We might have expectations from Radio Shack, but typically their speakers sound much better this. Disappointing to hear. I think this speaker should have been designed a MTM configuration. Always appreciate Danny's remediations and taking time to explain in details...
I tried prototyping this crossover and wasn't that impressed with the results (I managed to find the schematic from pictures posted on the internet).
I just did one speaker and put side by side with the original playing a mono track. Using the balance control I could easily switch between the two speakers and the GR-Research one lost its life and energy. It didn't sound like a Klipsch speaker to my ears,. it sounded like just another tower - you pick the brand. I remember when I bought the Klipsch from the dealer they had all the Klipsch range lined up with a B&W tower thrown in . Using remote switching you could switch between speakers and when the B&W was selected you could hear the difference. The B&W sounded lifeless, less engaging in comparison. The GR-Research modified Klipsch reminded me of the B&W!
As mentioned by other comments that dip goes once you get to 2 metres or more away from the speaker. I did measure the GR-Research speaker and the frequency response was pretty flat at 1 meter as shown in the video. But these speakers are not designed for near field listening, they are designed for large rooms for 2 metres or more and in that environment they already sound pretty good as is.
One thing that GR-Research doesn't mention in his videos is the distortion. These speakers measure very well in their original form. But I doubt if they will measure so well with this revised crossover as the tweeter slope drops from a 24dB 4th order to 6dB Ist order in the new design. That means at lower frequency levels a lot more power is going to the tweeter increasing distortion levels as the crossover frequency is quite low @ 1.5Khz. Crank up the volume to really high levels and the tweeters might give up the ghost as a result!
Personally I wouldn't touch it. Yes there are significant improvements to be had by improving the cabinet resonances and using better quality caps and inductors on the crossover (I have done it) but don't use the Gr-Research design. Oh and if the brightness is the thing that annoys you most just increase the tweeter resistor to 4.5 - 5 ohms. An easy change. You don't need to spend 500 bucks to achieve that!
Impressive work, thanks! :)
Anything for the rf72 11 and rc 64 11...they are a tad bit fatiguing. Love the sound but have to us eq in my marantz pre/pro to tame them down...very informative videos and I definitely enjoy each and every one ..I thank you for your time👍
I have this dip on my rp6000f's. I thought the 8000 had 8" drivers.
I hope someone sends in my model. Shipping is a fortune. I wish I found this information sooner. I would've went with the open baffle flat packs for the static x and x voce.
I just ordered the rp504c upgrade. Thats a great speaker, but I need to get the mains done...somehow, some way
The 8000f does have dual 8" drivers. He was just mistaken, from memory
I thought it was my imagination when it sounded like the music was softer in that exact region.
Someone please send him some R-820Fs!
Yes please I also have a set of R-820F and live in South Africa can't send them to him to test. Might never see them again with Covid going around and our corruption.
How is it that not one reviewer in the whole world, picked up on this big hole in the response? They all have ears, some even have audiophile ears...LOL!! Is this something not easily heard, unless you have tons of experience with different speakers?
Curious, how is power handling effected and a video showing the install would be helpful... Thanks
Power handling is not effected. I did do a step by step on the RP600M. The steps are all the same, just the circuit is different.
What speakers 🔊 out of the box would you recommend for the best highs, mids, and lows? I want to make the purchase and never look back to regret it.
If he told you that, he couldn’t sell you an upgrade kit, with a bonus bottle of snake oil.
It will be great to do a sound demo before and after the upgrade.
Ron Brenay did that with the RP-600M model.
Have a pair of Danny's X-LS Encore's to replace a set of Klipsch RP-150M and Canton's (...both I like very much). The X-LS, after kit completion with all the cap upgrades sound phenomenal.
Are you talking about the RP6000f or RP8000f as Rp 8000f is 8”
RP8000F
While this sounds legit, and this guy clearly knows a lot, I just cant hear this. I just demo'd B&W 603 vs Klipsch rf8000 and I liked the Klipsch better in virtually all aspects. Great value in my opinion. I was at 2.5 meters. Can we see the data from a trusted source that is NOT selling a product?
