Taurus Judge buckshot ammo test: Federal 410 Handgun 000 vs 4 buck in ballistic gel
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- čas přidán 7. 07. 2014
- The Taurus Judge can chamber and shoot .410 shotgun shells. Some of them are great performers, some are terrible performers. In this test, I'm going to try out two types of buckshot for the Judges (with 3" cylinder/chamber): Federal .410 Handgun ammo in two varieties, the 5-pellet 000 buckshot (part #PD413JGE000) and the 9-pellet 4 buckshot (part #PD413JGE4B).
Both of these are 3" cartridges, and I'm using the Raging Judge Magnum as the test gun. There is nothing "raging" about these shotshells, and nothing unique about them that would require the Raging Judge; I'm just using the Raging Judge because that's the only .410 revolver I have that has a 3" chamber. These shells will also work in regular Judges that have 3" chambers.
This test is different than most of my ammo tests. In this test, I'm not evaluating the performance of one pull of the trigger; instead I'm loading up the whole cylinder and blasting the living tar out of the gel block with every round as quick as I possibly can. The idea is to simulate what you'd probably do if you were faced with a home invader, and I'm trying to determine just how much damage the Judge can do, with each of these loads.
In this testing, it's obvious that the 000 buck is a far superior load. It literally cut the gel block in half and left over 20 bullets buried deep in the optimal penetration zone (13 to 17.5" deep). The 4 buck, by comparison, largely missed the target and those pellets that did hit, did comparatively very little damage.
In patterning tests, the 000 buckshot delivered a nice tight group of approximately 2.25" from a distance of 7 yards. The 4 buck, on the other hand, spread out to almost 15", meaning that only five of the nine pellets actually landed on the target! Three others were clearly misses, and I never did find where the ninth pellet went -- but only five landed on the target.
Note: I'm not making any claims for these videos other than that these are the results I achieved, in my own testing, from the stated pistol(s). I have no intention to make a blanket endorsement or indictment of any product, only to review and report what I found in a given instance. Obviously it is incumbent upon each individual to conduct their own research and make up their own mind about which defensive ammunition is best for their own purposes, in their own firearms. Also keep in mind that individual firearms can be persnickety; my Judge may feed a particular round consistently whereas your Judge might not work as well with those rounds, so -- please conduct your own testing before trusting any particular ammo.
The standards I use to judge bullet performance are the standards established at the 1987 and 1993 Wound Ballistics Conferences, and subsequently adopted by the FBI. You can read more on these subjects in my blog articles, including:
shootingthebull.net/blog/bulle...
shootingthebull.net/blog/bulle...
shootingthebull.net/blog/more-...
If you like what you see, subscribe to the channel, and also visit the blog at www.shootingthebull.net.
We really need a chronograph comparing the 2-3” and 6.5” judge with an 18” barrel. Please as you can!
This is by far the best ballistic testing channel on youtube I dont know why there arent more subs. You should get sponsorship from someone
Agreed
concur.
You prolly dont give a damn but does anybody know of a method to get back into an instagram account??
I was dumb forgot the login password. I appreciate any help you can give me!
@Bishop Quentin instablaster :)
@Shepherd Angel I really appreciate your reply. I found the site through google and Im trying it out atm.
I see it takes quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
Thanks you've confirmed my suspicion about the 000 buckshot
Miss you brother .... thanks for all the awesome work on the videos.
This 000 round has much less velocity than it's 2.5" sibling (due to the extra pellet), and I'm concerned about possible underpenetration from a snubnose barrel. I would guess that it will still be devastating and average 12+" gel penetration depth based on the results here and the 18+" penetration of the 2.5" 000 shell out of the Public Defender in the STB410 review of that gun. However, some of the pellets may underpenetrate. It's a concern to weigh when choosing between them. More penetration or more pellets. So long as they penetrate beyond the FBI minimum, I'd rather have more pellets myself.
There's is also a 3" four-pellet .40 caliber buckshot NobelSport Law Enforcement load, which just like this Federal is the 3" version of the 2.5" load featured in the previous .410 buckshot test video on this channel. Apparently it's no longer imported into the US. Bigger shot usually means deeper penetration. If I were an ammunition manufacturer or shotgun handloader with access to such projectiles I'd like to try loading a .410 shell will .40+ caliber discs to maximize the efficient use of space. Over the effective range of a rifled .45/.410 barrel, the probably inferior patterning over distance of the discs compared to round pellets likely wouldn't be significant.
A very useful demonstration. I'm always partial to .000 buckshot in my .410, especially for personal defense. Thanks for confirming how effective it actually is.
I love the judge ammo tests! Keep them coming!
Really cool. I instinctively knew the 000 would pattern tighter, but I had no idea how much!
This definitely beats the RIP ammo. I really enjoy these your ammo test videos.
