Lincoln Navigator Low Power, P0171, P0174 - Fuel Delivery Testing
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- čas přidán 25. 07. 2024
- This is a perfect case study for those wanting to learn how to test for proper fuel pump pressure and operation. There were so many other good testing methods shown as well. Here is a list of them:
Topics covered
- how to use fuel trim at different RPMs to identify the type of lean condition
- O2 WOT test
- MAF WOT test
- fuel cut during the 1-2 shift as noted by the oxygen sensor signal
- fuel pressure test at idle and snap throttle
- causes of a fuel pressure bleed down problem
- purpose an operation of a fuel pump inertia switch
- how to locate fuses and relays on a Ford
- how to measure fuel pump current with a lab scope
- how to use initial turn on amperage of a DC electric motor to confirm good power and ground
- how to measure fuel pump RPM
- before and after fuel pump replacement numbers
Tools
- uActivate Circuit Performance Tester www.aeswave.com/cart.php?m=af...
- PicoScope 4425 4 Channel Standard Diagnostic Kit
www.aeswave.com/cart.php?m=af...
- S.U.R. & R FPT22 Deluxe Fuel Injection Pressure Tester Kit
www.jbtoolsales.com/s-u-r-r-f...
- S.U.R. & R FPT290 Deluxe Fuel Pressure Tester Adapter Kit (works with your existing kit)
www.jbtoolsales.com/s-u-r-r-f...
- Autel MS908PRO MaxiSYS Pro Diagnostic Automotive Tool w/J-2534 Reprogramming - USA Version
www.jbtoolsales.com/autel-ms9...
- uScope Master Kit 1-channel automotive scope
www.aeswave.com/cart.php?m=af...
Related videos
- Understanding Short Term and Long Term Fuel Trim (an SD Premium video)
• Understanding Short Te...
- Cold Air Intake Warning! (missing air filter case study)
• Cold Air Intake Warnin...
- Causes of lean condition trouble codes P0171, P0174 - GM 5 3L
• Causes of lean conditi...
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For more information on this topic, I have written a “field manual” called Engine Performance Diagnostics which is available at www.scannerdanner.com as an eBook or paper book.
Want even more diagnostic training? Whether you are a DIY trying to fix your own car, someone looking to become an auto technician, or a current auto technician that wants to get more into diagnostics, subscribe to ScannerDanner Premium www.scannerdanner.com/join-sc... There is a 14 day free trial.
On ScannerDanner Premium I will bring you right into my classroom at Rosedale Technical College. You will find page for page lectures taken right from my book as well as exclusive classroom type case studies. What is so special about these classroom case studies? I pull live problem vehicles directly into my classroom and we troubleshoot them in real time, using and applying the theory and testing procedures we learn during the classroom lectures. There is no better on-line training of how to troubleshoot automotive electrical and electronics systems anywhere!
Disclaimer:
Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, it cannot guarantee against unauthorized modifications of this information, or improper use of this information. ScannerDanner LLC assumes no liability for property damage or injury incurred as a result of any of the information contained in this video. ScannerDanner LLC recommends safe practices when working with power tools, automotive lifts, lifting tools, jack stands, electrical equipment, blunt instruments, chemicals, lubricants, or any other tools or equipment seen or implied in this video. Due to factors beyond the control of ScannerDanner LLC, no information contained in this video shall create any express or implied warranty or guarantee of any particular result. Any injury, damage or loss that may result from improper use of these tools, equipment, or the information contained in this video is the sole responsibility of the user and not ScannerDanner LLC. - Auta a dopravní prostředky
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I like seeing all the different causes of lean codes - great example here that it's not always intake gaskets or vacuum leaks!
For anyone who isn't subscribed to ScannerDannerPremium, I suggest you do - best bang for your buck you'll EVER find on the net! I'm always learning something new there, and I've been wrenching since a bicycle was my main mode of transportation (over 30 years ago).
I caught the date in the lower corner of the Verus there - 2 months back. Amazing how fast the leaves pop out those last couple weeks of April - could see the difference in your follow up weeks later. Best time of year, when the cold changes to warm. Nothing better. :)
missed the date on there myself questioned it below somewhere, lol.