Yes, check out czcams.com/video/4FmAmlsAa-o/video.html
This is Audioholics review of several tower speakers. Their measurements of the Klipsch are at 30:25 mark. They have the same shape as the curve Danny is showing, but the 10 dB swing at 1,70 Hz does not occur until about 30 deg off-axis, while I think Danny is saying his measurement was that large on-axis.
Any kit for Klipsch R 820F ?
Have a full set of Aperion Audio 6T's from 2007, finally blew a driver - bought the Klipsch RP-8000F in a piano black finish to replace my towers - was instantly dissapointed as the busted aperion still sounded better than these, I couldn't quite nail it down but the vocals and midrange just sounded 10x clearer on the aperions. I was about to return them via amazon, then came across this video - it makes PERFECT sense, I grabbed a set of cheap bookshelf speakers I got free with a DAC and plugged them in on top of the towers - immediately fixed the issue of the 1khz dropoff and they sound absolutely amazing now. I don't think you have to buy the crossover kit, if you just put a bookshelf on top to fill in that void it fixes everything.
I don't know whether such a modification is desirable. A B&W speaker had such a dip, but a reviewer in Audioholic said he could not hear the dip. Correcting the dip in that B&W speaker to a flat curve in one type of measurement will result in emphasized mid in real world domestic listening.
First rule of audio, you can't hear what isn't there. 😉
B&W is known for their odd frequency response, it helps them sell, but it's not uncommon for people to remodel the crossover for day to day listening. 🙂
@@PSA78 I think the reviewer at Audioholic has much experience with non-B&W speakers and live music.
@@PSA78 There are many ways to scientifically talk about "what isn't there" and "what is there." We cannot say that one type of measurement to be the perfect, absolute, and universal representation of the reality. Big companies like Dynauio, B&W, and Focal have better measuring tools and environments than a youtuber, even if the youtuber is quite special to own an expensive(expensive to a person, but cheap to a big speaker company) Klippel system.
@@azzinny It's not that complicated to measure a frequency response, and if the changes shows up as well as can be heard it's pretty clear. The problem is at low frequencies.
B&W is known to have a very forward presence usually, but with some tweaks they do sound good. It comes down to what the purpose of the speakers are and to a degree how they will be placed, and naturally personal preferences.
@@PSA78 The dip in the measured curve and the inaudibility of the dip is not completely within the B&W house sound you mention. You seem to be one of those who convince themselves after looing at a graph. You reject the Audioholic reviewer by your belief that one frequency response curve says all about the speaker: anyone who says differently from your belief from the curve (not from your listening - you will never need listening as you just see a curve) is a fool or a crook. There are people who think differently from you.
Just my 2cents, you should throw a link up to this kit you mention, also it would be nice to see how you installed the new kit. I want to buy the piano black version the last thing I want to do is ruin the finish. It would also help a novice like me understand how big the lift is on your 400.00 kit.
I just ordered 2 RP-280F front drivers as well as 1 RP-504C Center and 2 RP -502s Surrounds. They have not arrived yet, should be by Mon Nov 2 2020. Are there issues with these that you know of?
The RP-8000F's have 8" woofers, the RP-6000F's have 6.5"s... just saying. Did you measure at 1 meter? Very interesting video.
Is the price for each speaker or for the pair?
Would love to see before and after schematics…
Correction, two 8 " woofers
Yes, they are listed as 8" woofers. Thanks,
But they measure 7", just like my 10" woofers that measures 9".
ok guys, one reply is missing here, that of the Klipsch manufaturer or did they send out a statement on this potential issue? When I see the measurement results of Danny and Audioholics I am eagerly waiting for other independent labs to do a measurement :)
My measurements have been confirm by numerous people. And the guy that did the Audioholics review said he was able to get the same measurements if he measured the same way I did. He just choose to show measurements that were taken in a way that hid the issues.
Do you brace the cabinet and treat with no-res before measuring the speaker and redesigning the crossover? Or is the no-res and bracing another step to be done that's somewhat independent of the crossover upgrade?
No Rez or bracing can be done independently of the crossover upgrade.