Another great test. It shows buckshot is better for self defense. Very informative. He does good work
Great vid! Some of the best on the web by far! Keep it up!
As always excellent video, really like the videos for the different ammo choices for the Judge series. I have the 3in Mag Judge and the Federal 410 handgun 000 will keep all 5 buck shot in a paper plate size pattern at 60 feet. Your videos really helped me pick an ammo that I can trust to perform consistently, so that I feel safe using it if the need ever arises.
Thanks for this test! Great info for Judge owners.
Very useful, applicable, informative video.
Very interesting test! I have to say I'm quite surprised.
After you aid i'm going to unload them into the gel as fast as i can, 30 and 54 pellets to see how much damage i can do. I thought, i like this guy, keep up the videos.
Great stuff as always.
Every time you post a new vid, my day is made.
Thanks!
Very nice comparison of ammo performance from the Taurus Judge revolver. The 000 did more damage than what I was expecting.
BTW, love the reviews you do.
Now, this was a great video! I like all your work, but this was very interesting..
I know this is an old video but i have to say that the 5 pellet buckshot was really impressive
I dont have a judge but am considering it for a fun gun/nightstand gun and am trying to sort through all if the gun video/forum fuddery that comes along with a firearm of such varying opinion
I often carry a .32 acp as a BUG and having 5 .32 weight projectiles at a similar velocity and a comparable diameter with each trigger pull sounds quite attractive. Basically you are shooting 5 .32 acps with each trigger pull and have a grand total of 25 if needed.
The CNS overload of multiple projectiles at once is how a lot of sub guns like the MP5 came to popularity. Ive always thought a shotgun is as close to a burst from a sub gun as the average gun guy/gal can get and having that multiple projectiles with each trigger pull in a handgun is something to consider.
Great video and enjoyable series. Ive often used it as reference when speaking on behalf of the Taurus Judge as ive never owned one.
REALLY impressive test. It is really making me reconsider the judge as a viable defensive firearm. Thanks!
I thought the judge was a meme before learning about this ammo
the judge's problem is that the most popular models have a short barrel length, so the .410 needs a longer barrel length for decent performance (The model he used in the tests was a raging judge 6.5", but in my opinion something close to 4" should be enough to have a decent performance, obviously always using 000 buck).
@@gamerbg294 I just saw a test with the 2.5 inch barrel that did over 14 inches, that's lethal
really shows the value of choosing the right load. really great vid. makes me want a shotgun.
Agreed! But, I have the 4 buck in my single shot 410, for pests and such. Figured it should work well for that. Got my 12 gauge pump with Hornady Critical Defense 000 buck for home defense. Good review!
Thank You SO much, been waiting to see this comparison in gel.
more to come I hope. possibly one shot (to see the single shot data), then dump the rest.
part of the effects of a dump is that the flesh is still in motion from the energy it is absorbing, you may be catching those air pockets and other wound channels, allowing deeper penetration, and some awesome visuals from the slow motion showing the energy being transferred to the block.
need some shootingthebull410 tshirts with a target on it, JUST so I can take it to the range and properly ventilate it for summer use.
(got me some zombie target shirts, had fun putting holes in them) and more fun from people asking "what happened to your shirt?"
this is from a 380 here and there, that's a 45, 45, 00 buck, and 454 there, there, there, and there.
possibly putting one of those shirts on the block would give you a good target, AND give you an idea of how dirty the wound channels can be filled with fabric from simple clothing, if at all.
then auction the shirt on ebay, signed and dated with a fabric pen.
might get you a box of ammo. (not everyone can go to the range to ventilate their clothing properly).
Your videos Sold me on a Public Defender. Not only do I feel safer moving from NYC to the southwest all alone, but it is also something to talk about when sensible, like minded people pass by. I am new to firearms and I like the way you present your videos. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us.
Get some other opinions from professional firearm trainers before you decide on a Judge for your only self defense weapon.
great video bud. that thing is a monster... I'm a huge fan of the .357 magnum S & W 686 +P (7 shot revolver) for home defense... but you can't deny the evidence in front of us.... I'm getting one
000. The rifling is the reason it holds tight with triple. And is the reason why 4 buck doesn't. The 000 is the same diameter as the bore or close enough that it spins. Because they are stacked one behind the other it actually stabilized the pellets much like a rifle does.
No joke indeed! Federal 000 is an awesome home defense option. I have it loaded in my Saiga 410 😮
Would be interesting to see a "short barrel" test of the OOO Buck, I carry that in my Bond Arms derringer.
1:20 on the vid.....from a raging judge with a NOT short barrel.
Bought a case of # 4 buck....for my Bond Arms...after watching this It appears I need a case of 3" 000 buck... however....maybe the #4 buck would work well for turkeys rabbits ect. Any ideas or thoughts on that reasoning???