Using your earlier fuel system videos I was able to diagnose a faulty fuel pump in my Mazda 3. Thanks for educating me and making me a much better diagnostician! Buy the book people. Thanks Paul!
FLI= Fuel Level Input
FF_LRND Pid indicates if a Ford is flex fuel capable and will indicate the inferred amount of ethanol in the fuel source.
Thanks so much!
Ahhh the Ford Jedi Master with the answer!! Thanks Brian!!
Robert S Ford should know he's one of there best assets he never talks bad about them and gives customers great info on common problems which all manufacturers have anyway!!
I love your videos , very helpful info, sometimes your long ones take me a couple days to finish watching, I look forward to see the outcome through each process of your diag , it's like watching a tv series and you can't wait for the next show.
Another awesome video. Always a pleasure and learning experience when you post a new technical video. Keep up the great work.
Scanner Danner Man I have watched a bunch of your video's really like the hands on real world approach your a good teacher and smart wrench
Excellent. This verifies a lot for me on the same issue I had with my vehicle. Thank you for the before and after graphs too.
Awesome Paul, perhaps the best video you've ever done regarding p171/174 lean condition. Thanks!!
Thanks Mike!
Nice video Paul, great to see you keeping the kids involved too!
for sure! Thank you
Seriously, this is good stuff.....for any car repair geek. Thumbs up to Mr. Danner
Incredibly detailed. Thanks! I'm currently experiencing the same codes on a 4.6l Triton and have been going nuts looking for a vacuum leak that apparently doesn't exist to begin with. I likely have a bad pump as my crank time is very long. My LTFT gets worse as I drive the vehicle but not so bad that I have any missing but I do have a great loss of power. I'll check the pressure tomorrow but I think I'm going to find that it's toast. The only variable in my diagnoses is the filter. I guess if my line pressure immediately drops off, as in this video, then it's the pump but if it holds it could be the filter (I pray)....
Great content.
On checking them micro relays. The control pins are diaginal so you can put the relay in either way up..putting a power n ground to the relay terminals would determine which is control so you could jump the remaining to to check your ampage.
That was a good tip on checking power n grounds using amp reading...nice
I got myself a pico 4223 today with hi n low amp clamps, various ignition leads and c.o.p testers. So im happy now.
Love the way you describe Ford's fuse boxs designations 😀
..."stupid Fords" :-)
Great job Paul, as always!!!
Paul, if the fuel pressure drops close to zero while power breaking the engine in drive, it is usually a good indication of a plugged fuel filter and also a weak fuel pump, just another real world test lol, great video!!
late checking in Paul. I've said it before.there is always gold in your vids.
For the pump RPM, at 33:25 I've noticed that next to 7.11 ms is shown 140.65 Hz which is in fact pump rotations per second and 140 Hz * 60 s gives 8400 rpm. Maybe little easier to calculate :) All your videos are very useful, greetings!
I love these videos. I wish my brain could just scan all of your videos and import the info into my brain lol
Thanks Jimmy
Very interesting video, thank you for making the effort to create it.
Unfortunately I do not work on cars anymore so no point in subscribing
to your premium classes. However I am learning to cook so if you could
do some lessons on making a nice Omelette I will sign up.
Thanks Paul great video !!
Great video production!
Nice ! Paul, great to see you teaching your son ! Great vid ! And dude that was the first time I ever saw someone determine if anti-freeze was anti- freeze by tasting it ! LOL ! Your one funny dude ! LOL Take Care !
Thanks Billy
As much as I love my Verus Edge my Pico is so much better. Snap-on has a long way to go if it wants to compete with Picoscope! Nice video Paul as usual!
If it was bad ground or something like that you fuel wouldn't drop right away after turning engine off.
I had that same problem with my 2003 explorer. I replaced the fuel pump with a new one from AutoZone and it kept giving me the same problem.
I was irritated at that point cause I thought the new pump was gonna fix that problem.
After a lot of more troubleshooting I came to the conclusion that the new pump was bad. So I took back out and for sure it was defective.
Took it back to AutoZone and they gave me another, put it in and fixed the problem.
I love watching scanner danner videos.
Great job. Also did a good job editing the video.
Thanks Paul and Caleb for share this. I love when you using mathematics and logic for repair.