You broke down a whole scene of this speakers in high hz
So you don’t ever say the important part how did to fix that big hole in the midrange ? You probably increased the output of the woofer ?
Have you evaluated the SVS Prime Pinnacle yet? Just ran across your site, nice job and would appreciate your thoughts on the SVS Prime Pinnacles.
I am working on some of their Ultra models now.
Hi Danny I’ve only just stumbled onto this clip. So basically all I need to do is buy a seperate law pass filter for the bottom woofer. If I was to do that I’d probably just buy new crossovers for all 3. What would you recommend the ranges to be re frequencies. Awesome work
You'll need more than a new bottom woofer network. I've made this one as easy as I can. Just buy the upgrade kit.
What are the crossover points for the new 2.5 way crossover? 500 & 1,500hz?
First of all the drivers are 8" not 6.5". Secondly you measure at 1 meter. Nobody listens to music at 1 meter. Great range if one wants to measure sensitivity. Most people listen at 3 to 4 meters. At that distance their is no hole. I would kindly suggest you re-test at 3 meters (real world listening distance) and you will see)hear no hole. The speakers don't need any further upward tilt either. Toe in is dependent on distance as such this is variable.
Just throwing this out there, but I can't be the only one that sees the resemblance between the model number and "ripoff"
Please someone send him a rp6000f, you would be doing us all a favor. Someone in Texas. I'm over here thinking about active crossovers...its all too much! I need a kit like this for the rp6000f which measures the same way. Same goes for rp404c having problems like the rp504c does. I knew getting the less popular models would come back to haunt me, but these are just perfect for my setup and my use-case, so I don't regret not going with the 8000 and 504. I want to do all 3, but shipping plus cost...its a lot! These cabinets are in desperate need of no-rez. The center is built well, but the mains sound hollow. Flatten out the response around the crossover point and put some norez on the inside and these speakers would play well above their price.
Will this work on the older Klipsch RP280f speakers and what does this kit cost.
I purchased this RP-8000F kit for my pair of RP-280Fs. The Klipsch crossover is the same for these as well as the RP-8060FA as all three are nearly identical acoustically (the upfiring height speaker on top of the 8060 has its own crossover). There is a slight difference in the tweeter between the 280 and the others as the two newer models have a vented tweeter. Other than that, the woofer drivers and cabinet are the same except for a few mostly cosmetic details on the cabinets.
So I finished one speaker and then did side-by-side comparisons between the stock 280F and modified 280F. The difference is not subtle. I would go so far as to say the modded RP-280F sounds less like a Klipsch speaker now! In all loving kindness and respect to Paul W Klipsch, sometimes Klipsch speakers are just unbearably bright. This upgrade tones down that fatiguing glare significantly and adds balance to the tweeter output with no loss of detail. The bass is tighter and the upper midrange is smoother especially on female vocals. Just seems to be overall a less "shouty" speaker and somewhat subdued, in a good way. It sounds like a much more expensive speaker now - does that make sense? I am rather pleased with the new sound and starting to take apart the other speaker to finish this project. I am taking my time and care with this while still "working" from home and it took me several days to do the first speaker. Everything you need is included except for mdf board. It helped me to watch the RP-600 crossover upgrade videos as you can see the entire process demoed and explained. The only instructions provided with the kit was a simple schematic so you are on your own. Take your time scraping out all the fiberfill glued to the inside walls but save it to stuff back in after norez is installed. The crossover part quality is top notch. I mounted the new crossover mdf board onto the vertical braces with screws and hot glue. This board is heavy with several pounds of copper from three large inductors. The original crossover was simply screwed on to the back of the small speaker terminal post insert under the port.
Two things I did differently, although the impact is probably minimal and maybe insignificant. I carefully added little pieces of dynamat extreme to only cover the outside of the upper woofer basket spokes as these are stamped steel frames that can ring a bit. Also, I bi-amped with an extra pair of tube connectors simply because there were two extra unused amp channels on the 7.1 receiver for this 5.1 system. I think removing the inductive circuit of the woofers from the output stage of the amp in the receiver driving the tweeter is a good thing and having extra copper (two pair of speaker cables and tube connectors) between the amp and the speakers can't hurt. This will not give any more loudness or power but *maybe* a bit more clarity although I did not test that independently. Your mileage may vary and most experts say this is a waste of time on a speaker like this. So call me a rebel...