@@johnarmstrong1601 you want #4 birdshot ideally for turkey and rabbits. Not #4 buckshot. I'm sure it would work but not my recommendation
@@johnarmstrong1601 but I'd also recommend becoming a stealth ninja if your local laws allow you to hunt with a derringer
Great vid saved me some money, thank you!
I think Federals 000 is the best and would like to find some 2 1/2” for my Bond Arms.
That 000 buck did some pretty impressive damage. I use the Hornady Critical Defense 410 Triple Defense 2 1/2 shells in my Taurus Publis Defender. They have a 41 Cal. FTX Slug and 2 35 Cal. Round Balls. They are rated at 204 ft-lb at 750ft/sec. I would very much like to see how these Critical Defence rounds compare to the 000 buckshot in comparison using the ballistic gel.
Great video! I’d love to see a video testing the Fed Prem 410 000 3” shell in an 18.5 inch barrel Circuit Judge. That’s my personal set up for HD and am interested in the affects of the longer barrel with this ammo.
I would like to see that Circuit Judge chambered in 454 Casull or 460 S&W
Interesting test, Thanks
New subscriber....love the channel!
I myself have tested the federal 9 pellet #4 buckshot on a 1998 2500 chevy van door penetrated both sides with ease that was from 21 feet away using a mossberg 500 410 18.5" cylinder bore barrel
I think it's a good load for an 18.5" smoothbore. I bought a ton of this stuff before I knew that it wasn't good for handguns, so I've relegated it to use with my smoothbore .410 and I'm happy with it there.
I was wondering could you do these test again using a 410 shotgun
At some point I'll try to. It's not high on my priority list as I have a ton of other tests to get through first, but I would like to test how much one "gives up" by using the pistol instead of the full 18.5" barrel smoothbore shotgun, so yes I'll be doing a test on this stuff someday...
I know this is a old section: The 3 inch #4 buckshot, federal handgun load is awesome in a smooth bore .410 shotgun. Lots laugh at the idea or don't have a issue with. I look at it like a much smaller version of a 12 gauge using 9 pellets of 00 buck. ( 9 pellets of #4 buck).
Come back to us Shooting the Bull you are needed again. We need a hero.
Very well done
Another awesome video!
Thanks!! Check out my channel :)
G20 in 10mm
I have shot the PDX 1 and was less than impressed. the BBs went every where. the defense discs tracked well out to 15 yards.
Great video and this is exactly why I have a S&W Governor loaded with the 2 3/4" 4 pellet version of federal copper plated 000 buck. I get 24 projectiles with my cylinder dump. This is why people should think for themselves and actually research before they follow the masses and regurgitate untrue statements such as "the 410 out of a revolver is a poor self defense weapon" it's exactly the opposite when you choose the proper loads. Mick!
That's my viewpoint, yes -- you have to see it tested to know whether it's valid or not. Interestingly, the Federal 000 penetrates just as well from the 2.5" shell. There's one less pellet, but they actually travel faster and penetrate just as well. I keep that same load (Fed 000 2.5") in my 2.5"-chamber Public Defender.
I would definitely like to see a .410 slug test out of the judge. Great videos btw
footba11fan41ife Its called .45 Colt
I'd like to see a test of the PDX-1 410 round in the Judge and Public Defender.
This thing is a godamn portable shotgun, holy shit.
Would you consider using a Bond arms derringer both 45 long colt and the 000 buck shot? This would be very interesting to see this in ballistics gel!
I had good tight patterning with that federal #4 buckshot through the my circuit judge using that choke that it comes with.
Agreed -- from a Circuit Judge, with the straight-rifled choke, it's a much better load. It gets good velocity, good patterning and good penetration. I have reserved the 4 buck for use in my .410 smoothbore and Circuit Judge. I think it's a good load from those. I think the thing that bothers me is that they call it ".410 Handgun", because it's not really good for handguns, but it does well from long-barrel guns (if you use the straight choke on the CJ).
GOOD VID!!! Would like to see you do one on 45 HST acp 230 grain standard pressure. My wife and I carry the 9mm HST standard 124gr because of your video. She has the G26 and I the SCCY cpx2. One of our house guns is a 45 acp. THANKS FOR WHAT U DO
man what a difference between the 2, nice vid thx :)
To clarify my previous question yesterday. was asked because the video states the patterning test on paper target was at 7 yards but does not specify on gel test.
Also, do you have at least a guess as to how close to this a 2" barrel Public defender would perform?
great vid
I would love to see some Winchester PDX1 .410 as I'm a bit skeptical of its performance. I trust your channel to provide the best information on this cartridge.
