Volkswagen ID.3 loses 10% battery capacity after only 30,000 miles
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- čas přidán 11. 12. 2023
- Volkswagen ID.3 loses 10% battery capacity after only 30,000 miles
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When we consider the time and range a battery will last in a passenger car, we can keep in mind that the truck manufacturer Scania demands 1.5 million km for the batteries they buy to their (future) trucks. The battery manufacturer Swedish Northvolt has said "it's no problem" (already today)!
Many batteries in many applications are today programmed to NOT last.
So if we want to blame anyone, we ought to blame the EU commission in Europe, and governments in other countries!
If EU sets warranties for car batteries to 15 years and 500,000 km, the batteries will last that. It's so simple.
This does not say for a start what is the battery chemistry of the vehicle being tested: NMC, NCA or LFP?
For example if the guy is charging up to 100% every day and the battery is NMC or NCA, this is not too surprising. If that's the case he's just ruining his battery with improper use.
And some Tesla drivers have 2-3 pack failures during the first 120 000km. When you have 200+ extremely delicate critical electrochemical parts, failures are always an option.
Your fellow Aussie at “The Electric Life” has some short YTs presenting DATA from BATTERY UNIVERSITY on how to make our Batts last a long, long time. Worth a look. 45-65% is the sweet-spot for most of us. Regards from the U.S. 🙏🏻👋
Bjørn suspected that this car was super charged often, and was charged to 100% freqently.
Saw a interview with Elon Musk where they talked about charging, and from what I remember Elon said that it was the charging over 80% that put mechanical degradation on the battery, cause the electrons needs to find the free space in the battery, that is why its important to lower speed of charging after that (my laptop does the same actually, while my phone stops at 85%)
Personal driving and charging habits will cause variability indeed. If you drive it like you stole it and fast charge often then it goes without saying that the battery pack along with other components are not going to last as long. Some of the people who complain the loudest are often those that not only drove it like they stole it but went so far as to make go-faster modifications putting more stress on the pack than it was designed for. MTBF is considered when performance levels are set based on the average reasonable persons driving habits so when someone drives in an unreasonable manner or makes modifications to override those set limits you get what you asked for.
On top of that we are talking about Volkswagen who now has a history of taking liberties with their software and design to pull off some form of subterfuge along with VW sending their own software team packing so there is that too.
Best!
@@AndrewTSq Yes, I agree! I charge my Samsung S10e to 85% as recommended by the manufacturer.
My Enyaq (same battery) now has 7% degradation, First 30.000 km degradation went fast (5%) Since then it went very slowly.
My Model 3 has lost 9% after 30K miles, that's to be expected with NMA batteries. The loss is not linear, most of it happens in the first year after that the loss rate is much slower maybe 1% per year, that's what I've seen.
I’m down about 10% after 9 years and 210,000 miles .. 2015 ModelS 85D .. also NMA I believe.
This is correct. Viking's video title is as misleading as some of those recall news.
Hey Sam, it's interesting that you've posted this video right now. Just last night I watched a Bjørn Nyland video where he showed the degradation of an ID.3 battery and he highlighted it had dropped at a higher rate than an BMW i3 he'd tested a few weeks earlier. *Update: posted this comment, before you referenced said video.
...methinks Germans are too dumb to copy Chinese battery tech. They obviously are too dumb to buy LFPs...but nobody hinders them to buy a Chinese car, take out the battery and to copy it.
And Sam also watched it. That's why has posted this vlog. Sam just rehashes others posts. Simple 😮
I own an ID3. Nice to see so much ID3 footage😀. But seriously, a sample of one? Really?
My ID.3 has lost 14% for 135 000 km
Do you remember what the degradation was at 30,000?
@@Rizzler420-uh4yd No. I havent checked it untill recently. My car is doing fine. It was all smooth so far - no noticable drops in capacity/range. I think 14% for 135 000 km is acceptable. Not the best, for sure, but still good enough.
Enjoy your ev.
Thank you for your initiative in adopting a Euro EV early in the technology.
@@mazhdrakov May you tell us which battery size your ID3 has and how old it is?
How you use the car would also be interesting.
In China, BYD is giving lifetime warranty for battery and active adaptive suspension for all the models. I think Tesla China also same.
