Advanced Comms: Is the MPU5 the Future of Radios?
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- čas přidán 9. 06. 2024
- In this video Adam is joined by Kyle from Persistent Systems to talk about the MPU5 Radio and the Wave Relay Network. We've gotten a lot of questions about "the radio with three antennas" and this video is a good introduction to what Persistent Systems has to offer.
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0:00 Intro
1:07 What is the MPU5?
4:17 The Wave Relay Network
10:50 The “Brain” of the Radio
12:00 Is it Waterproof?
14:42 Where is the screen?
18:41 Who is this radio for?
22:06 The PTT
25:15 How Far Can You Transmit?
30:50 Why Three Antennas?
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Music License:
MB01X9LTHXJJQRF - Zábava
And since you all are inevitably going to ask.... yes, these are legal to own for civilians. What types of radios are you all using?
Citizens
I ordered some baofang commie tracking devices that I’m psyched never showed up and I got a refund on. I ordered them before looking in to the options and functionality differences at all. Another cool piece of gear to grab is a “SLNT bag”, their dry bags are multi functional and can assist you in going completely dark in the event of a peer on peer conflict where they have the capability to track radio frequencies.
BOOFWANG GANG
Two cups and string gang
these things probably cost as much as a car :P
Bro... I can't even figure out my XTS 2500/PRC153... now you're throwing in all this new stuff. Now I know how my grandma felt when I had to explain her TV remote.
Comms are more capable than ever, but they are also more complicated than ever.
MPU5 is designed to be more simple than ever. They have apps developed for the RDC that autodetect video input, ethernet adapters allow for control of camera gimbals and other robotics and most of it is just plug and play. The manet network autodetects and adds nodes. Any single one of these capabilities on other radios requires a lot of training - It's quite impressive.
I'm a Marine RO, and seeing an episode from one of my favorite companies talk about comms puts a massive smile on my face. Thanks Spirtius Systems.
Same here, bud. Just graduated from 29 palms!
Trelliswares radios beat the dog shit out of this on almost every metric.
No. That isn't even close to true. @@iandoyle3695
but they do not talk lol. They do not have the chance
Yeah, that isn't true at all. Ask anyone who is using a 163. @@iandoyle3695
It took the first 5 mins of this video for me to finally realize what made this device special. Thanks for breaking it down somewhat for simpletons to understand
Commo nodes are the first things to go in a LSCO fight. These are leaps and bounds ahead of the traditional radios that we grew up with during GWOT.
DoD has been pushing mesh-based net-centric warfare for over 30 years now. Army and Land Warfare units are way downstream of a lot of the evolution in this space since priority goes to Aerospace. It's finally trickling to the lowest-level, almost inconsequential elements now.
It'd be interesting to hear a bit more about how it performs in a contested RF environment when you have things like jamming or other EW assets at play. That seems to be the big difference between the MPU5 and the Silvus radios. MPU5 has a ton of features from layer 2 and up, but seems to lack in things like the waveform or even the ability to do proper TX beamforming which is pretty surprising.
Although there was a job opening a while ago for an RF engineer with SDR experience, so maybe that's gonna change with the MPU6.
In Aerospace, they've gone to narrow beam directional Low Probability Intercept Data Links on F-22A, JSF series, B-2A, B-21A. Not even CCIP I & II Late Block F-16CM+ has any of that.
FCC filings for the Wave Relay radio point to standard 802.11 specs.
Short answer...if your home wifi is susceptible to jamming, this is too.
Seems to me they took a Nighthawk router and gave it a DC power supply.
@@user-dk5vy3ui1o Shhhhh, you're not supposed to say that out loud!
@@fosatech Who will win? $15,000 MPU5 Rout- I mean radio, or $20 used laptop running Kali lol
@@ethanlee4175shhhhh. if you keep pointing out facts someone is gonna kick in your door and Epstein you 🤣
I am a General licensed ham and this vid is a head scratcher for me.
Its not a radio anymore in the traditional sense but like the wifi router that you have at home.
It doesn’t matter anyways. The radio alone is over 7k. And full set up is reaching over 10k
My little group of guys use Motorola xts5000, which is plenty good enough for us. The MPU5 is cool, but $20k - $30k for a communication setup as a Citizen is a waste of money in my opinion. You could use that money for training, ammo, preps, and etc... Most Citizen's would not use most of the features on the MPU5, but for military use, it would be extremely beneficial. Coordinating with different units, assests, command, and etc, from one unit is fantastic, but as a Citizen's, it doesn't make sense in the cost to benefit category.
