Do Audiophile Cables Matter? Here's PROOF!
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2020
- Do Audiophile Cables Matter? Here's PROOF!
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Here's my experience:
I participated in a cable test in a shop a couple of years ago that included the administrator actually announcing which interconnect cable was used as they changed... a totally UN-blind test! The cables being used varied in price from around 30 bucks to 2000 bucks for a one meter pair. Literally everyone could hear that the $2000 cable was dramatically superior!! BUT, at the end it was revealed that the cables were never actually changed. The $30 cable was in place for the entire test. ;)
In addition to the above, I have participated in and administered blind testing of RCA interconnects on several occasions. In these tests no one ever consistently correlated/identified RCA interconnect cable changes/sound quality regardless of the type of music/equipment used.
So, I have to admit that re exotic cables I'm pretty much in the "it's snake oil" camp! ;)
i believe it, they always harp on about data etc. etc. if there is a difference it should be measureable with instruments. why have i never seen the measured differences? science doesnt lie. science doesnt operate on belief its simply measureable facts. ah yes im betting the demo show's the differences between shielded cables is all another gimmick. i wonder if he knows theres royalty free music that you can play anytime you like. czcams.com/video/H-8bXR-nXC0/video.html&ab_channel=KissAnalog pretty sure this vid shows the test he is doing. btw the gentlemen in the vid is an electric engineer and designs power supplies. funny thing is the scientist in the vid addresses the test he just did lol.
I agree! All wire sounds the same when used for music signals.
It appears so logical that the electric signal conducted is always precisely the same. Thank you for confirmed my thought.
Expensive cables are scams, even if they are beautiful.
That video is also a scam.
Yes, you are right. A lot of these cables cost a few Dollars to produce and are sold for US$1000s of Dollars with ridiculous claims. Of course you need snake oil arguments to make people pay with such insane margins. I've also gone through many professional blind tests being official qualified member and had to get my hearing tested by a professional audiologist every year. Yes, forget about power cables, short distance RCA cables, optical cables, and even speaker cables at short length, as long as they are of decent quality. Obviously cable length matters and I wouldn't use a thin cheap speaker cable if the length was 50 feet as it would cost on the damping factor and perhaps some loss of dBs. Getting the noise floor to a minimum doesn't cost expensive cables also.
And this video is completely unprofessional. Come one, using some Pioneer tuner set to a given frequency of 105MHz The ENERGY of captured RF is so tiny that it wont affect any power amp with near 0 Ohms output impedance. NO, if he wanted to be credible he would use an actual setup and use an RF transmitter in the room and measure the amp output with some 1kHz (an other) sine wave if there was any effect of that RF signal causing any change. Nobody wants to do proper blind tests or proper measurements on this topic because they already know they will fail. If FM radio signal capturing was such a big issue, why do they not consider the topic in their internal speaker wiring and cross-over filters where the two wires are not in proximity and antenna effects can be much bigger?
All this test has done is prove how good or bad those cables work when used as an antenna. How they work as speaker cables with both ends terminated and voltage driving the speaker is an entirely different thing. You need blind testing under controlled conditions to see if people can actually hear a difference, and that's where things usually fall apart for cables making a difference.
Ohhhh... You're one of those people. Hahaha
@@jason4547 Yes fortunately.
@@garyl5128 My people.
@@jason4547 One of those that actually wants to test it properly?
This is why I don't trust GR-R. You demonstrate a speaker wire can act like an RF antenna (which I agree, it can and does), and THEN claim the induced noise affects "the sound" without connecting these wires between an amp and a speaker. Gary correctly points out THAT would the REAL test of whether the induced noise is "audible" or not.
I didn't get very far into this experiment before I had to ask, "Why don't you just test for cable effects by identical signals nulled at the ends of a sample? We engineers do this all the time when looking for very small signal differences due to inequality. The resulting difference is the contribution of the sample cable. Big difference = not so good cable. The standard used could be an agreed essentially lossless bit of conductor.
Also, for the cognoscenti, we don't care a wit about what the sample can conduct; we care a lot about what it changes.
Null testing is a thing.
This should be up voted
yep. Audiophiles and recording engineers don´t have a lot of overlap in knowledge ;) demistify the vodoo
We'll have more on this subject as time permits.
@Dave Reite It was a great illustration of just one of the aspects of the differences of various cables.
@@Raumweiter - I would think that on average, most recording engineers are also audiophiles. That alone ought to make a difference in the results which are supposedly heard.
Seems to me this demo is completely irrelevant. All it shows is how good the cables are as radio antennas. The cables would behave completely different when one end is connected to an 8 ohm or less impedance at one end and the other end is connected to a very low impedance output of an amplifier. It's like determining how fast cars would do in a drag race by measuring the rpm of the tires while the cars are jacked up and the tires are spinning in the air.
Good analogy and they will behave different under a load, but the RFI and EMI issues are not at all irrelevant. There can be quite a bit of an impact on the sound.
@@dannyrichie9743 Maybe if your house is next to an FM transmitter .. but irrelevant at speaker level.
@@rhubarb99999 If it were irrelevant then adding an element like ERS paper on the cables would have no effect. But in reality, it does. So you better rethink you're belief system.
@@dannyrichie9743 I think it's you who needs to rethink your beliefs. I posted this to the guy in the video and I will say it to you and ANY one who believes this snake oil crap! (I still say SNAKE OIL. I will challenge you to come to St Petersburg Fl. Bring your stereo and speakers. I will go to home depot and buy wire and solder connection to them to fit your equipment and we can do a blind listening. I still say you will not be able to tell the difference PERIOD!!! Oh yea no one selling that snake oil has yet to take the blind challenge, Are you game!!!)
@@universe9496 We've done blind test out the wazoo. You damn near have to be deaf not to hear the differences. But keep telling yourself the world is flat enough and you will truly believe it.
I want to see these cable gurus run a double blind ABX test. They can use their own cables. I'm open minded. If they can show they can identify a statistically significant difference in those conditions, then I'll believe them. Until then, I remain unconvinced
I have a great deal of skepticism as well. My mind goes back 40-60 years ago pertaining to the power of the amps, composition of the drivers, and composition of the cables. Have our ears improved along with the testing equipment? I understand annoying hmm & feedback but the cost of some of these cables according to the test equipment is negligible.
Many did and you can hear the difference. Not in every setup though. At the end the difference exists regardless on some beliefs.
@@miroslavkelekovic2507 No, they did not.
ABX on a oscilloscope and you still wont find anything.
we did a blind test with several cables , one had a key as part of the conductor and no one could tell the difference
Danny, the ability of a speaker wire to pickup electromagnetic energy is of no consequence to audio because neglecting other factors, the audio information riding on the RF carrier must be detected (demodulated) to recover the audio signal. The signal strength meter only shows the RF carrier level which cannot be heard unless there is something to detect the audio signal riding on the carrier, either a diode in the case of AM or a frequency discriminator in the case of FM, neither of which is part of an amplifier or speaker. To prove this, put the cables between an amplifier and speaker in the usual fashion and listen for noise without playing anything. If you can't hear and measure anything different with the different cables, there is no audible or measurable difference between the cables. The reason that the big cable showed less signal strength is because it has some additional capacitance and possibly also inductance which acts as a filter, but this is of no consequence in the application as I just stated. Also, while noise can be radiated or conducted, the potential for noise from the power wires being conducted to the speaker wires is nil, because of the filtering within the power supplies. If it was being conducted through the power supply, it would result in clearly measurable and potentially audible results depending on the amplitude of the noise at the amplifiers output, degrading the signal to noise measurement.
Fights between individuals, as well as governments and nations, invariably result from misunderstandings in the broadest interpretation of this term. Misunderstandings are always caused by the inability of appreciating one another's point of view. This again is due to the ignorance of those concerned, not so much in their own, as in their mutual fields. The peril of a clash is aggravated by a more or less predominant sense of combativeness, posed by every human being. To resist this inherent fighting tendency the best way is to dispel ignorance of the doings of others by a systematic spread of general knowledge. With this object in view, it is most important to aid exchange of thought and intercourse.