By what lifetime? Are you saying if a young person buys a BYD they can replace batteries for as long as they keep the wheels on?
Yes, if you buy a car for your son which just got his driving license, he can drive until death. There is some basic principle like 30k km per year limit not for commercial use and etc. I think for first owner only but I am not sure. @@robertwhite3503
There has been No BYD with lifetime battery warranty
@@james_l4337 That makes more sense to me. Thank you for checking. There seems to be an increasing amount of non-factual postings
[In China]. Maybe not in UK.@@james_l4337
24,000 km on a 2022 model 3 LR and I’ve lost 3.8% battery according to Tessie, almost entirely 7kw charging and staying between charging guidelines.
Our Model Y LR 2023 has lost 1.3% with just 10,000km
what do you mean? you have only driven 24km with the Model 3 and its lost 3.8% battery? That sounds more like some error in the readings.
24km ????
this sounds like bullsh*t, or you don't know what your are talking about...
24km = 12 miles very approximately. I guess this typo should have been 24k miles.
@@robertwhite3503 or he could have meant 24k km which would be roughtly 15k miles
This is borderline “click bait”
Having looked at this particular video it’s pretty obvious that the BMS has developed a poor calibration whether it’s a fault with the particular car or how it has been changed remains to be determined.
To determine degradation with a poor BMS calibration is utterly pointless. VW’s do suffer possibly more than most in low temperatures.
Dieselgate warranty - forget it and today still court cases in many countries.
Battery degradation warranty at VW - if you are lucky yes but doubt it knowing how they value Customers especially in s few years from now when they face collapsing sales, headcount reduction costs and thus falling profits to reimburse warranty.
Be very careful i would say.
Ford have delayed the launch of their Explorer EV because they are upgrading the battery system of the Vw platform that sharing as it simply isn’t good enough, compliant with regulations of today and that know coming into place soon so Vw does have a big issue with their power source platform. The Ford Explorer will come with a different battery that will comply with the “upcoming European standard for electric vehicles, UN Regulation 100.3/ ECE-R 100.3”, Ford spokesperson Ralph Caba told 24RHEIN. If the new battery standard will require constructional changes of the vehicle remains unclear.
What is more important is the durability after years. I constantly see CZcams videos where people buy used cars and then have total loss (write-off) after a short time because the service centers want over 20k USD for a battery change. I recently saw a video where a man had tons of repair requests from people with Teslas where the vehicles were about 10 years old. That's probably why there is usually only an 8-year manufacturer's warranty on the battery. On average, however, cars have been used for 12 to 14 years to date in Germany
G'day, mate! Just wondering when Australia reverted to using "miles"? How did that even happen? 😮
Sounds like Oz is getting stupid like us Americans.
My 17 volt with 75k about 45k all electric, when new 52 miles electric range. Now about 45 summer and less the 40 in winter! Was able to drive to 13.5kwhs, now its dead in about 11.5-12. There was a software update a while back that seemed to correlate with the reduced range!
Nissan leafs lose up to 100% of their battery capacity.
Many people compare loss of battery charging capacity to loss of engine power in ice vehicles. However, a better comparison would be what percentage of your gas tank capacity you lose. EVs are still in their infancy.
I have an ID3 (from November 2020; so 3 1/2 years old) with the same battery - Im at 54,000 Km (so over 30 K miles) and I havent measured the battery degradation but I am still getting the same range as I did when I first bought it - so I really dont believe this is an issue for everybody
I have a VW ID4 2021. I have lost 20% of my battery after 106,000 miles and only charged to 100% twice and ran to 1% three times. I was charging to only 80% until the last 10,000 miles I have put on since now to charge to 85% often. Will not be buying an VW ID4 due to battery degradation.
Most battery degredation happens during the first year of ownership, not much after that time. So it's not good to make people think that VW is going to lose 10% per year.
Any stats on BYD packs?
This have to be a part of the purchase laws. EU have 250.000 km driving range of a fossile car.
It must be the same with an EV.
Maybe put in a degrade of 10% as the limit too.
Then I understand why I have to repair almost every vital part of my 2011 BMW X3 30d with 252,000 km...
Let's say if I buy parts for 5-6,000 euros, adding the working time to that, I can drive at least another 50,000+ km.