Something similar at a lower price point would sell. I hope someone comes up with something. The demand is there.
Citizens don't need it, but the military does??? Just because citizens taxes pay for it? Any group of people could get great value from mobile comms like this... Just like a smart phone (which now cost $1000+ for some models) anyone could get value from this. Search and rescue, emergency response, event coordination, any use case where many people need to communicate over their own comms link... Especially in environments where the comms infrastructure does not exist or cannot be trusted. Yes, building comms networks cost $$$ but don't pretend civilians don't have a need for these as well. The only issue is funding... Get a group together to consolidate funds vs govt unlimited taxes and national debt to fund purchases.
@@TheBiggE.Exactly... Demand is there just like for computers, cell phones, smart phones, etc.
@@save2a4allhis point is that most civilians will never be able to afford a system costing almost $30,000, and most civilians are not coms experts and would not put in the effort to figure everything out.
@@whenindoubtgohiking8074 Exactly
It's also vital to aknowledge that with data routing and meshing radios, you are transmitting pretty much all the time with the radios sending data and saying hello to each other. That's ideal for an adversory with modern EW equipment to map out your troop's location, composition and organization with your constant EM output. Utilizing EMCON should be common knowledge, if you have a radio, you should know when to not use it.
This is one of my favorite videos you’ve put out
News flash, Spiritus gives them a YT commercial in exchange for $50k worth of radio equipment. Big help 👍
douchebags
Why would you say things that are not true?
I love it when Adam talks nerdy! 🥸🥸🍺🫵🤟🇨🇦🫡🇺🇸🤟🫵🍺🥸🥸
I just want to say thank you guys for sharing this amazing info technology to this mortal and i think many old and new RO are having a good time watching this video. Great job 👏 thanks again 👍
Another episode on stuff I can't afford, but I will drool over nevertheless. Great stuff! Thank you for putting this stuff out to the world!
Awesome video! Thank you Adam and Kyle..
Excellent overview of the MPU5!
Wow, engineering excellence combined with real world uses and bullet proof. Thanks for video
In my unit we called this radio the Net warrior ii system. We ranMBITR2 types. I also used the Net warrior on back in the day. The new radio was dope, much portential and flexibility. I was the Plt RTO for Net warrior 1 and Company RTO for Net warrior 2. I felt like playing a vidoe game, battle tracking was a breeze, command and control relayed beautifully. We used it greatly during training ops. It was cool to text Battalion or text the bird in the air. I would pack the old radio and my commander actually kept it old school and wanted to talk on the man packpack. It made me think of Nam and the on song playing. Iron6R
Keep these commo videos coming!
Thank you so much for this video!
Please also do a review on their Dual PTT and their ATAK system.
there will definitely be more to come
@@chrisspiritus9043 You guys are the best 😎
It's called the "Rugged Display and Controller" mate, and I approve this request. 😎🇺🇸
It's painful to watch the incremental obsolescence in motion over the past 30 years.
Helmet-based interface was already done quite well with Land Warrior, but the Army has gone backwards to a chest-mounted tablet display.
AeroEs need to step in and unjack this whole disconnected tech evolution spaghetti in the Army.
@@LRRPFco52its better to have every soldier with a phone on their chest then half with a one eye half of a sunglass display
Awesome video and great gear! What I'd love to see is how to set up a squad/plt comms system with people running mostly baofengs or similar lower end radios for the prepared citizen. Basically a "how to squad comms structure".
Guerilla Guide to BAOFENG, it's a book, squad up!
Been a huge fan of wave relay since the early MPU4 days. But I also love on Sylvus radios as well
I just learned SDR now I gotta check this thing out. WOW!
🗿
@@fosatech I'll check out your stuff, thanks.
I think it would be interesting to see a deep dive video just on the screen. As trivial as it may seem, I'd love to see some of the pros and cons of using it versus other end user devices and the functionality that can be leveraged through various APKs for different use cases. Obviously the MPU5 gets a lot of diverse use, so the sky is the limit, but I think demonstrating some of its more unique capabilities would help people realize why the MPU5 is a worthwhile investment.