Also any wire will pick up RF. The wires you are using are opened ended, it needs to be terminated as it would be in the circuit. Put an 8 ohm resister across the open ended wires and redo the test. Your 4th wire measure the capacitance and you may find it reject the frequencies in the 100 MHz range.
@@rf0022 Yes, any electromagnetic field will induce a voltage in a wire. And you are also right that the terminating impedance will affect the voltage across the wire, but the tuner does terminate the cable with either 300 ohm or 75 ohm impedance depending on which antenna terminals Danny used. And also the extra capacitance and also possibly inductance in the 4th big cable is why the voltage is reduced. None of this matters however because the audio modulated on the FM carrier cannot be detected as there is no such mechanism in the amplifier or speaker. This was a faulty demonstration of any influence of RF energy affecting the sound of a speaker cable. The only way to demonstrate if there are any differences between speaker cables relative to their capacity to pickup RF/EMI is to use them in the usual fashion between the amplifier and speaker playing nothing and listen for anything different between the cables.
I dont believe the RF was the intent of this experiment. The point was rather you believe speaker wires are all the same. Danny demonstrated this beautifully.
The "best" speaker wire had almost no absorption of bled noises.....kind of like a filter of unwanted signal. Danny is correct to show the wires are not the same when it comes to insulation from bled noises.
@@billjackson3257 that's pretty deep. I will never think of Radio Frequency the same
Btw.. ever see "they live" or "1984"
Whether the cables improve sound quality or not, this is a terrible "experiment" to prove anything. I'm pretty sure my speaker response rolls off long before 88 Mhz anyways. And an RF signal through an 8 ohm load produces approximately 0 watts of power anyways.
yep , i was thinking something similar, we are talking minute levels of energy which will produce negligible response in the speakers....
@@Lauren080508 You guys don't get it. What is noise? It's not hiss or hum that you hear, it's degradation of your noise floor. Since you aren't aware of what affects your noise floor, just keep on rocking with whatever compromised cables you have.
Unfortunately I don't think this is wholly accurate unless there is a load on it completing/closing the circuit. Opened ended wires act as an antenna based on the length and twist index and available frequencies to cause ingress.
Unfortunately I don't think this is wholly accurate unless there is a load on it completing/closing the circuit. Opened ended wires act as an antenna based on the length and twist index and available frequencies to cause ingress.
It's a completely relevant test. It demonstrates the effect of an increased noise floor, which can effect the perceived sound quality.
My cables sound so good i got rid of all my other hifi gear! No speakers, amps, Dacs nothing just cables!
Yeah, but in that sort of case you know that you have to match the cables to the cosmic background radiation, otherwise you will have terrible audio quality!!!!!
Also, listening to those cables on the 6th Tuesday of the month at 3:pm helps too, Hugely!!
Hahahahahaha ...
Make sure to pull your cables out and away from the walls.
@@oldaudiograndpa1055 Yes, and consider the gravitational mass effect of nearby ferrous metals in carpet tack strips and flooring/framing nails on the cable.
So, RF coupling affects the noise floor, and how you can hear the decay of instruments, correct? Just plug your cables into a speaker, but don't connect any amp. Then you have the RF at the speaker input. What will you hear?
The sound of positive thinking.
I don't hear anything through my tin foil hat that protects my brain from RF noise.
The sound of one hand clapping.
Now plug any of those cables into your speakers, with your amp disconnected/off. Do you hear anything? That's how much of a difference there is. None.
Exactly my thoughts, the noise emanating from my speakers with just the speaker wires connected is deafening!
!
I have tried some on loan from much more well heeled friends. For my ear/brain combo all that really matters is a very basic level of quality (essentially OFC).
After that my opinion is atmospheric pressure, barometric pressure fluctuation, and relative humidity have a greater potential for impact. I could see the former having a demonstrable effect but the latter two... well...
His friends did hear FM radio at home
@@aman-mn5kc ????, they heard fm stations being picked up by the speaker wires and transmitted to the speakers?
so without an fm tuner their low quality speaker wire was able to extract the music from the ~ 90 MHz carrier signal.....amazing
While it's interesting to note that the different cable geometries can result in measurable differences in RF signal capture (all the antenna engineers just said "well duh!"), the test rig did its measuring here with a circuit specifically designed to receive those signals at the modulation frequencies. Just because an unterminated wire pair can capture RF out of the test environment (act as an antenna) doesn't mean that the signal will have any significance when applied in the actual circuit use case. The voltages involved between an amplifier output and the detected RF signal is likely on the order of 3 or 4 orders of magnitude (or more), and that RF signal is orders of magnitude above the ears ability to hear. There may be secondary effects on the circuitry of a poorly designed amplifier, akin to oscillations outside the audible range loading the circuit devices and affecting their performance on audible signals. Different amplifier topologies will also react differently (e.g. class D amplifiers of necessity employ filters to remove aliasing that would also wipe out any of these rogue RF signals.) In the end, it comes down to how you define whether something "matters". Just connecting random copper lengths to an RF input is barely the start of a proper test rig. If the assertion is that this specifically should be applied to speaker wire, at a minimum you need to have both ends attached to the typical terminations (amplifier output stage and speaker input - likely crossover components but ultimately a transducer voice coil). Only then are any measurements realistic and potentially of concern.
I was wondering the same thing - how an unterminated pair of wires work as an antenna is a completely different thing to being used to conduct voltages in a complete circuit to drive a speaker. These tests don't prove those cables make any difference to how the speakers will sound. The only way to know is for blind testing in controlled conditions. Floyd Toole has done plenty of research into how people rate speakers in controlled conditions, and when people can see a speaker they will give different results to when they can't. The same goes for cables.
@@garyl5128 It's why Julliard stated having blind judges during auditions.
This is actually my new fav audio cringe/hate watch channel. Idk how someone so clearly brilliant and passionate about technical audio science could spout this stuff day after day with a straight face. But ultimately I’d do the same thing to increase hate comment interactions and owned an audio store to profit off the wealthy suckers while they guzzle down all the yummy yummy snake oil straight from the snake oil source💀
Maybe you should have followed the link posted below the video: czcams.com/video/ER_lqNFckxY/video.html
Yeah the voltage in speaker wires is so high, that effect from these interferences really doesn't affect that much to the output. It is like you scoop water from a river with a teaspoon. It really doesn't affect the total flow. Case is different with 1vpp signals with active speakers. There the signal cable insulation and cable quality really matters. And this is the main reason I naturally prefer passive speakers over actives.
I guess you'd be shocked to find out that most recording studios where your music was recorded and mixed use pretty standard cable. It's not dirt cheap cable but it's not $30 a foot. Probably a couple of dollars a foot. And you should see the mass of wires behind some of those consoles.
and trought a bunch of "cheap" electrolitic capacitors, uggly silicon based op amp and noisy carbon film resistors ha ha ha xD
Belkin, Canare, Mogami, mostly.
I had read that most recording studios use active loudspeakers: active biamplified speakers with active crossovers. That would totally eliminate passive crossovers and speaker wire. That would probably not apply to all the music that has been recorded over the years.
@@paulsebring6930 For pro audio we use symetrical connection. So WE have no issues with emi even at long câble length.
this just proves that we are a bunch of monkeys which repeats that what we have heard and come to a conclusion about. Same story about people who learn something, like, they dont use expensive cables in the recording studio, and that that music was never mixed for audiophile system. Now, you think you are smart and have got 1 up on the rest with selecting your theory based on one practitioner who has come to this conclusion then run around and tell everyone how your mindset works on the matter in that the recording is not mixed for an audiophile system. And while you may be quiet right, the point it, for whatevery system you migh have at your home, hifi or high end, everything makes a difference and its not about your thinking and resort that makes out the difference and your so very strict knowledge about what is bullshit and what is not decided upon one theory of some coffee drinking theorist, who has probably never heard a high end system and comes out and spits out theories about that things does or does not matter.
The same shit for the opposites, they have seen the light at the end of the tunnel and go preach about some theory which has come to their attention. We really are a bunch of monkeys. Some for the money, some for their own right to be right. If there was even one company who knew how to make good sound, if they had the fact on what made good sound they would have made it long ago. The business is to make you think that you are right, then to be confident in your beliefs, so that they then can bend you over and keep you as a disciple of their theory so that their theory manifests itself as the truth in this world.