My local VW dealer heavly discounted ID vehicles but as you said they are heavy, battery degredations is faster but VW will sold later after few years very well (local mentality)
you need to talk about his charging habits
It depends how you charge it. Trickle charge it, it lasts a lot longer. Its the technology
We would think so, but studies have shown that this isn't always true for different chemistries. Some don't care much at all, as long as their temperature is regulated.
The first rev of the LG Chem batteries in the Bolt had some problems (20 out of 140,000 Bolts burned), but they are lasting well; a guy in Quebec Canada has 430,000kms on his original Bolt battery, with 5% degridation. I wonder if the slow charging speeds help this.
The N2.2 and N2.2a batteriies have no problems or recalls.
As long as you dont fast charge the battery will last longer.
@@user-jh6vt8vx4v -- Bolts are the slowest-charging evs out there, which I hope makes the battery last longer.
With all due respect to Bjørn, this is a sample size of one. That is not enough to draw conclusions. More evidence is needed.
how did you charge battery? fast charging? charging often to 100%?
I just sold mi id3 with 11% degradation on 29,000km… and VW repeatedly telling me that everything was ok, batteries over 70% are just fine. I’m sorry but won’t be buying a VAG car anymore.
My 2017 BMW i3 @ 94,000 miles has 95% battery life.
I have a 2006 Golf 2.0 TDI. When I bought it new it would do 1000 km on a road trip and 900 km in town. Today nearly 18 years later those figures have not changed regardless of temperature, +40C or -10C. It takes less than 2 minutes to fill from nearly empty and there are servos on every corner in cities and country towns, and also no issues with fuel stops way out in the bush. When EV'S can match that flexibility and capability I will absolutely definitely buy one with glee (but not a Chinese piece of rubbish).
I've seen a picture of a TDI engine swapped into a Subaru STi. They called the thing STDi.
On a serious note, I drive a 2004 bmw e60 with the mighty iron-block m57 engine. It can still do 1200km on a tank of diesel, after 500 000+ km. This adds up to this vehicle being responsible for 104 tonnes of co2, plus probably 10 more tonnes or so during production. That's enough to produce 6-7 large EVs like Tesla S. Or, probably 10+ small EVs like bmw i3.
If those are then driven in a country like Austria where I live, all the electricity comes from renewables, which means that no additional co2 is emitted. Teslas often make it to 500k+ km but even if we assume that each tesla will need a new battery to reach this number, we'd still have 3-4 EVs for the same amount of co2 of one old diesel bimmer.
The math is a bit different if electricity is produced from coal, but even then EVs are responsible for way less co2. And as we all know by now, co2 spikes correlate with extinction events.
I'll be happy to upgrade to an EV soon - even if that means inconvenient road trips in the future.
25% for 80,000km over 10 years for my Nissan leaf. Older chemistry and no cooling. Back then people said it would catch fire or last 3 years. Far as i know the leaf has the lowest fire rate of any ev. And the worst ev fire rate is like what 100 times less than an ice vehicle
TeslaBjörn calculated a degradation of 6.3%. Insideev just chose to make it 10%...
That was also at -7 to -9 and i do wonder whether he would have seen that much had his test been conducted in milder temps 🤔
He Said 6%, with all calculations
My toyota corolla has lost zero battery capacity in160k miles. It uses the best battery chemistry. A 12 volt lead acid battery.
VW is doing well compared to the Uber driver with his Model 3. He got only 110,000 miles and his Model 3 battery died - out of warranty with a $9,000+ bill to have a new one plus installation. Tesla said - Tesla's are not made for that sort of heavy use - say goodby to the Robotaxi idea. The Uber driver was driving 300 miles a day and need to super charge twice a day. Lesson only buy a Tesla if you are retired driving under 30 miles a day and you have a garage to charge it at.
😂I guess that is why Tesla doesnt have v2l orv2g
It’s not concerning for me. Predicting the degradation into the future is a unicorn however. But for what it’s worth, recycling IS the issue. Your degraded battery can become a storage battery instead. Isn’t that fantastic. Who pays for that and what are the out of pocket expenses? The test by Bjorn was 6.3% across 2 vehicles. A press vehicle some time ago and this one. Give an all things being equal that’s probably reasonable (of sorts), but 6.3% is not 10%.
You didn’t say who made the batteries.