RazorBeast I haven't published a formal test of the PDX1, but I have done some preliminary testing with it. It's decent. The BBs are worthless as far as actually doing damage to the target, and they spread very rapidly. But the discs do well, they penetrate around 10" or so. They're basically pre-flattened buckshot balls. I would definitely not recommend PDX1 .410 for a concealed-carry pistol where there's a chance you might have to fire in public, as those dozen BBs are going to create a potential legal liability issue since you are legally responsible for every projectile that leaves the barrel of your firearm. However, for home defense they may make more sense, as the BBs will create a wide dispersion that, even if the main discs don't hit the target, at least a few of the BBs might, and maybe the sting of the BBs would slow down the attacker or get him to re-evaluate his plans -- perhaps long enough for you to get on-target with the second shot... maybe. Generally, I'd highly recommend Federal 000 buckshot instead of PDX1. The BBs-in-a-home-defense-situation argument is the only reason I would think you'd perhaps prefer maybe the first round of your home-defense Judge to be a PDX1...
PDX1 in .45 Colt is a whole different story -- that's a great bullet.
This is pretty much what I expected from their .410. Thanks for the detailed reply and keep up the good work!
+RazorBeast Don't waste money on it. Stick exclusively with the fed 000 which is the best by a landslide.
@@ShootingTheBull410 Do you think the Winchester 3" 000 would preform about the same? They are not copper plated.
Come back ShootingTheBull410 we need you.
You should do the same test with the 3" judge to see what difference there is.
Reed Richter He shot the block with 3 inch shells. 2 1/2 only has 4 pellets, and the box is shown in the frame, right after the shots
When the Judge first came out, I thought "This is a joke, who would even consider a 410 handgun for self-defense". My thinking is totally shifted after seeing your test of 410 000 buck. That is some seriously devastating handgun ammo. This ammo, along with the Lehigh 220gr 45 Colt make these 45/410 revolvers handguns capable of equalling or even exceeding the legendary "one-shot stop" capability of the 125 gr .357 Mag ammo!
+63DW89A At the cost of a very bulky gun and very low capacity, though. You don't need a lot of shots in a woods defense gun, but if I was going into combat, I'd take my 17-shot .357 SIG any day of the week.
+Synchronizor For combat operations, I would agree. However, for citizen self-defense, we do not have the large logistics support, and fire support of a combat unit behind us. Instead, we are usually alone. Meaning your self-defense weapon had better work NOW or you may not survive. From that "lone citizen" perspective, the extremely reliable, one-shot devastating ability of the 45Colt/410 revolvers may well trump "firepower". Your 17-shot 357 Sig is an excellent choice, no argument. However, I would suggest that viewing citizen self-defense in the same light as military combat needs could be a major, as well as fatal, mistake.
63DW89A Sorry in advance if you're not up for a big wall of text, but considering that you actually responded politely and coherently to my challenging your opinions about defensive handguns, I figure you might be up for a reasonable discussion on the subject.
By combat, I didn't necessarily mean military or LE, but just a gun-versus-gun confrontation. I know things like gun vs. gang or gun vs. rapist with a bat are also likely scenarios for a civilian concealed-carrier, but I prefer to plan for the worst case.
The right .410 buckshot load will certainly do a fair bit of damage, but I'm not sure I'd go so far as "one-shot devastation". There'll arguably be some added saturation shock with the simultaneous hits, but as far as guaranteed deep damage goes, a 000B .410 load from a pistol barrel is basically the equivalent of an equal number of hits from something like a .32 ACP shooting ball. And - at least from what I've been able to find - neither has much real-world data supporting a high probability of a stop per hit, unlike the .357 Magnum and SIG, which are both extremely street-proven.
There's also the matter of patterns with the .410. For any half-decent handgun in a popular SD cartridge, shot placement is essentially left up to the shooter's abilities. Yes, a fast & sloppy shot at close range is the most likely scenario, but there are also situations where the good guy with the gun stopped the bad guy with a gun with an aimed shot from longer ranges. Something like a 9mm, .357, or .45 can handle either situation, while a .410 is a close-range-only proposition even with a good load. And despite the common belief, a .410's multiple projectiles obviously do not increase the likelihood of a good central hit, even at close ranges.
Ballistics aside, as I alluded to earlier, .410 revolvers are some big ol' chunks of metal, considering you only get 5 - 6 shots. Maybe that's not as big a deal for off-body carry in a purse or bag, but I always carry on-body for security and ease of access, and I think that's generally the way to go except in cases where one's wardrobe just doesn't allow it. My full-sized .357 SIG Glock 31 isn't the most concealable thing in the world to start with (though I make it work easily enough with my wardrobe), but it weighs about as much fully-loaded as the "compact" 3" Judges do empty, and it's much slimmer, and an inch and a half shorter.
Even if a .410 buckshot load eventually collects enough real-world data to demonstrate an edge over the .357 SIG (which is at or near the top of the list in that regard), I'd still stick with my Glock or something similar for all the other practical advantages.