Where’s the technical talk?
Where's the beef? 😁
I send all my cables to a to a ancient temple in Tibet. The cables stay with monks for 3 weeks The monks meditate and pray with the cables. This makes A huge difference In sound quality and it also offers me a more emotional connection with my cables Which also results to better sound It's a very spiritual experience you should try it.
I also have friends that are flat earthers And since the Earth is flat they use flat cables and they elevate these cables off the floor using petrified wood blocks this creates the famous plateau effect Which they say dramatically improves sound quality.
LOL!!
HaHaHaHa
My cables are delayed, still on backorder due to corona.
@ReaktorLeak OMG thank you so much for the tip. I just put some of my wives clear quartz healing crystals on my cables one crystal for every foot of cable.
I am truly blown away at how crystal clear the sound is it's simply amazing.
Hahahahahahha hahahahahahha
"we're not going to listen to it"... Literally the only test that actually matters for audio
The only test that only means something to you and has nothing to do with what the quality actually is.
@@lazyh-online4839 lol k. If listening to the audio isn't your ultimate test on sound quality then nothing more needs to be said.
He's attempting to illustrate his point in a visual manner, as people tend to believe seeing is believing. His point being cables act as either filters or an aerial, with regards RFI transmission and affecting the noise floor. So, he's SHOWING you WHY cables can make a difference. Out of the 4 shown, which one would people probably choose? Which would *sound* THE BEST?
@@stephenfurley1025 simple answer, double blind testing accounting for the ability of the listener to properly and subjectively hear the music to determine if there are truly ANY differences that are audible. Yes, thereay be some rf interference but the question is does it affect the audio in any audible way and any properly done double blind tests and analyzing sound with a microphone that can pickup noise far outside of human hearing has demonstrated and PROVEN that no, it's not. All he's doing in the video is demonstrating that there is an effect, he isn't demonstrating if the effect is audible or meaningful in any way.
@@RoseGold823 I never said that it wasn't, but if you're trying to find out if the differences are truly audible or just psychological then you need to make sure you're doing it right. If you're doing it for your own home and your own system then that's absolutely fine to let that psychological bias take hold of your ears. I never said there was anything wrong with that, simple fact is that as I've said in many comments on this video psychology does go into how things sound to you and if it helps you feel like the sound is better then it's up to you if that "sound" is worth it. I'll never fault anyone for buying these products.
The difference is, hearing is only telling you how it sounds to YOU. It doesn't answer the question about actual subjective sound quality outside of how your brain changes the signal coming from your ears or how it sounds to people who don't have a psychological response to price tag or marketing. The ultimate test would be to listen, but properly, with double blind testing. What "sounds good" to you and what actually affects the quality of the vibrations leaving a transducer are two completely different things. Both can be determined by listening and you sound pretty stupid for not realizing this.
This is not proof, all he’s doing is showing how to use a standard wire as an antenna. Don’t mean you can hear the differences in cables
You are absolutely incorrect, but thanks for felling the need to post your opinion.
I will argue that in basic systems, it is more difficult to hear differences between cables. However, if you have a high end, revealing system, the differences are pretty obvious. It's not voodoo. I understand not wanting to spend major money on cables; I am the same. I build my own cables for a fraction of the cost and yes, the differences are outstanding compared to the monoprice cables I used to sport. Instead of turning a deaf ear, you might want to listen to Danny. He knows what he's talking about and you can learn a lot from him.
@@LunarLightLtd1 Nope. I own a pretty high end system. I used to have Kimber 8TC speaker cables and had lots of noise from my speakers. Speaker cables were not responsible for this. It was a ground loop coming from my pc's power supply that once managed to break, my system went dead silent. Afterwards, I've changed speaker cables to lower priced Chord Carnivals and also went XLR all the way. I can't hear noise even if I stick my ear to the tweeter. So, myth busted..!!
@@nicholasstathopoulos8192 we're talking about two completely different things buddy. Ground noise and shit in the signal won't magically disappear with good cables. It's still being conducted on the line. Good cables will prevent other distortions from being radiated or conducted from rf, emi, and the like. So, myth not busted, we're discussing two different things.
It demonstrates the effect of an increased noise floor, which can effect the perceived sound quality.
So.....you are proposing that the RF energy floating around pretty much everywhere has an effect on the analog audio signal carried by a speaker cable? Uh....I don't know if I am buying this theory. Yes this demonstration does prove that some speaker cables make good FM radio antennae's while others do not. The audio signal is a bit different from RF energy. I am not saying that cables do not matter even though I have not been able to hear any significant perceivable difference myself. I am not convinced by this parlor trick. It proves nothing about differences in sound. Proof would be if you can show a difference between input and output of an audio signal over different cables. I have yet to see anyone provide this sort of proof.
No parlor tricks here. The demonstration was real and highlighted just one of the differences in cables. This one was just easy to show. And the proof is in the pudding, as they say. There are clear audio differences.
@@dannyrichie9743 well it would be foolish of me to outright deny that there are differences in audio signal transmission between cables. However there is a clear lack of evidence and your demonstration proved nothing related to actual transmission of an audio signal. An FM carrier wave at 104 MHZ is not going to have an effect on the audio signal. They are two completely different things from a physics point of view. As I said already "proof" would be demonstrating a measurable and significant difference in output of an audio signal between two different cables. However I am hesitant to dismiss the lack of measured differences to mean you don't hear a difference because we may just not be measuring the right things. Interesting video and I meant you no disrespect by calling your demo a parlor trick. I just feel like many folks that do not have a background in electrical/RF engineering would be sufficiently confused to believe you actually proved anything other than some some speaker cables are better antennas than others.
@@JHuffPhoto You're thinking about this. I like that. The proving that cables are different in one aspect (being an antenna or filter) doesn't prove an audible difference, but it does prove them different in that regard. And that does effect the signal transfer. The real test is to perform listening tests and comparisons to know if there is an audible difference. I've done this a LOT. However, that still doesn't prove anything to the nay sayers. So proving anything to the masses is tough.
@@dannyrichie9743 I have learned that it is never wise to simply dismiss someone's experience outright. However I do have a few questions. Ok so you say that the RF rejection characteristics have an effect on the transmission of the audio signal. How would you explain this effect (in technical scientific terms) and measure it in a scientific way? An effect that is at -130db from the signal level will likely not be audible so how would you propose to measure this effect and determine the level relative to the input signal.
@@JHuffPhoto Good question. I don't have the means to measure it, but it is pretty easy to hear on a good system. And some things that we do are just really tough to measure.
In my house the lamp cord is dead quiet too.
Yours too? This must be some kind of mass hallucination, I mean some guy on tube has just proven that cables are riddled with a previously undiscovered audible rf using the vu meters on an old receiver-you can’t argue with that!
I presented this idea as a reply to another comment: A more significant test than RF pickup on unterminated wire would be very simple. Since the amplifier output impedance is very low, disconnect the speaker wire from the amplifier and short the leads together. The speaker wire that produces the least amount of audible noise through the speaker when not connected to an amplifier and the leads shorted is the best speaker wire.
An inductor would produce the best result, but make the worst speaker wire. The entire premise of this video is absolute garbage.
LOL!
@@mdocod in deed. This snake oil relies on the very subjective nature of human hearing , and that's why they can never pass a double blind test
Isn't the FM signal neglectable small compared to the speaker signal?
It would be interesting to measure the cables on a LCR tester, I would hypothesize that the higher capacitance on the braided cables (more pairs braided, more surface area on conductors in close proximity to each other) is shorting out the RF. I would bet if you whack a .001uf ceramic across the rf input it would also null out the RF signal without being something that would significantly impact frequencies within the audio band. No doubt in my mind that the cables will measure different as you are trying to explain, im just questioning if we were to simulate higher capacitance would that also have a similar effect.
If you can repeat the same with a 8 ohm resistor connected to the other end of the cable, and show the same results, that would be amazing....Or you connect an open cable to a speaker and you can hear something from the speaker. Show me.
Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question. But I'm fairly new to the audiophile world and I'm learning a lot by watching your videos. Interference of any kind CAN cause measurable effects on the quality of your sound. So would having your equipment ran into a good quality power-conditioner help eliminate that issue? Would this, plus shielded cables make a huge difference?
If you live in a power plant it could.... In most of the regular homes an extra shielding does nothing, assuming that you prepped and connected your audio cables properly. Induction on both wires is in opposite phase hence it cancel each other.
I've got 64 year old ears, so I used 2.5mm twin and earth domestic power-cable for my workshop speakers. My music sounds beautiful coming from my 1972 Goodmans Magnum K2's. No clicks, buzzes, hum, RFI or anything like that, just lovely music.
May i ask if you use two wires on the plus or the minus? I was thinking of doing the same with the garden type because they are very flexible and very cheap I could use also extension power cable also very cheap and flexible
Nice to know I'm not the only person using vintage speakers in the workshop, I get a choice between Mission 720'a and TDL RTL3's :).
If your amp is sensitive to RF coming in on the speaker leads you have bigger problems than speaker cables. My dad had an old Fisher tube reciever that picked up the neighbors linear amped CB. I slapped a 1pf cap on the speaker outputs and that went away. I suspect that those braided wires are acting as tiny capacitors.
That is total bullshit. Not across the speaker terminals. It wouldn't do a damn thing.
@@dalemcgaffey4272 Actually it did. My suspicion is that the almost 30 year old crossover had some going bad in a non-linear way. We could hear the noise on the headphone output, but only if the speakers were on. Disconnecting either conductor caused the noise on the headphones to stop. This was not common mode noise. Never saw the like of it again though and it has been more than 30 years. One of the speakers made a much larger contribution to the problem, like 20db more than the other. The speakers were a miss matched pair of AR 10" 2 ways.
No, they are acting as antennas.
@@jdrissel What you were experiencing with the Fisher receiver and the neighbor's linear amped CB was the RF being picked up by the speaker cables and getting into the receiver's RF sections and being detected and amplified. Similar to a crystal radio that doesn't even need a tuned front end but just detects the strongest AM signal and has enough power even to drive an earphone. I was into CB and ham radio back in the 60s before converting into an audiophile. The 1pf cap was enough to kill the RF signal enough to not be a problem.
@Mdmchannel auto corrupt strikes again. Sorry for any confusion. When I posted that it was 1 picofarad in its abbreviated format. I had to backspace and un-correct it when I typed it and apparently it was auto-corrupted sometime after I submitted it. This makes me wonder about the admissibility of anything posted online. I don't have to wonder about posts here. This is at least the third time a comment of mine has been auto-corrupted.
The discussion at the end regarding shielding, you were talking more about noise from your local energy supplier rather than picking them up from the 'airwaves'. Are they actually analogous as you implied? I.E. Will the shielded cables actually not reject radio noise, and will the braided cable actually filter power supply noise?
I just found your channel and I'm immediately grateful and intent on immersing myself in your videos to advance my personal & professional knowledge of audio reproduction and how to achieve much better results, especially in my home studio and media room--not to mention my own bedroom, which hasn't been optimized in any way as of this writing.
PLEASE, may I implore of you; however, to NOT presume that your subscribers won't be capable of (or willing to try) following you through the intricate minutiae of a technical deep dive into the pertinent aspects and scientific relevancy behind professional and "audiophile" quality sound reproduction. I know I'm not the only audio / electronics geek & total tech junkie out here with a true appreciation AND affinity for the relevant chemistry, physics and other crucial knowledge regarding the effects of acoustics and/or sound propagation on spectral & sonic characteristics of audio at the listening position.
I am excited about the possibility that you might reconsider delving deeper into this topic further because, though this was a fantastic eye-opener and quality primer on the subject matter, I KNOW you've got a tremendous amount of knowledge & WISDOM to impart. I, for one, would like to pick your brain--so don't mind if I continue to leech as much from your channel as you'll willingly provide!
Thanks, from Frisco, Texas!
Cheers and best wishes for your continued success.
I'd be very interested in knowing the differences between biwiring speakers into a 4 channels of an amp compared to bridging the bindings using 2 channels of the amp. I can audibly hear a difference on my setup. My setup is Pioneer SX-1280 with vintage Mission 871's. Ive done the some experiment using a Marantz PM-55 amp. Thanks
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I think the "square" Earth globe says it all..........
A definite improvement over flat earth, yes?
I’m a flat earth believer but I still believe in speaker cables making the difference in sound.
Square Earth??? No Balls! ;-)
@@jogmas12 That actually makes loads of sense.
@@matilija I have done my due diligence on the research into both, the earth is proven flat and the right speakers cables can make a difference
I'm curious about "low mass" connectors making such an improvement, but the full length tin plated copper leads on all the cross over components are twisted together in a mess and gobs of tin/lead solder are applied. Seems kind of contradictory.
The other day I let an accapella ensemble sing right into the cables. It sounded awesome.
Makes sebse, but where do you source your cables? I followed the Cast copper thread to the Japanese metalurgist papers he wrote while at the university of Toronto and then found a company in Canada that uses cast copper for their cables. In the days of a pandemic I have no idea where one could listen to these cables, do you have any suggestions?
I like the video, but would it be better to connect the cables in the system to the speakers and turn up the volume too 10 and listen for noise Obviously without a signal source, and then compare the cables..
Regards
The tuner caught my eye immediately. Looks like a pioneer tx7500. Fantastic. Got one new back in the 70s when they were worth having, because FM stations still offered quality music well recorded and transmitted. Around here, there are no good FM stations anymore, so I sold it recently, in its original box with manual.
rtel123 looks like my TX9500 mk2 . Got one boxed in a back room, lovely example of old Pioneer kit.
@@kjbunnyboiler TX8500 MK2
What about running the speakers with coax cable like tv (75Ohms) or (50OHhms) like the RG58? Is perhaps not thick enough? It must carry more current rather than intensity right?
Hi I'm new to this but can you place a capacitor in line on the positive wire... would that help or would that only change the character of the speaker , thanks for your time.
If they do make a significant difference , why don't you replace all the internal wiring in your speakers with it ?
Really good question.
You'd also need to open up your amp and redo the wires in there.
@@redstang5150 And all the circuit board connections.
He does
It really is amusing how Danny refers to people that follow scientific principals as flat earthers while providing pseudoscience "proof" like this. Not unlike the many "flat earth proofs" out there.
Yeah, it is kind of ironic that it is the opposite of what you'd think. Those guys have a preconceived belief system and refuse anything that contradicts their beliefs.
@@dannyrichie9743Sorry to say, but I really think it's you that the irony is lost on. Belief defies scientific explanation, such as trusting on faith the biased opinion(usually based on expectation, group confirmation and in this case pseudoscience) of others. These opinions never stand up to scientific evaluation.
Danny Richie says the dude that wants to sell the idea rf that range far beyond human hearing (megahertz) really influences cables.
You’re not scoring points at all, perhaps just stick to building speakers
@@MichelLinschoten Sorry if that one is hard for you to get your head around, but that stuff really does effect the sound, especially on front end gear and digital signals. And I enjoy helping other reach higher levels of performance with their systems at every aspect.
@@dannyrichie9743 How does it effect the sound ? Please explain how it's even possible.
What of the effect of the high capacitance of such a cable? There are certainly some amps that I understand won't like that (Naim/NVA due to hysteresis??). I do use woven power cables - DIY enclosed in flexible conduit.
How much per ft are the good cables?
Did you make them or sell them?
I'm the first to acknowledge there are subtle differences between cables. However, this isn't the way to measure those differences, and even then, just because you can measure the difference it doesn't follow that you can hear the difference!
Especially with the limited hearing of age 50+ listeners.
Yes. A listening test is always best. There may in fact be audible differences to some ears. Especially those of us without much frequency loss yet. Due to age or misuse.
@@MrRobot-dr1ln with the expensive cable always sounding best.....when you know it's the more expensive one.
@@michaelwildsmith4446 Haha, yup. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that copper cables are described as having a warm, rich sound while silver is described as cool and analytical. Nothing to do with the appearance of the metal at all. Nope. /s
I would be all about an even deeper dive. I am working on my ascent to decent cables. I just need to learn how to get what is good, not what is expensive, because I am poor. Ha ha.