Regards from Spain =)
haha I suck at math too
Thanks Pablo!
But you are very good using logic and that is the most important =)
thanks danner for this nice video God bless you
that was you in that lecture? I seen that and it’s the best video I learned so much from that
Great Vid as usual Paul.
BTW..on that relay, did you notice 2 of the 4 legs were in copper/brass.? that's you load side of the relay. The silver/tin is the trigger side. Just thought I'D mention that for the next time. AND Yes, I know... not all relays are like that. but when you do see the two different materials/color that's just one of many ways how to tell.
Cheers
Thank-you Sir. Very helpful.
Nice teacher explain very clear
Nice job!
Interestingly about that time my friend had a Ford Expedition that when cornering would lose power and stall. It turns out that the 5.4L engine had a glitch in the programming that would starve the engine of fuel when you cornered. This was a brand new vehicle too.
A natural camera man
So the first fuel pump was 8 bars the new one is 10 bars it doesn't matters as long as the fuel press stays in specifications nice video ScannerDanner thank you again
Hi Scanner Danner. I’ve been searching the web for the better part of a year (off and on), trying to find info on why my vehicle has lean codes on both banks. I can get the codes to go away for varying length of time, but they always eventually return.
I have a 97 Expedition 4.6, 260,000 miles. I’ve cared for her since I got her in ‘99 with 22,000 miles here in the Dallas area.
Most searches directed me to look for vac leaks. I’ve done all the standard things (check hoses, vac lines, etc.). Never made a difference. Same with MAF Sensor. I’ve replaced it, cleaned it. No help.
Your videos never came up in these searches until I started considering fuel delivery as a cause. I can’t remember why I started searching “Ford lean codes and fuel pressure”, but that is what finally got me to you.
I just never considered fuel problems before, because, just like this Navigator, my truck starts and seems to run pretty well (idle, shifting, no rattle or knock, etc.). My crank time isn’t anywhere near as long as this Navigator. But I guess over time, you don’t notice tiny changes in a vehicle you drive everyday (like you don’t notice your kids growing like grandparents do, since they don’t see them every day!). So maybe my crank time is longer than it used to be. And maybe she lacks power, but since it has been a gradual decline, I guess I don’t notice. Plus I drive like an old lady. :-)
Anyway, I borrowed a fuel pressure gauge from the auto parts store. When I hooked it up to the valve on the fuel rail, I thought for sure I did it wrong. KOEO I had ZERO pressure. Needle didn’t budge. After cycling the key to run 4 or 5 times, the highest it would get was about 14 psi. Once I started the truck, it got to 24 or 25 psi. So I tried the gauge on my son’s pickup, an 01 Ford Explorer Sport Trac, 166,000 miles. As soon as I turned the key to run, the pressure shot up to like 45psi or something. And then much higher with the truck running. So I really felt like I’d found my problem
I’ll be checking fuel trims when I get the inexpensive scanner I ordered. You taught me about those too. But I’m probably looking at getting a new fuel pump/sending unit here pretty soon. I guess 22 years and 260,000 miles isn’t bad for a fuel pump? :-)
Not sure if you read these comments. But I wanted to thank you. Dave
I read them all and I'm super glad you found me. This is where you need to be for this type of stuff :-) Don't forget to use me website forum too, it is free to join and we can help you with this type of stuff there too. www.scannerdanner.com
Nice detective work BTW!
Nice job Mr.D 🤟
Looking at the final LTFT numbers, I suspect there's a relatively minor vacuum leak, which was contributing to the lean condition along with the bad fuel pump. I'm willing to bet that the fuel pump was only just beginning to fail, and wouldn't have triggered the MIL if that vacuum leak hadn't also been present.
It would also explain why the car drove well and didn't drop lean under WOT/Snap Throttle conditions. Vacuum leaks are less significant at higher RPMs, and bad fuel pumps are more significant at higher RPMs, so the two cancel each other out to some degree.
Great case study here, Paul! It was awesome to see the before and after numbers!
I agree. It most likely also had a small vacuum leak at the end. I just wasn't about to make this video longer than it needed to be and honestly didn't care :-)
I would argue at 30% long term at higher rpms, those lean codes would have definitely still been there.
Haha, I totally get ya on the "didn't care" bit!