+Synchronizor I actually agree with practically everything you say. The point I like to make is there really is no right, wrong, or perfect gun for citizen self-defense. My view is , if the gun works for the shooter, then train with it and use it. Although I am not a professional firearms trainer, by request, I have trained a lot of shooters, at least in the initial phases of self-defense handgunning. I always urge them to move on to more professional and complete training after working with me! I think I've actually learned more from the people I've trained than they ever got from me. I used to start folks with a 1911, but gradually learned to allow the new shooters to try many different pistols and revolvers before settling on a weapon that fits them best. In recent years, I have seen a big return to revolvers over auto pistols, for very good reasons. And here is why. I could hand your 357 SIg or my Colt Commander to 100 shooters and even with training, either auto pistol will fail continuously for about 10 of those shooters, and fail randomly for roughly 15 more, but work perfectly with minimal stoppages for the other 75. I could hand my S&W 625 or 66 to all 100 shooters, and ether revolver would work perfectly for all 100 shooters. This is not saying that revolvers are better, but simply acknowledging the reality that auto pistols are prone to shooter-induced failures and revolvers are not. Training will eliminate shooter-induced failures for most cases, but not in all cases, because some folks have physical problems that must be dealt with practically. The reason I have come to like the 45Colt/410 revolvers is that such revolvers are practical and versatile beyond belief to many challenged shooters, being very easy and intuitive to use, plus having the ability to unleash deadly, devastating single hits, via 410 000 buckshot, 45 Colt full-wadcutters, Lehigh defense rounds, etc. My own tests show these 410/45 Colt defense rounds to be much more destructive than practically any 9/40/45 JHP around. So while I think you are well armed, and likely very competent with your 357 SIG, understand that your SIG (or my Commander) will not work well for many shooters As a matter of fact, shot for shot, your 357 SIG, and my Colt Commander 45 ACP are waaay in the back seat in killing power compared to what can be shot from a Taurus Judge or S&W Governor. These big revolvers may not be perfect, but will work perfectly with extreme deadliness, for those that chose to use them.
@@SynchronizorVideos old post, but the multiple projectiles in 000 buck do increase likelihood of hitting multiple vital structures. Why? Because vital structures are compacted extremely tightly. For example the lungs, heart, and liver, and supporting main arteries can be found within a 3 inch spread. Anywhere you move the shot placement on the torso, it's the same thing, the ,"tight" spread acts as a multiplier because of the sheer number of vital structures throughout our anatomy. Thats why guns victims always say "the bullet was a 1/2 inch from my heart etc." Not to mention if the balls trajectory is altered through striking a bone you get even more alternating paths of damage. And the spread is manageable at even 20 yards. 8 inches in diameter at that range.
I only use the PDX1. Works every time and makes a really large hole per trigger pull.
I got the hornaday critical defense! Its nice!
If you could do a Judge gel test on Golden/Silver Bear Sabots, I'd appreciate it.
I plan on using the 410 Fed Premium 000 5 pellet shells in my Circuit Judge with an 18 1/2 barrel for home defense. What is your opinion on how the ballistics would be effected by a much longer barrel with these shells?
enjoy your videos! I was wondering if you could do a ballistic gel test comparing different types of 22mag ammunition and the effectiveness of a 22mag round. With the popularity of the keltec pmr 30 & its high mag capacity I continuously hear it being used as a conceal carry weapon but I have my doubts to its stopping power.
I have done a few .22 Magnum tests from a North American Arms Black Widow. I may be doing more, or I may do some from a different gun. With .22 Magnum, it's really very dependent on barrel length; .22 Magnum really benefits from longer barrels. From a 2"-barrel revolver, the rounds are traveling somewhere around 1,000 fps; from an 18" rifle those same bullets will likely be traveling more like 2,000 fps. That's a difference in kinetic energy from 88 ft/lbs from the short barrel, to 355 ft/lbs from the rifle. So it really, really make a difference what type of gun you're firing .22 Magnum from.
It can be a potent round, and the PMR30 has high capacity, but there's another concern, which is that .22 Magnum is a rimfire round, and rimfire is generally thought to be less reliable than centerfire. I don't know that a PMR30 would be my first choice for self defense because of that, but I have no doubt that the proper ammo (such as the Gold Dots) fired from that 4.3" barrel probably penetrate deeply and expand nicely, for a .22. But it's still a very small bullet to begin with; consider that a 147-grain 9mm has nearly 4x as much metal in it than a 40-grain .22 Magnum, and will make a bigger hole. But the PMR30 will likely be a softer shooter and will definitely allow greater capacity.
I am always an advocate of carrying the most powerful weapon that you can shoot reliably and accurately. If the PMR30 is all you can handle, then it might be the right choice for you. But if you can carry a bigger weapon with bigger more powerful bullets, and you can shoot it well, then -- why not go for the bigger, more powerful option?