Come one......sample size of one and unverified at that!
280km down to 250km range after 5 years on our IONIQ, I consider this ok.
😂That is more than ok.
@@user-jh6vt8vx4v I know and everyone always says the same thing "but what about how much you'll have to pay for a new battery in a few years" 😂 as they fork out thousands per year on servicing and maintenance and fuel for their ICE 😂
Is it called electrify everything or everything electric?
Hello mate
I must warn people to only but BEVs with LFPs or with Sodium-Ion batteries. Lithium-Ion and NCM batteries are outdated shit which suffers from "bleeding out" but also is known to lose all capacity all of a sudden. Here NCMs are even worse than Lithium-Ion.
VW software it has to be cheers mate
Another youtuber Battery life just exited his 3 year lease and also had high degradation on the id3. They dont seem any better than the "infamous" Leaf's decline rate, way to go.
Yes, and this CZcamsr didn't spare his ID3 either. Lots of supercharging, cabin heating on 23°C all the time. After all, it was the main testing subject on his channel. Not representative for the average user.
My Altima gained 5 hp after a tune up. Who is the battery supplier.
What is ther to "tune" on an EV?
@@jimdetry9420 Difference between a gain and a degradation loss was the point.
Hyundai charges 60k to replace the battery? You buy a ev with 300 miles range but can’t use all the battery. So you lose another 20% for safe practices and how much more in extreme cold or hot weather? Ev are useless to most people….
According to data from the U.S. Department of Transportation, 95.1 percent of trips taken in personal vehicles are less than 31 miles; almost 60 percent of all trips are less than 6 miles. In total, the average U.S. driver only covers about 37 miles per day. '
VW arrogance is leading to poor quality. You must be insane buying an ID3/4/5.
Just unbelievable how superior tesla + many chinese makes are now today.
One bright spot is that st least they have EVs while Mazda/Honda cannot even make one by themselves.
Battery degradation should be much better!!!
I think this is why an initial range of 300 miles is so important. 70% of 300 miles is 210 miles. That is still a good EV. But 70% of 210 miles is 147 miles. You can not reasonably do a road trip with 147 miles of range.
So I’m more annoyed at the initial rang of EV’s not the degradation
Most won't do what's advertised anyway from what I've seen.
Maybe under perfect conditions but I've seen plenty of examples where the range is lower than what the purchaser was told.
@@oldbloke204 Plenty of folks in good climates like Australia exceed the rated range - some by a big margin. I have a 2023 Model 3 RWD - it is rated for 272 miles (438km) EPA or 305 miles (491km) WLTP. My lifetime average range is 320miles (514km) and in good weather I am often around 350-360miles (563-579km).
This is a recent screenshot (sorry it's in miles but I took it for a US based forum) i.imgur.com/und4eoG.jpg
The numbers converted are 95.7, 93.8 and 110.6 wh/km respectively or 10.4, 10.7 and 9.0 km per Kwh (I have a 60kwh battery / 57.5 kwh usable)
@oldbloke204
The advertised range is not calculated by the company’s. It calculated by government agencies. EPA, wltp, ect. And they suck at doing that estimate. It should give a summer and winter range. And explain you can’t get that range purely driving on the freeway.
@@ecospider5 If you spend that amount on a new vehicle and don't look into all of that then I guess that it's on you really.
Mind You I think that people who borrow to buy cars are pretty dim anyway but plenty do it.
@oldbloke204
I really encourage my friends to do research on big purchases but so few do. So I have told people I will google for them in real time if they are doing a big purchase. Which a lot have taken me up on. So I’m happy to get them information. It’s to bad they won’t do it for themselves.
But I guess sales people are good at what they do.
Who makes those batteries?
LG Chem
Battery Swapp Tech is the only Solution for Battery Issues. NIO Changan CATL BYD Geely Volvo Polestar SwapNGo Stations Cooperation. Will be World Standard in no Time.
You'll be able to swap out your new battery for an old used one anytime.
@@scottbreseke716 Yess. No Battery Issues. Never.
-16c testing regime with interior set at 23c no heat pump with OBD2 and car scanner app and with no known data of the car new. Also charge of battery worked out through efficiency data rather than taking charge put into the car at charger - these are just some flaws to the testing regime. It is as FUD as it can get. Love him range testing videos but when it comes to scientifically testing degradation - there is only one word describing his methodology - "Shiiit"
NIO💪🏿
The VW dont have a heatpump!