I'll concede to you on the 30% LTFT numbers potentially tripping the MIL. I felt like I was still seeing control in the STFT numbers, and my experience with GM vehicles is likely skewing my perspective of Ford's MIL strategy. :)
had a 2003 ranger last week bleed down just the same. owner put an airtex pump in it a yr ago. had an extended crank just like that!
Junk pumps for sure
nice one. btw, this is your best produced video to date. nice calm camera work. I'm gonna hold you to this standard in future videos. James Danner are you watching this? 😉☺
My son Caleb did a really nice job with the camera. Thank you!
A new camera man.! Give that kid a raise..did an excellent job.
I use Snap-on Blue Point relay pliers when Pulling relays
thank you so much!
Torn O-ring from Toyota dealership in tank fuel filter replacement, gave virtually identical symptoms.
I'm 4 mins into your vid and you got a fuel problem. I'm gonna bet it's a pressure regulator failing. Now I gotta wait till the end. Lol
I have a 02 navigator that starts perfectly then shuts off right away.. Any idea what it could be? Fuel pressure?
21: 19 not shameless plug 😊😊😊 dude you are really good at what you do 😊😊😊
OK back to watching and learning 😊
Thank you!
Looks like the new verus edge,,,,how is it over the pro as I thinking of upgrading
Thank U ScannerDanner
good job!
thank you!
Paul, when you talked about the RPM of the new pump, and questioned the RPM. The original pump was runnig at 100%. Like the verus showed. The new pump should have run at about 40% at idle.
Hi Paul...what is the difference between fuel pressure regulator and diesel regaulator valve (DRV)????
Hi Paul..diesel cars usually have two fuel pumps, low and high pressure fuel pump..In this case how will we determine which fuel pump is bad and needs replacement???? Plzzz advise..thank you.
a good additional video would be, open the filter and show built up contamination, pressure test regulator, pump check valve for bleed down and of course pump teardown. :)
Just a random tip for folks who have a no start condition. Slamming a trunk on a Ford can trip that inertia switch sometimes too. Now if it's not tripped, then as Paul shows need to look more deeply to pinpoint the problem. Happened to myself once, just a tripped switch.
had a student tow his car in for a no start, and I had to move the 2, 12" subs in the trunk to get to the inertia switch lol
@@ScannerDanner That could possibly it the vibration from the sound. Not always off course, but something to check out. 🙂
hello , please can you throw us a video about how proximity sensors works and how to trouble shooth
thanks for the video. i have a 98. s-10 i just change the fuel pump, because it stop
purging when i turn the key on engine off.
now when i took it to the gas station to fill up the tank it didnt want to start, trying about
5 times then it started roughly. i been also having that problem before, its like a rolling
type rough start.
do you know what else i can ck? all i got is a code reader & a test light.
your last video with the brakes i got some good tips & another back when u did the
a/c work on that jeep. those were useful tips, man thanks.
I have some videos on this system that may help you. First check is fuel pressure and then does it hold on shut down.
czcams.com/users/edit?o=U&video_id=yjQY613sql4
czcams.com/users/edit?o=U&video_id=09_wQ9yQ85A
czcams.com/users/edit?o=U&video_id=dAAFM3zlJME
czcams.com/users/edit?o=U&video_id=nYN-RoFVwAA
paul, those links are for your editing purposes? no video comes up!
im ordering a fuel pressure tester from amazon.
i have a 05 linc nav. when the engine is cold it drives ok but when it is warmed up while driving city or highway , i oress the gas to accelerate and no power even if when in the city and just at a stoplight it just slowly takes off or no take off at all.
How does your versus show a tsb tab at the main menu
Very lucky young mate, to have a dad like scanner danner
Thanks Paul if it was clogged filter I think the amperage would have been higher
I had a 2010 Forte Kia with a lean at high load code with the exact same symptoms . idle left adding raise rpm increase minus long crank time and no lack of power. wide open throttle 02 read Rich every single time. map engine actual and desired RPM matched at idle. did not check fuel pressure made a call on a PCM. dam. what was where is I used brake clean to richen the mixture at idle where I had soft counting left and it ran bad. Probably the brake clean. I thought the wot test was iron clad.
also the pcm threw a p0128 p2191 AnD p0638.
clogged filter possible also?
how old is this video, 39F ambient and 53F intake temps? I didn't think it was that cold recently?
points deducted for not having fuel pressure gauge with you :))
What should run in current be?