Just rewatched this. Watch the 6th shot carefully in the slow mo! Watch the pellets. One of the deformed pellets bounces back and forth between the blocks, exits out the crack between, and then slow mo flies back to the left. :-D
I have enjoyed and shared your 9mm short barrel tests quite a bit. I carry a S&W Governor for walks in the swamps locally. It seems to me, perhaps, you don't get the point of these firearms. Or maybe I don't.
I carry with 2 #8 field shot loads for snakes. 2 00 for wild dogs or such. And 2 overloaded 45 Long Colt in 255gr SWCHP for anything I might deem a threat when I move past it.
Might the application be for a home defense situation with an intruder inside your home? Personally, I don't have that many rooms in my house where another person would be 7 yards away from me. If he's in the same room as me, he's probably going to be 4, or 3, or maybe 2 yards away from me. I would love to a see a test of the other ammunition at those distances.
I wonder if Federal used preflatened 000 buckshot if it wouldn't perform better, in that one or two more pellets could be loaded in 3" shells.
I wonder how the #4 buck would do out of an 18"+ barrel
Please try Winchester super X buckshot 000 buck 3" 5 pellet & 2 1/2" 3 pellet lead shot you wan't believe what happens. The first 2 hit as round balls and tear though and the last 3 get heated in the barrel then come out shaped like hole cutters (nasty!!!) I would love to see them hit ballistics gel it would make a cool video.
It would be interesting to see this test redone using a smooth bore shotgun
Thinking the same. 000 buck pellets are in line with individual pellets semi-stabilized by pistol rifling, while smaller #4 are scattered by the spin like birdshot would be. Smoothbore should yield results for 000 similar to those from judge, while #4 should group much better.
I'm disappointed you didn't list a velocity from the Raging Judge. So hard to get good data from these loads.
great test as usual. sort of wish you had included denim.
i'd love to see a test of hornady's .410 Critical Defense with the .41 caliber FTX hollow point and the 2 pellets of 000 buck behind it
I'll eventually get that test done...
Fwiw my Governor patterns 2" very consistently at 7 yards, and very little spread difference (negligable) all the way to 15 yards. Maybe 3" at 15, and it does it with a much shorter barrel. I have tested it side by side with a couple longer barrel judges and there is no comparison in patterning. The Governor is just much better at it, at least the one I have is...I haven't tried any others. Mick!
The longer the barrel, the more birdshot will spread, in my testing. My 2" barrel throws much tighter patterns than my 6.5". Same with regular buckshot, but with the Federal they both pattern at about 2" at 7 yards.
Yep, as soon as I saw the #4 target, I thought "Of course, it's a rifled barrel!". I'm guessing the weight of the 000 pellets kept them from spinning out like the #4. Would the results be the same or even more exaggerated with birdshot?
The overall spin and spread is a lot worse with birdshot. The longer the barrel, the faster the spin; with the Raging Judge it'll cover that target from just six feet!
As for why the 000 spread less, it's not really about the weight of the pellets, it's really the design of the Federal cartridge and its "FliteControl" wad. I've tested a ton of different 000 buckshot loads from the Judge, and some spread really fast (especially Remington Ultimate Home Defense) and the Federal stays tighter than any of them. The 000 stays in a perfectly stacked column in the shot cup, and is basically immune to the spin of the rifling. In other 000 loads, the balls stack up on each other a little, and are spun by the rifling.
Nobel .40-cal buck also holds a really tight pattern. Both it and the Federal 000 were designed for use in the short rifled barrels, and they perform really really well.
That's really the thing about the Judge. With the right ammo, it can be really impressive. With the wrong ammo, it can be surprisingly pathetic. It's all about ammo choice with the Judge.
ShootingTheBull410 Let me correct what I said -- it's not that the shot spins faster in the longer barrel. The RATE of spin is the same, regardless of how long the barrel is. I meant to say "The longer the barrel, the faster the spread." From a 2" barrel, birdshot will spread to cover a human torso-sized target at 10 feet. From the 6.5" barrel, it'll cover that same target at six feet.
It's not that the rate of spin is more, it just appears that the longer the barrel, the more time the column of shot is exposed to the rifling, and the more spin that gets imparted to the overall clump of shot. In the short barrel the outer pellets may get spun but the overall column of shot may not; but the longer the clump of shot contacts the rifling, the more the overall column will be affected and will spin, and the results are that the longer barrel spreads the shot a lot faster.
ShootingTheBull410 Gotcha, makes sense. I wouldn't have guessed a different wad design could prevent/mitigate the effects of rifling.
One of your most fun videos yet. Not surprising. #4 Buck needs to be going somewhere between 1350 FPS and 1400 to get optimal FBI penetration. I haven't seen that any of the judge oriented loads will achieve that velocity.