Pretty freaking neat but I’m more in the uv5r with a Nagoya antenna budget. I feel like I gotta add that if an fcc reaper blows me up I’m ok with that lol I understand the application for this pricey bad boy but realistically for the bulk of us dumb poors in this comment section have plenty of other sheet to worry about
It can still be DF'd and eliminated.
You don't have to give a crap of what they said.
You are more in the anti-radiation missle seeking onto me with the potential of killing my whole family budget
Seriously rarely use it to transmit only listen and transmit in emergency look into meshtastic its also very budget friendly and safer/encrypted etc. and is what should be used for non emergency mesaaging that dont need voice as well as atak integration
@@OrbitalBurn1 you think the MPU5 can't be DF'd?
@@yuval5628 um, I said it could.
I feel like I just watched Adam complete (and pass?) an oral exam on the MPU5 proctored by a guy from Persistent. lol.
The way the other dude gently nods at him as he fumbles his way though it is heartwarming.
More COMM material!
Coming from Ukraine, would love more on how these handle in contested environments where EW is a common thing. Also, love these longer form videos, but also miss the two minute/team room Tuesdays
Great video. Would love more info on the ppt and atak integration.
I'm just a regular guy. So I understood about 20% of this video.
Ran many ops with a 163, and it is excellent for small inter-teams Coms and even pushed long distance. But the capability really expands when you throw a 158 in the mix in a squad which pushes that TSM out much further, in effect joining multiple nets.
The 163 sucks in my experience. It overheated and the battery drained faster than any radio I’ve ever used. Even when it was turned off.
What I find most interesting is this "radio" runs Android OS, specifically Android 9 Pie (at least according to their website). With that in mind I wonder if the older OS is vulnerable to some CVE's. Additionally, it would be interesting to see someone build out the same functionality on AOSP and be able to port it to any device.
It runs WR OS2.2 which is a Android 9.0 compatible but does not have the vulnerabilities and is maintained and constantly upgraded per Firm ware for free against RED team attacks
@@robertelliott9179 "WR OS2.2" did you mean to type "wear os 2.2"?
Either way I'm doubtful about android being a good choice.
@@LabiaLickerwhy?
This is fantastic!😮😮😮😮
I'm gonna edge to Adam.
G8888888y 🤢🤮
I’ve seen a small array of different antennas on them, it’d be cool to see a segment on their different capabilities and uses.
Awesome video! You mentioned a lot of people not having good experiences with the PRC-163’s, i was curious to know what you heard about them? I’m by no means a radio expert, but I’ve used the 163 and the 152 a fair bit and I’m a pretty big fan of the 163, atleast in comparison with the 152, as my only radio experience is military radios such as the 117, 152, 153 and now the 163. What are your thoughts?
I'd love to see a video like this for patrol/tactical radio setups for civilians. I really had a hard time trying to figure out my comms setup bc there just aren't a lot of options out there. And most of the best HAM channels don't focus on how to use the radios in a combat role. Most, if not all, radios and support equipment are geared for military use and radios civilians can't get. So content going over that would be amazing.
You wouldnt use HAM for combat roles, especially not in team communications. GMRS would fulfill that role.
Wow, that's awesome!!! 😳
Army 25U, I got to use these with the EUDs along with the bots, only problem I noticed was that the PTT was very finicky and prone to being damaged and a source of failure.
Marine 06xx here. My unit has old radios--we just got rid of our last 150. We mainly use RT-1796s, 1949s and 1916s in their various forms. I also own some MBITRs. I would love the chance to get my hands on some of these, but I'm not sure I could justify the use case for our mission. I'm sure we could make more use out of the old 148s too other than taking them out of the cage and counting them once a week.
Come to 2nd MLG we have some fun high speed stuff MPU5/EUD , Starlink/router, I’m a 0631 btw and I’ve had a chance to mess with it all. one thing I will say about mpu5 it really fit my units mission set
Neither of you have RAID plates on your CMR yet, huh? That suuuuucks.
I use MPU5 IP radios in my work - Silvus and Domo Tactical, too.
I’m interested in hearing about rf emission control with this system. Can the user decide when or what type of broadcasts the radio is making while retaining the ability to receive?