Do u have a video on Toyota or Lexus 3.3 lean conditions? My ltft on both banks are 52+ and the stft is about 9.4
you'll need to do some testing, starting with checking fuel pressure and for vacuum leaks as well as possible MAF sensor problems. I have videos on all of these.
hovering around 10% ltft does not really seem like a fix. Something is still amiss. Can you do any other tests on other systems to figure out this issue. Cheers
Put him on the payroll, he's doing an excellent job, scanner dancer, I'm a long time subscriber, so I insist on it!
I absolutely have man. He will be helping me all summer and I'm paying him very well. Thank you!
Nice to see a PARENT who insists on his teenage son to work, good for you Paul.....
That leak on to the coil pack is gonna be an issue. The rubber to plastic molding fatigues from heat and cool cycles and will eventually fail. Great work on that pump.
Done a bunch of those heater hose assemblies on Expeditions.
I would be have been concerned with that Alcohol content reading that you pointed out.
I am not sure the rules in DC electrical but in AC any load with a continuous use must be on a dedicated circuit. Meaning all motors. Is that not the same for auto? Also, wouldn't that same test work on any fuse that the fuel pump is connected regardless of other devices drawing power? 20 amps would register as 25 amps with additional load. Which you would know by the 5 amps present on the circuit prior to turning on the fuel pump or after the pump turns off with KOEO. So my question is why would you not just go to the fuse every time? Why only when the fuse is dedicated circuit can you use it?
Cavitation or leak on the suction side of the pump would account for the low pressure, low current and high RPM.
When working on a car, don't develop 'tunnel vision'. You have to look at the whole picture. It could be engine trouble. Test gauges malfunction and can give false readings. Replace gauges regularly.
What about the antifreeze leak dripping on the coil pack? Did the shop repair that one?
Yes they did
Caleb is a good biblical name. For those interested, study his life in the Old Testament as he was an amazing man, full of faith.
Yes he was! God gave him "a different spirit".
Only Caleb and Joshua trusted God when they scouted a city full of nephulim that God wanted them to take.
“Because my servant Caleb has a different spirit and follows me wholeheartedly, I will bring him into the land he went to, and his descendants will inherit it”
Came to realize his father Paul is a God fearing man. You can tell even by the massive knowledge he has
I have these same codes i put a pressure gauge to check fuel pressure its 40psi with engine off its 50 psi with engine running and that what it should be i did a vacuum leak check nothing is leaking I'm clueless
what does fuel pressure do during a wide open throttle snap to redline? Does it hold, or drop? Increase is fine, a drop is not DURING the acceleration period
Dude, did you just taste test that anti freeze?!? 😆
bk 2 sensor 2 5.3 Chevy Tahoe just staying at 24.2 at idle and when I raise the rpm to 3000 would that be a vacuum leak ?
What are your codes and what is your fuel trim data?
@@ScannerDanner Bank 2 sensor 1 P0174 system to lean my truck jerk when pulling off but switch smoothly in the 2nd gear i thought it was the 02 sensor change it like 8x Truly Unbeliveble 1 sensor made the jerk go away but it lasted for like 2 wks and died made the truck run horrible could baily make it 1 block dwn the st so i took it back out asap it was a off brand sensor company call Drivestar off Amazon i put a Denso sensor in ther next and the Beef Jerky came back WTF but i notice the jerk started after i change the oil sensor i also put in new intake manifold gaskets and a trottle body and new MAF but come to find out nuthng was wrong wit it
I also have code P3425 could that make it jerk when pulling off from a red light cylinder deactivation solenoid Open ???
if the truck is still at the shop it may not have been driven enough to readjust maybe? I mean the fuel trims
i have a question no body can seem to answer and it's came in twice at my shop now. I'll be honest, i did a lazy diag but it was a fairly easy one. Vehicle stalled out & only cranks, when you spray carb cleaner in the breather it'll start for a sec then die out. you'd automatically think fuel problem correct? turns out after replacing the fuel pump & diagnosing fuel I'm like wait, what if this isn't even a fuel problem. check spark, zero spark. my question is if its getting fuel with no spark, then how on earth does spraying carb cleaner get it to attempt starting. long post but please answer. thanks!!