From an 18" smoothbore barrel the #4 buck might be quite satisfactory, but from the short barrels there's no way.
The 000 and .40-cal Nobel buckshot travels in the range of 800-900 fps or so, and they penetrate excellently.
Do you prefer the same load for the more compact judges?
Federal 000 is what's in my Public Defender right now. It performs surprisingly good. I also really like the Nobel .40-cal buck, but Federal gives you one more pellet and so it became my favorite load for the Public Defender in its 2.5" chamber. I use the Nobel and Federal 000 pretty much interchangeably in the Circuit Judge and RJM.
Thanks. I am sure I watched your vids on that, but I wanted to keep my recollection fresh. I think it would be a great woods and trail gun in my area where you have cougars, coyotes and rattlers, and a remote chance of black bear. A shot of two of #9 birdshot for the snakes, and the rest loaded like this with a 45 colt for your last shot just seems well suited to meet any likely encounter.
Side track. Obviously you are a fan of the judge. What about the S&W governor line? (I just like the notion of S&W knocking off a Taurus revolver. Can you imagine how absurd that would have sounded 20 years ago?)
GunFun ZS I really like the Governor. It's got a lot of advantages over the Taurus, including the sixth shot in the cylinder, the ability to chamber .45 ACP, the night sights, and it feels really good in the hand. It's expensive compared to the Taurus, but that's the case with most anything, isn't it? I would definitely get a Governor over a 2.5"-chamber, 3"-cylinder Judge.
A Governor is on my list of guns to get when I've got too much money and looking for something to spend it on...
If all I had was the #4 buckshot .410 for HD, I think I'd invest in a couple of speed loaders of .454 Casull, or .45 LC. The 000 buck did fantastic, though.
What about a (454 casull/45LC/410) Judge , can you get 000 Buckshot with 454 Casull power load?
Basically thirty 9mm to the gel. Of course it's destroyed
At the moment I keep my Judge loaded with Winchester Super-X 3" shells that shoot five 000 buckshot pellets per shell. I chose that one because it's my home defense gun and I found its pattern is wider than the Federal 000 Buckshot (which reduces the chances of missing the target).
Is there any chance you could test that kind of round? Maybe even compare it Federal Handgun 000? Great video by the way!
I have shot the Super-X, and it definitely does pattern wider than the Federal. It's still a lot of lead in five wound channels; in short range defensive use I'm sure it'd be a highly effective round.
Thanks for the excellent video, Bull. Please however clarify this:
At what distance were you firing into the gel? Without this info it is impossible to judge the results, or compare it to a normal 9mm round.
000.. THE JUDGE RULES.. Don't leave home w/o it!!
I wonder if a person is a bad shot would the #4 be better as the shot pattern is so wide giving you more of a chance to hit? Consider also if you are shooting down a hall and how 1 or multiple attackers would change the scenario. I welcome any thought from anyone.
no..practice more
I shoot fine with my weapons thanks, its a hypothetical.
What is the barrel length of the pistol? I'd imagine these results would be much different with the snub nose judges people normally use for self defense. This test was awesome with the Raging Judge, but with that long barrel I'd expect that's what gave more velocity and penetration to the rounds.
The Raging Judge's barrel is 6.5". The shorter barrel pistols like the 2" Public Defender penetrate just as deep, but throws one less bullet per shell. The 3" shell has 5 bullets and is rated at 775 fps; the 2.5" shell (which is the only one the Public Defender can use) has 4 bullets and is rated at 850 fps. I'm sure the rated barrel was probably 3", so you can expect a little slower from the Public Defender, but it will probably net out to being on par to what the 3" shell would do with five bullets.
I've tested the Federal 410 Handgun 2.5" shell from the Public Defender, and it does penetrate very comparably to how the 3" shell did from the RJM, just with one bullet fewer per shell. But that'll add up, of course; the RJM had a potential of 30 bullets in a full cylinder (6 chambers x 5 bullets) but the Public Defender has a maximum capacity of 20 bullets (5 chambers x 4 bullets) so even if the bullets did penetrate as deeply, there will be 1/3 fewer bullets, and therefore you can expect less destruction.
ShootingTheBull410 Sounds good, thanks for these awesome tests!
Distance really drained the gas out of the #4 buck, I'm ordering a case of 000 buck!
How would the 2 1/2 000 buckshot compar to 3 inch???
That #4 may as well have been .22lr
Nice.
10 1/2 inches of utter destruction... Sounds like the title to po... nevermind... Sexual puns aside. Great video!
that 4 buck patterns very tight in a shotgun with full choke
Now, if someone would flatten the 000 pellets slightly into cylinders, so the .410 3" shell could hold 6-7 pellets, that would be even better.