I learned a bit about this noise-floor issue. I use my computer as a source. I had gotten a high quality USB ethernet, then through 25 feet of Cat 5, then through yet another USB. Not only did it work, it immediately sounded better. I could hear the lack of noise, though I hadn't noticed the noise before. It was almost like a loudness filter, because I could listen at much lower levels and still hear definition.
I don't want it to be this way, but it just is, and I want BETTER. . . I'm an avid DIY man, and would like to create my own cables, if I can do it, but how to test. Your method with a tuner is an interesting one, and seems like a nice way to do some testing, though likely incomplete.
Benjamin Anthony, please share when you find a solution if you don't want to start cable manufacturing, i.e.
@@azharzaidi3264 I actually ran across an improvement, by strange and horribly ugly experimentation, before.
I was using 16 ga "zip cord", run parallel with 12 ga 3 conductor, outdoor-type extention cord.
The zip cord is longer than the extention cable, and wrapped around it, loosely. This sounds better than either bu themselves. I will not say it is great, though.
Point to take - Never listen to me! LOL
Just braid some cables together and hook up a descent connector
The signal on a USB cable is digital data, not audio. Digital data does not become an audio signal until it passes through a DAC Digital to Analog Converter. The only way to add noise to the audio while it is still in digital form is to change the digital data that is converted to audio without changing the digital data that controls the transmission of the data between devices, which is not likely. Were you using the DAC in the computer and sending analog audio to your headphones or your amplifier, or were you connected to the DAC in your amplifier?
@@paulsebring6930 Actually the digital signal is very fragile and more effected by RFI and EMI than just about anything else in the chain. All that noise still has to be handled in the D/A conversion process. So there can be and is a huge amount of difference in USB cables.
Thank you for that. Is there a way to hear if there is any noise in my system. If I turn it on but don’t drop the needle into a record I don’t hear anything through the speakers. Is it that simple?
No.
What does it measures if the speaker is connected ? Wouldn't the voice coils shunt out any Mega Hz signal ?
It s a loudspeakers cable !!! Not an antenna!
Anything is an antenna. Two long speaker cables act as antennas feeding your speakers. Power cables pick up noise, which feed your system. Your speaker cables not only carry the noise from your amp to your speakers, but they also then pick up airborne noise (RFI & EMF) and transmit that noise to your speakers.
@@neilhunter6096 l was an am band dx er. I m an encyclopedia on antennas.
I think you 3 missed the point. Yes a plain pair of low quality copper, two cable speaker wire side by side will act as an antenna. What Danny is pointing out is that a high quality copper multi strand cable constructed in a braid acts to cancel out RMI and EFI ( translation...noise! ) The cable wont make your system sound better, a bad cable will pick up noise and make your system sound bad and not what the equipment should sound like... For the record I think insanely expensive cables are nonsense. Just use a well constructed cable made from high quality wire.
@@neilhunter6096 then why when I have nothing but a speaker cable hooked up to my speaker cannot hear this magical noise? Is after the amplifier so it's not like the amplifier is going to be amplifying this noise
@@johnlastname2895 because it's bullshit
I think what all this boils down to is CABLE ARCHITECTURE. If you took notice Danny used a variety of cable from straight wired zip chord to increasingly complicated braided multi-stranded, multi-cored wires. What happens as you increase the complexity of the cable is a reduced noise floor, because the braids act as a faraday cage on the neutral, which is where most of the noise tends to be.
In my own recent experiments making RCA, and speaker cables I have found a profound difference when the signal wires are shielded by the neutral, that is, wound as close as possible to 90 degrees around the signal wires. Results were a much reduced noise floor, cleaner, clearer, sound, more detail and nuance.
For all the naysayers I suggest you actually build your own cables before you criticize Danny's findings. You don't need to spend a lot of money to get stellar results if you DIY, either. I have been utilizing Steeve Reeve's designs, in particular his RCA cabes, and his speaker cables with fantastic results. He explains the engineering behind the design in easy to understand terms. Check them out here. DIY Speaker Cables - The "HELIX IMAGE" Speaker Cable
I have recently had to plug my entire sound system to a new electrical circuit because my preferred "convenient "circuit was far too noisy .Even buying a circuit regulator did not help(though I don't know if that was my fault for buying too big a wattage device?)
Do you think that Helix Image cable would resolve the problem?
@@johnh539 Not sure if it will help? Sounds to me like you have more serious issues than just the RCA cables themselves. Make sure you route all power cables away from sources, and also keep them separate from your rca cables. Make sure equipment is grounded if it need be, and also keep sources like pre amps away from power amps. Think long and hard about separating cables and making the back of your equipment with cabling and the like as tidy as you can. Hope this helps?
@@karlcotleanu486 thanks for your advice. I have never understood grounding Hif where do you ground to , can I attach it to the metal flames of my furniture?If I have separates do they all have to be earthed to different 'say Frames 'or do you form a loom and ground them as one?
My friend please tell me to which best speakers to buy for home theatre with AV receiver
In my recording studios, I have always used heavy duty 3 core electrical cable, and I would only use 2 cores out of the three. I have always had a good result with that. But I’m not a technician. Also I use to have that Tuner in my home set up, It was a nice piece of kit. 😁
I'm not going to discount the possibility that speaker wire may make a difference in sound. I worked with one technician who said his ears were so fine tuned that he not only could tell the difference in audio cables, he could tell the direction the copper was drawn when the cable was made. Myself and the rest of the shop had all they could do to not laugh out loud.
Most of my life though, I was employed in the computer or Information Technology field.
I did work for awhile as a professional audio technician. I've also built my own amplifiers and speakers. I can't say with absolute certainty, I have heard the differences in proper speaker wiring, but the fact is I don't have the same test conditions, or the listening room as he has.
You have done yourself somewhat of a disservice in this explanation. I don't want to be mean here or suggest you don't know your business.
My point is this test isn't correct. Sure, an unshielded, unterminated pair of wires can pick up Radio frequencies. Even doing twists throughout the length of that black cable can slightly attenuate picking up high frequency magnetic waves. The comparison of microvolt signals to a standard 1 watt @ 1 meter (2.83 volt) speaker sensitivity test would show you the tiny 10 to 50 microvolt signal you picked up is thousands of times weaker. This translates to well below human hearing threshold for sensitivity. No doubt though, once you connect the speaker wire to an amplifier and the other end to an 8 or 4 ohm speaker, even that radio wouldn't be picked up.
Going further into your presentation, yes line noise can affect the quality of sound from an amplifier. It not only gets picked up, it gets amplified.
Do I doubt your word that the best speaker wire will improve quality? No & yes. From what you say and experience in your hearing test lab, you may be right. From this tuner test I would say, I would have to say your findings are suspect.
The tighter the twist, the smaller the wavelength of noise a twisted pair cable can cancel. Any fairly well twisted cable will eliminate noise of consequence to the audio band.
@dannyrichie @gr-research what are your thoughts on power conditioners (i.e. Furman) that filter out noise?
All i can say is i can attest on what Danny is explaining. I used to get radio signal from my neighbors CB transmissions while playing my music. I learned later is to move the speaker wires around until i couldn't hear these CB transmissions. The same thing happened in the 70s with our TV set with a antenna on the roof.
Have you heard of ferret core filters? It's at the end of all your computer plugs and on many other electronics, it's the bulge, (cylindrical form) it's to hamper the rf signals.
I remember when Hi Fi choice did a blind listening test on 20 cables using a group of their readers
Cables from £20 to £1000 a metre BUT with a piece of household solid core "twin and earth" thrown in as a bit of a joke
When all the results were in and aggregated (no small task, I think they had 6 listeners)
The twin and earth came in......third.
A lot of egg on a lot of faces, and they've not run that type of test in the 20 years since.
There's a big difference between the bell wire interconnects and speaker wire often supplied and thicker, screened, oxygen free stuff, there's even an audible difference (very slight warmth in multi) between solid core and multi strand.
But that's as far as it goes in terms of sound quality in my experience.
Put the money into better speakers, it'll make a far more profound difference
Actually the differences go way beyond that.