Could you do your next video segment on operations in a contested environment? I would love to know how it performs against EW threats.
I'd also be curious how SATCOM or call for fire missions are completed using just an MPU-5 since you made reference to a JTAC not needing to carry two radios anymore.
I've not used either yet, but from what I've heard and read, Silvus seems to be the better option on that end. Also, the 802.11 hardware doesn't instill a ton of confidence from a security perspective, but I'm sure they've addressed that.
Still would need to have a roiped satcom or green radio if that’s your thing. The idea though is that 1 person carrying 2 radios gives the manet/local group the capability of both radios without each individual physically carrying them
my unit used these, and we had to run the ROIP cable to their 152s, but we made a ROIP Chanel net on the programming software so it eliminated the need to have dual PTTs and run another 152 for another net.
Please do more videos explaining commo. I would like to see more non-mil/civ sheepdog set ups. Thanks.
How is key management handled? The spec page mention AES counter mode, but what level is encrypted?
What am I supposed to do with info about a $10,000 radio that would have to be purchased several times?
This is something that should be set up at ALL times (even in Garrison), so that EVERYONE depending on these systems can not only become familiar with them, but maintain their proficiency with the capabilities. In the SOF world, they should be using these systems for EVERYTHING, from range operations to jump operations to exercises. Not only should the long-tabbers be running these systems at ALL times, but so should the support communications dets/companies. It's great that these systems are running ROIP, but in the end, the system needs a gateway (Joint Base Station?) to be able to extend out. The real "sticking point" will be when Big SOF communications (112th SIG, JCSE, etc.) fall in on top of another Organization (SFG, etc.) and work together. This needs to be constantly worked and exercised so everyone knows how it all works. What you DON'T want to happen, is OIF I, when SF Groups were all of the sudden given Platoons/Detachments of Communicators that they had NEVER worked with before and had NO idea how to employ them correctly.
I retired in 2011, after 22 years as a communicator. 17 years on Jump Status and 15 of those years supporting Special Operations in SOCEUR Sig Det, QRC/JCSE and 7 years at 10th SFG.
Nice, thanks for sharing
holy fck the amount of acronyms here
This is great, and it has its place, but the nature of the system means that you're essentially heartbeating and at semi-regular intervals on whatever network frequencies it's working on. Seems like a great way to vector a df station in on you based on your rf signature. And yes, ip anything is still just an rf wave with different modulation. Whether or not you can understand it, you can still df it.
163s are definitely an upgrade to 152s due to the addition of TSM, cross banding, and the ability to connect your atak to the radio. It’s mainly only good for RTOs though because it’s too complex for an infantryman or even fires. Our Commexs aren’t usually “oh yeah your cables fucked” it’s more of “oh you had three different settings that were wrong.” TSM does work fine on them. Idk much about MPU5s but everyone claims they’re the next best thing since you can create a mission plan on just one of them then broadcast it to all the other radios so you don’t have to load every radio individually due to pretty much setting up a server that the other mpu5s can join
Radio over ip…hackable. Curious to know how resilient protection is with how versatile this device is. The Media having access to the device means they can hop on other devices and listen/ watch in/on after a quick hack or ip-hunting.
Adversarial-5GW capabilities can easily take this down if the wave relay crashes (passes) over a specific location?
Where is the warm and fuzzy on the security of the device? I’m seeing holes in this cheese. Getting in touch. Nice video!
Wave Relay is tacticool for Wi-Fi.
Would love to hear how these more advanced MANET systems can operate with legacy systems that are already fielded. More specifically would there be a benefit to a single mpu5 integrated into a team operating on p25/dmr platforms?
Not necessarily. The benefit would come from replacing existing radios with mpu5’s and roiping one of your p25 platforms to the mpu5. That way everyone has access to the roip over the Manet plus the MIMO benefits of mpu5
I am curious if the videodecoding is done in AV1 as this would save a lot of throuput
kyle is so fucking dreamy
Hopping does not make you loose bandwidth, it only adds latency due to processing. Only if you have multiple streams at the same time they share the total bandwidth, as radio communication is a shared medium at the end.
I appreciate the video and the extensive knowledge of both of these individuals. However they definitely talked over my head for about 20 minutes before they brought it into knuckle dragger terms but none the less they did intrept for me
This seems a lot like the radio portion of the CS14 system we were fielding in the 101st back in 2013-2014.