Not a bad idea, but velocity will be reduced. Perhaps not enough to matter from the Raging Judge, but the velocity is low enough already in this 5x000 load that I worry about underpenetration from a snubnose barrel. I suggest basing the round's pellets on larger buckshot sizes, like 0000 or even larger .40 buckshot like the NobelSport Law Enforcement round featured in ShootingTheBull410's other .410 buckshot review (the shotgun part of the Taurus Public Defender review). Going from .36 to .40 caliber can provide some more penetration at the same velocity and make the most efficient use of the shell capacity. Flattened, disc-shaped, or cylindrical projectiles will enable more pellet mass or more powder (or both). It would probably be the ideal .410 defensive round.
I also expect cylindrical or disc-shaped projectiles to be less accurate in flight than balls, but that shouldn't matter at these distances and rounds using such projectiles are already in wide use (such as wadcutters and rounds firing multiple stacked disc-shaped projectiles).
would you recommend Federal .410 000 3 inch?
I like Remington HD 1250 fps, 4 pellets for my Rossi shotgun.
FBI standard is 12 to 18 inches of pen. So the round is adequate for self defense at the range demonstrated. That being said there are other considerations such as what pistol you are using what is the likely scenario etcetera etc etc, do your due diligence
The federal 4 shot handgun jammed up my judge.
if you ever do this again, do it with a few layers of denim.
the #4 Buck would do best out of a shotgun as per what I've seen, please do a test with the #4 buck out of a shotgun....thanks for posting this though
It absolutely would do better from a smoothbore. In fact, I wish they'd market it as that -- pull the ".410 Handgun" label off of it, and just market it as a general high-quality 4 buckshot load. If it didn't have to contend with the rifling spinning the shot, it'd be a pretty good load. I haven't tested it for its terminal effects, but I've done patterning on it from a Circuit Judge with the straight choke and from a smoothbore .410 shotgun. At 7 yards, it made about a 3" pattern from the smoothbore, and about a 4" pattern from the Circuit Judge. Those are much, much more effective patterns than it delivers from the handgun.
I agree 100% sir.
I know nothing about guns but want a gun that will stop an intruder not kill him. Am I on the right direction here with these buckshot bullets for a handgun? Do I need to buy a certain type of gun to use buckshot bullets?
No, you have misconception. Guns including those that fire buckshot can kill a human. Very weak rounds have killed humans. If you don't intend on using lethal force, you should not shoot a gun at a human. But using less than lethal force means the attacker might kill you. Make your choice, do you wish to use lethal force against attacker that would kill or rape you or family? If yes, use a gun with proper ammo for defense. If no, don't use a gun but realize you are then willing to let the attacker have his way with your or family, you are willing to risk defeat and failing in protecting yourself and your loved ones. The world is a cruel place.
Looks like half your #4 went over/ate the top of your block. But what do I know?
I don't know anyone who will stand in place and let me shoot him 6 times with #4 buck or any other round. He will be trying to attack me or diving for cover. I want my shots to cover a wide range I would think. I love your videos but everyone assumes a standing still target. Can you do one moves so we see how many #4 buck hits vs 000 buck hits a moving target?
how long was barrel?
I wonder how much penetration & energy would be lost in the .410 "carry" revolvers that have very short barrels.
just call them snub nosed
Probably not much difference. Obviously, bullets engage rifling (almost creating a seal), build pressure, impart spin, and increase velocity and energy the longer they're engaging that rifling and gas pressure is building up. Shot doesn't do that; its velocity is dependent almost solely on its powder charge. Some pressure does build up, but plenty escapes because the projectiles aren't the same diameter as the bore; they're smaller. Longer barrels DO keep the patterns tighter, though, which probably helps retain a little velocity because individual shot loses velocity as they separate and spread out. But the difference between 3" and 6" barrels is probably insignificant with that 000 buckshot; it wouldn't be anything like the velocity loss you might see from typical handgun rounds that engage rifling. The .45 Colt rounds that are shot out of Judges would lose some noticeable velocity from a 6" barrel to the 3" though.
There's always a trade-off; I prefer the portability of the 3" Judge compared to the 6". If you've ever held a Judge you know it's an enormous gun, even in its most compact forms; really kind of startling the first time I handled one in a gun store... I literally started laughing it was so big. But it is the perfect nightstand gun and traveling companion to ride shotgun in the passenger seat (pardon the pun). Mine rides with me whenever I travel, loaded with those same Federal 3" 000 handgun rounds. Pretty tough to beat the effects of those rounds. If you think about it, while each ball doesn't weigh as much as a typical .38 Special bullet, there are still 5 of them the same diameter as a .38 Special (.36 for the 000 and .357 for the .38 Special) impacting the target at .38 Special velocities almost simultaneously every time you pull the trigger; and the total weight of those projectiles in each round is 315 grains, or about the same as 2 158 grain .38 Special rounds. Devastating stuff for sure.
In conclusion, size matters.