@@dannyrichie9743 Strangely never measurable, and nobody talks about the internal speaker wiring
You hear what you like, I've tried most things from Audioquest, QED, Van Den Hul and Cabletalk over the years.
Much arse is spoken, I defy most people to tell one decently screened 79 strand OFC multistrand from another.
And there's, realistically, no reason why they should be able to.
@@dannyrichie9743 Strangely never measurable, and nobody talks about the internal speaker wiring
You hear what you like, I've tried most things from Audioquest, QED, Van Den Hul and Cabletalk over the years.
Much arse is spoken, I defy most people to tell one decently screened 79 strand OFC multistrand from another.
And there's, realistically, no reason why they should be able to.
@@DomRivers67 Actually there are a lot of reasons why they sound different and listening test confirm it.
Yep. I used to install audio systems in cinema auditoriums. Big room, very long cable runs, big power. We field tested a whole bunch of different cable. Our conclusions? Unless you're dealing with a REALLY long run of cable (like, over 50 metres) then regular old decent quality 240 volt 2-core flex is just fine. If it's good enough to carry 240 volts at 10 amps then it's well good enough to use as speaker cable. It costs about $1.50 a metre at any hardware store.
Plus, as many others have pointed out, the bottle-necks in most systems are:
a) how the signal is transferred from the output transistors to the speaker terminals inside the amplifier
b) how the signal is transferred from the terminals to the crossover and/or drivers inside the speaker cabinet.
Most home stereo amps use either micron thickness tracks on the board or very small gauge cable to carry the signal from the output transistors. Some better quality amps may use solid copper busbars, but even in the biggest power units these aren't more than 3mm wide and are totally un-shielded.
Most speakers use fairly small gauge cable to carry the signal from the terminals to the crossover network, which is itself a bottleneck as it's a circuit with tiny connectors and micron thickness copper tracks. Even if you're wiring directly to the drivers the size of the connecting lug is the determining factor. Using any cable larger than that lug is superfluous to requirements.
In all these scenarios the use of fancy expensive speaker cable is utterly pointless.
Yes, I've got a decent system at home. Bi-amped, big power amps, the whole bit. What am I using as speaker cable? 240 volt 2-core flex. Cost about 10 bucks. It sounds fantastic. Spend your money on better components - don't waste it on ridiculous overpriced ancillary garbage. That $250 you spent on cables could have gone toward a better cartridge for your turntable - and that would be a difference you can actually hear. Anyone who says they can hear a difference with their fancy expensive cable is justifying the reason they wasted their money, nothing more.
I still want to go into the listening room.
Hey Buddy can you make those wires into interconnects I am getting some radio interference between my phono and my preamp
GR-RESEARCH help me understand, based on the cables u used are you saying the black cheap cable is best of the white 24 stranded braided one?
The better cable is the cable that is NOT an antenna.
When cable manufacturers start giving proper measurements I will buy them. Until then I believe thick copper to be the best.
I'm sorry that your world is flat as well.
Ahh yes the one believing in magical cables without measurements is the educated one. You can't pick when you believe in science and when you don't.
@@marcusm5127 To be fair, in most cases you probably don't even need thick cables, but I doubt that's what Danny meant.. :-)
I hear a difference on the cables that I’ve changed.., I don’t go by measurements... I try them and listen.., I check my opinion with giving my wife a blind test.....
Best results so far are with power cables..
@@tigertiger1699 ahaha mate, you should do a standup comedy
I had to give up when you got to the 'rf on the mains gets through...'. Hmmm. You say that an inductor attenuates HF. The x-former is a very large value inductor, so what is the attenuation of RF as it enters your system through a traditional (non-SM) PSU?
Oh, have you considered testing a nice lab-standard Faraday cage for your listening room to eliminate pesky RF.... should be not much more than your 'reference' cables 😉
Or putting a tinfoil hat on 😂😂
Hello Danny
I have a Shunyata Venom power distributor which I run and power all my components through. Do you think that these devices help reduce possible noise coming down the lines from outside sources as you indicated which can possibly introduce noise in your audio system. Have you tested any of these Shunyata power distribution components?
The owner of that company send me product just for my feedback. He is a brilliant designer and has great products.
how does a shielded 1/8" guitar amp cable work? not the instrument cable but the similar looking but high power ones for connecting the amp head to the cabinet?
Listening to this video through my headphones with wires connected to my smartphone designed to use the headphone wire as the FM receiver antenna. Sounds great. Might be because I can't hear FM radio signals in the MHz range, or that the energy from the FM radio signal is near zero and won't drive the headphones, and if there was enough energy to move the drivers, they couldn't reproduce MHz. I just don't know.
You are 100% right. This is total hogwash, obviously. There are many videos, and articles by the experts in this field that totally dispute his "findings". PROOF? HA..
@WESTEL Audio ;) yeah, but I also microwave my headphones for 100 hours on low to make sure they're burned it
so if the power amp has good rf filtering, we can just simply use any cheap but good speaker cables, right?
if other cables in the system are letting noise in, the filtering achieved by the speaker cable (the last cable in the delivery chain) cannot remove it. but it will prevent more noise from getting in the signal.
@@neilhunter6096 correct., but if all the cables are designed to mitigate picking it up there will be less noise leaking into to entire system. this i why he gets such a quiet background. it lowers the signal to noise ratio.
Good (size) speaker cables can't be cheap. But the small size cables aren't as good.
@@IliyaOsnovikov nah. high quality low gauge speaker wires definitely are affordable, look up belden or canare cables.
Would it be more cost effective to invest in a high end power conditioner from Furman? Or some other way to clean the noise?
Power conditioners do remove some noise but are not the noise killer solution most think they are. Better than not having one, but it isn't a full solution, those are so cost prohibitive as to only make sense if you have a system in the over 50k price range as there are a ton of other things to make the whole sound experience better you can do before that level of expense, for instance room treatment, better gear, or therapy to learn how not to worry too much.
So what gauge Wire does a good speaker have to the speakers and cross overs internally? i used to have that Tuner with an Integrated Amp in the late 70's
I use twisted RG-8 pairs to my speakers from now on. I don’t want microvolt radio signals rectifying in my output stage.
I totally agree with you about the general behavior a cable can have, acting as a filter or antenna.
But as a engineer of electronics, I widely disagree with the testing setup you chose to demonstrate potential effects of loudspeaker cables on your stereo:
For your video, you connect the cables to the antenna input of a tuner. Off course, the tuner input stages, used to deal with those very low antenna voltages will pick up the noise as any antenna signal.
And, yes, twisted or even shielded cables will result in lower input signal to get amplified by those FM input stages.
But in real life, we do connect those cables into the output of an amplifier, from there going into the speaker. Both power amp-out and speaker in-are low resistance (4-16 Ohm for the speaker, and most often a fraction of this on the amp output). This will shortcut the high frequencies with such antenna-like low voltages completely if the amp is built properly with a grounded housing.
My conclusion and experience:
if anny noise from the air creates noise in your system fed-in from the speakercables, something is wrong with the amp - and, yes, it can happen with cheap gear or a damage in the electronics.
A totally different thing, not adressed by you here, is that twisted cable designs can positively impact cable capacity and inductivity, resulting in finer details getting to the speakers more accurately. But also here, I doubt the extreme promises of the audio accessory industry and the dealers, lurking for some extra revenues. And what nobody tells us is the fact that complicated twisting makes the effective cable lengt go up by a factor, resuling in higher Ohms between amp and cable - not a good thing at all!
Looking at the speaker cables at large concerts (huge speaker arrays and power amps), they mostly use non-twisted but very large diameter cables, made from good copper, connected with the professional Speakon plugs that provide extremely good connection with the amp and the speaker terminals. What makes those cables a bit more expensive than the "Wallmart telephone string" is the shere diameter and the highly ruggedized and flexible and robust outer hull.
Some years ago I spoke whith a nice sales guy of a famous German cable company, seeking for some advice. In a nutshell, he told me "Yes, we also produce some of those multiply twisted loudspeaker cables just because we have the machinery for it. We sell those cores to different companies that finalize the cables, attach some golden bananas, and sell it for incredible prices to all those idiots in the market that would better spend their money to improve their room acoustics."
Exactly.. All well said..