We actually got these in strike a few years back to replace all that garbage from CS14. God I hate those fucking 154s and EUDs
Finally. The radio world is generally like 15 years behind
How’s this different from the Harris 163 which can do more or the 171 which is similar
I'm listening as I work and I keep thinking I hear Adam say "mayonnaise" instead of MANET and it jolts me out of what I'm doing (radio programming, ironically) every. damn. time.
also, just hearing someone say 'interoperability' makes me glad. we emergency services radio people would love to hear it more
second also, I've been trying to research but I don't see anything on it, does this use native FHSS for EM adverse conditions or is it single channel broadband?
I think Kyle said like thirteen words total!
Adam, cut down on the caffeine gum!
Sheeeesh! 🤣
We been doing the same thing in Amateur Radio for a long time.
We ran ATAK through 152a’s using ANW2C waveform
Chat and CoT packets, probably worked fine, but I'm assuming you weren't pulling video, were you? How about points with a photo attached? We did some work with ANW2 years ago, it was cool but pretty limiting as I remember.
I'd be interested to know what kind of a footprint this system produces from a anti-signals warfare point of view. (If that's even a thing)
Aka: What is the threshold for detection by a hostile force? How disrupt-able is it? How easy is it to send false signals to a group using this gear? Etc.
Just think about how ubitquous wifi has come. Now realize that its on its 4th security revision (wpa3) and its still quite vulnerable.
This system is going to resemble swiss cheese.
Can someone explain the data loss when it uses hopping. I may have misunderstood what he said, but it sounded like he said about half the data was lost every time it hopped from one radio to another. That would not take many hopes to degrade the data enough to be unusable. So, I think I misunderstood what he said and would like some clarification on it. Thanks in advance.
Dos anyone know which Carhartt Cap he is wearing?
Im interested in whch is going to get more widely adopted, this or the PRC-163. I think the biggest difference is that the 163 is SiSO with manual adjustment, and i dont think it has the same ease of connectivity
Im curious, what does the MPU5 do better than the 163? The datasheet seems to list that it is able to do more than the MPU5 but im guessing that's mainly marketing hype.
What I understand; If you have 2 sectors you need a 3rd between to connect network and the 4th to pass info to the base because of the distance so at the base, 5th and 6th lets you hear and watch the 1st and 2nd cameras live on 2 monitors or a smart tv...That's the least amount you need to have.
Ok you've convince us.! How do we get a couple with all accessories & how much.? Cheers from Australia.
these are totally useless for us. Lookup Meshtastic. Something that actually makes sense.
Does spiritus sell a 163 radio pouch?
Inner Soul System vibrates in conscious or without. Step controllet inside n awareness of subtil energies which lure soul destiny n flips purpose sometimes...
Does ROIP effectively mean civilian legal secure comms?
Since there is no master mpu5, how do i prevent an enemy from connecting to the scaleable ip network and just collect all data? Is this system built on the principle of least priviledged access?
Solid question, or how bad is a rogue device on the network?
Nice. These advance comm radios behave as if they are in itself routers/relay-repeaters besides being receivers/transmitters.
It is using ROIP.
With their encryption or scrambling circuits, I wonder what lag do they have.
33:18 "The DB goes up when its a different polorization". Hmm In amateur radio we're taught that different polorizations cause signal loss as you have a vertical hitting a horizontal only that thin area that connects is getting the signal. Draw a "+" How much area is touching. Now Draw two "I's II" Much higher touching going on. Even in Digital modes.
GO AVS!
So you have to see another radio for it to work?
Damn it I want one… Having to memorize 16 or 32 channels without screen gone mess with team leads/commanders.
With it being basically wireless ip radio is fully EMP proof?
Is there a civilian version?
When you change the channel you will hear a voice in your headset that states the channel name.
The MPU5 is pretty great, but finicky in my experience. I will agree it is better than the 163. Most guys would rather use the 152.
Im curious, what does the MPU5 do better than the 163? The datasheet seems to list that it is able to do more than the MPU5 but im guessing that's mainly marketing hype.
We are getting these deployment kits in Civil Air Patrol for SAR.
Probably a limited response but what about jamming, burnthrough, capabilities, etc.. This is essentially a data link protocol without a necos. Cool system, but leaves me curious.