Was a €1,400 option depending on availability
€1200 here in NL
There is degradation even without usage btw
Vw is almost bankrupt...
.due to dieselgate, due to costly bev transition and ID sales disaster, bad quality, management under criminal investigation, far to much employees, and lost the saleswar with Toyota completly....
Although I agree that they have too much employees and wasted a lot of money due to Dieselgate, they will never go bankrupt. The German government is too involved in the company. If they face harsh times, to government will jump in with taxpayer money. To be fair, Volkswagen has nice profits despite all those doomsday messages about them.
@@s.bender7368 ceo VW, few months ago, our roof is on fire...
Ich liebe Volkswagen......Ironie aus
Some bloke produces a dodgy video in extreme weather conditions and you believe it. The problem with your naivety is that it brings all your other videos into question. How about looking for some reasonable evidence before jumping in.
:(
VW and Tesla has the largest degradation. Bjorn Nyland tested a Tesla Model 3 that had been fastcharged alot. it had 15,7% degradation in only 98 000 km.
Terrible cars theese two.
Electric Vehicles, or EVs, Are Not Cars
The government and auto industry wants us to believe that EVs are interchangeable with gas-powered vehicles.
EVs are not a “car” as we know them. EVs are experimental transportation devices that the government wants us to accept as a car replacement.
I believe the rollout of them was extremely premature. They look like cars, and seem to function like cars, but they are not cars.
Words and their traditional definitions matter.
Using the word car for an EV is misleading. I try to avoid it.
EVs are a completely different machine and when purchasing one that should be our mindset.
Replacements For Vital Machines (Evs For Cars) Must Outperform Their Predecessors To Be Universally Adopted
For a new product or invention, which an EV is, to replace a tried and true significant part of our daily lives, like our cars, it has to be a better choice.
Do EVs outperform cars in all important areas?
How should a car replacement be better?
1) Cheaper purchase price, lifetime maintenance and disposal.
2) Better performance, road handling and driving range.
3) As many or more locations to “refuel” and lower recharging times than refueling. Overall more convenient and time saving than gas powered vehicles.
4) Safer in all ways, including charging away from home.
5) Seamless and transparent replacement for our current experience with cars.
6) EVs should be less expensive to insure.
How do EVs stack up in those five categories?
1) EVs are more expensive than gas-powered vehicles. Overall costs over time are much higher for EVs. Even if they were cheaper, the current negative impacts of the loss of convenience and functionality make EVs not worth replacing our cars with experimental replacements. Government subsidies paid to corporations and individuals approach $50,000 per EV. An EV is less functional, yet more expensive? Who thought of this great system?
2) EVs have much higher average horsepower, but other than that the driving experience is not much different and is sometimes deficient. Range anxiety is real and total miles available on a full charge falls terribly behind a full tank of gas.
3) Gas stations are much safer and more convenient than EV charging stations. On the road charging can average ten times longer than refueling with gasoline. EVs fail miserably here.
4) The level of danger using an unmanned EV charging station at night in a deserted parking lot is not tenable, compared to gas stations which have personnel, lights and security cameras. EV battery explosions are commonplace.
5) EVs are not a cheaper, more functional replacement for our cars.
6) A true car replacement would be cheaper to insure. Middle class families already can’t afford car insurance.
EVs fail on almost every measure.
This certainly does not make a great case for EVs.
Using EVs dramatically changes your entire driving experience, one of the most important parts of our daily lives.
There are so many unanswered questions about the impact on us if the government were to ban gas-powered vehicles in favor of EVs.
Mandating EVs will change our way of life.
As with other government experiments in the recent past, they want us to be the test subjects.
I propose we opt out of this government experiment and all others in the future.
Fad For Wealthier People
EVs are still a fad for wealthier people for the most part. Currently they are mostly an option for owners of free standing single family homes and less often owners of townhouses with a garage.
And even for those free standing single family homeowners, once you have more than one EV, it can quickly become impractical, cumbersome and unworkable.
There are government laws forcing apartment complex owners and townhouse communities to allow residents to install charging stations, but they are not widely used.