How do you think something like a canare (4-wire) star-quad would do compared to some of the braided options? I've had good luck with both star quad for XLR interconnects and speaker wire.
Some of the star Quad wire is very good. Some of the braided geometry does go to another level though.
What is the reference cable you use?
This is a good example of why noise rejection is important for interconnect and line signal cables. Speaker cable inductance and capacitance are important factors, but it is not for noise rejection as shown in this demo.
That is not correct. Loudspeaker cables can pick up gigahertz RF from CPUs e.g. computers, etc. where they literally act as an antenna, and feed it *backwards* into the amplifier, only to be re-amplified as a larger magnitude of....noise.
@@stephenscharf6293 Speaker cables inductance and capacitance are of no significance to the sound because of the very low values and the associated impedances involved. While they can and do act as antennas and pickup RF energy, a well designed and built amplifier's output impedance even at RF frequencies is low enough such that the RF level should be low enough such that the RF voltage fed back to the input is not sufficient to be detected by the front end circuitry. A simple test with a .1uF capacitor placed across each speaker output can be done if one suspects such an RF problem.
@@MrsZambezi Tell that to John Atkinson of Stereophle who measured its impact.
Thank you so much for this video. I recently viewed it and realised I had spent far too much money on braided, unscreened power cables. Because I only heard marginal improvement over bog-standard cables, I mistakenly believed there was little point bothering with 'better' cables. After viewing your video, I purchased two very cheap (£23 each) screened power cables which transformed my Echo Studio speaker from just about OK to almost hi-fi. I have since replaced all my power cables and it's transformed the music. I also replaced my speaker cables with CAT5. What a difference that made! This has been the cheapest major upgrade to my system ever. Please keep sharing your knowledge and experience.
what you probably heard was a slightly louder signal due to a lower resistance cable.
i dont buy this experiment either.
So, if i understood this correctly the wire which takes up less signal to the receiver is the better option, correct?
hi, nice point there that you showed us. so whats that cable brand and model , are there any cables like that you could recommend in europe market?
czcams.com/video/DfjQJxeTANE/video.html
Sorry not convinced, if you contact the chipset cable in the world to loudspeaker with out any amp connected you will not hear anything coming from your speaker , no noise no radio station, there is noise on the cable but you will not be able to hear it
At all it is simple not significant when you listen to music, inter connects are different because what they pick up is amplified a lot but speaker cable , sorry no
In my experience and likewise for thousands of others, it is very easy to hear the effect of the noise on the system.
Yes there is noise on any system but not because of speaker cables , they add noise but it has a so small that it will be no be possible to hear , it will be like hearing a man talk from 50 miles away , just do the experiment disconnect your cable from the amp and see if you can hear anything at all
@@dedyvideo You are speculating on it's audibility. I'm speaking from experience.
And the point of this wasn't just to show a difference on speaker cables. These same differences take place with all the cables in the system.
@@johhnyappleseed9989 We've done the side by side comparisons. We've even used average listeners as test subjects, and the differences are easy to hear especially with tube connectors.
@@johhnyappleseed9989 how do you know?
The network world figured this out years ago, which is why there are standards for network cable. These extra twist/braiding significantly reduces noise and based on cable type Cat5e, vs Ca6, Cat6a, Cat7, allows for more bandwidth for the same distance of wire.
The problem with most network cables is they carry high-source impedance leakage currents, which causes increased clock phase noise for digital signals, and the impact of clock phase noise is audible.
Audio versus RF (tuners) => apples versus oranges, audio versus network cables => apples versus peaches
@@hugobloemers4425 Actually, RF impacts all of these cables, and even more so for digital in the networking world. While it may not prove they will sound tonally different, twisted pair will reduce noise and is a proven fact. You cannot send 10Gb of even 1Gb of data for 100 meters on Cat3. While the Cat6 and higher use the same copper, it is the amount of twist they use and the termination which allows higher bandwidth and reduce rf over the 100 meters. While there are some shielded network cables, the majority are unshielded and use twist (or you can use braiding) to reduce interference. IEEE creates these standards and can be verified on IEEE.org.
@@mickyd3 This is nonsense. Cat 3 cables don't encounter crosstalk issues until 16,000,000hz. Audio stops at 20,000hz. 20,000 vs. 16,000,000. Cat 6 cables don't encounter crosstalk issues until 250,000,000hz. Cat6a cables are clean to 500,000,000hz. So each of these cables, which are differentiated by their construction, all have different bandwidths they can pass without any alteration or issue. We can measure this.
We don't take a ScanSpeak 18W and exclude it from our system due to it's poor response at 15,000hz. We consider the application of the driver and understand the frequencies it will pass and we are uninterested in it's performance at 15khz because that signal will be filtered out by our crossover network or DSP. We also don't choose our drivers based just on one response, we look at THD, impedance, and spl all over frequency as well as other things.
So then why should we take cables meant to transmit amplified analog signals to drivers and consider ONLY their performance 15,980,000hz outside of their passband. Or in the case of Danny's test the lowest FM radio frequencies are 88,000,000hz... so that's 87,980,000hz outside of the passband of the cables.
@@OpeKoney Actually, it's across all frequencies, especially when these are run near electrical panels which is obviously 60hz. Your information is incorrect. There are standards to keep all Cat3 and higher cables away from high current such as electrical panels. We (Datavox) install these all of the time ,so my team is very well informed on these standards
I totally buy the way that the noise is no longer allowed in the cable.
Basing my assumption that these cables are set up between the amplifier and speaker, I am curious how much the noise actually affects the sound - is there a way to show a percent of the amplified signal that the unfiltered noise becomes? Put another way, I can't hear a cd player to amplifier signal, the signal traverses to the amp and goes from lets say a level of 1 to a level of 100. That signal at 100 is then passed to the speakers. Does the unfiltered noise incoming through cables create an audible effect, given it is not amplified?
And can you help me understand how this can be applied to digital signals between components? My understanding is that a 0 or 1 is a 0 or 1 - though may have some "rounded corners" on the signal. Insofar a 1 is still a 1 when the rounded corners are taken into affect, why would it matter?
Thanks!
What kind of cable are you using for your reference system speakers? That looks pretty nice.
czcams.com/video/DfjQJxeTANE/video.html
Wire termination gives me another idea. Since amplifier output impedance is very low, Danny's RF pickup test should be conducted with the leads at the end of the speaker wire shorted together. I know what the result will be.
This test only shows how much RF noise is picked up by different cable geometries, nothing more, nothing less... This test doesn't show anything about how a cable in and of itself affects the sound quality of the music signal flowing through it, this test ONLY shows how much different types of cables can pick up additional RF noise. While this IS one relatively minor aspect to consider in finding a good cable, there are many other, even more important cable "qualities" to consider first.
One question to ask here though, is if the braided cables act as filters of high frequencies, then (theoretically at least), wouldn't those same cables slightly attenuate the subtle details of the highs in the music signal passed through them, at least of the musical harmonics above 20KHz or so?... The frequency harmonics of music from 20KHz to at least 40 or maybe 50KHz or so still add some life, depth, and realism to the overall sound and tone of certain musical instruments for example, and that has been talked about for decades in the hi-fi audio industry, so you wouldn't really want a cable that filters out any of the high frequencies would you??... Any thoughts on that?
As per your first paragraph, correct! It was to show just one aspect of the cable. And the braided cables can filter out some of that RFI without effecting the audio signal and everything that we want to be maintained.
I own a KEF LS50 Wireless System. The only cables involved are the power cables to the speakers and one CAT6 cable interconnection between the two speakers. Question: Would a high quality CAT8 cable be any better than an Audiophile grade CAT6 with silver content in it? Does this principle apply to the digital signals as well?
long and short of digital signals is that theyre made up of absolutes, and as such they work in absolutes, too - they either work, or they don't work. effectively as long as it works without glitches, cheap/expensive will have the EXACT same sound, because it's digital, that's the point. but, higher quality cables will potentially work longer distances with fewer issues, so there's that.
Can I buy the filtered cable from you guys!?
Record 2 different cables, then sum the 2 signals out of phase. This should show any differences.
The experiment would be cleaner if the speaker cables were terminated at a free end with some 8 Ohm resistor or even shorted (simulating connection to an amp output).