I need the deets on that side armor set up.
Just sitting here holding my Baofeng reassuring it that I could never leave it after all we’ve been through together 😂
What if the internet or your provider goes down? How does ROIP work then?
Oh. So thats why i had to take computer essentials in comm school back in 2013
It's really interesting to see that this sort of thing is JUST NOW being utilized in the exact way people thought mess networking could be. I set something similar up at work for our forklift operators....its a huge pain in the dick to program but, once it works all you can bitch about are the batteries lol
I like the fight club scene splice of KJU.
Question:
You have said that having some sort of JTAC on the ground is essential for operations with aircraft. Why is that? Why can't aircraft forego a guy on the ground, and what is that guy on the ground actually doing that sensors and electrooptics on the aircraft can't do?
JTAC is only there for CAS missions, where friendly forces are in close proximity to enemy forces and detailed integration from the ground to the air is required to safely conduct Close Air Support. As far as sensors, a JTAC is utilizing the sensors of the specific aircraft to the best of its ability in order to “talk the pilot on” to the enemy force. When friendlies aren’t in close proximity to friendly forces and detailed integration between the air and ground ISN’T required, that would be AI, or Air Interdiction
We run 163 and once it’s set up it works and only downside is it’s range isn’t the best but in normal conditions you maybe can do like 250 m
Im curious, how does the MPU5 compare to the 163? The datasheet seems to list that it is able to do more than the MPU5 but im guessing that's mainly marketing hype.
Like a ruggedized meshtastic with more IP features ... nice.
More akin to a ruggedized wifi router. Literally
So really late watching but I would wonder if the footprint of the MPU5 could have an alternative set of internals that increases is ability to bounce low frequency and enhance the simple data transmission and a local network scrambler so your devices and unmanned equipment could operate with mild assistance in signal strength, but make it an unrecognizable Picasso. Just a thought for folks who would like modern tech that has a small unit gone native in mind. I am not familiar really with possible home modifications or any serious use of these small high data units, but they seem like they're honestly only useful to a fully supported mechanized force. I do know that anything with an IP is more defensible, but only because you're opening yourself to a world of cyber and I live outside now Fort Eisenhower......Cyops cuddled up with the dissident surveillance service. Any minuteman kit recommendations would be appreciated. Feels like the Quatering act around here now that all the oath keepers walked away.
How dose one get one of these ?
I want one but man the price. And I have some crazy expense equipment but I need more use/need before I purchase.
So carry an extra radio and kit to tie into existing RF networks? Why not just carry 163 that has all the same capabilities?
163 isnt a MIMO solution, it’s still SISO just with 2 antenna. Agreed the 163 has access to waveforms the MPU5 doesnt, but the ability to ROIP with 1x 163 in a group and let everyone have the capability of both showcases the strengths of the mpu5 in a big way
@Tragic387 RoIP is nothing more than SINCGARs retrans, but unlike SINCGARs, is reliant on an extremely exploitable wifi network.
The 163 offers internal crossbanding of any networks (LOS, Dedicated SAT, Sling, MANET, etc) without requiring two radios, cables, and a screw driver to change frequency when you get jammed.
@@user-dk5vy3ui1o yep. It’s definitely not a do-all one ticket item. The retrans statement just keys up the 163 the same a ptt would. You don’t lose any capability since the 163 still needs to be present, but you also don’t have a 163 on each person - so there’s a larger emphasis on position and rf quality from the singular 163.
@@user-dk5vy3ui1oalso not tracking the screwdriver comment, what’s meant by that?
Im curious, how does the MPU5 compare to the 163? The datasheet seems to list that it is able to do more than the MPU5 but im guessing that's mainly marketing hype.
L3 punching the air rn.
Possibly 🤔
Great info! Now I just need to find $20,000 laying around somewhere
Seems like a awesome product.
With great capabilities.
But a bit pricey for my private budget.
Wonder if we could make a (obviously less capable) RTL-raspberry pi version or something. Or maybe holosun will launch something 🤣
I have a bunch of holosun products so this made me laugh 😂. PSA: Jakl: the acr at home. Holosun: *sees MPU5* hold my optic
Already I have seen units based on a ruggedized Portapack H2 HackRF with custom firmware.
So many systems...