@@easyrider2020 My plan is to use acrylic sheet for the boards. I have the RP-280F's too.
I would totally get a kit like this for the RP 6000F's. Do you think this one would work for those?
No, that is a different model.
Someone needs to ship a RP-6000f or RP-260f (they use same crossover) to him. Maybe we can crowd fund one those to him!
@@zephxiii Someone did :-)
@@mcplutt aw snaps thanks! Finally!
Toll, dass es Leute gibt, die sagen, was die Lautsprecher sind, und sie nicht so loben, als wüsste man nicht, wie cool die rp8000f sind. Vielleicht ist diese V ok fürs Kino, aber für Stereo eine Katastrophe.
I like the way mine sound at about 10 feet away. I thought they're 8 inch woofers not 6.5
Would you ever test out any _full-range_ speaker drivers? With "whizzer cone" or without, i do not really mind, although I do have a pair of 12" (yes twelve inches) full-rangers from commonsenseaudio which _do_ have whizzer cones. I suspect they are hand-picked parts from a chinese manufacturer. Apart from not going above 18 kHz, they are more than decent. I always thought of the whizzer cone as a kind of _mechanical_ crossover, does that make sense?
This is now a 4 year old video, is it safe to say the newer model RP-8000F II's they have improved this issue?
Do the kit come with detailed instructions on how to upgrade the crossover and install it?
It comes with everything you need minus a small board to mount it all on.
Any chance you will be reviewing the RP-6000F? Do you have a crossover available for the RP-6000F?
I have not worked on that model.
Can this be applied to RP-280FA? It is very much similar to the RP-8000F
They use the exact same factory crossover from the factory. The only difference between the RP-280F and the RP-8000F other than cosmetic is the 8000F tweeter is vented but still very similar to the 280F tweeter.
I have the RP-280F, even more similar.
Actually the woofers are not 6.5", they are 8".
I noticed when too close to the speakers, there is no mid. After setting the speakers up correctly, with enough distance to the speakers, midrange is there. It's just where the high and bass find each other. That is not on 1 meter from the speaker.
The 1 meter measurements and vertical off axis measurements are made to see what the speaker is actually doing and in this case it shows obvious problems. And there is a time domain issue here. However, if instead of fixing the speakers you would rather fix the listener, then please listen with your ear at the floor level. At that level the time arrival of the tweeter verses the woofers will be closer to being in phase and the hole caused by the out of phase cancellation will be nearly gone.
Just when i was FINALLY done researching and ready to pull the trigger on a pair of RP-8000F, this video had to pop up. Being able to stand up and move is quite important to me. Don't know what to do now...
Order the upgrade kit. These are nice speakers for the money and the upgrade kit will take them to the next level!
upgrade these or get rf7iii
Get a pair of used RP-280F for next to nothing, sounds just as good. I guess this kit fits that speaker too, they are almost identical. Same crossover, woofers and cabinet. Some people have done the upgrade.
I really enjoyed how (generally) informative this was and I always like watching "the world's saddest audiophile" and I say that with endearment. Man is damn busy. But seriously, I watched this whole thing and you said, "shoot me an email or call me". No email or phone number displayed. I'm assuming that this is a small business and he doesn't want to get inundated? Also, kit is $350 but we don't know if that's each or pair, I don't remember that mentioned. Thank you for working with the kids, that's awesome.
I assume it ain´t that hard to make 2 clicks and come to his webpage and telephone number?
So will this help with all around or are we just talking surround sound applications only. New to this, but I'd like to have the best sound.
Will this work for the rp 280f? The model right before this one.
I would like to know that too! I cannot ship mine to them cause I'm in Europe, shipping cost would be crazy!
@@kgbcorvette I bet these were pricey to get over there, huh?