A speaker isn't a stable load.
The radio is a high impedance circuit while the output transistors dampened by a 8ohm speaker is a low impedance circuit. The tiny current created over lets 0.2 ohm resistance in transistors gives a miniscule voltage. In the radio circuit the resistance would be in the thousands of ohm so using Ohm's law, voltage = current x resistance(high value here from the high resistive impedance radio circuit) would give some useful voltage affecting the VU meter in this example. There is no measurable voltage beeing able to build up since its shorted out by the low impedance of the speaker circuit..
@@mordante01 So? Why does it matter?
@@IliyaOsnovikov You cant affect any circuits in the amplifier without voltage. So its a hard proof that any speaker cable can't act as an antenna. Also in class D you have output capacitors in parallell with the speaker shorting out any RF. Regarding signal cables there might be some thruth to this since input impedance is much higher.
@@impuls60 Exactly, that's why good interconnects come with shielding, while speaker cables don't.
Would this test work for power cables?
What speaker cable do you use what brand is it ?
czcams.com/video/DfjQJxeTANE/video.html
do you know that you can calculate cable inductance? do you know that this value will be negligible compared to amplitude of the signal generated by the amplifier? even if it is such a problem that it occurs, it is eliminated by shielding the cable or in the case of stage equipment using differential transmission
In the 60's kids were used for moving antennas and for changing channels.
😂😂😂😂😂
Does the same topology apply for power cables..would you like to know more about the terminations and the effects ..does it mean no termination is the best way?
What is the general consensus on adding ferrite cores to speaker cables???
I tried some ferrites from aliexpress; I couldn't detect any difference but left them on the 10+ meter 12AWG OFC cables I use on my rear towers, however I ended up putting them on the inside of the terminal mount positive wire only.
PS Audio's Paul McGowen said they can choke the sound so I took them off the front towers but really didn't notice any improvement or decline and I really couldn't hear them choking, gagging or even coughing a bit.
Those braided cables sure do "Look" cool, I know I'm gonna have to get some one day
Damn, judging by the comments, avoiding creating a big controversy did really work out well... 🤣
Can you recommend specific cable brands/ models that you think are good value? Maybe even diy?
I am a budget audiophile and don't put a lot of stock in expensive cables. I do put stock in using good wire, good connectors and good assembly of them. SO I went cheap but it had to have the above so I went with ones by Worlds Best Cables because it uses Canare L-4E6S, Star Quad, Audio Interconnect Cable and Amphenol ACPR Gold RCA Connectors. Z Reviews has been using them as well.For speaker cable I went DIY with Canare 4S6 Star Quad speaker cable and bananas. ends being about an 11 AWG cable, nice and thick and good flexibility. SO my whole system is wired with Canare wire which is a professional/recording/touring brand of wire. Mogami would be a good choice as well..
If there is no rf demodulator to recover some sort of audio frequency interference and some means to inject it into the speaker drivers, what does it matter?
FM is broadcast in Megahertz (1,000,000) range, amps put out hertz to kilohertz (1,000). I fail to see how my stereo will pick up interference from a frequency it can not receive.........
I just watched the best speaker cable for a FM antenna test at a certain frequency between 87 MHz and 108 MHz. Why not run a reference audio signal from 20Hz to 20KHz and look at it on an oscilloscope? -16 dB of FM signal may produce a signal on a FM tuner (it is demodulated and amplified) but will not have an effect on a speaker cone and BTW RF signals are hitting your speakers all the time even when there are no wires connected.
I have witnessed how expensive cables sounded better to the seller and owner but not to the guy that wasn't willing to shell out the cash. However I will agree there are proper cables for a particular application and should be used as such. I am in lockdown on Christmas Eve trying to entertain myself, already had enough to drink and eat.
To get the best out these premium cables, wouldn't you also have to install them inside the speaker boxes?
That is exactly what I have done. I put Tempo Electric solid core silver wire inside my speakers, and also have the exact same wire going from amp to speaker.
law of diminishing returns - hopefully the runs inside the speaker boxes are much, much smaller than the runs outside the box and therefore the marginal improvement of higher quality cables between the binding posts and the drivers compared to the effort makes it an effort that's not quite as effective in improving quality
Yeap. Then wouldnt better crossover parts improve the sound? Yeap, the ones in series with the drivers. Then wouldnt better drivers improve the sound? Yeap, but the new ones are unlikely to fit the cabinets.
*BAM!*
Welcome to diy loudspeakers & hifi :D
@@karlcotleanu4144 Don't forget to put (replace) all wires in side your PC, DAC, Preamp and power amp. Don't for get the circuit trace as well. I am sure it will block all signals.
Not just in side the speaker box but every where from power cord, all the wire out side and in side PC, DAC, Preamp, powerampand, interconnect and etc... Don't for get the tracing of the circuit board too.
Yes the last one rejects RF the best but is it the best at transmitting the signal from your amp to your speakers?
I would say, the last one was just shorted at the other end...
just for shits an giggles, i wonder if shielding an a lowpass filter at say 20khz - 40khz would have similar effects?
Blind testing seems like a proper way and since the system has such a low noise floor it may be a good test bed. I changed my speaker cables in my system and my son immediately picked up a change but I think it may have been related to the better speaker connectors rather than the wire itself. I don’t know what it was but it did sound clearer and more open - voodoo maybe but that was my personal experience. My concern with the measurement only crowd is regarding if the right measurement(s) are used or even exist. I mean to say we observe or perceive things everyday where there are no measurements that you can point to in order to validate the observation.
Yeah, it's usually the engineer types who believe in measurements by machines and others who simply believe that they have noticed differences by changing various cables in their systems. Personally, I think that various aspects of wiring/cable do have an impact on ultimate sound quality coming out of a speaker system. It's really just a question of how much of a difference and if that difference is audible. The other problem is the virtually infinite possible combinations of cable/equipment that can have unique interactions. Synergy between equipment like amplifier and speaker is one such example that I have personally experienced in very clear ways.
Wouldn’t noise rejection be most pertinent in signal cabling due to the high input impedance of most all amplifiers? The far lower impedance of speakers and inherent inductance of the speaker itself would be enough to filter out a large majority of any RF noise, no? Not saying that they don’t make a difference, but I feel like most any perceptible change in noise floor would be orders of magnitude higher with a swap in interconnects, especially if they are single-ended. Also, what about differential outputs? Since both lines are picking up the same noise, wouldn’t there be a (nearly) net 0 change in voltage across the speaker?
Amperage (current) would be the difference with driving speakers.
Mr flimflam fremdippity danyet Yes. Lower impedance (higher current) circuitry is less susceptible to RFI. High impedance gain stages in tube amplifiers have to be well-isolated with very short leads to reduce pickup for this very reason.
This reciever had transformer coupled outputs. I am somewhat surprised today that there was not enough winding to winding capacitance to make that 1pf cap just a drop in the bucket. We did put a thermometer on top of the reciever for a few hours to see if it was getting hot, but no change was noticed and the capacitor was not hot either. Those must have been good output transformers... My dad said he thought the noise might have been radiating inside the chassis from the wires between the speaker terminals and the transformer. No clue and that reciever is 20 years gone now.
@@kevinroosa1315 this is the very reason to use wire capable of lower impedance when possible or practice. I could see how higher impedance would be much more susceptible to RFI disruptions. I believe that is the idea behind using something like a lower impedance wire intertwined between itself to induce a field to cancel out unwanted disturbances. In theory this makes total sense. It's also seems the higher frequency components for a speakers crossover would also be more susceptible to Rfi interruptions. The more isolated the better. Placing resistance in line with the tweeter should in theory would have a similar filtering effect. If I had a choice, i would rather the higher range just be isolated especially from larger coils that generate more induction.
@@jdrissel could have been a capacitor going out.
Wow!!! I really learned a lot from this video!! I've subscribed, you sir are a great teacher!! Thanks and please keep up the good work!
I think I once tried some "super cables" but the braided shielding caused too much inductive reflections and ghosting in the audio signal. I distanced myself from them shivering, but would not discourage anybody from purchasing them. Copper prices may skyrocket one day, too.