This is speculation, I haven't seen this problem yet, but wet fuel reduces the resistance of the air gap, a dry cylinder will demand a higher kv from the coil to spark than one that is getting fuel. My thought is that there may be a path in the secondary ignition that has less resistance than the air gap, but adding the carb cleaner reduces the resistance of the air gap below the resistance of the shorted path.
If you can take the same plug out, disable the injector for safety, and ground the plug, crank and no spark, now crank and mist the gap with water. It should be a cool experiment if it works.
16:10 you aint a a mechanic, unless you have tasted possessions antifreeze hahahah
been there before haha
nice. video. amigo. estas. tech. ke. le. enseñe. atu. hijo. good
If you would have graphed the short term fuel trim and long term fuel trim with your O2s on the test drive, you probably would have caught it right there. If you watch the video, when the O2s are rich ltft is maxed and stft reaches around 26. Sure sign the fuel pump is maxed out. That's why the graphs are so great, because you can't look at your scanner under full throttle (unless you want to hit a tree) ;-) .
Did the long crank go away after new pump was installed?
yes it did
@39:40
Thanks Paul .... but unfortunately here in Middle east we don't have an access to your premium channel .
Unfortunately CZcams has placed country restrictions for the paid channels. But there is a way around it using a VPN. Below is a threadI've created a thread on my forum to help. scannerdanner.com/forum/scannerdanner-book-questions-and-discussion/475-access-to-sd-premium-in-non-listed-countries.html Thanks for your interest and I hope you can make it work for you.Paul
great video, I would love to see an autopsy on the old pump
Kids got a great teacher as a father. No one in my family knows jack about mechanical stuff so I've always had to figure it out on my own.
I don't know which one is my fuel pump relay. Thanks, Ford. **BLEEP** :D
paul how much is your ebook if you plz
It's $49.95 and available at www.scannerdanner.com
Thanks!
I was hoping you would show the hold pressure after you shut the key off on the new pump. before it went right to zero
I know, me too! Thats what happens when it is weeks between the good and bad shots. There is one moment with the new pump where the truck isn't running and you can see rest psi around 45 before I start it.
if it was bleeding off, it would have the dreaded "long crank" start-up :)
So how do i fix this code
You just watched a video on one of the causes of this code. Have you verified your fuel pressure?
Nominal fuel level capacity shown as a percentage
Great work again,I totally agree subscribe to scanner danner premium, it will be one of your favourite and most valuable tools in your box.Thanks for sharing this one,Great stuff👍👍
Ford is so lean sensitive smh....all it takes it a loose oil cap or a simple hose and bam the light comes on
Volumetric test, full throttle mass @ 4.2v and calculated load 100. Caps not loose.
Eight bars to ten bars, means you got an updated pump.
candice beebe or 2 of the bars were shorted?
Why not rule out a leaking injector?
Spoke to soon, like you stated, leaking injector run rich.
8400 rpms
Some minor snap-on "hate"
Your problem might be the fuel pressure regulator Blatter might be leaking simple fix
regulator is in the tank and part of the fuel pump assembly
You're crack... I dont hate that scanner Lol I would like to get a snap on... some day..
I have a 03 Lincoln Navigator I hit the gas that is Spartan don't go nowhere
You seemed a bit disappointed with the results, even tho it was a clean fix. If my understanding is correct, the original numbers (8400 rpm/21 amps surge/6.2 amps running, versus the final 6000 rpm/21 amp surge/8 amp running would indicate that the original pump had a pressure issue not a electrical issue, correct? Higher rpm, lower amp running shows little resistance in the actual pumping pressure, where as the new pump indicated higher amps, higher pressure, lower rpm, showing us that the pump was working??? Correct me if I'm wrong! If my train of thought is off. New pump=higher pressure=higher amps=lower rpm?? Basically, the electrical parts were working, but the pump parts were not as effective?? I hope that makes sense.
probably bad regulator and dirty filter not helping
Totally with you on your thought process bro.
ScannerDanner thank you, Sir.
Nice video