The vast majority of renters and townhouse owners don’t have the ability to purchase an EV as they can’t charge them nightly.
EVs require access to a power supply that can extend to your EV where they are parked overnight. While away from home needing a charge, you need to find a charging station.
For people who own free standing homes, with a traditional garage and driveway setup, this is relatively simple and most practical. But even then, a family with two or more EVs may not be able to charge all of them overnight. Once you expand beyond one EV, things begin to fall apart.
Many townhouse owners are in the same predicament as apartment renters.
Renters of any type of home usually don’t have the ability or finances to install the systems needed to charge an EV. They would also need permission from the landlord.
Even if an apartment complex or townhouse association installed a few, having this done on mass scale for all apartment and townhouse residents is not practical for decades to come, if at all.
Townhouses, although purchased as a residence, are more likely to be a temporary stop to a free standing home, and so installing a charging station may not be worth the investment.
Excluding these drivers will stall or make impossible the complete replacement of gas-powered vehicles with EVs.
So, what percentage of drivers are in free standing single family homes? This is the true market for EVs on the consumer level. And, again, only for one EV in the family.
Let’s take a look at the figures below.
It will tell us what % of us have severe barriers to entering the EV space.
132,000,000 (A) - USA Households
83,000,000 (B) - Detached single family homes
49,000,000 (C=A -B) - USA Households With Barriers To Entry Into EV Space
37.12% (D=C/A) - % USA Households With Barriers To Entry Into EV Space
233,000,000 (E) - Drivers In The USA
86,000,000 (D×E) - USA Drivers With Barriers To Entry Into EV Space
86,000,000 out of 233,000,000 U.S. drivers cannot practically transition to EV use.
This 37% of drivers who cannot use an EV is important to remember, as it impacts the rest of the problems EV owners face.
Safety Issues At Charging Stations On The Road
Again, remember, we are imagining a world where gasoline is no longer needed and so gas stations would become a novelty.
So, with only EVs in everyday use, there will be times we need to charge away from home. Where will this take place? There is some EV charging infrastructure built out, but there are many problems. And this is with a very small percentage of EVs on the road.
Imagine, again, that only EVs were allowed. The infrastructure needed is unfathomable.
And what is the infrastructure for remote charging going to look like?
I have serious concerns here as should you.
When we need gas, we simply find an open gas station.
Gas stations have security cameras and personnel when they are open.
We take these well lit locations with employees and security cameras for granted. These safety features do not exist at EV charging locations. Most will be in parking lots of retail shopping centers with no attendants.
This decreases security and increases waiting times. That is what they are proposing. We should not accept these severe regressions of course.
Parents, let me ask you. Would you accept your children going into dark and empty parking lots, when retail stores are closed, to charge up for 20 or 30 minutes by themselves with no personnel on site?
Of course you would not.
No security. No one in government is talking about this. Remember, they want to eliminate the safe gas stations that are an integral part of our culture and replace them with this.
This is just another barrier I don’t hear anyone discussing.
EVs are not interchangeable with gas-powered vehicles. They are a completely different machine. They are not cars.
Consumers need to demand the same level of security measures and functionality that gas stations provide.
You like to write a lot of BS don't you Mr. Nutter?
So I can sue the dealership then. I went into my local dealership to buy a car, paid a lot of money and came out driving something that’s not a car. 😂😂😂
Tired and regurgitated copy paste fossil fueled misinformation. Flagged
Who the hell writes a novel in a CZcams reply. Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, much ?
There are pros and cons to electric vehicles, battery powered lawnmowers, drills, vacuums. Consumers make the decision that fits their particular needs. If you have 10 acres to mow, don't buy a battery powered lawnmower. If you have 300ft driveway, don't buy a battery powered snow blower. If you don't have a garage where you can charge your car, and you're driving 100+ miles everyday, don't buy an electric car. It's not rocket science. Why are you so emotionally attached thinking that anyone want to read novel on youtube to hear your opinion.
@@brutus6574 Just fossil fueled propaganda - they are scared shirtless because EVs are eating their lunch big time, especially the small stuff like scooters and ebikes that eliminate shopping and commuting runs.
If you can save $4000 year by not using your fossil car as much (or at all) because you finally have an alternative, then that's money not going into these nonces pockets and their cling-ons such this troll.