The speakers do good but there seems like a phase issue. I think the 280f aren't as dipped as the 8000f, so I think it could help the 280f but will probably over compensate the mid-range.
The tweeter was changed but only a slight difference.
So, if you don’t already own these speakers, is money better spent somewhere else when factoring their cost and this upgrade? ($1300 or so for a pair including this upgrade.)
Because of these videos, I'm not even going to look at these towers anymore! I had rf82II's and sold them for some usedForte's and did the same with some other towers for some used Heresy speakers. I think these older models get around the issues he's talking about by having a three-way design which makes the acoustic center much much closer. The woofer crosses around 700hz. Now, I'm looking at the RP600m with his upgrades as I think that would be a much better economical choice. I run all my speakers with a sub anyway so don't need the extra bass from the larger cabinet and woofer (which it sounds like do more harm in these models than good).
@@NakeanWickliff I’m perplexed, because www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/klipsch-rp-8000f
@@mwahlert Because of their rave review? Notice there aren't any measurements.
Also the more you get into this the more you realize you hear the room more than any speaker. With this knowledge, you can treat the crap out of your room and optimize positioning (in most cases most people can't treat an entire room and only have so many options for placement.) Or you can buy speakers with the best response you can find, really concentrating on the off-axis response because your untreated room is going to have a lot of reflections. You'd be better off with those reflections sounding as much like the original source as possible. But, Alas, I am a novice and the more I learn the more I realize I have NO CLUE!
Looks like I missed the second page which has some measurements. Perhaps it's the 1/12 smoothing (I'm not sure how GR smooths his graphs).
Here's a discussion about this very topic with some measurements confirming GR research measurements.
www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/video-speaker-measurements-by-danny-richie.8840/page-2
Have you tested and built a kit for the RP-6000F?
I have not.
I used to have a set of RF-83's... same two way design but w/ 3 8" woofers and a 1.75" diaphragm tweeter. My question is about the acoustic center you mentioned. It would seem as though that problem would be even worse with the 83's w/ the center of the 3 woofers being lower than the center of the 2 woofers in the 8000f's.... Is that true, or am I confused? weird if that is the case because the rf-83's were incredible sounding speakers. Spent the last year looking for a decent used set... now considering rf-7 III's or La Scala's as well. Appreciate info or help! Best Regards
Thanks Danny for the honest measurements. I noticed these 8000’s missing something immediately. I did what any normal person would do, increased the power and pulled them away from the wall. Not much of a difference. So I did a little more research and learned just more Chinese junk.
Saw your comment Michael, was curious as to what your research may have showed that were deficiencies in the speaker. I’ve heard some excellent reviews on it so I was just wondering if you could tell me more on the flipside. Thanks.
@@davids4795 I added more power, a crown xls 2002, they were clipping my Marantz. And I changed the crossover to 80htz, and pulled them away from the wall about 4 inches, they are rear ported, not ideal for my set up. For the money I think they are a good speaker. To me they were falling short when in 2 channel mode. Much better now. And I'm anti china. So when I learned that's where an american company, founded in Arkansas submitted to china's slave labor, it kinda pissed me off.
@@michaelkreisel3573 chinese “slave labor”. Lol you’re a moron.
We live in a post measurement era. It's all about the golden eared ones now. "Sounds so sweet!"
Something about this doesn't smell right.
What?
Did you tried the right one I heard you say 6inch woofers,I thought the RP 8000f have 8inch woofers or maybe I'm wrong,if I learned one thing on these channels is that no one is on the same page ,I just watched a video the host was saying a hole like that one is on the svs pincle he says that it's like there is a driver missing now these svs speakers they say they are good too
What environment did you measure the speakers in?
I am measuring with a gated time window. So there is no other environmental impact.
Looking for more evidence that this really works, hard to find. I’m running them on a old but cherry SAE system and the sound is fantastic........keeping it 💯
Dick Trickle please have a look at the following review on both standard and upgraded. Be sure to use some good headphones. When I listened at the beginning of the demo sounds of these, it was easy to tell which was the updraded speaker.
czcams.com/video/9JP4OINiQ14/video.html&ab_channel=NewRecordDay